[mb-users] transcriptions of works for other instruments

[lorenz pressler]

befor i make further mergings of works and getting voted down i will ask
here:
in classical releases its quite common to transcribe a composition so it
can be performed by other instruments than it was intetend.

example edit here: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14613754

i merged
Sonata d-moll f?r Cembalo nach Sonata Nr. 1 g-moll, BWV 1001 f?r Violine
solo: I. Adagio
into the normal
Sonata No. 1 in G minor for Violin Solo, BWV 1001: I. Adagio

i could not find a appropriate work-work or recording-work relationship to
indicate transcriptions. closest possible thing is the 'arranged'
relationship which can be assigned to recordings. so is this merge ok?

best,

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/6/11 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Post by lorenz pressler
befor i make further mergings of works and getting voted down i will ask
in classical releases its quite common to transcribe a composition so it
can be performed by other instruments than it was intetend.
example edit here: http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14613754
i merged
Sonata d-moll f?r Cembalo nach Sonata Nr. 1 g-moll, BWV 1001 f?r Violine
solo: I. Adagio
into the normal
Sonata No. 1 in G minor for Violin Solo, BWV 1001: I. Adagio
i could not find a appropriate work-work or recording-work relationship to
indicate transcriptions. closest possible thing is the 'arranged'
relationship which can be assigned to recordings. so is this merge ok?

I can't tell about this specific merge, but I think we should at least set
limits on this kind of merge. I think of transcriptions solo
instrument-orchestra like Pictures at an Exhibition. I think I'd rather
request for a Work-Work transcription AR.

[symphonick]

Post by lorenz pressler
i could not find a appropriate work-work or recording-work relationship to
indicate transcriptions. closest possible thing is the 'arranged'
relationship which can be assigned to recordings.

That's the problem in these cases. If we want to tell who did the
transcription, we have to to that @ recording level (& repeat it every
time if it's a often used transcription).

OTOH, we can't create a new work every time a tenor sings a soprano aria,
so we have to come up with some guidelines for this.

/symphonick

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/6/11 symphonick <symphonick at gmail.com>

Post by symphonick

Post by lorenz pressler
i could not find a appropriate work-work or recording-work relationship to
indicate transcriptions. closest possible thing is the 'arranged'
relationship which can be assigned to recordings.

That's the problem in these cases. If we want to tell who did the
time if it's a often used transcription).
OTOH, we can't create a new work every time a tenor sings a soprano aria,
so we have to come up with some guidelines for this.

It is a bit early since the AR does not yet exist, but I'd say that if there
is a transcription written by the composer, then we should accept the new
Work. Well-known transcriptions should be accepted too (Busoni's piano
transcriptions of Bach's chorals), but I guess that more generally, any
recorded transcription for which there exists a printed score could be
accepted too. Also, I believe we should accept transcriptions where the
instrument change implies a complete change in musical perspective, like the
solo instrument - orchestra transcriptions I mentioned earlier.

[lorenz pressler]

2011/6/11 symphonick <symphonick at gmail.com>

Post by symphonick
That's the problem in these cases. If we want to tell who did the
time if it's a often used transcription).

right now there are ~250 recordings which have transcribed or
transcription in their title. thats quite manageable either way we decide
to handle this i think.

Post by symphonick
OTOH, we can't create a new work every time a tenor sings a soprano aria,
so we have to come up with some guidelines for this.

i'm no singer so maybe i'm wrong, but if a opera singer just sings a score
an octave higher or deeper i would not call this a transcription. theres
no need for modulation work if you don't change the key or have to
consider restrictions the target instrument has (this might be utter
nonsense, just my feeling)

Am 11.06.2011, 12:55 Uhr, schrieb Frederic Da Vitoria

Post by symphonick
It is a bit early since the AR does not yet exist, but I'd say that if there
is a transcription written by the composer, then we should accept the new
Work. Well-known transcriptions should be accepted too (Busoni's piano
transcriptions of Bach's chorals), but I guess that more generally, any
recorded transcription for which there exists a printed score could be
accepted too. Also, I believe we should accept transcriptions where the
instrument change implies a complete change in musical perspective, like the
solo instrument - orchestra transcriptions I mentioned earlier.

