Discussion:
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail for 10 years
(too old to reply)
Rhino
2019-03-01 02:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.

This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.

I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.

I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. I imagine Horny
Goat and David Johnston will keep me honest if I state anything unclearly.

Ezra Levant, who presents the video, is right. I've NEVER seen a
government minister in this country show this much intestinal fortitude
in standing up to her political bosses when she knows they are not
following the letter of the law. I have some serious objections to Jody
Wilson-Raybould, the former Minister of Justice, on other matters but I
have to acknowledge her courage in this instance.

You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-01 04:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
My immediate question is, the RCMP investigates at this level? I thought they
were more 'arrest the thugs in the streets'
Post by Rhino
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. I imagine Horny
Goat and David Johnston will keep me honest if I state anything unclearly.
Ezra Levant, who presents the video, is right. I've NEVER seen a
government minister in this country show this much intestinal fortitude
in standing up to her political bosses when she knows they are not
following the letter of the law. I have some serious objections to Jody
Wilson-Raybould, the former Minister of Justice, on other matters but I
have to acknowledge her courage in this instance.
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Rhino
2019-03-01 04:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
My immediate question is, the RCMP investigates at this level? I thought they
were more 'arrest the thugs in the streets'
Yes, it's their job to do this kind of investigation. They've got an
unusual mandate. In 7 of the 10 provinces and all three territories,
they are like the state police in an American state in that they are the
law everywhere that isn't a city big enough to have its own municipal
police force. (Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland have provincial level
police forces whole jurisdictions are everywhere that doesn't have
municipal police.)

But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. I imagine Horny
Goat and David Johnston will keep me honest if I state anything unclearly.
Ezra Levant, who presents the video, is right. I've NEVER seen a
government minister in this country show this much intestinal fortitude
in standing up to her political bosses when she knows they are not
following the letter of the law. I have some serious objections to Jody
Wilson-Raybould, the former Minister of Justice, on other matters but I
have to acknowledge her courage in this instance.
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-01 05:29:25 UTC
Permalink
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
February 28, 2019 at 9:57:36 PM MST
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
My immediate question is, the RCMP investigates at this level? I thought they
were more 'arrest the thugs in the streets'
Yes, it's their job to do this kind of investigation. They've got an
unusual mandate. In 7 of the 10 provinces and all three territories,
they are like the state police in an American state in that they are the
law everywhere that isn't a city big enough to have its own municipal
police force. (Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland have provincial level
police forces whole jurisdictions are everywhere that doesn't have
municipal police.)
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
Cool, thanks!
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Rhino
2019-03-01 13:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
February 28, 2019 at 9:57:36 PM MST
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
My immediate question is, the RCMP investigates at this level? I thought they
were more 'arrest the thugs in the streets'
Yes, it's their job to do this kind of investigation. They've got an
unusual mandate. In 7 of the 10 provinces and all three territories,
they are like the state police in an American state in that they are the
law everywhere that isn't a city big enough to have its own municipal
police force. (Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland have provincial level
police forces whole
Oops, that "whole" was supposed to be "whose"....
Post by Rhino
jurisdictions are everywhere that doesn't have
municipal police.)
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
Cool, thanks!
No worries :-)
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-01 14:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by Rhino
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
February 28, 2019 at 9:57:36 PM MST
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
My immediate question is, the RCMP investigates at this level? I thought they
were more 'arrest the thugs in the streets'
Yes, it's their job to do this kind of investigation. They've got an
unusual mandate. In 7 of the 10 provinces and all three territories,
they are like the state police in an American state in that they are the
law everywhere that isn't a city big enough to have its own municipal
police force. (Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland have provincial level
police forces whole
Oops, that "whole" was supposed to be "whose"....
LOL, I was thinking, damn, those Mounties force whole jurisdictions!
Post by Rhino
Post by Rhino
jurisdictions are everywhere that doesn't have
municipal police.)
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
Cool, thanks!
No worries :-)
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-01 13:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
. . .
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
I knew some of that. I didn't know that Canadians did intelligence and
counter-intelligence in the same agency.
Post by Rhino
. . .
anim8rfsk
2019-03-01 13:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
. . .
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
I knew some of that. I didn't know that Canadians did intelligence and
counter-intelligence in the same agency.
It evens out.
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Rhino
2019-03-01 14:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
. . .
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
I knew some of that. I didn't know that Canadians did intelligence and
counter-intelligence in the same agency.
Post by Rhino
. . .
It is a bit odd to combine both tasks in the same agency. The Brits have
MI-5 and MI-6 while the US has CIA and FBI, to name only the best-known
of the intelligence agencies. Usually, these things are
compartmentalized to improve security by limiting the damage a mole
could do but I guess our government doesn't think that it's a risk?
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-02 14:59:49 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 13:48:51 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
But the RCMP also has national mandates to investigate federal crimes.
(Once upon a time, they also had responsibility for intelligence and
counter-intelligence too but that became the responsibility of a newer
agency, CSIS, a few decades ago.)
I knew some of that. I didn't know that Canadians did intelligence and
counter-intelligence in the same agency.
Also signals analysis which in 2019 is much bigger than 50 years ago.
The Horny Goat
2019-03-02 14:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
My immediate question is, the RCMP investigates at this level? I thought they
were more 'arrest the thugs in the streets'
When a senior RCMP officer (or recently retired RCMP officer) is
investigating at this level it is usually at the request of a high
ranking politician or bureaucrat looking for a report which can said
to be of unimpeachable integrity.

I would argue that the RCMP has a reputation far better than the US
FBI does in 2019 even though in at least 6 provinces it also (usually
under contract to local governments) provides local policing services.
For instance in metro Vancouver there are 21 separate municipalities 5
or 6 of which have their own police forces (Surrey which is a major
burb of about 600k people is transitioning from RCMP -> local and the
decision to do so was a major campaign issue in last October's
municipal election)

I would be astounded if one of the local RCMP commanders was the one
asked to write the report you're referring to - it would be somebody
based at national RCMP HQ in Ottawa.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. I imagine Horny
Goat and David Johnston will keep me honest if I state anything unclearly.
Ezra Levant, who presents the video, is right. I've NEVER seen a
government minister in this country show this much intestinal fortitude
in standing up to her political bosses when she knows they are not
following the letter of the law. I have some serious objections to Jody
Wilson-Raybould, the former Minister of Justice, on other matters but I
have to acknowledge her courage in this instance.
Two things: a LOT of people dislike Levant who is basically Canada's
Ben Shapiro but considered more "out there" than Shapiro.

What >I< am wondering is how this plays out in next October's federal
election since one of the key elements in Trudeau's win on Oct 2015
was his mobilizing the aboriginal vote and Jody W-R's appointment to
what was the first senior cabinet appointment (e.g. Finance, Foreign
Affairs plus 1 or 2 others) of an aboriginal person.

Ironically Trudeau is said to have replaced her due to major
contributors in Quebec complaining Quebec was under-represented in
major cabinet positions....

As for the company at the center of this SNC Lavallin has been getting
away with murder on foreign bidding for years and is frantic not to
get banned from Canadian government bids. The whole point of the
scandal is that Wilson-Reybould was asked to keep them out of court
and she basically said "that's why we have a federal Director of
Prosecutions to make these tough decisions and I see no reason to
overrule him for legal or political considerations"

https://montrealgazette.com/news/politics/snc-lavalin-paid-for-gadhafi-sons-debauchery-while-he-was-in-canada-report/wcm/22da305c-af4e-4e66-97bb-ea4110122f8e

Some of gadhafi's expenses were listed as "companion services" - the
linked article is more explicit on what THOSE are! (Sorry Ian!)
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
There have been US counterparts but for sure Jody W-R was expecting
something like Nixon's "Saturday night massacre" and spoke of it
several times.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-01 04:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
Sure, I'll watch it. What's the URL, please?
Post by Rhino
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. I imagine Horny
Goat and David Johnston will keep me honest if I state anything unclearly.
Ezra Levant, who presents the video, is right. I've NEVER seen a
government minister in this country show this much intestinal fortitude
in standing up to her political bosses when she knows they are not
following the letter of the law. I have some serious objections to Jody
Wilson-Raybould, the former Minister of Justice, on other matters but I
have to acknowledge her courage in this instance.
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
Rhino
2019-03-01 05:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Some of you non-Canadians have shown an interest in Canadian politics
from time to time so I thought I should mention something you may not
have heard in your media. Our Prime Minister is at the center of a major
political scandal and has demonstrably interfered in - and had various
high-ranking minions interfere in - a legal situation FOR HIS PARTY'S
POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. That happens to be against the law and, if
convicted, he (and any minions) could go to jail for up to 10 years.
This web page summarizes the situation so I won't bother to do so. The
video on this page is lengthy - an hour and 16 minutes - but lays out in
a very clear fashion the testimony of the former Minister of Justice
(who was concurrently the Attorney-General of the country) and why an
immediate RCMP investigation needs to be launched to verify that the
prime minister, the Finance Minister, and several senior officials, as
well as the Clerk of the Privy Council (the senior civil servant: think
Sir Humphrey Appleby from Yes, Prime Minister) have indeed violated the
law, not just once but on many occasions.
Sure, I'll watch it. What's the URL, please?
I had meant to put it in the thread-starting post but got busy giving
the background and forgot. Sorry about that!
https://www.therebel.media/jody-wilson-raybould-testimony-justin-trudeau-snc-lavalin-scandal-news-rebel-media-ezra-levant-show-february-27-2019?page=5&utm_campaign=el_trudeau_reckoning&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
I expect Adam Kerman, anim, and BTR1701 will find this especially
interesting if you can fit it into your busy schedules.
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. I imagine Horny
Goat and David Johnston will keep me honest if I state anything unclearly.
Ezra Levant, who presents the video, is right. I've NEVER seen a
government minister in this country show this much intestinal fortitude
in standing up to her political bosses when she knows they are not
following the letter of the law. I have some serious objections to Jody
Wilson-Raybould, the former Minister of Justice, on other matters but I
have to acknowledge her courage in this instance.
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
--
Rhino
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-13 05:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
I had meant to put it in the thread-starting post but got busy giving
the background and forgot. Sorry about that!
https://www.therebel.media/jody-wilson-raybould-testimony-justin-trudeau-snc-lavalin-scandal-news-rebel-media-ezra-levant-show-february-27-2019?page=5&utm_campaign=el_trudeau_reckoning&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel
I finally took the time to read that and follow the links. Thanks. That
was quite interesting. The developments a few days ago made news in the
United States.
The Horny Goat
2019-03-13 23:12:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 05:59:14 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
I had meant to put it in the thread-starting post but got busy giving
the background and forgot. Sorry about that!
https://www.therebel.media/jody-wilson-raybould-testimony-justin-trudeau-snc-lavalin-scandal-news-rebel-media-ezra-levant-show-february-27-2019?page=5&utm_campaign=el_trudeau_reckoning&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel
I finally took the time to read that and follow the links. Thanks. That
was quite interesting. The developments a few days ago made news in the
United States.
To be fair, TheRebel is considered in Canadian terms to be like
Breitbart but more so. They started moderately right but have gone
much more strongly in the past 15 years than previously and while
non-racialist are very definitely now 'hard right'
Rhino
2019-03-14 02:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 05:59:14 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
I had meant to put it in the thread-starting post but got busy giving
the background and forgot. Sorry about that!
https://www.therebel.media/jody-wilson-raybould-testimony-justin-trudeau-snc-lavalin-scandal-news-rebel-media-ezra-levant-show-february-27-2019?page=5&utm_campaign=el_trudeau_reckoning&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel
I finally took the time to read that and follow the links. Thanks. That
was quite interesting. The developments a few days ago made news in the
United States.
To be fair, TheRebel is considered in Canadian terms to be like
Breitbart but more so. They started moderately right but have gone
much more strongly in the past 15 years than previously and while
non-racialist are very definitely now 'hard right'
TheRebel has only just had its 4th anniversary. I don't know where
you're getting 15 years unless you roll in Ezra Levant's other shows
before he co-founded The Rebel.

As for being 'hard right', I'm not sure how you're defining that term. I
hope you're not playing the CBC's game of demonizing every news outlet
that doesn't love the Liberal Party.

