Discussion:
Blair on the cliff's edge
(too old to reply)
midtowng
2004-01-25 08:03:09 UTC
Permalink
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13845,1130811,00.html

Tony Blair put his political future on the line last night when he
admitted for the first time that he considered his job was 'at risk'
48 hours ahead of the two-pronged attack of tuition fees and the
Hutton report.
Saying that the findings of Lord Hutton on the death of weapons
expert David Kelly would be a judgment on his integrity, the Prime
Minister added that whatever the political problems he faced, it was
better to take tough decisions than to look for an easier political
life.
'I think in this job you spend the entire time at risk, so there
is not a moment when you are not,' he said in an interview with The
Observer.
Officials close to the Prime Minister said that if Blair lost the
tuition fees vote on Tuesday and then found himself criticised by
Hutton, 'things could begin to unravel'.
Asked if it was an issue of integrity, he said: 'Of course. The
Conservative leader in particular has accused me of lying over weapons
of mass destruction, and as far as the report touches on these issues
it will be important.'
A YouGov poll for today's Jonathan Dimbleby programme on ITV
found nearly 60 per cent of people felt Blair should resign if he is
criticised by Hutton over the naming of Kelly or Number 10 is found
guilty of exaggerating the case for war. One in three said they
trusted Blair less than before the inquiry began.
Amid signs of growing optimism in Downing Street that the Prime
Minister will not be directly criticised over Kelly's death, aides
said he had not received a letter from Hutton warning of potential
criticism. Such letters are a routine courtesy in public inquiries to
witnesses facing censure, suggesting Blair may be cleared on key
questions - but he may still face trouble at Westminster over the
actions of his Ministers and aides.
[...]
James Knox
2004-01-27 23:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Blair on the cliff's edge
Date: 25/01/2004 08:03 GMT Standard Time
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13845,1130811,00.html
Tony Blair put his political future on the line last night when he
admitted for the first time that he considered his job was 'at risk'
48 hours ahead of the two-pronged attack of tuition fees and the
Hutton report.
Saying that the findings of Lord Hutton on the death of weapons
expert David Kelly would be a judgment on his integrity, the Prime
Minister added that whatever the political problems he faced, it was
better to take tough decisions than to look for an easier political
life.
'I think in this job you spend the entire time at risk, so there
is not a moment when you are not,' he said in an interview with The
Observer.
Officials close to the Prime Minister said that if Blair lost the
tuition fees vote on Tuesday and then found himself criticised by
Hutton, 'things could begin to unravel'.
Asked if it was an issue of integrity, he said: 'Of course. The
Conservative leader in particular has accused me of lying over weapons
of mass destruction, and as far as the report touches on these issues
it will be important.'
A YouGov poll for today's Jonathan Dimbleby programme on ITV
found nearly 60 per cent of people felt Blair should resign if he is
criticised by Hutton over the naming of Kelly or Number 10 is found
guilty of exaggerating the case for war. One in three said they
trusted Blair less than before the inquiry began.
Amid signs of growing optimism in Downing Street that the Prime
Minister will not be directly criticised over Kelly's death, aides
said he had not received a letter from Hutton warning of potential
criticism. Such letters are a routine courtesy in public inquiries to
witnesses facing censure, suggesting Blair may be cleared on key
questions - but he may still face trouble at Westminster over the
actions of his Ministers and aides.
[...]
Over the first hump..... but only just.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3434329.stm

Blair wins key top-up fees vote

Blair now faces the test of the Hutton report

Tony Blair has scraped home by just five votes in a crunch House of Commons
test of his controversial plans to introduce university top-up fees.
The Higher Education Bill was backed by 316 votes to 311 after days of intense
campaigning by ministers and rebels.
<snip>
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-28 04:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Knox
Blair now faces the test of the Hutton report
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2004041477,00.html
====
IT WAS the call every journalist in Westminster was waiting for — and
Britain's top political editor TREVOR KAVANAGH got it.

...
TONY Blair is today sensationally cleared of any "dishonourable or
underhand" conduct leading to the suicide of tragic scientist David
Kelly.

Lord Hutton's long-awaited report into Dr Kelly's death also
exonerates ex-Downing Street media boss Alastair Campbell.

And it makes only passing criticism of the Defence ministry headed by
embattled Geoff Hoon.

But the document — top secret until it is published officially at noon
today — is a devastating indictment of the BBC and its defence
correspondent Andrew Gilligan.
...
"But I am satisfied Dr Kelly did not say the Government probably knew
or suspected the 45-minute claim was wrong before the claim was
inserted in the dossier.

"The allegation reported by Mr Gilligan that the Government probably
knew the claim was wrong or questionable was unfounded." As a result,
Today programme listeners were given a misleading impression that the
Government "embellished" its dossier.

"In the context of the broadcasts in which the ‘sexing up' allegation
was reported, I consider that allegation was unfounded," he says.
====
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-28 17:22:32 UTC
Permalink
It's a clean sweep for Blair in the Hutton report.

Blair:
====
In conclusion I repeat what Lord Hutton said in his Summary, at page
322.
"The communication by the media of information (including information
obtained by investigative reporters) on matters of public interest and
importance is a vital part of life in a democratic society. However
the right to communicate such information is subject to the
qualification (which itself exists for the benefit of a democratic
society) that false accusations of fact impugning the integrity of
others, including politicians, should not be made by the media."
That is how this began: with an accusation that was false then and is
false now.
We can have the debate about the war; about WMD; about intelligence.
But we do not need to conduct it by accusations of lies and deceit. We
can respect each other's motives and integrity even when in
disagreement.
Let me repeat the words of Lord Hutton:
"False accusations of fact impugning the integrity of others ...
should not be made".
Let those that made them now withdraw them.
====
John Doh
2004-01-28 19:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
It's a clean sweep for Blair in the Hutton report.
====
"False accusations of fact impugning the integrity of others ...
should not be made".
Let those that made them now withdraw them.
====
Yeah, as if any Usenet left wingers would have the stones to do THAT.

Maybe Mr. Midtowng would like to say a few words. (He likes to demand that
"right-wingers" denounce stuff he doesn't like.)
--
John D'oh The only possible interpretation of any research whatever
in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't.
-- Ernest Rutherford
midtowng
2004-01-29 01:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Doh
Post by Ernst Blofeld
It's a clean sweep for Blair in the Hutton report.
====
"False accusations of fact impugning the integrity of others ...
should not be made".
Let those that made them now withdraw them.
====
Yeah, as if any Usenet left wingers would have the stones to do THAT.
That's what I love about right-wing useneters. We just got into a war
based on stockpiles WMD and ties to al-Qaeda. Now that those have
been proven to be BS, do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about WMD _programs_.
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs. Do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about human rights. It's _always_ been about
human rights! As if google didn't exist and no one here has
a memory.

But is that ballsy enough? Of course not! Usenet right-wingers will
not only deny their own dishonest, but still accuse people who
aren't right-wingers of being the ones who are dishonest.
I have to tip my hat. That takes stones the size of Mt. Rushmore.
Post by John Doh
Maybe Mr. Midtowng would like to say a few words. (He likes to demand that
"right-wingers" denounce stuff he doesn't like.)
You got that a little wrong. (big surprise there!)
I've asked for right-wingers to denounce attacks on things that
they have told me they stand for (a little different from
"stuff he doesn't like"). Those things include civil rights
and smaller government.
But asking you and your buddies to stand up for things you
say you believe in seems to be asking for too much, because you
just flat out refuse to do so. (Paul is starting to be a lone
exception to that rule. Perhaps if I keep prodding him he might
get downright angry, like he was at Clinton for doing things that
paled in comparison to Bush's attacks on civil rights.)
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-29 02:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
That's what I love about right-wing useneters. We just got into a war
based on stockpiles WMD and ties to al-Qaeda. Now that those have
been proven to be BS, do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about WMD _programs_.
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war. Saddam as a
potential supplier to terrorists was an issue in either
case, and both were prohibited by the UN,
and were not declared in the "full and final" statement
by Iraq. Whether or not the Iraq threat was "imminent"
was irrelevant, since Bush specifically rejected that
criterion in the SOTU address.
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
No, they weren't.

NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/international/middleeast/26KAY.html?hp
====
Dr. Kay also reported that Iraq attempted to revive its efforts to
develop nuclear weapons in 2000 and 2001, but never got as far toward
making a bomb as Iran and Libya did.

He said Baghdad was actively working to produce a biological weapon
using the poison ricin until the American invasion last March.
...
From interviews with Iraqi scientists and other sources, he said, his
team learned that sometime around 1997 and 1998, Iraq plunged into what
he called a "vortex of corruption," when government activities began to
spin out of control because an increasingly isolated and fantasy-riven
Saddam Hussein had insisted on personally authorizing major projects
without input from others.

After the onset of this "dark ages," Dr. Kay said, Iraqi scientists
realized they could go directly to Mr. Hussein and present fanciful
plans for weapons programs, and receive approval and large amounts of
money. Whatever was left of an effective weapons capability, he said,
was largely subsumed into corrupt money-raising schemes by scientists
skilled in the arts of lying and surviving in a fevered police state.

"The whole thing shifted from directed programs to a corrupted process,"
Dr. Kay said. "The regime was no longer in control; it was like a death
spiral. Saddam was self-directing projects that were not vetted by
anyone else. The scientists were able to fake programs."
...
Regarding biological weapons, he said there was evidence that the Iraqis
continued research and development "right up until the end" to improve
their ability to produce ricin. "They were mostly researching better
methods for weaponization," Dr. Kay said. "They were maintaining an
infrastructure, but they didn't have large-scale production under way."
...
He added that Iraq did make an effort to restart its nuclear weapons
program in 2000 and 2001, but that the evidence suggested that the
program was rudimentary at best and would have taken years to rebuild,
after being largely abandoned in the 1990's. "There was a restart of the
nuclear program," he said. "But the surprising thing is that if you
compare it to what we now know about Iran and Libya, the Iraqi program
was never as advanced," Dr. Kay said.
...
Dr. Kay said Iraq had also maintained an active ballistic missile
program that was receiving significant foreign assistance until the
start of the American invasion. He said it appeared that money was put
back into the nuclear weapons program to restart the effort in part
because the Iraqis realized they needed some kind of payload for their
new rockets.
...
Dr. Kay said he believed that Iraq was a danger to the world, but not
the same threat that the Bush administration publicly detailed.

"We know that terrorists were passing through Iraq," he said. "And now
we know that there was little control over Iraq's weapons capabilities.
I think it shows that Iraq was a very dangerous place. The country had
the technology, the ability to produce, and there were terrorist groups
passing through the country — and no central control."
...
"All the analysts I have talked to said they never felt pressured on
W.M.D.," he said. "Everyone believed that they had W.M.D."
...
"The only comment I ever had from the president was to find the
truth," Dr. Kay said. "I never got any pressure to find a certain outcome."
====
Post by midtowng
Do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about human rights. It's _always_ been about
human rights! As if google didn't exist and no one here has
a memory.
Since when has the decision to go to war been only about
one thing to the exclusion of all others? In fact, in my
major post about why we should go to war with Iraq, written
several months before the war, I said there were a number of
reasons--including human rights. You've already been pointed
to this post. Why you choose to misrepresent the positions
of others is up to you, but don't think other people haven't
noticed your dishonesty.
chris.holt
2004-01-29 12:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
Well, the time scale and immediacy of a threat makes a
difference. If someone points a gun at you, you might
feel a bit more threatened than if they just carry a
gun, or if they start procedures to buy a gun. Wouldn't
you say?
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
John Doh
2004-01-29 16:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
Well, the time scale and immediacy of a threat makes a
difference. If someone points a gun at you, you might
feel a bit more threatened than if they just carry a
gun, or if they start procedures to buy a gun. Wouldn't
you say?
Well of course you are ignoring the fact that the intelligence agencies of a
lot of countries DID NOT KNOW how far along Saddam was. That was one of the
things that David Kay pointed out. And it was one of the reasons we took out
Saddam and his slaughter-o-matic regime.
--
John D'oh The only possible interpretation of any research whatever
in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't.
-- Ernest Rutherford
chris.holt
2004-01-29 17:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Doh
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
Well, the time scale and immediacy of a threat makes a
difference. If someone points a gun at you, you might
feel a bit more threatened than if they just carry a
gun, or if they start procedures to buy a gun. Wouldn't
you say?
Well of course you are ignoring the fact that the intelligence agencies of a
lot of countries DID NOT KNOW how far along Saddam was.
I'm not ignoring that; nor am I ignoring that we knew at the
time that a lot of the information presented was spurious,
that the intelligence agencies were protesting at the way
their information was being used by politicians, and that
the inspectors on the ground in Iraq were pleading for more
time to do their job.
Post by John Doh
That was one of the
things that David Kay pointed out. And it was one of the reasons we took out
Saddam and his slaughter-o-matic regime.
Since inspectors were in Iraq, don't you think it might
have been more cost-effective to let them inspect?
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
John Doh
2004-01-29 23:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
Well, the time scale and immediacy of a threat makes a
difference. If someone points a gun at you, you might
feel a bit more threatened than if they just carry a
gun, or if they start procedures to buy a gun. Wouldn't
you say?
Well of course you are ignoring the fact that the intelligence agencies of
a
Post by John Doh
lot of countries DID NOT KNOW how far along Saddam was.
I'm not ignoring that; nor am I ignoring that we knew at the
time that a lot of the information presented was spurious,
that the intelligence agencies were protesting at the way
their information was being used by politicians, and that
the inspectors on the ground in Iraq were pleading for more
time to do their job.
Who are "the intelligence agencies" then? Are you including Russia's and
France's and Germany's too? The CIA has a lot of ass covering going on, and I
bet that's the agency you are referring to.

You also ignored what David Kay said.
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
That was one of the
things that David Kay pointed out. And it was one of the reasons we took
out
Post by John Doh
Saddam and his slaughter-o-matic regime.
Since inspectors were in Iraq, don't you think it might
have been more cost-effective to let them inspect?
Guess you forgot about all of the testimony from the inspectors about the "cat
and mouse" games the Iraqis played. Plenty of time to hide or smuggle out or
destroy stuff they didn't want found.

They completely missed a whole long range missile engine project. Mr. Ernst
Blofeld pointed that out a long time ago.
--
John D'oh The only possible interpretation of any research whatever
in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't.
-- Ernest Rutherford
chris.holt
2004-02-01 19:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Doh
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
Well of course you are ignoring the fact that the intelligence agencies of
a
Post by John Doh
lot of countries DID NOT KNOW how far along Saddam was.
I'm not ignoring that; nor am I ignoring that we knew at the
time that a lot of the information presented was spurious,
that the intelligence agencies were protesting at the way
their information was being used by politicians, and that
the inspectors on the ground in Iraq were pleading for more
time to do their job.
Who are "the intelligence agencies" then? Are you including Russia's and
France's and Germany's too? The CIA has a lot of ass covering going on, and I
bet that's the agency you are referring to.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/hutton/story/0,13845,1136307,00.html

-----
BBC dossier reveals fury at Hutton 'flaws'

· QC outlines Dyke battle plan
· Hutton verdict 'wrong in law'
· Spy chief revealed WMD doubt

Kamal Ahmed, political editor
Sunday February 1, 2004
The Observer
-----

I don't think you paid attention to the Hutton testimony.
Post by John Doh
You also ignored what David Kay said.
He now says there was a massive intelligence failure. That
was obvious when the US government said they knew where
the weapons were, and when the UN inspectors tried following
up their information they found it to be garbage.
Post by John Doh
Post by chris.holt
Since inspectors were in Iraq, don't you think it might
have been more cost-effective to let them inspect?
Guess you forgot about all of the testimony from the inspectors about the "cat
and mouse" games the Iraqis played. Plenty of time to hide or smuggle out or
destroy stuff they didn't want found.
You're wiggling. The UN inspectors wanted to be given
time to do their job.
Post by John Doh
They completely missed a whole long range missile engine project. Mr. Ernst
Blofeld pointed that out a long time ago.
This may surprise you, but that's not WMD.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-02 00:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
They completely missed a whole long range missile engine project. Mr. Ernst
Blofeld pointed that out a long time ago.
This may surprise you, but that's not WMD.
It's prohibited weapons under the cease-fire agreement and
UN resolutions, and falls into the same category as
WMD from any practical standpoint. Their ballistic
missile program was as advanced as it was partly
because it was the longest lead time item for a
restoration of WMD--which everyone agrees was being
planned. Executed in some cases, _thought_ to have been
executed by the Iraqi government in other cases, and
planned in any event.

The intelligence agencies bolixed up the Iraqi nuclear
program the first time around by underestimating it,
and underestimated the Libyan program until quite
recently. The apparent lesson of this is that
intelligence agencies are fundamentally incapable
of accurately predicting the point at which WMD
programs present an "imminent" threat. The idea that
the international community could come to agreement
on both the facts of the situation and what to do
about it is a chimera. So we should
err on the side of caution (to us) and be prepared for
some false positives in a campaign of preemption.

The alternative--false negatives--is much worse.
chris.holt
2004-02-03 17:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
They completely missed a whole long range missile engine project. Mr. Ernst
Blofeld pointed that out a long time ago.
This may surprise you, but that's not WMD.
It's prohibited weapons under the cease-fire agreement and
UN resolutions, and falls into the same category as
WMD from any practical standpoint.
In that case, cluster bombs fall into the same category
as WMD from any practical standpoint, and the US/UK are
guilty of having used WMD in an aggressive war. Do you
want to go there?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The idea that
the international community could come to agreement
on both the facts of the situation and what to do
about it is a chimera. So we should
err on the side of caution (to us) and be prepared for
some false positives in a campaign of preemption.
The alternative--false negatives--is much worse.
I remember back when the burden of proof was on the prosecution;
better let 10 guilty men go free than have one innocent man be
killed unjustly. What a difference a day makes. When is the
US going to bring back the 3rd degree, or has it done so
already? How would we tell?
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-04 00:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
They completely missed a whole long range missile engine project. Mr. Ernst
Blofeld pointed that out a long time ago.
This may surprise you, but that's not WMD.
It's prohibited weapons under the cease-fire agreement and
UN resolutions, and falls into the same category as
WMD from any practical standpoint.
In that case, cluster bombs fall into the same category
as WMD from any practical standpoint, and the US/UK are
guilty of having used WMD in an aggressive war. Do you
want to go there?
You are deeply confused. Cluster bombs are not prohibited
by any international agreement--they're just fancy
fragmentation bombs. Nor are their possession and use
by the US or the UK prohibited by any US law or international
agreement. Unlike, say, the possession of or research
of chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missiles
by Iraq.
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The alternative--false negatives--is much worse.
I remember back when the burden of proof was on the prosecution;
better let 10 guilty men go free than have one innocent man be
killed unjustly.
This isn't domestic law enforcement. And the guys being
whacked--Saddam, Kim Jung Il, the mullahs--are tyrants
who deserve it on general principles. I don't
weep over the end of their regimes.

