What do people here use as an IDE?

[Michael Stover]

Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

-Mike
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[Jimmy Cao]

I'm by no means an "actual D programmer" but I like to use Code::Blocks.
I've heard VisualD and Descent are also very nice.
There's also a guy working on D.dev (
http://d-dev-ide.blogspot.com/2010/07/ddev-progress-july-2010.html).

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

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[Michael Stover]

Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for me.
Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Do you use a plugin for Code::Blocks specific for D?

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm by no means an "actual D programmer" but I like to use Code::Blocks.
I've heard VisualD and Descent are also very nice.
There's also a guy working on D.dev (
http://d-dev-ide.blogspot.com/2010/07/ddev-progress-july-2010.html).
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Michael Stover <

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

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[Jimmy Cao]

On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.
Do you use a plugin for Code::Blocks specific for D?

On Windows, it's part of the standard installation, just check the option
for D syntax highlighting in the installer. Unfortunately, I never program
on Linux because none of my friends run Linux :/, so I'm not sure. There's
some limited code completion support because of D's similarity to C++, I
guess.
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[Clark Gaebel]

Doesn't really count as an IDE, but I use vim for all development, and
the d-syntax package from the d overlay in gentoo portage was all I
really needed to get started.

Kudos to the maintainer of the d portage overlay by the way. Your work
is appreciated!

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm by no means an "actual D programmer" but I like to use Code::Blocks.
I've heard VisualD and Descent are also very nice.
There's also a guy working on D.dev (
http://d-dev-ide.blogspot.com/2010/07/ddev-progress-july-2010.html).
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

[Michael Stover]

Seems to me if D really wants to compete, a modern IDE is essential.

Post by Clark Gaebel
Doesn't really count as an IDE, but I use vim for all development, and
the d-syntax package from the d overlay in gentoo portage was all I
really needed to get started.
Kudos to the maintainer of the d portage overlay by the way. Your work
is appreciated!

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm by no means an "actual D programmer" but I like to use Code::Blocks.
I've heard VisualD and Descent are also very nice.
There's also a guy working on D.dev (
http://d-dev-ide.blogspot.com/2010/07/ddev-progress-july-2010.html).
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is

still

Post by Jimmy Cao

Post by Michael Stover
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

--
Regards,
-- Clark

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[bearophile]

Post by Michael Stover
Seems to me if D really wants to compete, a modern IDE is essential.

You have no idea how many "essential" things are required to "compete" ;-)
But language design, std library and compiler come first. If you compiler has too many bugs, an IDE will not save you.

Bye,
bearophile

[so]

Don't take it personal but this is one of those :
"if D really wants to compete, a <insert anything you like> is essential."

C doesn't have one, neither C++, nor assembly. There are IDE's for them
yes but again, these languages don't have an actual IDE, IDE's are useful
mostly for form based or corporate languages, you know those.

D got everything it needs, and much more to compete, oh just forget it,
there is no competition here, for its target audience D is the best. If
someone is going to use C++ after D gets done, by choice, it is not
because D is bad, because he is.

I personally don't give a damn about IDE, gui and such. What actually
matters is shared library support, 64bit support and so on.

Thanks.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 05:16:14 +0300, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Seems to me if D really wants to compete, a modern IDE is essential.

[Jimmy Cao]

2010/10/12 so <so at so.do>

Post by so
"if D really wants to compete, a <insert anything you like> is essential."
C doesn't have one, neither C++, nor assembly. There are IDE's for them yes
but again, these languages don't have an actual IDE, IDE's are useful mostly
for form based or corporate languages, you know those.

I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.
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[so]

I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...

Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.

C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.

If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

[Jimmy Cao]

I agree with you very much here. GUI libraries and IDE support are very low
priority items for D.
It would be a sad day for everyone if the people working on the dmd and
Phobos dropped their current work and started working on an IDE.
So, low priority doesn't mean it can't be done until the higher priority
items are resolved.
The D community is multi-threaded :).
While Mr. Bright works on 64-bit support, other people can be writing an
IDE, writing an awesome GUI library like QtD, etc.
That way, many things can be accomplished. The more tooling support D has,
the more appealing it sounds to those people who rely on tools for
development.

2010/10/12 so <so at so.do>

Post by so
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

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[Paulo Pinto]

Of course it did not require one.

On those days GUIs were rare, and if you want to develop for Unix, C was
the only option.

C got famous because of Unix. C on its own would never had survived as a
language.

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[so]

Well, same goes for C++, year 2010 and we are not getting a standard gui
library (not saying it is necessary)

For the second part, C might owe its fame to Unix, i don't know it is true
or not. But you have to admit it is a great language. Still there are many
C programmers out there and i am sure they got their reasons to use it,
quite valid reasons. I would use it over any language out there if there
wasn't C++.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:20:41 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Of course it did not require one.
On those days GUIs were rare, and if you want to develop for Unix, C was
the only option.
C got famous because of Unix. C on its own would never had survived as a
language.

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Paulo Pinto]

That is only because the standard comitee does not want to favour a
vendor over the other. And usually the standards comitee for C and
C++ only make part of the standard existing practices.

C is the responsible for many of the security exploits we have to endure
nowadays.

The last time I used professionally was back in 2001, and I sure don't
miss it.

C keeps being used, partially due to legacy reasons, and partially because
if you want to invent some kind of high level assembler, the result will
always
resemble somehow to C.

If it wasn't for C++, there are plenty of other powerfull languages out
there.

--
Paulo

Post by so
Well, same goes for C++, year 2010 and we are not getting a standard gui
library (not saying it is necessary)
For the second part, C might owe its fame to Unix, i don't know it is true
or not. But you have to admit it is a great language. Still there are many
C programmers out there and i am sure they got their reasons to use it,
quite valid reasons. I would use it over any language out there if there
wasn't C++.
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:20:41 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Of course it did not require one.
On those days GUIs were rare, and if you want to develop for Unix, C was
the only option.
C got famous because of Unix. C on its own would never had survived as a
language.

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[so]

Name one?

Post by Paulo Pinto
If it wasn't for C++, there are plenty of other powerfull languages out
there.
--
Paulo

Post by so
Well, same goes for C++, year 2010 and we are not getting a standard gui
library (not saying it is necessary)
For the second part, C might owe its fame to Unix, i don't know it is true
or not. But you have to admit it is a great language. Still there are many
C programmers out there and i am sure they got their reasons to use it,
quite valid reasons. I would use it over any language out there if there
wasn't C++.
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:20:41 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Of course it did not require one.
On those days GUIs were rare, and if you want to develop for Unix, C was
the only option.
C got famous because of Unix. C on its own would never had survived as a
language.

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Paulo Pinto]

Haskell, F#, C#, Scala, Ada, just to name a few.

Post by so
Name one?

