Discussion:
[Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 17:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.

For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.

The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.

Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.

So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.

Cheers!
Chris H
2013-09-11 18:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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Bryan Peterson
2013-09-11 18:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Well said both of you.



Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Chris H
2013-09-11 18:17:07 UTC
Permalink
I actually laugh at those still on Xp. I'm like why and just give a
gentle hint that it will be no more as of next year and some just don't
care and have an atitude about it.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Well said both of you.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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.
Bryan Peterson
2013-09-11 18:27:34 UTC
Permalink
To be fair upgrading isn't exactly an inexpensive proposition.



Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:17 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

I actually laugh at those still on Xp. I'm like why and just give a
gentle hint that it will be no more as of next year and some just don't
care and have an atitude about it.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Well said both of you.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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.
---
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Charles Rivard
2013-09-11 18:39:29 UTC
Permalink
How do you figure that upgrading is not expensive? Some of us, myself
included, have old machines that still work fine for what we use them for.
Unemployed and on very tight budgets, so cannot afford a newer machine.
Then, there is the cost of the new OS software. Although I do have JAWS 14,
some don't have the money to upgrade to that or to JAWS 15 which will soon
be released. If you need a new SMA from FS, that now costs $160, which I
don't have. I know there are free screen readers available, but they are
not as good as what tons of money has already been spent on. And there is
also the point that a lot of software we have spent money on that, as far as
I know, won't work on, or is troublesome to get working on, the newer OS we
will get. And there is the learning curve to deal with as well. Maybe we
should upgrade, but can we?

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Peterson" <bpeterson2000 at cableone.net>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Bryan Peterson
To be fair upgrading isn't exactly an inexpensive proposition.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:17 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I actually laugh at those still on Xp. I'm like why and just give a
gentle hint that it will be no more as of next year and some just don't
care and have an atitude about it.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Well said both of you.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 20:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

Yes, I fully recognize upgrading is expensive, but if a person sets
aside a little money for Windows upgrades, a new computer, Jaws
updates, etc they would be investing in their own future. I think this
is more an issue of planning ahead rather than trying to come up with
all the money at once.

What you say about free screen readers is untrue though. NVDA 2013.2
is actually superior to Jaws 14 and works much better than Jaws on
Windows 8. I've actually already tested NVDA 2013.2 on Windows 8.1
beta, and it works fine. If someone were willing to throw their old
expensive screen reader away and try something new such as NVDA they
would find that upgrading to Windows 8 or Windows 8.1 is less
expensive right there..

As far as the learning curve that is problematic for some. Probably
more for some rather than others. I am a power user and can sit down
and use anything without much experience with it, and can quickly
adapt to new user interfaces and Windows 8, for instance, didn't throw
me as much as some. However, I have met more than my share of people
who got new computers with Windows 8 on it and didn't know what to do.
So I can see how the learning curve might be a concern for some
people, but there are tutorials etc out there that should help in that
regard. I don't think anything is impossible if someone puts their
minds to it which is really the problem.

I don't think a lot of people really have the motivation or desire to
upgrade, learn something new, so when they get a new operating system
they freeze up and mentally trip out because they don't want to start
over from scratch feeling like a newbie again. Windows 8 of course is
really different from XP, and I can see how the ribbons, tiled
screens, etc are a bit of a shock for some, but its not hard once you
take a little time to figure it out. Its all a matter of sitting down
and taking some time to learn it.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
How do you figure that upgrading is not expensive? Some of us, myself
included, have old machines that still work fine for what we use them for.
Unemployed and on very tight budgets, so cannot afford a newer machine.
Then, there is the cost of the new OS software. Although I do have JAWS 14,
some don't have the money to upgrade to that or to JAWS 15 which will soon
be released. If you need a new SMA from FS, that now costs $160, which I
don't have. I know there are free screen readers available, but they are
not as good as what tons of money has already been spent on. And there is
also the point that a lot of software we have spent money on that, as far as
I know, won't work on, or is troublesome to get working on, the newer OS we
will get. And there is the learning curve to deal with as well. Maybe we
should upgrade, but can we?
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
Darren Duff
2013-09-11 21:14:12 UTC
Permalink
I use NVDA every day now and for me at least it blows jfw out of the water
and more! It does everything I need and want it to do and I don't have to
pay for upgrades or deal with a stupid authorization key system! I started
using it back in June 2012 full time and haven't looked back.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:55 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

Hi Charles,

Yes, I fully recognize upgrading is expensive, but if a person sets aside a
little money for Windows upgrades, a new computer, Jaws updates, etc they
would be investing in their own future. I think this is more an issue of
planning ahead rather than trying to come up with all the money at once.

What you say about free screen readers is untrue though. NVDA 2013.2 is
actually superior to Jaws 14 and works much better than Jaws on Windows 8.
I've actually already tested NVDA 2013.2 on Windows 8.1 beta, and it works
fine. If someone were willing to throw their old expensive screen reader
away and try something new such as NVDA they would find that upgrading to
Windows 8 or Windows 8.1 is less expensive right there..

As far as the learning curve that is problematic for some. Probably more for
some rather than others. I am a power user and can sit down and use anything
without much experience with it, and can quickly adapt to new user
interfaces and Windows 8, for instance, didn't throw me as much as some.
However, I have met more than my share of people who got new computers with
Windows 8 on it and didn't know what to do.
So I can see how the learning curve might be a concern for some people, but
there are tutorials etc out there that should help in that regard. I don't
think anything is impossible if someone puts their minds to it which is
really the problem.

I don't think a lot of people really have the motivation or desire to
upgrade, learn something new, so when they get a new operating system they
freeze up and mentally trip out because they don't want to start over from
scratch feeling like a newbie again. Windows 8 of course is really different
from XP, and I can see how the ribbons, tiled screens, etc are a bit of a
shock for some, but its not hard once you take a little time to figure it
out. Its all a matter of sitting down and taking some time to learn it.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
How do you figure that upgrading is not expensive? Some of us, myself
included, have old machines that still work fine for what we use them for.
Unemployed and on very tight budgets, so cannot afford a newer machine.
Then, there is the cost of the new OS software. Although I do have JAWS 14,
some don't have the money to upgrade to that or to JAWS 15 which will
soon be released. If you need a new SMA from FS, that now costs $160,
which I don't have. I know there are free screen readers available,
but they are not as good as what tons of money has already been spent
on. And there is also the point that a lot of software we have spent
money on that, as far as
I know, won't work on, or is troublesome to get working on, the newer OS we
will get. And there is the learning curve to deal with as well.
Maybe we should upgrade, but can we?
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
shaun everiss
2013-09-11 21:17:52 UTC
Permalink
I aggree darren, sn is used for some games and its support and deal
I got at time of upgrade was quite good.
Sadly if you work jaws is the accepted norm at least in the big companies.
however nvda is sertainly being recognised.
Post by Darren Duff
I use NVDA every day now and for me at least it blows jfw out of the water
and more! It does everything I need and want it to do and I don't have to
pay for upgrades or deal with a stupid authorization key system! I started
using it back in June 2012 full time and haven't looked back.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:55 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Hi Charles,
Yes, I fully recognize upgrading is expensive, but if a person sets aside a
little money for Windows upgrades, a new computer, Jaws updates, etc they
would be investing in their own future. I think this is more an issue of
planning ahead rather than trying to come up with all the money at once.
What you say about free screen readers is untrue though. NVDA 2013.2 is
actually superior to Jaws 14 and works much better than Jaws on Windows 8.
I've actually already tested NVDA 2013.2 on Windows 8.1 beta, and it works
fine. If someone were willing to throw their old expensive screen reader
away and try something new such as NVDA they would find that upgrading to
Windows 8 or Windows 8.1 is less expensive right there..
As far as the learning curve that is problematic for some. Probably more for
some rather than others. I am a power user and can sit down and use anything
without much experience with it, and can quickly adapt to new user
interfaces and Windows 8, for instance, didn't throw me as much as some.
However, I have met more than my share of people who got new computers with
Windows 8 on it and didn't know what to do.
So I can see how the learning curve might be a concern for some people, but
there are tutorials etc out there that should help in that regard. I don't
think anything is impossible if someone puts their minds to it which is
really the problem.
I don't think a lot of people really have the motivation or desire to
upgrade, learn something new, so when they get a new operating system they
freeze up and mentally trip out because they don't want to start over from
scratch feeling like a newbie again. Windows 8 of course is really different
from XP, and I can see how the ribbons, tiled screens, etc are a bit of a
shock for some, but its not hard once you take a little time to figure it
out. Its all a matter of sitting down and taking some time to learn it.
Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
How do you figure that upgrading is not expensive? Some of us, myself
included, have old machines that still work fine for what we use them for.
Unemployed and on very tight budgets, so cannot afford a newer machine.
Then, there is the cost of the new OS software. Although I do have JAWS 14,
some don't have the money to upgrade to that or to JAWS 15 which will
soon be released. If you need a new SMA from FS, that now costs $160,
which I don't have. I know there are free screen readers available,
but they are not as good as what tons of money has already been spent
on. And there is also the point that a lot of software we have spent
money on that, as far as
I know, won't work on, or is troublesome to get working on, the newer OS we
will get. And there is the learning curve to deal with as well.
Maybe we should upgrade, but can we?
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the list,
send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Darren Duff
2013-09-11 22:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Yes I must say that at this time jaws is what I would probably have to use
on the job if I were working. But NVDA keeps getting better and I think
shirtly FS will start seeing some compatission.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:18 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

I aggree darren, sn is used for some games and its support and deal I got
at time of upgrade was quite good.
Sadly if you work jaws is the accepted norm at least in the big companies.
however nvda is sertainly being recognised.
Post by Darren Duff
I use NVDA every day now and for me at least it blows jfw out of the
water and more! It does everything I need and want it to do and I don't
have to pay for upgrades or deal with a stupid authorization key
system! I started using it back in June 2012 full time and haven't looked
back.
Post by Darren Duff
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:55 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Hi Charles,
Yes, I fully recognize upgrading is expensive, but if a person sets
aside a little money for Windows upgrades, a new computer, Jaws
updates, etc they would be investing in their own future. I think this
is more an issue of planning ahead rather than trying to come up with all
the money at once.
Post by Darren Duff
What you say about free screen readers is untrue though. NVDA 2013.2 is
actually superior to Jaws 14 and works much better than Jaws on Windows 8.
I've actually already tested NVDA 2013.2 on Windows 8.1 beta, and it
works fine. If someone were willing to throw their old expensive screen
reader away and try something new such as NVDA they would find that
upgrading to Windows 8 or Windows 8.1 is less expensive right there..
As far as the learning curve that is problematic for some. Probably
more for some rather than others. I am a power user and can sit down
and use anything without much experience with it, and can quickly adapt
to new user interfaces and Windows 8, for instance, didn't throw me as much
as some.
Post by Darren Duff
However, I have met more than my share of people who got new computers
with Windows 8 on it and didn't know what to do.
So I can see how the learning curve might be a concern for some people,
but there are tutorials etc out there that should help in that regard.
I don't think anything is impossible if someone puts their minds to it
which is really the problem.
I don't think a lot of people really have the motivation or desire to
upgrade, learn something new, so when they get a new operating system
they freeze up and mentally trip out because they don't want to start
over from scratch feeling like a newbie again. Windows 8 of course is
really different from XP, and I can see how the ribbons, tiled screens,
etc are a bit of a shock for some, but its not hard once you take a
little time to figure it out. Its all a matter of sitting down and taking
some time to learn it.
Post by Darren Duff
Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
How do you figure that upgrading is not expensive? Some of us,
myself included, have old machines that still work fine for what we use
them for.
Post by Darren Duff
Post by Charles Rivard
Unemployed and on very tight budgets, so cannot afford a newer machine.
Then, there is the cost of the new OS software. Although I do have JAWS 14,
some don't have the money to upgrade to that or to JAWS 15 which
will soon be released. If you need a new SMA from FS, that now
costs $160, which I don't have. I know there are free screen
readers available, but they are not as good as what tons of money
has already been spent on. And there is also the point that a lot
of software we have spent money on that, as far as
I know, won't work on, or is troublesome to get working on, the newer OS we
will get. And there is the learning curve to deal with as well.
Maybe we should upgrade, but can we?
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org If you want to leave the
list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list, please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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shaun everiss
2013-09-11 18:50:45 UTC
Permalink
thats true bryan though its a lot cheaper with nvda.
the base os and system upgrade.
I don't use office else I'd have to probably upgrade that to.
then there are all the hardware drivers and new hardware you need to
support the system if you don't have it.
then there is jaws or other reader I chose to upgrade supernova as my
comercial reader since I had it the longest.
now thats all up about 4-5 grand over 3 years, if you have to do that
all at once well.
My upgrades to 7 will have to last me a conciderable time though as I
doubt I will be upgrading any time soon.
as well as this curcimstances will be changing in family funding
where there will not be any more funds coming in or rather as much as
have been over the past 20 years or so so that does mean that I won't
be upgrading.
Its more than likely that if it happened that things went I'd be
downgrading to something else.
once the issue with the old audiogames going to 7 and working like
they do on xp is sorted I think that may get better.
for whatever reason vms seem to be faster on linux rather than
windows but my laptop only has 4gb ram so maybe I will get a
dedicated server for everything that should be able to handle any and
everything I plan to chuck at it.
my plan essentually is to simply buy a box and put as much power cpu,
ram, sound and video and solid state hardrives as it can carry and run it.
we will see though.
Post by Bryan Peterson
To be fair upgrading isn't exactly an inexpensive proposition.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:17 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I actually laugh at those still on Xp. I'm like why and just give a
gentle hint that it will be no more as of next year and some just don't
care and have an atitude about it.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Well said both of you.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
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shaun everiss
2013-09-11 18:45:06 UTC
Permalink
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
Post by Chris H
I actually laugh at those still on Xp. I'm like why and just give a
gentle hint that it will be no more as of next year and some just
don't care and have an atitude about it.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Well said both of you.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
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Josh
2013-09-11 18:49:23 UTC
Permalink
I have a vinux4 system with xp running inside it in vmware player. I
baught my xp off ebay.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use xp
or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box though
as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite a
lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still use
xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
Post by Chris H
I actually laugh at those still on Xp. I'm like why and just give a
gentle hint that it will be no more as of next year and some just
don't care and have an atitude about it.
Post by Bryan Peterson
Well said both of you.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message----- From: Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 19:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Well, with Windows 8.1 about to come out in a couple of months I'd say
just skip Windows 8 and go to Windows 8.1. I'm glad I didn't spend
much on a Windows 8 upgrade for my Toshiba, because I am looking at
going to Windows 8.1 for my primary Windows box which I use for
Windows software development. I always try to keep that system up to
date.