Indeed, once upon a time "progressives" used to be happy
when fascists got theirs.
chris.holt
2004-02-04 00:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by John Doh
They completely missed a whole long range missile engine project. Mr. Ernst
Blofeld pointed that out a long time ago.
This may surprise you, but that's not WMD.
It's prohibited weapons under the cease-fire agreement and
UN resolutions, and falls into the same category as
WMD from any practical standpoint.
In that case, cluster bombs fall into the same category
as WMD from any practical standpoint, and the US/UK are
guilty of having used WMD in an aggressive war. Do you
want to go there?
You are deeply confused.
Perhaps.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Cluster bombs are not prohibited
by any international agreement--they're just fancy
fragmentation bombs. Nor are their possession and use
by the US or the UK prohibited by any US law or international
agreement.
I understand that. They just happen to kill masses of
people.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Unlike, say, the possession of or research
of chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missiles
by Iraq.
How does a ballistic missile kill masses of people? If
it doesn't, then calling it a de facto WMD is an abuse
of terminology.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The alternative--false negatives--is much worse.
I remember back when the burden of proof was on the prosecution;
better let 10 guilty men go free than have one innocent man be
killed unjustly.
This isn't domestic law enforcement.
Domestic? No. Law enforcement? Well, I guess if
you dismiss both the UN and Geneva conventions and
traditions of when countries are allowed to invade
other countries, perhaps not.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
And the guys being
whacked--Saddam, Kim Jung Il, the mullahs--are tyrants
who deserve it on general principles. I don't
weep over the end of their regimes.
That's not the point. Do you always think that the
ends justify the means?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Indeed, once upon a time "progressives" used to be happy
when fascists got theirs.
When the US supports some fascists while opposing others,
it's hard to believe that the motive for the latter has
much to do with opposing fascism.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-04 02:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
I remember back when the burden of proof was on the prosecution;
better let 10 guilty men go free than have one innocent man be
killed unjustly. What a difference a day makes.
To rephrase this: "It is better to lose ten cities to
WMD attacks rather than to invade and occupy a nation
with a savage dictatorship and no claim to legitimacy
anyway".

The truism isn't all that true anyway. Would you let
a hundred murderers go rather than falsely convict
one? A thousand? Ten thousand? It's kicked around
because it sounds sort of cool and it's arguably
a useful concept when the consequences of accepting
false negatives are small. The calculus changes
when the costs and the benefit change.
chris.holt
2004-02-04 02:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
I remember back when the burden of proof was on the prosecution;
better let 10 guilty men go free than have one innocent man be
killed unjustly. What a difference a day makes.
To rephrase this: "It is better to lose ten cities to
WMD attacks rather than to invade and occupy a nation
with a savage dictatorship and no claim to legitimacy
anyway".
I wondered if you'd take that approach. Let's
rephrase it again in terms of what actually happened,
from your point of view: "It is better to kill tens
of thousands of innocent foreign civilians rather than to
allow for the possibility that a few thousand more
Americans be killed".
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The truism isn't all that true anyway. Would you let
a hundred murderers go rather than falsely convict
one? A thousand? Ten thousand?
Ah yes; the death/suffering tradeoffs. Soon we'll get back
to Bentham, or Shirley Jackson's The Lottery. What
would Jesus say?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
It's kicked around
because it sounds sort of cool and it's arguably
a useful concept when the consequences of accepting
false negatives are small. The calculus changes
when the costs and the benefit change.
I see the *possible* argument. I haven't seen any kind
of attempt to look at cost/benefits in a rational manner,
both because people are too emotional about it, and
because these things are so hard (if not impossible) to
quantify.

So we go back to the simple question: when do the ends
justify the means? And the important subsidiary question:
when does pursuing ends regardless of means subvert the
ends themselves?
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
midtowng
2004-01-30 05:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
That's what I love about right-wing useneters. We just got into a war
based on stockpiles WMD and ties to al-Qaeda. Now that those have
been proven to be BS, do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about WMD _programs_.
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
That can only because you don't WANT to see the difference.
I'll explain it to you very clearly:

The former poses no threat. The latter does.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Saddam as a
potential supplier to terrorists was an issue in either
case,
Invading martians are also a "potential" threat, but
we haven't declared wars on mars either.
Both were about as likely since even after Saddam was
out of power he still didn't want to deal with the foreigners.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
No, they weren't.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/international/middleeast/26KAY.html?hp
Yes they were. Your article below in no way changes the
fact that they were nothing more than projects on paper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true

Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
Since Gulf War, Nonconventional Weapons Never Got Past the Planning
Stage
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about human rights. It's _always_ been about
human rights! As if google didn't exist and no one here has
a memory.
Since when has the decision to go to war been only about
one thing to the exclusion of all others?
Well, sh*t! That's the only thing left!

In fact, in my
Post by Ernst Blofeld
major post about why we should go to war with Iraq, written
several months before the war, I said there were a number of
reasons--including human rights. You've already been pointed
to this post. Why you choose to misrepresent the positions
of others is up to you, but don't think other people haven't
noticed your dishonesty.
One thing I've noticed about usenet, and mankind in general,
is that liars like to accuse other people of
lying. And when they finally get called out on it, they
shout "liar" even louder.
As for "misrepresenting the positions of others", I
don't have to remind you of the times I was accused of being
either a coward or unpatriotic for waiting for a "nuclear cloud
over New York".
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-30 22:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
That can only because you don't WANT to see the difference.
The former poses no threat. The latter does.
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when
have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting
us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully
and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations
would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam
Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
No, they weren't.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/international/middleeast/26KAY.html?hp
Yes they were. Your article below in no way changes the
fact that they were nothing more than projects on paper.
The ricin project was not "on paper". They were actively attempting
to weaponize the poison. I find it interesting that Answar al Islam
was also working with ricin.
Post by midtowng
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true
Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
Since Gulf War, Nonconventional Weapons Never Got Past the Planning
Stage
[...]
This conflates "arms" with "programs". You asserted that the
_programs to produce the arms_ were only on paper. They weren't.

Some of this is prior to and contradicts Kay's testimony. For
example:

"And they have found the former nuclear weapons program, described as a
"grave and gathering danger" by President Bush and a "mortal threat" by
Vice President Cheney, in much the same shattered state left by U.N.
inspectors in the 1990s."

Kay said the program was restarted in 2000 and 2001 before being
shut down again.

"David Kay, who directs the weapons hunt on behalf of the Bush
administration, reported no discoveries last year of finished weapons,
bulk agents or ready-to-start production lines."

This does not mean the _programs_ were all "on paper". They
didn't have (apparently) finished products, but they did
have active programs that went beyond doodling on paper.
Post by midtowng
As for "misrepresenting the positions of others", I
don't have to remind you of the times I was accused of being
either a coward or unpatriotic for waiting for a "nuclear cloud
over New York".
Perhaps you can provide a post in which I said that.
James Knox
2004-01-31 01:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Blair on the cliff's edge
Date: 30/01/2004 22:28 GMT Standard Time
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I don't see any effective difference between WMD programs and
WMD stockpiles in the decision to go to war.
That can only because you don't WANT to see the difference.
The former poses no threat. The latter does.
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when
have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting
us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully
and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations
would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam
Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
Kill 'em all let god sort'em out?
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-31 02:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Knox
Post by Ernst Blofeld
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when
have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting
us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully
and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations
would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam
Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
Kill 'em all let god sort'em out?
Liberate 'em all and let democratic action sort 'em out?

I'm curious as to why you think Saddam Hussien's regime had
any legitimacy.
midtowng
2004-01-31 07:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by James Knox
Post by Ernst Blofeld
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when
have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting
us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully
and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations
would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam
Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
It's also a strawman. Saddam didn't even have the capability to
threaten his neighbors, much less us.
And this was blindingly obvious before the war. There was no
threat from Saddam before the war, imminent or otherwise. More
importantly, everyone with a lick of sense knew it.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by James Knox
Kill 'em all let god sort'em out?
Liberate 'em all and let democratic action sort 'em out?
Yea. Our foreign policy history really reflects that. NOT!
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I'm curious as to why you think Saddam Hussien's regime had
any legitimacy.
It certainly had legitimacy with the GOP during the 80's.
James Knox
2004-01-31 18:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Blair on the cliff's edge
Date: 31/01/2004 07:29 GMT Standard Time
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by James Knox
Post by Ernst Blofeld
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when
have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting
us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully
and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations
would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam
Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
It's also a strawman. Saddam didn't even have the capability to
threaten his neighbors, much less us.
And this was blindingly obvious before the war. There was no
threat from Saddam before the war, imminent or otherwise. More
importantly, everyone with a lick of sense knew it.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by James Knox
Kill 'em all let god sort'em out?
Liberate 'em all and let democratic action sort 'em out?
Yea. Our foreign policy history really reflects that. NOT!
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I'm curious as to why you think Saddam Hussien's regime had
any legitimacy.
It certainly had legitimacy with the GOP during the 80's.
That being the era when Saddam posed a real threat to his neighbours - as Iran
and Kuwait found out, when he posessed Chemical Weapons rather than just
coveted them, and when his killing of his own people was at its height.
chris.holt
2004-02-01 19:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by James Knox
Post by Ernst Blofeld
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since
when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely
putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted
to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all
recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and
restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option."
Kill 'em all let god sort'em out?
Liberate 'em all and let democratic action sort 'em out?
A lot of people are less free now than they were a year ago.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
I'm curious as to why you think Saddam Hussien's regime had
any legitimacy.
It had neither more nor less legitimacy last year than it did
15 years before.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Paul Havemann
2004-01-29 17:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
That's what I love about right-wing useneters. We just got into a war
based on stockpiles WMD and ties to al-Qaeda. Now that those have
been proven to be BS, do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about WMD _programs_.
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Man, you're like a dog with a bone. Did you even bother to read
all of what Kay's been saying, or are you just gonna go on
believing your cherished notions forever? Ernst has already shoved
the NY Times article in your face; read it. And lest you forget,
Kay also reminds you of this:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/kay.transcript/

Senator Kennedy and I talked on several occasions prior to the
war that my view was that the best evidence that I had seen was
that Iraq indeed had weapons of mass destruction.

I would also point out that many governments that chose not to
support this war -- certainly, the French president, [Jacques]
Chirac, as I recall in April of last year, referred to Iraq's
possession of WMD.

The Germans certainly -- the intelligence service believed that
there were WMD.

And, of course, Kay worked for the UN, which *also* believed
that Iraq had WMD.

Kay is absolutely correct to say that "It turns out that we were
all wrong, probably in my judgment, and that is most disturbing."

There were intelligence failures across the board, and not only in
the US. As hard as you try, you can't chalk that all up to a Big
Neocon Konspiracy to Invade Iraq, so maybe you should grow up and
join the discussion over why those failures occurred, and what to
do about it. Blaming it all on Bush won't wash. (Pre-emptive
strike: I started talking about intelligence failures a long time
ago, particularly wondering why the hell Tenet still has a job.)
Martin McPhillips
2004-01-29 17:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Havemann
Post by midtowng
That's what I love about right-wing useneters. We just got into a war
based on stockpiles WMD and ties to al-Qaeda. Now that those have
been proven to be BS, do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about WMD _programs_.
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Man, you're like a dog with a bone. Did you even bother to read
all of what Kay's been saying, or are you just gonna go on
believing your cherished notions forever? Ernst has already shoved
the NY Times article in your face; read it. And lest you forget,
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/kay.transcript/
Senator Kennedy and I talked on several occasions prior to the
war that my view was that the best evidence that I had seen was
that Iraq indeed had weapons of mass destruction.
I would also point out that many governments that chose not to
support this war -- certainly, the French president, [Jacques]
Chirac, as I recall in April of last year, referred to Iraq's
possession of WMD.
The Germans certainly -- the intelligence service believed that
there were WMD.
And, of course, Kay worked for the UN, which *also* believed
that Iraq had WMD.
Kay is absolutely correct to say that "It turns out that we were
all wrong, probably in my judgment, and that is most disturbing."
There were intelligence failures across the board, and not only in
the US. As hard as you try, you can't chalk that all up to a Big
Neocon Konspiracy to Invade Iraq, so maybe you should grow up and
join the discussion over why those failures occurred, and what to
do about it. Blaming it all on Bush won't wash. (Pre-emptive
strike: I started talking about intelligence failures a long time
ago, particularly wondering why the hell Tenet still has a job.)
I agree with much of that, but would add that at this
point nothing is what it seems.

The Soviets trained the Iraqis, and what the Iraqi
foreign minister said in Bulgaria yesterday is consistent
with how the Soviets would deal with something
that they were determined to keep hidden.

I should add to that that the Soviets also had
specific methods for disposing of something that
they didn't want found, but I'm betting against
that option.

As for Kay, I think his statements are very carefully
worded.

My underlying views are these:

1. Saddam never threw anything away, other than
human beings.

2. Saddam would sooner hand over his children
to the Syrians than to give them any significant
weaponry.

3. His pack-rat methods are to be adduced
on the basis of where he himself was found
to be hiding, as to the type of the where, not
the location.
Paul Havemann
2004-01-29 22:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin McPhillips
I agree with much of that, but would add that at this
point nothing is what it seems.
The Soviets trained the Iraqis, and what the Iraqi
foreign minister said in Bulgaria yesterday is consistent
with how the Soviets would deal with something
that they were determined to keep hidden.
I haven't read about that, but David Kay had more to
say than the carefully selected snippets that the media
has chosen to report:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42655-2004Jan23.html

Text of Reuters Interview with David Kay

Q: Is it true that one of the reasons you wanted to step down was
because you don't believe that anything will be found, is that
true?

A: "No. No, that wasn't the reason. In fact, the reason I thought
it important to complete everything is that ... by the time we get
to June ... we're not going to find much after June. Once the
Iraqis take complete control of the government it is just almost
impossible to operate in the way that we operate. In fact it was
already becoming tough. We had an important ministry that would
not allow its people to be interviewed unless they had someone
present. It was like the old regime.

"I think we have found probably 85 percent of what we're going to
find.

Something he repeated in his opening remarks before the Senate
Armed Services Committee:

And let me really wrap up here with just a brief summary of what I
think we are now facing in Iraq. I regret to say that I think at
the end of the work of the [Iraq Survey Group] there's still going
to be an unresolvable ambiguity about what happened.

A lot of that traces to the failure on April 9 to establish
immediately physical security in Iraq -- the unparalleled looting
and destruction, a lot of which was directly intentional, designed
by the security services to cover the tracks of the Iraq WMD
program and their other programs as well, a lot of which was what
we simply called Ali Baba looting. "It had been the regime's. The
regime is gone. I'm going to go take the gold toilet fixtures and
everything else imaginable."

I've seen looting around the world and thought I knew the best
looters in the world. The Iraqis excel at that.

The result is -- document destruction -- we're really not going to
be able to prove beyond a truth the negatives and some of the
positive conclusions that we're going to come to. There will be
always unresolved ambiguity here.


Translation: We just don't know either way, and it may be a long
time before we know, if we ever do. I think that's pretty clear.
Of course, one has to have an open mind to accept it.
Martin McPhillips
2004-01-29 23:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Havemann
Post by Martin McPhillips
The Soviets trained the Iraqis, and what the Iraqi
foreign minister said in Bulgaria yesterday is consistent
with how the Soviets would deal with something
that they were determined to keep hidden.
I haven't read about that, but David Kay had more to
say than the carefully selected snippets that the media
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42655-2004Jan23.html
Text of Reuters Interview with David Kay
Q: Is it true that one of the reasons you wanted to step down was
because you don't believe that anything will be found, is that
true?
A: "No. No, that wasn't the reason. In fact, the reason I thought
it important to complete everything is that ... by the time we get
to June ... we're not going to find much after June. Once the
Iraqis take complete control of the government it is just almost
impossible to operate in the way that we operate. In fact it was
already becoming tough. We had an important ministry that would
not allow its people to be interviewed unless they had someone
present. It was like the old regime.
"I think we have found probably 85 percent of what we're going to
find.
....
Post by Paul Havemann
I've seen looting around the world and thought I knew the best
looters in the world. The Iraqis excel at that.
The result is -- document destruction -- we're really not going to
be able to prove beyond a truth the negatives and some of the
positive conclusions that we're going to come to. There will be
always unresolved ambiguity here.
Translation: We just don't know either way, and it may be a long
time before we know, if we ever do. I think that's pretty clear.
Of course, one has to have an open mind to accept it.
I take Kay's comments as being made in good faith.

They were made very carefully, and the door
was left open for future developments.

I was curious about why, at the end of what
is clearly a classified mission, he immediately made
comments to a number of media outfits -- beginning
with Reuters. I'm not sure that it was without
design, but it's not clear to me who's design it
would be.

My instincts tell me that the Iraqi foreign minister
has the matter about right.
chris.holt
2004-01-29 18:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Havemann
Man, you're like a dog with a bone. Did you even bother to read
all of what Kay's been saying, or are you just gonna go on
believing your cherished notions forever? Ernst has already shoved
the NY Times article in your face; read it. And lest you forget,
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/kay.transcript/
Senator Kennedy and I talked on several occasions prior to the
war that my view was that the best evidence that I had seen was
that Iraq indeed had weapons of mass destruction.
I would also point out that many governments that chose not to
support this war -- certainly, the French president, [Jacques]
Chirac, as I recall in April of last year, referred to Iraq's
possession of WMD.
The Germans certainly -- the intelligence service believed that
there were WMD.
And, of course, Kay worked for the UN, which *also* believed
that Iraq had WMD.
But the point is that even if people believed Iraq had WMD,
nobody believed that they were a serious threat (except
the folks who thought that Iraq funded al Qaeada, I
guess).
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Martin McPhillips
2004-01-29 18:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by Paul Havemann
Man, you're like a dog with a bone. Did you even bother to read
all of what Kay's been saying, or are you just gonna go on
believing your cherished notions forever? Ernst has already shoved
the NY Times article in your face; read it. And lest you forget,
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/kay.transcript/
Senator Kennedy and I talked on several occasions prior to the
war that my view was that the best evidence that I had seen was
that Iraq indeed had weapons of mass destruction.
I would also point out that many governments that chose not to
support this war -- certainly, the French president, [Jacques]
Chirac, as I recall in April of last year, referred to Iraq's
possession of WMD.
The Germans certainly -- the intelligence service believed that
there were WMD.
And, of course, Kay worked for the UN, which *also* believed
that Iraq had WMD.
But the point is that even if people believed Iraq had WMD,
nobody believed that they were a serious threat (except
the folks who thought that Iraq funded al Qaeada, I
guess).
No, the point is that the Iraqi regime was capable of
anything. It could not be relied upon to abstain from
terrorism, from harboring terrorists, from sponsoring
terrorists and terrorism, from having or making or
using WMDs.