If you're aware of any facts that were mistaken in the piece I cited,
please chime in.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-14 16:17:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 22:01:29 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
To be fair, TheRebel is considered in Canadian terms to be like
Breitbart but more so. They started moderately right but have gone
much more strongly in the past 15 years than previously and while
non-racialist are very definitely now 'hard right'
TheRebel has only just had its 4th anniversary. I don't know where
you're getting 15 years unless you roll in Ezra Levant's other shows
before he co-founded The Rebel.
As for being 'hard right', I'm not sure how you're defining that term. I
hope you're not playing the CBC's game of demonizing every news outlet
that doesn't love the Liberal Party.
If you're aware of any facts that were mistaken in the piece I cited,
please chime in.
Uh - Ezra Levant was definitely active for a lot of years before 2015.

Being firmly of the Tory persuasion myself I think you can safely
assume I don't fall in with the CBC's lovefest for the Justinator. The
more the current wave of scandals is breaking I am hopeful for October
2019 (for Americans: the next Canadian federal election).

[As an aside I am NOT a fan of the ranked ballot that elected both
Scheer and Singh (and several provincial party leaders including both
the main ones in BC) as it pretty much ensures the victor gets at most
50-55% of his parties vote and leaves on-going ill will of the sort
Maxime Bernier has ridden. There's a reason the runner-up in Canadian
leadership conventions usually gives a speech calling on the party to
pull together as one and I do think that's missing in conventions
driven by online ranked ballots for leader.]

While I agreed with a lot of Levant's positions 10+ years ago he was
and remains a consummate shit disturber and is prone to melodramatic
gestures to get his point across.

I would NOT consider him "alt right" but someone with strong elements
from both Howard Stern and Ben Shapiro. Not as skilled a debater as
Shapiro (which is after all Shapiro's main schtick!) but very
definitely a skilled performance artist.

Politically he's close to Preston Manning BUT Manning would never be a
fan of how Levant promotes his causes!
Rhino
2019-03-14 18:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 22:01:29 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
To be fair, TheRebel is considered in Canadian terms to be like
Breitbart but more so. They started moderately right but have gone
much more strongly in the past 15 years than previously and while
non-racialist are very definitely now 'hard right'
TheRebel has only just had its 4th anniversary. I don't know where
you're getting 15 years unless you roll in Ezra Levant's other shows
before he co-founded The Rebel.
As for being 'hard right', I'm not sure how you're defining that term. I
hope you're not playing the CBC's game of demonizing every news outlet
that doesn't love the Liberal Party.
If you're aware of any facts that were mistaken in the piece I cited,
please chime in.
Uh - Ezra Levant was definitely active for a lot of years before 2015.
Being firmly of the Tory persuasion myself I think you can safely
assume I don't fall in with the CBC's lovefest for the Justinator. The
more the current wave of scandals is breaking I am hopeful for October
2019 (for Americans: the next Canadian federal election).
You and me both. I'm hoping the current fiasco pushes the Liberals back
to third party status again, hopefully until they realize that identity
politics and "progressivism" are really bad ideas.
Post by The Horny Goat
[As an aside I am NOT a fan of the ranked ballot that elected both
Scheer and Singh (and several provincial party leaders including both
the main ones in BC) as it pretty much ensures the victor gets at most
50-55% of his parties vote and leaves on-going ill will of the sort
Maxime Bernier has ridden. There's a reason the runner-up in Canadian
leadership conventions usually gives a speech calling on the party to
pull together as one and I do think that's missing in conventions
driven by online ranked ballots for leader.]
I haven't been following the ranked ballot very closely so have no
strong opinions on it. I see no reason why runners-up can't give "pull
together" speeches after the voting has decided a winner though.
Post by The Horny Goat
While I agreed with a lot of Levant's positions 10+ years ago he was
and remains a consummate shit disturber and is prone to melodramatic
gestures to get his point across.
Sure, he can be dramatic. But a little passion is nice to see sometimes.
He's intelligent and articulate and he actually does stories on things
the rest of the media doesn't touch. For instance, The Rebel recently
figured out where $3 million worth of Khadr's money went. Who else in
the media made that effort? I think some of them are now picking up the
story because that got noticed but mostly they all try to pretend The
Rebel doesn't exist or that it is too "extreme".
Post by The Horny Goat
I would NOT consider him "alt right" but someone with strong elements
from both Howard Stern and Ben Shapiro. Not as skilled a debater as
Shapiro (which is after all Shapiro's main schtick!) but very
definitely a skilled performance artist.
Shapiro, certainly hasn't been the "wunderkind" that I had expected
after hearing the hype. I've watched a few videos where he allegedly
"crushed" or "destroyed" some opponents and wasn't terribly impressed.
Post by The Horny Goat
Politically he's close to Preston Manning BUT Manning would never be a
fan of how Levant promotes his causes!
I've been very pleasantly surprised to find the bigger media outlets
starting to do their jobs again in the light of the SNC-Lavalin fiasco.
It's a NICE change from them gushing about the PMs hair, socks, and
selfies. They were like pre-teen girls gushing about Bieber! Even the
FOREIGN media was doing it to some extent. I was sure that $595 million
dollar media slush fund had completely bought their silence.

I am very curious to see if the media will stay on this right through
the election or if the Liberals are going to figure out the right
combination of inducements to persuade them to make it all blow over and
even rehabilitate the Liberals in time for the election. I do NOT want
the Liberals back in power again until they learn some major lessons
about the divisiveness of identity politics and the toxicity of
"progressive" ideology.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-14 21:46:28 UTC
Permalink
ROn Thu, 14 Mar 2019 14:18:04 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
I would NOT consider him "alt right" but someone with strong elements
from both Howard Stern and Ben Shapiro. Not as skilled a debater as
Shapiro (which is after all Shapiro's main schtick!) but very
definitely a skilled performance artist.
Shapiro, certainly hasn't been the "wunderkind" that I had expected
after hearing the hype. I've watched a few videos where he allegedly
"crushed" or "destroyed" some opponents and wasn't terribly impressed.
There are a couple of Youtube videos out there that analyse his
debating style in detail that are well worth your time.
Rhino
2019-03-15 02:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
ROn Thu, 14 Mar 2019 14:18:04 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
I would NOT consider him "alt right" but someone with strong elements
from both Howard Stern and Ben Shapiro. Not as skilled a debater as
Shapiro (which is after all Shapiro's main schtick!) but very
definitely a skilled performance artist.
Shapiro, certainly hasn't been the "wunderkind" that I had expected
after hearing the hype. I've watched a few videos where he allegedly
"crushed" or "destroyed" some opponents and wasn't terribly impressed.
There are a couple of Youtube videos out there that analyse his
debating style in detail that are well worth your time.
Any particular ones you could recommend?
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-15 06:34:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 22:51:27 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Shapiro, certainly hasn't been the "wunderkind" that I had expected
after hearing the hype. I've watched a few videos where he allegedly
"crushed" or "destroyed" some opponents and wasn't terribly impressed.
There are a couple of Youtube videos out there that analyse his
debating style in detail that are well worth your time.
Any particular ones you could recommend?
I kind of like this one:

Rhino
2019-03-15 11:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 22:51:27 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Shapiro, certainly hasn't been the "wunderkind" that I had expected
after hearing the hype. I've watched a few videos where he allegedly
"crushed" or "destroyed" some opponents and wasn't terribly impressed.
There are a couple of Youtube videos out there that analyse his
debating style in detail that are well worth your time.
Any particular ones you could recommend?
http://youtu.be/JY5t6iUzajk
Thank you for that. I hadn't seen any proper analyses of his style, just
videos that claimed to show him "destroy" someone or another. Every time
I watch one of those - involving anyone, not just Shapiro - the claim
always seems seriously overblown.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-15 15:26:44 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 07:37:20 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Any particular ones you could recommend?
http://youtu.be/JY5t6iUzajk
Thank you for that. I hadn't seen any proper analyses of his style, just
videos that claimed to show him "destroy" someone or another. Every time
I watch one of those - involving anyone, not just Shapiro - the claim
always seems seriously overblown.
I find him entertaining but not especially applicable to me at my age.
Rhino
2019-03-15 16:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 07:37:20 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Any particular ones you could recommend?
http://youtu.be/JY5t6iUzajk
Thank you for that. I hadn't seen any proper analyses of his style, just
videos that claimed to show him "destroy" someone or another. Every time
I watch one of those - involving anyone, not just Shapiro - the claim
always seems seriously overblown.
I find him entertaining but not especially applicable to me at my age.
I should find a similar video on Ted Cruz. He was apparently a debate
champ for years in high school and university. I don't truly know a lot
about him but I respect what little I know. I once sat through an hour
long ad-libbed speech in Congress where he didn't utter a single um, or
er and was envious as hell. I'd love to learn how to do that. I'm okay
in writing but having to speak that clearly is beyond me. I also respect
his grasp on history.

He once cracked a joke that impressed me. He was referring to some kind
of ideological disagreement between two senators (I think) and said it
was like watching an argument between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks.
I doubt one in a thousand of the people who heard that had any idea who
the Mensheviks even were but Cruz obviously did and since I did too, it
struck a chord with me :-)

I still wonder how the present would look if Cruz had become the
Republican nominee instead of Trump. Could he have won the general
election? And if he did, what kind of President would he be? Of course
he's still young and can think about running again somewhere down the
road so maybe we'll still find out. I'm sure the Democrats would still
be miserable that Hillary didn't get in but maybe they wouldn't be quite
as hysterical as they have been with Trump.
--
Rhino
Rhino
2019-03-14 01:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
I had meant to put it in the thread-starting post but got busy giving
the background and forgot. Sorry about that!
https://www.therebel.media/jody-wilson-raybould-testimony-justin-trudeau-snc-lavalin-scandal-news-rebel-media-ezra-levant-show-february-27-2019?page=5&utm_campaign=el_trudeau_reckoning&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel
I finally took the time to read that and follow the links. Thanks. That
was quite interesting. The developments a few days ago made news in the
United States.
Good on you for taking the time to delve into another country's
politics. The politics in your own country is already a lot to keep up
with! :-)
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-01 05:20:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 21:26:16 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
Given the lady at the center of the affair has said that she doesn't
believe the behaviour is criminal but on the other hand quite
unethical it is doubtful Justin's going to jail for 10 years - but for
sure it could badly hurt his chances in October's election.

On the other hand this is the sort of scandal that is HUGE for people
that didn't vote for Trudeau last time while not nearly as big a deal
for those that did.

And no question, SNC is perceived in Quebec as being a QUEBEC company
(the headquarters are in Montreal but as usual in $billion companies
have offices coast to coast - for instance they built the Vancouver
subway and have a maintenance contract on it so obviously there are 'a
few' employees in Vancouver).

And on top of the political fallout the news that SNC spent $30000+
on hookers for Col. Ghaddafi's son (recorded on SNC's books as
'companion payments'!) isn't helping much.

Bottom line is the Quebec Liberal party hopes to gain 10+ seats at the
expense of the NDP in October and the loss by the NDP of their former
leader's seat in a Montreal by-election has demonstrated that Quebec
sees this scandal as an attack on Quebec while the rest of the country
sees this as a corruption scandal.
Rhino
2019-03-01 13:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 21:26:16 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
You have no idea how it saddens me that her principled stubbornness is
as remarkable as it apparently is. (The idealistic part of me thinks
this is how the system should work every day and that it should be front
page news when it DOESN'T work that way. Instead, we have the reverse.)
Or maybe such principled behaviour is actually routine and this is one
of the rare cases where it became visible; I'd like it if that were true
but I'm skeptical.
Given the lady at the center of the affair has said that she doesn't
believe the behaviour is criminal but on the other hand quite
unethical it is doubtful Justin's going to jail for 10 years - but for
sure it could badly hurt his chances in October's election.
If you watch the video, Ezra Levant, who is a lawyer by training even if
he doesn't practice, points out that it 1s a violation of Criminal Code
139(2) to do exactly what Trudeau, et. al were doing. That's the
provision that has the 10 year maximum sentence.
Post by The Horny Goat
On the other hand this is the sort of scandal that is HUGE for people
that didn't vote for Trudeau last time while not nearly as big a deal
for those that did.
And no question, SNC is perceived in Quebec as being a QUEBEC company
(the headquarters are in Montreal but as usual in $billion companies
have offices coast to coast - for instance they built the Vancouver
subway and have a maintenance contract on it so obviously there are 'a
few' employees in Vancouver).
And on top of the political fallout the news that SNC spent $30000+
on hookers for Col. Ghaddafi's son (recorded on SNC's books as
'companion payments'!) isn't helping much.
Bottom line is the Quebec Liberal party hopes to gain 10+ seats at the
expense of the NDP in October and the loss by the NDP of their former
leader's seat in a Montreal by-election has demonstrated that Quebec
sees this scandal as an attack on Quebec while the rest of the country
sees this as a corruption scandal.
According to a news item I saw yesterday, Quebec is almost perfectly
split - 49% vs. 51% - on the SNC-Lavalin matter. The ONLY part of the
country that is still predominantly Liberal is the Maritimes which has
100% of its seats in the House in Liberal hands.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-02 15:05:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 08:57:41 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Bottom line is the Quebec Liberal party hopes to gain 10+ seats at the
expense of the NDP in October and the loss by the NDP of their former
leader's seat in a Montreal by-election has demonstrated that Quebec
sees this scandal as an attack on Quebec while the rest of the country
sees this as a corruption scandal.
According to a news item I saw yesterday, Quebec is almost perfectly
split - 49% vs. 51% - on the SNC-Lavalin matter. The ONLY part of the
country that is still predominantly Liberal is the Maritimes which has
100% of its seats in the House in Liberal hands.
Yes that was 2015.