Post by Paulo Pinto
If it wasn't for C++, there are plenty of other powerfull languages out
there.
--
Paulo

Post by so
Well, same goes for C++, year 2010 and we are not getting a standard gui
library (not saying it is necessary)
For the second part, C might owe its fame to Unix, i don't know it is true
or not. But you have to admit it is a great language. Still there are many
C programmers out there and i am sure they got their reasons to use it,
quite valid reasons. I would use it over any language out there if there
wasn't C++.
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:20:41 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Of course it did not require one.
On those days GUIs were rare, and if you want to develop for Unix, C was
the only option.
C got famous because of Unix. C on its own would never had survived as a
language.

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Gary Whatmore]

Haskell, F#, Ada, just to name a few.

Ivory tower bu***it.

, C#, F#, Scala

Run in a VM ----> SLOW == impractical

- G.W.

[Clark Gaebel]

That's kind of useless flame.

Personally, I find Haskell to be a very beautiful (and useful) language.
Just because it isn't meant for all tasks doesn't mean its "ivory tower
bullshit". C#, F#, and Scala are all JITed, and JIT compilation has been
known to perform quite well in recent benchmarks. Even Java has the
potential to be "as fast as C".

Let's just stay on the topic of "best IDE" as opposed to "best language".

Post by Gary Whatmore

Haskell, F#, Ada, just to name a few.

Ivory tower bu***it.

, C#, F#, Scala

Run in a VM ----> SLOW == impractical
- G.W.

[Russel Winder]

Post by Gary Whatmore

Haskell, F#, Ada, just to name a few.

Ivory tower bu***it.

, C#, F#, Scala

Run in a VM ----> SLOW == impractical

This is either a simple intentional troll and therefore of zero value,
or you are showing some significant lack of knowledge on your part about
programming languages and their use in the real world. In either case
the world would a better place if you kept these sort of emotive and
unreasoned responses to yourself rather than share them.
--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: [phone] voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: [phone] xmpp: russel at russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
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[&quot;Jérôme M. Berger&quot;]

Post by Gary Whatmore

Haskell, F#, Ada, just to name a few.

Ivory tower bu***it.

Haskell, probably, F#, a bit young to say, Ada has been used in
large real-world projects (mostly where high reliability is required
like in the aerospace industry).

Post by Gary Whatmore

, C#, F#, Scala

Run in a VM ----> SLOW == impractical

The benchmarks are there to prove you wrong. Now if you had said
"Run in a VM -> Memory hog", you might have had a point...

Jerome
--
mailto:jeberger at free.fr
http://jeberger.free.fr
Jabber: jeberger at jabber.fr

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[so]

All these languages you named are useless for C/C++ audience.
They might be (i like Haskell) good for expressing certain kind of tasks.

Go write the next big OS/game/RT simulation/any performance related
project in any of those.

None of them are "system language".

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 00:24:00 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Haskell, F#, C#, Scala, Ada, just to name a few.

Post by so
Name one?

Post by Paulo Pinto
If it wasn't for C++, there are plenty of other powerfull languages out
there.
--
Paulo

Post by so
Well, same goes for C++, year 2010 and we are not getting a standard gui
library (not saying it is necessary)
For the second part, C might owe its fame to Unix, i don't know it is true
or not. But you have to admit it is a great language. Still there are many
C programmers out there and i am sure they got their reasons to use it,
quite valid reasons. I would use it over any language out there if there
wasn't C++.
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:20:41 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Of course it did not require one.
On those days GUIs were rare, and if you want to develop for Unix, C was
the only option.
C got famous because of Unix. C on its own would never had survived
as
a
language.

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come with
(at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

--
http://www.opera.com/mail/

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[retard]

Post by so
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 00:24:00 +0300, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp at progtools.org>

Post by Paulo Pinto
Haskell, F#, C#, Scala, Ada, just to name a few.

All these languages you named are useless for C/C++ audience. They might
be (i like Haskell) good for expressing certain kind of tasks.

When it comes to programming languages, the C/C++ audience isn't the
sharpest knife in the drawer. In fact they most likely reject any other
language if the syntax and semantics aren't 95% the same.

Post by so
Go write the next big OS/game/RT simulation/any performance related
project in any of those.
None of them are "system language".

What's your definition of a "system language"? Being able to write
operating systems, OS drivers, kernel mode applications, embedded small
footprint applications, server applications, games, simulations, HPC? If
you only need one of these domains in your project, why should you care
about the rest - the right tool for the job, right?

I'm guessing your definition is the one that makes functional languages
or imperative languages with different syntax from C/C+++ look bad and C/C
++ shine. Your agenda is to crush all competition because the retarded
competitors think *differently* and that's dangerous!

[so]

Post by retard
When it comes to programming languages, the C/C++ audience isn't the
sharpest knife in the drawer. In fact they most likely reject any other
language if the syntax and semantics aren't 95% the same.

I don't give a damn about syntax being C like or not, if it is good at
expressing things, that is enough for me. None of my posts here state
otherwise.

Post by retard
What's your definition of a "system language"? Being able to write
operating systems, OS drivers, kernel mode applications, embedded small
footprint applications, server applications, games, simulations, HPC? If
you only need one of these domains in your project, why should you care
about the rest - the right tool for the job, right?

It is right, right (and only) tool in those domains, and as you can see it
is kind of a large area.
None of those languages are the right tool in those areas, are they?

Post by retard
I'm guessing your definition is the one that makes functional languages
or imperative languages with different syntax from C/C+++ look bad and C/C
++ shine. Your agenda is to crush all competition because the retarded
competitors think *differently* and that's dangerous!

I said i like Haskell, also python... i am not an OOP fan. I don't have an
agenda to crash any competition. How did you get here beyond me...

Look, i said things like "OS" "C audience", "high performance", "system
language". Is that really hard to get?

[retard]

Post by so

Post by retard
What's your definition of a "system language"? Being able to write
operating systems, OS drivers, kernel mode applications, embedded small
footprint applications, server applications, games, simulations, HPC?
If you only need one of these domains in your project, why should you
care about the rest - the right tool for the job, right?

It is right, right (and only) tool in those domains, and as you can see
it is kind of a large area.
None of those languages are the right tool in those areas, are they?

I'm just saying that a single tool doesn't need to excel in all those
domains. Pick one problem and one language / set of languages for the
solution. Server programming and C# -- why not? I've even done that
commercially (nothing big, but anyway). Games in Scala -- doesn't sound
bad. It depends so much on the language's implementation.

Post by so

Post by retard
I'm guessing your definition is the one that makes functional languages
or imperative languages with different syntax from C/C+++ look bad and C/C
++ shine. Your agenda is to crush all competition because the retarded
competitors think *differently* and that's dangerous!

I said i like Haskell, also python... i am not an OOP fan. I don't have
an agenda to crash any competition. How did you get here beyond me...
Look, i said things like "OS" "C audience", "high performance", "system
language". Is that really hard to get?

'High performance' and 'system language' are both badly defined. From
historical perspective something that *was* fast 30 years ago can't
nowadays compete with sofware written in the slower languages. In the
Java world the same binary might run faster on a more recent VM, but this
isn't the case with proprietary native executables. There's no single
answer to the question.