However, as for running a server with multiple operating systems it
can be done, but you need quite a lot of CPU power and ram to pull it
off effectively. I'd recommend a desktop PC with a 64-bit duel core
processor and at least 4 GB of ram, and even better if you hav say 8
GB or so on that box to play with. Since virtual machines seem to run
better on Linux I'd suggest using Linux as the Host operating system,
and run various flavors of Windows in VMWare Player in order to cut
down the system resources for the host. The only catch 22 is that
Windows 7 and Windows 8 really need direct access to your graphics
card, rather than emulated, so its not as good in that case. However,
it really depends on which OS you will be using most. If Windows 7
were your primary then use it as the host and everything else as guest
operating systems.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
shaun everiss
2013-09-11 20:45:25 UTC
Permalink
yeah 8.1 should be interesting ms is trying to do incrimental
releases rathan full version blowouts every 5 years.
I think thats good.
now lets see if they listen to their customer base.
My vote is to either split the desktop and tablet oses up or have
some sort of interface manager or something.
For example the blind need more sound cues than graphics.
we don't need tiles or metro apps really the desktop ones have served us fine.
we don't need to login with ms accounts, either well home users don't, anyway.
anyway I have always wandered how to use your computer if you have no
net or something like that, if you didn't have a local account you
would be stuck.
I just don't like the idea of logging to your cloud at startup
without a backup local account in case it dies.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Well, with Windows 8.1 about to come out in a couple of months I'd say
just skip Windows 8 and go to Windows 8.1. I'm glad I didn't spend
much on a Windows 8 upgrade for my Toshiba, because I am looking at
going to Windows 8.1 for my primary Windows box which I use for
Windows software development. I always try to keep that system up to
date.
However, as for running a server with multiple operating systems it
can be done, but you need quite a lot of CPU power and ram to pull it
off effectively. I'd recommend a desktop PC with a 64-bit duel core
processor and at least 4 GB of ram, and even better if you hav say 8
GB or so on that box to play with. Since virtual machines seem to run
better on Linux I'd suggest using Linux as the Host operating system,
and run various flavors of Windows in VMWare Player in order to cut
down the system resources for the host. The only catch 22 is that
Windows 7 and Windows 8 really need direct access to your graphics
card, rather than emulated, so its not as good in that case. However,
it really depends on which OS you will be using most. If Windows 7
were your primary then use it as the host and everything else as guest
operating systems.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
---
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http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Charles Rivard
2013-09-11 22:55:17 UTC
Permalink
You're thinking of getting Windows 8.1. Can 8.2 be far behind? If you want
to stay current, here you go again. This might be an exaggerated example,
but the same principle applies. Microsoft has to keep making money, and you
have to give it to them. It's a never ending problem. And who gets more
benefit from it? Microsoft.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Well, with Windows 8.1 about to come out in a couple of months I'd say
just skip Windows 8 and go to Windows 8.1. I'm glad I didn't spend
much on a Windows 8 upgrade for my Toshiba, because I am looking at
going to Windows 8.1 for my primary Windows box which I use for
Windows software development. I always try to keep that system up to
date.
However, as for running a server with multiple operating systems it
can be done, but you need quite a lot of CPU power and ram to pull it
off effectively. I'd recommend a desktop PC with a 64-bit duel core
processor and at least 4 GB of ram, and even better if you hav say 8
GB or so on that box to play with. Since virtual machines seem to run
better on Linux I'd suggest using Linux as the Host operating system,
and run various flavors of Windows in VMWare Player in order to cut
down the system resources for the host. The only catch 22 is that
Windows 7 and Windows 8 really need direct access to your graphics
card, rather than emulated, so its not as good in that case. However,
it really depends on which OS you will be using most. If Windows 7
were your primary then use it as the host and everything else as guest
operating systems.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 23:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

I see your point, but as a matter of fact Windows is not my primary
operating system. I use Linux on most of my computers so for me
upgrading to Windows 8.1 is a small investment because it would only
be for one machine.

However, to answer your question it would depend on how much of a
difference between Windows 8.1 and say this fictional 8.2 would be. If
there were features and updates I could not get in any other way and I
wanted them sure I'd buy it if I had the money. If not I might wait a
year or two to upgrade.

The thing is you are comparing apples and oranges because the
situation of Windows XP and Windows 8 is a totally different
situation. XP is many years behind Windows 8 in terms of features and
components and will no longer be maintained. Upgrading from Windows 8
to Windows 8.1 is a fairly minor upgrade in the scheme of things, and
if there was such a thing as Windows 8.2 it would likely be a minor
upgrade as well. So not upgrading would be less serious than the one
you are in with XP.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
You're thinking of getting Windows 8.1. Can 8.2 be far behind? If you want
to stay current, here you go again. This might be an exaggerated example,
but the same principle applies. Microsoft has to keep making money, and you
have to give it to them. It's a never ending problem. And who gets more
benefit from it? Microsoft.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
Josh
2013-09-12 00:09:07 UTC
Permalink
unless we all switch to ubuntu. I know for a fact google employees use
ubuntu they have their own OS called goobuntu though. So if its good
enough for google, then why isn't it good enough for the rest of us?

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Charles Rivard
You're thinking of getting Windows 8.1. Can 8.2 be far behind? If
you want to stay current, here you go again. This might be an
exaggerated example, but the same principle applies. Microsoft has to
keep making money, and you have to give it to them. It's a never
ending problem. And who gets more benefit from it? Microsoft.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Well, with Windows 8.1 about to come out in a couple of months I'd say
just skip Windows 8 and go to Windows 8.1. I'm glad I didn't spend
much on a Windows 8 upgrade for my Toshiba, because I am looking at
going to Windows 8.1 for my primary Windows box which I use for
Windows software development. I always try to keep that system up to
date.
However, as for running a server with multiple operating systems it
can be done, but you need quite a lot of CPU power and ram to pull it
off effectively. I'd recommend a desktop PC with a 64-bit duel core
processor and at least 4 GB of ram, and even better if you hav say 8
GB or so on that box to play with. Since virtual machines seem to run
better on Linux I'd suggest using Linux as the Host operating system,
and run various flavors of Windows in VMWare Player in order to cut
down the system resources for the host. The only catch 22 is that
Windows 7 and Windows 8 really need direct access to your graphics
card, rather than emulated, so its not as good in that case. However,
it really depends on which OS you will be using most. If Windows 7
were your primary then use it as the host and everything else as guest
operating systems.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 01:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josh,

that would suit me just fine, but I think a lot of people don't want
to change period. Even though Ubuntu 12.04.2 is a great OS, is fairly
accessible using the Orca screen reader, doesn'tcost any money to own,
etc the learning curve is just too much for some people. Ubuntu's
Unity desktop is just as easy as Windows to use, but people don't want
to have to learn how to use it, switch to LibreOffice instead of MS
Office, use Banshee instead of Winamp, have to use Firefox instead of
Internet Explorer, and probably several other personal preferences
that would have to change to use Ubuntu Linux instead of Windows. In
short, the underlying problem is people don't want to.

Cheers!
Post by Josh
unless we all switch to ubuntu. I know for a fact google employees use
ubuntu they have their own OS called goobuntu though. So if its good
enough for google, then why isn't it good enough for the rest of us?
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Cara Quinn
2013-09-12 03:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Charles, this is capitalism! I can't believe I'm hearing this! lol!

this is the economic system we have had in this country since it's inception!

Microsoft is offering a service by providing an OS so you can run your computers. For this they should be paid. As they revise this OS then they should be again paid for their work.

Nothing says they need to support an older product or service. They've already been more than generous and to ask anything more is simply crossing the boundary of reason.

I'm not saying this as any kind of value judgement toward you or anyone else here, this is simply a fact in regard to the way the technology industries across the world relate to our capitalist economic system here in this country. Make sense?

Thanks and great post!

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Charles Rivard <wee1sman at fidnet.com> wrote:

You're thinking of getting Windows 8.1. Can 8.2 be far behind? If you want to stay current, here you go again. This might be an exaggerated example, but the same principle applies. Microsoft has to keep making money, and you have to give it to them. It's a never ending problem. And who gets more benefit from it? Microsoft.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Well, with Windows 8.1 about to come out in a couple of months I'd say
just skip Windows 8 and go to Windows 8.1. I'm glad I didn't spend
much on a Windows 8 upgrade for my Toshiba, because I am looking at
going to Windows 8.1 for my primary Windows box which I use for
Windows software development. I always try to keep that system up to
date.
However, as for running a server with multiple operating systems it
can be done, but you need quite a lot of CPU power and ram to pull it
off effectively. I'd recommend a desktop PC with a 64-bit duel core
processor and at least 4 GB of ram, and even better if you hav say 8
GB or so on that box to play with. Since virtual machines seem to run
better on Linux I'd suggest using Linux as the Host operating system,
and run various flavors of Windows in VMWare Player in order to cut
down the system resources for the host. The only catch 22 is that
Windows 7 and Windows 8 really need direct access to your graphics
card, rather than emulated, so its not as good in that case. However,
it really depends on which OS you will be using most. If Windows 7
were your primary then use it as the host and everything else as guest
operating systems.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Josh
2013-09-12 03:08:51 UTC
Permalink
so linux is not capitalism? people make money off of it, just look at
redhat for instance. and yet linux is free to for desktop users.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Cara Quinn
Charles, this is capitalism! I can't believe I'm hearing this! lol!
this is the economic system we have had in this country since it's inception!
Microsoft is offering a service by providing an OS so you can run your computers. For this they should be paid. As they revise this OS then they should be again paid for their work.
Nothing says they need to support an older product or service. They've already been more than generous and to ask anything more is simply crossing the boundary of reason.
I'm not saying this as any kind of value judgement toward you or anyone else here, this is simply a fact in regard to the way the technology industries across the world relate to our capitalist economic system here in this country. Make sense?
Thanks and great post!
Smiles,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
You're thinking of getting Windows 8.1. Can 8.2 be far behind? If you want to stay current, here you go again. This might be an exaggerated example, but the same principle applies. Microsoft has to keep making money, and you have to give it to them. It's a never ending problem. And who gets more benefit from it? Microsoft.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Well, with Windows 8.1 about to come out in a couple of months I'd say
just skip Windows 8 and go to Windows 8.1. I'm glad I didn't spend
much on a Windows 8 upgrade for my Toshiba, because I am looking at
going to Windows 8.1 for my primary Windows box which I use for
Windows software development. I always try to keep that system up to
date.
However, as for running a server with multiple operating systems it
can be done, but you need quite a lot of CPU power and ram to pull it
off effectively. I'd recommend a desktop PC with a 64-bit duel core
processor and at least 4 GB of ram, and even better if you hav say 8
GB or so on that box to play with. Since virtual machines seem to run
better on Linux I'd suggest using Linux as the Host operating system,
and run various flavors of Windows in VMWare Player in order to cut
down the system resources for the host. The only catch 22 is that
Windows 7 and Windows 8 really need direct access to your graphics
card, rather than emulated, so its not as good in that case. However,
it really depends on which OS you will be using most. If Windows 7
were your primary then use it as the host and everything else as guest
operating systems.
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
well I still use xp for my old games and I will probably always use
xp or have an xp system at least.
win7 though is good and I have a 7 system.
My basic home work for when I am not on the road ie gaming, etc seems
to favor xp over 7 right now but once people like gma upgrade their
stuff that may be behind me.
The real reason I don't really hit 7 unless I need it is because I
still have working xp system with better speakers than my 7 box
though as I said its the older games I mainly play here.
I do use 7 all the time.
sadly though my network admin jobs for most things are 7 and 8 quite
a lot of machines a third of them are still using xp so I also still
use xp daily.
my eventual hope is to get a server with windows on it and maybe have
vms of linux xp and other oses or have them direct though I am not
sure how I'd start one the server then be able to boot different
vertual users but boot direct systems of the other stuff.
either that or have a dedicated gaming box.
the next thing I guess that will have to happen is going to 8 but I
don't need the extra features.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Darren Duff
2013-09-11 18:08:08 UTC
Permalink
7 is really not that bad. I upgraded to 7 last year and I was a hardcor xp
user as well. I like 7 a lot.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Chris H
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:00 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
---
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list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 19:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Chris,

You are welcome. As I also work in the IT field I get a little sick
and tired of the way certain users are so apposed to change they won't
upgrade, won't change, and expect companies like Microsoft to support
their old outdated software indefinitely. I understand their desire
not to change to a point, but sooner or later they need to realize the
fact that when it comes to computers and technology in general change
is inevitable and they might as well get use to it. There isn't
anything they can do about it by refusing to upgrade or sitting around
complaining about it. The only person it hurts is themselves, and
maybe it does them good to tell it to them straight that no one is
going to pitty them for holding out on change.

Cheers!
Post by Chris H
Cheers for the rant. I get sick and tired as an IT amateur of those
persisting with Xp. My belief is they don't like change and that's that.
So cheers once again.
shaun everiss
2013-09-11 18:40:40 UTC
Permalink
tom we really need a faq on the list for coman questions including
coman off topic questions asked so we don't get in a bother with this
sort of stuff.
also what things not to ask, etc.
I am not sure if it would help, it would overt any nastyness that
could appear from time to time.
maybe have the guidelines contain a link to the faq that is put out
every month.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I know this is probably going to sound like a rant, I am not trying to
come off that way, but there are a couple of things I feel needs to be
said. I just don't think certain users think before posting questions
like this to the list. So I'd like to say something about it to help
encourage some thought into the discussion before such questions
arise.
For example, a little while ago James asked how could he use the SAPI
5.5 voices on his XP computer. Well, on the surface it sounds like a
reasonable question, but it actually lacks a little forethought
considering the fact XP is about to be officially dropped by Microsoft
next spring. If this user had thought about the situation through he
would know that Microsoft is cutting back on updates, is preparing to
discontinue service and updates, and aren't going to port something
designed for Windows 8, which is a selling point, back to Windows XP
which is for all intents and purposes about to be discontinued anyway.
There would be no point in Microsoft in doing so.
The reason I am making an issue of this is simply this. The industry
standard for technical support and updates for a piece of software is
between five and ten years. XP users have been extremely lucky in that
Microsoft has continued to extend the support to 2014, but I don't
really see them extending it beyond that point. Windows XP was
originally released in 2001, way beyond the industry standard for
support, and now that Microsoft has officially announced the cut-off
date for XP they have been generous in giving XP users plenty of time
to upgrade to Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, whatever if they choose to.
However, it makes sense for the last year or so of XP's extended
support Microsoft would only release critical updates, patches, and
bug fixes to fill out the last year of support. They certainly aren't
going to put a lot of time and effort into back porting .NET 5.0, SAPI
5.5, DirectX 11, etc to XP since from their point of view XP will be
discontinued anyway and most of those XP users will eventually upgrade
to one of the newer Windows platforms if they want to avail themselves
of the updates to those components. So asking how one might get SAPI
5.5 for XP just really seems to underscore the fact that some XP users
are ignoring the fact that XP is about to be discontinued, and that
there are not going to be any new updates at all for it in the
foreseeable future. Its basically done and we can stick a fork in it.
Now, I know this will not set well with some users because they really
do not like Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows 8. Sorry to say but
that is just too bad, because weather we like it or not a business
can't operate on a 14 year old piece of software. The way companies
like Microsoft works is by selling products. That is new software.
Once a piece of software like XP reaches a maximum number of sales it
begins to lose money because Microsoft has already made their millions
and now have to pay employees a salary to maintain it for several
years after it came onto the market. The way to make more money is to
release a new piece of software that supersedes the old one and yes,
offer features that can't be gotten for the old software. Something
like SAPI 5.5 can be seen as one of those new features of Windows 8,
along with their new Narrator, that is considered an exclusive upgrade
you get by purchasing their new Windows operating system. You want it
you got to pay for it. That's how they make money on their software,
and the people who don't understand this fact can keep looking for
free handouts for XP, but they aren't going to get them because
Microsoft is in it for the money. Since that is the case XP users
really need to recognize that there is no money in XP for them, and
they really need to think about that fact before they ask if such and
such new software from Microsoft is available for XP. Chances are it
won't be.
So the point of this little rant is simply think a little before
asking a question. Realize that if you choose to stay with XP either
because of your financial situation or you simply don't like the newer
alternatives with XP's end of support coming up more and more
developers are going to stop continuing to support that OS and it will
become harder for them to do so. Although, I imagine some developers
here, particularly those using VB 6 may continue supporting XP for
some time to come, in the main just don't look for companies like
Microsoft etc to continue doing so because they have stopped for all
intents and purposes. I don't even know how long I will support XP
myself with my own software, because some components I use and want to
use are not available on XP, and XP users need to realize that their
beloved XP is just too old to run certain newer software.
Cheers!
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dark
2013-09-11 18:43:32 UTC
Permalink
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?

If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why! I
should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).

If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not happened
yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit compatibility,
and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that reason is there.

i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it certainly
hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.

