[OT] Ban on Cousin Marriage made us WEIRD?

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html

Hm. I shall read this later when I'm properly awake. In the
meantime, I can only wish the Church had stuck to her guns during
the Renaissance. Search the Hapsburgs, and particularly the
Infanta Margarita (the one in the painting and the Ravel Pavane
for a Dead Princess), and Charles II of Spain.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

o***@gmail.com

2019-11-08 18:17:24 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........

The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT

....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

m***@sky.com

2019-11-08 19:36:29 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

I found the article relatively convincing, because they graphed characteristics of populations against exposure to canonical marriage laws and there seemed to be something going on. It also fits in with previous work - one complaint I have seen about this is that there is nothing new there.

If you don't like that theory, there is one recently published at https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1811/1811.04502.pdf claiming that the west was just lucky to be the birthplace of the industrial revolution, and by the way saying that diversity is wonderful.

J. Clarke

2019-11-08 22:42:27 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.

An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.

The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

o***@gmail.com

2019-11-09 00:41:58 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........

(heh,heh,heh)

J. Clarke

2019-11-09 01:12:59 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?

Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-09 15:09:31 UTC

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expresssion.

The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

J. Clarke

2019-11-09 17:30:50 UTC

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expresssion.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-10 00:47:29 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)

For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us. Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

I like the sparrow DNA one better.

J. Clarke

2019-11-10 01:41:07 UTC

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.

And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.

You are looking at the point but not seeing it.

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

So where did those messages come from?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.

What was described was something more complex.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.

Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-10 02:07:46 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.

And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.

You are looking at the point but not seeing it.

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

So where did those messages come from?

The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.

You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.

Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.

Pi is the wrong object for this.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.

Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.

You'd certainly put the message to the test.

Does it concern cat owners?

J. Clarke

2019-11-10 02:19:22 UTC

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.

And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.

You are looking at the point but not seeing it.

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

So where did those messages come from?

The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.

When done repeately using different algorithms written in different
programming languages by different mathematicians and running on
different hardware architectures? Repeatedly? So _every_ algorithm
we have for computing pi and e are flawed, in _exactly_ the same way?

Post by Robert Carnegie
You also can postulate mathematics in which numbers
aren't fixed. God seems to have a history of doing that,
such as when 5000 people suddenly need a meal. But then
what good is mathematics? And if God lies about numbers,
is that out of character?

Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.

Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?

Post by Robert Carnegie
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_?>
describes how to simply and precisely, but rather
inefficiently, calculate pi. It is straightforward
arithmetic and it only gives one answer. And it
doesn't involve God.

Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.

Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.

Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.

Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.

Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.

You'd certainly put the message to the test.

What test? Who said anything about a test?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-10 02:47:17 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.

And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.

You are looking at the point but not seeing it.

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

So where did those messages come from?

The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.

Details: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_π>

You would conclude that some power in this universe
detects that you are computing digits of pi and changes
the result that you get. Including the verification.

This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.

I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important. But it is amazing if something
is watching us closely enough to tell when that's what
we're doing.

Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.
Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?

Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.
Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.

Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.

The formula for pi does not even depend on the universe,
except as somewhere to write the answer down.

There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.

Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.

Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.

You'd certainly put the message to the test.

What test? Who said anything about a test?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?

J. Clarke

2019-11-10 03:05:36 UTC

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.

And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.

You are looking at the point but not seeing it.

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

So where did those messages come from?

The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.

Details: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_?>
You would conclude that some power in this universe
detects that you are computing digits of pi and changes
the result that you get. Including the verification.

Nope. Where did I assert that?

This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.

Or maybe humans are not perfect.

I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important.

It is not possible in this universe to know all the decimal digits of
pi. There are infinitely many of them and the universe is finite.
Eventually you'll run out of storage.

But it is amazing if something
is watching us closely enough to tell when that's what
we're doing.

Why would anything need to be watching?

You're still missing the point totally.

Wrong. Who said that numbers aren't "fixed"? I am not proposing that
pi tomorrow have a different value from pi today. I am proposing that
as we calculated additional digits these messages are discovered.
Or are you laboring under the misconception that the piddling 31
trillion digits we know are even scratching the surface of infinity?