Obviously working to change that situation is a primary objective of
the other parties in election strategy planning for October 2019.
Meanwhile the NDP has had a major collapse in Quebec and the Libs are
hoping to take as many as possible of the 16 seats the NDP got there
last time. It has been a long time since the Libs got 73 of 74 Quebec
seats.

For what it's worth NS + NB + PEI + NF have a combined population less
than either BC or AB and far less than Ontario or Quebec.
Rhino
2019-03-14 02:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 08:57:41 -0500, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Bottom line is the Quebec Liberal party hopes to gain 10+ seats at the
expense of the NDP in October and the loss by the NDP of their former
leader's seat in a Montreal by-election has demonstrated that Quebec
sees this scandal as an attack on Quebec while the rest of the country
sees this as a corruption scandal.
According to a news item I saw yesterday, Quebec is almost perfectly
split - 49% vs. 51% - on the SNC-Lavalin matter. The ONLY part of the
country that is still predominantly Liberal is the Maritimes which has
100% of its seats in the House in Liberal hands.
Yes that was 2015.
Obviously working to change that situation is a primary objective of
the other parties in election strategy planning for October 2019.
Meanwhile the NDP has had a major collapse in Quebec and the Libs are
hoping to take as many as possible of the 16 seats the NDP got there
last time. It has been a long time since the Libs got 73 of 74 Quebec
seats.
The NDP almost swept Quebec in 2011 and it was the first time they'd had
more than a single seat in the province. I think Quebec had had enough
of the Liberals AND the Conservatives in 2011 and voted for the NDP en
masse for the first time. They elected a bunch of MPs that weren't even
credible candidates, like university students that had never had a job
and had been aspiring to caddy at the local golf club when they suddenly
found themselves MPs. The idea that the NDP was going to hold most of
those seats was unlikely at best.

You're right that the Liberals haven't been popular there in a long
time. It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the campaign
in Quebec and who they vote for on election day.
Post by The Horny Goat
For what it's worth NS + NB + PEI + NF have a combined population less
than either BC or AB and far less than Ontario or Quebec.
An important point for anyone who imagines the provinces are remote
equal in population. Canadians know better but most Americans have no
idea of the relative populations.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-14 16:21:15 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 22:08:18 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
The NDP almost swept Quebec in 2011 and it was the first time they'd had
more than a single seat in the province. I think Quebec had had enough
of the Liberals AND the Conservatives in 2011 and voted for the NDP en
masse for the first time. They elected a bunch of MPs that weren't even
credible candidates, like university students that had never had a job
and had been aspiring to caddy at the local golf club when they suddenly
found themselves MPs. The idea that the NDP was going to hold most of
those seats was unlikely at best.
Actually the NDP had one individual seats in QC before 2011 but for
sure they were really a 'player' before 2011.

Bottom line is Quebec voters have ALWAYS voted Quebec first and to
hell with the rest of the country. And I mean that literally.

Unreconstructed southerners in the US have always despised northerners
but when push comes to shove (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 etc) have always
pulled together when there's a legitimate national interest. Not so
Quebec - as the ongoing Churchill Falls fiasco over 5 decades and
their view of Energy East proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
Rhino
2019-03-14 16:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 22:08:18 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
The NDP almost swept Quebec in 2011 and it was the first time they'd had
more than a single seat in the province. I think Quebec had had enough
of the Liberals AND the Conservatives in 2011 and voted for the NDP en
masse for the first time. They elected a bunch of MPs that weren't even
credible candidates, like university students that had never had a job
and had been aspiring to caddy at the local golf club when they suddenly
found themselves MPs. The idea that the NDP was going to hold most of
those seats was unlikely at best.
Actually the NDP had one individual seats in QC before 2011 but for
sure they were really a 'player' before 2011.
I think you meant to include a 'not' in that sentence :-)

Also, the first sentence in the quoted paragraph acknowledged previous
NDP seats in Quebec. :-) (I still remember when the NDP won their first
seat ever in Quebec.)
Post by The Horny Goat
Bottom line is Quebec voters have ALWAYS voted Quebec first and to
hell with the rest of the country. And I mean that literally.
The idea of the NDP having the majority of the seats in the province was
unthinkable until it actually happened. But I never imagined it would
last. It was a protest vote and wasn't going to sustain itself
indefinitely unless they REALLY pleased Quebeckers.
Post by The Horny Goat
Unreconstructed southerners in the US have always despised northerners
but when push comes to shove (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 etc) have always
pulled together when there's a legitimate national interest. Not so
Quebec - as the ongoing Churchill Falls fiasco over 5 decades and
their view of Energy East proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
There's no doubt that Quebec is always a difficult national issue and
probably always will be.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-14 21:45:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 12:58:18 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Actually the NDP had one individual seats in QC before 2011 but for
sure they were really a 'player' before 2011.
I think you meant to include a 'not' in that sentence :-)
You are correct - the 2011 is probably the ONLY election where they
were a major factor in Quebec - far less so in 2015.

Personally I thought Mulcair a better party leader than Leighton but
Leighton (like JFK) had the "good fortune" of "dying at a good time"
and I have no doubt he would not be so well regarded had he still been
with us to this day.
Post by Rhino
Also, the first sentence in the quoted paragraph acknowledged previous
NDP seats in Quebec. :-) (I still remember when the NDP won their first
seat ever in Quebec.)
For what it's worth Montreal ALSO elected the one and only Communist
MP in Canadian history but that was the 1940s.
Post by Rhino
The idea of the NDP having the majority of the seats in the province was
unthinkable until it actually happened. But I never imagined it would
last. It was a protest vote and wasn't going to sustain itself
indefinitely unless they REALLY pleased Quebeckers.
Total agreement on each of the three points you make.
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Unreconstructed southerners in the US have always despised northerners
but when push comes to shove (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 etc) have always
pulled together when there's a legitimate national interest. Not so
Quebec - as the ongoing Churchill Falls fiasco over 5 decades and
their view of Energy East proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
There's no doubt that Quebec is always a difficult national issue and
probably always will be.
Most likely true but it does do terrible things to the body politic
and most "Anglos" know it. On the other hand, Canada without the
geographical land mass is non-sustainable as well so a no win
situation.
Rhino
2019-03-15 02:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 12:58:18 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Actually the NDP had one individual seats in QC before 2011 but for
sure they were really a 'player' before 2011.
I think you meant to include a 'not' in that sentence :-)
You are correct - the 2011 is probably the ONLY election where they
were a major factor in Quebec - far less so in 2015.
They took (or held) 16 seats in 2015, which was way down from the 59 in
2011.
Post by The Horny Goat
Personally I thought Mulcair a better party leader than Leighton but
Leighton (like JFK) had the "good fortune" of "dying at a good time"
and I have no doubt he would not be so well regarded had he still been
with us to this day.
I only needed one exposure to Layton to despise the man. This was back
in the early 90s when he was running for mayor of Toronto. He started
promising stuff - lots of stuff - just to pander to the handicapped
people in the audience. (They had, in fact, sponsored the debate.) He
was promising to make every inch of city property wheelchair accessible,
including the entire subway system. Handicapped people who might be
employable by the city if it weren't for their disability would all be
supplied with assistants (presumably PAID assistants) to help them do
the things they couldn't do due to their disability - like reaching into
overhead shelves at their desks. None of his opponents even had the
balls to ask him what that would cost or how it would be paid for. I
thought it was cruel for him to make these vastly unrealistic promises
to people, at least if they were naive enough to believe him, because
they would have inevitably been disappointed. He might as well have
promised to cure their physical ailments - not fund research into their
diseases, which might have been realistic but actually cure them.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Also, the first sentence in the quoted paragraph acknowledged previous
NDP seats in Quebec. :-) (I still remember when the NDP won their first
seat ever in Quebec.)
For what it's worth Montreal ALSO elected the one and only Communist
MP in Canadian history but that was the 1940s.
Fred Rose. That was back in the days when Montreal was the clear and
undisputed economic heart of Canada. Rose was not just elected to
Parliament (in 1943), he was re-elected (in 1945). Then he spent nearly
5 years in prison after being convicted of espionage as a result of the
commission that investigated the information provided by Igor Gouzenko,
the Soviet cipher clerk that defected to Canada in 1945.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
The idea of the NDP having the majority of the seats in the province was
unthinkable until it actually happened. But I never imagined it would
last. It was a protest vote and wasn't going to sustain itself
indefinitely unless they REALLY pleased Quebeckers.
Total agreement on each of the three points you make.
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Unreconstructed southerners in the US have always despised northerners
but when push comes to shove (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 etc) have always
pulled together when there's a legitimate national interest. Not so
Quebec - as the ongoing Churchill Falls fiasco over 5 decades and
their view of Energy East proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
There's no doubt that Quebec is always a difficult national issue and
probably always will be.
Most likely true but it does do terrible things to the body politic
and most "Anglos" know it. On the other hand, Canada without the
geographical land mass is non-sustainable as well so a no win
situation.
I remember someone floating the idea (back in the 70s) that if Quebec
gave up all of its territory south of the St. Lawrence to Canada and
made the rest of Quebec into a sovereign country, Canada might still be
a sustainable country since there would be a physical corridor to the
Maritimes (at least NB, NS and PE but obviously not Labrador or
Newfoundland). There's a certain logic to that but I'm really not
confident that Quebec would accept any such arrangement.
Aside from that, I'm at a loss to think of anything reasonable we could
do to end Quebec separatism.

I used to work with some Quebeckers and, although we rarely discussed
politics, I remember one peer assuring me that separatists would NEVER
leave Canada if push came to shove, presumably because they value the
Canadian dollar and passport far too much. That and the many polls that
said true separatists never accounted for more than 25% of the Quebec
voters was a comfort. Then the 1995 referendum happened and the
Federalists won by less than 1%! That did a lot to undermine my
confidence that Quebec would never leave. Separatist fever died down a
lot after that referendum but we all know it could - and probably will -
flare up again down the road. It's anyone's guess if it will go all the
way to separation the next time.

