[tor] Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies
https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gilligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/

I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently. So I am 1
for 4.

Lynn

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2020-05-22 18:48:39 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gilligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently. So I am 1
for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

By the time a British naval officer comes ashore, the island
is a smouldering wasteland. Three of the children are dead.
"I should have thought," the officer says, "that a pack of
British boys would have been able to put up a better show
than that." At this, Ralph bursts into tears. "Ralph wept
for the end of innocence," we read, and for "the darkness
of man's heart".

Golding had a masterful ability to portray the darkest
depths of mankind

This story never happened. An English schoolmaster, William
Golding, made up this story in 1951 -- his novel Lord of
the Flies would sell tens of millions of copies, be translated
into more than 30 languages and hailed as one of the classics
of the 20th century. In hindsight, the secret to the book's
success is clear. Golding had a masterful ability to portray
the darkest depths of mankind. Of course, he had the zeitgeist
of the 1960s on his side, when a new generation was questioning
its parents about the atrocities of the second world war.
Had Auschwitz been an anomaly, they wanted to know, or is
there a Nazi hiding in each of us?

I first read Lord of the Flies as a teenager. I remember
feeling disillusioned afterwards, but not for a second did
I think to doubt Golding's view of human nature. That didn't
happen until years later when I began delving into the
author's life. I learned what an unhappy individual he had
been: an alcoholic, prone to depression. "I have always
understood the Nazis," Golding confessed, "because I am of
that sort by nature." And it was "partly out of that sad
self-knowledge" that he wrote Lord of the Flies.

I began to wonder: had anyone ever studied what real children
would do if they found themselves alone on a deserted island?
I wrote an article on the subject, in which I compared Lord
of the Flies to modern scientific insights and concluded
that, in all probability, kids would act very differently.
Readers responded sceptically. All my examples concerned
kids at home, at school, or at summer camp. Thus began my
quest for a real-life Lord of the Flies. After trawling the
web for a while, I came across an obscure blog that told
an arresting story: "One day, in 1977, six boys set out
from Tonga on a fishing trip ... Caught in a huge storm,
the boys were shipwrecked on a deserted island. What do
they do, this little tribe? They made a pact never to
quarrel."

...
...

--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Titus G

2020-05-22 21:15:50 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gilligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently. So I am 1
for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

The major difference appears to be that the varied group of fictional
English characters were not skilled nor prepared for desert island life,
(nor even adult life), unlike the group of Tongan friends whose
upbringing more probably prepared them for such an adventure and whose
friendship made the group stable to begin with. Still, an interesting
and enjoyable article.

Peter Trei

2020-05-23 03:24:44 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gilligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently. So I am 1
for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

They were also teenagers, older than Goulding's kids.

Nonetheless, I expect that real children would not have had the social breakdown seen in the
book. Golding was writing when the 'killer ape' hypothesis of human evolution was ascendent,
and was writing a dystopian story about humanity, writ small.

In real life disasters,we've seen again and again that most people in fact act in a far more
pro social manner.

pt

David Johnston

2020-05-23 03:31:29 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gilligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently. So I am 1
for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

They were also teenagers, older than Goulding's kids.
Nonetheless, I expect that real children would not have had the social breakdown seen in the
book.

At least not that fast.

h***@gmail.com

2020-05-24 05:16:36 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gilligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently. So I am 1
for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-for-15-months

They were also teenagers, older than Goulding's kids.
Nonetheless, I expect that real children would not have had the social breakdown seen in the
book. Golding was writing when the 'killer ape' hypothesis of human evolution was ascendent,
and was writing a dystopian story about humanity, writ small.
In real life disasters,we've seen again and again that most people in fact act in a far more
pro social manner.

There's a huge question on what Golding was actually commenting on, was it colonialism, the english public school environment (which was extremely toxic) or human nature in general?

Ninapenda Jibini

2020-05-23 20:21:16 UTC

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gi
lligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently.
So I am 1 for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord
-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-
for-15-months

The major difference appears to be that the varied group of
fictional English characters were not skilled nor prepared for
desert island life, (nor even adult life), unlike the group of
Tongan friends whose upbringing more probably prepared them for
such an adventure and whose friendship made the group stable to
begin with. Still, an interesting and enjoyable article.

The major difference is that one is how real life people acted, and
the other is the work of a fiction writer who was writing a
dystopic story about how evil people are.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-05-23 21:30:11 UTC

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gi
lligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently.
So I am 1 for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord
-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-
for-15-months

The major difference appears to be that the varied group of
fictional English characters were not skilled nor prepared for
desert island life, (nor even adult life), unlike the group of
Tongan friends whose upbringing more probably prepared them for
such an adventure and whose friendship made the group stable to
begin with. Still, an interesting and enjoyable article.

The major difference is that one is how real life people acted, and
the other is the work of a fiction writer who was writing a
dystopic story about how evil people are.