if we intruduce these new ARs we should use them whenever transcriptions
pop up. it's not that the database will be flooded with new works. i just
have one release of some baroque guitar transcriptions in my collection
and only came across a few while editing. That would free us of thinking
of rules that can't be proven that easily (i guess it might be hard to
come up with proof that there exist a printed score).

so what would we need?

work-work: is a transcription of
work-work: is an orchestration of
work-artist: wrote the transcription from %instrument% to %instrument% (or
just: wrote the transcripton [for %instrument%])
work-artist: arranged orchestration

still i see some potential conflict whith the 'arranged' AR on recording
lvl.

hugs + kisses!

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/6/12 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/6/11 symphonick <symphonick at gmail.com>

Post by symphonick
That's the problem in these cases. If we want to tell who did the
time if it's a often used transcription).

right now there are ~250 recordings which have transcribed or
transcription in their title. thats quite manageable either way we decide
to handle this i think.

Post by symphonick
OTOH, we can't create a new work every time a tenor sings a soprano aria,
so we have to come up with some guidelines for this.

i'm no singer so maybe i'm wrong, but if a opera singer just sings a score
an octave higher or deeper i would not call this a transcription. theres
no need for modulation work if you don't change the key or have to
consider restrictions the target instrument has (this might be utter
nonsense, just my feeling)
Am 11.06.2011, 12:55 Uhr, schrieb Frederic Da Vitoria

Post by symphonick
It is a bit early since the AR does not yet exist, but I'd say that if there
is a transcription written by the composer, then we should accept the new
Work. Well-known transcriptions should be accepted too (Busoni's piano
transcriptions of Bach's chorals), but I guess that more generally, any
recorded transcription for which there exists a printed score could be
accepted too. Also, I believe we should accept transcriptions where the
instrument change implies a complete change in musical perspective, like the
solo instrument - orchestra transcriptions I mentioned earlier.

if we intruduce these new ARs we should use them whenever transcriptions
pop up. it's not that the database will be flooded with new works. i just
have one release of some baroque guitar transcriptions in my collection
and only came across a few while editing. That would free us of thinking
of rules that can't be proven that easily (i guess it might be hard to
come up with proof that there exist a printed score).
so what would we need?
work-work: is a transcription of
work-work: is an orchestration of
work-artist: wrote the transcription from %instrument% to %instrument% (or
just: wrote the transcripton [for %instrument%])
work-artist: arranged orchestration
still i see some potential conflict whith the 'arranged' AR on recording
lvl.

In general, I'd tend to agree with you, but yes, there is the Arrangement AR
and things like symphonkck's tenor example. So that I need we need to set
some limits, either in genre or using some other more or less easily
checkable criterion. Using the genre criterion would lead to a rule like
"classical uses Work-Work transcription AR while non-classical prefers
Work-Recording Arrangement AR" (BTW, what do jazz-lovers think about this
issue, is a transcription a distinct work?), which would lead to discussions
for the Works where it couldn't be easily decided whether they belong to
classical music or not. using the "checkable" criterion would maybe more
difficult to agree on, especially across musical genres.

Just a question: when Ravel transcribed Mussorgsky's Pictures at an
Exhibition, we say it is an orchestration. But when Stravinsky writes a
Piano solo version of Petrushka or of the Rite of Spring, how is it called?
Is an orchestration only a kind of transcription and if so, should there
only be one AR which maybe one day could be smart enough to display itself
differently if the final instrument is orchestra?