The sad thing is that the ROC (Rest of Canada) is unlikely to care a
whole lot because they're so sick of Quebec's unease with being in this
country, even if their departure means the end of our country.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-15 06:33:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 22:50:46 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
You are correct - the 2011 is probably the ONLY election where they
were a major factor in Quebec - far less so in 2015.
They took (or held) 16 seats in 2015, which was way down from the 59 in
2011.
With all due respect 'far less so' is appropriate when a party goes
from 59 -> 16 seats :)
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Personally I thought Mulcair a better party leader than Leighton but
Leighton (like JFK) had the "good fortune" of "dying at a good time"
and I have no doubt he would not be so well regarded had he still been
with us to this day.
I only needed one exposure to Layton to despise the man. This was back
in the early 90s when he was running for mayor of Toronto. He started
promising stuff - lots of stuff - just to pander to the handicapped
people in the audience. (They had, in fact, sponsored the debate.) He
was promising to make every inch of city property wheelchair accessible,
including the entire subway system. Handicapped people who might be
employable by the city if it weren't for their disability would all be
supplied with assistants (presumably PAID assistants) to help them do
the things they couldn't do due to their disability - like reaching into
overhead shelves at their desks. None of his opponents even had the
balls to ask him what that would cost or how it would be paid for. I
thought it was cruel for him to make these vastly unrealistic promises
to people, at least if they were naive enough to believe him, because
they would have inevitably been disappointed. He might as well have
promised to cure their physical ailments - not fund research into their
diseases, which might have been realistic but actually cure them.
I assume you know his wife ran unsuccessfully for mayor of Toronto.
While I would not expect her policies to be a carbon copy one would
expect them to be close.
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Also, the first sentence in the quoted paragraph acknowledged previous
NDP seats in Quebec. :-) (I still remember when the NDP won their first
seat ever in Quebec.)
For what it's worth Montreal ALSO elected the one and only Communist
MP in Canadian history but that was the 1940s.
Fred Rose. That was back in the days when Montreal was the clear and
undisputed economic heart of Canada. Rose was not just elected to
Parliament (in 1943), he was re-elected (in 1945). Then he spent nearly
5 years in prison after being convicted of espionage as a result of the
commission that investigated the information provided by Igor Gouzenko,
the Soviet cipher clerk that defected to Canada in 1945.
Well that ended in the 1920s - by the end of WW2 Montreal was a shadow
of it's former self economically and I would argue that
psychologically at least Quebec never recovered.
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
The idea of the NDP having the majority of the seats in the province was
unthinkable until it actually happened. But I never imagined it would
last. It was a protest vote and wasn't going to sustain itself
indefinitely unless they REALLY pleased Quebeckers.
Most likely true but it does do terrible things to the body politic
and most "Anglos" know it. On the other hand, Canada without the
geographical land mass is non-sustainable as well so a no win
situation.
I remember someone floating the idea (back in the 70s) that if Quebec
gave up all of its territory south of the St. Lawrence to Canada and
made the rest of Quebec into a sovereign country, Canada might still be
a sustainable country since there would be a physical corridor to the
Maritimes (at least NB, NS and PE but obviously not Labrador or
Newfoundland). There's a certain logic to that but I'm really not
confident that Quebec would accept any such arrangement.
Aside from that, I'm at a loss to think of anything reasonable we could
do to end Quebec separatism.
I don't see any separatist leader yielding an inch of Quebec and
staying in power.
Post by Rhino
I used to work with some Quebeckers and, although we rarely discussed
politics, I remember one peer assuring me that separatists would NEVER
leave Canada if push came to shove, presumably because they value the
Canadian dollar and passport far too much. That and the many polls that
said true separatists never accounted for more than 25% of the Quebec
voters was a comfort. Then the 1995 referendum happened and the
Federalists won by less than 1%! That did a lot to undermine my
confidence that Quebec would never leave. Separatist fever died down a
lot after that referendum but we all know it could - and probably will -
flare up again down the road. It's anyone's guess if it will go all the
way to separation the next time.
I think the federal Liberals still have a lot to answer for for 1995.
That was much too close for comfort.
Post by Rhino
The sad thing is that the ROC (Rest of Canada) is unlikely to care a
whole lot because they're so sick of Quebec's unease with being in this
country, even if their departure means the end of our country.
The fact that the federal "equalization payment" scheme takes a net $
12-13 billion a year (about 2/3 of that from Alberta which is in
deficit) and gives it to Quebec which is in surplus while Quebec
continues to refuse the Energy East pipeline project (which I think
longterm is FAR FAR FAR more important to Canada than the pipeline to
the west coast) is an obscenity that one wonders how Justin shows his
face in public without shame.

Where DO they think the $8 billion subsidy comes f rom?

Over 50000 jobs in the oil patch have been lost in the last two years
without any counter-measures by the feds while the federal government
is willing to subvert the rule of law because 9000 in Quebec are
claimed to be at risk? Again - actual jobs lost vs. potential losses.
Rhino
2019-03-15 12:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 22:50:46 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
You are correct - the 2011 is probably the ONLY election where they
were a major factor in Quebec - far less so in 2015.
They took (or held) 16 seats in 2015, which was way down from the 59 in
2011.
With all due respect 'far less so' is appropriate when a party goes
from 59 -> 16 seats :)
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Personally I thought Mulcair a better party leader than Leighton but
Leighton (like JFK) had the "good fortune" of "dying at a good time"
and I have no doubt he would not be so well regarded had he still been
with us to this day.
I only needed one exposure to Layton to despise the man. This was back
in the early 90s when he was running for mayor of Toronto. He started
promising stuff - lots of stuff - just to pander to the handicapped
people in the audience. (They had, in fact, sponsored the debate.) He
was promising to make every inch of city property wheelchair accessible,
including the entire subway system. Handicapped people who might be
employable by the city if it weren't for their disability would all be
supplied with assistants (presumably PAID assistants) to help them do
the things they couldn't do due to their disability - like reaching into
overhead shelves at their desks. None of his opponents even had the
balls to ask him what that would cost or how it would be paid for. I
thought it was cruel for him to make these vastly unrealistic promises
to people, at least if they were naive enough to believe him, because
they would have inevitably been disappointed. He might as well have
promised to cure their physical ailments - not fund research into their
diseases, which might have been realistic but actually cure them.
I assume you know his wife ran unsuccessfully for mayor of Toronto.
While I would not expect her policies to be a carbon copy one would
expect them to be close.
Agreed. I think she figured she was going to get in simply because she
was his widow and all the people that thought they loved her husband
would vote for her on that basis. I was not disappointed to see her
defeated.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Also, the first sentence in the quoted paragraph acknowledged previous
NDP seats in Quebec. :-) (I still remember when the NDP won their first
seat ever in Quebec.)
For what it's worth Montreal ALSO elected the one and only Communist
MP in Canadian history but that was the 1940s.
Fred Rose. That was back in the days when Montreal was the clear and
undisputed economic heart of Canada. Rose was not just elected to
Parliament (in 1943), he was re-elected (in 1945). Then he spent nearly
5 years in prison after being convicted of espionage as a result of the
commission that investigated the information provided by Igor Gouzenko,
the Soviet cipher clerk that defected to Canada in 1945.
Well that ended in the 1920s - by the end of WW2 Montreal was a shadow
of it's former self economically and I would argue that
psychologically at least Quebec never recovered.
The 1920s seems premature to me as a point at which Montreal was in a
major state of decline. I would put that point much later. I don't think
Toronto was truly seen as having eclipsed Montreal until the early 60s.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
The idea of the NDP having the majority of the seats in the province was
unthinkable until it actually happened. But I never imagined it would
last. It was a protest vote and wasn't going to sustain itself
indefinitely unless they REALLY pleased Quebeckers.
Most likely true but it does do terrible things to the body politic
and most "Anglos" know it. On the other hand, Canada without the
geographical land mass is non-sustainable as well so a no win
situation.
I remember someone floating the idea (back in the 70s) that if Quebec
gave up all of its territory south of the St. Lawrence to Canada and
made the rest of Quebec into a sovereign country, Canada might still be
a sustainable country since there would be a physical corridor to the
Maritimes (at least NB, NS and PE but obviously not Labrador or
Newfoundland). There's a certain logic to that but I'm really not
confident that Quebec would accept any such arrangement.
Aside from that, I'm at a loss to think of anything reasonable we could
do to end Quebec separatism.
I don't see any separatist leader yielding an inch of Quebec and
staying in power.
It would surely be a VERY hard sell. I don't know where separatism is
strongest either. Perhaps the South Shore people are the most determined
separatists in Quebec's regions. Or the least. That would certainly
affect the political "math". Looking at the history, Quebec shouldn't be
all that rigid about shedding a piece of itself: it's done so several
times in the past. Look at the Louisiana Purchase, which took far larger
tracts of New France and sold them to the US. They also gave up the huge
area which became Ontario. And Labrador to wheedle Newfoundland into
joining the country.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
I used to work with some Quebeckers and, although we rarely discussed
politics, I remember one peer assuring me that separatists would NEVER
leave Canada if push came to shove, presumably because they value the
Canadian dollar and passport far too much. That and the many polls that
said true separatists never accounted for more than 25% of the Quebec
voters was a comfort. Then the 1995 referendum happened and the
Federalists won by less than 1%! That did a lot to undermine my
confidence that Quebec would never leave. Separatist fever died down a
lot after that referendum but we all know it could - and probably will -
flare up again down the road. It's anyone's guess if it will go all the
way to separation the next time.
I think the federal Liberals still have a lot to answer for for 1995.
That was much too close for comfort.
I still remember watching the vote counts come in. The first place they
reported - Anticosti Island - was 70% in favour of separation and I
thought we'd lost Quebec! But eventually the tide turned and federalism
won by a whisker. I really wasn't sure the count would end the way it
did though....
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
The sad thing is that the ROC (Rest of Canada) is unlikely to care a
whole lot because they're so sick of Quebec's unease with being in this
country, even if their departure means the end of our country.
The fact that the federal "equalization payment" scheme takes a net $
12-13 billion a year (about 2/3 of that from Alberta which is in
deficit) and gives it to Quebec which is in surplus while Quebec
continues to refuse the Energy East pipeline project (which I think
longterm is FAR FAR FAR more important to Canada than the pipeline to
the west coast) is an obscenity that one wonders how Justin shows his
face in public without shame.
Where DO they think the $8 billion subsidy comes f rom?
Over 50000 jobs in the oil patch have been lost in the last two years
without any counter-measures by the feds while the federal government
is willing to subvert the rule of law because 9000 in Quebec are
claimed to be at risk? Again - actual jobs lost vs. potential losses.
I agree. The equalization formulas in this country need some serious
revisiting. Provinces that are in surplus shouldn't be getting payments,
they should be making transfer payments.

In all honesty, I know almost nothing about how transfer payments are
calculated in this country. I never heard a teacher talk about it, even
during university Poli Sci classes, nor in a lifetime of consuming the
national media.

Maybe the whole equalization idea needs to be abandoned entirely to
incentivize each province to build its own wealth generation capability.
Look at how Newfoundland, the perennial "have not", has turned into a
"have" province against all expectations and how Ontario did the
opposite under the gross mismanagement of the provincial Liberals in the
past 15 years.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-15 15:33:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 08:03:06 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Well that ended in the 1920s - by the end of WW2 Montreal was a shadow
of it's former self economically and I would argue that
psychologically at least Quebec never recovered.
The 1920s seems premature to me as a point at which Montreal was in a
major state of decline. I would put that point much later. I don't think
Toronto was truly seen as having eclipsed Montreal until the early 60s.
What REALLY put the nail in the coffin was postwar immigration
primarily to Toronto - primarily German, Italian and Polish. This wave
pretty much revitalized the construction and steel industries (which
were located more in Hamilton than Toronto but the main users were the
auto industry in Oshawa and Oakville). This immigration wave largely
ignored Montreal and vaulted Toronto past Montreal.

I said late 20s as the Depression hit Quebec particularly hard and the
response was turning inwards with little population growth at the time
during which time whatever little immigration there was was going
anywhere but Quebec

But for sure there has always been the mentality even now that Quebec
was equal to the rest of Canada and that simply hasn't been the case
for 100+ years.
Rhino
2019-03-15 16:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 08:03:06 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Well that ended in the 1920s - by the end of WW2 Montreal was a shadow
of it's former self economically and I would argue that
psychologically at least Quebec never recovered.
The 1920s seems premature to me as a point at which Montreal was in a
major state of decline. I would put that point much later. I don't think
Toronto was truly seen as having eclipsed Montreal until the early 60s.
What REALLY put the nail in the coffin was postwar immigration
primarily to Toronto - primarily German, Italian and Polish. This wave
pretty much revitalized the construction and steel industries (which
were located more in Hamilton than Toronto but the main users were the
auto industry in Oshawa and Oakville). This immigration wave largely
ignored Montreal and vaulted Toronto past Montreal.
I said late 20s as the Depression hit Quebec particularly hard and the
response was turning inwards with little population growth at the time
during > which time whatever little immigration there was was going
anywhere but Quebec
Quebec has endured lots of hard economic times. There are a lot of
people descended from the Quebecois in New England; I've met some. They
came to New England for work during very lean years in economic
downturns even before the Great Depression, like the 1890s. They're
almost completed assimilated into the US now, of course. Most of them
don't speak French and don't even say their own names the way a
francophone would. (I spoke to one woman named Pelletier who pronounced
it "Pell-tear".)
Post by The Horny Goat
But for sure there has always been the mentality even now that Quebec
was equal to the rest of Canada and that simply hasn't been the case
for 100+ years.
In hindsight, I wonder if it might have been better for the Brits to
have made more efforts to de-emphasize French and push English, perhaps
to the point of forbidding education in French, in the decades following
the Seven Years War. I imagine they had the impulse to do that but held
off for pragmatic reasons that seemed wiser at the time. They may have
been right too. But maybe Quebec would be better integrated now if they
had.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-16 02:24:25 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:16:04 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
people descended from the Quebecois in New England; I've met some. They
came to New England for work during very lean years in economic
downturns even before the Great Depression, like the 1890s. They're
almost completed assimilated into the US now, of course. Most of them
don't speak French and don't even say their own names the way a
francophone would. (I spoke to one woman named Pelletier who pronounced
it "Pell-tear".)
Will never forget my first weekend in Winnipeg years ago when I
pronounced the main street of Winnipeg the French way (port'ahj)
instead of (Port-Age) the way the locals do. "You're not from around
here are you?" - didn't make me feel any less miserable in the January
-35 weather - it was the first winter of my life not spent in either
BC or California.....
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
But for sure there has always been the mentality even now that Quebec
was equal to the rest of Canada and that simply hasn't been the case
for 100+ years.
In hindsight, I wonder if it might have been better for the Brits to
have made more efforts to de-emphasize French and push English, perhaps
to the point of forbidding education in French, in the decades following
the Seven Years War. I imagine they had the impulse to do that but held
off for pragmatic reasons that seemed wiser at the time. They may have
been right too. But maybe Quebec would be better integrated now if they
had.
Lord Durham is alive and well!! (Anybody not knowing about Lord Durham
and his famous report is welcome to Google "Lord Durham's report" and
read any of the top 3 hits (The Canadian encyclopedia, CBC.ca and
wikipedia) for a pretty good survey.