I am now reminded of Balmer and Wylie's _When Worlds Collide._
Philip Wylie was, well, Philip Wylie, who like the above, wanted
to write distopic stories about how evil people are. So he
looked up Edwin Balmer, a genuine astronomer, and (I assume)
asked him, "How can I destroy the whole Earth in such a way that
people will know for months or years that it will be destroyed,
and only a select few are gong to survive, while the rest of
humanity descends into blood-lust and mayhem?" And Balmer said,
"Well, hmmm, you could do *this*, though it's really unlikely
that it would work that way," and Wylie said, "Unlikely is good
enough for me," and set to work.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Quadibloc

2020-05-24 14:11:39 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I am now reminded of Balmer and Wylie's _When Worlds Collide._
Philip Wylie was, well, Philip Wylie, who like the above, wanted
to write distopic stories about how evil people are.

Having read "Generation of Vipers", I at least have context with which to
understand the statement that Philip Wylie was Philip Wylie.

However, I thought the book "When Worlds Collide" was about the heroic effort to
send some people to the new planet in order to preserve the human race, and not
about any disorder resulting from the panic outside due to everyone else's
impending doom.

John Savard

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-05-24 15:19:13 UTC

Post by Quadibloc

Having read "Generation of Vipers", I at least have context with which to
understand the statement that Philip Wylie was Philip Wylie.
However, I thought the book "When Worlds Collide" was about the heroic effort to
send some people to the new planet in order to preserve the human race, and not
about any disorder resulting from the panic outside due to everyone else's
impending doom.

Have you read it recently?

Wylie allowed a few people to escape in order to arouse the rest
of the population to murderous frenzy and to attempt either to
usurp or destroy the escaping spaceship, whichever was easier.

Also, there's a token woman in the story who is courted by a
pilot and a stockbroker. The stockbroker gets the girl. (Note:
in the George Pal movie, the pilot got the girl, and the
stockbroker was a good sport about it.)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Budh

2020-06-01 07:14:15 UTC

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by James Nicoll
Four SF Stories That Are More Gilligan's Island Than Lord of the Flies

https://www.tor.com/2020/05/22/four-sf-stories-that-are-more-gi
lligans-island-than-lord-of-the-flies/
I liked "Tunnel in the Sky" very much and reread it recently.
So I am 1 for 4.
Lynn

Maybe it's natural to be more Gilligan than otherwise..
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/09/the-real-lord
-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-shipwrecked-
for-15-months

The major difference appears to be that the varied group of
fictional English characters were not skilled nor prepared for
desert island life, (nor even adult life), unlike the group of
Tongan friends whose upbringing more probably prepared them for
such an adventure and whose friendship made the group stable to
begin with. Still, an interesting and enjoyable article.

The major difference is that one is how real life people acted, and
the other is the work of a fiction writer who was writing a
dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with similar beliefs from an Island community where cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was more important than competition for status and power in a huge oligarchic group of strangers.
Given the current intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from there co-operating?
What are the chances of a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?
But I hope Peter Trei's upthread opinion is the reality.

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-01 14:49:18 UTC

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people acted, and
the other is the work of a fiction writer who was writing a
dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with similar
beliefs from an Island community where cooperation for survival in a
small tribal community was more important than competition for status
and power in a huge oligarchic group of strangers.
Given the current intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are
the chances of a random group from there co-operating?
What are the chances of a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on that
very concept?

Post by Budh
But I hope Peter Trei's upthread opinion is the reality.

Me too.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Peter Trei

2020-06-01 16:19:32 UTC

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people acted, and
the other is the work of a fiction writer who was writing a
dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with similar
beliefs from an Island community where cooperation for survival in a
small tribal community was more important than competition for status
and power in a huge oligarchic group of strangers.
Given the current intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are
the chances of a random group from there co-operating?
What are the chances of a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on that
very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting among the participants.
They are required to betray each other as part of the game.

Post by Budh
But I hope Peter Trei's upthread opinion is the reality.

Me too.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Scott Lurndal

2020-06-01 17:58:10 UTC

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people acted, and
the other is the work of a fiction writer who was writing a
dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with similar
beliefs from an Island community where cooperation for survival in a
small tribal community was more important than competition for status
and power in a huge oligarchic group of strangers.
Given the current intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are
the chances of a random group from there co-operating?
What are the chances of a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on that
very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting among the participants.
They are required to betray each other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on the Prisoners
Dilemma.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-01 18:09:18 UTC

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with
similar beliefs from an Island community where cooperation
for survival in a small tribal community was more important
than competition for status and power in a huge oligarchic
group of strangers. Given the current intransigent diversity
in the USA on such matters as pandemic approach, racism,
Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are the chances of a
random group from there co-operating? What are the chances of
a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on the
Prisoners Dilemma.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television, in a game
show format (which is how they get away with not paying the actors
the usual amount required by the unions).

What I'd much rather see is Survivor: Turkish Prison, where you
audition for show by being arrested for drug smuggling, and every
week the audience votes somneone in front of a firing squad.

You know as well as I do there'd no lack of contestants.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Mike Van Pelt

2020-06-01 18:22:44 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television,

"Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-01 18:44:02 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television,

"Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

Indeed. It's an attempt on the part of Hollywood to convince the
audience that they're watching a documentary, without actually
producing a documentary.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Alan Baker

2020-06-01 19:01:43 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television,

"Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

Indeed. It's an attempt on the part of Hollywood to convince the
audience that they're watching a documentary, without actually
producing a documentary.