I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a reason
to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now they
haven't been.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Josh
2013-09-11 18:48:41 UTC
Permalink
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you put
windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new components
hard drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available
for xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any
reason to upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a
more irritating interface and less compatibility with a good few
games, and though these components don't work, does anything good
actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason
why! I should use one, something it does better than xp, and no,
having flashy ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a
negative (I still think microsoft should've had the option for an xp
like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games
and such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not
happened yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit
compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that
reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has
been said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are
perfectly good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer
versions of components that most people only use to run other software
aren't! a reason to upgrade if they're not used for anything good,
which up to now they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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shaun everiss
2013-09-11 18:58:22 UTC
Permalink
my issue is the speed of the vms.
I use win7 as my default and I seem to have things slow down a lot.
However I never boosted a 64 bit os on it or extra ram, and I know it
if I use 1 or 2gb of ram in the box for a vm, I did not start with
it in mind origionally else I would have jacked the ram to twice or
even 3 times what I had because there is little room to manuver.
Also when accessing external devices like external drives especially
in vertual xp its really slow.
There is supposed to be a newer vmware 6 now with better support and power.
I think for now that I will just make a share folder and shove the
vms in that well all the stuff I want to share and run it like that.
However I think I may try running my vms on a desktop rather than a
laptop, anyway where I use my 7 laptop for real work I won't have
access to my gaming wrig or external keyboard so maybe I should aim
for a home system as it is.
Post by Josh
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you
put windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new
components hard drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't
available for xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there
really is any reason to upgrade since practically speaking it seems
all I get is a more irritating interface and less compatibility
with a good few games, and though these components don't work, does
anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a
reason why! I should use one, something it does better than xp, and
no, having flashy ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a
negative (I still think microsoft should've had the option for an
xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better
games and such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but
that's not happened yet and I don't really see why i should say
goodbye to 32 bit compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid
interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything
has been said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there
are perfectly good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and
newer versions of components that most people only use to run other
software aren't! a reason to upgrade if they're not used for
anything good, which up to now they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Josh
2013-09-11 19:31:38 UTC
Permalink
I got mine from newegg and the other from blair. they're both laptops
and they runs vms fine.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by shaun everiss
my issue is the speed of the vms.
I use win7 as my default and I seem to have things slow down a lot.
However I never boosted a 64 bit os on it or extra ram, and I know it
if I use 1 or 2gb of ram in the box for a vm, I did not start with it
in mind origionally else I would have jacked the ram to twice or even
3 times what I had because there is little room to manuver.
Also when accessing external devices like external drives especially
in vertual xp its really slow.
There is supposed to be a newer vmware 6 now with better support and power.
I think for now that I will just make a share folder and shove the vms
in that well all the stuff I want to share and run it like that.
However I think I may try running my vms on a desktop rather than a
laptop, anyway where I use my 7 laptop for real work I won't have
access to my gaming wrig or external keyboard so maybe I should aim
for a home system as it is.
Post by Josh
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you put
windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new components
hard drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't
available for xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there
really is any reason to upgrade since practically speaking it seems
all I get is a more irritating interface and less compatibility with
a good few games, and though these components don't work, does
anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a
reason why! I should use one, something it does better than xp, and
no, having flashy ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a
negative (I still think microsoft should've had the option for an xp
like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better
games and such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but
that's not happened yet and I don't really see why i should say
goodbye to 32 bit compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid
interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything
has been said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there
are perfectly good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and
newer versions of components that most people only use to run other
software aren't! a reason to upgrade if they're not used for
anything good, which up to now they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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dark
2013-09-11 19:29:07 UTC
Permalink
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?

I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.

All the best,

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you put
windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new components hard
drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more
irritating interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and
though these components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason
why! I should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having
flashy ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I
still think microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not
happened yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit
compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that
reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has
been said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are
perfectly good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer
versions of components that most people only use to run other software
aren't! a reason to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which
up to now they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Josh
2013-09-11 19:32:37 UTC
Permalink
xp vm's work good on macs just use vmware fusion.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run
an xp vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you put
windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new components
hard drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't
available for xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there
really is any reason to upgrade since practically speaking it seems
all I get is a more irritating interface and less compatibility with
a good few games, and though these components don't work, does
anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a
reason why! I should use one, something it does better than xp, and
no, having flashy ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a
negative (I still think microsoft should've had the option for an xp
like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better
games and such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but
that's not happened yet and I don't really see why i should say
goodbye to 32 bit compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid
interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything
has been said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there
are perfectly good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and
newer versions of components that most people only use to run other
software aren't! a reason to upgrade if they're not used for
anything good, which up to now they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 19:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.

P.S.

FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.

Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
dark
2013-09-11 19:48:19 UTC
Permalink
I'll think about that.

For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).

In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.

The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.

I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).

All the best,

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Christina
2013-09-11 19:52:35 UTC
Permalink
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina


-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

I'll think about that.

For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included

proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).

In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.

The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I

need something that opens office and rtf documents.

I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff

on ios).

All the best,

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
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shaun everiss
2013-09-11 20:41:48 UTC
Permalink
well you can get office for mac.
ofcause its harder to move when all your stuff is in 1 os or another.
all my resources are windows based ones payed and not payed.
so it makes sence for me to stay with some flavour of windows.
Post by Christina
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-11 21:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Office for Mac is not currently accessible. However, the iWork suite is, and there are other ways with which to open office documents.

YOu can access Excel files both with native OSX support as well as using Numbers, which is a part of iWork.

ONe of the easiest ways to work with rtf and Word docs is to simply use TextEdit which comes free with OSX.

Also, PDFs are readily accessible right from within OSX as well.

If all else fails, you can either run Windows using BootCamp or a VM and run MS Office like that. So any way you look at it, Mac is a great platform to use, and I, for one, am extremely grateful to Apple for the amazing level of accessibility!

HTH and have a great day!

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:41 PM, shaun everiss <sm.everiss at gmail.com> wrote:

well you can get office for mac.
ofcause its harder to move when all your stuff is in 1 os or another.
all my resources are windows based ones payed and not payed.
so it makes sence for me to stay with some flavour of windows.
Post by Christina
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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dark
2013-09-11 21:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi kara.

Do you get the same level and access to formatting, references etc?

I have some very important documents written in ms word format that I need
to preserve and print. I have to use that format since that is what the
university uses and while my phd is finished I will be writing articles etc.

Other than that, while I really like the mac access to the os, I'm not
really sure what actual good having one would have over what I have now,
(indeed in terms of media file management I would be concerned that a mac
would be a worse option).

Beware the Grue!

Dark.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cara Quinn" <caraquinn at caraquinn.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Cara Quinn
Office for Mac is not currently accessible. However, the iWork suite is,
and there are other ways with which to open office documents.
YOu can access Excel files both with native OSX support as well as using
Numbers, which is a part of iWork.
ONe of the easiest ways to work with rtf and Word docs is to simply use
TextEdit which comes free with OSX.
Also, PDFs are readily accessible right from within OSX as well.
If all else fails, you can either run Windows using BootCamp or a VM and
run MS Office like that. So any way you look at it, Mac is a great
platform to use, and I, for one, am extremely grateful to Apple for the
amazing level of accessibility!
HTH and have a great day!
Smiles,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
well you can get office for mac.
ofcause its harder to move when all your stuff is in 1 os or another.
all my resources are windows based ones payed and not payed.
so it makes sence for me to stay with some flavour of windows.
Post by Christina
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run
an
xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-11 21:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark, I don't have a copy of Office handy to give you a good answer but I'll do a bit of research and get back with you.

Also, see my other post about audio / media files.

thanks and have a great day!

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:13 PM, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:

Hi kara.

Do you get the same level and access to formatting, references etc?

I have some very important documents written in ms word format that I need to preserve and print. I have to use that format since that is what the university uses and while my phd is finished I will be writing articles etc.

Other than that, while I really like the mac access to the os, I'm not really sure what actual good having one would have over what I have now, (indeed in terms of media file management I would be concerned that a mac would be a worse option).

Beware the Grue!

Dark.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Cara Quinn" <caraquinn at caraquinn.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Cara Quinn
Office for Mac is not currently accessible. However, the iWork suite is, and there are other ways with which to open office documents.
YOu can access Excel files both with native OSX support as well as using Numbers, which is a part of iWork.
ONe of the easiest ways to work with rtf and Word docs is to simply use TextEdit which comes free with OSX.
Also, PDFs are readily accessible right from within OSX as well.
If all else fails, you can either run Windows using BootCamp or a VM and run MS Office like that. So any way you look at it, Mac is a great platform to use, and I, for one, am extremely grateful to Apple for the amazing level of accessibility!
HTH and have a great day!
Smiles,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
well you can get office for mac.
ofcause its harder to move when all your stuff is in 1 os or another.
all my resources are windows based ones payed and not payed.
so it makes sence for me to stay with some flavour of windows.
Post by Christina
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run >> an
xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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Josh
2013-09-11 20:45:44 UTC
Permalink
vinux handles excel documents just fine with orca. and I can even use
eloquence and cepstral voices with it if I wish.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Christina
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
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Christina
2013-09-11 20:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Josh
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:46 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

vinux handles excel documents just fine with orca. and I can even use
eloquence and cepstral voices with it if I wish.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Christina
The inability to access Excel and other Office documents easily is the
reason I haven't seriously considered moving to a Mac as well.
That, and the cost of getting a new computer.
Christina
-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:48 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Post by Christina
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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.
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 20:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Well, as for compatibility we've been over that topic more times than
I can count. So its not really worth the time to explain the fact
there is not enough money or reason for Microsoft to support 16-bit
Dos applications in Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. It sucks,
but its life. You can't realistically expect Microsoft, Apple, or
anyone else to support some old technology or software indefinitely.
Its ridiculous.

Opening Office and rtf documents is no problem. There are several
options for Macc OS in terms of word processors and such. I don't know
where OpenOffice, LibreOffice, and IBM Lotus Symphony are right now in
terms of VoiceOver accessibility right now, but I do know that is
three different office suites available for Mac off the top of my
head. Surely, you will be able to find something that measures up to
Microsoft Office.

As to your last point that is a risk anyone takes when switching to a
new or different OS. There is always the possibility that something
will come out for Windows they want, but won't be available for Mac,
Linux, etc. As Microsoft still holds something like 80% of the market
share that is bound to happen eventually. So it all depends on how
badly you are willing to forgo any new games, office programs, media
players, whatever for Windows and are willing to settle for Mac or
Linux equivalents. In most cases there are some, but not always.

Cheers!
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
shaun everiss
2013-09-11 20:47:56 UTC
Permalink
I don't care for 16 bit support I just want an emulator that will
work maybe like the windows console or something.
16 bit is dead though so basically its linux for that stuff or something.
Its a pitty there is no emulator that will emulate say an old dos
system but behave like a windows console app using your soundcard
instead of other synths and other readers and have everything think
its going through an old slow interface while using the modern resources.
maybe that could be one of the usagames projects.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, as for compatibility we've been over that topic more times than
I can count. So its not really worth the time to explain the fact
there is not enough money or reason for Microsoft to support 16-bit
Dos applications in Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. It sucks,
but its life. You can't realistically expect Microsoft, Apple, or
anyone else to support some old technology or software indefinitely.
Its ridiculous.
Opening Office and rtf documents is no problem. There are several
options for Macc OS in terms of word processors and such. I don't know
where OpenOffice, LibreOffice, and IBM Lotus Symphony are right now in
terms of VoiceOver accessibility right now, but I do know that is
three different office suites available for Mac off the top of my
head. Surely, you will be able to find something that measures up to
Microsoft Office.
As to your last point that is a risk anyone takes when switching to a
new or different OS. There is always the possibility that something
will come out for Windows they want, but won't be available for Mac,
Linux, etc. As Microsoft still holds something like 80% of the market
share that is bound to happen eventually. So it all depends on how
badly you are willing to forgo any new games, office programs, media
players, whatever for Windows and are willing to settle for Mac or
Linux equivalents. In most cases there are some, but not always.
Cheers!
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft
should've included
Post by dark
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the
fact that I
Post by dark
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot
of mac stuff
Post by dark
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
---
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 21:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

Not on your life. I have no desire or particular need to create a
talking Dos emulator. I already have one and it is called Dosemu for
Linux. Creating one for Windows in my case would be redundant.

Besides I'm already creating modern versions of some of my favorite
Dos games like Piledriver and Wrestling League Manager which means I'd
have even less desire to create a Dos emulator for Windows. :D

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
I don't care for 16 bit support I just want an emulator that will
work maybe like the windows console or something.
16 bit is dead though so basically its linux for that stuff or something.
Its a pitty there is no emulator that will emulate say an old dos
system but behave like a windows console app using your soundcard
instead of other synths and other readers and have everything think
its going through an old slow interface while using the modern resources.
maybe that could be one of the usagames projects.
shaun everiss
2013-09-11 21:12:17 UTC
Permalink
true, most game engines are moving to windows and other oses anyway.
richard desteno basically made all his dos games console apps so they
still look like dos programs but are console apps.
Guess we should remember that not every program needs to have a gui
all the time.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Not on your life. I have no desire or particular need to create a
talking Dos emulator. I already have one and it is called Dosemu for
Linux. Creating one for Windows in my case would be redundant.
Besides I'm already creating modern versions of some of my favorite
Dos games like Piledriver and Wrestling League Manager which means I'd
have even less desire to create a Dos emulator for Windows. :D
Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
I don't care for 16 bit support I just want an emulator that will
work maybe like the windows console or something.
16 bit is dead though so basically its linux for that stuff or something.
Its a pitty there is no emulator that will emulate say an old dos
system but behave like a windows console app using your soundcard
instead of other synths and other readers and have everything think
its going through an old slow interface while using the modern resources.
maybe that could be one of the usagames projects.
---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 22:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Shaun,

No, not all programs have to have a GUI. The only thing that matters
if the code has been compiled for the right type of processor and
operating system. I could write a 64-bit console application that runs
on Windows 8 right now if I wanted to, but I think most gamers would
prefer a GUI even if one is not necessary.

Cheers!
Post by shaun everiss
true, most game engines are moving to windows and other oses anyway.
richard desteno basically made all his dos games console apps so they
still look like dos programs but are console apps.
Guess we should remember that not every program needs to have a gui
all the time.
Josh
2013-09-11 21:22:16 UTC
Permalink
I play old dos games 16bit games in windows xp in vmware and it works
very good.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
I don't care for 16 bit support I just want an emulator that will work
maybe like the windows console or something.
16 bit is dead though so basically its linux for that stuff or something.
Its a pitty there is no emulator that will emulate say an old dos
system but behave like a windows console app using your soundcard
instead of other synths and other readers and have everything think
its going through an old slow interface while using the modern resources.
maybe that could be one of the usagames projects.
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, as for compatibility we've been over that topic more times than
I can count. So its not really worth the time to explain the fact
there is not enough money or reason for Microsoft to support 16-bit
Dos applications in Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. It sucks,
but its life. You can't realistically expect Microsoft, Apple, or
anyone else to support some old technology or software indefinitely.
Its ridiculous.
Opening Office and rtf documents is no problem. There are several
options for Macc OS in terms of word processors and such. I don't know
where OpenOffice, LibreOffice, and IBM Lotus Symphony are right now in
terms of VoiceOver accessibility right now, but I do know that is
three different office suites available for Mac off the top of my
head. Surely, you will be able to find something that measures up to
Microsoft Office.
As to your last point that is a risk anyone takes when switching to a
new or different OS. There is always the possibility that something
will come out for Windows they want, but won't be available for Mac,
Linux, etc. As Microsoft still holds something like 80% of the market
share that is bound to happen eventually. So it all depends on how
badly you are willing to forgo any new games, office programs, media
players, whatever for Windows and are willing to settle for Mac or
Linux equivalents. In most cases there are some, but not always.
Cheers!
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've
included
Post by dark
proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they
don't have
Post by dark
the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os,
though
Post by dark
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I
do know
Post by dark
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating
post xp
Post by dark
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file
management
Post by dark
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the
iphone
Post by dark
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the
fact that I
Post by dark
need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on
windows
Post by dark
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of
mac stuff
Post by dark
on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2013-09-11 21:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tom.

the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is
that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world
don't actually matter.

yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live
without older games, but why should I?

Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve, especially
in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included propper backwards
compatibility and interface control that would've been different, but they
haven't).

Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really
cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with
windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder upgrading.

Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were
lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.

Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected
would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons to
upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features that
would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed I can
only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is windows 7
only, (and even that is being fixed).



Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using
xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and
if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new
things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which
is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers
nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you
said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something
flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or
personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more
than enough money to include whatever they like).

so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media
playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do
quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any better
at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback would be
exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite willing to
switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games only
playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as
well.

beware the Grue!