For example, is LLVM a good tool for high performance code? Does it have
lots of potential? I think it does. I think it's one of the best tools
for the job -- even funnier, the Glasgow Haskell is using LLVM as its
backend.

[bearophile]

Post by retard
'High performance' and 'system language' are both badly defined.

I agree, for some people 'high performance' means the automatic slicing and tiling of loops as done by advanced Fortran compilers, something that C/C++ compiler have just started to do a bit, and are far from doing well still.

High performance also means using the SIMD instructions efficiently, and not even the Intel C++ compiler (that about this is better than G++) is doing that well yet. That's why high-performance kernels in GNU radio, video decoders, Golomb ruler finders, etc often need to be handwritten.

On the other hand there are tools that allow you to write that maximally efficient code using Python:
http://www.corepy.org/

And don't forget that today high-performance sometimes means using highly parallel code on the GPU:
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyopencl/0.90

Post by retard
For example, is LLVM a good tool for high performance code?

LLVM is getting better, but it will need several more years to go be there. For high-performance numerical code it's not yet as good as GCC (it doesn't even vectorize code), and on this kind of code GCC is less efficient than the Intel compiler.

Bye,
bearophile

[Russel Winder]

On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 07:58 -0400, bearophile wrote:
[ . . . ]

Post by bearophile
I agree, for some people 'high performance' means the automatic
slicing and tiling of loops as done by advanced Fortran compilers,
something that C/C++ compiler have just started to do a bit, and are
far from doing well still.

There is also the issue that much of the HPC community is hobbled with
1960s Fortran code that they have to make work in parallel as they
cannot justify the expense of rewriting the codes.

Post by bearophile
High performance also means using the SIMD instructions efficiently,
and not even the Intel C++ compiler (that about this is better than G
++) is doing that well yet. That's why high-performance kernels in GNU
radio, video decoders, Golomb ruler finders, etc often need to be
handwritten.

[ . . . ]

And there is the issue of the right level at which the programmer
expresses things. Part of the problem for Fortran codes in the past was
that programmers had written their loops using the tools available, and
this made parallelization a nightmare. This rapidly let not just to
some extremely clever compiler techniques, but also to the introduction
of whole array operations at the language level.

Something similar is happening in C++: Threading Building Blocks
introduces what is effectively a functional DSL for describing parallel
computations. In all the little microbenchmarks I have tried using C, C
++, Fortran, D, Go, Java, Scala, etc. C++ with TBB is currently the
market leader for CPU bound systems on single machine multiple multicore
processors. If D could get to the same level of performance, life would
be much better. (NB "levels of performance" here is a complicated
issue, the previous statement does have the danger of being taken as
over-trivializing things.)
--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: [phone] voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: [phone] xmpp: russel at russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
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[so]

A language should not limit you, some people might like it, i don't.

No need to waste time on this, if you believe those languages can do
things that you say, write a simple but competitive ray/pathtracer. No
need to use sse or any fancy stuff, just bare compiler with its standard
library, compare with those out there. If it outperforms the ones out
there, i will be the first one to switch, why would i stay? I know C++'s
shortcomings more than those language fans that actually don't code but
talk :)

Post by retard

Post by so

Post by retard
What's your definition of a "system language"? Being able to write
operating systems, OS drivers, kernel mode applications, embedded small
footprint applications, server applications, games, simulations, HPC?
If you only need one of these domains in your project, why should you
care about the rest - the right tool for the job, right?

It is right, right (and only) tool in those domains, and as you can see
it is kind of a large area.
None of those languages are the right tool in those areas, are they?

I'm just saying that a single tool doesn't need to excel in all those
domains. Pick one problem and one language / set of languages for the
solution. Server programming and C# -- why not? I've even done that
commercially (nothing big, but anyway). Games in Scala -- doesn't sound
bad. It depends so much on the language's implementation.

Post by so

Post by retard
I'm guessing your definition is the one that makes functional languages
or imperative languages with different syntax from C/C+++ look bad and C/C
++ shine. Your agenda is to crush all competition because the retarded
competitors think *differently* and that's dangerous!

I said i like Haskell, also python... i am not an OOP fan. I don't have
an agenda to crash any competition. How did you get here beyond me...
Look, i said things like "OS" "C audience", "high performance", "system
language". Is that really hard to get?

'High performance' and 'system language' are both badly defined. From
historical perspective something that *was* fast 30 years ago can't
nowadays compete with sofware written in the slower languages. In the
Java world the same binary might run faster on a more recent VM, but this
isn't the case with proprietary native executables. There's no single
answer to the question.
For example, is LLVM a good tool for high performance code? Does it have
lots of potential? I think it does. I think it's one of the best tools
for the job -- even funnier, the Glasgow Haskell is using LLVM as its
backend.

[Justin Johansson]

Post by so
A language should not limit you, some people might like it, i don't.

Render your programming opus in Assembler then. There are no
limitations in what you can do in Assembly Language and, to a lesser
degree, in slightly higher level languages/run-time engines such as
C, JVM or LLVM. (Naturally, with every deeper level of abstraction
there is likely the possibility of encountering some kind of
limitation.)

A typical limitation that one might encounter in a higher level
language is the ability to render tail call optimization, for just
one example.

FWIW and ASAIK, D limits one from what can be done in both Assembler
and C. C also limits one from what can be done in Assembler.

What really is your point?

Cheers
Justin Johansson

[so]

It looks to me that you are the one without a point here, why do you reply
a line but ignore the part that matters? :)

Post by Justin Johansson

Post by so
A language should not limit you, some people might like it, i don't.

Render your programming opus in Assembler then. There are no
limitations in what you can do in Assembly Language and, to a lesser
degree, in slightly higher level languages/run-time engines such as
C, JVM or LLVM. (Naturally, with every deeper level of abstraction
there is likely the possibility of encountering some kind of
limitation.)
A typical limitation that one might encounter in a higher level
language is the ability to render tail call optimization, for just
one example.
FWIW and ASAIK, D limits one from what can be done in both Assembler
and C. C also limits one from what can be done in Assembler.
What really is your point?
Cheers
Justin Johansson

[Justin Johansson]

Post by so
It looks to me that you are the one without a point here, why do you
reply a line but ignore the part that matters? :)

Maybe you are right and, even though I reread your OP, I missed your
salient point. Can your please rephrase so that I can sync on your
channel, either to ultimately concert with or counter.

Thanks, Justin

[Peter Alexander]

Post by so
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come
with (at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

C didn't need a GUI library because there was no competition with a GUI
library.

Like it or not, in this day and age, people expect GUI libraries and
IDEs. In fact, most programmers have no idea how to compile code without
an IDE. Moreover, most people think that the IDE and the language are
the *same thing* (evidenced by the number of people that tag their C++
theory questions as "visual studio" on stackoverflow.com).

I agree that solving the compiler bugs and language issues are top
priority, but after that, I'd say IDE and GUI library come next (doesn't
have to be a standard GUI library -- just any robust library).

