Blog: A Brief History of the Android App Store Race

Discussion:

Shane Isbell

2009-02-16 06:56:07 UTC

I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find this
interesting: http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race

Muthu Ramadoss

2009-02-16 07:16:25 UTC

Permalink

Interesting blog. Thanks for rejigging our memory with 2008 market rat race,
its been a fascinating journey so far and its only the beginning. Good luck.

take care,
Muthu Ramadoss.

http://linkedin.com/in/tellibitz +91-9840348914
http://androidrocks.in - Android Consulting.

Post by Shane Isbell
I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find this
interesting: http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race
Shane

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Al Sutton

2009-02-16 08:22:19 UTC

Permalink

Looks like a good coverage of the road to where we are now, it's always
useful to see things like this because it allows us all to take a step
back and see the bigger picture.

Al.
http://andappstore.com/

Post by Shane Isbell
I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find
http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race
Shane

Muthu Ramadoss

2009-02-16 08:33:02 UTC

Permalink

Al,

How's the traffic to AndAppStore.com? Is the competition keeping you busy?
If you can, please share. Thanks.

take care,
Muthu Ramadoss.

http://linkedin.com/in/tellibitz +91-9840348914
http://androidrocks.in - Android Consulting.

Post by Al Sutton
Looks like a good coverage of the road to where we are now, it's always
useful to see things like this because it allows us all to take a step
back and see the bigger picture.
Al.
http://andappstore.com/

Post by Shane Isbell
I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find
http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race
Shane

Al Sutton

2009-02-16 08:48:24 UTC

Permalink

After the initial buzz of the Android release traffic dropped and
stabalised around 30% below the G1 release level (as expected). The
inclusion of the AndAppStore client in Koolus FreeRunner Android
distribution caused traffic to jump to levels above those seen when the
G1 was launched and so far have stayed at that level for the past couple
of weeks.

Koolu are serious about their Android plans so I expect traffic to
increase in the coming months, and given that the AndAppStore client is
available to any porting group wanting to include it in their
distribution (as Otto Solares Cabrera did with NITDroid), there may be
further jumps upwards as new groups release distributions including the
client (and if anyone out there is doing that please let me know and
I'll make sure a note is put up to publicise the distribution).

Al.
http://andappstore.com/

Post by Muthu Ramadoss
Al,
How's the traffic to AndAppStore.com? Is the competition keeping you
busy? If you can, please share. Thanks.
take care,
Muthu Ramadoss.
http://linkedin.com/in/tellibitz +91-9840348914
http://androidrocks.in - Android Consulting.
Looks like a good coverage of the road to where we are now, it's always
useful to see things like this because it allows us all to take a step
back and see the bigger picture.
Al.
http://andappstore.com/

Post by Shane Isbell
I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find
http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race
Shane

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Eric Sinclair

2009-02-16 12:43:35 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for the interesting history of the developments across the
space, including Google's.

The one question which has not been answered in my mid is how each of
these stores benefits the end-user (not the app developer or
marketer), versus the Android market distributed on the core handset.
Is this to benefit those handset vendors that dont ally with Google
(in which case the G1 is not the battle to fight for?), or is there a
compelling reason I as a US or UK user would want to install a second
application to manage location, downloading and payment for
applications?

-Eric

Post by Shane Isbell
I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find this
interesting: http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race
Shane

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http://www.kittyjoyce.com/eric/log/

Al Sutton

2009-02-16 14:58:23 UTC

Permalink

Eric,

From what I can tell one of Koolus main reasons for bundling the
AndAppStore client with their FreeRunner distribution was requests from
users for access to an app directory, so part of the reason for the
alternative markets existence is because there is a market for them.

Also, like any application you may find that one of the systems is more
to your liking than the others. You might find the UI or comment
recommendation system in AndAppStore something you prefer, or you
SlideMEs UI and purchasing system more to your liking, or you may want
to stay with Market and wade through hundreds of apps to find one that
suits you.

There is rarely a one app pleases all situation, so the advantage to the
the user is most likely to be which one they like and which one listens
to their feedback.