It is literally nothing of the kind.

h***@gmail.com

2020-06-02 04:11:47 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television,

"Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

Indeed. It's an attempt on the part of Hollywood to convince the
audience that they're watching a documentary, without actually
producing a documentary.

let's just say that

is not a typical wild pig in Australia...
(clip includes reality tv contestants killing a pig, which may have been drugged first)

Gary R. Schmidt

2020-06-02 07:54:27 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television,

"Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

Indeed. It's an attempt on the part of Hollywood to convince the
audience that they're watching a documentary, without actually
producing a documentary.

let's just say that
http://youtu.be/KFMojOw85rY
is not a typical wild pig in Australia...
(clip includes reality tv contestants killing a pig, which may have been drugged first)

Yeah, nah, this's a typical Aussie Wild Pig:

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...

Mike Van Pelt

2020-06-02 22:58:42 UTC

Post by h***@gmail.com
let's just say that
http://youtu.be/KFMojOw85rY
is not a typical wild pig in Australia...
(clip includes reality tv contestants killing a pig, which may have

been drugged first)
Yeah, nah, this's a typical Aussie Wild Pig: http://youtu.be/OJ1Gs4k-0ho

"Video not available", but plugging in a search for
"austrailian wild pig" brings up ....

holy... deleted... expletives...

Huge razor-sharp tusks. I've seen tusks on wild
boars before, and these are much bigger.

Probably venomous, too, because Australia.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

Kevrob

2020-06-02 08:10:21 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

It's scripted drama, like all other reality television,

"Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

Indeed. It's an attempt on the part of Hollywood to convince the
audience that they're watching a documentary, without actually
producing a documentary.

let's just say that
http://youtu.be/KFMojOw85rY
is not a typical wild pig in Australia...
(clip includes reality tv contestants killing a pig, which may have been drugged first)

I never got the "reality TV" bug, as I was inoculated by the
1976 film, "Network."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_(1976_film)#Legacy

Those shows ate the TV schedule in 2008, during the Writers Guild
strike. The scripted elements were often the work of "producers,"
or lower-ranked assistants not credited as writers. Mark Evanier
explained that this trick is Older Than Survivor in his "mail bag"
blog post of 4 Oct, 2007.

https://www.newsfromme.com/2007/10/page/7/ or

https://web.archive.org/web/20071221080840/http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2007_10_14.html#014180

Anybody remember the short-lived, 45-minute, 1969
drama on ABC, "The New People?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_People

Kevin R

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-01 18:30:17 UTC

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with
similar beliefs from an Island community where cooperation
for survival in a small tribal community was more important
than competition for status and power in a huge oligarchic
group of strangers. Given the current intransigent diversity
in the USA on such matters as pandemic approach, racism,
Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are the chances of a
random group from there co-operating? What are the chances of
a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on the
Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-01 18:44:57 UTC

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in a
huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random group
from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .

Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Paul S Person

2020-06-02 16:39:01 UTC

On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in a
huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random group
from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger Games,
either in an actual arena or on TV.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-02 17:08:48 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life
people acted, and the other is the work of a fiction
writer who was writing a dystopic story about how evil
people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in a
huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based
on that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create
infighting among the participants. They are required to
betray each other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger
Games, either in an actual arena or on TV.

Given that Italy has honest to goodness food riots during the
lockdown, they kinda did.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-02 17:31:42 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in a
huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random group
from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger Games,
either in an actual arena or on TV.

Bite your tongue, and hope nobody working in TV reads USENET.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-02 20:06:39 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life
people acted, and the other is the work of a fiction
writer who was writing a dystopic story about how evil
people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in
a huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based
on that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create
infighting among the participants. They are required to
betray each other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger
Games, either in an actual arena or on TV.

Bite your tongue, and hope nobody working in TV reads USENET.

Do you *really* believe that has never been pitched? In fact, I'll
bet somebody actually owns the rights.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-02 20:22:59 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life
people acted, and the other is the work of a fiction
writer who was writing a dystopic story about how evil
people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in
a huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based
on that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create
infighting among the participants. They are required to
betray each other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger
Games, either in an actual arena or on TV.

Bite your tongue, and hope nobody working in TV reads USENET.

Do you *really* believe that has never been pitched? In fact, I'll
bet somebody actually owns the rights.

Or several somebodies? In which case they can fight it out,
preferably on a distant island.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-02 21:18:38 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life
people acted, and the other is the work of a fiction
writer who was writing a dystopic story about how
evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of
friends with similar beliefs from an Island community
where cooperation for survival in a small tribal
community was more important than competition for
status and power in a huge oligarchic group of
strangers. Given the current intransigent diversity in
the USA on such matters as pandemic approach, racism,
Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are the
chances of a random group from there co-operating?
What are the chances of a random group from this
newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series
based on that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create
infighting among the participants. They are required to
betray each other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play
on the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see
those bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger
Games, either in an actual arena or on TV.

Bite your tongue, and hope nobody working in TV reads USENET.

Do you *really* believe that has never been pitched? In fact,
I'll bet somebody actually owns the rights.

Or several somebodies? In which case they can fight it out,
preferably on a distant island.