Dark.
shaun everiss
2013-09-11 21:15:57 UTC
Permalink
I aggree dark.
and in some cases while some games have been upgraded to use modern
components, the large majority of them still use old files.
and though for now the majority of them will work some of them that
use old stuff like the gma stuff just don't work right on the newer systems.
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to
get, is that all the hip software upgrades and big number features
in the world don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably
live without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve,
especially in it's lack of personal customization, (had they
included propper backwards compatibility and interface control that
would've been different, but they haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a
really cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and
it comes with windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd
considder upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there
were lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I
expected would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually
good reasons to upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more
interesting features that would be playable only on newer os, but
they haven't appeared, indeed I can only think of one single audio
game, airic the clerric which is windows 7 only, (and even that is
being fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are
using xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a
new os, and if your so bothered about making the best games with
these wondrous new things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system
which is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn
interface, and offers nothing of practical use to the actual
everyday vi user, however as you said yourself microsoft are out to
make money so think creating something flashy will do to sucker
people in, and bugger compatibility or personalisation, (and yes, I
do blame them for this, since they have more than enough money to
include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for
media playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four
I can do quite well already and have never heard that post xp
windows does any better at them, (indeed since I'd still be using
winamp the media playback would be exactly the same), however as I
said with an iphone I was quite willing to switch for the, and if
there were five detailed and major games only playable on post xp
windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Darren Duff
2013-09-11 22:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Umm. Gma games work just fine if you set them up to run in xp mode.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 5:16 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

I aggree dark.
and in some cases while some games have been upgraded to use modern
components, the large majority of them still use old files.
and though for now the majority of them will work some of them that use old
stuff like the gma stuff just don't work right on the newer systems.
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get,
is that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the
world don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live
without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve,
especially in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included
propper backwards compatibility and interface control that would've
been different, but they haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a
really cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it
comes with windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd
considder upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there
were lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected
would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good
reasons to upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more
interesting features that would be playable only on newer os, but they
haven't appeared, indeed I can only think of one single audio game,
airic the clerric which is windows 7 only, (and even that is being
fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using
xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os,
and if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous
new things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system
which is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface,
and offers nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user,
however as you said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think
creating something flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger
compatibility or personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this,
since they have more than enough money to include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for
media playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I
can do quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows
does any better at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the
media playback would be exactly the same), however as I said with an
iphone I was quite willing to switch for the, and if there were five
detailed and major games only playable on post xp windows I'd switch
myself, and likely others would as well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-11 21:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Dark, this is not Microsoft's fault. You're railing here,against capitalism itself. -Which is fine btw, but remember you're a part of this system as well.

As for new and wonderous games for new OS'es, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy! How can there be new games for OS'es which no one is willing to use? How will developers make any money writing games which they know they will never sell because people like yourself refuse to update to a new OS?

Why would a small developer put themselves in that position deliberately? This is simply unrealistic and unsympathetic to expect someone to do. How is someone supposed to make a living? Are they just supposed to put themselves out just so they can try to woo people to adopt a new OS and then sit back and hope against hope that people will in fact like their game enough to update their OS for it?

What would you have developers do?

thanks,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

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On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:10 PM, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:

Hi Tom.

the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world don't actually matter.

yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live without older games, but why should I?

Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve, especially in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included propper backwards compatibility and interface control that would've been different, but they haven't).

Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder upgrading.

Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.

Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons to upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features that would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed I can only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is windows 7 only, (and even that is being fixed).



Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more than enough money to include whatever they like).

so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any better at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback would be exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite willing to switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games only playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as well.

beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 22:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cara,

Thanks, for saying what I would like to say but couldn't find the
words for it. You are absolutely right that people like Dark are
contributing to the very problem he is complaining about.

Its a classic catch 22 situation. Developers like myself aren't going
to develop games specifically for Windows 7, Windows 8, etc because
not enough blind users are using it yet to make doing so a good
financial investment for my products. Sure, using SFML speech tags for
SAPI voices would be cool, switching to XAudio2 instead of DirectSound
would be better for a 5.1 surround sound environment, and using the
Microsoft Speech Recognition for voice input would rock, but it
doesn't matter if my customers can't use any of it because they aren't
running a newer version of Windows with those features. The customers
for their own part are adding to the problem by not upgrading, and
waiting for the developers to make new games with features x, y, and
z. Not going to happen until more users have the right software and
hardware. Thus we have a catch 22 situation.

I don't know what Dark and others like him think we developers should
do. I certainly don't know what to do, because while I can write games
for Windows 7 or Windows 8 with all the features I want, but marketing
that product could be a problem if the majority of VI users have XP.
Its already a minority market, and there is no need to lower the
number of sales even further just because there are some features
available in newer versions of Windows I personally can use but most
of my customers can't.

Cheers!
Post by Cara Quinn
Dark, this is not Microsoft's fault. You're railing here,against capitalism
itself. -Which is fine btw, but remember you're a part of this system as
well.
As for new and wonderous games for new OS'es, this is a self-fulfilling
prophecy! How can there be new games for OS'es which no one is willing to
use? How will developers make any money writing games which they know they
will never sell because people like yourself refuse to update to a new OS?
Why would a small developer put themselves in that position deliberately?
This is simply unrealistic and unsympathetic to expect someone to do. How is
someone supposed to make a living? Are they just supposed to put themselves
out just so they can try to woo people to adopt a new OS and then sit back
and hope against hope that people will in fact like their game enough to
update their OS for it?
What would you have developers do?
thanks,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
Charles Rivard
2013-09-11 23:26:19 UTC
Permalink
I would have developers develop for what their customers use. Should it be
the customer?, or the developer, who determines what will sell? The iPhone
is still very popular with blind people. Should developers develop for the
Android if they think the Android is the most current device? If they do,
their goods won't be purchased by users of the iPhone, which are the
majority of their potential customers. Same idea. Potential customers
won't buy software that won't work on XP if they, by their choices that are
based on available funds and, in some cases, due to a lack of willingness to
change because what they are using meets their needs. If software only
works with Windows 7 and above, blind people won't buy it, and the developer
loses due to the fact that he or she feels that the customers should change.
What ever happened to the adage that "The customer is always right."? It
just makes sense for me, as a developer, to develop what my customers will
be able to use rather than what they will use if they upgrade to the
hardware and software that I think they should. Even if there are good
sound reasons to upgrade, if my customers cannot do so, or if they won't do
so, I, as a developer, should produce what they can and will buy.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cara Quinn" <caraquinn at caraquinn.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Cara Quinn
Dark, this is not Microsoft's fault. You're railing here,against
capitalism itself. -Which is fine btw, but remember you're a part of this
system as well.
As for new and wonderous games for new OS'es, this is a self-fulfilling
prophecy! How can there be new games for OS'es which no one is willing to
use? How will developers make any money writing games which they know they
will never sell because people like yourself refuse to update to a new OS?
Why would a small developer put themselves in that position deliberately?
This is simply unrealistic and unsympathetic to expect someone to do. How
is someone supposed to make a living? Are they just supposed to put
themselves out just so they can try to woo people to adopt a new OS and
then sit back and hope against hope that people will in fact like their
game enough to update their OS for it?
What would you have developers do?
thanks,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is
that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world
don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live
without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve,
especially in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included
propper backwards compatibility and interface control that would've been
different, but they haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really
cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with
windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder
upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were
lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected
would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons
to upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features
that would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed
I can only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is
windows 7 only, (and even that is being fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using
xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and
if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new
things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which
is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers
nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you
said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something
flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or
personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more
than enough money to include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media
playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do
quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any
better at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback
would be exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite
willing to switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games
only playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others
would as well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
---
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-12 03:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles, see my previous note to you.

In a closed system this would be fine, but unfortunately, the devs also need to keep their tech up to date. (just like their users do) So While your reasoning is sound on a micro level, it doesn't necessarily play out this way on a macro level, in the world the way we have it today. Not saying one is better than the other, just saying that this is the case.

Thanks,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 4:26 PM, Charles Rivard <wee1sman at fidnet.com> wrote:

I would have developers develop for what their customers use. Should it be the customer?, or the developer, who determines what will sell? The iPhone is still very popular with blind people. Should developers develop for the Android if they think the Android is the most current device? If they do, their goods won't be purchased by users of the iPhone, which are the majority of their potential customers. Same idea. Potential customers won't buy software that won't work on XP if they, by their choices that are based on available funds and, in some cases, due to a lack of willingness to change because what they are using meets their needs. If software only works with Windows 7 and above, blind people won't buy it, and the developer loses due to the fact that he or she feels that the customers should change. What ever happened to the adage that "The customer is always right."? It just makes sense for me, as a developer, to develop what my customers will be able to use rather than what they will use if they upgrade to the hardware and software that I think they should. Even if there are good sound reasons to upgrade, if my customers cannot do so, or if they won't do so, I, as a developer, should produce what they can and will buy.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Cara Quinn" <caraquinn at caraquinn.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Cara Quinn
Dark, this is not Microsoft's fault. You're railing here,against capitalism itself. -Which is fine btw, but remember you're a part of this system as well.
As for new and wonderous games for new OS'es, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy! How can there be new games for OS'es which no one is willing to use? How will developers make any money writing games which they know they will never sell because people like yourself refuse to update to a new OS?
Why would a small developer put themselves in that position deliberately? This is simply unrealistic and unsympathetic to expect someone to do. How is someone supposed to make a living? Are they just supposed to put themselves out just so they can try to woo people to adopt a new OS and then sit back and hope against hope that people will in fact like their game enough to update their OS for it?
What would you have developers do?
thanks,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve, especially in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included propper backwards compatibility and interface control that would've been different, but they haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons to upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features that would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed I can only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is windows 7 only, (and even that is being fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more than enough money to include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any better at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback would be exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite willing to switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games only playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 03:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

Well, there is a fundamental problem with the way you are looking at
this though. You are treating audio game developers, who are usually
one to three man shops, the same way you would treat a huge mainstream
company like Microsoft or Sony, and sometimes what you want is not
practical or even possible from the developer's point of view. So no I
don't believe the customer is always right.

To begin with there is very little money to be made from creating
audio games. Only a few thousand at best. As a result most of the
audio game developers out here who are making games for the blind
probably do so out of some personal enjoyment and personal
gratification rather than out of any sense of making a living off of
it.

Seen from that perspective the developer is much as a user of his/her
games as the people who buy it. So his/her opinion holds a lot of
weight on what platforms it supports, what features the game has, and
so on. It is like a work of art and people should be able to respect
it as such. However, because of this opinion that the customer is
always right, can never be wrong, they often don't respect the
developer's opinions in such matters.

So let's use your own example for a moment. Let's say a blind
developer has a Droid Phone, knows Java, and writes a cool game for
his Google Nexus. Well, it probably won't sell well,since there aren't
many blind people using Droid Phones, but if the developer is happy
that is all that counts. Customers can request that developer ports it
to iOS all they want, but unless the developer owns a Mac, has an
iPhone, and knows Objective-C, etc it isn't going to happen. Why
should the developer spend all that money just to port the game if he
is happy with it the way it is?

I see a similar situation happening with this debate over XP verses
Windows 8. Now, I believe you use XP so naturally you are in favor of
XP support. Well, since I don't use XP and have not done so regularly
since 2007 or so I don't really have any personal stake in maintaining
XP support in my products. I'll do it for the games I already took
preorders for simply because doing so would be really unfair to those
customers who paid for said games in good faith, but I can't promise
anything else after that. The reason is like the fictional Droid Phone
developer I have a newer machine running Windows 8 and I'm happy with
it for the most part. If I decide at some point to build my games
using SAPI 5.5, XAudio2, and a few other updated libraries that is
just tough luck. XP users will have to upgrade or forget it. I'm tired
of what people want, and its time I get some personal satisfaction out
of my games.

As it happens I think a lot of blind customers have been spoiled to a
certain point. I have been willing to bend over backwards to do this
and that for them, and I don't feel like people really appreciated it.
A lot of audio game developers of course use XP, write their games in
VB 6, so XP compatability up until now has not been a big issue.
However, from where I stand it is a big issue because some things like
DirectSound really do not work well on Windows 8, and the only way to
fix it is to change libraries. As it happens some of those newer
libraries may or may not work well on XP. So in order to maintain XP
support I have to do more work maintaining backwards compatibility for
those users who won't upgrade to Windows 8. I think as a developer it
is my right to decide if it is worth it to do the extra work to
support XP or not.

At any rate I believe after tomb Hunter and Raceway are finished I
really might not continue writing any more commercial games. Its too
much of a hassle with too little pay. Were I giving away free games
like Jim Kitchen I can write the games I want, for the platform I
want, using the libraries I want, and if someone doesn't like it don't
download it. No pay no say.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
I would have developers develop for what their customers use. Should it be
the customer?, or the developer, who determines what will sell? The iPhone
is still very popular with blind people. Should developers develop for the
Android if they think the Android is the most current device? If they do,
their goods won't be purchased by users of the iPhone, which are the
majority of their potential customers. Same idea. Potential customers
won't buy software that won't work on XP if they, by their choices that are
based on available funds and, in some cases, due to a lack of willingness to
change because what they are using meets their needs. If software only
works with Windows 7 and above, blind people won't buy it, and the developer
loses due to the fact that he or she feels that the customers should change.
What ever happened to the adage that "The customer is always right."? It
just makes sense for me, as a developer, to develop what my customers will
be able to use rather than what they will use if they upgrade to the
hardware and software that I think they should. Even if there are good
sound reasons to upgrade, if my customers cannot do so, or if they won't do
so, I, as a developer, should produce what they can and will buy.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
Josh
2013-09-12 00:03:50 UTC
Permalink
have developers switch to ubuntu and android open source operating
systems and have them charge for the source code and charge for the app
itself.


sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Cara Quinn
Dark, this is not Microsoft's fault. You're railing here,against capitalism itself. -Which is fine btw, but remember you're a part of this system as well.
As for new and wonderous games for new OS'es, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy! How can there be new games for OS'es which no one is willing to use? How will developers make any money writing games which they know they will never sell because people like yourself refuse to update to a new OS?
Why would a small developer put themselves in that position deliberately? This is simply unrealistic and unsympathetic to expect someone to do. How is someone supposed to make a living? Are they just supposed to put themselves out just so they can try to woo people to adopt a new OS and then sit back and hope against hope that people will in fact like their game enough to update their OS for it?
What would you have developers do?
thanks,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve, especially in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included propper backwards compatibility and interface control that would've been different, but they haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons to upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features that would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed I can only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is windows 7 only, (and even that is being fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more than enough money to include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any better at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback would be exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite willing to switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games only playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
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dark
2013-09-12 03:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Kara.

In that case, then I'm sticking with xp plane and simple.if nobody had
written games for the iphone I wouldn't own one, and tom's very point was
that he wanted! to use these wondrous new features.

And yes, I do blaime microsoft. If you went to your favourite restaurant who
served a fantastic chilly con carni, and the chef said "sorry, we don't make
that anymore, the ingredients are too expensive" you'd find another
restauant. It is the very fact that microsoft's monopoly on computing mean
we're stuck with whatever they want that means we should! be more crytical
of them, not less, since tacitly accepting just means we're entering
huxley's brave new world.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Josh
2013-09-12 03:42:46 UTC
Permalink
yep i'll stick with linux and just run windows7 windows xp and windows8
in virtual machines then I can have all the windows when I want where I
want and if I don't want it just don't run the vm.


sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
Hi Kara.
In that case, then I'm sticking with xp plane and simple.if nobody had
written games for the iphone I wouldn't own one, and tom's very point
was that he wanted! to use these wondrous new features.
And yes, I do blaime microsoft. If you went to your favourite
restaurant who served a fantastic chilly con carni, and the chef said
"sorry, we don't make that anymore, the ingredients are too expensive"
you'd find another restauant. It is the very fact that microsoft's
monopoly on computing mean we're stuck with whatever they want that
means we should! be more crytical of them, not less, since tacitly
accepting just means we're entering huxley's brave new world.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-12 04:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark, agreed, but again this is not Microsoft but this situation is being allowed to happen by law-makers not just in the US, but around the world. Obviously I can speak only for this country so please do feel free to share any nuances I miss. :)

The desktop OS market is basically like Coke or Pepsi. There really isn't much else, unless you want to make your soda by hand, a'la Linux. ;)

So basically people choose Coke or Pepsi and that's it.

I wish there were more choices as in your restaurant analogy! :) That would rock. I think you should start your own OS.

Anyway, thanks for your points and have a great evening!

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
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On Sep 11, 2013, at 8:39 PM, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:

Hi Kara.