[lorenz pressler]

i think we should be less theoretical and more practical with the whole
work concept. i see so many voices here demanding work status for every
alteration of another work because it is so unique and it deserves its own
work. this is not the way we should go imho. of course they are unique and
valuable pieces of art but if there is only one recording of a work and
there is another work it could be linked to with an recording-work AR i
see no reason to create a new work-entity here in MB.
In Jazz transkriptions are called arrangemnts, and since they are often
improvised and every performance could be seen as a new 'work' it is good
that this is located at recording lvl. for other popular music i have
never seen anthing like a transcription. I just agree with the the new
work-work AR because transkription were quite popular in baroque musique
and there are some well known pieces and 'transcribers'. Also some
composers have transcriptions/variations/orchestrations in their worklist
so it is absolutely viable to enter new work-entitys for as such. there
are also some newer transkription by performers which were then performed
also by other musicians.
So i can agree with a restriction to classical i guess.

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Is an orchestration only a kind of transcription and if so, should there
only be one AR which maybe one day could be smart enough to display
itself differently if the final instrument is orchestra?

i've just seen, that we have an orchstration AR already at work lvl!
orchestration: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to a Concerto or just adding
an orchestra to a work.
transkription: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to Cello Sonata

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/6/12 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Post by lorenz pressler
orchestration: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to a Concerto or just adding
an orchestra to a work.
transkription: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to Cello Sonata

I know, but the first point of my question was: how is transforming an
orchestral into a solo instrument work called?

[David Hilton]

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Frederic Da Vitoria

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/6/12 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Post by lorenz pressler
orchestration: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to a Concerto or just adding
an orchestra to a work.
transkription: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to Cello Sonata

I know, but the first point of my question was: how is transforming an
orchestral into a solo instrument work called?

I'd probably call it a reduction.

[Brant Gibbard]

I've certainly heard things like Liszt's version of the Beethoven 9th
symphony for two pianos (!!!) called a "piano reduction"


Brant Gibbard
Toronto, ON
http://bgibbard.ca <http://bgibbard.ca/>




_____

From: musicbrainz-users-bounces at lists.musicbrainz.org
[mailto:musicbrainz-users-bounces at lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of
Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: June-12-11 1:00 PM
To: MusicBrainz User Discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-users] transcriptions of works for other instruments


2011/6/12 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>


orchestration: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to a Concerto or just adding
an orchestra to a work.
transkription: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to Cello Sonata



I know, but the first point of my question was: how is transforming an
orchestral into a solo instrument work called?
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-users/attachments/20110612/94129c17/attachment.htm

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

Davit and Brant, thanks for your answers. My next question is: do we create
then 3 ARs (transciption, orchestration or reduction) or do we decide to use
only one for all? After all, the source and destination instruments are
enough to understand what was done, nobody would call an orchestration the
transformation of the Rite of Spring to solo piano an orchestration! So
could we get them all in a general transcription AR? Or should we create 3
distinct ARs?

2011/6/12 Brant Gibbard <bgibbard at ca.inter.net>

Post by Brant Gibbard
I've certainly heard things like Liszt's version of the Beethoven 9th
symphony for two pianos (!!!) called a "piano reduction"
Brant Gibbard
Toronto, ON
http://bgibbard.ca
------------------------------
musicbrainz-users-bounces at lists.musicbrainz.org] *On Behalf Of *Frederic
Da Vitoria
*Sent:* June-12-11 1:00 PM
*To:* MusicBrainz User Discussion
*Subject:* Re: [mb-users] transcriptions of works for other instruments
2011/6/12 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Post by lorenz pressler
orchestration: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to a Concerto or just adding
an orchestra to a work.
transkription: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to Cello Sonata

I know, but the first point of my question was: how is transforming an
orchestral into a solo instrument work called?
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)
Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

[Yin Izanami]

What I think seems reasonable is to make orchestration, transcription, and
reduction attributes of the "arrangement" AR, that way instruments could be
attached to them as well. Of course that isn't even close to how
Musicbrainz is set up right now, so would probably require a RFV/C.

