Post by t***@gmail.comSo first I was wrong because I didn't know any of his works. Now I am wrong because I do!
No I said that you appeared to be unacquainted with his works,
something I inferred from your lack of refernce to the man's work. The
criticism was that you used his as an example of a fine Jewish composer
without referencing any fine composition by him to justify it. Then
when you claim to have acquaintance my second criticism was that you
did not have the descernment to reject it. The criticisms are not
mutually inconsistent and still stand.
Consistency of argument is obviously not one of your strong suits.
See above for a demonstration of your errors and my acumen.
Your assertion that Schoenberg is childish and pretentious is merely subjective.
Not really, to arbitrary choose a new musical rule set and say that it
supercedes established techniques and provides a valid medium for
generating music on par with a tradition that was forumated over a
millenium is pretentious. It is on par with a teenager pretending that
his dabbles with a synthesizer are on par with Mozart and Bach.
It was only in a very few cases that the rules of serialism were used
outside of the framework of existing compositional styles. As such
serialism was not seen to supercede the established techniques but to add to
them. Moreover, Schoenberg was also a fine composer when not using
serialism, such as in the previously mentioned Verklarte Nacht. This
ability was also seen in his students. A good example is the piano sonata
by Alban Berg. An excellent example of serial techniques being used in
conjunction with more traditional techniques is Alban Berg's Violin
Concerto.
Post by t***@gmail.comYou fail to reconcile this with the impact that he had on the general
musical language of the 20th Century, and not just that of the other
Viennese composers but also upon English composers like Leighton and also
the great Igor Stravinksy.
Post by t***@gmail.comI have reconciled it. As I said before, these people's careers depended
upon their subservience to Jewish publishers. Clearly in an environment
of Jewish racism they were forced to take up some Jewish school of
composition.
Leighton did not depend upon publishers. His main income came from his
teaching, at the Royal Marine School of Music, Oxford, Leeds and Edinburgh
Universities. His compositions were mainly in response to private
commissions, many of them from the Church. His choice when and when not to
use serial techniques was his own. Stravinsky was certainly not subservient
to Jewish publishers. He was, in fact, considered anti-semitic by many
(although I think this an unfair reaction to his use of the full version of
"Tomorrow shall be my dancing day" in his Cantata on Old English Texts.)
Many publishers were concerned that atonal music was alienating audiences.
Why should they possibly be in favour of that? It can't be purely due to
Schoenberg being Jewish as there were many Jewish composers not writing
atonal music that publishers could have taken as their ideal model for what
you term the "Jewish school of composition."
Post by t***@gmail.comThe fact that I admire others that I have decided to listen to as
composers rather than to go through my check list of "approved" ethnic
origins is purely due to my love of the art for the sake of the art.
Then you are making a rather arrogant false assumption.
Post by t***@gmail.comThere are plenty of composers who come to fame
without justifying it and plenty who never have a chance to develop
because the racist systems in which we live show contempt to anything
of human quality.
There are few composers who remain famous without justifying it. Of course
there are many who never come to fame, but there are many reasons for that
and to single out racist systems is entirely misguided. There are clear
examples of fine composers writing at a time when musical fashions favoured
other styles or other composers. Although Mozart was clearly the greatest
composer of his time it is likely that Salieri would have been better known
had he not been an exact contemporary and lilving in Mozart's shadow. Had
the Darmstadt approach to music not occurred then Samuel Barber would most
likely have been better appreciated in his lifetime.
Post by t***@gmail.comYour own self-censorship seems to revolve around your own circular
argument that all music by Jews is rubbish.
Post by t***@gmail.comI have made it clear I accept that there are fine Jewish composers. If
I had censored as you suggest I would conclude there are none. I have
listened and judged first, then drawn the conclusion afterwards. Much
of my awareness of Jewish racism sprang from my study of the American
school of music, with its obvious Jewish domination, its degeneracy,
yobbishness and affection for gangsterism. American Jazz, nightclubs,
musicals, all are the evening entertainments of Jewish gangsters.
Perhaps when you were young you watched too many gangster films, and
its rubbed off on you, or maybe you on it.
I came to classical music at a time when I certainly was not watching
gangster films, and I still don't watch that many of them. My first
exposure was hearing Mozart's 40th symphony when I was about 4. Since then
I have avidly listened to music from all periods and formed my choices based
upon that listening.
Post by t***@gmail.comYou may find that I admire plenty of music that you do.
Fine art is appreciated by all, but the measure of the artists is his
ability to reject everything lowly.
And you should be unsurprised to find that I do not have a CD collection
including everything ever written as there is plenty that I reject. What
you seem unable to reconcile is that I have gone through this process and
find music to admire in places that you abhor, because I am not listening
with the aim of rejecting philosophies but with the aim of finding art.