[Russel Winder]

On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 08:07 +0100, Peter Alexander wrote:
[ . . . ]

Post by Peter Alexander
Like it or not, in this day and age, people expect GUI libraries and
IDEs. In fact, most programmers have no idea how to compile code without
an IDE. Moreover, most people think that the IDE and the language are
the *same thing* (evidenced by the number of people that tag their C++
theory questions as "visual studio" on stackoverflow.com).

In the JVM-based milieu, Eclipse, NetBeans, and IntelliJ IDEA are the
market leaders. All of these have C, C++, and Python modes as well as
the Java, Scala, Groovy, Clojure modes.

In the C and C++ world I would guess Visual Studio is the market leader
followed by Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ IDEA, Code::Blocks, then all the
proprietary embedded systems IDEs.

I suggest that in this polyglot world, having a high quality plugin for
these market leader IDEs is a better choice than trying to create a new
IDE even if it is written in D -- using QtD obviously :-)

Personally I am an Emacs and command line person, but the tide of "no
IDE, no ability to work" is beginning to have its effect, and I am a
more and more frequent user of Eclipse, NetBeans and IntelliJ IDEA for
all languages I work with.

(I guess we could start a Vim vs Emacs fight, but even if carried out
with fun and good humour, which I think it would be on this list, it
would be an essentially useless activity, as the IDE generation
generally view all Vim and Emacs users as quaintly old-fashioned.)

Post by Peter Alexander
I agree that solving the compiler bugs and language issues are top
priority, but after that, I'd say IDE and GUI library come next (doesn't
have to be a standard GUI library -- just any robust library).

Does it have to be either or? What is needed is for the 64-bit
capability to be the highest priority, but the people tackling that are
not alone in being developers in the D milieu. Others need to "step up
to the plate" and do stuff. Especially people in companies who can get
some time allocated to D infrastructure development. The crucial lesson
from the recent JVM world paradigm shift is that corporate support is
critical to success. This doesn't mean cash, this means resource in
kind, i.e. programmer time.

Personally, I don't have the time just now to actively develop
infrastructure, but I can volunteer as an Emacs mode tester (and
possibly occasional bug fixer), Eclipse plugin tester, NetBeans plugin
tester, and IntelliJ IDEA plugin tester.
--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: [phone] voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: [phone] xmpp: russel at russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
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[Jacob Carlborg]

Post by Russel Winder
[ . . . ]

Post by Peter Alexander
Like it or not, in this day and age, people expect GUI libraries and
IDEs. In fact, most programmers have no idea how to compile code without
an IDE. Moreover, most people think that the IDE and the language are
the *same thing* (evidenced by the number of people that tag their C++
theory questions as "visual studio" on stackoverflow.com).

In the JVM-based milieu, Eclipse, NetBeans, and IntelliJ IDEA are the
market leaders. All of these have C, C++, and Python modes as well as
the Java, Scala, Groovy, Clojure modes.
In the C and C++ world I would guess Visual Studio is the market leader
followed by Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ IDEA, Code::Blocks, then all the
proprietary embedded systems IDEs.
I suggest that in this polyglot world, having a high quality plugin for
these market leader IDEs is a better choice than trying to create a new
IDE even if it is written in D -- using QtD obviously :-)
Personally I am an Emacs and command line person, but the tide of "no
IDE, no ability to work" is beginning to have its effect, and I am a
more and more frequent user of Eclipse, NetBeans and IntelliJ IDEA for
all languages I work with.
(I guess we could start a Vim vs Emacs fight, but even if carried out
with fun and good humour, which I think it would be on this list, it
would be an essentially useless activity, as the IDE generation
generally view all Vim and Emacs users as quaintly old-fashioned.)

Post by Peter Alexander
I agree that solving the compiler bugs and language issues are top
priority, but after that, I'd say IDE and GUI library come next (doesn't
have to be a standard GUI library -- just any robust library).

Does it have to be either or? What is needed is for the 64-bit
capability to be the highest priority, but the people tackling that are
not alone in being developers in the D milieu. Others need to "step up
to the plate" and do stuff. Especially people in companies who can get
some time allocated to D infrastructure development. The crucial lesson
from the recent JVM world paradigm shift is that corporate support is
critical to success. This doesn't mean cash, this means resource in
kind, i.e. programmer time.
Personally, I don't have the time just now to actively develop
infrastructure, but I can volunteer as an Emacs mode tester (and
possibly occasional bug fixer), Eclipse plugin tester, NetBeans plugin
tester, and IntelliJ IDEA plugin tester.

I would like to add that the Xcode 4 looks really really good. It has
Clang integrated in the IDE and uses it for code completion, static
analyzer and similar things.

[Bruno Medeiros]

Post by Peter Alexander

Post by so
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come
with (at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

C didn't need a GUI library because there was no competition with a GUI
library.
Like it or not, in this day and age, people expect GUI libraries and
IDEs. In fact, most programmers have no idea how to compile code without
an IDE. Moreover, most people think that the IDE and the language are
the *same thing* (evidenced by the number of people that tag their C++
theory questions as "visual studio" on stackoverflow.com).
I agree that solving the compiler bugs and language issues are top
priority, but after that, I'd say IDE and GUI library come next (doesn't
have to be a standard GUI library -- just any robust library).

I would a say a modern IDE, together with other toolchain programs
(debugger, build tools) are much more important than a GUI library. This
due to the fact that they would be used by many more developers than
those who would want to use a GUI library.

[Bruno Medeiros]

Post by so
I guess it is wording.
Hmm say...
Does Java come with a standard gui library? Yes.
Does C come with a standard gui library? No.
C didn't need a gui library to be successful, and didn't come with one.
On the other hand Java/C# have to have one, packed, and they do come
with (at least)one.
If your language has a "system programming" in its feature lists, these
kind of libraries have very low priority, let alone specific IDE.

Post by Jimmy Cao
I'm not quite understanding your argument.
C and C++ do have *actual* IDE's for them, such as Visual Studio.

It's incorrect wording, plain and simple. D != DMD, no one was
suggesting DMD should come bundled with an IDE...

[Robert Jacques]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:11:33 -0400, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me.
Poseidon is also Windows-only.
Do you use a plugin for Code::Blocks specific for D?

Code::blocks supports D out of the box. No plugin required.

[Anders F Björklund]

Post by Robert Jacques

Post by Michael Stover
Do you use a plugin for Code::Blocks specific for D?

Code::blocks supports D out of the box. No plugin required.

The Code::Blocks 8.02 and 10.05 releases support DMD and GDC...

LDC support has been added too, in the latest "Nightly builds".

--anders

[Eric Poggel]

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity
(http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

[Jimmy Cao]

Perhaps it's just like D 1.0 and it's only in maintenance mode, until DDT
officially releases.