Maybe we need a reality show - or better yet, an actual
documentary - in which various reality TV produces decide who gets
to produce their show through gladitorial combat. Survivor gets a
contract for a number of seasons based on the ratings, including
possibly none.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Paul S Person

2020-06-03 16:26:59 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:44:57 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life
people acted, and the other is the work of a fiction
writer who was writing a dystopic story about how evil
people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in
a huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based
on that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create
infighting among the participants. They are required to
betray each other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

Whom count me not among.

It only takes a dozen or so per season . . .
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger
Games, either in an actual arena or on TV.

Bite your tongue, and hope nobody working in TV reads USENET.

Do you *really* believe that has never been pitched? In fact, I'll
bet somebody actually owns the rights.

Or several somebodies? In which case they can fight it out,
preferably on a distant island.

I wonder what rights Lion's Gate licensed from the author.

I would expect one or the other to hold the rights to such a thing.

And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Lawrence Watt-Evans

2020-06-04 03:31:01 UTC

On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...

They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.

(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-04 04:44:16 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Lawrence Watt-Evans

2020-06-04 05:43:32 UTC

On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-04 07:55:02 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

:)

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 15:39:26 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of course),
and the forty-plus page option contract includes details on
how much they have to pay me not just for the theoretical
feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

Or a competent agent.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-04 17:03:44 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of course),
and the forty-plus page option contract includes details on
how much they have to pay me not just for the theoretical
feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

Or a competent agent.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 17:23:45 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular
films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of
course), and the forty-plus page option contract includes
details on how much they have to pay me not just for the
theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take
off, they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the
merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

Or a competent agent.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Only to an outsider. It's a very different job. Nobody with any
brains would *ever* use a lawyer as an agent, or an agent as a
lawyer. Both are well regulated professions for a reason.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-04 21:20:00 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular
films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of
course), and the forty-plus page option contract includes
details on how much they have to pay me not just for the
theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take
off, they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the
merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

Or a competent agent.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Only to an outsider. It's a very different job. Nobody with any
brains would *ever* use a lawyer as an agent, or an agent as a
lawyer. Both are well regulated professions for a reason.

In this narrow instance either one would have been negotiating on Mr.
Watt-Evans' behalf. (There is also the possibility that Mr. Watt-Evans
or the agent employed a lawyer to assist.)

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 23:15:56 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular
films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of
course), and the forty-plus page option contract includes
details on how much they have to pay me not just for the
theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series
based on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each
episode, each spin-off series, each film based on an
episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take
off, they know who has the rights to every permutation
and derivative work they could think of. And they
thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the
merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

Or a competent agent.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Only to an outsider. It's a very different job. Nobody with any
brains would *ever* use a lawyer as an agent, or an agent as a
lawyer. Both are well regulated professions for a reason.

In this narrow instance either one would have been negotiating
on Mr. Watt-Evans' behalf.

Indeed, but as a general rule, it's safe to assume that only one
would actually know what he was doing.

Post by Dimensional Traveler
(There is also the possibility that
Mr. Watt-Evans or the agent employed a lawyer to assist.)

I suspect lawyers are consulted as part of the process, the the job
of representing talent is teh job of the agent, and unless the
lawyer is *also* an agent, he won't have a clue what normal
business practices are in Hollywood, and how to short circuit them
so his client only gets screwed a lot.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Lawrence Watt-Evans

2020-06-05 23:33:01 UTC

On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 14:20:00 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular
films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of
course), and the forty-plus page option contract includes
details on how much they have to pay me not just for the
theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take
off, they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the
merchandising rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

OOooooooo! A pitbull lawyer!

Or a competent agent.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Only to an outsider. It's a very different job. Nobody with any
brains would *ever* use a lawyer as an agent, or an agent as a
lawyer. Both are well regulated professions for a reason.

In this narrow instance either one would have been negotiating on Mr.
Watt-Evans' behalf. (There is also the possibility that Mr. Watt-Evans
or the agent employed a lawyer to assist.)

Well, I didn't, but I'm pretty sure the agency that handled the deal
has at least one on retainer.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 15:38:56 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of course),
and the forty-plus page option contract includes details on
how much they have to pay me not just for the theoretical
feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

If it's a percentage of the net, there will never be a single penny
of profit, no matter how much revenue there is.

Which your agent was likely aware of.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Paul S Person

2020-06-04 16:33:41 UTC

On Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:38:56 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of course),
and the forty-plus page option contract includes details on
how much they have to pay me not just for the theoretical
feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

If it's a percentage of the net, there will never be a single penny
of profit, no matter how much revenue there is.
Which your agent was likely aware of.

The Tolkien Estate sued to block release of the /Hobbit/ films based
on not receiving any money from the /LOTR/ films and associated
merchandise/prop show tours because of "Hollywood accounting
practices". I /think/ they won, in the sense of actually getting some
money -- but not, sadly, in the sense of preventing the /Hobbit/ films
being released.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 17:22:36 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:38:56 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 21:44:16 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of
course), and the forty-plus page option contract includes
details on how much they have to pay me not just for the
theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

Net or Gross?

Gross.

If it's a percentage of the net, there will never be a single
penny of profit, no matter how much revenue there is.
Which your agent was likely aware of.