Post by t***@gmail.comFinally as someone who in this thread has decided to label me as a
"racist sympathiser" a "nazi sympathiser" a "whore" a "moron" and now a
"psychopath", you will probably not be surprised if I really don't give a
toss as to what you describe as morality and moral standards.'
Post by t***@gmail.comNo it comes as no suprise that you 'don't give a toss' about culture
and morality, it is entire as I expect, and as I expected the
psychopath brags about his lack of standards.
I have no lack of standards. I just won't be a prisoner to a false set of
mores.
Post by t***@gmail.comYou will probably continue to hide in your secret den throwing our
reactionary answers to any argument put to you, raising "moral" and
"intellectual" barriers around yourself because your own code of ethics is
too fragile to stand up to honest debate, and you will resort to name
calling, accusations of political correctness and the threat of persecution
if you had the decency to debate openly rather than anonymously.
Post by t***@gmail.comThe honest thing to do is expose the racism, gangerstism and barbarity
behind your regard for these racist composers.
Again you make your arrogant false assumptions. I will maintain that my
regard for the composers I have mentioned is due to my listening - nothing
more and nothing less. Had it been anything else then my rejections of
certain music would have been different. I enjoy much of the music of Steve
Reich (a jewish composer of the American Minimalist school), but find some
of his tape compositions and his more extreme "phasing" compositions
grating. I find that Philip Glass (another jewish American minimalist)
leaves me cold. I first heard Reich when I was about 12 and loved the Music
for 18 Musicians and New York Counterpoint on first listening. At that age
I was completely unaware that he was jewish, and as would be patently
obvious to most people I had no reason to seek that information. Although I
enjoyed West Side Story, my interest in Bernstein was really sparked by
Candide and by Prelude, Fugue and Riffs. Again, particular pieces of music
that I admire through individual listening.
Post by t***@gmail.comWhy should I debate
openly, when I could be arrested for telling the truth? Point out
Jewish racist discrimination and the instiutionally racist CPS,
Judiciary and Police Force would sentence me to incitement to racial
hatred.
Why don't you go to Israel and listen to Palestinian composers. You
won't find many, as Jewish universities discriminate against
Palestinians. Same with their orchestras and their music academies.
Undoubtedly, and that is a sad situation. It is getting better that some
Israeli orchestras are allowing their conductors to be associated with
Wagner elsewhere without losing their jobs, but there is still much further
to go. Daniel Barenboim is fighting a tough battle in Israel, and I forget
the details of the combined Arab Israeli orchestra that is doing similar
(story was in the BBC music magazine last year - I will try to find it).
There is still much, much further to go. Never have I claimed that
discrimination does not exist within the state of Israel. What I have
claimed is that there have been jewish composers that have written fine
music and that my opinion is formed by the music, not by any sense of jewish
racism.
Post by t***@gmail.comNow
understand that that discrimination is not confined to the
Palestinians, but to the whole human race, and you will understand why
Jewish composers with mediocre talent are described in the superlatives
while better composers go unknown.
Yes, and how that racism prevents any companies like Scottish Opera, Royal
Opera or ENO ever putting on Wagner operas or why the Bayreuth festival is
such a commercial flop... Oh no, wait a minute, there's a flaw in the
reasoning somewhere...
Post by t***@gmail.comThe obvious superiority to Gilbert and Sullivan operattas to all
American musicals, is a demonstration of the racism in music today
taken to the ultimate extreme. Every year the television stations show
American musicals somewhere between hundreds and thousands of times.
How many G&S operattas do we get? Maybe one or two every year,
collectively from all stations...if we are exceptionally lucky. No
Jewish lyricist has anywhere near the talent of WS.Gilbert, yet the
Jewish names are afforded the highest honours, yet what do they
involve? Cheap sex and gangsterism.
American musicals tend to take contemporary themes (and certainly
contemporary popular music) and so have a wide appeal to the audience of the
time. Some enjoy a longer appreciation whilst others die out after a few
years. They are broadcast because they have popular contemporary appeal and
there is a commercial argument for them. As much as you appear to dislike
the form I am sure you will agree that there is still more musical skill
involved in these musicals than in most pop music, and yet even more pop
music is broadcast than American musicals. It is a commercial decision and
does not reflect on the quality of the music. Gilbert and Sullivan
operettas have a very enduring appeal and will continue to do so. The
International Gilbert and Sullivan Festival at Buxton Opera House is proof
of that. The only way I can imagine them being broadcast is if they are
made into films. There are very few TV broadcasts of stage productions of
American musicals. I think the last one I saw was "Kiss me Kate" (pointing
out that the more recent "Jerry Springer the Opera" is an entirely British
show.) A jewish lyricist that I would put up there with the best of them is
Stephen Sondheim. You won't agree with me, but there you go. Differing
opinions are a fact of life.
Colin