It was an outlaw regime, its case had been adjudicated
over a dozen years by the UN Security Council. It
had been established beyond reasonable doubt that
the regime would refuse to do that which would allow
Iraq to again claim fair standing among the community
of nations.

Now that regime is gone and Iraq is off to a fresh
start. That is good, which in this world is better than
evil. I understand that in the private world you live
in no such distinctions are possible.
John Doh
2004-01-29 23:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin McPhillips
Post by chris.holt
But the point is that even if people believed Iraq had WMD,
nobody believed that they were a serious threat (except
the folks who thought that Iraq funded al Qaeada, I
guess).
No, the point is that the Iraqi regime was capable of
anything. It could not be relied upon to abstain from
terrorism, from harboring terrorists, from sponsoring
terrorists and terrorism, from having or making or
using WMDs.
It was an outlaw regime, its case had been adjudicated
over a dozen years by the UN Security Council. It
had been established beyond reasonable doubt that
the regime would refuse to do that which would allow
Iraq to again claim fair standing among the community
of nations.
Now that regime is gone and Iraq is off to a fresh
start. That is good, which in this world is better than
evil. I understand that in the private world you live
in no such distinctions are possible.
Well, some people live in a world where freeing millions of people from a
dictator is cause for shame.
--
John D'oh The only possible interpretation of any research whatever
in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't.
-- Ernest Rutherford
midtowng
2004-01-30 06:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Havemann
Post by midtowng
That's what I love about right-wing useneters. We just got into a war
based on stockpiles WMD and ties to al-Qaeda. Now that those have
been proven to be BS, do usenet right-wingers fess up?
Hell NO! It's about WMD _programs_.
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Man, you're like a dog with a bone. Did you even bother to read
all of what Kay's been saying, or are you just gonna go on
believing your cherished notions forever?
Obviously it is you who didn't read the article, but it does
nothing to prove Ernst's claims.
Post by Paul Havemann
Ernst has already shoved
the NY Times article in your face; read it. And lest you forget,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true
Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
Since Gulf War, Nonconventional Weapons Never Got Past the Planning
Stage
Post by Paul Havemann
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/28/kay.transcript/
Senator Kennedy and I talked on several occasions prior to the
war that my view was that the best evidence that I had seen was
that Iraq indeed had weapons of mass destruction.
I would also point out that many governments that chose not to
support this war -- certainly, the French president, [Jacques]
Chirac, as I recall in April of last year, referred to Iraq's
possession of WMD.
The Germans certainly -- the intelligence service believed that
there were WMD.
And, of course, Kay worked for the UN, which *also* believed
that Iraq had WMD.
Kay is absolutely correct to say that "It turns out that we were
all wrong, probably in my judgment, and that is most disturbing."
There were intelligence failures across the board, and not only in
the US. As hard as you try, you can't chalk that all up to a Big
Neocon Konspiracy to Invade Iraq, so maybe you should grow up and
join the discussion over why those failures occurred, and what to
do about it. Blaming it all on Bush won't wash. (Pre-emptive
strike: I started talking about intelligence failures a long time
ago, particularly wondering why the hell Tenet still has a job.)
For starters you didn't address my point above.
Let me explain it to you again:
the failure of pro-war people to fess up that this war was
unjustified.

Even now Ernst is telling me that there is no difference between
WMD stockpiles and WMD programs.
The mind boggles at that lack of logic. But then I know where he
got it from because Bush is trying to pass off the same thing.
Even the major media is skeptical of that one.

Now Ernst, you and others are trying to tell me that the WMD
programs were a danger, when all facts show otherwise.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true

In public statements and unauthorized interviews, investigators said
they have discovered no work on former germ-warfare agents such as
anthrax bacteria, and no work on a new designer pathogen -- combining
pox virus and snake venom -- that led U.S. scientists on a highly
classified hunt for several months. The investigators assess that Iraq
did not, as charged in London and Washington, resume production of its
most lethal nerve agent, VX, or learn to make it last longer in
storage. And they have found the former nuclear weapons program,
described as a "grave and gathering danger" by President Bush and a
"mortal threat" by Vice President Cheney, in much the same shattered
state left by U.N. inspectors in the 1990s.
[...]


And now we are told that it was all the fault of the intelligence
community, as if we have all forgotten:
a) that the Bush Administration has repeatedly leaked raw
intelligence reports that the CIA itself doubted
b) that even Powell had to reject some of the things that the Bush
Administration wanted him to say because he didn't believe it
c) that the Bush Administration has stuck by claims repeatedly
rejected for foreign intelligence agencies and its own
d) that in the case of its own, the Bush Administration then
blew the cover on one undercover agent for political revenge

This can't be considered some random events. Not in a discussion
between adults. Kay gives the Bush Administration the benefit of the
doubt. Well Gee! He's the Bush Administration's boy to begin with!
He's already slanted his reports in Bush's favor to the point
that intelligence experts came out and slammed it.

I'll let Krugman sum this one up:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/30/opinion/30KRUG.html

So where are the apologies? Where are the resignations? Where is the
investigation of this intelligence debacle? All we have is bluster
from Dick Cheney, evasive W.M.D.-related-program-activity language
from Mr. Bush — and a determined effort to prevent an independent
inquiry.

True, Mr. Kay still claims that this was a pure intelligence failure.
I don't buy it: the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has
issued a damning report on how the threat from Iraq was hyped, and
former officials warned of politicized intelligence during the war
buildup. (Yes, the Hutton report gave Tony Blair a clean bill of
health, but many people — including a majority of the British public,
according to polls — regard that report as a whitewash.)

In any case, the point is that a grave mistake was made, and America's
credibility has been badly damaged — and nobody is being held
accountable. But that's standard operating procedure. As far as I can
tell, nobody in the Bush administration has ever paid a price for
being wrong. Instead, people are severely punished for telling
inconvenient truths. And administration officials have consistently
sought to freeze out, undermine or intimidate anyone who might try to
check up on their performance.

Let's look at three examples. First is the Valerie Plame affair. When
someone in the administration revealed that Ms. Plame was an
undercover C.I.A. operative, one probable purpose was to intimidate
intelligence professionals. And whatever becomes of the Justice
Department investigation, the White House has been notably
uninterested in finding the culprit. ("We have let the earthmovers
roll in over this one," a senior White House official told The
Financial Times.)

Then there's the stonewalling about 9/11. First the administration
tried, in defiance of all historical precedents, to prevent any
independent inquiry. Then it tried to appoint Henry Kissinger, of all
people, to head the investigative panel. Then it obstructed the
commission, denying it access to crucial documents and testimony. Now,
thanks to all the delays and impediments, the panel's head says it
can't deliver its report by the original May 11 deadline — and the
administration is trying to prevent a time extension.

Finally, an important story that has largely evaded public attention:
the effort to prevent oversight of Iraq spending. Government agencies
normally have independent, strictly nonpartisan inspectors general,
with broad powers to investigate questionable spending. But the new
inspector general's office in Iraq operates under unique rules that
greatly limit both its powers and its independence.

And the independence of the Pentagon's own inspector general's office
is also in question. Last September, in a move that should have caused
shock waves, the administration appointed L. Jean Lewis as the
office's chief of staff. Ms. Lewis played a central role in the
Whitewater witch hunt (seven years, $70 million, no evidence of
Clinton wrongdoing); nobody could call her nonpartisan. So when Mr.
Bush's defenders demand hard proof of profiteering in Iraq — as
opposed to extensive circumstantial evidence — bear in mind that the
administration has systematically undermined the power and
independence of institutions that might have provided that proof.

And there are many more examples. These people politicize everything,
from military planning to scientific assessments. If you're with them,
you pay no penalty for being wrong. If you don't tell them what they
want to hear, you're an enemy, and being right is no excuse.

Still, the big story isn't about Mr. Bush; it's about what's happening
to America. Other presidents would have liked to bully the C.I.A.,
stonewall investigations and give huge contracts to their friends
without oversight. They knew, however, that they couldn't. What has
gone wrong with our country that allows this president to get away
with such things?
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-30 22:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
"Programs" and "arms" are not the same thing. You're attempting
to steal a base by conflating the two.
midtowng
2004-01-31 02:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
"Programs" and "arms" are not the same thing. You're attempting
to steal a base by conflating the two.
I've posted this at least times now and you still haven't
read it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true

In public statements and unauthorized interviews, investigators said
they have discovered no work on former germ-warfare agents such as
anthrax bacteria, and no work on a new designer pathogen -- combining
pox virus and snake venom -- that led U.S. scientists on a highly
classified hunt for several months. The investigators assess that Iraq
did not, as charged in London and Washington, resume production of its
most lethal nerve agent, VX, or learn to make it last longer in
storage. And they have found the former nuclear weapons program,
described as a "grave and gathering danger" by President Bush and a
"mortal threat" by Vice President Cheney, in much the same shattered
state left by U.N. inspectors in the 1990s.
[...]
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-31 07:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
"Programs" and "arms" are not the same thing. You're attempting
to steal a base by conflating the two.
I've posted this at least times now and you still haven't
read it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true
In public statements and unauthorized interviews, investigators said
they have discovered no work on former germ-warfare agents such as
anthrax bacteria, and no work on a new designer pathogen -- combining
pox virus and snake venom -- that led U.S. scientists on a highly
classified hunt for several months.
David Kay interview:

====
Kay also reported that Iraq attempted to revive its efforts to develop
nuclear weapons in 2001 and 2002, but never got as far toward making a
bomb as Iran and Libya.
.
He said that Baghdad was actively working to produce a biological weapon
using the poison ricin until the American invasion last March.
...
On the biological weapons front, he said there is evidence that the
Iraqis continued research and development, "right up until the end" to
improve their ability to produce ricin. "They were maintaining an
infrastructure...
====

Your assertion was that all, _all_, WMD _programs_, not
weapons, _programs_ were on paper. This is contradicted by
David Kay.

If you want to climb down from that position, fine. Go
ahead. But don't pretend you've answered the issue by
posting irrelevant information that does not address
Kay's remarks, ie that _some_ programs were active and
more than on paper.
midtowng
2004-01-31 17:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by midtowng
And then it turns out those WMD programs were nothing more than
paper programs.
Iraq's Arsenal Was Only on Paper
"Programs" and "arms" are not the same thing. You're attempting
to steal a base by conflating the two.
I've posted this at least times now and you still haven't
read it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60340-2004Jan6&notFound=true
In public statements and unauthorized interviews, investigators said
they have discovered no work on former germ-warfare agents such as
anthrax bacteria, and no work on a new designer pathogen -- combining
pox virus and snake venom -- that led U.S. scientists on a highly
classified hunt for several months.
====
Kay also reported that Iraq attempted to revive its efforts to develop
nuclear weapons in 2001 and 2002, but never got as far toward making a
bomb as Iran and Libya.
.
He said that Baghdad was actively working to produce a biological weapon
using the poison ricin until the American invasion last March.
...
On the biological weapons front, he said there is evidence that the
Iraqis continued research and development, "right up until the end" to
improve their ability to produce ricin. "They were maintaining an
infrastructure...
====
Your assertion was that all, _all_, WMD _programs_, not
weapons, _programs_ were on paper. This is contradicted by
David Kay.
If you want to climb down from that position, fine. Go
ahead. But don't pretend you've answered the issue by
posting irrelevant information that does not address
Kay's remarks, ie that _some_ programs were active and
more than on paper.
Just look at how far down you've come. You've gone from
WMD stockpiles (including nuclear, smallpox, anthrax, etc).
To WMD programs. And now to _a_ WMD program.
Fine. They had _a_ WMD program. Possibly even two.
This just reinforces my point! A single program that hadn't
even advanced far enough along to actually produce anything.
That's pathetic!
You call this a reason to invade a country, kill tens of
thousands of innocent civilians, get hundreds of Americans
killed, piss off almost all of our allies, alienate the
entire muslim world, and divide the nation?
I ask again - where the apology?
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-31 18:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Your assertion was that all, _all_, WMD _programs_, not
weapons, _programs_ were on paper. This is contradicted by
David Kay.
If you want to climb down from that position, fine. Go
ahead. But don't pretend you've answered the issue by
posting irrelevant information that does not address
Kay's remarks, ie that _some_ programs were active and
more than on paper.
Just look at how far down you've come. You've gone from
WMD stockpiles (including nuclear, smallpox, anthrax, etc).
To WMD programs. And now to _a_ WMD program.
How many liters of anthrax or ricin do terrorists need
to cause havoc in the US? Even test quantities are adequate.

The sanctions and embargoes were obviously collapsing--
not surprising, since Iraq has something people want
(oil) and are willing to pay for. The French and Russians
were pushing to eliminate sanctions, and with that the
obvious intention of the Iraqis to have a large WMD
program would have been realized.

Put simply--Saddam Hussien was not to be trusted, and up
to no good. If he wanted to run a gigantic deception program
to convince the world he had WMD, well, it worked--catastrohpically
so for him.
Post by midtowng
You call this a reason to invade a country, kill tens of
thousands of innocent civilians, get hundreds of Americans
killed, piss off almost all of our allies, alienate the
entire muslim world, and divide the nation?
Yeah.

So where's your apology for the things you so confidently
predicted that didn't happen? No humanitarian catastrophe,
no Turkish invasion, no "arab street" (aside from those
bought and paid for by Saddam), and so on.
midtowng
2004-02-01 00:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Your assertion was that all, _all_, WMD _programs_, not
weapons, _programs_ were on paper. This is contradicted by
David Kay.
If you want to climb down from that position, fine. Go
ahead. But don't pretend you've answered the issue by
posting irrelevant information that does not address
Kay's remarks, ie that _some_ programs were active and
more than on paper.
Just look at how far down you've come. You've gone from
WMD stockpiles (including nuclear, smallpox, anthrax, etc).
To WMD programs. And now to _a_ WMD program.
How many liters of anthrax or ricin do terrorists need
to cause havoc in the US? Even test quantities are adequate.
And yet he didn't have any, therefore making your
point moot.
What's more, he didn't trust foreign terrorists and
had no connections with them. Therefore, making any
inkling of a threat a bogus assertion.
And finally, there is the fact that he had nothing to
gain and everything to lose by making a terrorist
strike against the US.

But we've been down this road before. You keep tossing
out points that have been disproven again and again.
That's dishonesty.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The sanctions and embargoes were obviously collapsing--
not surprising, since Iraq has something people want
(oil) and are willing to pay for. The French and Russians
were pushing to eliminate sanctions, and with that the
obvious intention of the Iraqis to have a large WMD
program would have been realized.
That's a bogus assertion for two reasons:
1) even accepting your premise the problem was winning
over allies, not invading Iraq
2) he didn't need a dropping of sanctions to create primitive
chemical weapons, therefore the sanctions were not an
issue
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Put simply--Saddam Hussien was not to be trusted, and up
to no good.
That is true, but it also applies to several of our allies
and a whole bunch of countries we have no intention of invading.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If he wanted to run a gigantic deception program
to convince the world he had WMD, well, it worked--catastrohpically
so for him.
If that was his intention then:
a) why did he keep telling the world the truth? (ie that he
didn't have any)
b) why did he allow the inspectors back into the country?

This is not logical. What makes a lot more sense is that
the neo-conservatives pushed it so hard that the right-wing
in this country put the blame on Saddam for something they
were so certain of.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
You call this a reason to invade a country, kill tens of
thousands of innocent civilians, get hundreds of Americans
killed, piss off almost all of our allies, alienate the
entire muslim world, and divide the nation?
Yeah.
Then you have screwed up values.
They don't match any religion on Earth.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
So where's your apology for the things you so confidently
predicted that didn't happen? No humanitarian catastrophe,
no Turkish invasion, no "arab street" (aside from those
bought and paid for by Saddam), and so on.
This is a strawman for several reasons:
1) I never predicted a turkish invasion
2) the humanitarian catastrophe DID happen (what do you think
the Iraqi people have been complaining about?)
3) the arab street DOES hate us, like I said they would.
I didn't predict they would violently rise up

4) But most importantly, I didn't back a war that killed
more than ten thousand innocent civilians based on a
pack of false assumptions and lies. YOU did.
It is YOU who was on the wrong end of a screwed up
action.
I said Saddam was no threat. You disagreed. You
were wrong. I was right.
I said we wouldn't be welcomed as liberators, and that
the real fighting would start after Saddam's army was
routed. You disagreed. You were wrong. I was right.
Even if my predictions were wrong, which they weren't,
following my advice wouldn't have cost anyone their lives.
Following your advice cost tens of thousands of lives
to remove a threat that never existed.

So I ask again - where's the apology?
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-01 08:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
How many liters of anthrax or ricin do terrorists need
to cause havoc in the US? Even test quantities are adequate.
And yet he didn't have any, therefore making your
point moot.
They certainly did have ricin. As I've mentioned before,
I find it interesting that ansar al Islam was also heavily
invested in ricin, and that ricin showed up in planned
attacks in Europe recently.
Post by midtowng
And finally, there is the fact that he had nothing to
gain and everything to lose by making a terrorist
strike against the US.
Quick--can you prove the ricin in the European plots
was or was not from the Iraqi state? Why is that? Maybe,
just maybe, because it's hard to track the source
of things like that?
Post by midtowng
That's dishonesty.
I'm not the one repeatedly climbing down from previous
assertions in this thread--that Iraq's WMD programs
were "only on paper", that I'd called you a coward
or a traitor, and so on.

You have a fine history of reckless charges and
slime. "Goebells-esque?" "McCarthyite?" "idle
dismissal of life?" Yes, all from your keyboard.

