[tor dot com] Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives

[James Nicoll]

Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/

"The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets" is the one I immediately
thought of, on seeing the Subject line.

It's also the only one of the five I've read.

[William Hyde]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/

"The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets" is the one I immediately
thought of, on seeing the Subject line.
It's also the only one of the five I've read.

Really? I would have thought De Camp was de rigueur.

I would say the same about McCaffrey if her name was de Caffrey.

I love the cover and blurb on the edition James gives. Mine only has a picture of
one-armed people playing trumpets. His warns about young people with radical
ideas and strange new music. Guaranteed to get sales in 1970.

William Hyde

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by William Hyde

Post by James Nicoll

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives

https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/
"The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets" is the one I immediately
thought of, on seeing the Subject line.
It's also the only one of the five I've read.

Really? I would have thought De Camp was de rigueur.

I've read a lot of the Viagens Interplanetarias stories, but I
drew a blank on the one James mentions.

[Robert Woodward]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by William Hyde

Post by James Nicoll

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives

https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interfer
ence-directives/
"The Still, Small Voice of Trumpets" is the one I immediately
thought of, on seeing the Subject line.
It's also the only one of the five I've read.

Really? I would have thought De Camp was de rigueur.

I've read a lot of the Viagens Interplanetarias stories, but I
drew a blank on the one James mentions.

BTW, it was first published in the November 1949 issue of _Astounding_
(the one that was "reviewed" in a gag letter the year before), an issue
with stories by 5 future SFWA Grand Masters plus Theodore Sturgeon who
would had been one if he hadn't died at age 67.

[Quadibloc]

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/

Again the delightful use of puns, what with Captain Kirk of Star Trek
acknowledging the Prime Directive mainly in the breach.

However, I remember reading a short story, which I don't remember
well enough to name, that went like this:

An alien race metamorphoses like butterflies do. But the caterpillar
stage is able to breed.

They have a custom of preventing metamorphosis by near-asphyxiation,
which leaves people imbeciles after the age of metamorpohosis. A
member of this race asks a visiting Earth scientist to shield him from this...
and the tug on his emotions prevails, although there's a non-interference
principle.

So he doesn't have heavy armament to clean up the mess when the
reason for the alien custom is revealed: after metamorphosis,
instead of studying science and mathematics, the butterfly stage
goes and ravages the alien village.

Now, a story like that shows that there is an actual good reason
for having a Prime Directive, whereas most stories about the matter
tend to make me root against it: of *course* aliens should descend
on Earth, and destroy the tyrannical regimes in places like China,
Russia, and North Korea!

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Post by Quadibloc
However, I remember reading a short story, which I don't remember
An alien race metamorphoses like butterflies do. But the caterpillar
stage is able to breed.

If someone wishes to take this as a YASID, I should at least give
all the clues which I do remember. It appeared in Omni.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 23:15:32 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/

Again the delightful use of puns, what with Captain Kirk of Star Trek
acknowledging the Prime Directive mainly in the breach.
However, I remember reading a short story, which I don't remember
An alien race metamorphoses like butterflies do. But the caterpillar
stage is able to breed.
They have a custom of preventing metamorphosis by near-asphyxiation,
which leaves people imbeciles after the age of metamorpohosis. A
member of this race asks a visiting Earth scientist to shield him from this...
and the tug on his emotions prevails, although there's a non-interference
principle.
So he doesn't have heavy armament to clean up the mess when the
reason for the alien custom is revealed: after metamorphosis,
instead of studying science and mathematics, the butterfly stage
goes and ravages the alien village.
Now, a story like that shows that there is an actual good reason
for having a Prime Directive, whereas most stories about the matter
tend to make me root against it: of *course* aliens should descend
on Earth, and destroy the tyrannical regimes in places like China,
Russia, and North Korea!

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

[Quadibloc]

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

Blood-sucking aliens, indeed...

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?

So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?

I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?
So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

Well, that's not what destroyed the empires, but that's the reason
why the African & Indian colonies were never colonies of settlement
like the Americas, Australia, NZ etc. The "tropical diseases" were
generally fatal for Europeans.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Well, that's not what destroyed the empires, but that's the reason
why the African & Indian colonies were never colonies of settlement
like the Americas, Australia, NZ etc. The "tropical diseases" were
generally fatal for Europeans.

Nitpick: the existence of Rhodesia and the Union of South Africa...

John Savard

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Well, that's not what destroyed the empires, but that's the reason
why the African & Indian colonies were never colonies of settlement
like the Americas, Australia, NZ etc. The "tropical diseases" were
generally fatal for Europeans.

Nitpick: the existence of Rhodesia and the Union of South Africa...
John Savard

I didn't want to get too detailed. Basically Africa between the
Sahara and the Cape area is deadly to Europeans. North Africa &
the Cape area are much less inimical. I believe according to
Diamond, the climate is so different in the Cape area that black
Africans didn't colonize it until the same era the Europeans
did because their usual crop mix would not grow there. After that
the native Bushmen got it from both sides..

[Quadibloc]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I believe according to
Diamond, the climate is so different in the Cape area that black
Africans didn't colonize it until the same era the Europeans
did because their usual crop mix would not grow there. After that
the native Bushmen got it from both sides..

And this fact was even used by white South Africans as an excuse for
apartheid, on the basis that the "bantu" were immigrants.

John Savard

[Paul S Person]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?
So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

Well, that's not what destroyed the empires, but that's the reason
why the African & Indian colonies were never colonies of settlement
like the Americas, Australia, NZ etc. The "tropical diseases" were
generally fatal for Europeans.

That would work better if none of the Americas were tropical.

But you are correct. Yellow fever killed a lot of workers when in
Panama, IIRC.

And the difference is population density, which was higher in Africa
and India. Also cultural level, in India and to the east.

Ethiopia was not colonized until the 1930s. Japan never was, although
it was conquered and occupied in 1945. China was bullied and forced to
allow European enclaves, but never defeated, colonized, or occupied.

The history of Western expansion is /not/ about every single bit of
the planet ending up belonging to one or another of the European
powers. Just a lot of it -- until the revolts in the Americas, anyway.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?
So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

I don't think it was intended to be a point-for-point allegory.
It was an exercise in "How would you feel if it happened to you?"

And the death by microorganisms may have corresponded to nothing
at all in real-world history, but simply a way of getting out of
an otherwise ineradicable infestation. Otherwise, there would
have been no humans left to tell the story.

One of the things I've noticed about early SF is that its authors
apparently felt the need of a work-around to explain how the
author got the data. The Time Traveler came back to the present
to tell his story. I forget which early work of SF began with an
introduction titled something like "The Man Who Remembered [or
was it "Dreamed"?] the Future." Was it Williamson's _The Legion
of Space_? i

Wells's _The Shape of Things to Come_ is written in the form of a
third volume of his _Outline of History_. But that was published
in 1933, whereas _The Time Machine came out in 1895; perhaps by
1933 Wells not longer felt the need to explain how he "learned"
the story.