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Davit and Brant, thanks for your answers. My next question is: do we create
then 3 ARs (transciption, orchestration or reduction) or do we decide to use
only one for all? After all, the source and destination instruments are
enough to understand what was done, nobody would call an orchestration the
transformation of the Rite of Spring to solo piano an orchestration! So
could we get them all in a general transcription AR? Or should we create 3
distinct ARs?
2011/6/12 Brant Gibbard <bgibbard at ca.inter.net>

Post by Brant Gibbard
I've certainly heard things like Liszt's version of the Beethoven 9th
symphony for two pianos (!!!) called a "piano reduction"
Brant Gibbard
Toronto, ON
http://bgibbard.ca
------------------------------
musicbrainz-users-bounces at lists.musicbrainz.org] *On Behalf Of *Frederic
Da Vitoria
*Sent:* June-12-11 1:00 PM
*To:* MusicBrainz User Discussion
*Subject:* Re: [mb-users] transcriptions of works for other instruments
2011/6/12 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Post by lorenz pressler
orchestration: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to a Concerto or just adding
an orchestra to a work.
transkription: e.g. rewriting a Piano Sonata to Cello Sonata

I know, but the first point of my question was: how is transforming an
orchestral into a solo instrument work called?
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)
Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)
Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-users/attachments/20110612/b3cae20e/attachment-0001.htm

[David Hilton]

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Frederic Da Vitoria

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Davit and Brant, thanks for your answers. My next question is: do we create
then 3 ARs (transciption, orchestration or reduction) or do we decide to use
only one for all? After all, the source and destination instruments are
enough to understand what was done, nobody would call an orchestration the
transformation of the Rite of Spring to solo piano an orchestration! So
could we get them all in a general transcription AR? Or should we create 3
distinct ARs?

I'd probably prefer having more options available. Here is my
definition of terms.

transcription: audio->score (also can describe an adaptation with all
adjustments being due to instrumentation changes)
orchestration: keyboard instrument->orchestra
reduction: orchestra->keyboard instrument
adaptation: change in form, more strict in keeping true to the
original than arrangements (opera->musical theater)
arrangement: modification of work maintaining most elements, but
having significant differences introduced by the arranger

It is also common for conductors to do relatively minor adjustments to
scores to either compensate for balance/other issues specific to their
group or to their taste. I'd generally not consider these to be worth
mentioning, and generally these changes aren't even known beyond the
performers. These sorts of sorts of adjustments will by nature of
their lack of visibility be clustered under the original work.

I suppose orchestral works might also use the term quodlibet, though I
generally think of it in a choral context.

David

[symphonick]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 20:08:59 +0200, David Hilton

Post by David Hilton
transcription: audio->score (also can describe an adaptation with all
adjustments being due to instrumentation changes)
orchestration: keyboard instrument->orchestra
reduction: orchestra->keyboard instrument
adaptation: change in form, more strict in keeping true to the
original than arrangements (opera->musical theater)
arrangement: modification of work maintaining most elements, but
having significant differences introduced by the arranger

I'm all for choices too, but only if we can write clear guidelines. :-(

Wikipedia's explanations:
transcription: "can mean notating a piece or a sound which was previously
unnotated" (examples: jazz solo / oral tradition / birdsong)
transcription: "may also mean rewriting a piece of music, either solo or
ensemble, for another instrument or other instruments than which it was
originally intended."
This is an important line: "Transcription in this sense is sometimes
called arrangement, although strictly speaking transcriptions are faithful
adaptations, whereas arrangements change significant aspects of the
original piece." So we will have to deal with this.
"In popular music and rock, there are two forms of transcription.
Individual performers copy a note-for-note guitar solo or other melodic
line. As well, music publishers transcribe entire recordings of guitar
solos and bass lines and sell the sheet music in bound books."

adaption: the same wikipedia page goes on about adaption as an "identical"
transcription. I'm a little hesitant to add this AR.

I'd leave out piano reductions, I think very few works in MB are affected.
But if everybody wants it, sure. BTW that's how I remember it too, always
"piano reduction".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_%28music%29


Orchestration: "is the study or practice of writing music for an orchestra
(or, more loosely, for any musical ensemble) or of adapting for orchestra
music composed for another medium."
That's better.