I'm willing to write a lot of that off as mere
stupidity on your part. But not all of it. You're
a slimeball, and have a history of sliming other
people, including myself and Paul Haveman. Not
that I expect you to reflect on this at all--
that would require some introspection on your
part--but, who knows.
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If he wanted to run a gigantic deception program
to convince the world he had WMD, well, it worked--catastrohpically
so for him.
a) why did he keep telling the world the truth? (ie that he
didn't have any)
Yes, it would have made a lot of sense for him to announce
that he had WMD, and therfore legitimize every international
action taken against him. Jesus.

Look, the evidence is clear that Saddam _thought_ he had
WMD. Apparently there was so much red-on-red deception
going on that the truth was hidden from even him. Most
of the Republican Guard units knew they didn't have
WMD, but were convinced the units next to them did.
Post by midtowng
This is not logical. What makes a lot more sense is that
the neo-conservatives pushed it so hard that the right-wing
in this country put the blame on Saddam for something they
were so certain of.
Sigh. The neo-cons were so powerful that they infiltrated
the Clinton administration, which was convinced that
Iraq had WMD, too. And infiltrated down to the analyst
level at the CIA, nearly all of whom were convinced that
Iraq had WMD. And the intelligence agencies of Great
Britian, France, and Germany, too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64626-2004Jan30.html
====
Congressional and CIA investigations into the prewar intelligence on
Iraq's weapons and links to terrorism have found no evidence that CIA
analysts colored their judgment because of perceived or actual political
pressure from White House officials, according to intelligence officials
and congressional officials from both parties.
====

Of course, it's much easier to just go off into the paranoid
style of politics and ascribe it all to a dark conspiracy.
At least for you.
Post by midtowng
4) But most importantly, I didn't back a war that killed
more than ten thousand innocent civilians based on a
pack of false assumptions and lies.
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184

44,000 lives saved so far.
midtowng
2004-02-01 19:43:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
How many liters of anthrax or ricin do terrorists need
to cause havoc in the US? Even test quantities are adequate.
And yet he didn't have any, therefore making your
point moot.
They certainly did have ricin.
Not by anything you've posted.
You mention a ricin _program_. Do you even bother
to read the articles you post?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
As I've mentioned before,
I find it interesting that ansar al Islam was also heavily
invested in ricin, and that ricin showed up in planned
attacks in Europe recently.
And you continued to spout the lie about Iraqi intelligence
meeting with 9/11 plotters months after the Czech intelligence
admitted they were wrong.
Your speculations no longer interest me.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
And finally, there is the fact that he had nothing to
gain and everything to lose by making a terrorist
strike against the US.
Quick--can you prove the ricin in the European plots
was or was not from the Iraqi state?
Yes. Becuase it was a ricin _program_. A program so pathetic
that it hadn't actually produced any ricin.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Why is that? Maybe,
just maybe, because it's hard to track the source
of things like that?
Let's see - we invaded a nation based on speculation of
what they _might_ do in the future. And yet you infer that
we weren't incline to invade them if something actually
happened and we suspected they were behind it.
Your logic gaps are truly legendary.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
That's dishonesty.
I'm not the one repeatedly climbing down from previous
assertions in this thread--that Iraq's WMD programs
were "only on paper", that I'd called you a coward
or a traitor,
Excuse me?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
and so on.
Please go on.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
You have a fine history of reckless charges and
slime. "Goebells-esque?" "McCarthyite?" "idle
dismissal of life?" Yes, all from your keyboard.
I'm willing to write a lot of that off as mere
stupidity on your part. But not all of it. You're
a slimeball, and have a history of sliming other
people, including myself and Paul Haveman. Not
that I expect you to reflect on this at all--
that would require some introspection on your
part--but, who knows.
Looks like I finally hit the target.
When the names start getting thrown around
something must have sunk in.
I'm not letting go of this for the same reason that
I didn't let Odell get away with his irresponsible
assertions about AIDS.
Over ten thousand people died because of this
lie (and counting) and someone needs to admit it and
apologize. When the bombs started to fall it stopped
being a political game. This misdirection, moving the
goal post, and denying the obvious is a disrespect to
the soldiers who have died there, and the innocent
civilians who paid with their lives for this lie.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If he wanted to run a gigantic deception program
to convince the world he had WMD, well, it worked--catastrohpically
so for him.
a) why did he keep telling the world the truth? (ie that he
didn't have any)
Yes, it would have made a lot of sense for him to announce
that he had WMD, and therfore legitimize every international
action taken against him. Jesus.
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
If you'll recall, the inspectors couldn't find anything
and repeatedly asked the Bush Administration for their
information, which the Bush Administration refused to give!
Back then you justified Bush not giving the information
because it might "compromise" their intelligence. It turned
out that their information came from Iraqi exiles who weren't
even in the country.
Now it appears that they were a pack of lies too.
So why didn't Bush give up the information? It wouldn't be
because they knew them to be lies, would it?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Look, the evidence is clear that Saddam _thought_ he had
WMD.
I don't think so!
Maybe you've convinced yourself of this, but the evidence
does NOT show this.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Apparently there was so much red-on-red deception
going on that the truth was hidden from even him. Most
of the Republican Guard units knew they didn't have
WMD, but were convinced the units next to them did.
So RG = Saddam?
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Of course, it's much easier to just go off into the paranoid
style of politics and ascribe it all to a dark conspiracy.
At least for you.
Amazing. No amount of evidence is going to convince you
that a politician lied to you. Just isn't going to happen.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
4) But most importantly, I didn't back a war that killed
more than ten thousand innocent civilians based on a
pack of false assumptions and lies.
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184
44,000 lives saved so far.
Do I hear an echo from Vietnam? Oh, yes. We saved that village
by destroying it, yet again.
No moral responsibility for our actions here. Nope. Not a lick.
William Barwell
2004-02-01 21:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
How many liters of anthrax or ricin do terrorists need
to cause havoc in the US? Even test quantities are adequate.
And yet he didn't have any, therefore making your
point moot.
They certainly did have ricin.
Not by anything you've posted.
You mention a ricin _program_. Do you even bother
to read the articles you post?
Large stockpiles of ricin were found in Afghanistan
when American and Afghani forces attacked Taliban
caves and camp sites near the Pakistan border.

Yes, there was a massive ricin program. Just not in Iraq.

Cheerful Charlie
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
As I've mentioned before,
I find it interesting that ansar al Islam was also heavily
invested in ricin, and that ricin showed up in planned
attacks in Europe recently.
And you continued to spout the lie about Iraqi intelligence
meeting with 9/11 plotters months after the Czech intelligence
admitted they were wrong.
Your speculations no longer interest me.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
And finally, there is the fact that he had nothing to
gain and everything to lose by making a terrorist
strike against the US.
Quick--can you prove the ricin in the European plots
was or was not from the Iraqi state?
Yes. Becuase it was a ricin _program_. A program so pathetic
that it hadn't actually produced any ricin.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Why is that? Maybe,
just maybe, because it's hard to track the source
of things like that?
Let's see - we invaded a nation based on speculation of
what they _might_ do in the future. And yet you infer that
we weren't incline to invade them if something actually
happened and we suspected they were behind it.
Your logic gaps are truly legendary.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
That's dishonesty.
I'm not the one repeatedly climbing down from previous
assertions in this thread--that Iraq's WMD programs
were "only on paper", that I'd called you a coward
or a traitor,
Excuse me?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
and so on.
Please go on.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
You have a fine history of reckless charges and
slime. "Goebells-esque?" "McCarthyite?" "idle
dismissal of life?" Yes, all from your keyboard.
I'm willing to write a lot of that off as mere
stupidity on your part. But not all of it. You're
a slimeball, and have a history of sliming other
people, including myself and Paul Haveman. Not
that I expect you to reflect on this at all--
that would require some introspection on your
part--but, who knows.
Looks like I finally hit the target.
When the names start getting thrown around
something must have sunk in.
I'm not letting go of this for the same reason that
I didn't let Odell get away with his irresponsible
assertions about AIDS.
Over ten thousand people died because of this
lie (and counting) and someone needs to admit it and
apologize. When the bombs started to fall it stopped
being a political game. This misdirection, moving the
goal post, and denying the obvious is a disrespect to
the soldiers who have died there, and the innocent
civilians who paid with their lives for this lie.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If he wanted to run a gigantic deception program
to convince the world he had WMD, well, it worked--catastrohpically
so for him.
a) why did he keep telling the world the truth? (ie that he
didn't have any)
Yes, it would have made a lot of sense for him to announce
that he had WMD, and therfore legitimize every international
action taken against him. Jesus.
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
If you'll recall, the inspectors couldn't find anything
and repeatedly asked the Bush Administration for their
information, which the Bush Administration refused to give!
Back then you justified Bush not giving the information
because it might "compromise" their intelligence. It turned
out that their information came from Iraqi exiles who weren't
even in the country.
Now it appears that they were a pack of lies too.
So why didn't Bush give up the information? It wouldn't be
because they knew them to be lies, would it?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Look, the evidence is clear that Saddam _thought_ he had
WMD.
I don't think so!
Maybe you've convinced yourself of this, but the evidence
does NOT show this.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Apparently there was so much red-on-red deception
going on that the truth was hidden from even him. Most
of the Republican Guard units knew they didn't have
WMD, but were convinced the units next to them did.
So RG = Saddam?
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Of course, it's much easier to just go off into the paranoid
style of politics and ascribe it all to a dark conspiracy.
At least for you.
Amazing. No amount of evidence is going to convince you
that a politician lied to you. Just isn't going to happen.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
4) But most importantly, I didn't back a war that killed
more than ten thousand innocent civilians based on a
pack of false assumptions and lies.
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184
44,000 lives saved so far.
Do I hear an echo from Vietnam? Oh, yes. We saved that village
by destroying it, yet again.
No moral responsibility for our actions here. Nope. Not a lick.
--
"Socialist!" A name thrown at a moderate by a
reactionary who has run out of relevant argumemnts



Cheerful Charlie
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-02 01:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Not by anything you've posted.
You mention a ricin _program_. Do you even bother
to read the articles you post?
They had a program to _weaponize_ it. That implies
they'd produced test quantities so they could
conduct research on how to better produce and
distribute it.

====
'Regarding biological weapons, he said there was evidence that the
Iraqis continued research and development "right up until the end" to
improve their ability to produce ricin. "They were mostly researching
better methods for weaponization," Dr. Kay said. "They were
maintaining an infrastructure, but they didn't have large-scale
production under way."
====
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
As I've mentioned before,
I find it interesting that ansar al Islam was also heavily
invested in ricin, and that ricin showed up in planned
attacks in Europe recently.
And you continued to spout the lie about Iraqi intelligence
meeting with 9/11 plotters months after the Czech intelligence
admitted they were wrong.
Czech intelligence agents still say it's true. Other parts
of the Czech intelligence agencies and the political leaderhsip
say it's false. I place it in the indeterminate category.

So where _did_ the anthrax that was used after 9/11 come
from? After all, the point of this discussion was you
assertion that the source of a WMD attack would be known.
Yet we had anthrax in the US Capitol, and we still have
no idea of where it came from. Can you prove it was or
wasn't some anthrax left over from gulf war I? It's only
a few teaspoons worth of the stuff.
Post by midtowng
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
That's false, too. The UN demanded unfettered access to
Iraqi scientists. They didn't get it, not surprisingly,
since any scientist who talked to the UN would have
his family killed. Kay documented an extensive program
to deceive UN inspectors and hide programs.
Post by midtowng
So why didn't Bush give up the information? It wouldn't be
because they knew them to be lies, would it?
Yeah, yeah--every single western intelligence agency
was in on the plot.

In fact, I don't think intelligence agencies have
_ever_ given accurate assesments of WMD programs
in a timely way. It seems to be fundamentally beyond
their ability. During the Cold War they missed Soviet anthrax
WMD programs, despite an anthrax epidemic in a
Soviet city caused by a leak from an anthrax
plant. They severely underestimated the Iraqi
nuclear program before Gulf War I. They underestimated
the Libyan program. And they repeatedly underestimated
the North Korean program. They were caught flat-footed
by the Indian bomb. And the South African bomb. They
have only recently come to understand the connections
between the Pakistani, North Korean, and Libyan programs,
and the extent to which they exchange sophisticated
equipment outside the reach of any sanctions program.

Were those all "lies", too? Maybe they were put forward
by the Illuminati in their effort to destroy America?
Where's the apology for _that_?

Hey, it makes about as much sense as some neo-con plot
organized by Dick Cheney and PNAC.

In the meantime, nobody is being fed into shredders
in Iraq, and Uday and Qusay are still dead.
William Barwell
2004-02-02 02:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Not by anything you've posted.
You mention a ricin _program_. Do you even bother
to read the articles you post?
They had a program to _weaponize_ it. That implies
they'd produced test quantities so they could
conduct research on how to better produce and
distribute it.
So some jerk had a pie-in-the-sky plan that was on paper and wasn't going
anywhere, and that is an inadequate claim to go to war after the claims of
vast amouts of VX gas and other weapons didn't pan out?

No, this is grasping straws, a fig leaf of rationalization to cover basic
large scale errors of judgment on the part of the lying and deeply
incompetent Bush adminstration.

Yes, vast amounts of weaponry ready to go at 45 minutes notice.
Bush and crew would say ANYTHING no matter how unlikely.
It was all lies.

Now we are looking at blowing crumbs up BIG, BIG, BIG
to rationalize all this failure away.


What would you far right bozo's be doing if it was Clinton
that did this? America would be 4 inches deep in foam and slobber.

We all know it too.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
====
'Regarding biological weapons, he said there was evidence that the
Iraqis continued research and development "right up until the end" to
improve their ability to produce ricin. "They were mostly researching
better methods for weaponization," Dr. Kay said. "They were
maintaining an infrastructure, but they didn't have large-scale
production under way."
====
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
As I've mentioned before,
I find it interesting that ansar al Islam was also heavily
invested in ricin, and that ricin showed up in planned
attacks in Europe recently.
And you continued to spout the lie about Iraqi intelligence
meeting with 9/11 plotters months after the Czech intelligence
admitted they were wrong.
Czech intelligence agents still say it's true. Other parts
of the Czech intelligence agencies and the political leaderhsip
say it's false. I place it in the indeterminate category.
So where _did_ the anthrax that was used after 9/11 come
from? After all, the point of this discussion was you
assertion that the source of a WMD attack would be known.
Yet we had anthrax in the US Capitol, and we still have
no idea of where it came from. Can you prove it was or
wasn't some anthrax left over from gulf war I? It's only
a few teaspoons worth of the stuff.
Post by midtowng
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
That's false, too. The UN demanded unfettered access to
Iraqi scientists. They didn't get it, not surprisingly,
since any scientist who talked to the UN would have
his family killed. Kay documented an extensive program
to deceive UN inspectors and hide programs.
Post by midtowng
So why didn't Bush give up the information? It wouldn't be
because they knew them to be lies, would it?
Yeah, yeah--every single western intelligence agency
was in on the plot.
In fact, I don't think intelligence agencies have
_ever_ given accurate assesments of WMD programs
in a timely way. It seems to be fundamentally beyond
their ability. During the Cold War they missed Soviet anthrax
WMD programs, despite an anthrax epidemic in a
Soviet city caused by a leak from an anthrax
plant. They severely underestimated the Iraqi
nuclear program before Gulf War I. They underestimated
the Libyan program. And they repeatedly underestimated
the North Korean program. They were caught flat-footed
by the Indian bomb. And the South African bomb. They
have only recently come to understand the connections
between the Pakistani, North Korean, and Libyan programs,
and the extent to which they exchange sophisticated
equipment outside the reach of any sanctions program.
Were those all "lies", too? Maybe they were put forward
by the Illuminati in their effort to destroy America?
Where's the apology for _that_?
Hey, it makes about as much sense as some neo-con plot
organized by Dick Cheney and PNAC.
In the meantime, nobody is being fed into shredders
in Iraq, and Uday and Qusay are still dead.
--
"Socialist!" A name thrown at a moderate by a
reactionary who has run out of relevant argumemnts



Cheerful Charlie
midtowng
2004-02-02 23:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Not by anything you've posted.
You mention a ricin _program_. Do you even bother
to read the articles you post?
They had a program to _weaponize_ it. That implies
they'd produced test quantities so they could
conduct research on how to better produce and
distribute it.
No. It only implies that they _intended_ to produce
test quanities.
They had a "nuclear program" too, but that didn't mean
they had a test nuclear bomb. It didn't even mean they had
the components necessary.

Come on Ernst. This one is easy.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
As I've mentioned before,
I find it interesting that ansar al Islam was also heavily
invested in ricin, and that ricin showed up in planned
attacks in Europe recently.
And you continued to spout the lie about Iraqi intelligence
meeting with 9/11 plotters months after the Czech intelligence
admitted they were wrong.
Czech intelligence agents still say it's true. Other parts
of the Czech intelligence agencies and the political leaderhsip
say it's false. I place it in the indeterminate category.
Yes, you would do that. Even after I've REPEATEDLY shown
you that the Czech intelligence agents recanted this story.
I'm going to show you yet again:
http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2002/msg00601.html

United Press International
October 20, 2002 Sunday 10:06 AM Eastern Time
HEADLINE: Czechs retract terror link
BYLINE: By MARTIN WALKER
DATELINE: PRAGUE, Czech Republic, Oct. 20 (UPI)

Czech intelligence officials have knocked down one of the few clear
links
between al Qaida terrorists and the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein,
UPI has
learned.
Senior Czech intelligence officials have told their American
counterparts
that they now have "no confidence" in their earlier report of direct
meetings in Prague between Mohammed Atta, leader of the Sept. 11
hijackers
and an Iraqi diplomat stationed in Prague who has since been expelled
for
"activities inconsistent with his diplomatic status."
"Quite simply, we think the source for this story may have
invented the
meeting that he reported. We can find no corroborative evidence for
the
meeting and the source has real credibility problems " a high-ranking
source close to Czech intelligence told UPI Sunday.
[...]
The nearest to a smoking gun connecting Iraq to al Qaida, the
Czech report
was taken very seriously in Washington, in the face of growing
skepticism
at the Central Intelligence Agency.
But other influential figures in Washington, including former CIA
Director
James Woolsey and former Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Perle
pursued their own inquiries using their own sources, and have now also
been
told by high-ranking Czech sources that they no longer stand by the
initial
report. Perle, in Prague this weekend for a meeting of the Trilateral
Commission, was told in person Sunday that the BIS now doubts that any
such
meeting between Atta and al-Ani in fact took place.
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
So where _did_ the anthrax that was used after 9/11 come
from?
Uh, this is well known. It came from an American source.
This has been in all the newspapers. Did you miss it?
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Apr/04112003/nation_w/47038.asp

U.S. Army scientists have reproduced the anthrax powder used in the
2001 mail attacks and concluded that it was made using simple methods,
inexpensive equipment and limited expertise, according to government
sources familiar with the work.
"It tends to support the idea that the anthrax came from a
domestic source and probably not a state program," said David
Siegrist, a bioterrorism expert at the Potomac Institute for Policy
Studies. "It shows you can have a fairly sophisticated product with
fairly rudimentary methods."
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
After all, the point of this discussion was you
assertion that the source of a WMD attack would be known.
Yet we had anthrax in the US Capitol, and we still have
no idea of where it came from.
You need to follow the news a little closer.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
That's false, too. The UN demanded unfettered access to
Iraqi scientists. They didn't get it, not surprisingly,
since any scientist who talked to the UN would have
his family killed. Kay documented an extensive program
to deceive UN inspectors and hide programs.
I know for a fact that we interviewed Iraqi scientists before the
war.

