"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-books-on-goodreads
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of those that I
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not read in movies.
Lynn

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Lynn McGuire

2018-08-20 19:43:43 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.

Lynn

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-20 20:04:12 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the written version. And I would definitely call Pern Science Fiction, or arguably Science fantasy. It is surely rather soft SF, but there are spaceships (or were in its backstory), the "special abilities" are presented as psionics and as being repeatably rule-bound, albiet not fully understood by the characters. If this is fantasy, so are the Telzy stories by Schmitz. Indeed, so is _A Gift from Earth_ by Niven (Plateau Eyes).

-DES

Lynn McGuire

2018-08-20 20:17:27 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.

Lynn

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-20 20:52:40 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of human beings, with no supernatural abilities or forces invoked. But its been many years since I read it, and i may be forgetting things.

In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an attempt at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting. Granted the biology and physics are more than a little dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between those is very vague and wavy.)

-DES

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2018-08-20 21:01:39 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an
attempt at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the
setting. Granted the biology and physics are more than a little
dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to
be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy
rather than SF? (Granted, the border between those is very vague
and wavy.)

The first trilogy was stylistically fantasy, not SF. Which is about
as soft and fuzzy as it gets.

But girls riding telepathic dragons is definitely a fantasy trope,
not SF.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

David Johnston

2018-08-20 21:07:44 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of human beings, with no supernatural abilities or forces invoked. But its been many years since I read it, and i may be forgetting things.
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an attempt at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting. Granted the biology and physics are more than a little dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between those is very vague and wavy.)
-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of high
fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-20 21:58:09 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of human beings, with no supernatural abilities or forces invoked. But its been many years since I read it, and i may be forgetting things.
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an attempt at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting. Granted the biology and physics are more than a little dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between those is very vague and wavy.)
-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of high
fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern books, particularly not in the early ones. There was what I might call melee pest extermination. Thread, the true antagonist and the things which the dragons have been bred to exterminate, seems to be a non-sapient, living thing on about the level of a fungal spore. Indeed the ancestral text found in the abandoned part of the weyr called them "spores" IIRC. I don't think that cooperative extermination of dangerous spores is quote the trope that the term "melee combat" brings to mind.

Yes, psionics is probably not real. Neither is FTL. I am willing to accept both as SFnal. If one is not, the psi powers including but not limited to telepathy (used to communicate with various non-humans) arguably convert Niven's Known Space into a Fantasy setting.

Feudalism is a common trope for pre-industrial settings. That is more common for fantasy than for SF, but has been used many times in what is pretty clearly SF. _Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen_ by Piper comes to mind, as does Webber's Safehold series. A degree of feudalism seems to be present in Niven & Pournelle's _The Mote in God's Eye.

Dragons are a common fantasy trope, but bioengineered dragons seem more like SF to me. or does _Tuff Voyaging_ count as fantasy?

-DES

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-20 22:07:08 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley

https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-books-on-goodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of those that I
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not read in movies.
Lynn

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either

_Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the written

version. And I would definitely call Pern Science Fiction, or arguably
Science fantasy. It is surely rather soft SF, but there are spaceships
(or were in its backstory), the "special abilities" are presented as
psionics and as being repeatably rule-bound, albiet not fully understood
by the characters. If this is fantasy, so are the Telzy stories by
Schmitz. Indeed, so is _A Gift from Earth_ by Niven (Plateau Eyes).

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The Pit

and the Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a classic
of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that the horror in
_The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of human beings, with no
supernatural abilities or forces invoked. But its been many years since
I read it, and i may be forgetting things.

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an attempt

at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting. Granted the
biology and physics are more than a little dubious, but I'm willing to
treat it as the soft SF it claims to be, rather than fantasy. What
elements seem to you to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border
between those is very vague and wavy.)

