Josiah de la Motte
2020-08-09 03:15:43 UTC
I am addressing this to Douglas Richardson (I hope he’ll see it), but of course anyone’s feedback is very welcome, if you have a moment. I’m just starting out, so I have a great deal of work to do in order to improve my skills.
Hello Mr. Richardson,
I am an 18 year-old genealogy enthusiast, and I am interested in proving a new gateway line to both Edward III and Saher de Quincy, using the line in your 2011 book ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’ (beginning on page 265) to John Bevan of PA.
The line would begin as follows:
1. Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
2. Edmund of Langley = Isabel of Castile
3. Constance Plantagenet (later) = Thomas le Despenser
4. Eleanor Holand (Illegitimate daughter of Constance Plantagenet and Edmund Holand)=James Touchet
Now following your book ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’:
5. Constance Touchet (or Audrey) = Robert Whitney
6. Joan Whitney = Sir Roger Vaughan
7. Elinor Vaughan = Thomas Gwyn
Everything above is stated in ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’. In the references section on pages 266-267, you mention the book, ‘The History of the County of Brecknock’, written by Welsh Historian Theophilus Jones in the early 1800s. Do you think I can safely follow Jones forward two more generations? In the section of the appendixes giving descendants Brychan Brecheiniog on pedigrees 16 and 18, it gives David Lloyd as the son of Thomas Gwyn and Elinor, daughter of Roger Vaughan.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924096162064&view=1up&seq=687&q1=Elinor
They would be the following:
8. David Lloyd (son of Thomas Gwyn) = Maud (daughter of Watkin Gwilym Prosser of Llangynir)
9. Watkin David Lloyd = Joan Philip Tho-Thir Prosser of the Pool
For what it’s worth (the line from Elizabeth Somerset it sets out isn’t valid), this 1999 book of Magna Charta descents shows does state that this is the case.
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/49232/images/FLHG_MagnaChartaSureties-0066?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=62216
From there, it’s picked up in ‘Le Neve’s Knights‘, on page 470.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005695583&view=1up&seq=578
10. Agnes Lloyd = Edward Jeffreys
11. Watkin Jeffreys = Gwenellian (daughter of Evan ap Owen of Cwmwd)
12. Jeffrey Jeffreys= Sarah Dawes
To prove the relationship between Jeffrey Jeffreys and his eldest son Edward, I have the following references and a summary. Note that Jones’ ‘Brecknock’ does present a problem, as it says Edward died in 1698. This is impossible, however, as Jeffrey Jeffreys names his son Edward sole executor in his will proved in 1709.
References:
(1) Jeffrey Jeffreys’ biography on the ‘History of Parliament’ website
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/jeffreys-jeffrey-1652-1709#footnote2_9cln83q
(2) ‘Virginia Magazine of History and Biography’, Volume 30, number 4’, pages 325, 326, and 328
https://archive.org/details/jstor-4243891/page/n3/mode/2up
(3) Will of John (given in Latin as Johannis) Jeffreys, probated in 1688, page 10 of 12. https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_310597-00536?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=d311633e0c2bd841fd0838c408f85729&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mtO10&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=771376
(4) Will of Jeffrey Jeffreys, probated 26 November 1709 https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_310730-00049?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=2d202af98fc24b42eaf560b6a050e273&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mtO8&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=841798
(5) Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia, 1712-1726’, page 312
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006970258&view=1up&seq=370
(6) https://www.google.com/maps/place/Brentsville,+VA/@38.2641451,-77.3434374,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b65e1751f6f2f7:0x25e571d8d04046ee!8m2!3d38.7195625!4d-77.5848665?hl=en-us
(7) 1730s map of Stafford County https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3883s.ct006742/?r=0.029,0.315,0.992,1.028,0
(8) Letter from John Carter to Son John, February 10th, 1721, transcription on christchurch1735.org:
https://christchurch1735.org/robert-king-carter-papers/html/C21b10a.mod.html#n2
(9) 1754 lawsuit involving Edward Jefferies https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61473/images/47913_b354722-10304_00001?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=2b8f3859ae52f3cc48d8a4ea0c3ee8bf&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mtO1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=82808
(10) Le Neve’s Pedigrees of Knights, beginning on page 470 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005695583&view=1up&seq=578
In his will, Alderman John Jeffreys gave his stock in his company, which was involved in the Tobacco and Slave Trades, to his Nephews Jeffrey Jeffreys and John Jeffreys (1, 3). This explains the fact that, in 1690, Jeffrey and John jointly owned part of a plantation between the Upper Machodoc and Chotank Creeks. John (the Uncle), also owned land in Stafford County, deeded to him by a debtor, Cadawaller Jones, in 1687 (2). In 1720, Edward Jefferies, Esquire, was notified by the House of Burgesses that he had to survey a plantation in modern Brentsville, then in Stafford County, within three years or else the property would be forfeited. This plot matches the description of one supposedly deeded by Jones to John Jeffreys (the Uncle)(2,5,6,7). This is supported by a letter written the next year, in 1721, by Governor Robert Carter to his son, stating:
‘Esquire Jeoffrys holds 14,000 and [odd] Acres of Land in the backwoods of Stafford County It was never yett [sic] Seated or paid
any quit rents nor are the bounds Certainly known. I would
have You know his mind about this Land and where I'm to apply
for my quit Rents, As I suppose the patents for them is in
the name of Cadwalliter Jones, who conveyed them over to the
Alderman or Sr. Jeoffrys this is a matter worth looking after’(8).