In that case, then I'm sticking with xp plane and simple.if nobody had written games for the iphone I wouldn't own one, and tom's very point was that he wanted! to use these wondrous new features.

And yes, I do blaime microsoft. If you went to your favourite restaurant who served a fantastic chilly con carni, and the chef said "sorry, we don't make that anymore, the ingredients are too expensive" you'd find another restauant. It is the very fact that microsoft's monopoly on computing mean we're stuck with whatever they want that means we should! be more crytical of them, not less, since tacitly accepting just means we're entering huxley's brave new world.

Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 22:27:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

No, I think the problem is that we are coming at this topic from two
completely different points of view. You are looking at this from the
short term view where I am looking at this from the long view. Let me
explain.

When you look at something like Windows 8 you ask, "what can it do for
me right now?" That's a very valid question, but it only takes into
consideration the here and now. If your only consideration is media
playback, word processing, email, and Internet browsing its true that
Windows 8 doesn't really have anything new to offer you. However, that
is not the only thing you need to be concerned about in my opinion.

Since I look at it over the long term, what will things be like a few
years from now, I see problems for you and others you aren't even
stopping to consider at this point.

For example, hardware support. We already know many companies have
stopped producing hardware drivers for new devices like sound cards,
network cards, motherboards, etc. So if your computer died and you had
to get a new one it isn't like you can just grab your old XP disk and
install it on the new computer. The lack of compatible hardware
drivers etc will make that impossible for all practical purposes.
Sure, you could in theory go to Ebay or somewhere and buy a used or
refurbished XP system for less than the price of a new one, but why do
that when you could put that money towards a newer and better computer
anyway? It seems to me such a decision would be avoiding the
inevitable.

Another problem I see coming down the road for XP users is 64-bit
software. Right now we are in a transitional phase where companies are
putting out both 32-bit and 64-bit applications that are still more or
less XP compatible. In five to ten years I see most companies going to
64-bit and dropping support for 32-bit software completely. Anyone
still running XP will be left behind.

This of course has the potential of effecting you personally in a big
way. Security software like AVG will no longer have updates for XP,
screen readers like Supernova might drop XP, and perhaps a favorite
media player like Winamp will have updated to the new OS. These sorts
of changes are coming eventually, and while I can't say when I don't
think it is exactly a good idea to ignore the fact this is slowly
beginning to happen, and will probably get worse as soon as Microsoft
drops XP next year.

In short, the way I see it a person who upgrades is being smart by
taking the long view slowly upgrading and preparing for these changes
before they become mandatory. To roll with the change before it
happens. As we the blind community often don't have a lot of money to
invest in technology slowly upgrading over say a five year period is
better than waiting until a computer dies and going out and buying a
new 64-bit laptop with Windows 8.1 on it and not having a compatible
screen reader, office suite, games, SAPI voices, all because that
person was stubborn and refused to update until circumstances forced
him/her into it.

I hope that maybe explains my position a little better. I just think
that all of these arguments you are making about Windows 8 etc not
having anything to offer in terms of Internet, email, word processing,
playing music, whatever is a mute point when in a few years you'll
have no choice eventually to upgrade. You can do that upgrading now or
wait until your XP machine kicks the bucket, dies a horrible death,
goes off to computer heaven, etc but in the end you will have to
upgrade anyway. As the Rolling Stones use to say, "time is on my
side."

Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is
that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world
don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live
without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve, especially
in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included propper backwards
compatibility and interface control that would've been different, but they
haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really
cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with
windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were
lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected
would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons to
upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features that
would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed I can
only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is windows 7
only, (and even that is being fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using
xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and
if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new
things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which
is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers
nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you
said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something
flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or
personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more
than enough money to include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media
playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do
quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any better
at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback would be
exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite willing to
switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games only
playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as
well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
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Josh
2013-09-12 00:06:11 UTC
Permalink
I also see that people are moving from computers for their game platform
to mobile devices like iphones and android phones and tablets. if google
employees use ubuntu then it should be good enough for the rest of us.



sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
No, I think the problem is that we are coming at this topic from two
completely different points of view. You are looking at this from the
short term view where I am looking at this from the long view. Let me
explain.
When you look at something like Windows 8 you ask, "what can it do for
me right now?" That's a very valid question, but it only takes into
consideration the here and now. If your only consideration is media
playback, word processing, email, and Internet browsing its true that
Windows 8 doesn't really have anything new to offer you. However, that
is not the only thing you need to be concerned about in my opinion.
Since I look at it over the long term, what will things be like a few
years from now, I see problems for you and others you aren't even
stopping to consider at this point.
For example, hardware support. We already know many companies have
stopped producing hardware drivers for new devices like sound cards,
network cards, motherboards, etc. So if your computer died and you had
to get a new one it isn't like you can just grab your old XP disk and
install it on the new computer. The lack of compatible hardware
drivers etc will make that impossible for all practical purposes.
Sure, you could in theory go to Ebay or somewhere and buy a used or
refurbished XP system for less than the price of a new one, but why do
that when you could put that money towards a newer and better computer
anyway? It seems to me such a decision would be avoiding the
inevitable.
Another problem I see coming down the road for XP users is 64-bit
software. Right now we are in a transitional phase where companies are
putting out both 32-bit and 64-bit applications that are still more or
less XP compatible. In five to ten years I see most companies going to
64-bit and dropping support for 32-bit software completely. Anyone
still running XP will be left behind.
This of course has the potential of effecting you personally in a big
way. Security software like AVG will no longer have updates for XP,
screen readers like Supernova might drop XP, and perhaps a favorite
media player like Winamp will have updated to the new OS. These sorts
of changes are coming eventually, and while I can't say when I don't
think it is exactly a good idea to ignore the fact this is slowly
beginning to happen, and will probably get worse as soon as Microsoft
drops XP next year.
In short, the way I see it a person who upgrades is being smart by
taking the long view slowly upgrading and preparing for these changes
before they become mandatory. To roll with the change before it
happens. As we the blind community often don't have a lot of money to
invest in technology slowly upgrading over say a five year period is
better than waiting until a computer dies and going out and buying a
new 64-bit laptop with Windows 8.1 on it and not having a compatible
screen reader, office suite, games, SAPI voices, all because that
person was stubborn and refused to update until circumstances forced
him/her into it.
I hope that maybe explains my position a little better. I just think
that all of these arguments you are making about Windows 8 etc not
having anything to offer in terms of Internet, email, word processing,
playing music, whatever is a mute point when in a few years you'll
have no choice eventually to upgrade. You can do that upgrading now or
wait until your XP machine kicks the bucket, dies a horrible death,
goes off to computer heaven, etc but in the end you will have to
upgrade anyway. As the Rolling Stones use to say, "time is on my
side."
Cheers!
Post by dark
Hi Tom.
the problem, and the thing you and other developers don't seem to get, is
that all the hip software upgrades and big number features in the world
don't actually matter.
yes, I could probably get used to the new interface, and probably live
without older games, but why should I?
Microsoft have created a system which does have a learning curve, especially
in it's lack of personal customization, (had they included propper backwards
compatibility and interface control that would've been different, but they
haven't).
Myself, if you or other developers started! saying "look, this is a really
cool feature that this game can use, like that tags idea and it comes with
windows 8, here! is a good reason to upgrade" then I'd considder upgrading.
Why did I buy an iphone and get used to vo? because basically there were
lots of fun things that I couldn't do with an xp laptop.
Back when windows 7 originally came out this is exactly what I expected
would happen, and by this point in time I expected actually good reasons to
upgrade, a hole bunch of games with newer and more interesting features that
would be playable only on newer os, but they haven't appeared, indeed I can
only think of one single audio game, airic the clerric which is windows 7
only, (and even that is being fixed).
Yes, this means for a while people won't buy your games that are using
xp, ---- but as you pointed out yourself that is the risk of a new os, and
if your so bothered about making the best games with these wondrous new
things it shouldn't matter.
Ultimately of course the fault is microsoft's, for creating a system which
is utterly unattractive, which has a harder to learn interface, and offers
nothing of practical use to the actual everyday vi user, however as you
said yourself microsoft are out to make money so think creating something
flashy will do to sucker people in, and bugger compatibility or
personalisation, (and yes, I do blame them for this, since they have more
than enough money to include whatever they like).
so, there is my principle challenge. Myself, I use my computer for media
playback, writing, internet brousing and games. The first four I can do
quite well already and have never heard that post xp windows does any better
at them, (indeed since I'd still be using winamp the media playback would be
exactly the same), however as I said with an iphone I was quite willing to
switch for the, and if there were five detailed and major games only
playable on post xp windows I'd switch myself, and likely others would as
well.
beware the Grue!
Dark.
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 02:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josh,

Yes, mobile devices is also a factor that will help bring down XP and
the PC as we know it. A lot of people, even blind people, are slowly
getting into mobile devices like iPhones, iPads, and iPods thanks to
Apple's accessibility, and it could be the future of accessible games
will bfore someone's phone or tablet rather than for their Windows PC.
There still may be a few developers around putting out Windows games,
but I see a trend towards mobile devices like iPhones really taking
off.

In fact, the whole idea behind Windows 8's UI change is to be more
like Apple. There are already a number of devices like smart phones
and tablets running Windows 8, and while Narrator isn't the equal of
VO right now those devices are still functionally usable by a blind
user, and it stands to reason is a market that eventually could see
more audio games in time.

Cheers!
Post by Josh
I also see that people are moving from computers for their game platform
to mobile devices like iphones and android phones and tablets. if google
employees use ubuntu then it should be good enough for the rest of us.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Josh
2013-09-12 02:51:01 UTC
Permalink
but I se pcs sticking around for awhile. imagine business people trying
to do long reports and complicated spreadsheets on their touch only
tablet? and what about those of us who like to use different linux systems?

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Josh,
Yes, mobile devices is also a factor that will help bring down XP and
the PC as we know it. A lot of people, even blind people, are slowly
getting into mobile devices like iPhones, iPads, and iPods thanks to
Apple's accessibility, and it could be the future of accessible games
will bfore someone's phone or tablet rather than for their Windows PC.
There still may be a few developers around putting out Windows games,
but I see a trend towards mobile devices like iPhones really taking
off.
In fact, the whole idea behind Windows 8's UI change is to be more
like Apple. There are already a number of devices like smart phones
and tablets running Windows 8, and while Narrator isn't the equal of
VO right now those devices are still functionally usable by a blind
user, and it stands to reason is a market that eventually could see
more audio games in time.
Cheers!
Post by Josh
I also see that people are moving from computers for their game platform
to mobile devices like iphones and android phones and tablets. if google
employees use ubuntu then it should be good enough for the rest of us.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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shaun everiss
2013-09-12 03:19:47 UTC
Permalink
that I can aggree with, my brother has both a tablet and a phone both android.
he however does like the pc when he has something he needs to do.
I think we will see more games for several devices like consoles,
computers and the like though computer software is getting less and
less for offline yes there is still a lot online but most of that is
digital stuff now.
Post by Josh
but I se pcs sticking around for awhile. imagine business people
trying to do long reports and complicated spreadsheets on their
touch only tablet? and what about those of us who like to use
different linux systems?
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Josh,
Yes, mobile devices is also a factor that will help bring down XP and
the PC as we know it. A lot of people, even blind people, are slowly
getting into mobile devices like iPhones, iPads, and iPods thanks to
Apple's accessibility, and it could be the future of accessible games
will bfore someone's phone or tablet rather than for their Windows PC.
There still may be a few developers around putting out Windows games,
but I see a trend towards mobile devices like iPhones really taking
off.
In fact, the whole idea behind Windows 8's UI change is to be more
like Apple. There are already a number of devices like smart phones
and tablets running Windows 8, and while Narrator isn't the equal of
VO right now those devices are still functionally usable by a blind
user, and it stands to reason is a market that eventually could see
more audio games in time.
Cheers!
Post by Josh
I also see that people are moving from computers for their game platform
to mobile devices like iphones and android phones and tablets. if google
employees use ubuntu then it should be good enough for the rest of us.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
---
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 03:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josh,

Obviously, the PC will still be useful in a business setting, and
people will use them to type reports, create spreadsheets, and do
other office work, but that wasn't really the point I was getting at.
Although, someone could get a bluetooth keyboard to work with there
iPhone or iPad if they wanted to use that for typing reports and such.

The point is a lot of things like web browsing, email, and playing
games can easily be done from someone's iPhone and as a result people
will slowly use their PC less as they adapt to doing things on their
phone that they use to use their desktop or laptop for. As a result
I'm sure audio games will begin to move over to iOS, as they already
have, and we will see less and less of games for Windows and such.

Cheers!
Post by Josh
but I se pcs sticking around for awhile. imagine business people trying
to do long reports and complicated spreadsheets on their touch only
tablet? and what about those of us who like to use different linux systems?
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Devin Prater
2013-09-12 03:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Well, my point of view. I have a Mac mini, and an iPod, and a windows desktop that I barely use. I have King of Dragon Pass on my iPod, and Silverdollar on my mac. I honestly rarely play silverdollar, but I do play rsGames some, on my mac, and may play in the playroom now that it is in a web client also. I do like having games on my iPod, since that means that, on the bus ride from home or school, I can enjoy running a kingdom and such, even though I fail all the time.
On the mac, I do wish their were more games, but I'm happy with rsGames, especially since they always are adding content.

Envoy? de mon iPod

Le 11 sept. 2013 ? 22:28, Thomas Ward <thomasward1978 at gmail.com> a ?crit :

Hi Josh,

Obviously, the PC will still be useful in a business setting, and
people will use them to type reports, create spreadsheets, and do
other office work, but that wasn't really the point I was getting at.
Although, someone could get a bluetooth keyboard to work with there
iPhone or iPad if they wanted to use that for typing reports and such.

The point is a lot of things like web browsing, email, and playing
games can easily be done from someone's iPhone and as a result people
will slowly use their PC less as they adapt to doing things on their
phone that they use to use their desktop or laptop for. As a result
I'm sure audio games will begin to move over to iOS, as they already
have, and we will see less and less of games for Windows and such.

Cheers!
Post by Josh
but I se pcs sticking around for awhile. imagine business people trying
to do long reports and complicated spreadsheets on their touch only
tablet? and what about those of us who like to use different linux systems?
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
---
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dark
2013-09-12 03:55:30 UTC
Permalink
However again tom, you say "a newer and better computer"

Suppose say winamp's next version won't work on xp, ---- well is it's next
version any better than the previous one? Heck, I don't have the latest
version of winamp now, mostly because what I do with winamp is quite okay
anyway, indeed winamp only usually gets upgraded when I can be bothered.

This is basically the problem with this philoosophy of "you must have the
latest upgrade" my question is "well why?"

I still own a snes, it still works, I still play games on it. Yes, there are
plenty of other consoles with far better hardware and software, but none of
them have as many playable games for me so why should I upgrade?

yes, in a few years I might be forced to upgrade if my computer breaks, but
if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a new machine, and learn a new
interface I want some actual return on my investment.

This is indeed why I waited myself back in 2008, in the hope that developers
would make it worth my while to upgrade, but as yet nobody has, heck, if my
computer died I'd be very tempted to get another xp machine just because I
just don't see any bennifit in all the sshenanigans with a new os, all it
would mean is losing outlook express, getting an inconvenient interface, and
bad compatibility with several programs.

I freely admit this situation may change, indeed I'd be very happy if it did
and someone used these supposedly wondrous new features to create better
games and software, but that just plane hasn't happened.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 04:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Well, like I said before its a classic catch 22. If a gamer waits for
developers to develop games for say Windows 7 and Windows 8 using 5.1
surround sound using XAudio2, SFML tags for SAPI, and so on it will
never happen because that developer is not going to add features if
the majority of his or her potential customers can't use it. He or she
is largely waisting there time on a feature that only a handful of
customers can even use. So by waiting you are depriving yourself of
the very thing you want developers to add, because there is no
certainty if developer x adds all these new features to a game a huge
number of gamers will upgrade to play said game. Chances are they
won't so its an endless cycle much like a dog endlessly chasing its
tail. Round and round we go where we stop nobody knows.

Reminds me of this conversation, because we are getting nowhere. We
are circling around and around the same points and neither side is
making any progress. So maybe I need to be the first to break it.
Maybe I'll start developing games exclusively for Windows 7, Windows
8, and tell all the XP users like you to upgrade or get lost.
Muhahaha!