Al.
http://andappstore.com/

Post by Eric Sinclair
Thanks for the interesting history of the developments across the
space, including Google's.
The one question which has not been answered in my mid is how each of
these stores benefits the end-user (not the app developer or
marketer), versus the Android market distributed on the core handset.
Is this to benefit those handset vendors that dont ally with Google
(in which case the G1 is not the battle to fight for?), or is there a
compelling reason I as a US or UK user would want to install a second
application to manage location, downloading and payment for
applications?
-Eric

Post by Shane Isbell
I outlined some of the key events over the last year. Some may find this
interesting: http://slideme.org/blog/brief-history-android-app-store-race
Shane

b***@gmail.com

2009-02-16 09:54:42 UTC

Permalink

I'd prefer these alternative stores, but unfortunately currently it's
pointless. My application was downloaded from Slideme <200 times, and
from Android Market >20000 times.

Shane Isbell

2009-02-16 19:53:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by b***@gmail.com
I'd prefer these alternative stores, but unfortunately currently it's
pointless. My application was downloaded from Slideme <200 times, and
from Android Market >20000 times.

We are very aware of this problem. Just within the last week, we've begun
getting the word out to users about SlideME. The billing solution and
high-availability buried us for 3 months. We purposely kept a low profile
with users until we finished this. So bear with us, as we get the word out.
We've got a new site rolling out next month that will be more user-centric.
We've got SlideVille also rolling out that allows users to purchase from an
iTunes like client and sync to the G1. So we are building momentum.

Thanks,
Shane

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Jay-andro

2009-02-17 19:22:37 UTC

Permalink

Guys, I want your take on this: Is it a violation of the Android
developer's T&C to make your app available on these alternate sites
like slideme and andapppstore at the same time as Android Market? Any
restriction on the price, i.e. it cannot be offered for more or less
than the Market price of the app?

Shane Isbell

2009-02-17 19:28:58 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jay-andro
Guys, I want your take on this: Is it a violation of the Android
developer's T&C to make your app available on these alternate sites
like slideme and andapppstore at the same time as Android Market? Any
restriction on the price, i.e. it cannot be offered for more or less
than the Market price of the app?

Google doesn't have any restrictions on selling the same app outside of its
Market; you can sell on alternate markets, as well as the Android Market. No
restrictions on price either.

Shane

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Cédric Berger

2009-02-17 19:58:36 UTC

Permalink

Post by Shane Isbell
Google doesn't have any restrictions on selling the same app outside of its
Market; you can sell on alternate markets, as well as the Android Market. No
restrictions on price either.

There is a restriction saying that if you have a free version with an
option to upsell a full paying version, you must sell the full version
on the Market and there only.

I do not understand exactly how it is supposed to be applied (what is
to be considered an full version of a free demo, versus another
application with different features, for example).

Al Sutton

2009-02-18 08:36:08 UTC

Permalink

I posed this question last week, and, true to form, nobody from Google
has bothered to reply.

http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/browse_thread/thread/8b18bb0f31def041/32368a6344dc45d7?lnk=gst&q=Al+Sutton+Justin#32368a6344dc45d7

Jon Colverson

2009-02-18 12:21:21 UTC

Permalink

Post by Al Sutton

I posed this question last week, and, true to form, nobody from Google
has bothered to reply.

(As you know) the agreement is here:
http://www.android.com/us/developer-distribution-agreement.html

If you need help interpreting it then you need to ask your own lawyer.
If your lawyer tells you there's something in the agreement which is
ambiguous then you could ask Google to get their lawyers to revise it,
but you'd need to point to the specific sections of the agreement that
are causing a problem.

--
Jon

Al Sutton

2009-02-18 12:32:50 UTC

Permalink

Or, if Google want to encourage people to agree to their terms, they
could clarify them. They are, after all, the ones who can tell us what
was intended by the details as opposed to paying a lawyer who will offer
another interpretation.

Al.

Post by Jon Colverson

Post by Al Sutton

I posed this question last week, and, true to form, nobody from Google
has bothered to reply.

http://www.android.com/us/developer-distribution-agreement.html
If you need help interpreting it then you need to ask your own lawyer.
If your lawyer tells you there's something in the agreement which is
ambiguous then you could ask Google to get their lawyers to revise it,
but you'd need to point to the specific sections of the agreement that
are causing a problem.
--
Jon

Jon Colverson

2009-02-18 12:56:41 UTC

Permalink

Post by Al Sutton
Or, if Google want to encourage people to agree to their terms, they
could clarify them.

Which part of the agreement makes you doubt that developers are also
allowed to use alternative stores?