Nobody said it gave more than one answer. You are making things up to
attack an argument that was not presented.
Now, run your simple calculation for a hundred trillion digits, a
hundred googol digits, a googolplex digits, how do you know that it
will not reveal the message in question?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh, and there are things that wouldn't work if
pi was not reliable.

Who asserted that pi was not reliable? Again you are making things
up. The messages are primordial. They have been there as long as the
universe has existed.

The formula for pi does not even depend on the universe,
except as somewhere to write the answer down.

Suppose that is the case, but the messages are still there. Now what?

There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Pi is the wrong object for this.

Pi is precisely the right object for this. You are just thinking on
too small a scale.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Patterns such as e /repeating/ numerals 1828 are
not meaningful.

So? Nobody said anything about patterns such as e repeating numerals.
What was described was something more complex.

Post by Robert Carnegie
I like the sparrow DNA one better.

Why? Manipulating DNA just isn't any trick. That one could be some
ancient astronaut with ET-CRISPR alleviating his boredom.

You'd certainly put the message to the test.

What test? Who said anything about a test?

Post by Robert Carnegie
Does it concern cat owners?

Quadibloc

2019-11-10 22:21:13 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

If God wanted to create a Universe in which pi had a message in it, then
presumably He would have to create a Universe in which the rules of logic and
mathematics were such to give rise to pi containing that message.

The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.

Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.

And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.

Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?

John Savard

J. Clarke

2019-11-10 23:32:36 UTC

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Post by Quadibloc
The rules of logic and mathematics in our Universe seem to be rather simple
ones, not contrived ones.
Of course, that doesn't prevent pi from *having* a message in it, since, after
all, God being God, He is certainly capable of doing a very slick job.
And then there's the possibility that many of the arguments here are missing.
Instead of changing the seemingly random digits of pi, if one wants something
that is arbitrary and contrived that would be *easy* for God to shape and mold
to His purpose, what about the languages we speak, and the alphabets we use to
write them?

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.

Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-11 03:04:53 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)

On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

J. Clarke

2019-11-11 03:24:32 UTC

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.

Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."

Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.

So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.

Titus G

2019-11-11 04:00:39 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."

This can not be possible. If it is true that a perfect God invented
ASCII with built in parity error checking redundancy, then there would
be a generalised saying that: "God works in Mysterious Ways."
Is there such a saying?
Seriously, he should have paid more attention to that snake rather
coding or playing computer games.

Post by J. Clarke
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.

Jaimie Vandenbergh

2019-11-11 12:21:22 UTC

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:20:38 -0800 (PST), Peter Trei

Post by Titus G

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."

If god uses EBCDIC, we'll never know....

Every version variation its own schism. Sounds reasonable.

Cheers - Jaimie

--
Actually, the Singularity seems rather useful in the entire work avoidance
field. "I _could_ write up that report now but if I put it off, I may well
become a weakly godlike entity, at which point not only will I be able to
type faster but my comments will be more on-target." - James Nicoll

o***@gmail.com

2019-11-11 18:15:16 UTC

If god uses EBCDIC, we'll never know....

Horrid guitar tuning.......

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-11 11:43:04 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.

But there is no such message and there never will be.

On the other hand, God in the bible has a very easy way to get people
to believe in him; dreams and hallucinations. Many bible characters
experience these and find them convincing.

A hallucination of finding a message in pi might be needlesssly elaborate,
but apparently God likes to do things elaborately. Look at Balaam's ass.

Here is the "Leibniz" calculation of pi.

1 - (1/3) + (1/5) - (1/7) + (1/9) - (1/11) + ... keep going ... = pi / 4.

It is just adding and subtracting a series of simple fractions.
The result provides the value of pi. It doesn't work quickly,
but it does work, and there just isn't anywhere to insert
a "message" into this process. Not even for God, unless
God jogs every mathematician's elbow at the same points
in the calculation process. I don't put it past him, but
I consider it cheating.

You are proposing to find a message in pi because pi looks
mysterious - to you. Because /you/ do not understand pi.
But as the Leibniz formula shows, pi is really very simple.