So to sum it up, work-work ARs:
arrangement
transcription
orchestration

But guidelines in place first!

Post by David Hilton
It is also common for conductors to do relatively minor adjustments to
scores to either compensate for balance/other issues specific to their
group or to their taste. I'd generally not consider these to be worth
mentioning, and generally these changes aren't even known beyond the
performers. These sorts of sorts of adjustments will by nature of
their lack of visibility be clustered under the original work.

+1

Post by David Hilton
I suppose orchestral works might also use the term quodlibet, though I
generally think of it in a choral context.

haven't heard it, I'm afraid.

/symphonick

[Brant Gibbard]

Post by symphonick
I'd leave out piano reductions, I think very few works in MB
are affected.

I do think arrangement would cover this adequately, but I have my doubts
that very few works are affected. Liszt made a career out of this sort of
thing.

Post by symphonick
But if everybody wants it, sure. BTW that's how I remember it
too, always "piano reduction".

That I do agree with, I don't think I've ever heard the specific term
reduction used in any context other than for piano. I've never heard
anything by Larry Adler being described as a "harmonica reduction" for
example, although I could be wrong about that. In the time of Mozart and
Beethoven there was a veritable industry of making arrangements of
orchestral works for small groups of wind instruments (pretty much the only
way that groups of non-wealthy people could actually get together and hear
these works in an age before recordings), but that too I have never heard
called a reduction.

[David Hilton]

Post by Brant Gibbard

Post by symphonick
But if everybody wants it, sure. BTW that's how I remember it
too, always "piano reduction".

That I do agree with, I don't think I've ever heard the specific term
reduction used in any context other than for piano.

I've seen harpsichord and organ reductions too, but those are much less common.

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/6/12 symphonick <symphonick at gmail.com>

Post by symphonick
On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 20:08:59 +0200, David Hilton

Post by David Hilton
transcription: audio->score (also can describe an adaptation with all
adjustments being due to instrumentation changes)
orchestration: keyboard instrument->orchestra
reduction: orchestra->keyboard instrument
adaptation: change in form, more strict in keeping true to the
original than arrangements (opera->musical theater)
arrangement: modification of work maintaining most elements, but
having significant differences introduced by the arranger

I'm all for choices too, but only if we can write clear guidelines. :-(
transcription: "can mean notating a piece or a sound which was previously
unnotated" (examples: jazz solo / oral tradition / birdsong)
transcription: "may also mean rewriting a piece of music, either solo or
ensemble, for another instrument or other instruments than which it was
originally intended."
This is an important line: "Transcription in this sense is sometimes
called arrangement, although strictly speaking transcriptions are faithful
adaptations, whereas arrangements change significant aspects of the
original piece." So we will have to deal with this.
"In popular music and rock, there are two forms of transcription.
Individual performers copy a note-for-note guitar solo or other melodic
line. As well, music publishers transcribe entire recordings of guitar
solos and bass lines and sell the sheet music in bound books."
adaption: the same wikipedia page goes on about adaption as an "identical"
transcription. I'm a little hesitant to add this AR.
I'd leave out piano reductions, I think very few works in MB are affected.
But if everybody wants it, sure. BTW that's how I remember it too, always
"piano reduction".

Thanks for the explanations. So indeed transcription could be considered as
the generic word, and orchestrations and reductions as specific terms. The
consensus seems to be using specific ARs though.

I'd want to be able to enter reductions as I am quite fond of the piano
versions I have, but I don't request for the exact word reduction. If such
transformations are to be entered as Transcriptions ARs, fine!

[lorenz pressler]

hi there.