--
Jon

Al Sutton

2009-02-18 18:16:54 UTC

Permalink

The last clarification I received from Justin at Google in which he said

"What is required is that if you provide an "upsell" option to a paid
version, this version must be available, and available solely through
the Android Market. "

(full mail at
http://groups.google.com/group/android-discuss/msg/57c8410cbff50bbf)

Al.

Post by Jon Colverson

Post by Al Sutton
Or, if Google want to encourage people to agree to their terms, they
could clarify them.

Which part of the agreement makes you doubt that developers are also
allowed to use alternative stores?
--
Jon

george_c

2009-02-18 13:03:03 UTC

Permalink

Those terms are there for the sake so the Android Market is not taken
advantage to promote your apps with no fee and then have the same app appear
on SlideME with a fee and earn a 98% payout. Second, you can not have an
app on the Android Market pop a message and say this is trial and go get the
full version from SlideME.
It makes sense and its fair what Android Market terms mention.

To simplify, whatever you sell your app for on Android Market should be the
same on other markets.

What is happening, is a boom from device manufacturers knocking on the door
of carriers bundling their offering with content aggregators such as
SlideME. This model will make Google, all device manufacturers, developers
all happy. Overall, Android will be everywhere and Google services
dominating on every device.

What the world needs to see including device manufacturers and carriers that
there is content out there. So get visibility wherever you can developers
is my suggestion.

George

Post by Jon Colverson

Post by Al Sutton

I posed this question last week, and, true to form, nobody from Google
has bothered to reply.

Cédric Berger

2009-02-18 13:13:21 UTC

Permalink

Post by george_c
Those terms are there for the sake so the Android Market is not taken
advantage to promote your apps with no fee and then have the same app appear
on SlideME with a fee and earn a 98% payout. Second, you can not have an
app on the Android Market pop a message and say this is trial and go get the
full version from SlideME.
It makes sense and its fair what Android Market terms mention.
To simplify, whatever you sell your app for on Android Market should be the
same on other markets.

This part is not so clear for me. Terms seems to claim that for a free
demo app (but in which cases exactly ?) the option to get the full
version must be from the Market, and _only_ there.

the related part from the agreement :
"3.3 [...] However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial
expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product
through the Payment Processor on the Market. In this Agreement, "free"
means there are no charges or fees of any kind for use of the Product.
All fees received by Developers for Products distributed via the
Market must be processed by the Market's Payment Processor."

Or is it only if the instance of free application was downloaded from
the Market ?
So if I have the same Free app from another website, then I can also
have the full version buyable from there ? (but then how can I
differenciate the origin of the first download ?)

george_c

2009-02-18 13:30:24 UTC

Permalink

Post by CÃ©dric Berger
This part is not so clear for me. Terms seems to claim that for a free
demo app (but in which cases exactly ?) the option to get the full
version must be from the Market, and _only_ there.

This is their cover to prevent you from using something like mogees and
collect fees outside of the Android Market.
So,if you plan on collecting fees externally from THAT same app that was set
with a $0 price on AM, and you use mogees or trigger a paypal to have end
users pay you directly, this wont be allowed. In such a case you will need
to use AM for all payment processing.

Nothing stops you and totally legit for you to sell trials only on AM and
full version elsewhere. But the AM trial can not promote or let end users
know that they can get the full version from xyz. End users will have to
find out their own way. I guess it will be easy for them to find out, if
they are a few markets out there only. Though I would not suggest you do
stock trials on AM and full elsewhere. Get your apps stocked and promoted
wherever you can. The industry needs to see them and start talking about
them. The more content that is out there, the more demand and more carriers
will offer Android handsets to their subscribers.

George

Post by CÃ©dric Berger
"3.3 [...] However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial
expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product
through the Payment Processor on the Market. In this Agreement, "free"
means there are no charges or fees of any kind for use of the Product.
All fees received by Developers for Products distributed via the
Market must be processed by the Market's Payment Processor."
Or is it only if the instance of free application was downloaded from
the Market ?
So if I have the same Free app from another website, then I can also
have the full version buyable from there ? (but then how can I
differenciate the origin of the first download ?)

george_c

2009-02-18 14:50:01 UTC

Permalink

Some legal confirmation from a lawyer:

"There is nothing in the Google ts a cs that prohibts a Developer from
distributing his or app in both the Google Marketplace and alternatives like
SlideMe.
There is a provision that prohibits publishing on the Google Marketplace an
App whose primary function is to facilitate distribution of Apps outside the
Google Marketplace.So SlideMe could not publish SAM on the Marketplace."
Hope this helps.