The main reason they didn't is that they didn't was that they didn't
want Henry Wadsworth Longfellow or someone of his stature writing a
second Evangeline story! (Evangeline is the story of one of the
deportations from English formerly French Canada following one of the
Anglo French wars that took place over nearly 100 years before the
final conquest of Quebec City in 1759)
Rhino
2019-03-16 15:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:16:04 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
people descended from the Quebecois in New England; I've met some. They
came to New England for work during very lean years in economic
downturns even before the Great Depression, like the 1890s. They're
almost completed assimilated into the US now, of course. Most of them
don't speak French and don't even say their own names the way a
francophone would. (I spoke to one woman named Pelletier who pronounced
it "Pell-tear".)
Will never forget my first weekend in Winnipeg years ago when I
pronounced the main street of Winnipeg the French way (port'ahj)
instead of (Port-Age) the way the locals do. "You're not from around
here are you?" - didn't make me feel any less miserable in the January
-35 weather - it was the first winter of my life not spent in either
BC or California.....
I can only imagine, having lived in southern Ontario all my life. We're
probably the second mildest part of Canada in winter after south-coastal
BC, and it's almost never -35 here. We don't get things as mild as the
Vancouver area though so the shock of -35 must have been ever worse for
you.

There's a guy at one of my IT meetups that emigrated from Johannesburg -
where it is hardly ever outside of the 60-80F range - just short of a
year ago. I was talking to him at the meetup this past week and was
pleasantly surprised to find that he and his family seemed to be
enduring their first Canadian winter quite well. I would have thought
he'd be really discouraged and starting to think very seriously about
Australia or New Zealand instead to be in a more familiar climate but
that doesn't seem to be the case.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
But for sure there has always been the mentality even now that Quebec
was equal to the rest of Canada and that simply hasn't been the case
for 100+ years.
In hindsight, I wonder if it might have been better for the Brits to
have made more efforts to de-emphasize French and push English, perhaps
to the point of forbidding education in French, in the decades following
the Seven Years War. I imagine they had the impulse to do that but held
off for pragmatic reasons that seemed wiser at the time. They may have
been right too. But maybe Quebec would be better integrated now if they
had.
Lord Durham is alive and well!! (Anybody not knowing about Lord Durham
and his famous report is welcome to Google "Lord Durham's report" and
read any of the top 3 hits (The Canadian encyclopedia, CBC.ca and
wikipedia) for a pretty good survey.
The main reason they didn't is that they didn't was that they didn't
want Henry Wadsworth Longfellow or someone of his stature writing a
second Evangeline story! (Evangeline is the story of one of the
deportations from English formerly French Canada following one of the
Anglo French wars that took place over nearly 100 years before the
final conquest of Quebec City in 1759)
The Expulsion of the Acadians. (Well, most of them anyway. They still
exist and seem to have a vibrant culture in New Brunswick (and enclaves
of Nova Scotia and PEI) to this day.) Good ol' Lord Durham....

I'm afraid you're mistaken in your recollection of the timing of the
Expulsion. That happened concurrently with the Seven Years War, the same
war that saw Quebec fall to the English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians

Oh, hold on, you're saying that Durham's report was nearly a century
after the expulsion, aren't you? In that case, you are much less
incorrect :-)
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-16 21:03:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 11:41:07 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Will never forget my first weekend in Winnipeg years ago when I
pronounced the main street of Winnipeg the French way (port'ahj)
instead of (Port-Age) the way the locals do. "You're not from around
here are you?" - didn't make me feel any less miserable in the January
-35 weather - it was the first winter of my life not spent in either
BC or California.....
I can only imagine, having lived in southern Ontario all my life. We're
probably the second mildest part of Canada in winter after south-coastal
BC, and it's almost never -35 here. We don't get things as mild as the
Vancouver area though so the shock of -35 must have been ever worse for
you.
My mother was ready to send me a ticket home to Vancouver after she
heard "adjusted for wind chill -90" ... my other memory of my first
week in Winnipeg was walking down to Portage & Main (about 3 blocks),
seeing absolutely nobody on the streets about 1/2 hour after sunset
(remember it was -35 and blowing through the towers of Portage and
Main!) .... and nobody told me about the network of underground
walkways until 4 days later! uh....

(30 years later I hear it's a much broader area of downtown covered by
these which is highly un-surprising)
Post by Rhino
There's a guy at one of my IT meetups that emigrated from Johannesburg -
where it is hardly ever outside of the 60-80F range - just short of a
year ago. I was talking to him at the meetup this past week and was
pleasantly surprised to find that he and his family seemed to be
enduring their first Canadian winter quite well. I would have thought
he'd be really discouraged and starting to think very seriously about
Australia or New Zealand instead to be in a more familiar climate but
that doesn't seem to be the case.
I have a South African employee also from the Transvaal who has
commented on Canadian winters but she's in Vancouver which in winter
is a very far cry from Winnipeg or even Toronto.
Post by Rhino
The Expulsion of the Acadians. (Well, most of them anyway. They still
exist and seem to have a vibrant culture in New Brunswick (and enclaves
of Nova Scotia and PEI) to this day.) Good ol' Lord Durham....
I'm afraid you're mistaken in your recollection of the timing of the
Expulsion. That happened concurrently with the Seven Years War, the same
war that saw Quebec fall to the English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians
Oh, hold on, you're saying that Durham's report was nearly a century
after the expulsion, aren't you? In that case, you are much less
incorrect :-)
The expulsions were roughly 1750s-60s, Durham's report was 1839.

An abridged version can be found at
https://www.iorg.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Lord-Durham%E2%80%99s-Report-abridged-with-more-context-.pdf

Sorry to bore all those Murrcans here but this report is considered
roughly as important in Canadian history as say the Federalist Papers
are to you folks.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-21 16:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
Well that ended in the 1920s - by the end of WW2 Montreal was a shadow
of it's former self economically and I would argue that
psychologically at least Quebec never recovered.
The 1920s seems premature to me as a point at which Montreal was in a
major state of decline. I would put that point much later. I don't think
Toronto was truly seen as having eclipsed Montreal until the early 60s.
What REALLY put the nail in the coffin was postwar immigration
primarily to Toronto - primarily German, Italian and Polish. This wave
pretty much revitalized the construction and steel industries (which
were located more in Hamilton than Toronto but the main users were the
auto industry in Oshawa and Oakville). This immigration wave largely
ignored Montreal and vaulted Toronto past Montreal.
I said late 20s as the Depression hit Quebec particularly hard and the
response was turning inwards with little population growth at the time
during which time whatever little immigration there was was going
anywhere but Quebec
But for sure there has always been the mentality even now that Quebec
was equal to the rest of Canada and that simply hasn't been the case
for 100+ years.
I've read about agricultural issues in Quebec but not the early economic
decline of Montreal itself. That's interesting.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-21 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Rhino
The NDP almost swept Quebec in 2011 and it was the first time they'd had
more than a single seat in the province. I think Quebec had had enough
of the Liberals AND the Conservatives in 2011 and voted for the NDP en
masse for the first time. They elected a bunch of MPs that weren't even
credible candidates, like university students that had never had a job
and had been aspiring to caddy at the local golf club when they suddenly
found themselves MPs. The idea that the NDP was going to hold most of
those seats was unlikely at best.
Actually the NDP had one individual seats in QC before 2011 but for
sure they were really a 'player' before 2011.
Bottom line is Quebec voters have ALWAYS voted Quebec first and to
hell with the rest of the country. And I mean that literally.
Unreconstructed southerners in the US have always despised northerners
but when push comes to shove (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 etc) have always
pulled together when there's a legitimate national interest. Not so
Quebec - as the ongoing Churchill Falls fiasco over 5 decades and
their view of Energy East proves beyond any reasonable doubt.
None of that is analogous.

For one thing, Southerners had more influence at the founding of the
republic than Northerners. Virginia was the most populated state and had
the biggest economy, supplied 6 early presidents, and largely wrote the
Constitution.

In Canada, Britain and France carried out proxy wars in the New World
because of centuries of conflict in Europe.

What became Quebec was far more heavily populated than any area the
French held further south in the 18th century. Most settlements along
the Mississippi River and its major tributaries were originally French,
hence all the French geographic names. But the French largely weren't
there by the time other settlers arrived from the East. In the 1700s,
the French were often allied with Indians against the British and settlement
of what's now the midwest was delayed for decades till various Indian
treaties were signed.

The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.

The United States in the colonial era, despite geography and weather,
didn't have all the different a settlement and immigration pattern, and
I'll remind you that there was some slavery in colonies in the North,
and northern traders carried goods produced by slavery as the South
generally didn't perform its own trading.

Yes: Post-Reconstruction and until the 1960s, the image of northerners
as Carbetbaggers and thus the South as the victim of the Civil War could
be prevelant, but the Civil War ended the question once and for all
about the Union.

My guess about Canada is it's not just a French ancestry and language
thing, but subtle and maybe not-so-subtle prejudice against Catholics
that never ever goes away because the English Civil War still goes on
centuries later. Quebec voters still feel defensive about it.
The Horny Goat
2019-03-23 03:13:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:49:09 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture in any form
now or for that matter any time post Civil War?
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States in the colonial era, despite geography and weather,
didn't have all the different a settlement and immigration pattern, and
I'll remind you that there was some slavery in colonies in the North,
and northern traders carried goods produced by slavery as the South
generally didn't perform its own trading.
While Northern merchants often handled Southern produced goods (which
to some extent or another involved slavery) Northern industrial far
exceeded that of the South which was a critical part of why 1860-65
turned out as it did.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes: Post-Reconstruction and until the 1960s, the image of northerners
as Carbetbaggers and thus the South as the victim of the Civil War could
be prevelant, but the Civil War ended the question once and for all
about the Union.
Ah - "the Lost Cause" which frankly was about as relevant as 1715 and
1745 and the memory of Charles Stuart (both of em) was to modern
Britain.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My guess about Canada is it's not just a French ancestry and language
thing, but subtle and maybe not-so-subtle prejudice against Catholics
that never ever goes away because the English Civil War still goes on
centuries later. Quebec voters still feel defensive about it.
Anti-Catholicism hasn't been a factor in Canada for more than 100
years and Quebec has been the most secular corner of North America for
at least 50 years. I'll grant you there's a tribal mentality in Quebec
as demonstrated regularly by Quebec politicians who routinely say
"Quebecois" meaning ONLY those of French heritage (which is about
82-86% of the population) ignoring those of other backgrounds. Which
is bigotry but there's definitely 'wink wink nudge nudge' in Quebec
politics both provincially and federally.

As a Westerner I >DON'T< think it's anti-Quebec to say that there's
something wrong with the fact that Quebec NEVER loses seats in
Parliament following an electoral redistribution to the extent that
the average federal seat in Quebec has 20-25% fewer electors than
those in BC and Alberta meaning THEIR votes are 20-25% more valuable
than ours.