The Tolkien Estate sued to block release of the /Hobbit/ films

No, they really didn't. They sued for more money over digital
rights (which is to say, games and other merchandising rights),
which weren't explicitly covered in the original 1969 contract
(obviously) nor in the 2010 regrant (where it probably should have
been).

Post by Paul S Person
based on not receiving any money from the /LOTR/ films and
associated merchandise/prop show tours because of "Hollywood
accounting practices". I /think/

I've never seen evidence of it.

Post by Paul S Person
they won,

Not in any court rulings. The Tolkien estate sued over digital
rights (they didn't like some Middle Earth themed online slot
machine game, apparently, or at least didn't like not getting a
cut), and Warner countersued for breach of contract. The estate
tried to get it tossed as a SLAPP suit, and the 9th Circuit ruled
in Warner's favor and allowed the countersuit (upholding the
district judge's ruling). In 2014, it was settled to the
satisfaction of both side with undisclosed terms that presumably
involve more money going to the estate that would have otherwise,
since Middle Earth themed games were release shortly thereafter.

Post by Paul S Person
in the sense of
actually getting some money -- but not, sadly, in the sense of
preventing the /Hobbit/ films being released.

There was never any attempt to do so. As usual, you're full of
shit.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

h***@gmail.com

2020-06-04 05:10:42 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that he'd got a breakdown of potential sequels
Morrell said "Sequel? How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies"
The agent's response is "By the time they've finished with it don't be surprised if it's a musical"

Paul S Person

2020-06-04 16:31:36 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

Wait long enough and it may become one, espectially if Disney gets
it's hooks into it.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Mike Van Pelt

2020-06-04 21:27:04 UTC

Post by h***@gmail.com
I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that he'd got

a breakdown of potential sequels

Post by h***@gmail.com
Morrell said "Sequel? How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies"
The agent's response is "By the time they've finished with it don't be

surprised if it's a musical"
Wait long enough and it may become one, espectially if Disney gets
it's hooks into it.

Getting a horrible thought about Rambo's singing and
dancing cartoon wolverine sidekick...

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston

Kevrob

2020-06-04 22:37:45 UTC

Post by h***@gmail.com
I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that he'd got

a breakdown of potential sequels

Post by h***@gmail.com
Morrell said "Sequel? How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies"
The agent's response is "By the time they've finished with it don't be

surprised if it's a musical"
Wait long enough and it may become one, espectially if Disney gets
it's hooks into it.

Getting a horrible thought about Rambo's singing and
dancing cartoon wolverine sidekick...
--

John Rambo was born in Arizona, and "First Blood" took place in
Kentucky, so I'd go with a wildcat. Disney, through Marvel,
already has a wolverine. :)

Kevin R

Dimensional Traveler

2020-06-04 23:32:21 UTC

Post by Kevrob

Post by h***@gmail.com
I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that he'd got

a breakdown of potential sequels

Post by h***@gmail.com
Morrell said "Sequel? How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies"
The agent's response is "By the time they've finished with it don't be

surprised if it's a musical"
Wait long enough and it may become one, espectially if Disney gets
it's hooks into it.

Getting a horrible thought about Rambo's singing and
dancing cartoon wolverine sidekick...
--

John Rambo was born in Arizona, and "First Blood" took place in
Kentucky, so I'd go with a wildcat. Disney, through Marvel,
already has a wolverine. :)

A badger would be a better fit, personality wise.

--
<to be filled in at a later date>

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-05 03:51:23 UTC

Post by h***@gmail.com
I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that he'd got

a breakdown of potential sequels

Post by h***@gmail.com
Morrell said "Sequel? How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies"
The agent's response is "By the time they've finished with it don't be

surprised if it's a musical"

Somebody once posted on this group (long years ago) about a novel
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro wrote that had Lorenzo dei Medici as a
character.

/e greps various directories

Here it is.

When she got to his assassination, her publisher rang and asked
"Why did you have to kill off that Lorenzo? He was the best character
you ever created."
Author: "I would have loved to keep him alive but unfortunately
history records that he died in the manner described in 1492."
long silence then
Publisher. "Huh - you mean he was *real*?"

Follow-ups revealed that it was one of her vampire novels, _The
Palace._ I have not read it; I don't do vampires.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 17:31:07 UTC

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 1:31:05 PM UTC+10, Lawrence

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature
film (which will probably never get made, of course), and the
forty-plus page option contract includes details on how much
they have to pay me not just for the theoretical feature, but
for each theatrical sequel, each straight-to-video sequel, each
episode of a TV series based on the movie or a sequel, each
rerun of each episode, each spin-off series, each film based on
an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that
he'd got a breakdown of potential sequels Morrell said "Sequel?
How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies" The agent's response is
"By the time they've finished with it don't be surprised if it's
a musical"

Farheneit 451 had a stage musical version. Written by Bradbury
himself. It was even produced. Once.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-04 18:12:29 UTC

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 1:31:05 PM UTC+10, Lawrence

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature
film (which will probably never get made, of course), and the
forty-plus page option contract includes details on how much
they have to pay me not just for the theoretical feature, but
for each theatrical sequel, each straight-to-video sequel, each
episode of a TV series based on the movie or a sequel, each
rerun of each episode, each spin-off series, each film based on
an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that
he'd got a breakdown of potential sequels Morrell said "Sequel?
How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies" The agent's response is
"By the time they've finished with it don't be surprised if it's
a musical"

Farheneit 451 had a stage musical version. Written by Bradbury
himself. It was even produced. Once.