And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?
So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

I don't think it was intended to be a point-for-point allegory.
It was an exercise in "How would you feel if it happened to you?"

It can also be placed in the "invasion literature"
tradition, here seen as mainly a British fear.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds#Relation_to_invasion_literature>

But the page first says "Wells said that the plot
arose from a discussion with his brother Frank
about the catastrophic effect of the British on
indigenous Tasmanians. What would happen,
he wondered, if Martians did to Britain what the
British had done to the Tasmanians?"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Tasmanians>
(but you can probably guess).

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And the death by microorganisms may have corresponded to nothing
at all in real-world history, but simply a way of getting out of
an otherwise ineradicable infestation. Otherwise, there would
have been no humans left to tell the story.

Or at least it would be hard to find a publisher.
Unless the folks back on Mars appreciated it.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
One of the things I've noticed about early SF is that its authors
apparently felt the need of a work-around to explain how the
author got the data. The Time Traveler came back to the present
to tell his story. I forget which early work of SF began with an
introduction titled something like "The Man Who Remembered [or
was it "Dreamed"?] the Future." Was it Williamson's _The Legion
of Space_? i
Wells's _The Shape of Things to Come_ is written in the form of a
third volume of his _Outline of History_. But that was published
in 1933, whereas _The Time Machine came out in 1895; perhaps by
1933 Wells not longer felt the need to explain how he "learned"
the story.

Mais oui, someone is dreaming it. Dreaming about
a future history textbook.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

I haven't checked, but I think Isaac Asimov's
"Pate de Fois Gras" does describe a mystery in
atomic reactions in 20th century America, with
insistence that scientist characters in the story
are fictional but also that they really would like
readers to send in an explanation.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?
So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

I don't think it was intended to be a point-for-point allegory.
It was an exercise in "How would you feel if it happened to you?"

It can also be placed in the "invasion literature"
tradition, here seen as mainly a British fear.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds#Relation_to_invasion_literature>
But the page first says "Wells said that the plot
arose from a discussion with his brother Frank
about the catastrophic effect of the British on
indigenous Tasmanians. What would happen,
he wondered, if Martians did to Britain what the
British had done to the Tasmanians?"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Tasmanians>
(but you can probably guess).

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And the death by microorganisms may have corresponded to nothing
at all in real-world history, but simply a way of getting out of
an otherwise ineradicable infestation. Otherwise, there would
have been no humans left to tell the story.

Or at least it would be hard to find a publisher.
Unless the folks back on Mars appreciated it.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
One of the things I've noticed about early SF is that its authors
apparently felt the need of a work-around to explain how the
author got the data. The Time Traveler came back to the present
to tell his story. I forget which early work of SF began with an
introduction titled something like "The Man Who Remembered [or
was it "Dreamed"?] the Future." Was it Williamson's _The Legion
of Space_? i
Wells's _The Shape of Things to Come_ is written in the form of a
third volume of his _Outline of History_. But that was published
in 1933, whereas _The Time Machine came out in 1895; perhaps by
1933 Wells not longer felt the need to explain how he "learned"
the story.

Mais oui, someone is dreaming it. Dreaming about
a future history textbook.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

I haven't checked, but I think Isaac Asimov's
"Pate de Fois Gras" does describe a mystery in
atomic reactions in 20th century America, with
insistence that scientist characters in the story
are fictional but also that they really would like
readers to send in an explanation.

Ah, yes. "This is pure fiction, it never happened, but can
anyone figure out how to solve imaginary-our nonexistent
problem?"

And several readers wrote in with the appropriate answer.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

The Screwtape Letters starts with:

"I have no intention of explaining how the correspondence
which I now offer to the public fell into my hands."

C.S. Lewis.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

"I have no intention of explaining how the correspondence
which I now offer to the public fell into my hands."
C.S. Lewis.

Thank you.

[J. Clarke]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.
And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?

A "Fiction Titles" search on "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff" should
do the trick. "wadget" or "and boff" should work too since they are all
sufficiently unique.

I was curious about the story, and looked for it on Amazon. Found it
in "Selected Stories" and learned something. I did not realize how
much Sturgeon I had read and loved.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.
And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?

A "Fiction Titles" search on "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff" should
do the trick. "wadget" or "and boff" should work too since they are all
sufficiently unique.

I was curious about the story, and looked for it on Amazon. Found it
in "Selected Stories" and learned something. I did not realize how
much Sturgeon I had read and loved.

It hasn't been reprinted much.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.
And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?

A "Fiction Titles" search on "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff" should
do the trick. "wadget" or "and boff" should work too since they are all
sufficiently unique.

I was curious about the story, and looked for it on Amazon. Found it
in "Selected Stories" and learned something. I did not realize how
much Sturgeon I had read and loved.

It hasn't been reprinted much.

It did, however, make it into /A Treasury of Great Science Fiction/,
which the SFBC put out and, IIRC, at one time used as part of their
"introductory offer".

And why not? It lives up to its name!

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.
And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?

A "Fiction Titles" search on "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff" should
do the trick. "wadget" or "and boff" should work too since they are all
sufficiently unique.

I was curious about the story, and looked for it on Amazon. Found it
in "Selected Stories" and learned something. I did not realize how
much Sturgeon I had read and loved.

It hasn't been reprinted much.

It did, however, make it into /A Treasury of Great Science Fiction/,
which the SFBC put out and, IIRC, at one time used as part of their
"introductory offer".
And why not? It lives up to its name!

Yes, indeed. SFBC, I seem to remember, is how I got my copy.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.
And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?

A "Fiction Titles" search on "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff" should
do the trick.

Only it didn't. I got "not found."

"wadget" or "and boff" should work too since they are all

sufficiently unique.

Thanks! "Wadget" (without brackets) worked.

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi?arg=Wadget&type=Fiction+Titles

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

...

Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe.  I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game).  I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

...
Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Dorothy is the Grandma of SF who never wants to put anyone to any
trouble. :)

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dimensional Traveler
Dorothy is the Grandma of SF who never wants to put anyone to any
trouble. :)

I certainly see nothing wrong with that attitude.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe.  I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game).  I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

...
Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Dorothy is the Grandma of SF who never wants to put anyone to any
trouble. :)

Well, not quite. (I am the grandmother of Vincent, Ydris, and
Auberon, but that's another matter.) And I try to resist the
urge to put anyone to any trouble if it can be avoided, because
so often it can't.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

Would that start with "My Dear Wormwood"?

Maybe. I've already had to get Hal to stand guard at the fiction
room door once today, don't feel like doing it again (he's in the
middle of a game). I've already explained about the cats, whose
greatest ambition is to get into the book rooms where they are
not supposed to be.