Post by Yin Izanami
arrangement
transcription
orchestration

i have seen arrangement, transcription & adaption used for the same
things..
- adaption is a major change for me; often changing the very form of the
work and only keeping the main themes alive (adaptions for film, musical,
childs-play,...)
- arrangement are just minor changes (for me; what i have come across so
far) also transcriptions are very often credited as arrangements. i
hesitate to introduce this on work lvl since we have this on recording lvl
already and i'm afraid this will be misused for transcriptions.

i have not come across orchestrations so far.. so i don't know if we
really need this.


for now i made this quick draft of the transcription guideline, pls some
input before i move this to RFC on the style-list.

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:Transcription_Relationship_Type
(can i get rid of the 'date' attributes?)

thx.

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

Post by lorenz pressler
i have not come across orchestrations so far.. so i don't know if we
really need this.

Ravel's orchestration of Moussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition! Or
would you call this an adaptation?

Post by lorenz pressler
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:Transcription_Relationship_Type
(can i get rid of the 'date' attributes?)

I guess so, I don't see why the transcription date would be different
from the Work date.

[lorenz pressler]

Am 05.07.2011, 15:10 Uhr, schrieb Frederic Da Vitoria

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Ravel's orchestration of Moussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition! Or
would you call this an adaptation?

i guess both would be fine :)
however is this applicable to MB-database?

Post by Frederic Da Vitoria

Post by lorenz pressler
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:Transcription_Relationship_Type
(can i get rid of the 'date' attributes?)

I guess so, I don't see why the transcription date would be different
from the Work date.

yes, i would attribute the date of origin to the work-artist relationship.
but the question was more of a technical nature, date is alwas there, i
can't get rid of it :)

[symphonick]

Post by lorenz pressler
i have seen arrangement, transcription & adaption used for the same
things..

Have anyone checked New Grove or something for definitions? I'll do if I
can remember it.

Post by lorenz pressler
- adaption is a major change for me; often changing the very form of the
work and only keeping the main themes alive (adaptions for film, musical,
childs-play,...)

I rarely encounter the term, to be honest. But "adaption for musical" etc
sound familiar.

Post by lorenz pressler
- arrangement are just minor changes

Arrangment could mean slightly changing a couple of parts in the score for
other instruments; perhaps removing a contra-bassoon part and moving some
parts of it to a trombone & some to a tuba. or whatever.
It can also mean only keeping the melody, and making a totally different
version of the accompaniment, changing harmonies & everything. I see
arranging as a major change, usually. Transcriptions OTOH doesn't change
the music.

Post by lorenz pressler
i have not come across orchestrations so far.. so i don't know if we
really need this.

Specifially for making a version for orchestra of a work composed for a
smaller ensemble or solo instrument. Like Mahler's version for string
orchestra of Schubert's a-minor string quartet "Death & the maiden".
Again, not changing the music.

/symphonick

[Rupert Swarbrick]

Post by symphonick
Arrangment could mean slightly changing a couple of parts in the score for
other instruments; perhaps removing a contra-bassoon part and moving some
parts of it to a trombone & some to a tuba. or whatever.
It can also mean only keeping the melody, and making a totally different
version of the accompaniment, changing harmonies & everything. I see
arranging as a major change, usually. Transcriptions OTOH doesn't change
the music.

Although, sometimes things are credited as "transcriptions" and
obviously include a pretty substantial reworking. For example, I have a
CD of piano duos in front of me including a suite from Ravel's Daphnis
and Chlo? and two of Debussy's Nocturnes. All of them say "transcribed",
some by the original composers and some by contemporaries.

It seems to me that the "two piano" version of Debussy's Nocturnes is
dramatically different enough that it would be nice for it to have a
separate work.

Rupert
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 315 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-users/attachments/20110705/15770df7/attachment.pgp

[Ryan Torchia]

Symphonick is correct. The terms differ mainly in how significant the
change is and the size of the target ensemble. Transcription generally
involves the least change and is usually for a single instrument (or a
1-to-1 relationship, if from quartet to quartet for example). Arrangement
typically tries to preserve the basic musical content (melody and harmony);
orchestration is just a specific type of arrangement. Adaptation implies a
more significant change: for example, *Mama Mia* has ABBA songs adapted for
the stage. (FWIW, "adap*ta*tion" is usually more accepted than "adaption".)