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity (
http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

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[Michael Stover]

Read it's home page. In bold letters, it says *This project is dead. Please
use http://code.google.com/a/eclipselabs.org/p/ddt/*
*
*
*I take them at the word since I don't know any better :-)
*

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity (
http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

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[Bruno Medeiros]

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity
(http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

Descent, the IDE is indeed abandoned, but one of its components, the DMD
parser Java port, which resides in the descent.compiler plugin, is still
used by DDT. (although in maintenance mode only)

Most of that SVN activity is for Mmrnmhrm (now DDT) which was hosted in
the same location as Descent up to 09/23/10. The remaining activity is
for descent.compiler which is still hosted at the Descent repository.

[dolive]

Post by Bruno Medeiros

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity
(http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

Descent, the IDE is indeed abandoned, but one of its components, the DMD
parser Java port, which resides in the descent.compiler plugin, is still
used by DDT. (although in maintenance mode only)
Most of that SVN activity is for Mmrnmhrm (now DDT) which was hosted in
the same location as Descent up to 09/23/10. The remaining activity is
for descent.compiler which is still hosted at the Descent repository.
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer

Why not continue to maintenance the descent, but to re to develop ddt ??If you add creative to descent of ddt, will be better, more conservation of resources.

thank's

dolive

[Bruno Medeiros]

Post by dolive

Post by Bruno Medeiros

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity
(http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

Descent, the IDE is indeed abandoned, but one of its components, the DMD
parser Java port, which resides in the descent.compiler plugin, is still
used by DDT. (although in maintenance mode only)
Most of that SVN activity is for Mmrnmhrm (now DDT) which was hosted in
the same location as Descent up to 09/23/10. The remaining activity is
for descent.compiler which is still hosted at the Descent repository.
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer

Why not continue to maintenance the descent, but to re to develop ddt ??If you add creative to descent of ddt, will be better, more conservation of resources.
thank's
dolive

http://code.google.com/a/eclipselabs.org/p/ddt/wiki/GeneralFAQ#Why_not_develop_Descent_instead_of_Mmrnmrhm/DDT?

[dolive]

Post by Bruno Medeiros

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a release.
Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD won't do for
me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity
(http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

Descent, the IDE is indeed abandoned, but one of its components, the DMD
parser Java port, which resides in the descent.compiler plugin, is still
used by DDT. (although in maintenance mode only)
Most of that SVN activity is for Mmrnmhrm (now DDT) which was hosted in
the same location as Descent up to 09/23/10. The remaining activity is
for descent.compiler which is still hosted at the Descent repository.
--
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer

d community too wasteful, too many compilers, too many ide, splitting the standard library

thank's

dolive

[retard]

Post by dolive

Post by Bruno Medeiros

Post by Michael Stover
Descent is a dead project, replaced by DDT which doesn't have a
release. Also, I'm running Linux at home and Mac at work, so VisualD
won't do for me. Poseidon is also Windows-only.

Descent is dead? The change log shows recent activity
(http://dsource.org/projects/descent/log/)

Descent, the IDE is indeed abandoned, but one of its components, the
DMD parser Java port, which resides in the descent.compiler plugin, is
still used by DDT. (although in maintenance mode only)
Most of that SVN activity is for Mmrnmhrm (now DDT) which was hosted in
the same location as Descent up to 09/23/10. The remaining activity is
for descent.compiler which is still hosted at the Descent repository.
--
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer

d community too wasteful, too many compilers, too many ide, splitting the standard library

Welcome to the real life. This is open source.

[bioinfornatics]

about compiler, for me:
- dmd is not full open source
- gdc is not a gcc project
- ldc is godd compiler but they are some unfixed bug left since a long time ei
gtkd build

so i choose ldc

About ide i use codeblocks and for build my project i use my own makefile system

[Iain Buclaw]

== Quote from bioinfornatics (bioinfornatics at fedoraproject.org)'s article

Post by bioinfornatics
- gdc is not a gcc project

How is that a valid excuse?

[bioinfornatics]

yes,
is not against you work, it is as a packager point of view.
while gdc will be not a gcc project, gdc can not be go in fedora.
and gdc do not follow gcc stable version because is not a gcc project ....
Same as said et start of this thread is not against your nice job.
I know for gdc becomme a gcc project gdc team need give is right.
But if you want really support gcc, you will need become a gcc project ...
why wait

[Iain Buclaw]

== Quote from bioinfornatics (bioinfornatics at fedoraproject.org)'s article

Post by bioinfornatics
yes,
is not against you work, it is as a packager point of view.
while gdc will be not a gcc project, gdc can not be go in fedora.

That's not how I understand it. Fedora ships GCC-4.5 (not 4.4), and will shortly
switch to 4.6. That is why it won't go in fedora.

Post by bioinfornatics
and gdc do not follow gcc stable version because is not a gcc project ....

Not really. I am a packager too (I maintain gdc in Debian and Ubuntu), and so far
I've been updating the GCC versions in cadence with the Ubuntu and Debian
releases. Natty will default to GCC-4.5, while the next Debian release will be
based on 4.6, so there is no urgent need for me to port to 4.5 just yet. But
depending on how quick FE merging goes, it could be that by February/April will be
updated to the current trunk.

If anyone wants to speed up the process, you know where to get the sources and
submit patches. :~)

Post by bioinfornatics
Same as said et start of this thread is not against your nice job.
I know for gdc becomme a gcc project gdc team need give is right.
But if you want really support gcc, you will need become a gcc project ...
why wait

And what if license becomes an issue? As far as I'm aware, all authors need to
have signed copyright assignment papers to donate gdc to the gcc project. It may
turn out that parts of GDC would probably need to be rewritten using a chinese
wall strategy (ie: so anyone who has seen the source code that is so licensed
should not be allowed to work on the implementation of the replacement) if one
such author refuses to sign.

And I'd dread to think about needing to clean-up the some 25,000 lines of code
that's maintained ( and that doesn't include Phobos or the DMDFE :)

Regards

[Adam D. Ruppe]

I use vim.

[Daniel Gibson]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

For Windows http://d-ide.sourceforge.net/ is probably great.
I use Geany (on Linux), but unfortunately it's not really an IDE.. autocompletion doesn't really
work (things get completed, but not smartly - it isn't aware of the type of a variable for example).

Currently I hope that http://d-dev-ide.blogspot.com/ will be as great as it looks.

[Iain Buclaw]

== Quote from Daniel Gibson (metalcaedes at gmail.com)'s article

Post by Daniel Gibson

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

For Windows http://d-ide.sourceforge.net/ is probably great.
I use Geany (on Linux), but unfortunately it's not really an IDE..

autocompletion doesn't really

Post by Daniel Gibson
work (things get completed, but not smartly - it isn't aware of the type of a

variable for example).

Post by Daniel Gibson
Currently I hope that http://d-dev-ide.blogspot.com/ will be as great as it looks.

Does vi support autocompletion for D?

If not, I can write a plugin for that...

[Eric Poggel]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

As an Eclipse fan (don't laugh!) I've been using Descent for a couple of
years now with good results. I think others here may use VisualD.

[Michael Stover]

Why would I laugh? I've been using Eclipse for nearly 10 years. Descent
claims to be a dead project, so I'm curious that you say you use it - what
version of Eclipse are you using with it? DDT is it's replacement and it
has no release.