...
Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Nope. He wants to level another of his alts, or to read all the
snarky comments on _The Register_, or upgrade the software on yet
another Raspberry Pi, or any number of other things, mostly
involving the computer. And since he helps me with so many other
things, such as making breakfast every day, and helping me walk
when my legs are weak, and driving me to doctors' appointments,
et multa cetera, I don't like to disturb him any oftener than I
have to.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Lynn McGuire
Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Nope. He wants to level another of his alts, or to read all the
snarky comments on _The Register_, or upgrade the software on yet
another Raspberry Pi, or any number of other things, mostly
involving the computer. And since he helps me with so many other
things, such as making breakfast every day, and helping me walk
when my legs are weak, and driving me to doctors' appointments,
et multa cetera, I don't like to disturb him any oftener than I
have to.

While I can't blame him for wanting to do such things, no doubt he can
figure out how to put wheels on his computer desk or some such
thing so that he can do those things wile still facilitating increased
access to your SF book collection.

Or something can be worked out involving you scheduling an appointment
which will least inconvenience him. If you're willing to go halfway and make
it easier for him to help you, everyone can be happy.

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Lynn McGuire
Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Nope. He wants to level another of his alts, or to read all the
snarky comments on _The Register_, or upgrade the software on yet
another Raspberry Pi, or any number of other things, mostly
involving the computer. And since he helps me with so many other
things, such as making breakfast every day, and helping me walk
when my legs are weak, and driving me to doctors' appointments,
et multa cetera, I don't like to disturb him any oftener than I
have to.

While I can't blame him for wanting to do such things, no doubt he can
figure out how to put wheels on his computer desk or some such
thing so that he can do those things wile still facilitating increased
access to your SF book collection.
Or something can be worked out involving you scheduling an appointment
which will least inconvenience him. If you're willing to go halfway and make
it easier for him to help you, everyone can be happy.

John, are you in a happy marriage? Hal and Dorothy are.
They know how, and I strongly suspect that you don't.

[Quadibloc]

John, are you in a happy marriage? Hal and Dorothy are.
They know how, and I strongly suspect that you don't.

I wasn't suggesting that Dorothy ask anything unreasonable of Hal.

Just that it _might_ be possible to gently find a way to address this
issue to everyone's satisfaction.

There are other alternatives; The door to the area with the books is in a
room. Perhaps that room can be given doors, or other barriers, so that
all cats can be removed from the room, and cats kept out, before the
area to the books is opened.

Of course, neither Hal nor Dorothy are in a position to engage in
large scale home handyman projects, but possibly something can be
more easily improvised.

How many cats are there in the household? Is it practical to round them
all up, and temporarily put them behind a closed door when sensitive
activities are engaged in? I was just watching a YouTube video the other
day by a Korean uploader about how she had built a "cat prison" from
clear plastic in her new apartment.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

John, are you in a happy marriage? Hal and Dorothy are.
They know how, and I strongly suspect that you don't.

I wasn't suggesting that Dorothy ask anything unreasonable of Hal.
Just that it _might_ be possible to gently find a way to address this
issue to everyone's satisfaction.
There are other alternatives; The door to the area with the books is in a
room.

It's in a narrow hallway.

Post by Quadibloc
Perhaps that room can be given doors, or other barriers, so that
all cats can be removed from the room, and cats kept out, before the
area to the books is opened.

An airlock effect? Don't I wish. It's open at the near end, and
at the far end it has doors to the fiction room, a linen closet,
and the nonfiction and electronics room*.

Now here's the rub. If *I* open any of those doors, the cats
come racing in, hoping to get inside and explore. If I go into
an actual room (the linen closet is full of shelves), I can get
inside and close the door in their little furry faces. But they
hang around, yowling at the door occasionally (have I ever
mentioned that they are half-Siamese?) and if I open the door to
try to get out, they get in and it takes much maneuvering by both
of us to get them out again, because the rooms are full of
bookshelves and things.

So I need either to ask Hal to stop what he's doing and get up
and stand in the hallway discouraging the cats, or if I forgot to
do that, open the door a fraction of an inch, and call for Hal to
come and discouraging them. And the acoustics of our flat are
such that if you're in the main room you can't hear anything said
in the other rooms, and vice versa.

So it's easier (also considering that I can't stand around unless
I have something to hold onto) just to avoid asking him to guard
the door unless it's really necessary.

Post by Quadibloc
Of course, neither Hal nor Dorothy are in a position to engage in
large scale home handyman projects, but possibly something can be
more easily improvised.

Nope. Rented house, absentee landlord, Hal and I are old, Meg
and Walkyr work, and Vincent is thirteen. And we're hoping to
move next summer, to someplace where there are no stairs. (I'll
save for another discourse how I have to get up, and down, the
front stairs on the seat of my pants.)

Post by Quadibloc
How many cats are there in the household? Is it practical to round them
all up, and temporarily put them behind a closed door when sensitive
activities are engaged in? I was just watching a YouTube video the other
day by a Korean uploader about how she had built a "cat prison" from
clear plastic in her new apartment.

There are two of them, just over a year old, and lively as
jackrabbits. I suppose I should also point out that they only
follow *me* into the hall; if Hal or Vincent needs to go into
either room, the cats don't follow.

_____
*As some here may remember, Hal and I run registration for a
gaming convention every spring (didn't happen this year,
obviously). I'll also save for another discourse how we started
doing it. So about a quarter of the nonfiction room is filled
with electronics, monitors. tubs of cables, power cords, files,
and other kipple I won't enumerate. And it all has to be loaded
into a van and transported to the con hotel.)

[Quadibloc]

An airlock effect? Don't I wish. It's open at the near end, and
at the far end it has doors to the fiction room, a linen closet,
and the nonfiction and electronics room*.

Well, if there were some way to close the narrow hallway at
the near end, the problem would be solved. All you would have to do
is add a door of some kind. Of course, that may be highly impractical
for any number of reasons.

The biggest problem is that you can't just, say, slide a big box in
front of the entrance to the hallway, since cats are good at jumping and
climbing. Putting in something like a shower curtain would clearly
be totally ineffective.

But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

An airlock effect? Don't I wish. It's open at the near end, and
at the far end it has doors to the fiction room, a linen closet,
and the nonfiction and electronics room*.

Well, if there were some way to close the narrow hallway at
the near end, the problem would be solved. All you would have to do
is add a door of some kind. Of course, that may be highly impractical
for any number of reasons.

Let me count the ways!

Post by Quadibloc
The biggest problem is that you can't just, say, slide a big box in
front of the entrance to the hallway, since cats are good at jumping and
climbing.

Ohhhhh yes. And I am unable to do either.

Post by Quadibloc
Putting in something like a shower curtain would clearly
be totally ineffective.
But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

Are you serious?

No, there isn't.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

Are you serious?

I wasn't claiming I knew of one offhand.

But possibly something along these lines would work:

1) The curtain itself would have to be longer than the typical shower curtain.
Not more than an inch could separate the bar from the ceiling, or the bottom of
the curtain from the floor, or the top of the curtain from the bar.

