German pronunciation

Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.

--
Ken

Stefan Ram

2021-03-15 15:48:54 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.

"Pronounciation" was actually spelled and pronounced this
way ("-noun-") since the 16th century, among other variants
such as "pronunciation," but today it is rarely found.

In dictionaries from 1899, 1911, and 1934, I only find
"pronunciation".

The spelling "pronounciation" today is considered as wrong
by almost everyone, while the pronunciation with [-naʊn-]
occasionally occurs and is rarely considered incorrect,
although [-nʌn-] is certainly standard.

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-15 15:48:28 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2021-03-15 16:17:56 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-15 16:37:05 UTC

[pronunciation]

Post by Tony Cooper
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time

Post by Jerry Friedman
and have to correct it.

The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc.

A native example is south/southerly, southern (formerly sutherne), according
to Wikipedia.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.

Myopic/myopia, dystonic/dystonia... wait a second.

--
Jerry Friedman
Blow the wind southerly, southerly, southerly...

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 10:33:38 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.

s***@my-deja.com

2021-03-16 10:52:33 UTC

Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?

Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-16 11:07:47 UTC

Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are
left as an exercise for the student.

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

or LieDl?
Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle from Lidl.

All Die or Al Dae?

Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 01:48:43 UTC

left as an exercise for the student.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

or LieDl? Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle
from Lidl.
All Die or Al Dae?

This seems to be a good place to insert a recommendation for "The Ballad
of Lidl and Aldi". It can be found on UTube, if anyone's interested.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-17 10:12:06 UTC

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:48:43 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark
left as an exercise for the student.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

or LieDl? Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle
from Lidl.
All Die or Al Dae?

This seems to be a good place to insert a recommendation for "The Ballad
of Lidl and Aldi". It can be found on UTube, if anyone's interested.

'tis a fine thing that and all.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-03-16 12:41:12 UTC

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
be alive and well.

French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

J. J. Lodder

2021-03-16 14:33:53 UTC

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,

Jan

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-16 17:33:38 UTC

Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions
are left as an exercise for the student.

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

Post by J. J. Lodder
You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,

Can't even write proper.

Post by J. J. Lodder
Jan

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Quinn C

2021-03-16 22:21:35 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!

In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

--
... if you're going around with a red pen and apostrophe, you're
... trying to prove your superiority over people. But if you're
going around trying to use people's correct pronouns, ... you're
trying to connect with them and ... respect them.
-- Gretchen McCulloch on Factually!

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 22:45:02 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.

Quinn C

2021-03-16 23:07:00 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare character
set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader to interpret it
as Unicode in that case, as best it can. When I see that that failed, I
can manually override the guessing game, but I usually don't bother. The
problem is at the sending end, after all.

I did use Xnews in my early days in this group, but as a regular user of
German groups, I found it usable only in tandem with the KorrNews local
proxy, which adds the character set declaration and does some
rudimentary conversion of incoming Unicode.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-17 10:19:18 UTC

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original
or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought
of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my
kanji dictionary.

One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare character
set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader to interpret it

I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with
7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [� ?��] I don't.

I try adding a header.

Post by Quinn C
as Unicode in that case, as best it can. When I see that that failed,
I can manually override the guessing game, but I usually don't bother.
The problem is at the sending end, after all.
I did use Xnews in my early days in this group, but as a regular user
of German groups, I found it usable only in tandem with the KorrNews
local proxy, which adds the character set declaration and does some
rudimentary conversion of incoming Unicode.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 10:37:55 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and
well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that
we're all supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in
French.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his
original or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki>
appears. I thought of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but
can't find that one in my kanji dictionary.

One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare
character set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader
to interpret it

I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with
7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [� ?��] I don't.

The catch is that é is not a 7-bit ASCII character.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I try adding a header.

The header helps only if it tells the truth. I see that you've added a
header saying that you are using UTF-8. If you do that, you have to
manually insert the UTF-8 encoding for each non-ASCII character, which
would be a tedious exercise. As you can see above, the Chinese quarrel
came out correctly - because you quoted it from someone who did use
UTF-8 - but your accented characters didn't.

You might try using the following instead:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as Latin-1)
is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really producing.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-17 10:46:11 UTC

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and
well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that
we're all supposed to say Beijing it's still Pèª©n in
French.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character èª© (quarrel) between the P and
the n.

That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his
original or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <Ã©ki>
appears. I thought of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but
can't find that one in my kanji dictionary.

