Discussion:
Land Speed Record Attempt
(too old to reply)
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
A British team is having a go at the land speed record for a steam driven
car.

Apparently the existing record of 127.659 mph was set by an American in
1906.

http://www.britishsteamcarappeal.co.uk/

They're looking for sponsorship, a pound (£1) a go.
Ed Chilada
18 years ago
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 10:49:13 +0100, "Brimstone"
Post by Brimstone
A British team is having a go at the land speed record for a steam driven
car.
Apparently the existing record of 127.659 mph was set by an American in
1906.
There's always a world record available if you can think of something
obscure enough.
unknown
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Brimstone
A British team is having a go at the land speed record for a steam driven
car.
Apparently the existing record of 127.659 mph was set by an American in
1906.
http://www.britishsteamcarappeal.co.uk/
They're looking for sponsorship, a pound (£1) a go.
They're going the wrong way about it. A hydrogen peroxide fuelled rocket
is steam powered.
Knight Of The Road
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by unknown
They're going the wrong way about it. A hydrogen peroxide fuelled rocket
is steam powered.
Yes, but this is pedantic. A French TGV is steam powered if you follow the
wires back far enough.

I think it's a given that the attempt refers to propulsion by an onboard
external combustion engine.
--
Regards, Vince.

International Trucking -

Magnificent Millau- a driver's eye view (NEW! 22nd June 2007)


Barcelona Motor Show pull-out (NEW! 23rd June 2007)-
http://tinyurl.com/2pnnu3
Niall Wallace
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Knight Of The Road
Post by unknown
They're going the wrong way about it. A hydrogen peroxide fuelled rocket
is steam powered.
Yes, but this is pedantic. A French TGV is steam powered if you follow the
wires back far enough.
I think it's a given that the attempt refers to propulsion by an onboard
external combustion engine.
You can power an external combustion engine any way you want but the usual
way of turning the energy source into movement is steam actuated pistons.

Interesting that the Steam LSR was set much much earlier and a tad faster
than the Steam Locomotive speed record (Mallard, 1930s, 126mph)
Mark Goodge
18 years ago
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:16:05 +0100, Niall Wallace put finger to
...
It would be easy to beat Mallard's record if you wanted to. The
difference between that and the Steam LSR is that Mallard was an
ordinary production model designed and built for everyday use, not a
one-off constucted specifically for the purpose of breaking records.

Mark
--
http://www.BritishSurnames.co.uk - What does your surname say about you?
"I let the melody shine, let it cleanse my mind, I feel free now"
m***@hotmail.com
18 years ago
Permalink
...
That, and the small matter of the 240 tons of train ;-)

MBQ
Brimstone
18 years ago
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...
As well as travelling over a normal road, not a specially prepared or
reserved one.
m***@hotmail.com
18 years ago
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...
Oh, the line was certainly cleared for Mallard's run. The record
attempt was officially sanctioned, hence the specific choice of
Mallard for it's free steaming properties and the inclusion of a
dynamometer car in the train.

MBQ
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
...
Quite true that the line ahead was cleared so that the test train didn't
catch up with the preceeding train, but I was referring to the fact that
Bonneville Salt Lake Flats are not a road over which normal traffic passes
which was the case with the track that Mallard was using.
TripleS
18 years ago
Permalink
...
I heard that Mallard's speed record was achieved at the cost of some
mechanical damage, though I never knew what it amounted to. What
happened, did it knock out some coupling rod or connecting rod bearings,
or something like that?

Best wishes all,
Dave.
NM
18 years ago
Permalink
...
AIUI Mallard was selected because it was nearly new and not suffering
significant wear related performance.
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by NM
AIUI Mallard was selected because it was nearly new and not suffering
significant wear related performance.
And double chimney, the streamlining was also internal!
John Wright
18 years ago
Permalink
...
The centre big end went - the A4 was a three cylinder machine with
centre derived motion. Part of that derived motion had not been set up
properly. Had it been

a: It might have gone even faster

b: It would not have bust a big end.
--
John Wright
TripleS
18 years ago
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...
Ah, thank you, John. Shame about the damage, but interesting all the same.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
The centre big end went - the A4 was a three cylinder machine with centre
derived motion. Part of that derived motion had not been set up properly.
Had it been
a: It might have gone even faster
b: It would not have bust a big end.
If the worst ever happens (losing the record) the NRM once said they would
allow it another go at the speed record as when they made the comment it was
in better condition.
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
...
The middle big end ran hot, but it was a known failing on the A4s until they
adopted a modified design in the 1950s. IIRC, the LNER fitted a device into
the bearing so that if it ran hot the driver got a distictive smell in the
cab.
®i©ardo
18 years ago
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...
...and he then changed his trousers.
--
Moving things in still pictures!
TripleS
18 years ago
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...
...modified design in the 1950s? That took a long time to solve then.
The record run was in 1938 wasn't it?