2) When the curtain is drawn, there would have to be fasteners on its sides,
so that it could be fixed to the walls - with enough force that it is also drawn
taut.

But even if that could be made to work, it wouldn't necessarily be the best
way to achieve the goal, and it might be unattractive in appearance.

What I don't know is the situation of the near end of the narrow hallway.

If there were a sizable blank and unused wall going off from it at right angles
at that side, it would be relatively easy for one of your children
to install something that could slide into place as a barrier.

But that favorable situation may not exist.

The next obvious alternative, which is even a relatively
conventional type of doorway used for closets, would be
some type of pleated door that unfolds:

basically, take an accordion door, such as is used
for a closet, and above it put a wooden panel
to reduce the hallway's height at that line to that
of a doorway.

Attention, of course, would need to be devoted to
arranging it so that the cats couldn't easily crawl
under the bottom of the door.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

Are you serious?

I wasn't claiming I knew of one offhand.
1) The curtain itself would have to be longer than the typical shower curtain.
Not more than an inch could separate the bar from the ceiling, or the bottom of
the curtain from the floor, or the top of the curtain from the bar.
2) When the curtain is drawn, there would have to be fasteners on its sides,
so that it could be fixed to the walls - with enough force that it is also drawn
taut.
But even if that could be made to work, it wouldn't necessarily be the best
way to achieve the goal, and it might be unattractive in appearance.
What I don't know is the situation of the near end of the narrow hallway.
If there were a sizable blank and unused wall going off from it at right angles
at that side, it would be relatively easy for one of your children
to install something that could slide into place as a barrier.
But that favorable situation may not exist.
The next obvious alternative, which is even a relatively
conventional type of doorway used for closets, would be
basically, take an accordion door, such as is used
for a closet, and above it put a wooden panel
to reduce the hallway's height at that line to that
of a doorway.
Attention, of course, would need to be devoted to
arranging it so that the cats couldn't easily crawl
under the bottom of the door.

I suspect you have little experience of cats.

I'm thinking that the best bet would be simply a piece of plywood with
a couple of hinges in a frame that could be put up with double-sided
foam tape. Might damage the paint when it came down but wouldn't
likely damage the wall itself.

It has to pretty much completely close the corridor and not be
flexible or susceptible to knife attack (nothing that most cats are
well equipped with knives or reasonable facsimiles thereof).

But at this point it's not going to be super cheap--wait for the
prices of construction materials to stabilize--construction grade
sheathing right now costs about the same as aircraft plywood.

[Quadibloc]

Given that Dorothy lives in rental accomodations, I understand her
alternatives are limited.

But then, even a little Saran Wrap might work for a time...

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc
Given that Dorothy lives in rental accomodations, I understand her
alternatives are limited.
But then, even a little Saran Wrap might work for a time...
http://youtu.be/EJS4hYNngto

... while also preventing the humans from reaching the doors.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
Given that Dorothy lives in rental accomodations, I understand her
alternatives are limited.
But then, even a little Saran Wrap might work for a time...
http://youtu.be/EJS4hYNngto

... while also preventing the humans from reaching the doors.

And Tigger the Obnoxious Tomcat would have just shredded it all.
Unless he ate it.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
Given that Dorothy lives in rental accomodations, I understand her
alternatives are limited.
But then, even a little Saran Wrap might work for a time...
http://youtu.be/EJS4hYNngto

... while also preventing the humans from reaching the doors.

And Tigger the Obnoxious Tomcat would have just shredded it all.
Unless he ate it.

I have yet to run an experiment on Misthlith and Stillfot versus
Saran Wrap. But they are young and energetic, and their claws
are very sharp.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 20:26:25 -0400, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

Are you serious?

I wasn't claiming I knew of one offhand.
1) The curtain itself would have to be longer than the typical shower curtain.
Not more than an inch could separate the bar from the ceiling, or the bottom of
the curtain from the floor, or the top of the curtain from the bar.
2) When the curtain is drawn, there would have to be fasteners on its sides,
so that it could be fixed to the walls - with enough force that it is also drawn
taut.
But even if that could be made to work, it wouldn't necessarily be the best
way to achieve the goal, and it might be unattractive in appearance.
What I don't know is the situation of the near end of the narrow hallway.
If there were a sizable blank and unused wall going off from it at right angles
at that side, it would be relatively easy for one of your children
to install something that could slide into place as a barrier.
But that favorable situation may not exist.
The next obvious alternative, which is even a relatively
conventional type of doorway used for closets, would be
basically, take an accordion door, such as is used
for a closet, and above it put a wooden panel
to reduce the hallway's height at that line to that
of a doorway.
Attention, of course, would need to be devoted to
arranging it so that the cats couldn't easily crawl
under the bottom of the door.

I suspect you have little experience of cats.
I'm thinking that the best bet would be simply a piece of plywood with
a couple of hinges in a frame that could be put up with double-sided
foam tape. Might damage the paint when it came down but wouldn't
likely damage the wall itself.
It has to pretty much completely close the corridor and not be
flexible or susceptible to knife attack (nothing that most cats are
well equipped with knives or reasonable facsimiles thereof).
But at this point it's not going to be super cheap--wait for the
prices of construction materials to stabilize--construction grade
sheathing right now costs about the same as aircraft plywood.

The core problem here is not keeping the cats out. That can be done by
shutting the door, which (as I understand it) is currently working
quite well.

The core problem is keeping the cats out while a person enters the
room.

Theorem: any barrier sufficient to stop the cats will also stop the
person.

Proof is left as an exercise for the reader, who is under no
obligation to pursue it, as it may or may not exist, who can say?

[Quadibloc]

Post by Paul S Person
The core problem here is not keeping the cats out. That can be done by
shutting the door, which (as I understand it) is currently working
quite well.
The core problem is keeping the cats out while a person enters the
room.
Theorem: any barrier sufficient to stop the cats will also stop the
person.

The place with a door is in a hallway. There's a door to the room with
the books, yes. But there is no door to the hallway. If there were a door
to the hallway, the door to the room could be opened safely.

Or the place with the books is more like a closet, so one can't close
the door while looking at the books.

John Savard

[[e-mail]]

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

Are you serious?

I wasn't claiming I knew of one offhand.
1) The curtain itself would have to be longer than the typical shower curtain.
Not more than an inch could separate the bar from the ceiling, or the bottom of
the curtain from the floor, or the top of the curtain from the bar.
2) When the curtain is drawn, there would have to be fasteners on its sides,
so that it could be fixed to the walls - with enough force that it is also drawn
taut.
But even if that could be made to work, it wouldn't necessarily be the best
way to achieve the goal, and it might be unattractive in appearance.
What I don't know is the situation of the near end of the narrow hallway.
If there were a sizable blank and unused wall going off from it at right angles
at that side, it would be relatively easy for one of your children
to install something that could slide into place as a barrier.
But that favorable situation may not exist.
The next obvious alternative, which is even a relatively
conventional type of doorway used for closets, would be
basically, take an accordion door, such as is used
for a closet, and above it put a wooden panel
to reduce the hallway's height at that line to that
of a doorway.
Attention, of course, would need to be devoted to
arranging it so that the cats couldn't easily crawl
under the bottom of the door.