One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare
character set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader
to interpret it

I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with
7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [ï¿½
?ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½] I don't.

The catch is that Ã© is not a 7-bit ASCII character.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I try adding a header.

The header helps only if it tells the truth. I see that you've added a
header saying that you are using UTF-8. If you do that, you have to
manually insert the UTF-8 encoding for each non-ASCII character, which
would be a tedious exercise. As you can see above, the Chinese quarrel
came out correctly - because you quoted it from someone who did use
UTF-8 - but your accented characters didn't.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
producing.

OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 11:24:06 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
producing.

OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.

This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course) is
correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.

I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-17 12:14:02 UTC

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 11:24:06 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan

OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.

This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course) is
correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.
I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.

Um OK a-e I can find: æ

Another one? æ
In the same font/charset (Vrinda) o-e

truetype Microsoft San Serif æ also a copyright symbol ©
non TT NS San Serif æ©

Looks OK going out. (But it would!)

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 01:58:26 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

The usual reason. KMJ didn't specify a character set. Some people's
newsreaders guessed Latin-1, and got it right (this time). The ones that
assumed UTF-8 got it wrong.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-17 10:23:09 UTC

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:58:26 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original
or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought
of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my
kanji dictionary.

The usual reason. KMJ didn't specify a character set. Some people's
newsreaders guessed Latin-1, and got it right (this time). The ones
that assumed UTF-8 got it wrong.

OK I've cribbed Tony's header; though I probably use UK ascii ��@`�~#\

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

s***@my-deja.com

2021-03-17 08:48:07 UTC

Post by Quinn C
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.

(Heading off topic)

What a marvellous, if little used, encapsulation of "quarrel"
Two lots of speech side by side, one slightly bigger than the other!

occam

2021-03-17 07:20:51 UTC

Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions
are left as an exercise for the student.

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

Leghorn seems to have gone,

But the chickens are still there.

That's a duck, not a chicken!

I think you mean "That's a dog, not a wolf!"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56299849

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 01:53:44 UTC

Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many
Italian cities. A good idea?

Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
be alive and well.

Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.

What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.

We now know better, having been exposed to Nealopitain ice cream.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

musika

2021-03-17 03:29:41 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.

--
Ray
UK

Mark Brader

2021-03-17 05:42:17 UTC

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...

Well, that makes sense.

I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?

--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't know about your brain,
***@vex.net | but mine is really bossy." -- Laurie Anderson

My text in this article is in the public domain.

J. J. Lodder

2021-03-17 10:24:03 UTC

Post by Mark Brader

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...

Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?

Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,

Jan

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 10:44:21 UTC

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all
sorts of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy
too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word
"Napoli" and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian
plural.

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to
Naples...

Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue
Train" (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would
the British passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used
some half-French pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?

Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,

Perhaps they thought the station name was "Beware of the lion", and
didn't make the connection with the city.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2021-03-17 12:13:37 UTC

Post by Mark Brader

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...

Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?

Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
Jan

Yes. But they would not necessarily realise that "Lyon" was a major
place the trains went to from that station. They might guess that "Lyon"
referred to its location in Paris, or that the station was named after a
person with the surname "Lyon", etc.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-03-17 10:05:47 UTC

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

That's true, I think, but why does French sometimes add an s to English
place names: Londres, Douvres, Cornouailles? This last can perhaps be
justified by the fact that France has a Cornouaille of its own.

Post by musika
A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 10:51:45 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts
of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli"
and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.

You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

OK, good point.

Post by musika
A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.

Are you suggesting that English took the name directly from the Greek? I
can understand the Italians dropping the 's', because "Napolis" wouldn't
be an Italian-sounding word, but English must have anglicised the word
before the 's' had been dropped.

Or was there a period when the Italian name really was Napolis?

Ah, now I get it. Greeks lived there before Italians did. Now it makes
sense.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2021-03-16 13:47:05 UTC

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

In the UK there are two separate Lidl companies, Lidl GB and Lidl NI.
According to the companies' adverts on YouTube, Lidl GB rhymes Lidl with
middle but Lidl NI rhymes it with needle.

Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

J. J. Lodder

2021-03-16 14:33:52 UTC

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

Yes I think, with moderation,
and if you take over a hundred years for it.
Dutch has done it wrt English.
Places like Nieuwkasteel and Haarwijk have been forgotten,
but Londen instead of London still exists,

Jan

PS And for our American friends: Zandhoek has gone too.

Quinn C

2021-03-16 16:18:33 UTC

Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities

The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.

In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.

Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.