Another thing occured to me yesterday: we have WMD go missing in
this country every year. And this is in a first-world country.
That Iraq, a third-world country that has underwent massive amounts
of bombings over a 12 year period, couldn't account for everything
should have been no surprise. Unless you hold them to much
higher standards than you do America.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
So why didn't Bush give up the information? It wouldn't be
because they knew them to be lies, would it?
Yeah, yeah--every single western intelligence agency
was in on the plot.
Nice taking out of context there.
I was talking about Bush not giving the supposed "proof" of Iraqi WMD
to the Blix team.
And then what do you know? There turned out to not be any
WMD. You are trying to tell me that this is a coincidence.
Amazing how your faith in politicians returned the moment that
a Republican was elected.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
In fact, I don't think intelligence agencies have
_ever_ given accurate assesments of WMD programs
in a timely way. It seems to be fundamentally beyond
their ability. During the Cold War they missed Soviet anthrax
WMD programs, despite an anthrax epidemic in a
Soviet city caused by a leak from an anthrax
plant. They severely underestimated the Iraqi
nuclear program before Gulf War I. They underestimated
the Libyan program. And they repeatedly underestimated
the North Korean program. They were caught flat-footed
by the Indian bomb. And the South African bomb. They
have only recently come to understand the connections
between the Pakistani, North Korean, and Libyan programs,
and the extent to which they exchange sophisticated
equipment outside the reach of any sanctions program.
Were those all "lies", too? Maybe they were put forward
by the Illuminati in their effort to destroy America?
Where's the apology for _that_?
You will find one significant difference between all of
those and the recent Iraqi occupation - we didn't go to war
and kill a lot of people.
Therefore there is nothing to apologize about.
This is kind of basic logic stuff Ernst. You aren't even
putting up a decent fight here.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Hey, it makes about as much sense as some neo-con plot
organized by Dick Cheney and PNAC.
The fact that you still believe in the "Prague connection"
for 9/11, despite repeatedly told otherwise, discredits your
opinion about plots.
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-03 02:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Czech intelligence agents still say it's true. Other parts
of the Czech intelligence agencies and the political leaderhsip
say it's false. I place it in the indeterminate category.
Yes, you would do that. Even after I've REPEATEDLY shown
you that the Czech intelligence agents recanted this story.
http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2002/msg00601.html
United Press International
October 20, 2002 Sunday 10:06 AM Eastern Time
Sigh. See
http://slate.msn.com/id/2091354

Which is dated later than the above article.

====
This month, I went to Prague to meet with Czech officials who had
directly handled the pre-9/11 expulsion of a senior Iraqi diplomat, a
case that would became known as the Prague Connection.
....
On my trip, I spoke to Jan Kavan, who in 2001 was foreign minister and
coordinator of intelligence.
...
All these reports attributed to the FBI were, as it turns out,
erroneous. There were no car rental records in Virginia, Florida, or
anywhere else in April 2001 for Mohamed Atta, since he had not yet
obtained his Florida license. His international license was at his
father's home in Cairo, Egypt (where his roommate Marwan al-Shehhi
picked it up in late April). Nor were there other records in the hands
of the FBI that put Atta in the United States at the time. Director of
Central Intelligence George Tenet testified to the Senate Select
Committee on Intelligence in June 2002, "It is possible that Atta
traveled under an unknown alias" to "meet with an Iraqi intelligence
officer in Prague."
...
Czech intelligence services could not solve this puzzle without access
to crucial information about Atta's movements in the United States,
Germany, and other countries in which the plot unfolded, but it soon
became clear that such cooperation would not be forthcoming. Even after
al-Ani was taken prisoner by U.S. forces in Iraq in July 2003 and
presumably questioned about Atta, no report was furnished to the Czech
side of the investigation. "It was anything but a two-way street," a top
Czech government official overseeing the case explained. "The FBI wanted
complete control. The FBI agents provided us with nothing from their
side of the investigation."

Without those missing pieces—including cell phone logs, credit card
charges, and interrogation records in the FBI's possession—the jigsaw
puzzle remains incomplete.
====

From the congressional report on 9/11:
http://new.globalfreepress.com/911/fullreport/
====
DCI Tenet testified that "Atta may also have traveled outside of the
U.S. in early April 2001 to meet an Iraqi intelligence officer, although
we are still working to [page 144] corroborate this." Atta may have
traveled under an unknown alias: the CIA has been unable to establish
that he left the United States or entered Europe in April under his true
name or any known alias.
====

Page 144 is classified "top secret" and is not available for viewing.
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
So where _did_ the anthrax that was used after 9/11 come
from?
Uh, this is well known. It came from an American source.
This has been in all the newspapers. Did you miss it?
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Apr/04112003/nation_w/47038.asp
It doesn't say what you think it says:

====
But Richard Spertzel, a biowarfare expert and former United Nations
weapons inspector in Iraq, said he has heard that the Dugway research
failed to match exactly the purity and small particle size of the mailed
anthrax. Though he has no involvement in the case, he believes the FBI
would be wrong to rule out Iraq or other states as the source of the
deadly powder.
====

The FBI's case against the scientist whose name has been floating
around is less than compelling, and there have been a number of
high level flops--such as the draining of the Maryland pond
to look for anthrax evidence. The public evidence is all over
the map. Some scientists say it was treated with sophisticated
surficants; others say not.

Nor does "rudimentary techniques" imply "domestic".

If you had been presented with equivalent evidence about
Iraqi WMD, you'd be screaming that it was "unproven",
"speculative", etc.

The fact remains: there has been
no conclusive proof of where the anthrax came from,
or who made it, or who distributed it. Who are we
retaliating against? Who's been arrested? Who are
we holding accountable?
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
That's false, too. The UN demanded unfettered access to
Iraqi scientists. They didn't get it, not surprisingly,
since any scientist who talked to the UN would have
his family killed. Kay documented an extensive program
to deceive UN inspectors and hide programs.
I know for a fact that we interviewed Iraqi scientists before the
war.
David Kay:
====
# Lots of WMD related equipment that Iraq had concealed from the United
Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.
# A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi
Intelligence Service that contained equipment suitable for the
production of chemical and biological weapons.
====

The Iraqis also prohibited out-of-country interviews with
scientists.
midtowng
2004-02-03 07:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Czech intelligence agents still say it's true. Other parts
of the Czech intelligence agencies and the political leaderhsip
say it's false. I place it in the indeterminate category.
Yes, you would do that. Even after I've REPEATEDLY shown
you that the Czech intelligence agents recanted this story.
http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2002/msg00601.html
United Press International
October 20, 2002 Sunday 10:06 AM Eastern Time
Sigh. See
http://slate.msn.com/id/2091354
Which is dated later than the above article.
[...]
You either didn't read the article closely, or you were
assuming that I wouldn't.
Because despite all the breathy innuendos this right-wing
rag used, there were two things missing from it:
1) Any reference at all that the Czech Intelligence had done
anything other than recant this story. Or even that there was
some disagreement in the Czech Intelligence.
2) That any new evidence had come up since my article pointing
towards Iraqi involvement.

What this article does is a great deal of handwaving
and nothing else.

http://www.iht.com/articles/74391.html

President Vaclav Havel has quietly told the White House that he has
concluded that there is no evidence to confirm earlier reports that
Mohamed Atta, the suspected leader in the Sept. 11 attacks, met with
an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague just months before the attacks
on New York and Washington, according to Czech officials.
Havel discreetly called Washington to tell officials in the
administration that a report from the Czech domestic intelligence
agency that Atta had met with an Iraqi intelligence officer, Ahmad
Khalil Ibrahim Samir Ani, in Prague in April 2001 could not be
substantiated.[...]


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70610F73E580C708DDDAB0994DB404482

A former Iraqi intelligence officer who was said to have met with the
suspected leader of the Sept. 11 attacks has told American
interrogators the meeting never happened, according to United States
officials familiar with classified intelligence reports on the ...
Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, the former intelligence officer,...
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
So where _did_ the anthrax that was used after 9/11 come
from?
Uh, this is well known. It came from an American source.
This has been in all the newspapers. Did you miss it?
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Apr/04112003/nation_w/47038.asp
Then how about this:
http://english.pravda.ru/usa/2001/10/28/19385.html

The FBI and CIA investigators declare that it is highly probable that
the source of the recent anthrax attacks resides within the USA.
The Washington Post quotes government sources who declare that
everything points towards a ?domestic source¦ and that there is no
evidence to indicate that the operation has any influence from abroad.
[...]

And this:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1222-02.htm

Shortly after the first anthrax victim died in October, the Bush
administration began an intense effort to explore any possible link
between Iraq and the attacks and continued to do so even after
scientists determined that the lethal germ was an American strain,
scientists and government officials said.
But they said that largely secret work had found no evidence to
back up the initial suspicions, which is one reason administration
officials have said recently that the source of the anthrax was most
likely domestic.
For months, intelligence agencies searched for Iraqi
fingerprints and scientists investigated whether Baghdad had somehow
obtained the so-called Ames strain of anthrax. Scientists also
repeatedly analyzed the powder from the anthrax-laced envelopes for
signs of chemical additives that would point to Iraq.
"We looked for any shred of evidence that would bear on this, or
any foreign source," a senior intelligence official said of an Iraq
connection. "It's just not there."
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
====
But Richard Spertzel, a biowarfare expert and former United Nations
weapons inspector in Iraq, said he has heard that the Dugway research
failed to match exactly the purity and small particle size of the mailed
anthrax. Though he has no involvement in the case, he believes the FBI
would be wrong to rule out Iraq or other states as the source of the
deadly powder.
====
The FBI's case against the scientist whose name has been floating
around is less than compelling, and there have been a number of
high level flops--such as the draining of the Maryland pond
to look for anthrax evidence. The public evidence is all over
the map. Some scientists say it was treated with sophisticated
surficants; others say not.
Nor does "rudimentary techniques" imply "domestic".
If you had been presented with equivalent evidence about
Iraqi WMD, you'd be screaming that it was "unproven",
"speculative", etc.
Yes, but I would still suspect domestic before Iraq because
they looked for Iraq involvement and there simply was none.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The fact remains: there has been
no conclusive proof of where the anthrax came from,
or who made it, or who distributed it. Who are we
retaliating against? Who's been arrested? Who are
we holding accountable?
They don't know. But one thing is for certain - there is
no link between it and Iraq.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
That's false, too. The UN demanded unfettered access to
Iraqi scientists. They didn't get it, not surprisingly,
since any scientist who talked to the UN would have
his family killed.
For telling them what? That WMD didn't exist?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Kay documented an extensive program
to deceive UN inspectors and hide programs.
I know for a fact that we interviewed Iraqi scientists before the
war.
====
# Lots of WMD related equipment that Iraq had concealed from the United
Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.
# A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi
Intelligence Service that contained equipment suitable for the
production of chemical and biological weapons.
====
The Iraqis also prohibited out-of-country interviews with
scientists.
That's different from not being able to interview them.
There also isn't anything in the Gulf War I peace accords that
called that necessary.
Now what's interesting is that we've not only interviewed all these
scientists since then, we even had several of them under arrest
for weeks at a time, trying to get them to tell us something about
WMD. They wouldn't crack. Funny that.
wbarwell
2004-02-04 13:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Czech intelligence agents still say it's true. Other parts
of the Czech intelligence agencies and the political leaderhsip
say it's false. I place it in the indeterminate category.
Yes, you would do that. Even after I've REPEATEDLY shown
you that the Czech intelligence agents recanted this story.
http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2002/msg00601.html
United Press International
October 20, 2002 Sunday 10:06 AM Eastern Time
Sigh. See
http://slate.msn.com/id/2091354
Which is dated later than the above article.
[...]
You either didn't read the article closely, or you were
assuming that I wouldn't.
Because despite all the breathy innuendos this right-wing
1) Any reference at all that the Czech Intelligence had done
anything other than recant this story. Or even that there was
some disagreement in the Czech Intelligence.
2) That any new evidence had come up since my article pointing
towards Iraqi involvement.
This is the sort of thinking Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld
have been using to justify the Iraq war. All true facts are ignored.
Innuendo, surmise, and small possibilities announced as sureties
are the rule.

Cheerful Charlie
Post by midtowng
What this article does is a great deal of handwaving
and nothing else.
http://www.iht.com/articles/74391.html
President Vaclav Havel has quietly told the White House that he has
concluded that there is no evidence to confirm earlier reports that
Mohamed Atta, the suspected leader in the Sept. 11 attacks, met with
an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague just months before the attacks
on New York and Washington, according to Czech officials.
Havel discreetly called Washington to tell officials in the
administration that a report from the Czech domestic intelligence
agency that Atta had met with an Iraqi intelligence officer, Ahmad
Khalil Ibrahim Samir Ani, in Prague in April 2001 could not be
substantiated.[...]
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70610F73E580C708DDDAB0994DB404482
Post by midtowng
A former Iraqi intelligence officer who was said to have met with the
suspected leader of the Sept. 11 attacks has told American
interrogators the meeting never happened, according to United States
officials familiar with classified intelligence reports on the ...
Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, the former intelligence officer,...
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
So where _did_ the anthrax that was used after 9/11 come
from?
Uh, this is well known. It came from an American source.
This has been in all the newspapers. Did you miss it?
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Apr/04112003/nation_w/47038.asp
http://english.pravda.ru/usa/2001/10/28/19385.html
The FBI and CIA investigators declare that it is highly probable that
the source of the recent anthrax attacks resides within the USA.
The Washington Post quotes government sources who declare that
everything points towards a ?domestic source� and that there is no
evidence to indicate that the operation has any influence from abroad.
[...]
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1222-02.htm
Shortly after the first anthrax victim died in October, the Bush
administration began an intense effort to explore any possible link
between Iraq and the attacks and continued to do so even after
scientists determined that the lethal germ was an American strain,
scientists and government officials said.
But they said that largely secret work had found no evidence to
back up the initial suspicions, which is one reason administration
officials have said recently that the source of the anthrax was most
likely domestic.
For months, intelligence agencies searched for Iraqi
fingerprints and scientists investigated whether Baghdad had somehow
obtained the so-called Ames strain of anthrax. Scientists also
repeatedly analyzed the powder from the anthrax-laced envelopes for
signs of chemical additives that would point to Iraq.
"We looked for any shred of evidence that would bear on this, or
any foreign source," a senior intelligence official said of an Iraq
connection. "It's just not there."
[...]
Post by Ernst Blofeld
====
But Richard Spertzel, a biowarfare expert and former United Nations
weapons inspector in Iraq, said he has heard that the Dugway research
failed to match exactly the purity and small particle size of the mailed
anthrax. Though he has no involvement in the case, he believes the FBI
would be wrong to rule out Iraq or other states as the source of the
deadly powder.
====
The FBI's case against the scientist whose name has been floating
around is less than compelling, and there have been a number of
high level flops--such as the draining of the Maryland pond
to look for anthrax evidence. The public evidence is all over
the map. Some scientists say it was treated with sophisticated
surficants; others say not.
Nor does "rudimentary techniques" imply "domestic".
If you had been presented with equivalent evidence about
Iraqi WMD, you'd be screaming that it was "unproven",
"speculative", etc.
Yes, but I would still suspect domestic before Iraq because
they looked for Iraq involvement and there simply was none.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
The fact remains: there has been
no conclusive proof of where the anthrax came from,
or who made it, or who distributed it. Who are we
retaliating against? Who's been arrested? Who are
we holding accountable?
They don't know. But one thing is for certain - there is
no link between it and Iraq.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I noticed you deleted point b) That he let inspectors back
into the country and have free access.
That's false, too. The UN demanded unfettered access to
Iraqi scientists. They didn't get it, not surprisingly,
since any scientist who talked to the UN would have
his family killed.
For telling them what? That WMD didn't exist?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Kay documented an extensive program
to deceive UN inspectors and hide programs.
I know for a fact that we interviewed Iraqi scientists before the
war.
====
# Lots of WMD related equipment that Iraq had concealed from the United
Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.
# A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi
Intelligence Service that contained equipment suitable for the
production of chemical and biological weapons.
====
The Iraqis also prohibited out-of-country interviews with
scientists.
That's different from not being able to interview them.
There also isn't anything in the Gulf War I peace accords that
called that necessary.
Now what's interesting is that we've not only interviewed all these
scientists since then, we even had several of them under arrest
for weeks at a time, trying to get them to tell us something about
WMD. They wouldn't crack. Funny that.
--
Losers to the right of me, losers to the left of me
and the air is filled with kooks.

Cheerful Charlie
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-04 01:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
http://slate.msn.com/id/2091354
Because despite all the breathy innuendos this right-wing
rag used,
Slate is a "right-wing rag?"
Post by midtowng
They don't know. But one thing is for certain - there is
no link between it and Iraq.
Lack of evidence pointing to Iraq is not proof that Iraq
(or some other nation) didn't do it. We don't know who
did it. And we're unlikely to know who did it if someone
else does the same thing.
chris.holt
2004-02-01 20:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
4) But most importantly, I didn't back a war that killed
more than ten thousand innocent civilians based on a pack of
false assumptions and lies.
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184
44,000 lives saved so far.
That is a dishonest use of statistics; I had thought you were
brighter than that.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-02 03:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184
44,000 lives saved so far.
That is a dishonest use of statistics;
Is it? How many people was Saddam feeding into
shredders per year? As I recall you were
adamant that sanctions were killing hundreds
of thousands. Don't you think the end of
sanctions was a worthy goal?