I suspect you have little experience of cats.
I'm thinking that the best bet would be simply a piece of plywood with
a couple of hinges in a frame that could be put up with double-sided
foam tape. Might damage the paint when it came down but wouldn't
likely damage the wall itself.
It has to pretty much completely close the corridor and not be
flexible or susceptible to knife attack (nothing that most cats are
well equipped with knives or reasonable facsimiles thereof).
But at this point it's not going to be super cheap--wait for the
prices of construction materials to stabilize--construction grade
sheathing right now costs about the same as aircraft plywood.

A lot of people find that baby gates do the job just fine.

Pt

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
But a shower curtain, unlike certain other types of barriers, would be a
simple thing to put in; so is there any way to modify a shower curtain to
make it an effective barrier to cats?

Are you serious?

I wasn't claiming I knew of one offhand.
1) The curtain itself would have to be longer than the typical shower curtain.
Not more than an inch could separate the bar from the ceiling, or the bottom of
the curtain from the floor, or the top of the curtain from the bar.
2) When the curtain is drawn, there would have to be fasteners on its sides,
so that it could be fixed to the walls - with enough force that it is also drawn
taut.
But even if that could be made to work, it wouldn't necessarily be the best
way to achieve the goal, and it might be unattractive in appearance.
What I don't know is the situation of the near end of the narrow hallway.
If there were a sizable blank and unused wall going off from it at right angles
at that side, it would be relatively easy for one of your children
to install something that could slide into place as a barrier.
But that favorable situation may not exist.
The next obvious alternative, which is even a relatively
conventional type of doorway used for closets, would be
basically, take an accordion door, such as is used
for a closet, and above it put a wooden panel
to reduce the hallway's height at that line to that
of a doorway.
Attention, of course, would need to be devoted to
arranging it so that the cats couldn't easily crawl
under the bottom of the door.

I suspect you have little experience of cats.
I'm thinking that the best bet would be simply a piece of plywood with
a couple of hinges in a frame that could be put up with double-sided
foam tape. Might damage the paint when it came down but wouldn't
likely damage the wall itself.
It has to pretty much completely close the corridor and not be
flexible or susceptible to knife attack (nothing that most cats are
well equipped with knives or reasonable facsimiles thereof).
But at this point it's not going to be super cheap--wait for the
prices of construction materials to stabilize--construction grade
sheathing right now costs about the same as aircraft plywood.

A lot of people find that baby gates do the job just fine.
Pt

Although cats can jump as high as five or six times their
own length.

[Quadibloc]

Post by ***@gmail.com
A lot of people find that baby gates do the job just fine.

Against a dog, perhaps. Against cats?

John Savard

[Titus G]

Post by Quadibloc

An airlock effect? Don't I wish. It's open at the near end, and
at the far end it has doors to the fiction room, a linen closet,
and the nonfiction and electronics room*.

Well, if there were some way to close the narrow hallway at
the near end, the problem would be solved. All you would have to do
is add a door of some kind. Of course, that may be highly impractical
for any number of reasons.snip

Stop chattering and build Dorothy a small non-binary Vat dog.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc

An airlock effect? Don't I wish. It's open at the near end, and
at the far end it has doors to the fiction room, a linen closet,
and the nonfiction and electronics room*.

Well, if there were some way to close the narrow hallway at
the near end, the problem would be solved. All you would have to do
is add a door of some kind. Of course, that may be highly impractical
for any number of reasons.snip

Stop chattering and build Dorothy a small non-binary Vat dog.

/snerk

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Lynn McGuire
Doesn't Hal want to sit in the doorway and play with the kitteh cats
while you browse your book stash for a few hours ?

Nope. He wants to level another of his alts, or to read all the
snarky comments on _The Register_, or upgrade the software on yet
another Raspberry Pi, or any number of other things, mostly
involving the computer. And since he helps me with so many other
things, such as making breakfast every day, and helping me walk
when my legs are weak, and driving me to doctors' appointments,
et multa cetera, I don't like to disturb him any oftener than I
have to.

While I can't blame him for wanting to do such things, no doubt he can
figure out how to put wheels on his computer desk or some such
thing so that he can do those things wile still facilitating increased
access to your SF book collection.

I wasn't going to answer this, but I guess I'd better. My
computer (well, the monitor and keyboard) are attached to a
hospital-style wheeled table. Cables extend therefrom to the
computer tower, which stands on a short chest of drawers next to
the bed. Remember, I've had CFS for years, and along about last
October it got worse. I have to hold on to something in order to
walk, and from time to time I fall anyway.

Hal's computer desk is a real desk, inherited from his father,
with a rolltop that is never rolled down because he keeps things
in all the little compartments.

And neither computer uses WiFi; Hal doesn't trust it and
therefore, electronics being his thing, neither do I. So our
computers are not portable. (He also doesn't trust the cloud.)

And anyway, if he were sitting in the hall with his computer, he
wouldn't be able to keep his attention on the cats.

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc
Or something can be worked out involving you scheduling an appointment
which will least inconvenience him. If you're willing to go halfway and make
it easier for him to help you, everyone can be happy.

John, are you in a happy marriage? Hal and Dorothy are.
They know how, and I strongly suspect that you don't.

/snerk

[James Nicoll]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And neither computer uses WiFi; Hal doesn't trust it and
therefore, electronics being his thing, neither do I. So our
computers are not portable. (He also doesn't trust the cloud.)

What's not to trust in the idea of parking my data in someone else's
hard drive, maintained under conditions I cannot check myself?

So, funny work story: a task I am frequently handed is running sound for
dance shows. One might think the worst case scenario for that is being
handed a stack of casettes but although we could handle that, it's never
happened while I was there (although CDs and a stack of iphones has).
The _actual_ worse case scenario is noticing mid-way through a show one
or more of the songs isn't actually on the client's laptop but in the
cloud. Invariably, clients who do this have _not_ arranged to have a
wifi connection at the theatre. There's a work around but you don't want
to be doing it during a show.

[Jack Bohn]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's another question: How can I get ISFDB to search for
the Sturgeon story "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff"? I
suspect the square brackets are throwing the software off.
Ahasuerus, are you around today?

A "Fiction Titles" search on "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff" should
do the trick. "wadget" or "and boff" should work too since they are all
sufficiently unique.

Wow! Even "widget" only returns nine possibilities, only five of which are not "The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff".


Presumably if I entered "the" the search engine will come as close to slapping me on the back of the head as The Three Laws allow.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.

I know it was. But it did not stem from any experience with ETs.