As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible.

for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.

One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.

--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts

Tony Cooper

2021-03-16 18:54:09 UTC

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:18:33 -0400, Quinn C

The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.
In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.
Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.
As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible. http://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4 for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.

The camera name video went through a long list of camera and lens
makers that would be unfamiliar to most people. Even as a person who
is very much into photography, and follows photography news, many of
those names were unfamiliar to me.

Ikea, though, would be a company name with a high degree of name
recognition in any group.

As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

Post by Quinn C
One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-16 19:04:31 UTC

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
...

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

...

Or just as a mistake.

--
Jerry Friedman

Tony Cooper

2021-03-16 19:22:31 UTC

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

...
Or just as a mistake.

No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.

Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense

is says that

"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Peter T. Daniels

2021-03-16 20:45:39 UTC

Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense
is says that
"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."

In other words, the folks who tell you what people _do_ use -- or rather,
did use 60 years ago -- say it's in use, and the folks who like to think they
have a right or duty to tell you what you _should_ do say otherwise.

They don't, however, get to decide.

Quinn C

2021-03-16 21:17:59 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

...
Or just as a mistake.

No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.

That makes no sens!

A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 22:54:59 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

...
Or just as a mistake.

No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.

That makes no sens!
A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).

It actually makes some sense as an English spelling (cf. cleanse),
though "lenze" would be better (cf. bronze). The -ns ending usually
signals a morpheme boundary (pens, cleans).

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 03:54:21 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so highly
technical (something in physics, I think) that most people have never
heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

The search engines are being unhelpful. If I insist that "verb" must be
included in the search, I get a whole lot of results that are about verb
tenses in general (not including the one I'm looking for). What the
world lacks is a search engine that will search for precisely what you
specify, rather than what they think you should be searching for.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Ross Clark

2021-03-17 04:30:15 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so highly
technical (something in physics, I think) that most people have never
heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'.
Not seen since 1200.

But maybe you'r thinking of a geological term:

to lens out (intr.): of a body of rock: to become gradually thinner
(along a particular direction) to the point of extinction (1921, 1965)

Of course in any field where there's a noun "lens" at work, a verb can
always follow.

Post by Peter Moylan
The search engines are being unhelpful. If I insist that "verb" must be
included in the search, I get a whole lot of results that are about verb
tenses in general (not including the one I'm looking for). What the
world lacks is a search engine that will search for precisely what you
specify, rather than what they think you should be searching for.

But less technical, more common, is the use to mean "film (v)", from
1940s, probably coined by _Variety_:

1950 Variety 22 Mar. 20/1 While the pic was lensed as a locationer
in Havana, little use has been made of the Cuban capital's natural
surroundings.

From that you could easily back-form a base "lense".

Peter Moylan

2021-03-17 04:52:48 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.

I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most people
have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'. Not
seen since 1200.

I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
phenomenon well-known to astronomers.

That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It looks
as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens", without
going through a verb as an intermediary.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

CDB

2021-03-17 13:11:11 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is
when people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a
form of affectation.

I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most
people have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'.
Not seen since 1200.

I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
phenomenon well-known to astronomers.
That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It
looks as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens",
without going through a verb as an intermediary.

I tried searching for "lensing" and "lensed". Sites that admitted they
could be verb-forms seemed to go with the infinitive "lens".

i didn't try "lenser", but that might be another avenue of approach.

occam

2021-03-17 07:27:04 UTC

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!

s***@my-deja.com

2021-03-17 08:11:01 UTC

Post by occam

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!

A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a candidate being marked
down in a translation examination for writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed
to be writing in English

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-03-17 10:08:17 UTC

Post by occam

What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?

That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!

A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a candidate
being marked
down in a translation examination for writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed
to be writing in English

I think that now Braunschweig _is_ the English name. It's on its way
there anyway.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Adam Funk

2021-03-16 11:10:57 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Hypercorrection or something similar?

--
When Chayefsky created Howard Beale, could he have imagined
Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, and the World Wrestling
Federation? ---Roger Ebert

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 23:02:52 UTC

Post by Adam Funk

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Hypercorrection or something similar?

Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.

Adam Funk

2021-03-17 08:37:06 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Hypercorrection or something similar?

Fair enough.

--
No sport is less organized than Calvinball!

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-16 14:11:50 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2021-03-16 16:12:27 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)

It wouldn't be surprising to hear "obessity" from someone who didn't
know "obesity."

Wijk and other sources have several words of that sort where AmE and
BrE differ.