Hmmm. Assuming the pandemic eventually winds down and we get to
hold conventions again, the concom might inquire about
performance rights. (Probably for a Worldcon, since with large
an attending population they'd have a good chance of finding
volunteers who can act.)

As all here probably know, Hal and I are on the committee for
DunDraCon, which is typically held over Presidents' Day weekend.
This year's con came off with only minor hitches. FOGCon, held
in early March, just squeaked through before the shutdown began
(though one of the GOHs had to cancel because in order to get to
California she would've had to fly, and she's about my age.)

Since then, we've been watching one con after another cancel.

If anyone is on a concom for something that hasn't been cancelled
yet, best to wait until the *hotel* cancels on *you* because the
state it's in is not yet allowing gatherings of howevermany
people. That way, it's an Act of God and you don't have to pay
cancellation fees.

The next DunDraCon being scheduled for next February 12-15, we
may have a chance of holding it as (approximately) usual. That's
why we keep looking at everybody else's cancellations.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 23:14:13 UTC

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 1:31:05 PM UTC+10, Lawrence

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/
popular. Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a
feature film (which will probably never get made, of course),
and the forty-plus page option contract includes details on
how much they have to pay me not just for the theoretical
feature, but for each theatrical sequel, each
straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based
on the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each
spin-off series, each film based on an episode of the TV
series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and
derivative work they could think of. And they thought of a
LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

I'm reminded of a story I've heard about David Morrell
His agent was negotiating the deal for Rambo and told him that
he'd got a breakdown of potential sequels Morrell said
"Sequel? How can there be a sequel? Rambo dies" The agent's
response is "By the time they've finished with it don't be
surprised if it's a musical"

Farheneit 451 had a stage musical version. Written by Bradbury
himself. It was even produced. Once.

I heard about it from Bradbury himself, at the shindig that the
Plantary Society did in Pasadena for the landing of the first of
the Spirit & Opportunity landers, many years ago. He insisted it
was a worthwhile piece of work, but did not indicate any desire
whatoever to ever see it produced again.

Apparently, it was . . . pretty bad.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-04 15:38:07 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature
film (which will probably never get made, of course), and the
forty-plus page option contract includes details on how much
they have to pay me not just for the theoretical feature, but
for each theatrical sequel, each straight-to-video sequel, each
episode of a TV series based on the movie or a sequel, each
rerun of each episode, each spin-off series, each film based on
an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and derivative
work they could think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

This is all the result of a century+ of very painful lessons.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Lawrence Watt-Evans

2020-06-05 23:30:35 UTC

On Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:38:07 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature
film (which will probably never get made, of course), and the
forty-plus page option contract includes details on how much
they have to pay me not just for the theoretical feature, but
for each theatrical sequel, each straight-to-video sequel, each
episode of a TV series based on the movie or a sequel, each
rerun of each episode, each spin-off series, each film based on
an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off,
they know who has the rights to every permutation and derivative
work they could think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising
rights.)

This is all the result of a century+ of very painful lessons.

Indeed.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-04 18:04:30 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course),...

Options on things that never got published/filmed/whatnot have
their uses. I sent in a portion-and-outline to a publisher, back
in the lower Pleistocene, and they optioned it for something like
$400. Then they never published it, but I still had the money,
with which I was able to buy a copy of _The Plan of St. Gall._

Now occasionally available, used, for $1500 to $2K.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Lawrence Watt-Evans

2020-06-05 23:37:00 UTC

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course),...

Options on things that never got published/filmed/whatnot have
their uses. I sent in a portion-and-outline to a publisher, back
in the lower Pleistocene, and they optioned it for something like
$400. Then they never published it, but I still had the money,
with which I was able to buy a copy of _The Plan of St. Gall._
Now occasionally available, used, for $1500 to $2K.

Oh, the option money more or less paid for moving from Maryland to
Washington; I was very pleased with the deal.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

Paul S Person

2020-06-06 16:30:14 UTC

On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 20:31:01 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:26:59 -0700, Paul S Person

Post by Paul S Person
And the movies, particularly the first one, were /very/ popular.
Entire TV series have been based on popular films.

Yeah. Warner Brothers optioned one of my stories for a feature film
(which will probably never get made, of course), and the forty-plus
page option contract includes details on how much they have to pay me
not just for the theoretical feature, but for each theatrical sequel,
each straight-to-video sequel, each episode of a TV series based on
the movie or a sequel, each rerun of each episode, each spin-off
series, each film based on an episode of the TV series...
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

That, of course, was what might be considered a "modern" contract.

When /The President's Analyst/ appeared on VHS, it had different music
[1] from the movie. Apparently, nobody had bothered to get the Home
Video Rights to the music when they got the rights for the film.

This, of course, is not surprising -- /The President's Analyst/ came
out in 1967, a decade or more before Home Video was even a concept.