Best wishes all,
Dave.
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
...
IIRC, an ex GWR engineer was posted to Doncaster and recommended using the
GW's design. After that no more problems.
Post by TripleS
The record run was in 1938 wasn't it?
Indeed it was.

But don't forget that they were independent companies until 1947 and like
independent companies in any line of business, one doesn't share one's
methods with one's rivals nor does one go asking for their help.
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Brimstone
IIRC, an ex GWR engineer was posted to Doncaster and recommended using the
GW's design. After that no more problems.
Of course
Post by Brimstone
But don't forget that they were independent companies until 1947 and like
independent companies in any line of business, one doesn't share one's
methods with one's rivals nor does one go asking for their help.
Mind you the A1s became A3s due to GWR influence
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by Brimstone
IIRC, an ex GWR engineer was posted to Doncaster and recommended
using the GW's design. After that no more problems.
Of course
Post by Brimstone
But don't forget that they were independent companies until 1947
and like independent companies in any line of business, one doesn't
share one's methods with one's rivals nor does one go asking for
their help.
Mind you the A1s became A3s due to GWR influence
Quite, that was following the 1925 Locomotive Exchange.
m***@hotmail.com
18 years ago
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...
But people moved around, hence the GWR influence when Stanier moved to
the LMS.

MBQ
Brimstone
18 years ago
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Quite true, the same happens now, but that's not the same as one company
sharing info with another.
John Wright
18 years ago
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Stanier was a Swindon man, trained under Churchward.
--
John Wright
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
...modified design in the 1950s? That took a long time to solve then. The
record run was in 1938 wasn't it?
Especially when it was precipitated by Mallards record
John Wright
18 years ago
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...
They didn't know what they were doing in a real sense - that was around
the time they constructed the Duke of Gloucester, which was expected to
be as good as the A4s and Stanier pacifics, but it wasn't. It's only
reached its full potential in preservation.
--
John Wright
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
...
The significant aspect to the DoG was that the construction didn't match the
drawings, there were significant obstructions to the free flow of air and
exhaust as built but not as designed. The loco was rebuilt to design spec
and, as you suggest, is now a good performer.
Clive.
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by John Wright
They didn't know what they were doing in a real sense - that was around
the time they constructed the Duke of Gloucester, which was expected to
be as good as the A4s and Stanier pacifics, but it wasn't. It's only
reached its full potential in preservation.
Was that something as simple as redesigning the brick arch?
--
Clive.
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Clive.
Post by John Wright
They didn't know what they were doing in a real sense - that was around
the time they constructed the Duke of Gloucester, which was expected to be
as good as the A4s and Stanier pacifics, but it wasn't. It's only reached
its full potential in preservation.
Was that something as simple as redesigning the brick arch?
Not redesigning, but building according to the original spec and included
the ashpan and the chimney petticoat.
PeterG
18 years ago
Permalink
...
Don't know about the A4's but the SR Merchant Navy's had a sign in the
cab to the effect if you smell garlic the one of the big ends was
about to go.