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-16 16:50:36 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)

...

Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2021-03-16 20:40:01 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)

...
Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?

? You must mean "diachronic." The suffix in "national" that makes the
syllable in question third-from-the end is -al. I don't know whether
"nation" has -tion in it, but I doubt it.

Also you can see from abound/abundance that there don't actually
have to be two syllables after the affected one.

The basic, unstated, assumption of C&H's SPE is that every English-
speaker has Proto-Indo-European in their head, because their rules
recapitulate the historical development of the language -- as, in fact,
it's reflected in the spelling.

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 23:06:45 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.

They were far more interested in rules than exceptions. "Tendency" was
not part of their vocabulary -- it smacked of empiricism.

Peter T. Daniels

2021-03-16 16:07:50 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 23:20:50 UTC

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?

No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.

Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?

CDB

2021-03-16 13:27:19 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/

will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with

Post by Tony Cooper
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German
names properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable
by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.

Quinn C

2021-03-16 16:18:33 UTC

Post by CDB
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.

One has to take into account that each of these is less frequent than
"pronunciation", so it may take a long time to encounter one instance of
a divergent pronunciation.

--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 23:28:13 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/

will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with

Post by Tony Cooper
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.

He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.

Certainly it is. But "Annunciation" is no longer related to "announce";
it's the name of a specific Biblical event. "Announce" and "denounce"
also have other nominalized forms available (with -ment). And is there
even a verb "enounce"? One wouldn't expect much analogical pressure in
these cases.

Graham

2021-03-15 17:35:44 UTC

I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.

CDB

2021-03-16 13:34:47 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
German names properly. Only a very few of the items will be
recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.

Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)

They pronounced their name "sowtham" ['***@m].

Ross Clark

2021-03-16 23:33:46 UTC

Post by CDB

Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
German names properly. Only a very few of the items will be
recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.

Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)

I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked in
the home-delivery field.

CDB

2021-03-17 13:24:07 UTC

Post by CDB

Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it
deals with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses)
with German names properly. Only a very few of the items will
be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this,
the speaker says the word "pronounciation" as
"pro-nownce-ee-ation". I think he says it the same in other
place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from
others, and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?

I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.

Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold
out to Conrad Black.)

I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked
in the home-delivery field.

I said it that way too, but was corrected more than once. The CBC
pronounced it with "ow" when the sale was in the news. Carleton
University has a Southam Hall with the same diphthong, and can be
presumed (I suppose) to have gotten their benefactors' name right.

All pretty shaky, though.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-03-15 17:39:42 UTC

More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Rich Ulrich

2021-03-15 19:19:40 UTC

On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"

Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.

Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).

--
Rich Ulrich

Tony Cooper

2021-03-15 19:23:37 UTC

On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"

Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).

I'll say this once to answer all who noticed it:

I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-03-15 19:27:57 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"

Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).

I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.

Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Peter T. Daniels

2021-03-15 21:26:54 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.

Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.

TC isn't part of that "we." I gave him the opportunity to bitch about
my all-caps response -- but all he did was quote the one line that
had an obvious self-correcting typo and call attention to it.

"Pronounciation" is a natural product of fingers that are accustomed
to touch-typing and access "frequency tables" in the memory.

Peter Moylan

2021-03-15 21:05:12 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"

Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).

I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.

I noticed, but thought it was deliberate.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Lewis

2021-03-15 19:28:53 UTC

I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.

The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

--
There are bad people on both sides

Graham

2021-03-15 22:46:34 UTC

Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Lewis

2021-03-16 09:43:22 UTC

Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.

Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".

Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?

--
'You make us want what we can't have and what you give us is worth
nothing and what you take is everything and all there is left for
us is the cold hillside, and emptiness, and the laughter of the
elves.'

Graham

2021-03-16 14:37:37 UTC

Post by Lewis

Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.

Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".

Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?

No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.

Lewis

2021-03-16 15:39:41 UTC

Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.

Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".

Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?

No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.

I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).

For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".

--
'And I promise you this,' he [Carrot] shouted, 'if we succeed, no-one
will remember. And if we fail, no one will forget!'

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-16 15:45:36 UTC

Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.

Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".

Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?

No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.

I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".

Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.

--
Jerry Friedman

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-03-16 17:32:29 UTC

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same
one you do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".

That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.

Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old
and wrinkled".

Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which
combines both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC
saying: "Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"

Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding
like posh Brits?

No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.

I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British
)or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".

Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.

Close enough?

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Jerry Friedman

2021-03-16 19:25:28 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman

...