I do NOT support western secession but for sure BC and Alberta would
have more justification to secede than Quebec does and the fact the
government of Alberta supplies 75+% of federal "equalization payments"
while running a deficit while the government of Quebec collects 70% of
the EPs (about $8-9 billion/year) while running surpluses is more than
minimally unjust.
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-23 03:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture in any form
now or for that matter any time post Civil War?
Lots of geographic names throughout the midwest don't count?
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States in the colonial era, despite geography and weather,
didn't have all the different a settlement and immigration pattern, and
I'll remind you that there was some slavery in colonies in the North,
and northern traders carried goods produced by slavery as the South
generally didn't perform its own trading.
While Northern merchants often handled Southern produced goods (which
to some extent or another involved slavery) Northern industrial far
exceeded that of the South which was a critical part of why 1860-65
turned out as it did.
That was a few decades later. Slavery held the South back economically,
and the poor suckers who died fighting for the Southern culture were
fighting to hang on to a way of life they clearly didn't benefit from.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes: Post-Reconstruction and until the 1960s, the image of northerners
as Carbetbaggers and thus the South as the victim of the Civil War could
be prevelant, but the Civil War ended the question once and for all
about the Union.
Ah - "the Lost Cause" which frankly was about as relevant as 1715 and
1745 and the memory of Charles Stuart (both of em) was to modern
Britain.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My guess about Canada is it's not just a French ancestry and language
thing, but subtle and maybe not-so-subtle prejudice against Catholics
that never ever goes away because the English Civil War still goes on
centuries later. Quebec voters still feel defensive about it.
Anti-Catholicism hasn't been a factor in Canada for more than 100
years and Quebec has been the most secular corner of North America for
at least 50 years. I'll grant you there's a tribal mentality in Quebec
as demonstrated regularly by Quebec politicians who routinely say
"Quebecois" meaning ONLY those of French heritage (which is about
82-86% of the population) ignoring those of other backgrounds. Which
is bigotry but there's definitely 'wink wink nudge nudge' in Quebec
politics both provincially and federally.
Defensive about French heritage without religious implications... I
really don't understand it.
Post by The Horny Goat
As a Westerner I >DON'T< think it's anti-Quebec to say that there's
something wrong with the fact that Quebec NEVER loses seats in
Parliament following an electoral redistribution to the extent that
the average federal seat in Quebec has 20-25% fewer electors than
those in BC and Alberta meaning THEIR votes are 20-25% more valuable
than ours.
Interesting.
Post by The Horny Goat
I do NOT support western secession but for sure BC and Alberta would
have more justification to secede than Quebec does and the fact the
government of Alberta supplies 75+% of federal "equalization payments"
while running a deficit while the government of Quebec collects 70% of
the EPs (about $8-9 billion/year) while running surpluses is more than
minimally unjust.
Ouch.
Rhino
2019-03-23 04:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture in any form
now or for that matter any time post Civil War?
Lots of geographic names throughout the midwest don't count?
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States in the colonial era, despite geography and weather,
didn't have all the different a settlement and immigration pattern, and
I'll remind you that there was some slavery in colonies in the North,
and northern traders carried goods produced by slavery as the South
generally didn't perform its own trading.
While Northern merchants often handled Southern produced goods (which
to some extent or another involved slavery) Northern industrial far
exceeded that of the South which was a critical part of why 1860-65
turned out as it did.
That was a few decades later. Slavery held the South back economically,
and the poor suckers who died fighting for the Southern culture were
fighting to hang on to a way of life they clearly didn't benefit from.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes: Post-Reconstruction and until the 1960s, the image of northerners
as Carbetbaggers and thus the South as the victim of the Civil War could
be prevelant, but the Civil War ended the question once and for all
about the Union.
Ah - "the Lost Cause" which frankly was about as relevant as 1715 and
1745 and the memory of Charles Stuart (both of em) was to modern
Britain.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My guess about Canada is it's not just a French ancestry and language
thing, but subtle and maybe not-so-subtle prejudice against Catholics
that never ever goes away because the English Civil War still goes on
centuries later. Quebec voters still feel defensive about it.
Anti-Catholicism hasn't been a factor in Canada for more than 100
years and Quebec has been the most secular corner of North America for
at least 50 years. I'll grant you there's a tribal mentality in Quebec
as demonstrated regularly by Quebec politicians who routinely say
"Quebecois" meaning ONLY those of French heritage (which is about
82-86% of the population) ignoring those of other backgrounds. Which
is bigotry but there's definitely 'wink wink nudge nudge' in Quebec
politics both provincially and federally.
Defensive about French heritage without religious implications... I
really don't understand it.
They worry about losing their culture, especially their language. They
don't want to find that their kids or grandkids can't speak French.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
As a Westerner I >DON'T< think it's anti-Quebec to say that there's
something wrong with the fact that Quebec NEVER loses seats in
Parliament following an electoral redistribution to the extent that
the average federal seat in Quebec has 20-25% fewer electors than
those in BC and Alberta meaning THEIR votes are 20-25% more valuable
than ours.
Interesting.
Post by The Horny Goat
I do NOT support western secession but for sure BC and Alberta would
have more justification to secede than Quebec does and the fact the
government of Alberta supplies 75+% of federal "equalization payments"
while running a deficit while the government of Quebec collects 70% of
the EPs (about $8-9 billion/year) while running surpluses is more than
minimally unjust.
Ouch.
Of course the deficits in Alberta are because they've had the NDP in
power for the last 4 years - for the first (and hopefully last) time.
The NDP loves to spend money and the current premier is no exception.
But an election campaign has just started so there are strong
expectations that the NDP will be back to a minority status after the
votes are counted a month from now. (Our election campaigns are much
shorter than yours in the US: from the "dropping of the writ" (which
means the election period is beginning) to the announcing of the
election result averages just a month, both federally and provincially.)
--
Rhino
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-23 04:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture in any form
now or for that matter any time post Civil War?
Lots of geographic names throughout the midwest don't count?
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States in the colonial era, despite geography and weather,
didn't have all the different a settlement and immigration pattern, and
I'll remind you that there was some slavery in colonies in the North,
and northern traders carried goods produced by slavery as the South
generally didn't perform its own trading.
While Northern merchants often handled Southern produced goods (which
to some extent or another involved slavery) Northern industrial far
exceeded that of the South which was a critical part of why 1860-65
turned out as it did.
That was a few decades later. Slavery held the South back economically,
and the poor suckers who died fighting for the Southern culture were
fighting to hang on to a way of life they clearly didn't benefit from.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes: Post-Reconstruction and until the 1960s, the image of northerners
as Carbetbaggers and thus the South as the victim of the Civil War could
be prevelant, but the Civil War ended the question once and for all
about the Union.
Ah - "the Lost Cause" which frankly was about as relevant as 1715 and
1745 and the memory of Charles Stuart (both of em) was to modern
Britain.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My guess about Canada is it's not just a French ancestry and language
thing, but subtle and maybe not-so-subtle prejudice against Catholics
that never ever goes away because the English Civil War still goes on
centuries later. Quebec voters still feel defensive about it.
Anti-Catholicism hasn't been a factor in Canada for more than 100
years and Quebec has been the most secular corner of North America for
at least 50 years. I'll grant you there's a tribal mentality in Quebec
as demonstrated regularly by Quebec politicians who routinely say
"Quebecois" meaning ONLY those of French heritage (which is about
82-86% of the population) ignoring those of other backgrounds. Which
is bigotry but there's definitely 'wink wink nudge nudge' in Quebec
politics both provincially and federally.
Defensive about French heritage without religious implications... I
really don't understand it.
They worry about losing their culture, especially their language. They
don't want to find that their kids or grandkids can't speak French.
Ok.

Given that the rest of Canada bends over backwards to keep them happy,
this fear still sounds irrational.
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
As a Westerner I >DON'T< think it's anti-Quebec to say that there's
something wrong with the fact that Quebec NEVER loses seats in
Parliament following an electoral redistribution to the extent that
the average federal seat in Quebec has 20-25% fewer electors than
those in BC and Alberta meaning THEIR votes are 20-25% more valuable
than ours.
Interesting.
Post by The Horny Goat
I do NOT support western secession but for sure BC and Alberta would
have more justification to secede than Quebec does and the fact the
government of Alberta supplies 75+% of federal "equalization payments"
while running a deficit while the government of Quebec collects 70% of
the EPs (about $8-9 billion/year) while running surpluses is more than
minimally unjust.
Ouch.
Of course the deficits in Alberta are because they've had the NDP in
power for the last 4 years - for the first (and hopefully last) time.
The NDP loves to spend money and the current premier is no exception.
But an election campaign has just started so there are strong
expectations that the NDP will be back to a minority status after the
votes are counted a month from now. (Our election campaigns are much
shorter than yours in the US: from the "dropping of the writ" (which
means the election period is beginning) to the announcing of the
election result averages just a month, both federally and provincially.)
Thanks
Rhino
2019-03-23 15:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture in any form
now or for that matter any time post Civil War?
Lots of geographic names throughout the midwest don't count?
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States in the colonial era, despite geography and weather,
didn't have all the different a settlement and immigration pattern, and
I'll remind you that there was some slavery in colonies in the North,
and northern traders carried goods produced by slavery as the South
generally didn't perform its own trading.
While Northern merchants often handled Southern produced goods (which
to some extent or another involved slavery) Northern industrial far
exceeded that of the South which was a critical part of why 1860-65
turned out as it did.
That was a few decades later. Slavery held the South back economically,
and the poor suckers who died fighting for the Southern culture were
fighting to hang on to a way of life they clearly didn't benefit from.
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Yes: Post-Reconstruction and until the 1960s, the image of northerners
as Carbetbaggers and thus the South as the victim of the Civil War could
be prevelant, but the Civil War ended the question once and for all
about the Union.
Ah - "the Lost Cause" which frankly was about as relevant as 1715 and
1745 and the memory of Charles Stuart (both of em) was to modern
Britain.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
My guess about Canada is it's not just a French ancestry and language
thing, but subtle and maybe not-so-subtle prejudice against Catholics
that never ever goes away because the English Civil War still goes on
centuries later. Quebec voters still feel defensive about it.
Anti-Catholicism hasn't been a factor in Canada for more than 100
years and Quebec has been the most secular corner of North America for
at least 50 years. I'll grant you there's a tribal mentality in Quebec
as demonstrated regularly by Quebec politicians who routinely say
"Quebecois" meaning ONLY those of French heritage (which is about
82-86% of the population) ignoring those of other backgrounds. Which
is bigotry but there's definitely 'wink wink nudge nudge' in Quebec
politics both provincially and federally.
Defensive about French heritage without religious implications... I
really don't understand it.
They worry about losing their culture, especially their language. They
don't want to find that their kids or grandkids can't speak French.
Ok.
Given that the rest of Canada bends over backwards to keep them happy,
this fear still sounds irrational.
Not as irrational as it may sound. Remember, they are an island of
French in an ocean of English. They get the English language media from
the rest of Canada and lots of American media as well. But until the
advent of the internet they had no real access to French media from
Europe. It would be all too easy for them to lose their language as the
kids learn English and it gradually displaces French.

The even bigger problem is that if their English is good enough, there
is increasing risk that they will be lured to the rest of Canada or the
US to work, which may very well mean that their kids and grandkids will
end up living elsewhere, and eventually assimilate entirely into the
English-speaking culture. Remember, they've seen that happen over the
years. Significant numbers of francophones from Quebec went to the US,
especially New England, in the lean years of various depressions in the
late 1800s through the Great Depression. That's why it's not unusual to
find French names among people in Boston and other parts of New England.
Precious few of those people still speak French though since they've all
assimilated and essentially lost their Quebec culture. (I learned
recently that Jack Kerouac came from such a family and lived in a small
mostly-French community in New England and grew up in French.) And of
course many people from Quebec have moved to various parts of Canada and
likewise between largely assimilated. My boss, for example, has
ancestors from Quebec but doesn't speak a word of the language himself.
His parents may know some French but I don't really know when the family
moved to Ontario so he may have to go back additional generations to
find a French-speaker.

Montreal is an odd place. I had some classes there are one point and
talked to people in the class, many of whom had French names but spoke
little or no French. But you also get people with Irish names who speak
little if any English; they were the descendants of Irish orphans who
were sent to Quebec during the Potato Famine and managed to elicit one
promise from the authorities in Quebec to preserve *Irish* culture: they
didn't have to give up their Irish names. Quebec honoured that promise
but took in these orphans and raised them in French. As a result, you
can meet someone named, say, Blackburn, who is as close to monolingual
in French as many people from Quebec are.