PG
Brimstone
18 years ago
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...
I think the A4s had something similar.
Ian Edwards
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Brimstone
I think the A4s had something similar.
I wonder if they'll incorporate it into the new Peppercorn A1 being
built at Darlington?

http://www.a1steam.com/design.html
--
Ian Edwards
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Ian Edwards
Post by Brimstone
I think the A4s had something similar.
I wonder if they'll incorporate it into the new Peppercorn A1 being
built at Darlington?
http://www.a1steam.com/design.html
Or will they do the sensible thing, as Gresley, Thompson et al would have
done, and used a modified big end?
Mark Goodge
18 years ago
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:07:45 +0100, TripleS put finger to keyboard and
Post by TripleS
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Oh, the line was certainly cleared for Mallard's run. The record
attempt was officially sanctioned, hence the specific choice of
Mallard for it's free steaming properties and the inclusion of a
dynamometer car in the train.
I heard that Mallard's speed record was achieved at the cost of some
mechanical damage, though I never knew what it amounted to. What
happened, did it knock out some coupling rod or connecting rod bearings,
or something like that?
It was an overheated inside big end bearing, according to Wikipedia.
No, I don't know what that is either, but apparently it wasn't a
catastrophic failure - it just needed a return to the workshop for
repairs.

Mark
--
Blog: http://Mark.Goodge.co.uk Photos: http://www.goodge.co.uk
"Everybody's changing and I don't feel the same"
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
...
"Big end" and "little end" refer to the connecting rod, exactly the same as
those in a car engine, except that those on a steam loco are a tad bigger.
The little end is attached to the piston rod and the big end is on a bearing
on the axle or the wheel.
TripleS
18 years ago
Permalink
...
...or a crankshaft type of thing of course. Fixing the big end to a
normal axle would leave the thing with zero stroke - which wouldn't
achieve much. ;-)

Best wishes all,
Dave.
Brimstone
18 years ago
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On a steam loco the crank is the axle. :-)
TripleS
18 years ago
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Yes I know, but it can't be a normal axle. It serves the purpose of an
axle but it is actually a crankshaft as well.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by TripleS
I heard that Mallard's speed record was achieved at the cost of some
mechanical damage, though I never knew what it amounted to. What
happened, did it knock out some coupling rod or connecting rod bearings,
or something like that?
It ran the centre big end - the design flaw was eventually fixed due to
this - marginal
lubrication, it is the only example of speed related bearing damage I know
of, in BR times the A4s regularly went over 100 and none of the others ever
had this - including SNG doing 113
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by TripleS
I heard that Mallard's speed record was achieved at the cost of some
mechanical damage, though I never knew what it amounted to. What
happened, did it knock out some coupling rod or connecting rod bearings,
or something like that?
More to the point is the following.

The best performances I know of speed related are not that high - only going
to 90mph, but it is what did it - 9F heavy freight locos, a few of them on
passenger duty have done 90 easily but at the cost of piston ring wear, the
speed of the components (piston speed, driving wheel RPM) were similar to
that of an A4 doing around 125.

However none failed doing this and is was acheived on both the Western
region out of Paddington and on the ECML following a loco shortage (a
performance logger thought it was a Britannia).
PeterG
18 years ago
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...
IIRC orders were sent out to restrict the 9F's speed as those in
charge had a vision of a connecting rod coming off at the speed thats
their small wheels were revolving.

PG
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by PeterG
IIRC orders were sent out to restrict the 9F's speed as those in
charge had a vision of a connecting rod coming off at the speed thats
their small wheels were revolving.
What I read was piston ring wear - I'll have to check my books
Jeff York
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by TripleS
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Oh, the line was certainly cleared for Mallard's run. The record
attempt was officially sanctioned, hence the specific choice of
Mallard for it's free steaming properties and the inclusion of a
dynamometer car in the train.
I heard that Mallard's speed record was achieved at the cost of some
mechanical damage, though I never knew what it amounted to. What
happened, did it knock out some coupling rod or connecting rod bearings,
or something like that?
I think that it broke a crankshaft - had to be towed back IIRC...

On the related point of the "steam car" world speed record, IIRC it
was set by a modified Stanley Steamer and was the last time that the
absolute world speed record was held by a land vehicle.
TripleS
18 years ago
Permalink
...
Now that sounds nasty with such heavy bits and pieces flying around, but
it doesn't tally with what we've heard from others about a bearing
failure or an overheated bearing.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
John Wright
18 years ago
Permalink
...
In addition, in the words of the NRM, Mallard was just new enough to be
run in but not old enough to be worn out! It was also one of the few
A4's with a Kylchap exhaust - this would improve the efficiency more
than somewhat.