Or were you lying about hundreds of thousands
of people being killed?
midtowng
2004-02-02 17:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184
44,000 lives saved so far.
That is a dishonest use of statistics;
Is it?
It's very easy to show this.
The vast bulk of "Saddam's victims" are from the Iran-Iraq
war. You include both Iranian and Iraqian casualties, both
military and civilians. You've asserted in the past that
this was because Saddam started it.

Well, in that case, by your logic "Bush's victims"
include both the 520+ American troops, 10,000+ Iraqi civilians,
and unknown thousands or tens of thousands of Iraqi troops.

Will you now agree with the statement that Bush has
"tens of thousands of victims because he stated this war"?

No? Then you aren't being consistent and both your
numbers and conclusions are faulty.

Of course there are other reasons to conclude your assertion
is faulty, but accounts for the bulk of it.
chris.holt
2004-02-03 17:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by chris.holt
Post by Ernst Blofeld
http://198.30.156.67/000184.php#000184
44,000 lives saved so far.
That is a dishonest use of statistics;
Is it?
Yes. Taking averages that include mass murders from
15 years ago and saying that those averages apply now
is lying with statistics.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
How many people was Saddam feeding into
shredders per year?
I don't know; do you? And why try to appeal to
emotions by talking about shredders? The people
being killed and raped right now would probably
fail to see that the distinction was that important.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
As I recall you were
adamant that sanctions were killing hundreds
of thousands.
So they did.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Don't you think the end of
sanctions was a worthy goal?
Certainly. But frying pans into fires doesn't seem
the best way of solving the problem.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Or were you lying about hundreds of thousands
of people being killed?
Oh please.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
Paul Havemann
2004-02-03 21:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Even if my predictions were wrong, which they weren't,
following my advice wouldn't have cost anyone their lives.
Why don't you tell it to the Iraqis?

http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/

Oh, right, you don't actually want to talk to any Iraqis.
Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-31 22:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
with this guy:

zeyad_w at hotmail dot com

Who runs this blog:

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
zepp
2004-01-31 23:11:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:04:03 GMT, Ernst Blofeld
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
Minus the 16,000 that Putsch murdered.



-
"The Seven Deadly Sins:
Wealth without work
Pleasure without conscience
Knowledge without character
Commerce without morality
Science without humanity
Worship without sacrifice
Politics without principle."
- Mahatma Gandhi

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
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midtowng
2004-02-01 03:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by zepp
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:04:03 GMT, Ernst Blofeld
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead.
[...]
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
Minus the 16,000 that Putsch murdered.
Mark Twain defined dogmatic as "wrong at the top of your voice."

That's what the pro-war crowd seems to be.
They sold the war on Saddam being a threat. The peace movement
crowd didn't believe it, but the pro-war crowd didn't care.
They had their war.
Now its been proven that Saddam wasn't a threat. Does the
pro-war crowd fess up?
Nope. They scream louder. It was
the CIA's fault, despite the fact that the CIA was very
vocal before the war in saying that Saddam wasn't a threat.
It was France and Germany's fault for not supporting the
pro-war crowd, not that this makes any sense. It was
Saddam's fault for letting us believe that he actually
had WMD, ignoring that he told the world repeatedly
that he didn't. It was his fault. It was their fault.

All that they are really saying is:
IT WAS SOMEONE'S ELSE'S FAULT!

These are the same guys who were lecturing us on
"personal responsibility" only a few years ago.
Of course this is as out of place as their
commitment to civil rights and smaller government,
but that's another story...or is it?
MikeSoja
2004-02-01 03:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by zepp
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:04:03 GMT, Ernst Blofeld
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
Minus the 16,000 that Putsch murdered.
That's about the same number that 'socialism' murdered in last summer's heat
wave in France. In one month.

Mike Soja
midtowng
2004-02-01 07:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by MikeSoja
Post by zepp
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:04:03 GMT, Ernst Blofeld
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
Minus the 16,000 that Putsch murdered.
That's about the same number that 'socialism' murdered in last summer's heat
wave in France. In one month.
It isn't every day that someone makes a bold statement AND
discredits themselves in the same breath.
MikeSoja
2004-02-01 15:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by MikeSoja
Post by zepp
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:04:03 GMT, Ernst Blofeld
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
Minus the 16,000 that Putsch murdered.
That's about the same number that 'socialism' murdered in last summer's heat
wave in France. In one month.
It isn't every day that someone makes a bold statement AND
discredits themselves in the same breath.
It is when it's Brian "Fat Wah Wah" Jamieson.

Mike Soja
zepp
2004-02-01 16:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by MikeSoja
Post by zepp
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:04:03 GMT, Ernst Blofeld
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation, go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
Minus the 16,000 that Putsch murdered.
That's about the same number that 'socialism' murdered in last summer's heat
wave in France. In one month.
It isn't every day that someone makes a bold statement AND
discredits themselves in the same breath.
Actually, with Sistah Soja, it IS every day.

The boy's got a talent.

-
"The Seven Deadly Sins:
Wealth without work
Pleasure without conscience
Knowledge without character
Commerce without morality
Science without humanity
Worship without sacrifice
Politics without principle."
- Mahatma Gandhi

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
midtowng
2004-02-01 02:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
I ask again - where the apology?
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Post by Ernst Blofeld
go ahead. Just
to make it non-theoretical, you can start
Since you have decided to play both dumb and theatrical,
I'll play along.
So you don't feel obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh? No matter,
many Americans like to be lied to. You seem to be one
of them.
How about apologizing to the over 10,000 Iraqi
civilians killed by our bombs? Oops! Too late for that.
How about the 520+ American soldiers killed in
this occupation? Oops! Too late for that too.

But if it makes you feel any better, you can still
apologize to the hundreds of American soldiers yet to
be murdered for the unnecessary war that you backed.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
Go right ahead. Only another 20 million to
go after that.
And to make this non-theoretical, how about starting
with these children:
http://www.iraqvictims.com/en_home.asp
When you are done there, there's plenty more happening
every day.
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-01 08:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
his opinion on it:

zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com

What's the matter? Afraid that actually speaking
to someone who was liberated by American
and British forces, and as a result doesn't
have to face being fed into a shredder or
have his family killed, would puncture your
inflated sense of moral worth? That it wouldn't
be quite as easy to make dumb and offensive
comparisions between a savage dictatorship
and a temporary occupation?

Idle dismissal of life, indeed.
Post by midtowng
So you don't feel obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh?
No--"Lying" means knowingly forwarding false information,
and that's not what happened. Unless you think
every intelligence agency on the planet was in on
the conspiracy, along with Saddam Hussein, who
_himself_ was convined he had WMD programs.

In the final analysis, the nation of 20 million people
was freed from one of the most savage dictatorships
on the planet. And that counts for a lot.
midtowng
2004-02-01 19:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
What's the matter? Afraid that actually speaking
to someone who was liberated by American
and British forces, and as a result doesn't
have to face being fed into a shredder or
have his family killed, would puncture your
inflated sense of moral worth? That it wouldn't
be quite as easy to make dumb and offensive
comparisions between a savage dictatorship
and a temporary occupation?
Idle dismissal of life, indeed.
You got me there, because tens of thousands of the people
you need to apologize to are dead because of the lies you backed.
Here's some more names you should apologize to:
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/opinion/editoria2004/edit013004_2004.shtmL

On election day, the Department of Defense released the names of five
more America's soldiers killed in Iraq. Three of them died on
Saturday, a day the presidential candidates spent wooing voters and
defending their votes and statements for and against the war.

One of dead, Sgt. Randy Rosenberg, 23, was from Berlin. Rosenberg
played hockey, graduated from Berlin High School in 1998 and married
Misty, a Goffstown girl, just 18 months ago. He wrote regular letters
from Iraq to his grandfather, William Gemitti, a Korean war veteran
and the hunting and fishing companion of Rosenberg's youth.

In the Humvee with Rosenberg when the bomb went off along a road near
Khalidiyah, a city 60 miles west of Baghdad, was Specialist William
Sturges of Spring City, Pa. Sturges, whose wife was serving as a medic
in a combat hospital in Iraq, was 24. The couple have a 16-month-old
son. Sturges also had a 4-year-old son from an earlier relationship.
The modern Army allows both parents to serve overseas if it approves
their child care plans.

Killed with Rosenberg and Sturges was 22-year-old Jason Chappell of
Hemet, Calif. All three were part of the "All American" Task Force of
the 9th Calvary. Chappell, who had a 3.8 grade-point average, was a
star member of his high school's championship academic decathlon team.
He joined the Army, a local newspaper said, because he had not decided
what to do after high school.

Two more American soldiers were killed in a separate bombing that
Saturday, the day Sen. John Kerry skated with Bruins hockey stars in
Manchester, Wesley Clark held a rally with Ted Danson, John Edwards
met with voters at a Laconia soda shop and Howard Dean held a town
meeting on the Seacoast.

One was Sgt. Keith Smette, 25, of Makoti, N.D., a town of 140 people
near Fargo, where his parents run the local grain elevator. Like
Rosenberg, Smette was an athletic kid. He liked to hunt, fish and play
baseball. He left North Dakota State University with one year to go to
volunteer for duty in Iraq.

Sgt. Ken Hendrickson was the fifth man killed that day. The
41-year-old former school custodian left for Iraq four days after his
wedding. His teenage son told the paper in Hendrickson's hometown,
Bismarck, N.D., that his father loved to do "animated voices as he
read his favorite books" - The Stinky Cheese Man and The Foot Book by
Dr. Zeuss. From Iraq he sent his family photographs of the ground to
prove that it was not sand but "powdered dirt."

As of Wednesday, 519 members of the armed forces had died since the
invasion of Iraq.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
So you don't feel obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh?
No--"Lying" means knowingly forwarding false information,
and that's not what happened. Unless you think
every intelligence agency on the planet was in on
the conspiracy, along with Saddam Hussein, who
_himself_ was convined he had WMD programs.
Every intelligence agency on the planet considered Saddam
a non-threat. But Every intelligence agency on the planet
considered Saddam's links to terrorists as unlikely.
Bush lied about those things and you repeated those lies.
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_feb1.html

If Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMD), as it long insisted,
we must draw one of two conclusions.
Either President George Bush, and secretaries Colin Powell and
Donald Rumsfeld, lied about the global threat they claimed Iraq posed,
and deceived Congress and the American people. Or, they were grossly
misinformed by their intelligence experts and must be judged fools of
the first order.
If Bush and his team of chest-thumping, self-proclaimed national
security experts were really misinformed about Iraq's weapons and
capabilities, then they started a war by mistake - and presided over
the two biggest national security fiascos since Pearl Harbor: the 9/11
attacks and the invasion of Iraq.
It turns out President Saddam Hussein, whom Bush repeatedly
branded a "liar," was in fact telling the truth all along when he said
all of Iraq's old weapons systems had been destroyed. It was Bush and
British PM Tony Blair who weren't telling the truth.
Saddam should hire attorney Johnny Cochrane and sue the U.S. and
Britain for all they're worth.
So, take your pick.
The Iraq war either was the Mother of All Lies, or the Mother of
All Fiascos.
[...]


http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-livit013651247feb01,0,3575764.column

DeLay, then-House Republican whip, said that unless President Clinton
was impeached for lying, somewhere someday a mother would "lose
custody of her baby in court because a father lies," and professors
would sell good grades for cash, and brave men would die due to lies
in the military, and businesses would collapse from "a cancer" of
lying throughout the land. You can look this up in the congressional
record. DeLay may even have had a point.
But I bring this up not to remind you of that sad episode in the
country's moral life, and in the marriage of the Clintons. I mention
it only to ask - honestly, because I am as curious as any other
increasingly anti-war American with grave doubts about the
truthfulness of my government in its pursuit of foreign (and domestic)
policies - why there was no earthquake in Washington this week when it
emerged that President George W. Bush may have launched an entire war
on the basis of a lie?
There was no earthquake, no Bible thumping, no Pat Robertson or
Tom DeLay. There were some high-end campaign speeches by the
Democrats. The president went to New Hampshire not to campaign for
president. (That's what he said.) And that is the up-to-the-minute
report on the state of the national moral umbrage.
But if a Lewinsky lie was big enough to paralyze the government
for two years, what is the proper response to a possible lie that
costs more than 500 American soldiers and untold thousands of Iraqis
their lives?
[...]


http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/harris.html

As everyone knows, the war in Iraq was launched by the United States
and Britain to save the world from the "imminent" danger of Saddam's
WMDs. President Bush declared that there wasn't time for Hans Blix and
his team of UN weapons inspectors to complete their work in Iraq. In
the language of the post-9/11 White House, the threat level was a
throbbing red. It was the Marines or chaos.
The language was equally purple on the other side of the pond. We
now know from the Hutton report that the prime minister's personal
spinmeister, Alastair Campbell, ordered intelligence staff to change
the claim that the Iraqi military "may be able" to deploy weapons of
mass destruction in 45 minutes to "are able" -- a fraud that Blair
used to full effect to stampede his reluctant countrymen into war.
We also know from Lord Hutton that Blair's chief of staff,
Jonathon Powell, asked the head of the joint intelligence committee to
redraft a dossier that suggested Saddam Hussein "might use WMD if
under attack" to baldly state that he "would use them," period, no
qualifier, zilch. Perhaps these factoids explain why the Independent
newspaper greeted Lord Hutton's exoneration of Tony Blair and
vilification of the BBC in a single-word headline: "Whitewash."
The only people who outdid the newly beatified Blair in
exaggerating the WMD bogeyman worked for the president of the U.S.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld boasted that not only did Saddam
have WMDs, the Americans knew exactly where they were from U.S.
intelligence dossiers.
Secretary of State Colin Powell brought documented evidence to the
UN Security Council to make the same case. Wolf Blitzer may have
frothed patriotically, but for normal people, Powell's slide show
proved to be a rather less defining moment than when Adlai Stevenson
tabled before the same body spy satellite photos of real Soviet
missile installations in Cuba.
Sadly, the satellite photographs produced by the current secretary
of state turned out to be doctored, the mobile anthrax labs he
projected on the big screen for skeptical Security Council members
mere artists' conceptions.
In the meantime, Bush and Blair apologists now prefer to speak of
weapons programs rather than weapons and the fact that everyone is
better off without Saddam Hussein. Perhaps, or perhaps not, depending
on whether you believe liberation is no free elections and 13,000
Iraqis in prison without charges. But one thing is beyond dispute.
Fifteen thousand Iraqis and more than 500 American soldiers have so
far died for reasons other than the ones that George Bush and Tony
Blair earnestly pressed on their citizens.
[...]


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5613.htm

Sunday February 1, 2004: (The Observer) Senior American officials
concluded at the beginning of last May that there were no weapons of
mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq, The Observer has learnt.
Intelligence sources, policy makers and weapons inspectors familiar
with the details of the hunt for WMD told The Observer it was widely
known that Iraq had no WMD within three weeks of Baghdad falling,
despite the assertions of senior Bush administration figures and the
Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
[...]
William Barwell
2004-02-01 21:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
What's the matter? Afraid that actually speaking
to someone who was liberated by American
and British forces, and as a result doesn't
have to face being fed into a shredder or
have his family killed, would puncture your
inflated sense of moral worth? That it wouldn't
be quite as easy to make dumb and offensive
comparisions between a savage dictatorship
and a temporary occupation?
Idle dismissal of life, indeed.
You got me there, because tens of thousands of the people
you need to apologize to are dead because of the lies you backed.
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/opinion/editoria2004/edit013004_2004.shtmL
Post by midtowng
On election day, the Department of Defense released the names of five
more America's soldiers killed in Iraq. Three of them died on
Saturday, a day the presidential candidates spent wooing voters and
defending their votes and statements for and against the war.
One of dead, Sgt. Randy Rosenberg, 23, was from Berlin. Rosenberg
played hockey, graduated from Berlin High School in 1998 and married
Misty, a Goffstown girl, just 18 months ago. He wrote regular letters
from Iraq to his grandfather, William Gemitti, a Korean war veteran
and the hunting and fishing companion of Rosenberg's youth.
Now, now, more people die in one day in America from drunken drivers than
die each day in Iraq due to Bush's lies, exagerrations and stupidities,.

So you see, its perfectly OK and acceptable.
After all, Bush needs to parade around in a borrowed flight suit
to get elected so somebody has to die for Bush to pull that off.
Its politics and prefectly acceptable.


Vote Bush. Vote GOP. Bush hasn't finished destroying America yet.