J. Clarke

2019-11-12 00:13:44 UTC

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 03:43:04 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.

But there is no such message and there never will be.

There is a very high probability that you are correct. However no
matter how many digits of pi we calculate, there are still infinitely
many in which it could be present.

Post by Robert Carnegie
On the other hand, God in the bible has a very easy way to get people
to believe in him; dreams and hallucinations. Many bible characters
experience these and find them convincing.

I don't. We are discussing what I would find compelling, not what
some credulous goatherd would find compelling.

Post by Robert Carnegie
A hallucination of finding a message in pi might be needlesssly elaborate,
but apparently God likes to do things elaborately. Look at Balaam's ass.

A hallucination would not be compelling. Whatever condition led to the
hallucination might also form a compulsion, but I am not proposing
mental illness.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Here is the "Leibniz" calculation of pi.
1 - (1/3) + (1/5) - (1/7) + (1/9) - (1/11) + ... keep going ... = pi / 4.

Yes, child. I am aware of it. At one time I could produce the proof.

Post by Robert Carnegie
It is just adding and subtracting a series of simple fractions.

Yes, so?

Post by Robert Carnegie
The result provides the value of pi. It doesn't work quickly,
but it does work, and there just isn't anywhere to insert
a "message" into this process.

YOU ARE NOT HEARING WHAT I AM SAYING. Nothing is "inserted". The
calculation produces the sequence that constitutes the message.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Not even for God, unless
God jogs every mathematician's elbow at the same points
in the calculation process.

There is no requirement for "jogging elbows".

Post by Robert Carnegie
I don't put it past him, but
I consider it cheating.

But that is not what is being proposed.

You have been told this over and over and over again and you have just
ignored it every time.

Post by Robert Carnegie
You are proposing to find a message in pi because pi looks
mysterious - to you.

I have done you the favor of not condescending or insulting your
intelligence. You however seem to have a serious issue with reading
comprehension. Perhaps you should have spent less time learning about
pi and more time learning to read simple declarative sentences.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Because /you/ do not understand pi.

No, /you/ do not understand the English language. _you_ keep
insisting on this idiotic notion of "changing".

Get CHANGING out of your illiterate head.

Post by Robert Carnegie
But as the Leibniz formula shows, pi is really very simple.

I am not "proposing to find a message in pi". I am stating that if
there were such messages, that WERE ALSO IN E, which you do not
address, CROSS-REFERENCED to the ones in pi, which you do not address,
I would find that compelling.

The argument that you keep presenting over and over trying to convince
me of the impossibility of such messages is precisly _why_ they would
be convincing.

Alan Baker

2019-11-12 02:24:08 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:21:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is only one message in pi, which is "pi".
It is full up with that, with no room for variations.

Who said anything about "variations"? You're still attacking a straw
man.

Not just pi. Pi and e, cross-referenced.

Uh, you're still on about "changing the digits". No digits changed.
It came from the factory that way.
Altering our languages so that they correspond to the encoded messages
had not occurred to me. But that is again something that I don't
think a human could do, since it would presupposed knowing that the
messages were there and what encoding they used.

Well, it could be an act of God to direct human evolution of language
so that "3.1415927", for instance, is a a word. (it spells cadaeibg)
On our own, we've invented "May I have a large container of coffee?"
That's only a similar thing if you really, really want to believe
that it is.

I think you're still not understanding the hypothetical.
Somewhere in the digits of pi you find
084104105115032105115032097032109101115115097103101032102114111109032071111100046032032089111117032119105108108032102105110100032116104101032115097109101032109101115115097103101032115116097114116105110103032097116032100101099105109097108032112111115105116105111110032056057052053049050056057048049053050056057048053052049050056057048049053056057048050052049057053056056057048052053050049032111102032101046
which is the ASCII representation of: "This is a message from God. You
will find the same message starting at decimal position
8945128901528905412890158902419588904521 of e."
Note that in the hypothetical, the message really does appear in e at
that location, and contains a similar pointer to the location in pi.
So the construction of language would have to support or create those
pointers.