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of high
fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern books,
particularly not in the early ones. There was what I might call melee
pest extermination. Thread, the true antagonist and the things which the
dragons have been bred to exterminate, seems to be a non-sapient, living
thing on about the level of a fungal spore. Indeed the ancestral text
found in the abandoned part of the weyr called them "spores" IIRC. I
don't think that cooperative extermination of dangerous spores is quote
the trope that the term "melee combat" brings to mind.
Yes, psionics is probably not real. Neither is FTL. I am willing to
accept both as SFnal. If one is not, the psi powers including but not
limited to telepathy (used to communicate with various non-humans)
arguably convert Niven's Known Space into a Fantasy setting.
Feudalism is a common trope for pre-industrial settings. That is more
common for fantasy than for SF, but has been used many times in what is
pretty clearly SF. _Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen_ by Piper comes to mind, as
does Webber's Safehold series. A degree of feudalism seems to be present
in Niven & Pournelle's _The Mote in God's Eye.
Dragons are a common fantasy trope, but bioengineered dragons seem more
like SF to me. or does _Tuff Voyaging_ count as fantasy?
-DES

Or a certain Hugo winner..

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2018-08-20 22:30:43 UTC

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 5:07:47 PM UTC-4, David Johnston

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-b
ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of
those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not
read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science
Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

And I would definitely call Pern Science Fiction, or arguably
Science fantasy. It is surely rather soft SF, but there are
spaceships (or were in its backstory), the "special abilities"
are presented as psionics and as being repeatably rule-bound,
albiet not fully understood by the characters. If this is
fantasy, so are the Telzy stories by Schmitz. Indeed, so is _A
Gift from Earth_ by Niven (Plateau Eyes).

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories
definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The
Pit and t

he Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a
classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that
the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of
human beings, with no supernatural abilities or forces invoked.
But its been many years since I read it, and i may be forgetting
things.

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an
attempt at

an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting.
Granted the biology and physics are more than a little dubious,
but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to be,
rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy
rather than SF? (Granted, the border between those is very
vague and wavy.)

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by
Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern
books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-21 00:16:01 UTC

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-b
ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of
those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not
read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science
Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories
definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The
Pit and t

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an
attempt at

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by
Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern
books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Yes there is, but that is single combat, almost ritual combat, not melee combat (aka multiple fighters on each side). I will grant that this kind of kife fight, basically a formal duel, is more common in fantasy than SF (although RAH's _Beyond This Horizion_ comes to mind) but again that goes with the pre-industral tech level, IMO.

-DES

Ninapenda Jibini

2018-08-21 02:18:39 UTC

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 6:30:46 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 5:07:47 PM UTC-4, David

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 4:17:30 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantas
y-b ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two
of those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have
not read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Science Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

And I would definitely call Pern Science Fiction, or
arguably Science fantasy. It is surely rather soft SF, but
there are spaceships (or were in its backstory), the
"special abilities" are presented as psionics and as being
repeatably rule-bound, albiet not fully understood by the
characters. If this is fantasy, so are the Telzy stories by
Schmitz. Indeed, so is _A Gift from Earth_ by Niven (Plateau
Eyes).

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern
stories definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's
"The Pit and t

he Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a
classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is
that the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the
actions of human beings, with no supernatural abilities or
forces invoked. But its been many years since I read it, and
i may be forgetting things.

In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least
an attempt at

an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting.
Granted the biology and physics are more than a little
dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it
claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you
to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between
those is very vague and wavy.)

-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced
by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the
Pern books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Yes there is, but that is single combat, almost ritual combat,
not melee combat (aka multiple fighters on each side).

Now you're just playing games with definitions.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-21 02:49:28 UTC

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 6:30:46 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 5:07:47 PM UTC-4, David

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 4:17:30 PM UTC-4, Lynn
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least
an attempt at

an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting.
Granted the biology and physics are more than a little
dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it
claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you
to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between
those is very vague and wavy.)

-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced
by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the
Pern books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Yes there is, but that is single combat, almost ritual combat,
not melee combat (aka multiple fighters on each side).

Now you're just playing games with definitions.
--
Terry Austin

Various online definitions:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/melee
1. a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people.
2. confusion; turmoil; jumble:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/melee
a confused struggle; especially : a hand-to-hand fight among several people

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/melee
a situation that is confused and not under control, esp. a fight involving a number of people:

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/melee
1. A confused struggle or fight at close quarters. See Synonyms at brawl.
2. A confused tumultuous mingling, as of a crowd: the rush-hour melee.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/melee
A melee is a noisy free-for-all or rowdy fight — a no holds barred, battle royal, if you will.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/melee
1. A confused fight or scuffle.
1.1 A confused crowd of people.
from French mêlée, from an Old French variant of meslee (see medley).