Cheerful Charlie
Post by midtowng
In the Humvee with Rosenberg when the bomb went off along a road near
Khalidiyah, a city 60 miles west of Baghdad, was Specialist William
Sturges of Spring City, Pa. Sturges, whose wife was serving as a medic
in a combat hospital in Iraq, was 24. The couple have a 16-month-old
son. Sturges also had a 4-year-old son from an earlier relationship.
The modern Army allows both parents to serve overseas if it approves
their child care plans.
Killed with Rosenberg and Sturges was 22-year-old Jason Chappell of
Hemet, Calif. All three were part of the "All American" Task Force of
the 9th Calvary. Chappell, who had a 3.8 grade-point average, was a
star member of his high school's championship academic decathlon team.
He joined the Army, a local newspaper said, because he had not decided
what to do after high school.
Two more American soldiers were killed in a separate bombing that
Saturday, the day Sen. John Kerry skated with Bruins hockey stars in
Manchester, Wesley Clark held a rally with Ted Danson, John Edwards
met with voters at a Laconia soda shop and Howard Dean held a town
meeting on the Seacoast.
One was Sgt. Keith Smette, 25, of Makoti, N.D., a town of 140 people
near Fargo, where his parents run the local grain elevator. Like
Rosenberg, Smette was an athletic kid. He liked to hunt, fish and play
baseball. He left North Dakota State University with one year to go to
volunteer for duty in Iraq.
Sgt. Ken Hendrickson was the fifth man killed that day. The
41-year-old former school custodian left for Iraq four days after his
wedding. His teenage son told the paper in Hendrickson's hometown,
Bismarck, N.D., that his father loved to do "animated voices as he
read his favorite books" - The Stinky Cheese Man and The Foot Book by
Dr. Zeuss. From Iraq he sent his family photographs of the ground to
prove that it was not sand but "powdered dirt."
As of Wednesday, 519 members of the armed forces had died since the
invasion of Iraq.
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
So you don't feel obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh?
No--"Lying" means knowingly forwarding false information,
and that's not what happened. Unless you think
every intelligence agency on the planet was in on
the conspiracy, along with Saddam Hussein, who
_himself_ was convined he had WMD programs.
Every intelligence agency on the planet considered Saddam
a non-threat. But Every intelligence agency on the planet
considered Saddam's links to terrorists as unlikely.
Bush lied about those things and you repeated those lies.
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_feb1.html
If Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMD), as it long insisted,
we must draw one of two conclusions.
Either President George Bush, and secretaries Colin Powell and
Donald Rumsfeld, lied about the global threat they claimed Iraq posed,
and deceived Congress and the American people. Or, they were grossly
misinformed by their intelligence experts and must be judged fools of
the first order.
If Bush and his team of chest-thumping, self-proclaimed national
security experts were really misinformed about Iraq's weapons and
capabilities, then they started a war by mistake - and presided over
the two biggest national security fiascos since Pearl Harbor: the 9/11
attacks and the invasion of Iraq.
It turns out President Saddam Hussein, whom Bush repeatedly
branded a "liar," was in fact telling the truth all along when he said
all of Iraq's old weapons systems had been destroyed. It was Bush and
British PM Tony Blair who weren't telling the truth.
Saddam should hire attorney Johnny Cochrane and sue the U.S. and
Britain for all they're worth.
So, take your pick.
The Iraq war either was the Mother of All Lies, or the Mother of
All Fiascos.
[...]
http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-livit013651247feb01,0,3575764.column
Post by midtowng
DeLay, then-House Republican whip, said that unless President Clinton
was impeached for lying, somewhere someday a mother would "lose
custody of her baby in court because a father lies," and professors
would sell good grades for cash, and brave men would die due to lies
in the military, and businesses would collapse from "a cancer" of
lying throughout the land. You can look this up in the congressional
record. DeLay may even have had a point.
But I bring this up not to remind you of that sad episode in the
country's moral life, and in the marriage of the Clintons. I mention
it only to ask - honestly, because I am as curious as any other
increasingly anti-war American with grave doubts about the
truthfulness of my government in its pursuit of foreign (and domestic)
policies - why there was no earthquake in Washington this week when it
emerged that President George W. Bush may have launched an entire war
on the basis of a lie?
There was no earthquake, no Bible thumping, no Pat Robertson or
Tom DeLay. There were some high-end campaign speeches by the
Democrats. The president went to New Hampshire not to campaign for
president. (That's what he said.) And that is the up-to-the-minute
report on the state of the national moral umbrage.
But if a Lewinsky lie was big enough to paralyze the government
for two years, what is the proper response to a possible lie that
costs more than 500 American soldiers and untold thousands of Iraqis
their lives?
[...]
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/harris.html
As everyone knows, the war in Iraq was launched by the United States
and Britain to save the world from the "imminent" danger of Saddam's
WMDs. President Bush declared that there wasn't time for Hans Blix and
his team of UN weapons inspectors to complete their work in Iraq. In
the language of the post-9/11 White House, the threat level was a
throbbing red. It was the Marines or chaos.
The language was equally purple on the other side of the pond. We
now know from the Hutton report that the prime minister's personal
spinmeister, Alastair Campbell, ordered intelligence staff to change
the claim that the Iraqi military "may be able" to deploy weapons of
mass destruction in 45 minutes to "are able" -- a fraud that Blair
used to full effect to stampede his reluctant countrymen into war.
We also know from Lord Hutton that Blair's chief of staff,
Jonathon Powell, asked the head of the joint intelligence committee to
redraft a dossier that suggested Saddam Hussein "might use WMD if
under attack" to baldly state that he "would use them," period, no
qualifier, zilch. Perhaps these factoids explain why the Independent
newspaper greeted Lord Hutton's exoneration of Tony Blair and
vilification of the BBC in a single-word headline: "Whitewash."
The only people who outdid the newly beatified Blair in
exaggerating the WMD bogeyman worked for the president of the U.S.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld boasted that not only did Saddam
have WMDs, the Americans knew exactly where they were from U.S.
intelligence dossiers.
Secretary of State Colin Powell brought documented evidence to the
UN Security Council to make the same case. Wolf Blitzer may have
frothed patriotically, but for normal people, Powell's slide show
proved to be a rather less defining moment than when Adlai Stevenson
tabled before the same body spy satellite photos of real Soviet
missile installations in Cuba.
Sadly, the satellite photographs produced by the current secretary
of state turned out to be doctored, the mobile anthrax labs he
projected on the big screen for skeptical Security Council members
mere artists' conceptions.
In the meantime, Bush and Blair apologists now prefer to speak of
weapons programs rather than weapons and the fact that everyone is
better off without Saddam Hussein. Perhaps, or perhaps not, depending
on whether you believe liberation is no free elections and 13,000
Iraqis in prison without charges. But one thing is beyond dispute.
Fifteen thousand Iraqis and more than 500 American soldiers have so
far died for reasons other than the ones that George Bush and Tony
Blair earnestly pressed on their citizens.
[...]
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5613.htm
Sunday February 1, 2004: (The Observer) Senior American officials
concluded at the beginning of last May that there were no weapons of
mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq, The Observer has learnt.
Intelligence sources, policy makers and weapons inspectors familiar
with the details of the hunt for WMD told The Observer it was widely
known that Iraq had no WMD within three weeks of Baghdad falling,
despite the assertions of senior Bush administration figures and the
Prime Minister, Tony Blair.
[...]
--
"Socialist!" A name thrown at a moderate by a
reactionary who has run out of relevant argumemnts



Cheerful Charlie
Paul Havemann
2004-02-02 20:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
What's the matter? Afraid that actually speaking
to someone who was liberated by American
and British forces, and as a result doesn't
have to face being fed into a shredder or
have his family killed, would puncture your
inflated sense of moral worth? That it wouldn't
be quite as easy to make dumb and offensive
comparisions between a savage dictatorship
and a temporary occupation?
Well, it would make it rather difficult to concede
that he doesn't have a lock on morality.
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Idle dismissal of life, indeed.
You got me there, because tens of thousands of the people
you need to apologize to are dead because of the lies you backed.
IOW, Garrett, you don't dare take the chance of talking to an Iraqi
who might contradict you. The problem is that he, and a lot of Iraqis
like him, stand between you and your mad scramble for the moral
high ground.
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
So you don't feel obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh?
No--"Lying" means knowingly forwarding false information,
and that's not what happened. Unless you think
every intelligence agency on the planet was in on
the conspiracy, along with Saddam Hussein, who
_himself_ was convined he had WMD programs.
Every intelligence agency on the planet considered Saddam
a non-threat. But Every intelligence agency on the planet
considered Saddam's links to terrorists as unlikely.
Bush lied about those things and you repeated those lies.
Now *you're* lying. None ever said that Saddam was not a threat *at
all*, which is your too-clever implication. Two million dead, that
we know of, in mass graves -- remember?

And you've been reminded _ad nauseum_ of Saddam's links to terrorists
-- his bounties to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, to take
just one example.
Post by midtowng
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_feb1.html
If Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMD), as it long insisted,
we must draw one of two conclusions.
Either President George Bush, and secretaries Colin Powell and
Donald Rumsfeld, lied about the global threat they claimed Iraq posed,
and deceived Congress and the American people. Or, they were grossly
misinformed by their intelligence experts and must be judged fools of
the first order.
Just how often do you need to be reminded of this before it sinks in?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A26671-2003Jun6&notFound=true

Because if Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are lying,
they're not alone. They're part of a vast conspiratorial network
of liars that includes U.N. weapons inspectors and reputable arms
control experts both inside and outside government, both
Republicans and Democrats.

Maybe former CIA director John Deutch was lying when he testified
before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Sept. 19, 1996, that
"we believe that [Hussein] retains an undetermined quantity of
chemical and biological agents that he would certainly have the
ability to deliver against adversaries by aircraft or artillery or
by Scud missile systems."

Maybe former defense secretary William Cohen was lying in April
when he said, "I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons.
... I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors
being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours
with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out."

Maybe the German intelligence service was lying when it reported
in 2001 that Hussein might be three years away from being able to
build three nuclear weapons and that by 2005 Iraq would have a
missile with sufficient range to reach Europe.

Maybe French President Jacques Chirac was lying when he declared
in February that there were probably weapons of mass destruction
in Iraq and that "we have to find and destroy them."

Maybe Al Gore was lying when he declared last September, based on
what he learned as vice president, that Hussein had "stored secret
supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his
country."

Finally, there's former president Bill Clinton. In a February 1998
speech, Clinton described Iraq's "offensive biological warfare
capability, notably 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes
botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud
warheads; and 157 aerial bombs." Clinton accurately reported the
view of U.N. weapons inspectors "that Iraq still has stockpiles of
chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type
missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production
program and build many, many more weapons." That was as
unequivocal and unqualified a statement as any made by George W.
Bush.

Clinton went on to insist, in words now poignant, that the world
had to address the "kind of threat Iraq poses ... a rogue state
with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide
them to terrorists ... who travel the world among us unnoticed." I
think Bush said that, too.

So if you like a good conspiracy, this one's a doozy.
midtowng
2004-02-04 03:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Havemann
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
What's the matter? Afraid that actually speaking
to someone who was liberated by American
and British forces, and as a result doesn't
have to face being fed into a shredder or
have his family killed, would puncture your
inflated sense of moral worth? That it wouldn't
be quite as easy to make dumb and offensive
comparisions between a savage dictatorship
and a temporary occupation?
Well, it would make it rather difficult to concede
that he doesn't have a lock on morality.
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Idle dismissal of life, indeed.
You got me there, because tens of thousands of the people
you need to apologize to are dead because of the lies you backed.
IOW, Garrett, you don't dare take the chance of talking to an Iraqi
who might contradict you. The problem is that he, and a lot of Iraqis
like him, stand between you and your mad scramble for the moral
high ground.
I could go into the fact that America was NOT welcomed as liberators
by a vast majority of Iraqis.
The fact that thousands of Iraqis are shooting at us, and
each successful attack is usually celebrated by dancing Iraqis,
should give even you and Ernst some pause to consider.
And then there is the fact that tens of thousands of Iraqis
are dead because of our bombs and bullets, and therefore probably
would have a different opinion of our invasion than either of you,
as well as your friend above.

But all of that is still a distraction from the topic at hand.
Something that both Bush and every single conservative on usenet
are trying very desperately to do. Instead of explaining it
myself, I'll let someone else do it for me.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that none of you will address this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4337-2004Feb1.html

When President Bush is asked whether he regrets attacking Iraq on what
now turns out to be bad information, he always answers to the effect
that the world is better off with Saddam Hussein out of power.
Which is no answer at all. I can think of many world leaders
(and even a few members of the Bush administration) whose absence from
power would leave the world better off. But that does not justify
turning thought into violent action.

The president wants us to forget this awkward truth: The justification
he offered for attacking Iraq was not that Hussein was a bad guy but
(1) that he was contemptuously in violation of U.N. resolutions and
(2) that he and his weapons of mass destruction were an urgent danger
to the United States -- so ominous, in fact, that if we waited for
more inspections and negotiations, it might be too late.
Former weapons inspector David Kay now says, to the obvious
embarrassment of the administration, that he believes Iraq had no
weapons of mass destruction when American bombers struck Baghdad
almost a year ago. Does that mean that we launched the war on false
pretenses?
No, in Kay's view; yes, in mine.
Kay explains that he thought at the time that the WMDs existed and
were a menace. The problem, he has been at pains to say, is not Bush
administration mendacity but failure of the intelligence apparatus.
Bush, by that explanation, is not villain but victim.
Well, he was a most eager victim, practically begging for
justification -- any justification -- for the war he was determined to
have. He was only temporarily stalled when Secretary of State Colin
Powell persuaded him to take the case to the U.N. Security Council.
But the administration's chapter-and-verse accounting of how Hussein
had violated U.N. agreements and directives did not produce a call for
war.
The Bush administration was left with a single rationale: Iraq's
urgent threat to America.
Thus came Powell's Feb. 5 multimedia extravaganza before the
Security Council. You may remember it.
"Let's look at one [satellite image]. This one is about a weapons
munition facility, a facility that holds ammunition at a place called
Taji. This is one of about 65 such facilities in Iraq. We know that
this one has housed chemical munitions. . . .
"Here, you see 15 munitions bunkers in yellow and red outlines.
The four that are in the red squares represent active chemical
munitions bunkers."
Again:
"At this biological-weapons-related facility, on November 25, just
two days before inspections resumed, this truck caravan appeared,
something we almost never see at this facility, and we monitor it
carefully and regularly . . . five large cargo trucks appeared along
with the truck-mounted crane to move missiles. We saw this kind of
housecleaning at close to 30 sites."
Oh, and enough anthrax (one spoonful of which was enough to shut
down the U.S. Senate in the fall of 2001) to "fill tens upon tens upon
tens of thousands of teaspoons."
And this: "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed
up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're
giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence."
Well, not so solid after all, it turns out.
The question -- to give Powell the benefit of the doubt Kay
gives the president -- is: Did the intelligence agencies serve the
secretary of state a batch of cooked evidence?
Or was Colin, my personal hero, in the kitchen?
Does it matter? Perhaps the administration oversold the
evidence. Perhaps the war was, in retrospect, too hasty, even
unnecessary. But, hey, it happened, so let's just get on with it.
What's the point of raking through the ashes of year-old decisions?
Maybe there is no point -- if you believe, as Kay claims to
believe, that it's all about failed intelligence.
But there is a vital point if you believe, as I'm increasingly
inclined to believe, that the administration lied to us in calculated
and quite deliberate ways. If that happened, if it still is happening,
I want to know as much about it as can be discovered. After all,
there's an election coming up.
midtowng
2004-02-04 04:07:19 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Paul Havemann
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
So you don't feel obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh?
No--"Lying" means knowingly forwarding false information,
and that's not what happened. Unless you think
every intelligence agency on the planet was in on
the conspiracy, along with Saddam Hussein, who
_himself_ was convined he had WMD programs.
Every intelligence agency on the planet considered Saddam
a non-threat. But Every intelligence agency on the planet
considered Saddam's links to terrorists as unlikely.
Bush lied about those things and you repeated those lies.
Now *you're* lying. None ever said that Saddam was not a threat *at
all*, which is your too-clever implication.
To America? Hell, yes he was not a threat *at all*.
"None ever said"? _I_ said it before the war!
You don't really think that I was alone in this, do
you?
Post by Paul Havemann
Two million dead, that
we know of, in mass graves -- remember?
Your memory is faulty. The last report was 300,000 in
mass graves, and who knows how many of them were from
the Iran-Iraq war. 300k is still plenty so I don't know
why you guys still insist on exaggeration.
Yes, he was still a danger to Iraqis. No one questions that.
What he wasn't was a danger to anyone else in the world. That's
why every single one of Iraq's neighbors, the people who
supposedly should feel theatened, opposed this war.
Post by Paul Havemann
And you've been reminded _ad nauseum_ of Saddam's links to terrorists
-- his bounties to families of Palestinian suicide bombers, to take
just one example.
ONLY example. This is another exaggeration. No sponsorship.
No training. No guidance. No arming. No bases.
Hell, America does a lot more than this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/06/international/middleeast/06INTE.html

WASHINGTON, Feb. 5 &#8212; The Central Intelligence Agency has no
evidence that Iraq has engaged in terrorist operations against the
United States in nearly a decade, and the agency is also convinced
that President Saddam Hussein has not provided chemical or biological
weapons to Al Qaeda or related terrorist groups, according to several
American intelligence officials.
The officials said they believe that the last terrorist operation
tried by Iraq against the United States was the assassination attempt
against the first President Bush during his visit to Kuwait in 1993.
That plot was disrupted before it could be carried out. American
intelligence officials believe that Mr. Hussein has been reluctant to
use terrorism again for fear of being detected.
[...]
Mr. Bush said Iraq "continues to flaunt its hostility toward America
and to support terror," but the section of his speech devoted to Iraq
focused primarily on Baghdad's efforts to develop weapons of mass
destruction. In fact, some American intelligence officials say, the
Bush administration does not have enough evidence of Iraqi complicity
in anti- American terrorism to justify making Iraq the next target in
the war on terrorism.
Post by Paul Havemann
Post by midtowng
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_feb1.html
If Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction (WMD), as it long insisted,
we must draw one of two conclusions.
Either President George Bush, and secretaries Colin Powell and
Donald Rumsfeld, lied about the global threat they claimed Iraq posed,
and deceived Congress and the American people. Or, they were grossly
misinformed by their intelligence experts and must be judged fools of
the first order.
Just how often do you need to be reminded of this before it sinks in?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A26671-2003Jun6&notFound=true
Because if Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are lying,
they're not alone. They're part of a vast conspiratorial network
of liars that includes U.N. weapons inspectors and reputable arms
control experts both inside and outside government, both
Republicans and Democrats.
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1073280860558&p=1012571727102

Bush administration officials "systematically misrepresented" the
threat from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to war,
according to a new report to be published on Thursday by a respected
Washington think-tank.
These distortions, combined with intelligence failures,
exaggerated the risks posed by a country that presented no immediate
threat to the US, Middle East or global security, the report says.
[...]
The report says administration officials misrepresented the
threat in three ways.
They presented nuclear, biological and chemical weapons as a
single WMD threat, lumping together the high likelihood that Iraq had
chemical weapons with the possibility that it had nuclear weapons, a
claim for which there was no serious evidence. The administration also
insisted without evidence that Saddam Hussein, the former Iraqi
leader, would give WMD to terrorists.
Finally, officials misused intelligence in many ways. "These
include the wholesale dropping of caveats, probabilities and
expressions of uncertainty present in intelligence assessments from
public statements," it says.
[...]


Or to put this another way:
http://www.agonist.org/

Let me see if I've got this right: the United States of America is in
an uproar about JJ's tit; Investigations are being demanded and
apologies are being made at a rate hitherto unseen in our history; and
yet no one cares about the fact that no WMD was found in Iraq or that
the Administration lied about it? Or the fact that the Bush
administration is still lying about the budget deficit?