So ... the point of HG Wells' /War of the Worlds/ was ... that the
Colonizers were destroyed by native micro-organisms?
So, when the Empires were dissolved and the various subjugated nations
freed, it was because all the Europeans ... were dead from disease?
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

I don't think it was intended to be a point-for-point allegory.
It was an exercise in "How would you feel if it happened to you?"
And the death by microorganisms may have corresponded to nothing
at all in real-world history, but simply a way of getting out of
an otherwise ineradicable infestation. Otherwise, there would
have been no humans left to tell the story.
One of the things I've noticed about early SF is that its authors
apparently felt the need of a work-around to explain how the
author got the data. The Time Traveler came back to the present
to tell his story. I forget which early work of SF began with an
introduction titled something like "The Man Who Remembered [or
was it "Dreamed"?] the Future." Was it Williamson's _The Legion
of Space_? i

They also felt an inescapable urge to explain how their FTL drives
worked. Among other technical issues.

This made SF "educational", and so (together with the complete absence
of sex) allowable by parents.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Wells's _The Shape of Things to Come_ is written in the form of a
third volume of his _Outline of History_. But that was published
in 1933, whereas _The Time Machine came out in 1895; perhaps by
1933 Wells not longer felt the need to explain how he "learned"
the story.

I didn't read /Outline of History/ when I reread Wells because, first,
I was focused on fiction and, second, I had read it twice before.

But I must say that, if /The Shape of Things to Come/ is supposed to
be a continuation of /Outline of History/, then his style has greatly
degenerated, because it is not a very interesting read. Rather boring,
actually; like a textbook indifferently written by a hack.

This makes it more like the amazingly large number of "biopic" films I
have been watching because they were done by directors who /in the
past/ have directed movies worth watching [1]: for the most part,
watching paint dry would be more interesting.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And here's a YASID: What story begins with the sentence "I have
no intention of explaining how I learned this story"?

[1] Well, how else can I find out /for sure/ if there are any films
worth watching in there? And, indeed, I was eventually rewarded by
/Richard Jewell/, a biopic that is much better than watching grass
grow, in part because of its instructive depiction of Our Federal Tax
Dollars At Work. At work framing a hero, to be sure, but at work
nonetheless.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Paul S Person
I'm sorry, but this no-doubt very well established intellectual
literary theory doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

It was analogy, not allegory?

It illustrated what it felt like to be under the heel of a vastly
more technically advanced race that cared as little for you
as you did for ants... but it had the only plausible happy
ending that it could so as to make it palatable.

That in the real world, tropical diseases were an impediment,
but not insuperable, to colonialism... well, Africa wasn't on
another planet, after all.

John Savard

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.
Blood-sucking aliens, indeed...

Wait, didn't Wells write that at the time when "the white man's
burden" was the generally held view?

I was amused to notice that the British Army is largely ineffectual
against the Martians and it is up to the Royal Navy to make a stand.
That feels like such a British Empire kind of thing.

[Moriarty]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.
Blood-sucking aliens, indeed...

Wait, didn't Wells write that at the time when "the white man's
burden" was the generally held view?

WotW: 1897, WMB: 1899.
I don't know about 'generally held'. WMB got a *lot* of contemporary
pushback, in the UK, the US, and elsewhere. [BTW, most people seem
unaware that WMB is addressed to the American people, telling them
of the difficulties they will encounter civilizing the Philippines].

Asimov knew that. In "Asimov's Chronology of the World" he wrote:

"Kipling made it sound as though Americans were going to be sent to the Philippines to be dutiful servants, cooks and shoeshine boys to the Filipinos. It was the other way around, as Kipling well knew.

As for the Filipinos, they were horrified that their insurrection had merely served to switch masters from Spaniards to Americans. They did not want to be a burden to the white man; they wanted to run their own country."

One of the reasons I love that book, despite it's dubious usefulness as a history book, is that Asimov makes no pretense at objectivity as proper historians are supposed to do. Instead, he passes judgement as he sees fit, often in a wonderfully snarky way.

-Moriarty

[Quadibloc]

Post by Moriarty
"Kipling made it sound as though Americans were going to be sent to the Philippines
to be dutiful servants, cooks and shoeshine boys to the Filipinos. It was the other way
around, as Kipling well knew.

Well, of course he knew that - and he was not denying that. After all, that was exactly
the reason that the Americans would get no thanks for doing the hard work of dragging
the Filipinos out of savagery and into civilization!

Kipling may seem disingenuous by modern standards, but he was not dishonest.

John Savard

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.
Blood-sucking aliens, indeed...

Wait, didn't Wells write that at the time when "the white man's
burden" was the generally held view?

Wells was pretty seriously "anti-establishment".

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.
Blood-sucking aliens, indeed...

Wait, didn't Wells write that at the time when "the white man's
burden" was the generally held view?

Yes. But he was a Socialist and didn't hold the generally held
view.

[Ahasuerus]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

And he based that on experience with _how_ many ETs?

As many as Wells had when he wrote _War of the WOrlds._

That was a bitter satire on European colonianism.
Blood-sucking aliens, indeed...

Wells had a few interesting things to say about the "inferior races" in
__Anticipations_ (1901)
https://gutenberg.org/files/19229/19229-h/19229-h.htm :

"And how will the New Republic treat the inferior races? How will it deal
with the black? how will it deal with the yellow man? how will it tackle
that alleged termite in the civilized woodwork, the Jew? Certainly not as
races at all. It will aim to establish, and it will at last, though probably only
after a second century has passed, establish a world-state with a common
language and a common rule. All over the world its roads, its standards, its
laws, and its apparatus of control will run. It will, I have said, make the
multiplication of those who fall behind a certain standard of social
efficiency unpleasant and difficult, and it will have cast aside any coddling
laws to save adult men from themselves. It will tolerate no dark corners
where the people of the Abyss may fester, no vast diffused slums of
peasant proprietors, no stagnant plague-preserves. Whatever men may
come into its efficient citizenship it will let come—white, black, red, or
brown; the efficiency will be the test.

[snip Wells's ruminations about the Jews]

And for the rest, those swarms of black, and brown, and dirty-white, and
yellow people, who do not come into the new needs of efficiency?

Well, the world is a world, not a charitable institution, and I take it they
will have to go. The whole tenor and meaning of the world, as I see it, is
that they have to go. So far as they fail to develop sane, vigorous, and
distinctive personalities for the great world of the future, it is their
portion to die out and disappear."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

/shrug

If ever we meet any, we'll find out if he was right.

[Paul S Person]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 02:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

In his later works, he was quite insistent that the human race would
all be vegetarians in the future.

Interestingly, for a science fiction author he apparently never
thought of the possibility of creating meat products artificially,
with no actual animal being involved. Well, except as a cell donor.

Or (AFAIK) "plant-based meat", something at least one of our local
markets is using to group veggy-based meat substitutes under.

They, of course, mean "veggie-based". At least I hope so; Euell
Gibbons may have eaten a pine tree, but I don't think a meat
substitute is ever likely to be make from one.