--Torc.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-users/attachments/20110705/4daebc80/attachment-0001.htm

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

Was any decision taken on this? I don't know if I should create a new
work for http://musicbrainz.org/recording/8edc3b74-5bc6-439a-b5d5-2f02f2b9b748
or not?

Symphonick is correct.? The terms differ mainly in how significant the
change is and the size of the target ensemble.? Transcription generally
involves the least change and is usually for a single instrument (or a
1-to-1 relationship, if from quartet to quartet for example).? Arrangement
typically tries to preserve the basic musical content (melody and harmony);
orchestration is just a specific type of arrangement.? Adaptation implies a
more significant change: for example, Mama Mia has ABBA songs adapted for
the stage.? (FWIW, "adaptation" is usually more accepted than "adaption".)
--Torc.
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

[symphonick]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:17:37 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren

Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Was any decision taken on this? I don't know if I should create a new
work for
http://musicbrainz.org/recording/8edc3b74-5bc6-439a-b5d5-2f02f2b9b748
or not?

First, I recommend dropping instrumentation & transcription info from the
tracklist. (If necessary I'd use a condensed version in the recording
comment).
Also it's viola, not violin, see
http://www.ecmrecords.com/Catalogue/New_Series/1900/1975.php?cat=&we_start=0&lvredir=712&we_search=%2Blevin

Nothing decided yet. It depends on whether we believe it's motivated to
have this relationship at work level in this instance. For the moment I'm
gonna say it's not, I assume these arrangements are used only by these
artists. Right now I'm leaning towards only creating a new work if it sees
more wide-spread use. At least wait until we get these things sorted out.

/symphonick

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

Post by symphonick
On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:17:37 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren

Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Was any decision taken on this? I don't know if I should create a new
work for
http://musicbrainz.org/recording/8edc3b74-5bc6-439a-b5d5-2f02f2b9b748
or not?

First, I recommend dropping instrumentation & transcription info from the
tracklist. (If necessary I'd use a condensed version in the recording
comment).
Also it's viola, not violin, see
http://www.ecmrecords.com/Catalogue/New_Series/1900/1975.php?cat=&we_start=0&lvredir=712&we_search=%2Blevin

Oh, I haven't touched the tracklists much except when they're clearly
wrong; linking the recordings to works and creating the works that we
lack is enough work already. We're going to have to look at all the
tracklists anyway once we do have a new CSG.

Post by symphonick
Nothing decided yet. It depends on whether we believe it's motivated to
have this relationship at work level in this instance. For the moment I'm
gonna say it's not, I assume these arrangements are used only by these
artists. Right now I'm leaning towards only creating a new work if it sees
more wide-spread use. At least wait until we get these things sorted out.

Nice, will do that. What about stuff like "Introduction and Fantasia
on Themes From Verdi's 'La Traviata' for guitar"? Should I credit that
to both Verdi and the derivative work composer (T?rrega, in this
case)? Also, how should I link it to the original work, if in any way?

Post by symphonick
/symphonick
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

[symphonick]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:17:50 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren

Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

Post by symphonick
Nothing decided yet. It depends on whether we believe it's motivated to
have this relationship at work level in this instance. For the moment I'm
gonna say it's not, I assume these arrangements are used only by these
artists. Right now I'm leaning towards only creating a new work if it sees
more wide-spread use. At least wait until we get these things sorted out.

Nice, will do that. What about stuff like "Introduction and Fantasia
on Themes From Verdi's 'La Traviata' for guitar"? Should I credit that
to both Verdi and the derivative work composer (T?rrega, in this
case)? Also, how should I link it to the original work, if in any way?

Guess what, we don't have an AR for that. You can put a link in the
annotation if you want. For a work based on another composer's work, the
usual suggestion is only the composer of the derivative work (T?rrega) as
composer. The only exception I can come up with ATM is the song "Ave
Maria", usually credited "Bach / Gounod".