So, Quebec has created various laws over the years to try to stop the
erosion of their language. For instance, they set up rules to ensure
that any bilingual sign had to have the French first and at least twice
as big as the English to prove the primacy of French. Store employees
have to greet customers in French first regardless of any other factor
like knowing that the customer is English-speaking because he/she has
been there before or the store owner being an English-speaker. They've
actually got "language police" that will fine people who disobey these
laws.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by The Horny Goat
As a Westerner I >DON'T< think it's anti-Quebec to say that there's
something wrong with the fact that Quebec NEVER loses seats in
Parliament following an electoral redistribution to the extent that
the average federal seat in Quebec has 20-25% fewer electors than
those in BC and Alberta meaning THEIR votes are 20-25% more valuable
than ours.
Interesting.
Post by The Horny Goat
I do NOT support western secession but for sure BC and Alberta would
have more justification to secede than Quebec does and the fact the
government of Alberta supplies 75+% of federal "equalization payments"
while running a deficit while the government of Quebec collects 70% of
the EPs (about $8-9 billion/year) while running surpluses is more than
minimally unjust.
Ouch.
Of course the deficits in Alberta are because they've had the NDP in
power for the last 4 years - for the first (and hopefully last) time.
The NDP loves to spend money and the current premier is no exception.
But an election campaign has just started so there are strong
expectations that the NDP will be back to a minority status after the
votes are counted a month from now. (Our election campaigns are much
shorter than yours in the US: from the "dropping of the writ" (which
means the election period is beginning) to the announcing of the
election result averages just a month, both federally and provincially.)
Thanks
--
Rhino
Adam H. Kerman
2019-03-24 22:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
. . .
Montreal is an odd place. I had some classes there are one point and
talked to people in the class, many of whom had French names but spoke
little or no French. But you also get people with Irish names who speak
little if any English; they were the descendants of Irish orphans who
were sent to Quebec during the Potato Famine and managed to elicit one
promise from the authorities in Quebec to preserve *Irish* culture: they
didn't have to give up their Irish names. Quebec honoured that promise
but took in these orphans and raised them in French. As a result, you
can meet someone named, say, Blackburn, who is as close to monolingual
in French as many people from Quebec are.
That's interesting, but if the kid wasn't actually adopted, why would it
even be a question of changing his name?
Post by Rhino
So, Quebec has created various laws over the years to try to stop the
erosion of their language. For instance, they set up rules to ensure
that any bilingual sign had to have the French first and at least twice
as big as the English to prove the primacy of French. Store employees
have to greet customers in French first regardless of any other factor
like knowing that the customer is English-speaking because he/she has
been there before or the store owner being an English-speaker. They've
actually got "language police" that will fine people who disobey these
laws.
I always found it curious how today's thinking of criticizing well
respected historical figures who supported assimilation of First Nations
into Canadian society, with relocation of peoples and forced education
of their children, ignores Quebec laws forcing the use of French
language in preference to English. One destroyed culture while the other
maintains culture, even though in both cases, people were being forced
to act against their will?

Oscar Peterson, born in Montreal, had made any number of public
statements objecting to such French-preferential laws and for much of
his career, he refused to perform in Montreal in protest.
Rhino
2019-03-25 13:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
. . .
Montreal is an odd place. I had some classes there are one point and
talked to people in the class, many of whom had French names but spoke
little or no French. But you also get people with Irish names who speak
little if any English; they were the descendants of Irish orphans who
were sent to Quebec during the Potato Famine and managed to elicit one
promise from the authorities in Quebec to preserve *Irish* culture: they
didn't have to give up their Irish names. Quebec honoured that promise
but took in these orphans and raised them in French. As a result, you
can meet someone named, say, Blackburn, who is as close to monolingual
in French as many people from Quebec are.
That's interesting, but if the kid wasn't actually adopted, why would it
even be a question of changing his name?
I truly don't know. I simply don't know what the customs were on
changing names in those days. Perhaps they'd routinely give them local
names to help them assimilate better??
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Rhino
So, Quebec has created various laws over the years to try to stop the
erosion of their language. For instance, they set up rules to ensure
that any bilingual sign had to have the French first and at least twice
as big as the English to prove the primacy of French. Store employees
have to greet customers in French first regardless of any other factor
like knowing that the customer is English-speaking because he/she has
been there before or the store owner being an English-speaker. They've
actually got "language police" that will fine people who disobey these
laws.
I always found it curious how today's thinking of criticizing well
respected historical figures who supported assimilation of First Nations
into Canadian society, with relocation of peoples and forced education
of their children, ignores Quebec laws forcing the use of French
language in preference to English. One destroyed culture while the other
maintains culture, even though in both cases, people were being forced
to act against their will?
It's all some form of "social engineering": if only we make people do X,
problems Y and Z will vanish eventually (or at least we hope they will).
But values change over time so the "engineering changes" also vary with
time.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Oscar Peterson, born in Montreal, had made any number of public
statements objecting to such French-preferential laws and for much of
his career, he refused to perform in Montreal in protest.
Those laws only started in the 1970s when Quebec nationalism was at a
peak and the Quebecois thought themselves threatened with the loss of
their culture. Right through the end of the 50s, they'd spent centuries
in a docile state of subservience to the priests who essentially told
them to go along to get along. Finally, there was an awakening and a lot
of them stepped away from the church and started to press for changes.
Some of that was expressed in the form of terrorism: they started
blowing up mailboxes, which they saw as a symbol of oppression by the
English majority in the country (and a symbol of the Crown too: as I
recall, there used to be graphics of the Crown on each mailbox when
postal service was still as a direct government operation). There were
also two kidnappings, one of a British envoy and one of a cabinet
minister in the Quebec government, both in 1970. The Prime Minister at
the time, the current PM's father, declared martial law to deal with the
situation and the army was deployed on the streets. The British envoy
survived his kidnapping but the minister was strangled by his captors.
Both kidnappings were conducted by two distinct cells of the same
radical group, the FLQ (Quebec Liberation Front). A man named Rene
Levesque left his provincial party and formed a new party called the
Parti Quebecois with a goal of separating from Canada altogether. After
a couple of elections, they actually got into power and organized a
referendum to get Quebec's approval to negotiate separation from Canada.
They lost the 1980 referendum (and a later one in 1995 by a very narrow
margin) but, as you can probably imagine, sentiment for a separate
Quebec was very high in those days. I well remember being in Montreal in
1980, shortly before the 1980 referendum, seeing the blue Quebec flag
flying from many many windows and the Canadian flag being visible only
in front of federal buildings. The language laws were actually attempts
by moderates to come up with some way for the Quebecois to restore their
dignity and preserve their culture short of separation and I suppose the
non-francophone minority - and the Rest of Canada - accepted it, however
grudgingly, in that spirit. Not that some people didn't resent it a lot,
both in Quebec and outside.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-26 00:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
1980, shortly before the 1980 referendum, seeing the blue Quebec flag
flying from many many windows and the Canadian flag being visible only
in front of federal buildings. The language laws were actually attempts
by moderates to come up with some way for the Quebecois to restore their
dignity and preserve their culture short of separation and I suppose the
non-francophone minority - and the Rest of Canada - accepted it, however
grudgingly, in that spirit. Not that some people didn't resent it a lot,
both in Quebec and outside.
I don't buy that - Bill101 and the other 70s era language legislation
was brought in by the very people that quarterbacked the 1980
secession referendum and fought for it to pass.

Funny idea of 'moderates' if you ask me

They were only "moderate" in the sense the "extremists" wanted to
separate WITHOUT a referendum.

anim8rfsk
2019-03-23 04:21:17 UTC
Permalink
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
March 22, 2019 at 8:13:37 PM MST
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:49:09 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Rhino
2019-03-23 15:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
March 22, 2019 at 8:13:37 PM MST
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:49:09 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-23 15:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
March 22, 2019 at 8:13:37 PM MST
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:49:09 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
"Yogurt has an active culture"

:D
--
Join your old RAT friends at
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Rhino
2019-03-23 17:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
March 22, 2019 at 8:13:37 PM MST
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:49:09 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
"Yogurt has an active culture"
:D
Just don't say that in Quebec - it'll probably cause an incident ;-)

Besides, it's not actually true. They've got their own TV shows and
music and writers, a major portion of which are unfamiliar outside of
Quebec. Sometimes, they develop a following outside of Quebec. I
remember friends that had co-op work terms in Quebec that got into some
of the Quebec bands, like Harmonium. I saw them twice, in Ontario,
performing in French. Here's one short song, just to give you a taste:


I think you'll agree that it's a perfectly good song, even if you can't
follow the lyrics. (For what it's worth, I can't follow them entirely
myself: the title is "For A Moment" and I get *some* of the rest but
certainly not all of it).

According to YouTube, Harmonium actually toured as far as California,
which surprises me since I'm having trouble imagining them having enough
fans there to fill a venue. But I believe they did very well in Quebec
for many years and they had good turnouts at the two shows I saw in
Ontario, although I don't remember them touring outside of Quebec a
whole lot.

And don't forget that Celine Dion is from Quebec and she's known around
the world. (And no, I'm not a fan but she's certainly got a huge
following.) I have no idea if she still sings the occasional song in
French when she's doing a show but she hasn't forgotten her roots. The
last time I was in Montreal on business, I happened to be near the major
concert venue - I can't remember if it's the hockey rink where the
Montreal Canadiens play or a facility actually designed for concerts -
and she was doing SEVEN back-to-back shows. That's pretty amazing. I
can't see the promoters booking her in for seven straight shows unless
they figured they'd sell most of those seats.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-23 19:22:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:38:38 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
And don't forget that Celine Dion is from Quebec and she's known around
the world. (And no, I'm not a fan but she's certainly got a huge
following.) I have no idea if she still sings the occasional song in
French when she's doing a show but she hasn't forgotten her roots. The
last time I was in Montreal on business, I happened to be near the major
concert venue - I can't remember if it's the hockey rink where the
Montreal Canadiens play or a facility actually designed for concerts -
and she was doing SEVEN back-to-back shows. That's pretty amazing. I
can't see the promoters booking her in for seven straight shows unless
they figured they'd sell most of those seats.
I've said at least a couple of times that Celine Dion is the United
States' best reason to declare war on Canada.

(I have also made the same comment about William Shatner during a
period he was villified for his role as Denny Crane on Boston Legal.
Never did understand that - Crane was a villain and actors playing
villains are expected to be "pieces of work" right? I think the
argument was that the Shat was having too much fun as Crane!)
Rhino
2019-03-23 19:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:38:38 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
And don't forget that Celine Dion is from Quebec and she's known around
the world. (And no, I'm not a fan but she's certainly got a huge
following.) I have no idea if she still sings the occasional song in
French when she's doing a show but she hasn't forgotten her roots. The
last time I was in Montreal on business, I happened to be near the major
concert venue - I can't remember if it's the hockey rink where the
Montreal Canadiens play or a facility actually designed for concerts -
and she was doing SEVEN back-to-back shows. That's pretty amazing. I
can't see the promoters booking her in for seven straight shows unless
they figured they'd sell most of those seats.
I've said at least a couple of times that Celine Dion is the United
States' best reason to declare war on Canada.
I'm not into her music either but we were talking about the culture of
Quebec so it felt appropriate to mention her, like her or not. My point
was simply that Quebec culture is not *entirely* isolated to Quebec.
Post by The Horny Goat
(I have also made the same comment about William Shatner during a
period he was villified for his role as Denny Crane on Boston Legal.
Never did understand that - Crane was a villain and actors playing
villains are expected to be "pieces of work" right? I think the
argument was that the Shat was having too much fun as Crane!)
Speaking of Quebec culture, I failed to mention Shatner, who is from
Montreal. (One of my friends had grandparents who lived down the street
from him as a child. They were much older of course but they had a
negative impression of him even then.) He's arguably a much bigger star
than Celine Dion, although of course he's not a francophone. (I've never
heard him speak French and I'm not sure he can.) But he is arguably a
product of Quebec culture since Quebec has its own minorities, including
anglophones and other groups like Haitians, Arabs, etc.
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-23 21:46:33 UTC
Permalink
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
March 23, 2019 at 12:59:32 PM MST
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:38:38 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
And don't forget that Celine Dion is from Quebec and she's known around
the world. (And no, I'm not a fan but she's certainly got a huge
following.) I have no idea if she still sings the occasional song in
French when she's doing a show but she hasn't forgotten her roots. The
last time I was in Montreal on business, I happened to be near the major
concert venue - I can't remember if it's the hockey rink where the
Montreal Canadiens play or a facility actually designed for concerts -
and she was doing SEVEN back-to-back shows. That's pretty amazing. I
can't see the promoters booking her in for seven straight shows unless
they figured they'd sell most of those seats.
I've said at least a couple of times that Celine Dion is the United
States' best reason to declare war on Canada.
I'm not into her music either but we were talking about the culture of
Quebec so it felt appropriate to mention her, like her or not. My point
was simply that Quebec culture is not *entirely* isolated to Quebec.
Post by The Horny Goat
(I have also made the same comment about William Shatner during a
period he was villified for his role as Denny Crane on Boston Legal.
Never did understand that - Crane was a villain and actors playing
villains are expected to be "pieces of work" right? I think the
argument was that the Shat was having too much fun as Crane!)
Speaking of Quebec culture, I failed to mention Shatner, who is from
Montreal. (One of my friends had grandparents who lived down the street
from him as a child. They were much older of course but they had a
negative impression of him even then.) He's arguably a much bigger star
than Celine Dion, although of course he's not a francophone. (I've never
heard him speak French and I'm not sure he can.)