Post by Eric Poggel

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

As an Eclipse fan (don't laugh!) I've been using Descent for a couple of
years now with good results. I think others here may use VisualD.

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[Eric Poggel]

Post by Michael Stover
Why would I laugh? I've been using Eclipse for nearly 10 years.
Descent claims to be a dead project, so I'm curious that you say you
use it - what version of Eclipse are you using with it? DDT is it's
replacement and it has no release.
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Eric Poggel <dnewsgroup2 at yage3d.net
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike
As an Eclipse fan (don't laugh!) I've been using Descent for a
couple of years now with good results. I think others here may use
VisualD.

I'm using it with Eclipse 3.5. I just recently found out it was dead.
It's been at least 6 months since I updated it--most things worked
pretty well so I didn't bother.

[Eric Poggel]

Post by Michael Stover
Why would I laugh?

A lot of people say eclipse is slow and bloated. Maybe it is, but it
has a lot of killer features.

[Jacob Carlborg]

Post by Michael Stover
Why would I laugh?

A lot of people say eclipse is slow and bloated. Maybe it is, but it has
a lot of killer features.

The start up time for Eclipse 3.6 has approved a lot compared to 3.5.

[retard]

Post by Eric Poggel

Post by Michael Stover
Why would I laugh?

A lot of people say eclipse is slow and bloated. Maybe it is, but it
has a lot of killer features.

We already discussed this a week or two ago. Eclipse *with useless
plugins disabled* works rather quickly on *modern* machines. That means,
on Sun Java 6/7 JVM and Eclipse 3.6. SWT performance depends on your
graphics drivers and also the SWT's libraries are improving constantly.
The JVM can make use of multiple cores (e.g. parallel garbage collection)
and over 1 GB of memory (remember to tune your jvm settings)! You can
also improve the slow startup times with a disk cache and/or raid-0 setup
and/or ssd disks. Surprising, eh?!

[BCS]

Hello Michael,

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

Real life has gotten in the way for a while but if, make that when, I go
back I expect I'll be using Beyond Compare. Yes it's a diff tool, not an
IDE but I find it really handy to edit a file in comparison to a reference
version.

[Jonathan M Davis]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I use vim (well, gvim technically). I'd love a full-blown IDE solution, but it
would have to have support for vim bindings (and support for remapping them - I
use dvorak and standard vim bindings won't cut it) or I wouldn't put up with it.
SlickEdit does have decent vim bindings support and it has support for D1, but
I'm not sure how well it supports D2. It costs about $300 though, so you'd have
to definitely think that its features were worth it to use it. I considered
getting it, but it doesn't yet support gdb with D, so I decided to wait. They'll
likely have better D2 support later as well, though I have no clue what plans
they have with regards to D support.

In any case, vim is the best solution that I have, but I'd certainly love
better.

- Jonathan M Davis

[Austin Hastings]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

From: patl at athena.mit.edu (Patrick J. LoPresti)
Subject: The True Path (long)
Date: 11 Jul 91 03:17:31 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs,alt.slack

When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi
*and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like,
'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor
that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time.

Ed, man! !man ed

ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1)

NAME
ed - text editor

SYNOPSIS
ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ]
DESCRIPTION
Ed is the standard text editor.
---

Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first
alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed
because it's ED!

"Ed is the standard text editor."

And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look:

-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed
-rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs

Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed.
Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog
message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K;
and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!!

"Ed is the standard text editor."

Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:

golem> ed

?
help
?
?
?
quit
?
exit
?
bye
?
hello?
?
eat flaming death
?
^C
?
^C
?
^D
?

---
Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is
generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
the novice with verbosity.

"Ed is the standard text editor."

Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all.

ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED
AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS
BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN
SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!!

When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless
help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!!
Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED!
ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!!

TEXT EDITOR.

When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their
"edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely
you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard.

Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you
are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should
not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE
SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE
FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!!

?

[Walter Bright]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

microEmacs

[so]

Editors are designed for specific people, editors :)
All IDE's out there i have seen based on these editors.

You ask what actual programmers use, they mostly use these editors, i was
one of those, and i curse those times. I am not an editor but a code
writer, two different things, and the difference is grand. There is only
one "editor" out there i know that actually targets coders is, gvim. If
you have time (and not a little), you should give it a try.

Thanks.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 04:57:44 +0300, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

[Nick Sabalausky]

"Michael Stover" <michael.r.stover at gmail.com> wrote in message

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

Programmer's Notepad 2 ( http://www.pnotepad.org/ )

I've tried a TON of different editors and IDE's and that's the only one that
doesn't irritate me. Small, fast, free, looks good, behaves well,
configurable, D syntax highlighting out-of-the-box.

[torhu]

"Michael Stover"<michael.r.stover at gmail.com> wrote in message

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

Programmer's Notepad 2 ( http://www.pnotepad.org/ )
I've tried a TON of different editors and IDE's and that's the only one that
doesn't irritate me. Small, fast, free, looks good, behaves well,
configurable, D syntax highlighting out-of-the-box.

I use that, too. When I need to debug, I use cv2pdb to create a .pdb
file, and then just do "vcexpress myapp.exe". If get some time to work
on my D projects again, I might look into VisualD. But it seems that D
is cursed when it comes to IDEs. Nothing I've tried so far has been
worth the trouble.

[Nick Sabalausky]

"torhu" <no at spam.invalid> wrote in message

Post by torhu

"Michael Stover"<michael.r.stover at gmail.com> wrote in message

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

Programmer's Notepad 2 ( http://www.pnotepad.org/ )
I've tried a TON of different editors and IDE's and that's the only one that
doesn't irritate me. Small, fast, free, looks good, behaves well,
configurable, D syntax highlighting out-of-the-box.

I use that, too. When I need to debug, I use cv2pdb to create a .pdb
file, and then just do "vcexpress myapp.exe".

I've spent so much time on games, web and embedded that I've gotten used to
printf-debugging, and when I do use a debugger I often find it to slow me
down. Nothing against debuggers, they can be nice, but printf-debugging has
the advantages of lower startup time, lower barrier-to-entry, and best of
all, being much better at stepping backwards in time (all you have to do is
look/scroll upwards).

Post by torhu
If get some time to work on my D projects again, I might look into
VisualD. But it seems that D is cursed when it comes to IDEs. Nothing
I've tried so far has been worth the trouble.

If it's support for contextual symbols (like code completion, etc) you're
looking for, the d2tags tool someone made awhile ago makes it possible for
PN2 to gain such support for D. It hasn't happened yet, but it looks like
it's coming (they've set it to "High" priority and set a milestone for it):

http://code.google.com/p/pnotepad/issues/detail?id=903

[Denis Koroskin]

Post by Nick Sabalausky
"Michael Stover" <michael.r.stover at gmail.com> wrote in message

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

Programmer's Notepad 2 ( http://www.pnotepad.org/ )
I've tried a TON of different editors and IDE's and that's the only one that
doesn't irritate me. Small, fast, free, looks good, behaves well,
configurable, D syntax highlighting out-of-the-box.