Cheers!
Post by dark
However again tom, you say "a newer and better computer"
Suppose say winamp's next version won't work on xp, ---- well is it's next
version any better than the previous one? Heck, I don't have the latest
version of winamp now, mostly because what I do with winamp is quite okay
anyway, indeed winamp only usually gets upgraded when I can be bothered.
This is basically the problem with this philoosophy of "you must have the
latest upgrade" my question is "well why?"
I still own a snes, it still works, I still play games on it. Yes, there are
plenty of other consoles with far better hardware and software, but none of
them have as many playable games for me so why should I upgrade?
yes, in a few years I might be forced to upgrade if my computer breaks, but
if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a new machine, and learn a new
interface I want some actual return on my investment.
This is indeed why I waited myself back in 2008, in the hope that developers
would make it worth my while to upgrade, but as yet nobody has, heck, if my
computer died I'd be very tempted to get another xp machine just because I
just don't see any bennifit in all the sshenanigans with a new os, all it
would mean is losing outlook express, getting an inconvenient interface, and
bad compatibility with several programs.
I freely admit this situation may change, indeed I'd be very happy if it did
and someone used these supposedly wondrous new features to create better
games and software, but that just plane hasn't happened.
Beware the Grue!
Dark.
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dark
2013-09-12 04:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Well Tom in that case lets stick with xp. If something is of no actual
bennifit why use it? :D.

Actually in fairness this isn't your fault, it's microsoft's for creating an
upgrade that actually doesn't do anything better.

But your right in that everything has been said so this conversation might
as well stop.

however I have explained why, if my xp desktop broke tomorrow I'd likely
still buy another xp machine, and not upgrade windows.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
Willem Venter
2013-09-12 04:18:37 UTC
Permalink
No one have mentioned security or stability up to now.
Dark's point about running older software exposes a flaw in his
argument. Free software like winamp is upgraded for mainly two
reasons.
1. To add features (which you might or might not like or need). and
2. To fix bugs. Some of these bugs may not affect you and some might.
When it comes to security and exposing your computer to virus and
hacking attacks you will probably not even realize that the bug
affects you and you have been compromised.
The older a critical piece of software like an operating system
becomes the more attackers know about its flaws. If that software is
then no longer supported you have no defence and you become an easy
target.
It all then becomes a game of Russian roulette. It's just a matter of
time before you find the bullet.
Post by dark
However again tom, you say "a newer and better computer"
Suppose say winamp's next version won't work on xp, ---- well is it's next
version any better than the previous one? Heck, I don't have the latest
version of winamp now, mostly because what I do with winamp is quite okay
anyway, indeed winamp only usually gets upgraded when I can be bothered.
This is basically the problem with this philoosophy of "you must have the
latest upgrade" my question is "well why?"
I still own a snes, it still works, I still play games on it. Yes, there are
plenty of other consoles with far better hardware and software, but none of
them have as many playable games for me so why should I upgrade?
yes, in a few years I might be forced to upgrade if my computer breaks, but
if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a new machine, and learn a new
interface I want some actual return on my investment.
This is indeed why I waited myself back in 2008, in the hope that developers
would make it worth my while to upgrade, but as yet nobody has, heck, if my
computer died I'd be very tempted to get another xp machine just because I
just don't see any bennifit in all the sshenanigans with a new os, all it
would mean is losing outlook express, getting an inconvenient interface, and
bad compatibility with several programs.
I freely admit this situation may change, indeed I'd be very happy if it did
and someone used these supposedly wondrous new features to create better
games and software, but that just plane hasn't happened.
Beware the Grue!
Dark.
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dark
2013-09-12 04:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Again willem however that is an arguement about upgrading eventually, not
nnow.

i run avg 2012, and I can be certain even if I don't actually upgrade the
software itself, virus deffinitions and other security fixes will be
available for about the next four or five years (avg only just dropped
support for 2009).

At that point, I'm hoping that someone will have a good reason to upgrade
the os, something better that post xp windows does, which is my central
point.

Remember, I am not arguing that I will not! upgrade, only that I want a good
reason to, something thatI could do on a future version of windows that I
can't do now, and scaring with the security bogie man isn't one.

Beware the grue!

dark.

Josh
2013-09-11 20:45:11 UTC
Permalink
rhythmbox on vinux4 and sonar13 handles playlists no problem and I can
easily make new ones. Think of vinux4 as the poor person's mac only better.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've
included proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if
they don't have the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os,
though having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone
I do know usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the
irritating post xp interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file
management for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures
on the iphone using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time,
and the fact that I need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on
windows than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a
lot of mac stuff on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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.
dark
2013-09-11 20:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi josh.

It's not the playlists that are the issue, it's the fact that I've got about
1 tb of music and audio books that I myself have indexed into folders and
subfolders, some of which don't turn out properly when transfered to ios.

My solution is to create a playlist for say a book folder, but I wouldn't
want to do this with the amount of stuff I have, actually this is the one
aspect of the iphone that really gets on my nerves.

Beware the Grue!

dArk.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
rhythmbox on vinux4 and sonar13 handles playlists no problem and I can
easily make new ones. Think of vinux4 as the poor person's mac only better.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've
included proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they
don't have the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though
having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know
usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp
interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management
for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone
using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact
that I need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows
than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac
stuff on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Josh
2013-09-11 21:23:07 UTC
Permalink
I have all my stuff on an external hard drive so if the drive in the
computer goes all my music books and stuff is backed up.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
Hi josh.
It's not the playlists that are the issue, it's the fact that I've got
about 1 tb of music and audio books that I myself have indexed into
folders and subfolders, some of which don't turn out properly when
transfered to ios.
My solution is to create a playlist for say a book folder, but I
wouldn't want to do this with the amount of stuff I have, actually
this is the one aspect of the iphone that really gets on my nerves.
Beware the Grue!
dArk.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
rhythmbox on vinux4 and sonar13 handles playlists no problem and I
can easily make new ones. Think of vinux4 as the poor person's mac
only better.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've
included proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if
they don't have the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os,
though having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the
iphone I do know usage won't be as problematic as it would be with
the irritating post xp interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file
management for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder
structures on the iphone using playlists but it's not what I'd want
all the time, and the fact that I need something that opens office
and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the
other someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do
on windows than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to
a lot of mac stuff on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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dark
2013-09-12 03:35:17 UTC
Permalink
I do the same josh, Indeed I backup on a regular basis, but that wasn't
really the point I was trying to make.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
I have all my stuff on an external hard drive so if the drive in the
computer goes all my music books and stuff is backed up.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
Hi josh.
It's not the playlists that are the issue, it's the fact that I've got
about 1 tb of music and audio books that I myself have indexed into
folders and subfolders, some of which don't turn out properly when
transfered to ios.
My solution is to create a playlist for say a book folder, but I wouldn't
want to do this with the amount of stuff I have, actually this is the one
aspect of the iphone that really gets on my nerves.
Beware the Grue!
dArk.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
rhythmbox on vinux4 and sonar13 handles playlists no problem and I can
easily make new ones. Think of vinux4 as the poor person's mac only
better.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've
included proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if
they don't have the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os,
though having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone
I do know usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the
irritating post xp interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file
management for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures
on the iphone using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time,
and the fact that I need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on
windows than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot
of mac stuff on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Ken The PionEar
2013-09-12 01:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Sounds like it's time to jailbreak?
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by dark
Hi josh.
It's not the playlists that are the issue, it's the fact that I've got
about 1 tb of music and audio books that I myself have indexed into
folders and subfolders, some of which don't turn out properly when
transfered to ios.
My solution is to create a playlist for say a book folder, but I wouldn't
want to do this with the amount of stuff I have, actually this is the one
aspect of the iphone that really gets on my nerves.
Beware the Grue!
dArk.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
rhythmbox on vinux4 and sonar13 handles playlists no problem and I can
easily make new ones. Think of vinux4 as the poor person's mac only better.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'll think about that.
For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please
microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've
included proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they
don't have the money for developement).
In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os,
though having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I
do know usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating
post xp interface.
The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file
management for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures
on the iphone using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time,
and the fact that I need something that opens office and rtf documents.
I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows
versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other
someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on
windows than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot
of mac stuff on ios).
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward"
<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 02:02:40 UTC
Permalink
"I'm going to make a jail break, and I'm looking towards the sky. I'm
going to make a jail break, and how I wish I could fly. All in the
name of liberty. All in the name of liberty."
AC-DC, Jail Break
Post by Ken The PionEar
Sounds like it's time to jailbreak?
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
Darren Duff
2013-09-12 02:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Lol I was wondering if someone was going to do that!

-----Original Message-----
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-bounces at audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:03 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

"I'm going to make a jail break, and I'm looking towards the sky. I'm going
to make a jail break, and how I wish I could fly. All in the name of
liberty. All in the name of liberty."
AC-DC, Jail Break
Post by Ken The PionEar
Sounds like it's time to jailbreak?
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
---
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send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-11 21:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark, what do you mean about audio files?

ON the Mac, you can access them right from within the OS, just like you can with Windows. There's support for playing many types of audio files built natively into OSX.

You simply highlight one and press space on it. It will play.

YOu can also use other apps like iTunes etc. Hope this helps.

Have a great day!

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 12:48 PM, dark <dark at xgam.org> wrote:

I'll think about that.

For me, I just don't see why! I should! upgrade other than to please microsoft's expanding pockets, (and in fairness microsoft should've included proppper backwards compatibility, after all it's not as if they don't have the money for developement).

In fairness I'd need to investigate the bennifits of mac as an os, though having been quite impressed with vo's performance on the iphone I do know usage won't be as problematic as it would be with the irritating post xp interface.

The only thing that puts me off mac is the stupidity with file management for audio files, (I've found a way to get folder structures on the iphone using playlists but it's not what I'd want all the time, and the fact that I need something that opens office and rtf documents.

I'd also be concerned that if, as people keep claiming newer windows versions have upgraded this, latest that and more numbers in the other someone would! be more likely to make something I wanted to do on windows than on mac, (particularly since I already have access to a lot of mac stuff on ios).

All the best,

Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
dark
2013-09-11 21:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi Kara.

What I'm concerned about is that I have my audio files all organized by
folders and subfolders, directories I have created, yet when I stick them on
my iphone, my iphone takes no notice of file or folder names and gives them
a weerd ordering that usually messes things up (I know it does this through
tags, but that's a really irritating system if you don't want things
organized that way or have them labeled that way).

I've got a miner workaround with itunes using playlists to transfer books
and music onto my iphone, but I wouldn't want to do that all the time it'd
be quite a pest.

Does the mac do the same?

I also wonder about winamp on mac as well, since a lot of the stuff I have
is game music in whacky formats, (plus Iv'e personally configured winamp to
run with a set of presets that sute my speakers).

Beware the Grue!

Dark.
Cara Quinn
2013-09-11 21:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark, VLC works amazingly on Mac if you would rather not use iTunes. iTunes can organize your library using tags but it does not need to.

Again, you can check out VLC. That would be the most comparable to Winamp that I know of at the moment. It's really, really flexible and can play just about any media format there is.

If you like, check out the MacVisionaries email list. We can answer all your questions there.

Have an awesome day!

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 2:18 PM, "dark" <dark at xgam.org> wrote:

Hi Kara.

What I'm concerned about is that I have my audio files all organized by folders and subfolders, directories I have created, yet when I stick them on my iphone, my iphone takes no notice of file or folder names and gives them a weerd ordering that usually messes things up (I know it does this through tags, but that's a really irritating system if you don't want things organized that way or have them labeled that way).

I've got a miner workaround with itunes using playlists to transfer books and music onto my iphone, but I wouldn't want to do that all the time it'd be quite a pest.

Does the mac do the same?

I also wonder about winamp on mac as well, since a lot of the stuff I have is game music in whacky formats, (plus Iv'e personally configured winamp to run with a set of presets that sute my speakers).

Beware the Grue!

Dark.

---
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dark
2013-09-12 03:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi kara.

Well vlc I can at least check on windows, I might have a look at that.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cara Quinn" <caraquinn at caraquinn.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Cara Quinn
Hi Dark, VLC works amazingly on Mac if you would rather not use iTunes.
iTunes can organize your library using tags but it does not need to.
Again, you can check out VLC. That would be the most comparable to Winamp
that I know of at the moment. It's really, really flexible and can play
just about any media format there is.
If you like, check out the MacVisionaries email list. We can answer all
your questions there.
Have an awesome day!
Smiles,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
Hi Kara.
What I'm concerned about is that I have my audio files all organized by
folders and subfolders, directories I have created, yet when I stick them
on my iphone, my iphone takes no notice of file or folder names and gives
them a weerd ordering that usually messes things up (I know it does this
through tags, but that's a really irritating system if you don't want
things organized that way or have them labeled that way).
I've got a miner workaround with itunes using playlists to transfer books
and music onto my iphone, but I wouldn't want to do that all the time it'd
be quite a pest.
Does the mac do the same?
I also wonder about winamp on mac as well, since a lot of the stuff I have
is game music in whacky formats, (plus Iv'e personally configured winamp
to run with a set of presets that sute my speakers).
Beware the Grue!
Dark.
---
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Scott Chesworth
2013-09-12 00:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Just a small detail to throw into the mix. Apple already stopped
supporting XP via Boot Camp back in 2011. At the time I saw a few
relatively easy workarounds to get XP working again, but they were all
reliant on Apple still quietly providing a set of XP drivers on retail
disks of Lion. Tbh, I highly doubt that'll still be happening now,
what with Mountain Lion running everything in 64-bit by default. Even
if it is still the case, I'll eat my hat if it can still be done by
the time most of the XP hanger-onners actually attempt to make the
switch.

Of course, XP can still be installed and run via VmWare Fusion now,
and that'll be the same for years to come seeing as maximum
compatibility is one of the things that keeps VmWare in business.
Fusion will work a treat for the officy tasks that are still kinda
clunky or simply not doable with VoiceOver, and will probably also
keep some people content in terms of gaming, but you'll definitely
feel the difference when running any newer ttitles that tax the system
more through Fusion.

For what it's worth, the accessibility, length of support and rampant
capitalism on display doesn't seem any better or worse if you put your
fate in Apples hands. If you're fundamentally against the way the
technology industry is being run, then it's just a slightly different
flavour of doom, and you likely won't be any happier with Apple as
your evil overlords.

Oh happy day...

Scott
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Yes, you can run a Windows XP virtual machine on Mac. You can get
VMWare Workstation to run XP in a virtual machine, or you can use Boot
Camp to setup a multiboot with XP if you want to go that way for
running your old Windows apps and games. Either way the Mac allows you
to keep your old Windos OS while running the very latest version of
Mac OS and apps.
P.S.
FYI. It is Linux, L i n u x, not Lynux, L y n u x.
Cheers!
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run an xp
vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has more
options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
---
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Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 02:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Scott,

Thanks for the information. I didn't know Apple had dropped XP support
in Boot Camp, but I can't honestly say I am surprised either. XP is
really really old, and a lot of people are going to be dropping
support here and there. Everyone accept VMWare who stay in business by
offering a virtual machine for just about everything. :D

However, about the capitalist model you are right. It doesn't really
matter if it is Microsoft or Apple they are both the same from a
commercial developer standard. Its merely a case of pick your poison.

That is why there is a third solution, Linux, which is driven by the
user community rather than some all powerful money hungry corporation.
If the user is willing to take up an open source operating system,
customize it to is/her preference, he or she will do well. Otherwise
they will just have to pick one of the commercial developers who's
only objective is more money, money, money.