(I looked "ever eat a pine tree" up to get the correct spelling for
the name; while I don't doubt you /could/ eat a pine cone, you can
pretty much eat /anything/. The question isn't whether or not you can
eat it; the question is, will it kill you?)

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2021-07-21, Paul S Person <***@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote:

[Arthur C. Clarke]

Post by Paul S Person
In his later works, he was quite insistent that the human race would
all be vegetarians in the future.
Interestingly, for a science fiction author he apparently never
thought of the possibility of creating meat products artificially,
with no actual animal being involved. Well, except as a cell donor.

I have a vague memory that he did. Not as in tissue cultures, but
some other pseudo-meat. Weren't they milking whales for this purpose
in... _Dolphin Island_?

[Quadibloc]

Post by Paul S Person
In his later works, he was quite insistent that the human race would
all be vegetarians in the future.
Interestingly, for a science fiction author he apparently never
thought of the possibility of creating meat products artificially,
with no actual animal being involved. Well, except as a cell donor.

That is odd, given that his rival Isaac Asimov actually made that
the chief plot point of one of his short stories.

But perhaps he thought that the human race would switch to
being vegetarians for _health_ reasons, not just _ethical_ reasons.

John Savard

[Thomas Koenig]

2. Wimps don't become top dogs.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species
in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent,
alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

I always have wondered how the stsho made it into space, how they
defended themselves against predators earlier in their history.

Or did the Knnn do a little uplifting?

[Jack Bohn]

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

I only have a description to go by, but there was a Russian story, "The Heart of the Serpent." (I can look it up, now, it's title should really be "Cor Serpentis" (in Cyrillic) after the constellation, by Ivan Yefremov, and has had only one English publication.) It was a critique of Leinster's "First Contact," and its assumption that our first First Contact we and the aliens wouldn't be able to trust each other. In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust each other. The story ends with the spaceship crew that had been discussing this making First Contact with another ship, and greeting each other in universal brotherhood.

I don't know if I could detect heavy sarcasm in a translation, hopefully for Yefremov's sake, any wouldn't be detectable in the original Russian.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Jack Bohn
I don't know if I could detect heavy sarcasm in a translation, hopefully
for Yefremov's sake, any wouldn't be detectable in the original Russian.

Of course, the translator might have added some to the English version
to make the story palatable for American audiences... of course, though,
"translation" would then not be the right term for such activity.

John Savard

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 06:04:02 -0700 (PDT), Jack Bohn

Post by Jack Bohn

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

I only have a description to go by, but there was a Russian story, "The Heart of the Serpent." (I can look it up, now, it's title should really be "Cor Serpentis" (in Cyrillic) after the constellation, by Ivan Yefremov, and has had only one English publication.) It was a critique of Leinster's "First Contact," and its assumption that our first First Contact we and the aliens wouldn't be able to trust each other. In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust each other. The story ends with the spaceship crew that had been discussing this making First Contact with another ship, and greeting each other in universal brotherhood.
I don't know if I could detect heavy sarcasm in a translation, hopefully for Yefremov's sake, any wouldn't be detectable in the original Russian.

I was once cozened into reading a novel by Stanisla Lem that I found
so ... vague ... that I had /no/ idea what it was about. I read it, of
course, in translation.

I supposed that it was written that way so that it would be equally
vague to whatever State Organs might read it and react badly if they
were better able to figure out what it was about than I was.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....

In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....

But if the political system is, say, a constitutional monarchy,
neither the parliament nor the monarch has any inevitable reason
to object to a socialist economy.

Post by Dimensional Traveler
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

I don't consider it impossible.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....

But if the political system is, say, a constitutional monarchy,
neither the parliament nor the monarch has any inevitable reason
to object to a socialist economy.

...beyond being forced to live in the same conditions as the people they
rule, without the perks, privileges and benefits that they have as the
rulers.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Dimensional Traveler
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

I don't consider it impossible.

No one has yet made actual "socialism" work yet. Even the countries
that come closest such as Sweden are tacking a lot of socialist features
on top of a capitalist economy. And its not even certain if _that_
would work in isolation.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

China at the moment is 'socialist' in name only. It's capitalist, but a
dictatorship.

Pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

China at the moment is 'socialist' in name only. It's capitalist, but a
dictatorship.

Economic and political, respectively.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

China at the moment is 'socialist' in name only. It's capitalist, but a
dictatorship.

Economic and political, respectively.

Its more "State Capitalist" in that the government directly owns or
otherwise controls a number of critical companies and industries and
dictates requirements to the rest.

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:33:45 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

China at the moment is 'socialist' in name only. It's capitalist, but a
dictatorship.

Economic and political, respectively.

Its more "State Capitalist" in that the government directly owns or
otherwise controls a number of critical companies and industries and
dictates requirements to the rest.

If they were actually dictating requirements one would expect the
quality of the goods produced to be higher. Japan was the place tht
dictated requirements.

[Quadibloc]

Post by J. Clarke
If they were actually dictating requirements one would expect the
quality of the goods produced to be higher. Japan was the place tht
dictated requirements.

Of course, Soviet Russia was the place well known for having quotas
of making X number of tons of alarm clocks, without much concern
about whether or not they worked.

Which was an ineffective way to run the economy, but presumably it
was only applied to consumer goods, not military items.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
If they were actually dictating requirements one would expect the
quality of the goods produced to be higher. Japan was the place tht
dictated requirements.

Of course, Soviet Russia was the place well known for having quotas
of making X number of tons of alarm clocks, without much concern
about whether or not they worked.
Which was an ineffective way to run the economy, but presumably it
was only applied to consumer goods, not military items.

There was an old joke, from the fifties IIRC. A Russian is
hauled in by the police for buying and using imported, instead of
domestic, matches.

His defense: "It is true that I use foreign matches--but only to
light our People's matches!:

And let's not forget the Yablotchka.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
If they were actually dictating requirements one would expect the
quality of the goods produced to be higher. Japan was the place tht
dictated requirements.

Of course, Soviet Russia was the place well known for having quotas
of making X number of tons of alarm clocks, without much concern
about whether or not they worked.
Which was an ineffective way to run the economy, but presumably it
was only applied to consumer goods, not military items.

There was an old joke, from the fifties IIRC. A Russian is
hauled in by the police for buying and using imported, instead of
domestic, matches.
His defense: "It is true that I use foreign matches--but only to
And let's not forget the Yablotchka.

Okay, I'll bite: "Little Apple"???

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[J. Clarke]

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021 04:27:36 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
If they were actually dictating requirements one would expect the
quality of the goods produced to be higher. Japan was the place tht
dictated requirements.

Of course, Soviet Russia was the place well known for having quotas
of making X number of tons of alarm clocks, without much concern
about whether or not they worked.
Which was an ineffective way to run the economy, but presumably it
was only applied to consumer goods, not military items.