In his will in 1709, Jeffrey Jeffreys made Edward Jeffreys, his son, sole executor over his estate, but did not leave him a bequest of money (4). I would suggest that this may be because Edward, Jeffrey’s eldest son according to ‘Le Neve’s Knights’, inherited his father’s Virginia land holdings instead (10). In 1754, an Edward Jefferies, apparently a tobacconist, had an illegal shipment of foreign tobacco stalks seized, along with the ship ‘Prosperous’(9). I cannot prove that this is Edward Jeffreys, Jeffrey Jeffrey’s son. I am still seeking more documentation to complete the timeline for this Edward. I have a secondary source by the supposed great-grandson of an ancestor that could be the correct Edward, but I am not entirely convinced that the above line applies to me.
The line to Saher de Quincy branches off at Edmund Holand in the above royal line. It then follows the Kent line laid out in your book ‘Magna Carta Ancestry’, beginning on page 474.
I would very much appreciate your feedback on whether you think this is a viable gateway line. Of course it needs a lot of work, but I’d love to see it approved at some point, whether I can definitively connect to it or not. I thought that if you expressed your thoughts about it in writing, it is all the more likely to be accepted by lineage societies in the future.
Thanks so much,
Josiah de la Motte
Hello Mr. Richardson,
I am an 18 year-old genealogy enthusiast, and I am interested in proving a new gateway line to both Edward III and Saher de Quincy, using the line in your 2011 book ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’ (beginning on page 265) to John Bevan of PA.
The line would begin as follows:
1. Edward III = Phillipa of Hainault
2. Edmund of Langley = Isabel of Castile
3. Constance Plantagenet (later) = Thomas le Despenser
4. Eleanor Holand (Illegitimate daughter of Constance Plantagenet and Edmund Holand)=James Touchet
Now following your book ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’:
5. Constance Touchet (or Audrey) = Robert Whitney
6. Joan Whitney = Sir Roger Vaughan
7. Elinor Vaughan = Thomas Gwyn
Everything above is stated in ‘Plantagenet Ancestry’. In the references section on pages 266-267, you mention the book, ‘The History of the County of Brecknock’, written by Welsh Historian Theophilus Jones in the early 1800s. Do you think I can safely follow Jones forward two more generations? In the section of the appendixes giving descendants Brychan Brecheiniog on pedigrees 16 and 18, it gives David Lloyd as the son of Thomas Gwyn and Elinor, daughter of Roger Vaughan.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924096162064&view=1up&seq=687&q1=Elinor
They would be the following:
8. David Lloyd (son of Thomas Gwyn) = Maud (daughter of Watkin Gwilym Prosser of Llangynir)
9. Watkin David Lloyd = Joan Philip Tho-Thir Prosser of the Pool
For what it’s worth (the line from Elizabeth Somerset it sets out isn’t valid), this 1999 book of Magna Charta descents shows does state that this is the case.
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/49232/images/FLHG_MagnaChartaSureties-0066?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=62216
From there, it’s picked up in ‘Le Neve’s Knights‘, on page 470.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005695583&view=1up&seq=578
10. Agnes Lloyd = Edward Jeffreys
11. Watkin Jeffreys = Gwenellian (daughter of Evan ap Owen of Cwmwd)
12. Jeffrey Jeffreys= Sarah Dawes
To prove the relationship between Jeffrey Jeffreys and his eldest son Edward, I have the following references and a summary. Note that Jones’ ‘Brecknock’ does present a problem, as it says Edward died in 1698. This is impossible, however, as Jeffrey Jeffreys names his son Edward sole executor in his will proved in 1709.