Cheers!
Post by Scott Chesworth
Just a small detail to throw into the mix. Apple already stopped
supporting XP via Boot Camp back in 2011. At the time I saw a few
relatively easy workarounds to get XP working again, but they were all
reliant on Apple still quietly providing a set of XP drivers on retail
disks of Lion. Tbh, I highly doubt that'll still be happening now,
what with Mountain Lion running everything in 64-bit by default. Even
if it is still the case, I'll eat my hat if it can still be done by
the time most of the XP hanger-onners actually attempt to make the
switch.
Of course, XP can still be installed and run via VmWare Fusion now,
and that'll be the same for years to come seeing as maximum
compatibility is one of the things that keeps VmWare in business.
Fusion will work a treat for the officy tasks that are still kinda
clunky or simply not doable with VoiceOver, and will probably also
keep some people content in terms of gaming, but you'll definitely
feel the difference when running any newer ttitles that tax the system
more through Fusion.
For what it's worth, the accessibility, length of support and rampant
capitalism on display doesn't seem any better or worse if you put your
fate in Apples hands. If you're fundamentally against the way the
technology industry is being run, then it's just a slightly different
flavour of doom, and you likely won't be any happier with Apple as
your evil overlords.
Oh happy day...
Scott
Josh
2013-09-12 02:52:12 UTC
Permalink
and remember there is android which is similar to linux it runs on linux
and it too is free open source but is for mobile devices and soon to be
ubuntu mobile also.

sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the information. I didn't know Apple had dropped XP support
in Boot Camp, but I can't honestly say I am surprised either. XP is
really really old, and a lot of people are going to be dropping
support here and there. Everyone accept VMWare who stay in business by
offering a virtual machine for just about everything. :D
However, about the capitalist model you are right. It doesn't really
matter if it is Microsoft or Apple they are both the same from a
commercial developer standard. Its merely a case of pick your poison.
That is why there is a third solution, Linux, which is driven by the
user community rather than some all powerful money hungry corporation.
If the user is willing to take up an open source operating system,
customize it to is/her preference, he or she will do well. Otherwise
they will just have to pick one of the commercial developers who's
only objective is more money, money, money.
Cheers!
Post by Scott Chesworth
Just a small detail to throw into the mix. Apple already stopped
supporting XP via Boot Camp back in 2011. At the time I saw a few
relatively easy workarounds to get XP working again, but they were all
reliant on Apple still quietly providing a set of XP drivers on retail
disks of Lion. Tbh, I highly doubt that'll still be happening now,
what with Mountain Lion running everything in 64-bit by default. Even
if it is still the case, I'll eat my hat if it can still be done by
the time most of the XP hanger-onners actually attempt to make the
switch.
Of course, XP can still be installed and run via VmWare Fusion now,
and that'll be the same for years to come seeing as maximum
compatibility is one of the things that keeps VmWare in business.
Fusion will work a treat for the officy tasks that are still kinda
clunky or simply not doable with VoiceOver, and will probably also
keep some people content in terms of gaming, but you'll definitely
feel the difference when running any newer ttitles that tax the system
more through Fusion.
For what it's worth, the accessibility, length of support and rampant
capitalism on display doesn't seem any better or worse if you put your
fate in Apples hands. If you're fundamentally against the way the
technology industry is being run, then it's just a slightly different
flavour of doom, and you likely won't be any happier with Apple as
your evil overlords.
Oh happy day...
Scott
---
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Cara Quinn
2013-09-12 03:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Actually there is a diff between MS and Apple since people are chatting about money being an issue for upgrading.

Apple only charges $30 USD to upgrade your OS.

I'd love to see MS try that.

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 7:30 PM, Thomas Ward <thomasward1978 at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the information. I didn't know Apple had dropped XP support
in Boot Camp, but I can't honestly say I am surprised either. XP is
really really old, and a lot of people are going to be dropping
support here and there. Everyone accept VMWare who stay in business by
offering a virtual machine for just about everything. :D

However, about the capitalist model you are right. It doesn't really
matter if it is Microsoft or Apple they are both the same from a
commercial developer standard. Its merely a case of pick your poison.

That is why there is a third solution, Linux, which is driven by the
user community rather than some all powerful money hungry corporation.
If the user is willing to take up an open source operating system,
customize it to is/her preference, he or she will do well. Otherwise
they will just have to pick one of the commercial developers who's
only objective is more money, money, money.

Cheers!
Post by Scott Chesworth
Just a small detail to throw into the mix. Apple already stopped
supporting XP via Boot Camp back in 2011. At the time I saw a few
relatively easy workarounds to get XP working again, but they were all
reliant on Apple still quietly providing a set of XP drivers on retail
disks of Lion. Tbh, I highly doubt that'll still be happening now,
what with Mountain Lion running everything in 64-bit by default. Even
if it is still the case, I'll eat my hat if it can still be done by
the time most of the XP hanger-onners actually attempt to make the
switch.
Of course, XP can still be installed and run via VmWare Fusion now,
and that'll be the same for years to come seeing as maximum
compatibility is one of the things that keeps VmWare in business.
Fusion will work a treat for the officy tasks that are still kinda
clunky or simply not doable with VoiceOver, and will probably also
keep some people content in terms of gaming, but you'll definitely
feel the difference when running any newer ttitles that tax the system
more through Fusion.
For what it's worth, the accessibility, length of support and rampant
capitalism on display doesn't seem any better or worse if you put your
fate in Apples hands. If you're fundamentally against the way the
technology industry is being run, then it's just a slightly different
flavour of doom, and you likely won't be any happier with Apple as
your evil overlords.
Oh happy day...
Scott
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 03:46:52 UTC
Permalink
hi Cara,

Yeah, that is a big difference. I think I paid $40 for the Windows 8
upgrade which is cheaper than usual, but Apple still has them beat
and Windows 8 was on sale. LOL!

Cheers!
Post by Cara Quinn
Actually there is a diff between MS and Apple since people are chatting
about money being an issue for upgrading.
Apple only charges $30 USD to upgrade your OS.
I'd love to see MS try that.
Smiles,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
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shaun everiss
2013-09-11 20:40:26 UTC
Permalink
yes you can with vmware fusion I think its called.
Post by dark
That is likely what I will end up doing eventually, ---- can you run
an xp vm on a mac?
I see myself more likely to go with mac than lynux, since mac has
more options for access etc than windows, unless something changes.
All the best,
Dark.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh" <joshknnd1982 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Josh
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you
put windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new
components hard drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't
available for xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there
really is any reason to upgrade since practically speaking it
seems all I get is a more irritating interface and less
compatibility with a good few games, and though these components
don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a
reason why! I should use one, something it does better than xp,
and no, having flashy ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me
that's a negative (I still think microsoft should've had the
option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better
games and such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but
that's not happened yet and I don't really see why i should say
goodbye to 32 bit compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid
interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything
has been said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out
there are perfectly good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger
numbers and newer versions of components that most people only use
to run other software aren't! a reason to upgrade if they're not
used for anything good, which up to now they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 19:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Josh,

Exactly. XP users are already finding out that there are not any
drivers available for newer computer components and one nice solution
for that is run it in VMWare Player as a guest OS. Let the host
operating system weather it is Windows 8, Linux, or Mac OS handle all
the drivers for you, and simply run XP on top of that OS for older
games and applications. The virtual machine will allow XP to access
newer hardware and devices for which there are no native drivers for
XP.

Cheers!
Post by Josh
nice thing about vmware is if you run it on a new machine and you put
windows xp inside of it then you can use xp with your new components
hard drives and stuff because vmware lets it work with those things.
sent from my vinux4 linux laptop
Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 20:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dark,

Well, as you pointed out there is no need for us to dreg up the why
upgrade debate because we have been down that road before, and there
isn't anything new I can really say that hasn't already been said
before. Plus while I personally feel XP users are doing themselves a
disservice in the long run by not upgrading there isn't anything I can
say to convince them of that if they are dead set against it. A person
convinced against their will is of the same opinion still so there is
little point in trying.

All I will say is there are advantages in upgrading weather a user
such as yourself think they are worthwhile or not. There are features
I as a game developer could use that would come in handy on say
Windows 8 that isn't available on Windows XP which would come in handy
for games and is one reason I might decide against supporting XP for
certain titles.

For example, one feature available in SAPI 5.3, 5.4, and SAPI 5.5 is
SFML tags. These are little special tags that allows me to control the
pitch, volume, pauses, and over all tone of the SAPI voice while
speaking. The new SAPI 5.5 voices are very expressive when these SFML
tags are used, and those tags could be imbedded into a game using SAPI
to show excitement when a player scores or can speak in a low ominous
voice when a player dies. SAPI 5.1 and the voices like Mike, Mary, and
Sam for XP doesn't have this feature and are rather robotic when
speaking. Although, there aren't any SAPI games that use this SFML
tagging feature new games could certainly do so if the developer is
willing to scrap the notion of supporting XP. So that is where I get a
bit frustrated as a developer.

So Microsoft has added this tagging feature in newer versions of SAPI,
but a huge percentage of the blind can not use it because they are
running XP. Therefore if I add that feature and release the game for
Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 I lose money because most of my
potential customers don't have the system requirements needed to run
my game. If I leave the feature out to remain backwards compatible
with XP I lose out on the feature even though I have everything up to
date. So by pandering to people who don't want to upgrade I can not
use newer Windows components and features simply because this
community for one reason or another won't upgrade and get with the
program. Kind of creating an impass as no matter what the developer
does someone looses out on features.

Cheers!
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why! I
should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not happened
yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit compatibility,
and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it certainly
hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a reason
to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now they
haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
Charles Rivard
2013-09-11 23:04:08 UTC
Permalink
In that case, how about catering to the majority of your customers by
developing what they can use? Seems like you have a choice, here; develop
what can be used by those who upgrade as you want them to do and lose the
majority of possible income, or develop for the majority of your customers
and lose out on the minority who decide to become more up to date. It
doesn't take much thought on which way to go if money is your goal. If 70
to 80 percent of my customers use Apple equipment, I'm going to develop
Apple software to sell to them. It does not make sense to sell to the other
20 or 30 percent in order to stay current with technology just for the sake
of staying current.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, as you pointed out there is no need for us to dreg up the why
upgrade debate because we have been down that road before, and there
isn't anything new I can really say that hasn't already been said
before. Plus while I personally feel XP users are doing themselves a
disservice in the long run by not upgrading there isn't anything I can
say to convince them of that if they are dead set against it. A person
convinced against their will is of the same opinion still so there is
little point in trying.
All I will say is there are advantages in upgrading weather a user
such as yourself think they are worthwhile or not. There are features
I as a game developer could use that would come in handy on say
Windows 8 that isn't available on Windows XP which would come in handy
for games and is one reason I might decide against supporting XP for
certain titles.
For example, one feature available in SAPI 5.3, 5.4, and SAPI 5.5 is
SFML tags. These are little special tags that allows me to control the
pitch, volume, pauses, and over all tone of the SAPI voice while
speaking. The new SAPI 5.5 voices are very expressive when these SFML
tags are used, and those tags could be imbedded into a game using SAPI
to show excitement when a player scores or can speak in a low ominous
voice when a player dies. SAPI 5.1 and the voices like Mike, Mary, and
Sam for XP doesn't have this feature and are rather robotic when
speaking. Although, there aren't any SAPI games that use this SFML
tagging feature new games could certainly do so if the developer is
willing to scrap the notion of supporting XP. So that is where I get a
bit frustrated as a developer.
So Microsoft has added this tagging feature in newer versions of SAPI,
but a huge percentage of the blind can not use it because they are
running XP. Therefore if I add that feature and release the game for
Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 I lose money because most of my
potential customers don't have the system requirements needed to run
my game. If I leave the feature out to remain backwards compatible
with XP I lose out on the feature even though I have everything up to
date. So by pandering to people who don't want to upgrade I can not
use newer Windows components and features simply because this
community for one reason or another won't upgrade and get with the
program. Kind of creating an impass as no matter what the developer
does someone looses out on features.
Cheers!
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why! I
should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not happened
yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit
compatibility,
and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it certainly
hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a reason
to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now they
haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-11 23:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles,

I do see where you are coming from, but it doesn't take into account
technical issues with trying to support an old operating system like
XP while maintaining support for newer and better operating systems
like Windows 8. Its not as simple as snapping my fingers and I can
support both. Let me give you a clear cut example of why what you
suggest is not that easy or simple to do.

Let's take audio support for example. On Windows XP the standard audio
library for games is Microsoft DirectSound 8. Its got some bugs, but
is stable enough on XP to use for games and most game developers use
it. However, when it comes to Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8
DirectSound support is broken. In particular the 3d virtualization
doesn't work correctly, and because DirectSound is deprecated there
are not going to be any updates or bug fixes for DirectSound. So
assuming I write a cool game with 3d audio support using DirectSound
it will work just fine on XP, but will have problems on Vista, Windows
7, and Windows 8 all because DirectSound 8 is buggy on those
platforms. So clearly developing games for the majority of users using
XP won't be my best choice, because people running newer versions of
Windows will have bugs in their games as a result of that decision.
Since I personally use Windows 7 and Windows 8 I wouldn't want
DirectSound for such a game.

Well, there is a solution, but it favors the newer Windows users over
those running XP. I could use the new audio library XAudio2, which has
some bugs, but the 5.1 surround sound and 3d audio support on Windows
8 is excellent. The problem is while I resolve the problem for Windows
8 users by switching to XAudio2 there are not going to be any more
updates for XAudio2 on Windows XP any bugs in the version for XP that
are there will never get fixed because XP is about to get scrapped. So
I don't think XP users will like that solution either. Do you really
want a game using a new audio library that has known bugs on XP?

So I'd like to know how you personally would resolve that problem
without rewriting the game for two different Windows platforms using
two different audio libraries. Would you write a game for XP knowing
that DirectSound does not work on Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows
8, etc or would you write a game using XAudio2 knowing that it works
reasonably well on new versions of Windows, but has known bugs on XP
and will not be updated on XP?

Well, we are looking into other solutions like OpenAL instead of
DirectSound or XAudio2, but I think you get my point. There are often
technical reasons why a developer might want to drop a certain
platform or library because they are not compatible with the new
operating system, and going back to the old software isn't always the
best option long term. So that's why writing games for XP isn't always
the best thing to do no matter how many users use it.

Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
In that case, how about catering to the majority of your customers by
developing what they can use? Seems like you have a choice, here; develop
what can be used by those who upgrade as you want them to do and lose the
majority of possible income, or develop for the majority of your customers
and lose out on the minority who decide to become more up to date. It
doesn't take much thought on which way to go if money is your goal. If 70
to 80 percent of my customers use Apple equipment, I'm going to develop
Apple software to sell to them. It does not make sense to sell to the other
20 or 30 percent in order to stay current with technology just for the sake
of staying current.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
Charles Rivard
2013-09-12 00:01:35 UTC
Permalink
I would write for what suits the majority of my customer base.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Charles,
I do see where you are coming from, but it doesn't take into account
technical issues with trying to support an old operating system like
XP while maintaining support for newer and better operating systems
like Windows 8. Its not as simple as snapping my fingers and I can
support both. Let me give you a clear cut example of why what you
suggest is not that easy or simple to do.
Let's take audio support for example. On Windows XP the standard audio
library for games is Microsoft DirectSound 8. Its got some bugs, but
is stable enough on XP to use for games and most game developers use
it. However, when it comes to Windows Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8
DirectSound support is broken. In particular the 3d virtualization
doesn't work correctly, and because DirectSound is deprecated there
are not going to be any updates or bug fixes for DirectSound. So
assuming I write a cool game with 3d audio support using DirectSound
it will work just fine on XP, but will have problems on Vista, Windows
7, and Windows 8 all because DirectSound 8 is buggy on those
platforms. So clearly developing games for the majority of users using
XP won't be my best choice, because people running newer versions of
Windows will have bugs in their games as a result of that decision.
Since I personally use Windows 7 and Windows 8 I wouldn't want
DirectSound for such a game.
Well, there is a solution, but it favors the newer Windows users over
those running XP. I could use the new audio library XAudio2, which has
some bugs, but the 5.1 surround sound and 3d audio support on Windows
8 is excellent. The problem is while I resolve the problem for Windows
8 users by switching to XAudio2 there are not going to be any more
updates for XAudio2 on Windows XP any bugs in the version for XP that
are there will never get fixed because XP is about to get scrapped. So
I don't think XP users will like that solution either. Do you really
want a game using a new audio library that has known bugs on XP?
So I'd like to know how you personally would resolve that problem
without rewriting the game for two different Windows platforms using
two different audio libraries. Would you write a game for XP knowing
that DirectSound does not work on Windows Vista, Windows 7, or Windows
8, etc or would you write a game using XAudio2 knowing that it works
reasonably well on new versions of Windows, but has known bugs on XP
and will not be updated on XP?
Well, we are looking into other solutions like OpenAL instead of
DirectSound or XAudio2, but I think you get my point. There are often
technical reasons why a developer might want to drop a certain
platform or library because they are not compatible with the new
operating system, and going back to the old software isn't always the
best option long term. So that's why writing games for XP isn't always
the best thing to do no matter how many users use it.
Cheers!
Post by Charles Rivard
In that case, how about catering to the majority of your customers by
developing what they can use? Seems like you have a choice, here; develop
what can be used by those who upgrade as you want them to do and lose the
majority of possible income, or develop for the majority of your customers
and lose out on the minority who decide to become more up to date. It
doesn't take much thought on which way to go if money is your goal. If 70
to 80 percent of my customers use Apple equipment, I'm going to develop
Apple software to sell to them. It does not make sense to sell to the other
20 or 30 percent in order to stay current with technology just for the sake
of staying current.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Cara Quinn
2013-09-12 03:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Charles, though I'm not Thomas I will say that this is part of the issue. He doesn't completely have a choice in this matter. If he were to develop for the majority of users who will not update for whatever reason, then he will be in fact, putting himself in the exact same situation of needing to run dead-end systems and technologies.