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/melee
A melee is a noisy, confusing fight between the people in a crowd

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/melee
1. a noisy confused fight involving a lot of people
2. a large confused group of people or things

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee
Melee (/ˈmeɪleɪ/ or /ˈmɛleɪ/, French: mêlée [mɛle]) or pell-mell battle generally refers to disorganized close combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts

I don't think that I am "just playing games with definitions". Rather, I am using them accurately. I have always heard and used melee to refer to combat involving multiple antagonists, and given the above I do not think that a 1-on-1 knife fight can be described as a melee. If by "melee" was meant "hand-to-hand" combat, then that is hardly a distinguishing difference between science fiction and fantasy, and in any case is as likely in SF with a pre-industrial setting as in fantasy. Also, how many hand-to-hand combats did Captain Kirk engage in? Or Kimball Kinnison?

-DES

Ninapenda Jibini

2018-08-21 05:18:59 UTC

However elaborate the rules, it's still a game.

I'm taking that to mean you have nothing further to say. And all
you ever had to say was "I will be rude to anyone who does not
accept my opinion as absolute, inviolable fact."

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 10:18:42 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 6:30:46 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 5:07:47 PM UTC-4, David

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 4:17:30 PM UTC-4, Lynn
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at
least an attempt at

an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting.
Granted the biology and physics are more than a little
dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it
claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to
you to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border
between those is very vague and wavy.)

-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements
of high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously
influenced by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went
on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the
Pern books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of
one, granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Yes there is, but that is single combat, almost ritual
combat, not melee combat (aka multiple fighters on each
side).

Now you're just playing games with definitions.
--
Terry Austin

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/melee
1. a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/melee
a confused struggle; especially : a hand-to-hand fight among
several people
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/melee
a situation that is confused and not under control, esp. a fight
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/melee
1. A confused struggle or fight at close quarters. See Synonyms
at brawl. 2. A confused tumultuous mingling, as of a crowd: the
rush-hour melee.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/melee
A melee is a noisy free-for-all or rowdy fight â a no holds
barred, battle royal, if you will.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/melee
1. A confused fight or scuffle.
1.1 A confused crowd of people.
from French mÃªlÃ©e, from an Old French variant of meslee (see
medley).
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/melee
A melee is a noisy, confusing fight between the people in a
crowd
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/melee
1. a noisy confused fight involving a lot of people
2. a large confused group of people or things
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee
Melee (/ËmeÉªleÉª/ or /ËmÉleÉª/, French: mÃªlÃ©e [mÉle]) or
pell-mell battle generally refers to disorganized close combat
in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central
control once it starts
I don't think that I am "just playing games with definitions".
Rather, I am using them accurately. I have always heard and used
melee to refer to combat involving multiple antagonists, and
given the above I do not think that a 1-on-1 knife fight can be
described as a melee. If by "melee" was meant "hand-to-hand"
combat, then that is hardly a distinguishing difference between
science fiction and fantasy, and in any case is as likely in SF
with a pre-industrial setting as in fantasy. Also, how many
hand-to-hand combats did Captain Kirk engage in? Or Kimball
Kinnison?
-DES

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

J. Clarke

2018-08-21 02:20:33 UTC

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-b
ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of
those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not
read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science
Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories
definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The
Pit and t

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an
attempt at

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by
Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern
books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Then there was Dune . . .

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-21 03:21:06 UTC

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 6:30:46 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-b
ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of
those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not
read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science
Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories
definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The
Pit and t

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an
attempt at

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by
Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern
books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?
--
Terry Austin

Yes there is, but that is single combat, almost ritual combat, not

melee combat (aka multiple fighters on each side). I will grant that
this kind of kife fight, basically a formal duel, is more common in
fantasy than SF (although RAH's _Beyond This Horizion_ comes to mind)
but again that goes with the pre-industral tech level, IMO.
Then there was Dune . . .

-DES

Dumerest was a knife fighter both in the arena and on his own time.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Robert Woodward

2018-08-21 04:32:59 UTC

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-b
ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of
those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not
read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science
Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories
definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The
Pit and t

Post by d***@gmail.com
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an
attempt at

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by
Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern
books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?