The Chap in Kylchap was Andre Chapelon. One of his finest efforts (the
242 A1) got the overall efficiency over 12% - staggering for a steam
engine.
--
John Wright
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
The Chap in Kylchap was Andre Chapelon. One of his finest efforts (the 242
A1) got the overall efficiency over 12% - staggering for a steam engine.
One of the greats of steam loco development - along with Churchward
John Wright
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Martin
The Chap in Kylchap was Andre Chapelon. One of his finest efforts (the 242
A1) got the overall efficiency over 12% - staggering for a steam engine.
One of the greats of steam loco development - along with Churchward
Absolutely. Its a pity the SNCF didn't back Chapelon's ideas, they were
too intent on electrification.
--
John Wright
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by John Wright
Absolutely. Its a pity the SNCF didn't back Chapelon's ideas, they were
too intent on electrification
Electrification was more sensible than Dieselisation - that said some of my
favourite locos are Diesel
John Wright
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by John Wright
Absolutely. Its a pity the SNCF didn't back Chapelon's ideas, they were
too intent on electrification
Electrification was more sensible than Dieselisation - that said some of my
favourite locos are Diesel
It is/was. Perhaps more so then than now - it has been said that the
latest Cummins engines have lower overall emissions than an electric
train of similar power - this is one reason electrification has stalled
in recent years in the UK.

You don't really want diesels that smoke a lot like some people do!
--
John Wright
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by John Wright
It is/was. Perhaps more so then than now - it has been said that the
latest Cummins engines have lower overall emissions than an electric train
of similar power - this is one reason electrification has stalled in
recent years in the UK.
You don't really want diesels that smoke a lot like some people do!
The Mirlees in the 60 is very efficient.

Deltic smoke looks good though!!!!
NM
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by John Wright
It is/was. Perhaps more so then than now - it has been said that the
latest Cummins engines have lower overall emissions than an electric train
of similar power - this is one reason electrification has stalled in
recent years in the UK.
You don't really want diesels that smoke a lot like some people do!
The Mirlees in the 60 is very efficient.
Deltic smoke looks good though!!!!
That takes me back, Ton class minesweepers.
Martin
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by NM
Post by Martin
Deltic smoke looks good though!!!!
That takes me back, Ton class minesweepers.
I'm thinking of a pair of D18-25s in a railway loco.
John Wright
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Martin
Post by John Wright
It is/was. Perhaps more so then than now - it has been said that the
latest Cummins engines have lower overall emissions than an electric train
of similar power - this is one reason electrification has stalled in
recent years in the UK.
You don't really want diesels that smoke a lot like some people do!
The Mirlees in the 60 is very efficient.
Deltic smoke looks good though!!!!
Deltic sound was/is even better. Who needs smoke if you can hear one.
--
John Wright
Ian
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
It would be easy to beat Mallard's record if you wanted to. The
difference between that and the Steam LSR is that Mallard was an
ordinary production model designed and built for everyday use, not a
one-off constucted specifically for the purpose of breaking records.
Though we should remember that Mallard was seriously damaged in the
attempt and that as records go it was petty dodgy - one way only, and
downhill.

Ian
Brimstone
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by Ian
Post by Mark Goodge
It would be easy to beat Mallard's record if you wanted to. The
difference between that and the Steam LSR is that Mallard was an
ordinary production model designed and built for everyday use, not a
one-off constucted specifically for the purpose of breaking records.
Though we should remember that Mallard was seriously damaged in the
attempt
Nothing that didn't happen to other members of the class in normal everyday
service on occasions. As I've said elsewhere, it was a known problem and
measuers were installed to minimise damage.
Post by Ian
and that as records go it was petty dodgy - one way only, and
downhill.
That's because it wasn't *officially* a speed record attempt. The train was
ostensibly carrying out braking tests.
TripleS
18 years ago
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...
Was that with or without ABS?

Best wishes all,
Dave.
Brimstone
18 years ago
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...
LOL
Dave Plowman (News)
18 years ago
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Brimstone
A British team is having a go at the land speed record for a steam
driven car.
Apparently the existing record of 127.659 mph was set by an American in
1906.
http://www.britishsteamcarappeal.co.uk/
They're looking for sponsorship, a pound (£1) a go.
They're going the wrong way about it. A hydrogen peroxide fuelled rocket
is steam powered.
Rocket is a clue here. Hence the difference between wheel driven vehicles
for the various records and effectively aircraft which don't take off.
--
*The beatings will continue until morale improves *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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