This also then brings up the issue of Thomas then needing to purchase extra systems so that he can have a working current system for his own use.

If someone were paying him to work on these projects and providing him with appropriate systems, software etc for him to develop on, then this would be a different story but this is simply not the case. I do not hear of benefactors stepping up to offer him systems on which to do this work.

So this becomes a case of Thomas needing to spend a bunch more money to make up for the masses who will not update.

Does this make sense and is this something you would do?

Thanks,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Sep 11, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Charles Rivard <wee1sman at fidnet.com> wrote:

In that case, how about catering to the majority of your customers by developing what they can use? Seems like you have a choice, here; develop what can be used by those who upgrade as you want them to do and lose the majority of possible income, or develop for the majority of your customers and lose out on the minority who decide to become more up to date. It doesn't take much thought on which way to go if money is your goal. If 70 to 80 percent of my customers use Apple equipment, I'm going to develop Apple software to sell to them. It does not make sense to sell to the other 20 or 30 percent in order to stay current with technology just for the sake of staying current.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, as you pointed out there is no need for us to dreg up the why
upgrade debate because we have been down that road before, and there
isn't anything new I can really say that hasn't already been said
before. Plus while I personally feel XP users are doing themselves a
disservice in the long run by not upgrading there isn't anything I can
say to convince them of that if they are dead set against it. A person
convinced against their will is of the same opinion still so there is
little point in trying.
All I will say is there are advantages in upgrading weather a user
such as yourself think they are worthwhile or not. There are features
I as a game developer could use that would come in handy on say
Windows 8 that isn't available on Windows XP which would come in handy
for games and is one reason I might decide against supporting XP for
certain titles.
For example, one feature available in SAPI 5.3, 5.4, and SAPI 5.5 is
SFML tags. These are little special tags that allows me to control the
pitch, volume, pauses, and over all tone of the SAPI voice while
speaking. The new SAPI 5.5 voices are very expressive when these SFML
tags are used, and those tags could be imbedded into a game using SAPI
to show excitement when a player scores or can speak in a low ominous
voice when a player dies. SAPI 5.1 and the voices like Mike, Mary, and
Sam for XP doesn't have this feature and are rather robotic when
speaking. Although, there aren't any SAPI games that use this SFML
tagging feature new games could certainly do so if the developer is
willing to scrap the notion of supporting XP. So that is where I get a
bit frustrated as a developer.
So Microsoft has added this tagging feature in newer versions of SAPI,
but a huge percentage of the blind can not use it because they are
running XP. Therefore if I add that feature and release the game for
Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 I lose money because most of my
potential customers don't have the system requirements needed to run
my game. If I leave the feature out to remain backwards compatible
with XP I lose out on the feature even though I have everything up to
date. So by pandering to people who don't want to upgrade I can not
use newer Windows components and features simply because this
community for one reason or another won't upgrade and get with the
program. Kind of creating an impass as no matter what the developer
does someone looses out on features.
Cheers!
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why! I
should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not happened
yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit compatibility,
and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it certainly
hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a reason
to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now they
haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Bryan Peterson
2013-09-12 03:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Well said Cara.



Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
-----Original Message-----
From: Cara Quinn
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 9:11 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users

Hi Charles, though I'm not Thomas I will say that this is part of the issue.
He doesn't completely have a choice in this matter. If he were to develop
for the majority of users who will not update for whatever reason, then he
will be in fact, putting himself in the exact same situation of needing to
run dead-end systems and technologies.

This also then brings up the issue of Thomas then needing to purchase extra
systems so that he can have a working current system for his own use.

If someone were paying him to work on these projects and providing him with
appropriate systems, software etc for him to develop on, then this would be
a different story but this is simply not the case. I do not hear of
benefactors stepping up to offer him systems on which to do this work.

So this becomes a case of Thomas needing to spend a bunch more money to make
up for the masses who will not update.

Does this make sense and is this something you would do?

Thanks,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

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On Sep 11, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Charles Rivard <wee1sman at fidnet.com> wrote:

In that case, how about catering to the majority of your customers by
developing what they can use? Seems like you have a choice, here; develop
what can be used by those who upgrade as you want them to do and lose the
majority of possible income, or develop for the majority of your customers
and lose out on the minority who decide to become more up to date. It
doesn't take much thought on which way to go if money is your goal. If 70
to 80 percent of my customers use Apple equipment, I'm going to develop
Apple software to sell to them. It does not make sense to sell to the other
20 or 30 percent in order to stay current with technology just for the sake
of staying current.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, as you pointed out there is no need for us to dreg up the why
upgrade debate because we have been down that road before, and there
isn't anything new I can really say that hasn't already been said
before. Plus while I personally feel XP users are doing themselves a
disservice in the long run by not upgrading there isn't anything I can
say to convince them of that if they are dead set against it. A person
convinced against their will is of the same opinion still so there is
little point in trying.
All I will say is there are advantages in upgrading weather a user
such as yourself think they are worthwhile or not. There are features
I as a game developer could use that would come in handy on say
Windows 8 that isn't available on Windows XP which would come in handy
for games and is one reason I might decide against supporting XP for
certain titles.
For example, one feature available in SAPI 5.3, 5.4, and SAPI 5.5 is
SFML tags. These are little special tags that allows me to control the
pitch, volume, pauses, and over all tone of the SAPI voice while
speaking. The new SAPI 5.5 voices are very expressive when these SFML
tags are used, and those tags could be imbedded into a game using SAPI
to show excitement when a player scores or can speak in a low ominous
voice when a player dies. SAPI 5.1 and the voices like Mike, Mary, and
Sam for XP doesn't have this feature and are rather robotic when
speaking. Although, there aren't any SAPI games that use this SFML
tagging feature new games could certainly do so if the developer is
willing to scrap the notion of supporting XP. So that is where I get a
bit frustrated as a developer.
So Microsoft has added this tagging feature in newer versions of SAPI,
but a huge percentage of the blind can not use it because they are
running XP. Therefore if I add that feature and release the game for
Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 I lose money because most of my
potential customers don't have the system requirements needed to run
my game. If I leave the feature out to remain backwards compatible
with XP I lose out on the feature even though I have everything up to
date. So by pandering to people who don't want to upgrade I can not
use newer Windows components and features simply because this
community for one reason or another won't upgrade and get with the
program. Kind of creating an impass as no matter what the developer
does someone looses out on features.
Cheers!
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why! I
should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not happened
yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit
compatibility,
and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it certainly
hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a reason
to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now they
haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
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Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 03:43:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cara,

Once again you always seem to cut to the heart of the matter. You hit
upon the main reason why I don't want to really support XP if I don't
have to.

Although, I am not rich by any sense of the word I do often set aside
money for upgrades and try to keep current so that both my technical
support and my development skills for Windows are current. Its kind of
a business necessity for me. So its not totally by choice that I
upgrade and stay current with Windows releases. However, using a
virtual machine will not really work out for testing, and I do not own
a dedicated XP machine. That computer died about three or four years
back and I don't want to pay to replace it seeing as XP is a dead-end
technology absolutely of no use to me other than supporting some games
for people who don't want to upgrade. So I don't really see any point
in supporting XP for me personally as it is just one more expense I
could just as well do without.

Cheers!
Post by Cara Quinn
Hi Charles, though I'm not Thomas I will say that this is part of the issue.
He doesn't completely have a choice in this matter. If he were to develop
for the majority of users who will not update for whatever reason, then he
will be in fact, putting himself in the exact same situation of needing to
run dead-end systems and technologies.
This also then brings up the issue of Thomas then needing to purchase extra
systems so that he can have a working current system for his own use.
If someone were paying him to work on these projects and providing him with
appropriate systems, software etc for him to develop on, then this would be
a different story but this is simply not the case. I do not hear of
benefactors stepping up to offer him systems on which to do this work.
So this becomes a case of Thomas needing to spend a bunch more money to make
up for the masses who will not update.
Does this make sense and is this something you would do?
Thanks,
Cara :)
---
http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
Follow me on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/ModelCara
Ken The PionEar
2013-09-12 01:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Hey Tom,
maybe making a demo of these voices and what they can do would help? I
haven't gotten to try Windows 8, and am certainly not opposed to that, nor
would I be oppsed to 7 if it would run at at decent speed. I've been wanting
to use s good TTS to read some of my books to an audio file, and maybe some
of these new voices is the way to go. So is there a demo somewhere on the
net?
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ward" <thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Well, as you pointed out there is no need for us to dreg up the why
upgrade debate because we have been down that road before, and there
isn't anything new I can really say that hasn't already been said
before. Plus while I personally feel XP users are doing themselves a
disservice in the long run by not upgrading there isn't anything I can
say to convince them of that if they are dead set against it. A person
convinced against their will is of the same opinion still so there is
little point in trying.
All I will say is there are advantages in upgrading weather a user
such as yourself think they are worthwhile or not. There are features
I as a game developer could use that would come in handy on say
Windows 8 that isn't available on Windows XP which would come in handy
for games and is one reason I might decide against supporting XP for
certain titles.
For example, one feature available in SAPI 5.3, 5.4, and SAPI 5.5 is
SFML tags. These are little special tags that allows me to control the
pitch, volume, pauses, and over all tone of the SAPI voice while
speaking. The new SAPI 5.5 voices are very expressive when these SFML
tags are used, and those tags could be imbedded into a game using SAPI
to show excitement when a player scores or can speak in a low ominous
voice when a player dies. SAPI 5.1 and the voices like Mike, Mary, and
Sam for XP doesn't have this feature and are rather robotic when
speaking. Although, there aren't any SAPI games that use this SFML
tagging feature new games could certainly do so if the developer is
willing to scrap the notion of supporting XP. So that is where I get a
bit frustrated as a developer.
So Microsoft has added this tagging feature in newer versions of SAPI,
but a huge percentage of the blind can not use it because they are
running XP. Therefore if I add that feature and release the game for
Vista, Windows 7, and Windows 8 I lose money because most of my
potential customers don't have the system requirements needed to run
my game. If I leave the feature out to remain backwards compatible
with XP I lose out on the feature even though I have everything up to
date. So by pandering to people who don't want to upgrade I can not
use newer Windows components and features simply because this
community for one reason or another won't upgrade and get with the
program. Kind of creating an impass as no matter what the developer
does someone looses out on features.
Cheers!
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why! I
should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not happened
yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit
compatibility,
and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it certainly
hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a reason
to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now they
haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 01:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ken,

Not sure if there is a demo on the net of the new Microsoft voices
using the SFML markup tags or not. Although, I'll look around and see
if I can find or make any sometime.

Cheers!
Post by Ken The PionEar
Hey Tom,
maybe making a demo of these voices and what they can do would help? I
haven't gotten to try Windows 8, and am certainly not opposed to that, nor
would I be oppsed to 7 if it would run at at decent speed. I've been wanting
to use s good TTS to read some of my books to an audio file, and maybe some
of these new voices is the way to go. So is there a demo somewhere on the
net?
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
Ken The PionEar
2013-09-12 01:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Well-said Dark! My son had a brand-spanking-new computer from his online
school. It came with Windows 7, and was about as fast as a Commodore 64.
Okay, I'm exaggerating *slightly* but you get the point. By the way, I know
just how fast the computer itself was because of how smoothly it played
games--but go to delete a file or open a folder or any other W7 operation
and count the seconds as they drag on. There's no debate that 7 is better
than Vista, but XP is still the champ in my book. Even on my slow netbook,
which can't play the really complex games very smoothly, XP still does its
thing seemlessly.
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
----- Original Message -----
From: "dark" <dark at xgam.org>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" <gamers at audyssey.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Note to XP users
Post by dark
I'm quite aware sapi 5.5, advanced net framework etc aren't available for
xp, but I've still! not been convinced that there really is any reason to
upgrade since practically speaking it seems all I get is a more irritating
interface and less compatibility with a good few games, and though these
components don't work, does anything good actually use them?
If microsoft want to sell me a new operating system, give me a reason why!
I should use one, something it does better than xp, and no, having flashy
ribbons and the like isn't, indeed to me that's a negative (I still think
microsoft should've had the option for an xp like interface).
If lots of developers use these new components to create better games and
such, well maybe that would be a reason to upgrade, but that's not
happened yet and I don't really see why i should say goodbye to 32 bit
compatibility, and! stagger around a more stupid interface until that
reason is there.
i don't doubt that will happen at some point in the future, but it
certainly hasn't yet, and especially not from microsoft.
I don't want to start this debate again, since I think everything has been
said that can be said, however I'm just pointing out there are perfectly
good reasons to stick with xp, and bigger numbers and newer versions of
components that most people only use to run other software aren't! a
reason to upgrade if they're not used for anything good, which up to now
they haven't been.
Beware the grue!
Dark.
---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Gamers-unsubscribe at audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers at audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
list,
please send E-mail to Gamers-owner at audyssey.org.
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 01:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ken,

Well, to be fair I noticed a person's screen reader has a lot to do
with performance and memory plays a big part too. Jaws for example
really slows down a system and I didn't realize exactly how much until
I began using NVDA full time. As far as memory goes if you have
anything less than 2 GB of ram in that Windows 7 box it will run like
crap. Actually, it doesn't really run super good until you throw 3 or
4 GB at it, and I guess from a performance comparison that is pretty
bad. Although, to Microsoft's credit Windows 8 not only starts faster
than Windows 7 it runs smoother, faster, and is all around less of a
performance hog so things are getting better not worse as far as newer
Windows operating systems goes. Although, I somehow doubt the veracity
of a new Windows 7 laptop running like a Commodore 64. :D

Cheers!
Post by Ken The PionEar
Well-said Dark! My son had a brand-spanking-new computer from his online
school. It came with Windows 7, and was about as fast as a Commodore 64.
Okay, I'm exaggerating *slightly* but you get the point. By the way, I know
just how fast the computer itself was because of how smoothly it played
games--but go to delete a file or open a folder or any other W7 operation
and count the seconds as they drag on. There's no debate that 7 is better
than Vista, but XP is still the champ in my book. Even on my slow netbook,
which can't play the really complex games very smoothly, XP still does its
thing seemlessly.
Check out my games at
www.ThePionEar.net
and my music, and that of my band, at
www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html .
Also, check out, "The Believer and Skeptic Show," at iTunes!
If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook,
(KenWDowney,) or write me at kenWDowney at me.com .
James Bartlett
2013-09-12 01:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Thomas

I was just asking because my Win7 harddrive took a crap and I can't get
a new one for a little bit. So I'm stock with my old XP for now, but I was
just asking to see if it was possible. to see if I could get BGT to use SAPI
5.5 as it's default tts voices.

bfn
James
Thomas Ward
2013-09-12 01:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi James,

That's quite understandable, and sorry to pick on you personally. I
guess I was just feeling a bit peeved at the number of blind users
that want this or that for XP knowing that it is A, out of date, B, no
longer to be supported, and C, probably not available for XP anyway. I
just wanted people to think a bit before asking questions that should
seem rather obvious considering the status of the situation. :D


Cheers!
Post by James Bartlett
Hi Thomas
I was just asking because my Win7 harddrive took a crap and I can't get
a new one for a little bit. So I'm stock with my old XP for now, but I was
just asking to see if it was possible. to see if I could get BGT to use SAPI
5.5 as it's default tts voices.
bfn
James
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