The DVD took forever to appear -- but it had the original music.
Apparently, somebody had taken the trouble to track down the rights
holders and throw enough money at them to secure the Home Video (and
probably other) rights.

[1] "music" here refers to the /songs/ that the bands in the film
played; the background music was, AFAIK, not replaced. This means, for
example, that Coburn's gong action has /no relation at all/ to the
music heard on the VHS -- but does on the DVD (as it did in the film
when seen in a theater).

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Scott Lurndal

2020-06-08 14:59:33 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 03 Jun 2020 20:31:01 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
They have it all laid out in detail, so if it DOES take off, they know
who has the rights to every permutation and derivative work they could
think of. And they thought of a LOT.
(I think I even get one-tenth of 1% of the merchandising rights.)

That was also a problem for _WKRP in Cincinatti_, where the choice
of songs was important; the bland crap they substituted on the VHS
sucked rocks. Songs like Pink Floyd's _Dogs_ were replaced with
totally unsuitable (for the show and plot) mush.

A later DVD release restored the original songs for all but the first
season.

Bice

2020-06-09 11:53:07 UTC

Post by Paul S Person
When /The President's Analyst/ appeared on VHS, it had different music
[1] from the movie. Apparently, nobody had bothered to get the Home
Video Rights to the music when they got the rights for the film.

That was also a problem for _WKRP in Cincinatti_, where the choice
of songs was important; the bland crap they substituted on the VHS
sucked rocks. Songs like Pink Floyd's _Dogs_ were replaced with
totally unsuitable (for the show and plot) mush.
A later DVD release restored the original songs for all but the first
season.

I recently learned that the movie "Where the Buffalo Roam" (loosely
based on Hunter S. Thompson's writings) had most of the music removed
due to rights issues when it was released on DVD. I've watched that
DVD about a dozen times, but have never seen the original theatrical
version. If I ever do get my hands on the original, it'll probably
sound wrong to me. I'm wondering if there's more Neil Young music in
the original, because his name is listed prominently in the opening
credits, but he only shows up a couple times on the DVD soundtrack.

-- Bob

Paul S Person

2020-06-09 16:43:12 UTC

Post by Bice

That was also a problem for _WKRP in Cincinatti_, where the choice
of songs was important; the bland crap they substituted on the VHS
sucked rocks. Songs like Pink Floyd's _Dogs_ were replaced with
totally unsuitable (for the show and plot) mush.
A later DVD release restored the original songs for all but the first
season.

I never saw it -- but IMDb
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081748/soundtrack?ref_=tt_ql_trv_7
does have a list of songs that are probably from the actual film.

Something similar happened when I replaced by VHS of the original
/Night of the Living Dead/ (the last of at least three which was the
first where the film actually ended before the tape did -- the others
were done by idiots who used a taped timed for extra-long play and
then recorded it at long play [actually, I think "extended play", but
I don't recall what the extra-extended version was called], so the
tape ended before the movie did) and found it a very special edition
touting the 2000 version. Which takes some explaining, to understand
why it sucks.

The two-disc set also included a 1999 version. This was an absolutely
pristine frame-by-frame-identical-to-the-original image combined with
a written score based on the cues used in the original film. This
works very well; in face, until I investigated the "special" features,
I didn't even notice the difference -- for the 1999 version.

This was done, of course, to prepare for the 2000 version, which won
many awards. Well, some awards anyway. In Europe, anyway.

The 2000 version included additional footage with new characters and
new zombies. It one awards because it was visually identical with the
original (ie, both sets of frames were squeaky-clean) and changed the
story a bit. To be fair, this /was/ an impressive technical
achievement. But this is a perfect illustration of how idiotic the art
film people are, because it used /the exact same soundtrack/ as the
1999 version, which meant that /for each frame of new stuff, a frame
of old stuff had to be removed/. Which meant that the sound track
which, like the original, was very much designed to support the action
on-screen, was now out of sync with that action. And large pieces of
the original were missing. Apparently the award-makers were too drunk
to notice this small detail. Or perhaps they no longer actually
remembered the original. Or had never seen it.

Of course, it isn't very hard to tell old and new apart, since they
have completely different casts.

To bring this back to your point: I am now so used to the composed
score used in the 1999 version (the only one I watch, needless to say)
that I would probably find the original a bit ... inferior.

--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

pyotr filipivich

2020-06-15 00:53:04 UTC

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Survivor: Baffin Island would be amusing, too. Let's see those
bikinis now!

Actually, I'm surprised nobody has put on a real-life Hunger Games,
either in an actual arena or on TV.

Bite your tongue, and hope nobody working in TV reads USENET.

The National Pastime, by Norman Spinrad

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Magewolf

2020-06-02 16:31:33 UTC

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with
similar beliefs from an Island community where cooperation
for survival in a small tribal community was more important
than competition for status and power in a huge oligarchic
group of strangers. Given the current intransigent diversity
in the USA on such matters as pandemic approach, racism,
Climate Change, et al ad infinitum, what are the chances of a
random group from there co-operating? What are the chances of
a random group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on the
Prisoners Dilemma.

I watched about 20 minutes of the first episode and turned it off. At
the time I said I would watch it when they just dropped the contestants
off on an island with scattered food and weapon caches and the last one
alive or the beneficiary of the last one to die won.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-02 17:06:33 UTC

Post by Magewolf

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in a
huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random group
from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each
other as part of the game.