IIRC, there is a knife fight in each of the first 3 books (F'lar vs 3
different antagonists).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2018-08-21 15:47:24 UTC

Post by Robert Woodward

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 5:07:47 PM UTC-4, David

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 4:17:30 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 3:43:46 PM UTC-4, Lynn

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantas
y-b ooks-on-g

oodreads

Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two
of those tha

t I

Post by Lynn McGuire
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have
not read in mo

vies.

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_

or _The Green mile_ fantasy.

-DES

Science Fiction an

Post by Lynn McGuire
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the
most excelle

Post by Lynn McGuire
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the
written version.

And I would definitely call Pern Science Fiction, or
arguably Science fantasy. It is surely rather soft SF, but
there are spaceships (or were in its backstory), the
"special abilities" are presented as psionics and as being
repeatably rule-bound, albiet not fully understood by the
characters. If this is fantasy, so are the Telzy stories by
Schmitz. Indeed, so is _A Gift from Earth_ by Niven (Plateau
Eyes).

-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern
stories definitely cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's
"The Pit and t

he Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a
classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is
that the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the
actions of human beings, with no supernatural abilities or
forces invoked. But its been many years since I read it, and
i may be forgetting things.

In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least
an attempt at

an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting.
Granted the biology and physics are more than a little
dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it
claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you
to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between
those is very vague and wavy.)

-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of
high fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced
by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the
Pern books, particularly not in the early ones.

Isn't there a knife fight in the first book? Not much of one,
granted, but a knife fight nonetheless?

IIRC, there is a knife fight in each of the first 3 books (F'lar
vs 3 different antagonists).

I'll take your word for it. It's been many years since I've read
any Pern books.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

David Johnston

2018-08-21 14:32:37 UTC

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either _Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that the horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of human beings, with no supernatural abilities or forces invoked. But its been many years since I read it, and i may be forgetting things.
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an attempt at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting. Granted the biology and physics are more than a little dubious, but I'm willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to be, rather than fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy rather than SF? (Granted, the border between those is very vague and wavy.)
-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of high
fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern books, particularly not in the early ones. There was what I might call melee pest extermination.

They had knife duels.

Dimensional Traveler

2018-08-21 15:28:08 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
"Top 50 Fantasy Books on Goodreads" by Hayley
https://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/1344-top-50-fantasy-books-on-goodreads
I have read eight of the list of 50. I have seen two of those
that I
read in movies. I have seen two others that I have not read in
movies.
Lynn

I have read 14 of these, and i would not call either
_Dragonflight_ or _The Green mile_ fantasy.
-DES

Why not, given that SFF has two major categories: Science Fiction and
Fantasy ? BTW, I have read _DragonFlight_ and seen the most
excellent
movie _The Green Mile_. Both are fantasy for me.
Lynn

I would call _The Green Mile_, horror, at least the written
version. And I would definitely call Pern Science Fiction, or
arguably Science fantasy. It is surely rather soft SF, but there
are spaceships (or were in its backstory), the "special abilities"
are presented as psionics and as being repeatably rule-bound,
albiet not fully understood by the characters. If this is fantasy,
so are the Telzy stories by Schmitz. Indeed, so is _A Gift from
Earth_ by Niven (Plateau Eyes).
-DES

I would call horror a subset of fantasy. The Pern stories definitely
cross into both major areas.
Lynn

There is such a thing as non-supernatural horror. Poe's "The Pit
and the Pendulum" includes no fantasy elements at all, but is a
classic of horror. So is King's "Apt Pupil". My memory is that the
horror in _The Green Mile_ came largely from the actions of human
beings, with no supernatural abilities or forces invoked. But its
been many years since I read it, and i may be forgetting things.
In the Pern stories, my memory is that there was at least an attempt
at an SFnal explanation for all the elements of the setting. Granted
the biology and physics are more than a little dubious, but I'm
willing to treat it as the soft SF it claims to be, rather than
fantasy. What elements seem to you to be fantasy rather than SF?
(Granted, the border between those is very vague and wavy.)
-DES

Dragons, feudalism and melee combat are typical elements of high
fantasy. Dragonflight was pretty obviously influenced by Witch World at
the start, although she found her own voice as she went on.

To the best of my memory there was no melee COMBAT in the Pern books,
particularly not in the early ones. There was what I might call melee
pest extermination.

They had knife duels.

I don't see duels as "melee combat".

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

Robert Carnegie

2018-08-21 21:29:26 UTC