/symphonick

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

Post by symphonick
On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:17:50 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren

Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

Post by symphonick
Nothing decided yet. It depends on whether we believe it's motivated to
have this relationship at work level in this instance. For the moment I'm
gonna say it's not, I assume these arrangements are used only by these
artists. Right now I'm leaning towards only creating a new work if it sees
more wide-spread use. At least wait until we get these things sorted out.

Nice, will do that. What about stuff like "Introduction and Fantasia
on Themes From Verdi's 'La Traviata' for guitar"? Should I credit that
to both Verdi and the derivative work composer (T?rrega, in this
case)? Also, how should I link it to the original work, if in any way?

Guess what, we don't have an AR for that. You can put a link in the
annotation if you want. For a work based on another composer's work, the
usual suggestion is only the composer of the derivative work (T?rrega) as
composer. The only exception I can come up with ATM is the song "Ave
Maria", usually credited "Bach / Gounod".

Ok. Should a new AR for this be requested as a part of the CSG overhaul? :)

Post by symphonick
/symphonick
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

[symphonick]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:37:16 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren

Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

Post by symphonick
Guess what, we don't have an AR for that. You can put a link in the
annotation if you want. For a work based on another composer's work, the
usual suggestion is only the composer of the derivative work (T?rrega) as
composer. The only exception I can come up with ATM is the song "Ave
Maria", usually credited "Bach / Gounod".

Ok. Should a new AR for this be requested as a part of the CSG overhaul? :)

I suppose so...
/symphonick

[Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren]

Post by symphonick
On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:37:16 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren

Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren

Post by symphonick
Guess what, we don't have an AR for that. You can put a link in the
annotation if you want. For a work based on another composer's work, the
usual suggestion is only the composer of the derivative work (T?rrega) as
composer. The only exception I can come up with ATM is the song "Ave
Maria", usually credited "Bach / Gounod".

Ok. Should a new AR for this be requested as a part of the CSG overhaul? :)

I suppose so...

I clearly don't know enough of the matter to write a proposal, but I
doubt there would be any opposition to it. Unless we use a "derivative
work" relationship for this (which could also be used for other,
non-classical stuff like remixes that are works of their own).

Post by symphonick
/symphonick
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-users mailing list
MusicBrainz-users at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

[monxton]

Post by lorenz pressler
befor i make further mergings of works and getting voted down i will ask

Please don't take it personally (*) if people vote again your edit -
it's great that you are bringing these debates forward and the healthy
discussions remain and help to create precendent. If you want, just
cancel the edit before it gets to the "voted down" stage, it won't stop
editors from discussing the issues.

(*) not unless people also abuse you!

[lorenz pressler]

Post by monxton
Please don't take it personally (*) if people vote again your edit -
it's great that you are bringing these debates forward and the healthy
discussions remain and help to create precendent. If you want, just
cancel the edit before it gets to the "voted down" stage, it won't stop
editors from discussing the issues.

i don't care about my record, but i'd hate to tell my index finger that
all his strenuous work was good for nothing^^ i value discussion a lot and
i'd rather like to see my edits voted down accompanied by a hefty argument
than just seeing them pass through with accept on expiration.

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2011/6/11 lorenz pressler <lop at gmx.at>

Am 11.06.2011, 14:17 Uhr, schrieb monxton <musicbrainz at jordan-maynard.org

Post by monxton
Please don't take it personally (*) if people vote again your edit -
it's great that you are bringing these debates forward and the healthy
discussions remain and help to create precendent. If you want, just
cancel the edit before it gets to the "voted down" stage, it won't stop
editors from discussing the issues.

i don't care about my record, but i'd hate to tell my index finger that
all his strenuous work was good for nothing^^ i value discussion a lot and
i'd rather like to see my edits voted down accompanied by a hefty argument
than just seeing them pass through with accept on expiration.

Voting no until we decide where the limits are.