George

Post by CÃ©dric Berger
This part is not so clear for me. Terms seems to claim that for a free

Post by CÃ©dric Berger
demo app (but in which cases exactly ?) the option to get the full
version must be from the Market, and _only_ there.

This is their cover to prevent you from using something like mogees and
collect fees outside of the Android Market.
So,if you plan on collecting fees externally from THAT same app that was
set with a $0 price on AM, and you use mogees or trigger a paypal to have
end users pay you directly, this wont be allowed. In such a case you will
need to use AM for all payment processing.
Nothing stops you and totally legit for you to sell trials only on AM and
full version elsewhere. But the AM trial can not promote or let end users
know that they can get the full version from xyz. End users will have to
find out their own way. I guess it will be easy for them to find out, if
they are a few markets out there only. Though I would not suggest you do
stock trials on AM and full elsewhere. Get your apps stocked and promoted
wherever you can. The industry needs to see them and start talking about
them. The more content that is out there, the more demand and more carriers
will offer Android handsets to their subscribers.
George

b***@gmail.com

2009-02-18 15:00:21 UTC

Permalink

There's an another interesting case. I plan to distribute a free
client app for a subscription based web service. I guess it's legal,
although I distribute a free app on Android Market and collect fees
elsewhere.

george_c

2009-02-18 15:05:51 UTC

Permalink

Collect fees for subs also via AM. Then pay your subs provider once you
collect.
End users Pays via AM - you collect and Pay Subs provider or yourself keep
the $.

Post by b***@gmail.com
There's an another interesting case. I plan to distribute a free
client app for a subscription based web service. I guess it's legal,
although I distribute a free app on Android Market and collect fees
elsewhere.

b***@gmail.com

2009-02-18 17:25:45 UTC

Permalink

It'd be true for an Android only client, but the main product is a
server side service, this requires subscription, and there are free
clients for it (an Android, a desktop app, a web site, maybe iPhone,
or J2ME apps).

Post by george_c
Collect fees for subs also via AM. Then pay your subs provider once you
collect.
End users Pays via AM - you collect and Pay Subs provider or yourself keep
the $.

george_c

2009-02-18 17:34:57 UTC

Permalink

My assumption would be that this external service should be able to charge
end users directly. As long as you don't collect a fee or earn from such a
service. As always get a formal ruling or legal advise. Document it well
when you upload it to A.M and see of Google pulls it down. They shouldn't
but you never know till you try.
George

Post by b***@gmail.com
It'd be true for an Android only client, but the main product is a
server side service, this requires subscription, and there are free
clients for it (an Android, a desktop app, a web site, maybe iPhone,
or J2ME apps).

Post by george_c
Collect fees for subs also via AM. Then pay your subs provider once you
collect.
End users Pays via AM - you collect and Pay Subs provider or yourself

keep

Post by george_c
the $.

Al Sutton

2009-02-18 17:52:59 UTC

Permalink

Or make the Android app available from the site which takes the
subscriptions.

Google can't stop you offering an APK for download from your own site.

Al.

Post by george_c
My assumption would be that this external service should be able to
charge end users directly. As long as you don't collect a fee or earn
from such a service. As always get a formal ruling or legal advise.
Document it well when you upload it to A.M and see of Google pulls it
down. They shouldn't but you never know till you try.
George
It'd be true for an Android only client, but the main product is a
server side service, this requires subscription, and there are free
clients for it (an Android, a desktop app, a web site, maybe iPhone,
or J2ME apps).

Post by george_c
Collect fees for subs also via AM. Then pay your subs provider

once you

Post by george_c
collect.
End users Pays via AM - you collect and Pay Subs provider or

yourself keep

Post by george_c
the $.

Al Sutton

2009-02-18 18:05:11 UTC

Permalink

Does that cover the modifications to the T&Cs for paid for apps, or was
that in relation to free apps?

Al.