While I never watched it, I always thought it was a play on
the Prisoners Dilemma.

I watched about 20 minutes of the first episode and turned it
off.

I watched the ads and never turned it on, knowing exactly what it
woudl be like. I was not wrong.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-01 18:07:17 UTC

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:00:03 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who was
writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with
similar beliefs from an Island community where cooperation for
survival in a small tribal community was more important than
competition for status and power in a huge oligarchic group of
strangers. Given the current intransigent diversity in the USA
on such matters as pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change,
et al ad infinitum, what are the chances of a random group
from there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

there isn't a single reality TV show on the air that doesn't list
script writers in the credits (beacuse the unions force them to).
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

h***@gmail.com

2020-06-02 04:07:56 UTC

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who was
writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends with
similar beliefs from an Island community where cooperation for
survival in a small tribal community was more important than
competition for status and power in a huge oligarchic group of
strangers. Given the current intransigent diversity in the USA
on such matters as pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change,
et al ad infinitum, what are the chances of a random group
from there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each other
as part of the game.

there isn't a single reality TV show on the air that doesn't list
script writers in the credits (beacuse the unions force them to).

But who do the script writers write a script for?
The narration or the contestants?

Checking at imdb the writing credits are 535 episodes for Charlie Parsons (the creator) and 12 other credits between 5 people
And the creator has done other Survivor shows as well (how much he's been involved with them I'm not sure, he's listed as the only writer for Australian Survivor with 82 episodes)

That's a tiny pool compared to most shows, hell Babylon 5 which is about as close as there's ever been to a one man run show has 111 writing credits for J. Michael Straczynski and 20 other writing credits between 10 people - including Harlan Ellion, Neil Gaiman, and David Gerrold

The competition reality shows definitely cut and slant their shows to make a narrative (the people behind Apprentice have stated that they did their best to cut episodes so that Trump's decision on who to fire would make some kind of sense) but that's different from everything being scripted

The "fly on the wall celebrity" shows do a lot of trimming and reshooting
Roseanne Barr was going to be in one but she quit when she was told "that was great, can you do it again but do this as well"

https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/reality-tv4.htm
has a discussion of some of what the shows do

while it's not a "fair and honest look at what actually happens" it's also not "just another scripted show"
(It's also quite cheap to make and in most places counts as local content where there are rules to try and keep a local tv industry going so you get a cheap show instead of having to come up with a fully scripted show, signed actors etc)

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2020-06-02 15:49:43 UTC

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 4:07:19 AM UTC+10, Jibini Kula

In article

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 08:21:18 UTC+12, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini
The major difference is that one is how real life people
acted, and the other is the work of a fiction writer who
was writing a dystopic story about how evil people are.

That goes without saying.
The real life people were a close knit group of friends
with similar beliefs from an Island community where
cooperation for survival in a small tribal community was
more important than competition for status and power in a
huge oligarchic group of strangers. Given the current
intransigent diversity in the USA on such matters as
pandemic approach, racism, Climate Change, et al ad
infinitum, what are the chances of a random group from
there co-operating? What are the chances of a random
group from this newsgroup co-operating?

Hasn't there been a succession of television series based on
that very concept?

No. Survivor is deliberately constructed to create infighting
among the participants. They are required to betray each
other as part of the game.

there isn't a single reality TV show on the air that doesn't
list script writers in the credits (beacuse the unions force
them to).

But who do the script writers write a script for?
The narration or the contestants?

Why do you think that's an "or" question.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

BCFD36

2020-06-02 22:03:05 UTC

[stuff deleted]

Post by h***@gmail.com
while it's not a "fair and honest look at what actually happens" it's also not "just another scripted show"
(It's also quite cheap to make and in most places counts as local content where there are rules to try and keep a local tv industry going so you get a cheap show instead of having to come up with a fully scripted show, signed actors etc)

We watched Survivor off and on for awhile, but not for a couple of
years. I had an office mate when the first season was on refuse to ever
watch it again after a truly reprehensible contestant won. He later went
to jail.

We watched The Amazing Race for awhile too. I found it entertaining. The
"trials" were genuinely hard. For most people anyway. But there was one
where you had to throw a lasso around a target. There were two brothers
(possibly twins but I don't remember for sure) that were professional
rodeo cowboys. The one that threw the lasso had to throw it twice. His
brother gave him no end of crap. (Can I say shit here, or would someone
get his/her panties in a bunch?) They seemed to be, or were at least
edited that way, perfect gentlemen. Much small versions of Gary Cooper
or Randalf Scott, "Yes Mam", "Yes Sir", stand up when a lady enters the
room. I liked them. Or at least the edited versions of them.

The only one I think is mostly if not entirely real is "The Deadliest
Catch". I don't know how you script 5-8 complete knot heads on a fishing
boat when they are trying to make a living working 20 hour ships in
rough seas. You definitely can't script the heart attack, the injuries,
and the guy that died. There isn't room for more than a camera man and
maybe a sound guy (but probably not).

Of course, I could be complete out to lunch here.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

Dorothy J Heydt

2020-06-01 18:29:39 UTC