This country is f$%^king nuts.
chris.holt
2004-02-01 20:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Liberation? Is that what foreign military occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
Ask the women who now have to wear burkhas how much freer they
feel now.
--
***@ncl.ac.uk http://homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk/chris.holt
midtowng
2004-02-09 06:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
Post by Ernst Blofeld
If you'd like to apologize to the Iraqi people
for opposing their liberation,
Liberation? Is that what foreign military
occupation is called now?
Well, you can email that guy in Iraq and ask
zeyad_w at hotmail dot com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/dj/Qiraq-us-poll.Rfi3_DON.html

BAGHDAD, Oct 23 (AFP) - More and more Iraqis view the US forces as
"occupiers" not liberators and say they want an Islamic-style
democracy, citing Iran as a model, said a new poll released here
Thursday.
The results found 67 percent of Iraqis view the US-led coalition
as an occupying force, while only 46 percent of the population
considered them as such when US troops rolled into Baghdad April 9,
said the Iraqi Centre for Research and Strategic Studies.
Over the same timeframe, those who viewed the US forces as
liberators slumped from 43 percent to 15 percent, the study said.
[...]

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_843216.html

The vast majority of Iraqis have no confidence in coalition troops,
the
first national survey of Iraq has shown.
In the poll of more than 3,000 homes across Iraq, 79% said they
had no
confidence in US and UK forces - and 73% had no faith in the Coalition
Provision Authority. Just 8% said they trusted US and UK troops.
[...]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040209/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack

TIKRIT, Iraq - Gunmen, including a major in the new Iraqi police
force, attacked a group of American soldiers, sparking a gunbattle in
which the officer was killed and two other attackers wounded, the U.S.
military said Sunday.
The U.S. military has been training Iraqi police forces to take
on a greater role in fighting the insurgency waged by guerrillas
against American troops, mainly in Baghdad and regions north and west
of the capital. Supporters of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s
ousted regime are thought to be leading the campaign, which has also
targeted police and other Iraqis seen as cooperating with the American
occupation.
midtowng
2004-02-11 02:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
So you don't feel Bush is obligated to apologize to the
American people for lying to them, eh?
No--"Lying" means knowingly forwarding false information,
and that's not what happened. Unless you think
every intelligence agency on the planet was in on
the conspiracy, along with Saddam Hussein, who
_himself_ was convined he had WMD programs.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/7915254.htm

WASHINGTON - The public version of the U.S. intelligence community's
key prewar assessment of Iraq's illicit arms programs was stripped of
dissenting opinions, warnings of insufficient information, and doubts
about Saddam Hussein's intentions, a review of the document and its
once-classified version shows.

As a result, the public was given a far more definitive assessment of
Iraq's plans and capabilities than President Bush and other U.S.
decision-makers received from their intelligence agencies.

The stark differences between the public version and the then
top-secret version of the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate
raise new questions about the accuracy of the public case made for a
war that has claimed the lives of more than 500 U.S. service members
and thousands of Iraqis.

The two documents are replete with differences. For example, the
public version declared that "most analysts assess Iraq is
reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and says "if left
unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade."

It fails to mention the dissenting view offered in the top-secret
version by the State Department's intelligence arm, the Bureau of
Intelligence and Research, known as the INR.

That view said, in part: "The activities we have detected do not,
however, add up to a compelling case that Iraq is currently pursuing
what INR would consider to be an integrated and comprehensive approach
to acquire nuclear weapons. Iraq may be doing so, but INR considers
the available evidence inadequate to support such a judgment."

This alternative view further said, "INR is unwilling to... project a
timeline for the completion of activities it does not now see
happening."

Both versions were written by the National Intelligence Council, a
board of senior analysts who report to CIA Director George Tenet and
prepare reports on crucial national security issues. Stuart Cohen, a
30-year CIA veteran, was the council's acting chairman at the time.

The CIA did not respond officially to requests to explain the
differences in the two versions. A senior intelligence official,
speaking on condition of anonymity, explained them by saying a more
candid public version could have revealed U.S. intelligence-gathering
methods.

Last week, Tenet defended the intelligence community's reporting on
Iraq, telling an audience at Georgetown University that differences
over Iraq's capabilities "were spelled out" in the October 2002
intelligence estimate.

But while top U.S. officials may have been told of differences among
analysts, those disputes were kept from the American public in key
areas, including whether Hussein was stockpiling biological and
chemical weapons and whether he might dispatch poison-spraying robot
aircraft to attack the United States.

Both documents have been available to the public for months. The CIA
released the public version, titled "Iraq's Weapons of Mass
Destruction Programs," in October 2002, when the Bush administration
was making its case for war. The White House declassified and released
portions of the National Intelligence Estimate's key findings in July
2003.

The Inquirer Washington Bureau compared the documents in light of
Tenet's speech and continuing controversy over the intelligence that
Bush used to justify the invasion last March. There are seven official
inquiries into the issue.

What that comparison showed is that while the top-secret version
delivered to Bush, his top lieutenants and Congress was heavily
qualified with caveats about some of its most important conclusions
about Iraq's illicit weapons programs, those caveats were omitted from
the public version.

The caveats included the phases "we judge that," "we assess that" and
"we lack specific information on many key aspects of Iraq's WMD
[weapons of mass destruction] programs."

These phrases, according to current and former intelligence officials,
long have been used in intelligence reports to stress an absence of
hard information and underscore that judgments are extrapolations or
estimates.

Among the most striking differences between the versions were those
over Iraq's development of small, unmanned aircraft, also known as
unmanned aerial vehicles.

The public version said Iraq's UAVs "especially if used for delivery
of chemical and biological warfare (CBW) agents - could threaten
Iraq's neighbors, US forces in the Persian Gulf, and the United States
if brought close to, or into, the US Homeland."

The classified version showed there was major disagreement on the
issue from the agency with the greatest expertise on such aircraft,
the Air Force. The Air Force "does not agree that Iraq is developing
UAVs primarily intended to be delivery platforms for chemical and
biological warfare (CBW) agents," it said. "The small size of Iraq's
new UAV strongly suggests a primary role of reconnaissance, although
CBW delivery is an inherent capability."

There was substantial difference between the public version of the
estimate and the classified version on the issue of Iraq's
biological-weapons program.

The public version contained the alarming warning that Iraq was
capable of quickly developing biological-warfare agents that could be
delivered by "bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives,
including potentially against the U.S. Homeland."

No such warning that Iraq's biological weapons could be delivered to
the United States appeared in the classified version.

In a section on chemical weapons, the top-secret findings said the
intelligence community had "little specific information on Iraq's CW
[chemical weapons] stockpile." That caveat was deleted from the public
version.

The classified report went on to say that Iraq "probably has stocked
at least 100 metric tons [MT] and possibly as much as 500 MT of CW
agents - much of it added last year."

"Saddam probably has stocked a few hundred metric tons of CW agents,"
said the public report.

Deleted from the public version was a line in the classified report
that cast doubt on whether Hussein was prepared to support terrorist
attacks on the United States, a danger that Bush and his top aides
raised repeatedly.

"Baghdad for now appears to be drawing a line short of conducting
terrorist attacks with conventional or CBW against the United States,
fearing that exposure of Iraqi involvement would provide Washington
with a stronger case for making war," the top-secret report said.

Also missing from the public report were judgments that Iraq would
attempt "clandestine attacks" on the United States only if a U.S.
invasion threatened the survival of Hussein's regime or "possibly for
revenge."

"We have no specific intelligence information that Saddam's regime has
directed attacks against US territory," the classified report said.
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-12 00:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
The two documents are replete with differences. For example, the
public version declared that "most analysts assess Iraq is
reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and says "if left
unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade."
That's what happens in NIEs. The political leadership, rightly,
wants to know the best estimates. They get pissed off when
they see documents full of one analyst saying one thing and
another analyst saying another thing. The intelligence community
gets paid to provide their best estimates, not just kick
the job upstairs to let the political leadership sort
through the data.
midtowng
2004-02-12 16:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
The two documents are replete with differences. For example, the
public version declared that "most analysts assess Iraq is
reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and says "if left
unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade."
That's what happens in NIEs. The political leadership, rightly,
wants to know the best estimates. They get pissed off when
they see documents full of one analyst saying one thing and
another analyst saying another thing. The intelligence community
gets paid to provide their best estimates, not just kick
the job upstairs to let the political leadership sort
through the data.
Bravo! That's a great rationalization. Too bad it has
nothing to do with reality. "sorting through the data" doesn't
mean leaving out one entire side.
Well here's another view:
The American public wants to here the truth, especially when it
means going to war.
The Bush Administration decided to give only one side of
very skechy information. Which is the exact same thing as
_misleading_.
midtowng
2004-02-13 00:46:36 UTC
Permalink
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/front/7915254.htm
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
The two documents are replete with differences. For example, the
public version declared that "most analysts assess Iraq is
reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and says "if left
unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade."
That's what happens in NIEs. The political leadership, rightly,
wants to know the best estimates. They get pissed off when
they see documents full of one analyst saying one thing and
another analyst saying another thing.
Looks like most people aren't buying this rationalization.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37340-2004Feb12.html

Most Americans believe President Bush either lied or deliberately
exaggerated evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction
in order to justify war, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News
poll.
The survey results, which also show declining support for the war
in Iraq and for Bush's leadership in general, indicate the public is
increasingly questioning the president's truthfulness -- a concern for
Bush's political advisers as his reelection bid gets underway.
Barely half -- 52 percent -- now believe Bush is "honest and
trustworthy," down seven points since late October and his worst
showing since the question was first asked in March 1999. At his best,
in the summer of 2002, Bush was viewed as honest by 71 percent. The
survey found that while nearly seven in 10 think Bush "honestly
believed" Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, 54 percent thought
Bush exaggerated or lied about pre-war intelligence.
Bush's possible Democratic opponent, Sen. John Kerry (Mass.),
has begun to talk about a "credibility gap." Even some Bush allies say
they have been misled about Iraq's weapons, and the current Time
magazine cover story asks: "Believe him or not -- does Bush have a
credibility gap?"
Questions about Bush's use of pre-war intelligence, in addition
to feeding doubts about his honesty, have sent his job rating
plummeting. Fifty percent of Americans approve of the job he is doing,
the lowest level of his presidency in the Post-ABC poll and down 8
percentage points from January. The survey found that, for the first
time since the war ended, fewer than half of Americans -- 48 percent
-- believe the war was worth fighting, down 8 points from last month.
Fifty percent said the war was not worth it.
These doubts have affected Bush's reelection prospects. In a
head-to-head matchup, Kerry beat Bush, 52 percent to 43 percent, among
registered voters polled by the Post.
[...]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/daily/graphics/bush_approval_021204.html
midtowng
2004-02-14 02:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Post by midtowng
The two documents are replete with differences. For example, the
public version declared that "most analysts assess Iraq is
reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and says "if left
unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade."
That's what happens in NIEs. The political leadership, rightly,
wants to know the best estimates.
Not the Bush Administration and our key allies.
They wanted something predetermined and were prepared
to ignore their own intelligence agencies.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/13/1076548224395.html

Intelligence agencies told the Federal Government in the weeks before
the Iraq war that some of the Bush Administration's claims justifying
an invasion were exaggerated, according to one of Australia's most
senior intelligence officials.

Assessments provided to Prime Minister John Howard stated that US
Secretary of State Colin Powell's prewar address to the United Nations
"went beyond the available evidence" in at least two areas, the
official said.

It is believed these included claims of mobile biological weapons
laboratories and alleged links between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

The official - who spoke on condition of anonymity - said the
Government was told before the war that Saddam Hussein's weapons of
mass destruction did not pose an immediate threat. Iraq's chemical and
biological warfare capabilities were largely latent, they said.

In a private briefing attended by The Age, the official said the
threat posed by Iraq last year did not justify its invasion.

The briefing painted a picture of intelligence on Iraq at odds with
some of Mr Howard's comments before and after the war.
[...]
Ernst Blofeld
2004-02-19 00:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by midtowng
Not the Bush Administration and our key allies.
They wanted something predetermined and were prepared
to ignore their own intelligence agencies.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/13/1076548224395.html
Intelligence agencies told the Federal Government in the weeks before
the Iraq war that some of the Bush Administration's claims justifying
an invasion were exaggerated, according to one of Australia's most
senior intelligence officials.
It looks like the Age could have its own Gilligan affair.

via Tim Blair
http://timblair.spleenville.com/
====
Intelligence official Frank Lewincamp revealed yesterday that he was
the source of The Age's claim:

The head of the Defence Intelligence Organisation, Frank Lewincamp,
has told a Senate committee he was the principal source for a report
in Saturday's Age on assessments of Iraq's weapons of mass
destruction.

Mr Lewincamp said he had spoken to Age foreign affairs correspondent
Mark Forbes about four times since the seminar, most recently on
Friday when Forbes told him an article on intelligence reporting on
Iraq WMD would be in The Age the next day.
Mr Lewincamp said he did not make and would never make some of the
statements attributed to the official in the report.

"For example, I have never said the Bush Administration's claims
justifying an invasion were exaggerated," he said. "Nor have I said
that the Government was told that Iraq WMD did not pose an immediate
threat."
====

Someone wants a predetermined outcome, all right, and they don't
care who they have to misquote to get it.

Ernst Blofeld
2004-01-28 18:44:27 UTC
Permalink
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/28/ubbc.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/01/28/ixportaltop.html
====
Gavyn Davies, the BBC chairman, has tendered his resignation after
Lord Hutton described the corporation as "defective" in his report
into the death of Dr David Kelly.

The BBC's press office has not confirmed the move but Andrew Marr, the
BBC's political editor, reported that Mr Davies, a close friend of
Labour leaders, would quit at a meeting this evening.

The news came after Greg Dyke, the BBC's director general, apologised
for "certain key allegations" made by Andrew Gilligan, the Today
reporter whose story started the row between the corporation and the
Government.

But Mr Dyke said the BBC had never accused Tony Blair of lying and had
already put in place a new structure and guidelines to deal with
complaints in the future.
====
James Knox
2004-02-02 09:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernst Blofeld
Gavyn Davies, the BBC chairman, has tendered his resignation after
Lord Hutton described the corporation as "defective" in his report
into the death of Dr David Kelly.
The BBC's press office has not confirmed the move but Andrew Marr, the
BBC's political editor, reported that Mr Davies, a close friend of
Labour leaders, would quit at a meeting this evening.
The news came after Greg Dyke, the BBC's director general, apologised
for "certain key allegations" made by Andrew Gilligan, the Today
reporter whose story started the row between the corporation and the
Government.
But Mr Dyke said the BBC had never accused Tony Blair of lying and had
already put in place a new structure and guidelines to deal with
complaints in the future.
====
Polls show backlash against Blair after 'whitewash' report
By Nigel Morris
02 February 2004

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=486954
======
Ministers may feel delighted that Lord Hutton vindicated them, but sceptical
voters give them no credit for it. A poll yesterday was the sixth in three days
to show that the Government has suffered an unexpected public backlash from
those who suspect the law lord's report was a whitewash.

The YouGov survey for ITV's Jonathan Dimbleby programme, showed half of voters
believe Lord Hutton was wrong to conclude that the Government did not "sex up"
its September 2002 dossier about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. More than
half of those surveyed think there should be a judicial inquiry into how the
Government took Britain into war with Iraq.

Asked if they thought the Hutton inquiry was judicious and balanced or a
whitewash, some 26 per cent replied judicious and balanced, and 55 per cent
said it was a whitewash.

Despite Lord Hutton's verdict against the BBC, the corporation is still
perceived to be more trustworthy than the Government. Forty-four per cent
trusted the BBC more to tell the truth, and 12 per cent trusted the Government
more. But 29 per cent trusted neither.
Respondents were also asked if the Hutton report had affected their view of
whether Tony Blair could be trusted to tell the truth. Some 7 per cent said
they trusted him more and 12 per cent said they trusted him less. Fifty per
cent said their view had not changed - they still did not trust him - and 23
per cent said their view was unchanged; they still trusted him. Nearly 62 per
cent said they did not trust him or trusted him less after the report.
<snip>
GOVERNMENT FACES ANOTHER TOUGH WEEK

MONDAY: No public engagements for Tony Blair as he spends most of the day in
Downing Street preparing for an appearance before the Commons liaison
committee.

There is likely to be contact between No 10 and the White House over President
George Bush's shifting position on WMD. The Tories are to publish a Commons
motion calling for an independent inquiry into the failure to find WMD.

TUESDAY: Mr Blair appears before the liaison committee, which comprises the
Commons' most senior backbenchers. The hunt for WMD in Iraq and last week's
knife-edge vote on university top-up fees are likely to be important issues.

The Government is also expected to respond to a report by the Parliamentary
Intelligence and Security Committee, which judged that Downing Street had not
"sexed up" the September 2002 dossier that made the case for war in Iraq.

WEDNESDAY: Prime Minister's Questions, followed by a full-day debate on the
Hutton report. Mr Blair will lead for the Government.

THURSDAY: Geoff Hoon, the Secretary of State for Defence, who surprisingly
emerged unscathed from the Hutton report, will give evidence to the Defence
Committee, which is investigating the lessons that could be learnt from the war
in Iraq.
===============
midtowng
2004-02-02 17:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Knox
Polls show backlash against Blair after 'whitewash' report
By Nigel Morris
02 February 2004
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=486954
======
Ministers may feel delighted that Lord Hutton vindicated them, but sceptical
voters give them no credit for it. A poll yesterday was the sixth in three days
to show that the Government has suffered an unexpected public backlash from
those who suspect the law lord's report was a whitewash.
The YouGov survey for ITV's Jonathan Dimbleby programme, showed half of voters
believe Lord Hutton was wrong to conclude that the Government did not "sex up"
its September 2002 dossier about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. More than
half of those surveyed think there should be a judicial inquiry into how the
Government took Britain into war with Iraq.
Asked if they thought the Hutton inquiry was judicious and balanced or a
whitewash, some 26 per cent replied judicious and balanced, and 55 per cent
said it was a whitewash.
Despite Lord Hutton's verdict against the BBC, the corporation is still
perceived to be more trustworthy than the Government. Forty-four per cent
trusted the BBC more to tell the truth, and 12 per cent trusted the Government
more. But 29 per cent trusted neither.
Respondents were also asked if the Hutton report had affected their view of
whether Tony Blair could be trusted to tell the truth. Some 7 per cent said
they trusted him more and 12 per cent said they trusted him less. Fifty per
cent said their view had not changed - they still did not trust him - and 23
per cent said their view was unchanged; they still trusted him. Nearly 62 per
cent said they did not trust him or trusted him less after the report.
<snip>
Once again, the British show themselves smarter about politics
than most Americans.
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