--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Rhino
2019-03-23 22:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
[OT] Canadian PM in the heart of a major political scandal - could go to jail
for 10 years
March 23, 2019 at 12:59:32 PM MST
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:38:38 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
And don't forget that Celine Dion is from Quebec and she's known around
the world. (And no, I'm not a fan but she's certainly got a huge
following.) I have no idea if she still sings the occasional song in
French when she's doing a show but she hasn't forgotten her roots. The
last time I was in Montreal on business, I happened to be near the major
concert venue - I can't remember if it's the hockey rink where the
Montreal Canadiens play or a facility actually designed for concerts -
and she was doing SEVEN back-to-back shows. That's pretty amazing. I
can't see the promoters booking her in for seven straight shows unless
they figured they'd sell most of those seats.
I've said at least a couple of times that Celine Dion is the United
States' best reason to declare war on Canada.
I'm not into her music either but we were talking about the culture of
Quebec so it felt appropriate to mention her, like her or not. My point
was simply that Quebec culture is not *entirely* isolated to Quebec.
Post by The Horny Goat
(I have also made the same comment about William Shatner during a
period he was villified for his role as Denny Crane on Boston Legal.
Never did understand that - Crane was a villain and actors playing
villains are expected to be "pieces of work" right? I think the
argument was that the Shat was having too much fun as Crane!)
Speaking of Quebec culture, I failed to mention Shatner, who is from
Montreal. (One of my friends had grandparents who lived down the street
from him as a child. They were much older of course but they had a
negative impression of him even then.) He's arguably a much bigger star
than Celine Dion, although of course he's not a francophone. (I've never
heard him speak French and I'm not sure he can.)
http://youtu.be/nrMUHDVTA7s
I just found this interview/interrogation fragment (8 minutes long)
where he talks a bit about having spoken French as a kid. That starts
just after the 5 minute mark.


Apparently, they spoke English at home but lived in a mixed
English/French neighbourhood so he learned French on the streets playing
with friends. He says he went to Hebrew school, which I assume was in
English (and/or Yiddish and/or Hebrew) rather than French but I could be
wrong. Apparently, his parents both spoke French, his mother because
she'd learned it having grown up in Canada and studying it in school and
his father because he needed it to do business in Montreal.

The clip you linked shows us he probably doesn't retain much of whatever
French he knew. Or maybe he was just having fun and downplayed his
French dramatically. I found another clip where he was interviewed in
French while in France and he always replies in English and never
attempts any French, suggesting he is not comfortable trying whatever
French he does know. Or maybe he felt it more important to communicate
accurately and left it to the interpreter to render his English into
proper French without losing the meaning.
--
Rhino
The Horny Goat
2019-03-23 19:19:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:24:10 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
While I'm quite sure you're right I did ask a serious question as to
whether there are signs of French culture anywhere in the former
French Louisiana territories.

Place names don't count - Couer d'Alene ID is no more French than
Bismark, ND is German.
Rhino
2019-03-23 20:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:24:10 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
While I'm quite sure you're right I did ask a serious question as to
whether there are signs of French culture anywhere in the former
French Louisiana territories.
Place names don't count - Couer d'Alene ID is no more French than
Bismark, ND is German.
Place names are pretty much the only vestiges of French culture I know
of outside of Louisiana and New England. (I did see a number of French
place names on my travels in the US, including Detroit, Des Plaines,
Vermillion something (Ohio), Pierre SD, etc. but I'd be shocked if you
could find actual French-speaking communities in those areas; more
likely, you'd get distant descendants of French people who had long
since been assimilated into the English culture.)

Mind you, I could be wrong. I recently learned that there is actually a
dialect of German unique to Texas! I saw a video on YouTube and it was
looking at Texas German, which was - and is - a real thing, although
there aren't a lot of people who speak it any more. There *were* a fair
number of Germans who emigrated to the US over the past couple of
centuries and some of them clustered together and still speak their
version of German. I don't think Heinlein or Eisenhower actually *spoke*
German but I'll bet some of their elders did.

Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
--
Rhino
Rhino
2019-03-23 20:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:24:10 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
While I'm quite sure you're right I did ask a serious question as to
whether there are signs of French culture anywhere in the former
French Louisiana territories.
Place names don't count - Couer d'Alene ID is no more French than
Bismark, ND is German.
Place names are pretty much the only vestiges of French culture I know
of outside of Louisiana and New England. (I did see a number of French
place names on my travels in the US, including Detroit, Des Plaines,
Vermillion something (Ohio), Pierre SD, etc. but I'd be shocked if you
could find actual French-speaking communities in those areas; more
likely, you'd get distant descendants of French people who had long
since been assimilated into the English culture.)
Mind you, I could be wrong. I recently learned that there is actually a
dialect of German unique to Texas! I saw a video on YouTube and it was
looking at Texas German, which was - and is - a real thing, although
there aren't a lot of people who speak it any more. There *were* a fair
number of Germans who emigrated to the US over the past couple of
centuries and some of them clustered together and still speak their
version of German. I don't think Heinlein or Eisenhower actually *spoke*
German but I'll bet some of their elders did.
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
It turns out that the French are more numerous than I had allowed for!
This article goes a long way to answering your question:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Americans

Apparently, there are well over a million people who speak French at home.

It turns out that one very familiar name from US history was the son of
a French immigrant: Paul Revere. (His father's name was Rivoire but they
anglicized it in America.)
--
Rhino
A Friend
2019-03-23 22:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by The Horny Goat
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:24:10 -0400, Rhino
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by Adam H. Kerman
The United States had France as its first ally and the British were
largely hostile to the United States during the Napoleonic Wars, hence
the New World War of 1812. That, and the Louisiana Purchase was a major
annexation of the one part of the New World with a significant French
foothold.
Outside Louisiana itself, is there ANY portion of the former Louisiana
Purchase lands that have ANY significant French culture
You know the difference between France and yogurt?
I haven't heard that one but I'm guessing the answer is a slam at the
French :-)
While I'm quite sure you're right I did ask a serious question as to
whether there are signs of French culture anywhere in the former
French Louisiana territories.
Place names don't count - Couer d'Alene ID is no more French than
Bismark, ND is German.
Place names are pretty much the only vestiges of French culture I know
of outside of Louisiana and New England. (I did see a number of French
place names on my travels in the US, including Detroit, Des Plaines,
Vermillion something (Ohio), Pierre SD, etc. but I'd be shocked if you
could find actual French-speaking communities in those areas; more
likely, you'd get distant descendants of French people who had long
since been assimilated into the English culture.)
Mind you, I could be wrong. I recently learned that there is actually a
dialect of German unique to Texas! I saw a video on YouTube and it was
looking at Texas German, which was - and is - a real thing, although
there aren't a lot of people who speak it any more. There *were* a fair
number of Germans who emigrated to the US over the past couple of
centuries and some of them clustered together and still speak their
version of German. I don't think Heinlein or Eisenhower actually *spoke*
German but I'll bet some of their elders did.
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
The Horny Goat
2019-03-24 03:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?

For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Rhino
2019-03-24 03:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Read the Wikipedia article I cited elsewhere in this part of the thread
on French-Americans. It turns out 25% of the people in Maine speak
French and there are also high (but not as high) percentages in some of
the other New England states....
--
Rhino
Capricorne
2019-03-24 03:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
anim8rfsk
2019-03-24 04:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Capricorne
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
Fillion was born in Edmonton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton),
Alberta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta), Canada
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Rhino
2019-03-24 04:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Capricorne
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
Fillion was born in Edmonton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton),
Alberta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta), Canada
Oops, I owe you ice cream ;-)
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-24 05:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Capricorne
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
Fillion was born in Edmonton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton),
Alberta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta), Canada
Oops, I owe you ice cream ;-)
Yay!
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
The Horny Goat
2019-03-24 23:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Capricorne
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
Fillion was born in Edmonton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton),
Alberta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta), Canada
That said, the part about his family is probably true.

Name alone doesn't mean anything - 30 years ago my boss was a lady
named Joanne McKenzie - whose family name originated from a Scottish
Catholic who left the UK rather quickly after 1745 and 6-7 generations
later was about as "pur laine" as it gets.

She was based in Montreal and was HEAVILY in favor of Quebec
separation. Her parents insisted she be fluently bilingual but that
definitely didn't affect her political views!

She was the one who told me that the great gift the separatist cause
ever received was Pierre Trudeau's deployment of 10000+ federal troops
in Montreal both for the 1970 "October crisis" and the 1976 Summer
Olympics (most of you will remember what happened at the previous
summer Olympics and Ottawa was taking no chances).

It was felt in Montreal both deployments were larger than they needed
to be and quite heavy-handed and that that played into the separatist
argument.
Rhino
2019-03-24 04:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Capricorne
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined.  All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
According to Wikipedia:
=======================================================================
Fillion was born in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, the younger of two sons
of Robert "Bob" Fillion and June "Cookie" Fillion (née Early),[4] both
retired English teachers.[5] Both sides of his father's family were part
of the Quebec diaspora in Fall River, Massachusetts,[6][7] and his
mother had a Norwegian maternal grandfather and a Finnish maternal
grandmother.[4][8]

Fillion was raised in Edmonton's Mill Woods neighborhood[9] and
completed his secondary and post-secondary education in Edmonton,
attending Holy Trinity Catholic High School, Concordia University
College of Alberta, and the University of Alberta, where he was a member
of the Kappa Alpha Society.[10] He has been a US citizen since 1997.[11]
=======================================================================
--
Rhino
anim8rfsk
2019-03-24 05:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rhino
Post by Capricorne
Post by The Horny Goat
Post by A Friend
Post by Rhino
Perhaps there are some small French-speaking enclaves here and there
that keep a low profile and don't show up on our radar....
There are more than four times as many Haitians as French living in the
U.S., and there are more than twice as many Quebecois in the U.S. than
there are French and Haitians combined. All told, that's almost two
million people.
Is that people originating in Quebec or descended from Quebecers?
For sure there are plenty of "snowbirds" e.g. Canadians wintering in
Florida (my late grandparents did the same in AZ until the cost of
medical insurance got too absurd) or are we talking about those like
the 3rd/4th generation descendants of Quebecois emigres to VT and NH?
Nathan Fillion is probably from Quebec, well his family certainly is.
Fillion is a French-Canadian name.
=======================================================================
Fillion was born in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, the younger of two sons
of Robert "Bob" Fillion and June "Cookie" Fillion (née Early),[4] both
retired English teachers.[5] Both sides of his father's family were part
of the Quebec diaspora in Fall River, Massachusetts,[6][7] and his
mother had a Norwegian maternal grandfather and a Finnish maternal
grandmother.[4][8]
Fillion was raised in Edmonton's Mill Woods neighborhood[9] and
completed his secondary and post-secondary education in Edmonton,
attending Holy Trinity Catholic High School, Concordia University
College of Alberta, and the University of Alberta, where he was a member
of the Kappa Alpha Society.[10] He has been a US citizen since 1997.[11]
=======================================================================
Ice cream, you scream, 'cause you owe me, ice cream!!!!!
--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
RichA
2019-03-14 01:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Yes, rather than quasi-questionable but not strictly illegal things done by Trump, this was clearly a violation of the law and yet nothing will happen to Turdeau and the leftist media will soft-peddle the whole thing.
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