FWIW, Notepad++ has got an out-of-box D syntax highlighting support, too,
recently (both Notepad++ and PN2 are based on Scintilla).

[Nick Sabalausky]

"Denis Koroskin" <2korden at gmail.com> wrote in message

Post by Denis Koroskin

Post by Nick Sabalausky
"Michael Stover" <michael.r.stover at gmail.com> wrote in message

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

Programmer's Notepad 2 ( http://www.pnotepad.org/ )
I've tried a TON of different editors and IDE's and that's the only one that
doesn't irritate me. Small, fast, free, looks good, behaves well,
configurable, D syntax highlighting out-of-the-box.

FWIW, Notepad++ has got an out-of-box D syntax highlighting support, too,
recently (both Notepad++ and PN2 are based on Scintilla).

Yea, Scintilla's great. *Only* thing I'd change about it is that I really,
really wish it had support for elastic tabstops (
http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ ). Ever since I first read that
page, I've been itching to start using them. But aside from that one wish,
Scintilla's very well done.

[Matthias Pleh]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

win32 -> VisualD
linux -> CodeBlocks

[Denis Koroskin]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 05:57:44 +0400, Michael Stover

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I mostly use Notepad++ (Windows) for code editing (and Code::Blocks on
occasion).

[Olivier Pisano]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I use Visual D and JEdit.

Olivier.

[#ponce]

I've used Crimson Editor for a very long time (Aldacron too) because it's very easy to configure and create custom syntax files. Now Visual D got me.

[Lars T. Kyllingstad]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

My "IDE" is rather ad-hoc: I use Terminator (split-screen terminal app)
with vim in one panel and a shell in the other for running rdmd.

-Lars

[Juanjo Alvarez]

Elephant appears dead. ?Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a release yet. ?What do actual D programmers use?<div><br></div><div>-Mike</div>

I don't want to sound like one of those Unix condescending users (Loading Image...) but with Vim loaded with the plugins "project", "nerd_tree", "nerd_commenter", "yankring", "taglist", "ack", "mru" and "bufferexplorer" I don't feel the need for any (graphical) IDE.

[Jacob Carlborg]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

Still using Eclipse with Descent as the IDE and TextMate as an
lightweight editor.

[bearophile]

Post by Jimmy Cao
I agree with you very much here. GUI libraries and IDE support are very low
priority items for D.

Yet, here we have discussed few times features that help the creation of GUI toolkit (see as example the changes over C++ language done by QT).

----------------------

Post by Jimmy Cao
if you want to invent some kind of high level assembler, the result will always resemble somehow to C.<

Where low-level performance is important, and at the same time you need quite safe code, a language like ATS is an option, and it doesn't look a lot like C:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_%28programming_language%29

The ATS syntax looks very bad compared to C, but it's not bad if you keep into account how much you may use it to proof code. It's first of all a theorem proving language, that's often more efficient than C. It's for niche projects.

Bye,
bearophile

[Paulo Pinto]

Thanks for the hint.

Are you also aware of Habit?
http://www.galois.com/blog/2010/05/12/tech-talk-developing-good-habits-for-bare-metal-programming/

Post by bearophile
----------------------

Post by Jimmy Cao
if you want to invent some kind of high level assembler, the result will always resemble somehow to C.<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_%28programming_language%29
The ATS syntax looks very bad compared to C, but it's not bad if you keep into account how much you may use it to proof code. It's first of all a theorem proving language, that's often more efficient than C. It's for niche projects.
Bye,
bearophile

[bearophile]

Post by Paulo Pinto
Are you also aware of Habit?
http://www.galois.com/blog/2010/05/12/tech-talk-developing-good-habits-for-bare-metal-programming/

I saw the video about Habit, but I was not so impressed, it's a bit simplified Haskell variant fitter for low-level code. I haven't seen many new ideas inside it (while ATS is a very different thing).

Bye,
bearophile

[sybrandy]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I stick with Vim. Who needs anything else? :P

Casey

[Jonathan M Davis]

Post by sybrandy

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I stick with Vim. Who needs anything else? :P
Casey

Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and various
other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor in vim. It can
do many of them on some level, but for instance, while ctags does give you the
ability to jump to function declarations, it does quite poorly in the face of
identical variable names across files. There are a number of IDE features that I
would love to have and use but vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent
IDE, I'm always torn on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim)
generally wins out, but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too
useful. What I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

- Jonathan M Davis

[Russel Winder]

On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 16:24 -0700, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
[ . . . ]

Post by Jonathan M Davis
Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and various
other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor in vim. It can
do many of them on some level, but for instance, while ctags does give you the
ability to jump to function declarations, it does quite poorly in the face of
identical variable names across files. There are a number of IDE features that I
would love to have and use but vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent
IDE, I'm always torn on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim)
generally wins out, but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too
useful. What I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

Bizarrely the single feature that fails for me in Eclipse, NetBeans and
IntelliJ IDEA that I find the single most problematic feature in my
programming life -- which means Emacs remains the one true editor -- is
formatting comments. I seemingly cannot survive without the ability to
reformat the paragraphs of comment blocks to a given width. Emacs
handles this trivially in all languages I use for the modes I have. The
IDEs seem unable to provide the functionality. Usually they end up
reformatting my entire file to some bizarre formatting that is not the
one set up for the project. I appreciate that being able to trivially
create properly formatted comments is probably uniquely my problem
but . . .
--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: [phone] voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: [phone] xmpp: russel at russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder
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[&quot;Jérôme M. Berger&quot;]

Post by Russel Winder
[ . . . ]

Post by Jonathan M Davis
Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and various
other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor in vim. It can
do many of them on some level, but for instance, while ctags does give you the
ability to jump to function declarations, it does quite poorly in the face of
identical variable names across files. There are a number of IDE features that I
would love to have and use but vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent
IDE, I'm always torn on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim)
generally wins out, but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too
useful. What I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

Bizarrely the single feature that fails for me in Eclipse, NetBeans and
IntelliJ IDEA that I find the single most problematic feature in my
programming life -- which means Emacs remains the one true editor -- is
formatting comments. I seemingly cannot survive without the ability to
reformat the paragraphs of comment blocks to a given width. Emacs
handles this trivially in all languages I use for the modes I have. The
IDEs seem unable to provide the functionality. Usually they end up
reformatting my entire file to some bizarre formatting that is not the
one set up for the project. I appreciate that being able to trivially
create properly formatted comments is probably uniquely my problem
but . . .

Same here, no IDE I've seen is able to format code and comments as
well as (X)Emacs.

Jerome
--
mailto:jeberger at free.fr
http://jeberger.free.fr
Jabber: jeberger at jabber.fr

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[Andrei Alexandrescu]

Post by &quot;Jérôme M. Berger&quot;
Same here, no IDE I've seen is able to format code and comments as
well as (X)Emacs.