Post by george_c
"There is nothing in the Google ts a cs that prohibts a Developer from
distributing his or app in both the Google Marketplace and
alternatives like SlideMe.
There is a provision that prohibits publishing on the Google
Marketplace an App whose primary function is to facilitate
distribution of Apps outside the Google Marketplace.
So SlideMe could not publish SAM on the Marketplace."
Hope this helps.
George
This part is not so clear for me. Terms seems to claim that for a free
demo app (but in which cases exactly ?) the option to get the full
version must be from the Market, and _only_ there.
This is their cover to prevent you from using something
like mogees and collect fees outside of the Android Market.
So,if you plan on collecting fees externally from THAT same app
that was set with a $0 price on AM, and you use mogees or trigger
a paypal to have end users pay you directly, this wont be allowed.
In such a case you will need to use AM for all payment processing.
Nothing stops you and totally legit for you to sell trials only on
AM and full version elsewhere. But the AM trial can not promote or
let end users know that they can get the full version from xyz.
End users will have to find out their own way. I guess it will be
easy for them to find out, if they are a few markets out there
only. Though I would not suggest you do stock trials on AM and
full elsewhere. Get your apps stocked and promoted wherever you
can. The industry needs to see them and start talking about them.
The more content that is out there, the more demand and more
carriers will offer Android handsets to their subscribers.
George
"3.3 [...] However, if you want to collect fees after the free trial
expires, you must collect all fees for the full version of the Product
through the Payment Processor on the Market. In this
Agreement, "free"
means there are no charges or fees of any kind for use of the Product.
All fees received by Developers for Products distributed via the
Market must be processed by the Market's Payment Processor."
Or is it only if the instance of free application was
downloaded from
the Market ?
So if I have the same Free app from another website, then I can also
have the full version buyable from there ? (but then how can I
differenciate the origin of the first download ?)

maribou

2009-02-18 16:14:28 UTC

Permalink

Shane, your blog was a very interesting read. I have to disagree with
you on the "Googleitis" part. The sad truth is that none of the
application delivery mechanisms can compete with the one that comes
pre-installed on every phone. An average user is too busy/lazy/
distrustful to use anything else. As a developer, I am not interested
in publishing my products on the market where even free applications
get only a few hundred downloads.

Unfortunately, Google's Checkout limitations prevent non-US/non-UK
developers from making any money on Android apps. That leaves me, as
a Canadian developer with the following choices:
(1) Look for a US/UK partner - already failed.
(2) Bundle a PayPal checkout with my program - will be shutdown by
Google, no sense even trying.
(3) Publish on slideme, Al's app store, and any other third-party
market I can find - not enough potential revenue. Moreover, should I
come up with a good idea for an app, I could potentially lose it there
to some developer with access to Google Checkout.
(4) Develop for other mobile platforms, which don't have ridiculous
restrictions.

From what it looks like, I'm better off with option (4). And it

doesn't make me happy whatsoever.

Al Sutton

2009-02-18 18:03:13 UTC

Permalink

I agree there is possibly a limited market on AndAppStore at the moment,
but Koolu have put the AndAppStore client into their Android
distribution and they're looking to have it installed on half a million
phones by the end of the year.

All that said it is very much up to you and whether your business can
handle holding out and waiting for that to happen.

Al.

Post by maribou
Shane, your blog was a very interesting read. I have to disagree with
you on the "Googleitis" part. The sad truth is that none of the
application delivery mechanisms can compete with the one that comes
pre-installed on every phone. An average user is too busy/lazy/
distrustful to use anything else. As a developer, I am not interested
in publishing my products on the market where even free applications
get only a few hundred downloads.
Unfortunately, Google's Checkout limitations prevent non-US/non-UK
developers from making any money on Android apps. That leaves me, as
(1) Look for a US/UK partner - already failed.
(2) Bundle a PayPal checkout with my program - will be shutdown by
Google, no sense even trying.
(3) Publish on slideme, Al's app store, and any other third-party
market I can find - not enough potential revenue. Moreover, should I
come up with a good idea for an app, I could potentially lose it there
to some developer with access to Google Checkout.
(4) Develop for other mobile platforms, which don't have ridiculous
restrictions.
From what it looks like, I'm better off with option (4). And it
doesn't make me happy whatsoever.

Shane Isbell

2009-02-18 18:13:17 UTC

Permalink

You are not the first to say this. We are hearing this a lot. All I can say
is please be patient: the Android market is still in the early stages.

We will keep plugging on building up the social network between devs and
users, as this is our focus right now. If there is anything we can do to
help in areas of communication between devs and users, as well as dev-to-dev
communication, advertising of skills, advertising of apps and so on, let us
know, throwing out your ideas. We can assist in many of these things,
external to markets and downloads.

Shane

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