But there is no such message and there never will be.
On the other hand, God in the bible has a very easy way to get people
to believe in him; dreams and hallucinations. Many bible characters
experience these and find them convincing.
A hallucination of finding a message in pi might be needlesssly elaborate,
but apparently God likes to do things elaborately. Look at Balaam's ass.
Here is the "Leibniz" calculation of pi.
1 - (1/3) + (1/5) - (1/7) + (1/9) - (1/11) + ... keep going ... = pi / 4.
It is just adding and subtracting a series of simple fractions.
The result provides the value of pi. It doesn't work quickly,
but it does work, and there just isn't anywhere to insert
a "message" into this process. Not even for God, unless
God jogs every mathematician's elbow at the same points
in the calculation process. I don't put it past him, but
I consider it cheating.
You are proposing to find a message in pi because pi looks
mysterious - to you. Because /you/ do not understand pi.
But as the Leibniz formula shows, pi is really very simple.

You are really not getting this.

Robert Carnegie

2019-11-11 02:59:21 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:47:17 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:07:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:47:29 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:09:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
https://www.livescience.com/catholic-church-made-westerners-weird.html
John Savard

Often, listening to the fundies criticizing what they believe is science contradicting "their book"........one will hear the POV that, since a cause cannot be found......GODDIDDIT........
The live science article seems to take that tack.......we can't find any other reason........so.....THIS GOTTA BE IT
....I will await further research.....maybe....if there are no fish biting.....

People don't understand that in a very real sense science is a search
for God. Not in the sense that "God could have done this so God did
it"--that's not science--but in the sense that "we have exhausted
every other possibility for explaining this phenomenon and the only
one left is a deity". I do not believe that that situation will ever
be encountered, but that is how it will be known that there is a
deity.
An example of the sort of thing that I would find to be persuasive
would be finding in the digits of pi a message from God, with the
identical message in the digits of e, and with every identifiable
occurrence of the message in e having a pointer to the sequentially
corresponding message in pi and vice versa.
The thing that would be persuasive is not the _message_, it is the
_pointers_.

.....uh.....huh........
(heh,heh,heh)

OK, if such a thing was found, what would your explanation be?
Oh, and have you ever studied statistics?

Pi and e are not statistical variables, they are purely mathematical
values. It's not possible for pi not to be pi, even in God's hands.
The same goes for e. The only variable is in choosing decimal
expression to represent these numbers, and that has limited room
for expression.
The first digits of e are 2.7 1828 1828, if you want to read anything
into or out of that. And pi is 3.14 15 9265.

Your point being?

In the last part: is the meaning not obvious? :-)
For the rest: pi or e are not books in which God can
write messages to us.

And yet in this scenario someone, or something--God, Cthulhu, the Game
Master, _something_ has done so.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Each is, in fact, a number
produced by an extremely simple arithmetical formula,
and also fundamental in many mathematical relationships.

You are looking at the point but not seeing it.

Post by Robert Carnegie
There is no pi but pi and God had nothing to do with it.

So where did those messages come from?

The correct interpretation, with pi, is that the
calculation was performed incorrectly.

Nope. Where did I assert that?

Since it is not actually possible that numbers like pi contain
hidden messages, finding such as message means that your calculation
process has done something other than to calculate pi. And since
it happens only when calculating pi, or e, it is a new force of
some kind.

This article does indicate that most serious attempts on pi
get some digits wrong, and this was not always detected.
So maybe someone has been interfering all along.

Or maybe humans are not perfect.

I can add that knowing all of the decimal digits of pi
is not really important.

It is not possible in this universe to know all the decimal digits of
pi. There are infinitely many of them and the universe is finite.
Eventually you'll run out of storage.

I could have this wrong, but I think that a currently used formula
allows you to calculate any hexadecimal digit of pi on its own,
So you can have any digit that you want.

And in Star Trek novel _Memory Prime_, it's stated offhand that the
great computers that are involved in the story have discovered that
pi is a rational number (a fraction) after all, but they have not
told anybody.

In the universe of _The Ragged Astronauts_, pi is 3, because the
author says so.

But that doesn't make it true, or make it possible.