Well, there was the famous case of the radar in the MiG-25, that was
cooled with vodka. Why was it cooled with issue vodka? Because the
alcohol provided for cooling it was better to drink than the vodka.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:33:45 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

China at the moment is 'socialist' in name only. It's capitalist, but a
dictatorship.

Economic and political, respectively.

Its more "State Capitalist" in that the government directly owns or
otherwise controls a number of critical companies and industries and
dictates requirements to the rest.

Kind of like Fascist Syndicates, then.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

I don't believe any of them qualify as 'socialist societies', as
they were all dicatorships.

Except that socialism is an economic system, and dictatorship is
a political system. You could have one and not the other.

Only if the dictatorship allows it. And since doing so would require
reducing their own wealth, power and comfort....
In theory it may be possible to separate economic system from political
system but in practice I don't think it is.

China at the moment is 'socialist' in name only. It's capitalist, but a
dictatorship.

Economic and political, respectively.

Its more "State Capitalist" in that the government directly owns or
otherwise controls a number of critical companies and industries and
dictates requirements to the rest.

As opposed to "Capitalist State" where the rich companies and
industries dictate requirements to the rest?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Jack Bohn
In this future, it's obvious that only socialist societies can
survive and achieve spaceflight, and of course they could trust
each other.

As exemplified by, say, the mistrust between the Soviet Union and
China, between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, or the full-blown
war between the Khmer Rouge and Vietnam.

Well, the story under discussion is *fiction.*

Whether the author really believed the assumption Jack describes
above, or merely thought it wise to write as though he believed
it, is like discussing what song the Sirens sang,* or what name
Achilles used when he hid among women.

_____
*Although we do have a transcription of sorts, in the Odyssey, of
what song the two sirens sang to Odysseus: they told him they
knew everything, and would tell all of it to him. In other
words, they'd sing to every victim whatever he most wanted. I
got a story out of that once.

[Ahasuerus]

Post by Jack Bohn

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

I only have a description to go by, but there was a Russian story,
"The Heart of the Serpent." (I can look it up, now, it's title should really
be "Cor Serpentis" (in Cyrillic)

The original title was "Cor Serpentis (Сердце Змеи)", i.e. it used a mix
of Latin and Russian -- see https://fantlab.ru/work13724

Post by Jack Bohn
after the constellation, by Ivan Yefremov, and has had only one
English publication.) [snip]

There were two English translations, one by R. Prokofieva (1961) and
the other one by Doris Johnson (1963). Each one appeared in multiple
publications -- see http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?925930 for
details.

[Jack Bohn]

Post by Ahasuerus

Post by Jack Bohn
I only have a description to go by, but there was a Russian story,
"The Heart of the Serpent." (I can look it up, now, it's title should really
be "Cor Serpentis" (in Cyrillic)

The original title was "Cor Serpentis (Сердце Змеи)", i.e. it used a mix
of Latin and Russian -- see https://fantlab.ru/work13724

Post by Jack Bohn
after the constellation, by Ivan Yefremov, and has had only one
English publication.) [snip]

There were two English translations, one by R. Prokofieva (1961) and
the other one by Doris Johnson (1963). Each one appeared in multiple
publications -- see http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?925930 for
details.

Ah, I see what I did wrong. Entering "heart of the serpent" as a Fiction Title took me to:
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?97913
Although out of curiosity I clicked through to the series of which it was a part, I didn't check the title it was a variant of.
How did the search decided not to take me to
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?97218
is something I confess I do not understand.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:56:44 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus

Post by Jack Bohn

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

I only have a description to go by, but there was a Russian story,
"The Heart of the Serpent." (I can look it up, now, it's title should really
be "Cor Serpentis" (in Cyrillic)

The original title was "Cor Serpentis (?????? ????)", i.e. it used a mix
of Latin and Russian -- see https://fantlab.ru/work13724

I found that confusing until I found this note in the link you give
below:

Note: The original Russian title, Cor Serpentis (?????? ????), reads
Cor Serpentis (Serdtse Zmei), "Cor Serpentis (The Snake's Heart)".

which clarifies what you are saying quite well.

Post by Jack Bohn
after the constellation, by Ivan Yefremov, and has had only one
English publication.) [snip]

There were two English translations, one by R. Prokofieva (1961) and
the other one by Doris Johnson (1963). Each one appeared in multiple
publications -- see http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?925930 for
details.

[Paul S Person]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:48:58 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

People keep making such claims as if it were a self-evident truth.
I have no idea what "morally ahead" is even supposed to mean. It
presupposes that there is an ordering or a metric to ethics. That
is a giant assumption, based on... nothing? An article of faith?

I would interpret it as meaning that a culture that indulges in
capital punishment is /morally behind/ a culture that does not.

Or, in ST terms, they would have Prime Directive -- and follow it.

If you think that "evolutionarily more advanced" is an iffy concept,
then "morally ahead" should really trigger your objection.
Charles Pellegrino offers a less naive view of what we can reasonably
1. Their survival will be more important than our survival.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they
won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case;
species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.
2. Wimps don't become top dogs.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species
in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent,
alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.
3. They will assume that the first two laws apply to us.
(Quoted from _The Killing Star_.)

[William Hyde]

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

Where did he say this? I recall something of the kind as a speculation,
or something that was likely. I do not recall his propounding it as
a law.

It is, of course, possible we're not remembering the same passage. He
wrote a lot and his ideas evolved over time.

William Hyde

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by William Hyde

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

Where did he say this? I recall something of the kind as a speculation,
or something that was likely. I do not recall his propounding it as
a law.

Making it to space may not be the panacea it is made out to be,
at least not in time, absent handwavium.

https://escholarship.org/uc/energy_ambitions

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Quadibloc

Be careful what you wish for. The Klingons don't have a Prime
Directive.

But as Arthur C. Clarke has clearly explained, aggressive species
destroy themselves before going into space; any advanced race
that reaches Earth will be highly benevolent, morally ahead of us
as well as technologically!

Where did he say this? I recall something of the kind as a speculation,
or something that was likely. I do not recall his propounding it as
a law.
It is, of course, possible we're not remembering the same passage. He
wrote a lot and his ideas evolved over time.

There's _Childhood's End_ of course.

But otherwise, if humans are meeting super advanced
aliens, then the aliens must be benevolent, because if
the aliens are not benevolent, then the humans will be
wiped out before they can finish forming the thought,
"Conceivably, these super advanced aliens are
not bene

[Ahasuerus]

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/
The only reason [Arkady and Boris Strugatsky’s “Hard to Be a God” is]
in a footnote is because the field agents stick to the rules and this is
about books where they do not.

I think it could be plausibly argued that the mountain of corpses at the
end of the book counts as not sticking to the non-interference rules.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by James Nicoll
Five SF Stories About Disobeying Non-Interference Directives
https://www.tor.com/2021/07/19/five-sf-stories-about-disobeying-non-interference-directives/

I think that I read "Decision at Doona" in the distant past but am not sure.

Lynn