References:
(1) Jeffrey Jeffreys’ biography on the ‘History of Parliament’ website
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/jeffreys-jeffrey-1652-1709#footnote2_9cln83q
(2) ‘Virginia Magazine of History and Biography’, Volume 30, number 4’, pages 325, 326, and 328
https://archive.org/details/jstor-4243891/page/n3/mode/2up
(3) Will of John (given in Latin as Johannis) Jeffreys, probated in 1688, page 10 of 12. https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_310597-00536?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=d311633e0c2bd841fd0838c408f85729&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mtO10&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=771376
(4) Will of Jeffrey Jeffreys, probated 26 November 1709 https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_310730-00049?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=2d202af98fc24b42eaf560b6a050e273&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mtO8&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=841798
(5) Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia, 1712-1726’, page 312
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015006970258&view=1up&seq=370
(6) https://www.google.com/maps/place/Brentsville,+VA/@38.2641451,-77.3434374,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b65e1751f6f2f7:0x25e571d8d04046ee!8m2!3d38.7195625!4d-77.5848665?hl=en-us
(7) 1730s map of Stafford County https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3883s.ct006742/?r=0.029,0.315,0.992,1.028,0
(8) Letter from John Carter to Son John, February 10th, 1721, transcription on christchurch1735.org:
https://christchurch1735.org/robert-king-carter-papers/html/C21b10a.mod.html#n2
(9) 1754 lawsuit involving Edward Jefferies https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/61473/images/47913_b354722-10304_00001?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=2b8f3859ae52f3cc48d8a4ea0c3ee8bf&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mtO1&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=82808
(10) Le Neve’s Pedigrees of Knights, beginning on page 470 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005695583&view=1up&seq=578
In his will, Alderman John Jeffreys gave his stock in his company, which was involved in the Tobacco and Slave Trades, to his Nephews Jeffrey Jeffreys and John Jeffreys (1, 3). This explains the fact that, in 1690, Jeffrey and John jointly owned part of a plantation between the Upper Machodoc and Chotank Creeks. John (the Uncle), also owned land in Stafford County, deeded to him by a debtor, Cadawaller Jones, in 1687 (2). In 1720, Edward Jefferies, Esquire, was notified by the House of Burgesses that he had to survey a plantation in modern Brentsville, then in Stafford County, within three years or else the property would be forfeited. This plot matches the description of one supposedly deeded by Jones to John Jeffreys (the Uncle)(2,5,6,7). This is supported by a letter written the next year, in 1721, by Governor Robert Carter to his son, stating:
‘Esquire Jeoffrys holds 14,000 and [odd] Acres of Land in the backwoods of Stafford County It was never yett [sic] Seated or paid
any quit rents nor are the bounds Certainly known. I would
have You know his mind about this Land and where I'm to apply
for my quit Rents, As I suppose the patents for them is in
the name of Cadwalliter Jones, who conveyed them over to the
Alderman or Sr. Jeoffrys this is a matter worth looking after’(8).
In his will in 1709, Jeffrey Jeffreys made Edward Jeffreys, his son, sole executor over his estate, but did not leave him a bequest of money (4). I would suggest that this may be because Edward, Jeffrey’s eldest son according to ‘Le Neve’s Knights’, inherited his father’s Virginia land holdings instead (10). In 1754, an Edward Jefferies, apparently a tobacconist, had an illegal shipment of foreign tobacco stalks seized, along with the ship ‘Prosperous’(9). I cannot prove that this is Edward Jeffreys, Jeffrey Jeffrey’s son. I am still seeking more documentation to complete the timeline for this Edward. I have a secondary source by the supposed great-grandson of an ancestor that could be the correct Edward, but I am not entirely convinced that the above line applies to me.
The line to Saher de Quincy branches off at Edmund Holand in the above royal line. It then follows the Kent line laid out in your book ‘Magna Carta Ancestry’, beginning on page 474.
I would very much appreciate your feedback on whether you think this is a viable gateway line. Of course it needs a lot of work, but I’d love to see it approved at some point, whether I can definitively connect to it or not. I thought that if you expressed your thoughts about it in writing, it is all the more likely to be accepted by lineage societies in the future.
Thanks so much,
Josiah de la Motte