Yah. Emacs' formatting abilities are like real estate prices in Houston:
once you got calibrated to them, it's hard to move away.

Andrei

[Gour D.]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:59:10 -0500
Andrei> Yah. Emacs' formatting abilities are like real estate prices in
Andrei> Houston: once you got calibrated to them, it's hard to move
Andrei> away.

It looks there is no perfect IDE for D available (yet) - Qt is missing
D support, Codeblocks lacks integration with e.g. QtD...so now when
we'll start learning D (when will this TDPL arrive), I think I may
just continue using Emacs, but I wonder if you (D users using Emacs)
can recommend what would be the best code-completion system for it?


Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA
----------------------------------------------------------------
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[Bruno Medeiros]

Post by &quot;Jérôme M. Berger&quot;

Post by Russel Winder
[ . . . ]

Post by Jonathan M Davis
Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and various
other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor in vim. It can
do many of them on some level, but for instance, while ctags does give you the
ability to jump to function declarations, it does quite poorly in the face of
identical variable names across files. There are a number of IDE features that I
would love to have and use but vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent
IDE, I'm always torn on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim)
generally wins out, but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too
useful. What I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

Bizarrely the single feature that fails for me in Eclipse, NetBeans and
IntelliJ IDEA that I find the single most problematic feature in my
programming life -- which means Emacs remains the one true editor -- is
formatting comments. I seemingly cannot survive without the ability to
reformat the paragraphs of comment blocks to a given width. Emacs
handles this trivially in all languages I use for the modes I have. The
IDEs seem unable to provide the functionality. Usually they end up
reformatting my entire file to some bizarre formatting that is not the
one set up for the project. I appreciate that being able to trivially
create properly formatted comments is probably uniquely my problem
but . . .

Same here, no IDE I've seen is able to format code and comments as
well as (X)Emacs.
Jerome

Interesting. For anyone else who shares that opinion, what are the IDE's
that you have seen? In particular, does this include JDT?

[&quot;Jérôme M. Berger&quot;]

Post by Bruno Medeiros

Post by &quot;Jérôme M. Berger&quot;
Same here, no IDE I've seen is able to format code and comments as
well as (X)Emacs.
Jerome

Interesting. For anyone else who shares that opinion, what are the IDE's
that you have seen? In particular, does this include JDT?

Well, I don't do any Java development, but it does include CDT...

Jerome
--
mailto:jeberger at free.fr
http://jeberger.free.fr
Jabber: jeberger at jabber.fr

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[retard]

Post by Jonathan M Davis

Post by sybrandy

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I stick with Vim. Who needs anything else? :P
Casey

Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and
various other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor
in vim. It can do many of them on some level, but for instance, while
ctags does give you the ability to jump to function declarations, it
does quite poorly in the face of identical variable names across files.
There are a number of IDE features that I would love to have and use but
vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent IDE, I'm always torn
on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim) generally wins out,
but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too useful. What
I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

I found this with a bit of googling: http://eclim.org/

[Jimmy Cao]

Seems to be mainly for Java development.

Post by retard

Post by Jonathan M Davis

Post by sybrandy

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I stick with Vim. Who needs anything else? :P
Casey

Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and
various other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor
in vim. It can do many of them on some level, but for instance, while
ctags does give you the ability to jump to function declarations, it
does quite poorly in the face of identical variable names across files.
There are a number of IDE features that I would love to have and use but
vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent IDE, I'm always torn
on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim) generally wins out,
but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too useful. What
I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

I found this with a bit of googling: http://eclim.org/

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[sybrandy]

Post by retard

Post by Jonathan M Davis

Post by sybrandy

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is
still alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't
have a release yet. What do actual D programmers use?
-Mike

I stick with Vim. Who needs anything else? :P
Casey

Proper code completion, correctly jumping to function definitions, and
various other features that IDEs generally do well tend to be quite poor
in vim. It can do many of them on some level, but for instance, while
ctags does give you the ability to jump to function declarations, it
does quite poorly in the face of identical variable names across files.
There are a number of IDE features that I would love to have and use but
vim can't properly pull off. When I have a decent IDE, I'm always torn
on whether to use vim or the IDE. vim (well, gvim) generally wins out,
but sometimes the extra abilities of the IDE are just too useful. What
I'd really like is full-featured IDE with complete and completely
remappable vim bindings.

I said that somewhat jokingly as I know that there are a ton of features
that IDEs do provide. I just really hate them because they tend to be
bloated and I tend to type faster than the autocomplete. Also, when
working with a laptop or Linux command line from time to time, it's good
to not have to rely on a mouse or software that needs to be installed.

Post by retard
I found this with a bit of googling: http://eclim.org/

I hated eclim. I found Vrapper to be much nicer as it just gave me most
of Vim without doing things in a strange manner.

http://vrapper.sourceforge.net/home/

Casey

[Sönke Ludwig]

Code::Blocks:

Works quite well for Windows and Linux, except for some occasional
dependency problems because of single-file compilation. Unusable on Mac
because of keyboard shortcut issues. Project and build option
configuration is a bit complicated and the toolchain-settings need to be
tweaked manually.

VisualD:

Now seems quite stable and works well, good debugger integration. Right
now I have to switch back to Code::Blocks on Windows because of DMD
linking problems in the compile-everything-at-once-build that VisualD
does (normally preferrable).

D for XCode:

Works really well for me on Mac OS since I took the time to understand
the XCode project structure. It has, however, some serious problems with
its dependency calculation and also does only single-file builds.

I tried Descent several times and its semantic features were great, but
the missing D2 support was always a problem.

[Anders F Björklund]

Post by Sönke Ludwig
Works quite well for Windows and Linux, except for some occasional
dependency problems because of single-file compilation. Unusable on Mac
because of keyboard shortcut issues. Project and build option
configuration is a bit complicated and the toolchain-settings need to be
tweaked manually.

Some Mac OS X keyboard shortcut issues were fixed in "10.05-p1"...

If you are talking about the optional-but-default keybinder plugin.

--anders

[Sönke Ludwig]

Post by Anders F Björklund

Post by Sönke Ludwig
Works quite well for Windows and Linux, except for some occasional
dependency problems because of single-file compilation. Unusable on
Mac because of keyboard shortcut issues. Project and build option
configuration is a bit complicated and the toolchain-settings need to
be tweaked manually.

Some Mac OS X keyboard shortcut issues were fixed in "10.05-p1"...
If you are talking about the optional-but-default keybinder plugin.
--anders

Yes, that version indeed fixes the cmd-key issue that was the problem
(had to clean my Application Support/codeblocks directory though). I
missed that release although I checked the front page and the nightly
forum multiple times after the release. Thanks for the hint!

S?nke

[Michel Fortin]

Post by Michael Stover
Elephant appears dead. Poseidon's activity is extremely low and is still
alpha after 5 years. LEDS is even less active, and DDT doesn't have a
release yet. What do actual D programmers use?

I'm using Xcode, with the D plugin for Xcode I made.
<http://michelf.com/projects/d-for-xcode/>