Discussion:
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem
(too old to reply)
Bob Cooper
2006-01-10 13:34:06 UTC
Permalink
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090803.asp

"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.

This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.

The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.

Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST

To: ***@whitehouse.gov

Cc: ***@whitehouse.gov

Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM

Mr. President,

I would like to provide you with an explanation as to why Muhammed Ali
Hammadi's recent release by Germany, and your Administration's lack of
any attempt to prevent it, is so upsetting to our family and to Americans
everywhere. I am not writing you out of grief or anger but out of a hope
that his example will inspire you to follow act on your own words and the
dictates of your conscious in this War on Terror.

Robert Dean Stethem was singled out, beaten beyond recognition and
tortured in order to make him scream into a transmitter (so that the tower
would send a fuel truck). Not a cry was heard to come from him, despite
the brutal beating he endured. Instead he chose to remain silent and
endure the beatings because he knew that the only way a rescue attempt
could be conducted by U.S. forces was if the aircraft remained on the
ground.

After Robert was beaten and tortured and bleeding from puncture wounds
all over his body, he was placed next to a 16-year old Australian girl. As
bad as Robert was beaten, he had the courage and strength to comfort
and console her. He told her that, "She would be okay and that she would
get out of here alive." When she tried to return the comfort, he said, "No,
I don't think so. I am the only one in my group that is not married and
some of the guys have children, too." Some time later, Robert was again
taken up to the cockpit and tortured in order to get the fuel. But it didn't
work, he would not give in to them.

One of the hijackers, Muhammed Ali Hammadi, was so enraged that he
dragged Robert to the door, pulled a trigger and shot Robert in the head.
Then he dumped Robert's body onto the tarmac. While Robert was being
dragged to the door, he knew that all he had to do in order to live was to
cry into that transmitter, but he wouldn't do it. He would not give in to the
demands of the terrorists. He would not allow the honor and dignity of
America to be intimidated by the fear and pain that Hammadi and
terrorists everywhere represent. Robert sacrificed his life in order to
protect our liberty and defend our way of life.

You have rightly said, "Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring
justice to our enemies, justice will be done." You have truly said that "We
are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by
them." Robert lived by them. Robert also died by them. The motto of
the USS SSTETHEM (DDG-63), named in Robert's honor, is "Steadfast
and Courageous." I hope that his example, and the example of other
heroes like him can inspire you to understand why allowing Germany to
release Hammadi was a wrong. Justice was not done, Robert was not
honored and Americans are not safer by allowing Hammadi to return to
Lebanon and Hezbollah.

You know this, we know this and the American people know this.
=======================================================

The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.

Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.

Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
kuff (Isaac Adams)
2006-01-10 15:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Cooper
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090803.asp
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,

It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].

Please don't meddle in National Security matters.

You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".

"Keeping you safe since 2000"

George

[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r

Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.

The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.

A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.

A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...

...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
Bob Cooper
2006-01-10 15:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090803.asp
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,
It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].
Please don't meddle in National Security matters.
You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".
"Keeping you safe since 2000"
George
[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r
Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.
The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.
A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.
A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...
The lady was a spy? Sure, why not? Everyone's a spy these days.
Who cares?

The point is, Hamadi the thug is a free man. Wouldn't it be a shame
if our friend Mohammed (most of them are Mohammeds, aren't they?)
were found dead, beaten to a bloody pulp in some dismal alley in
Beirut, with a nine millimeter bullet in his head? Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?

I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?

Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.

Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
kuff (Isaac Adams)
2006-01-10 16:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090803.asp
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,
It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].
Please don't meddle in National Security matters.
You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".
"Keeping you safe since 2000"
George
[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r
Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.
The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.
A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.
A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...
The lady was a spy? Sure, why not? Everyone's a spy these days.
Who cares?
The point is, Hamadi the thug is a free man.
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a shame
if our friend Mohammed (most of them are Mohammeds, aren't they?)
were found dead, beaten to a bloody pulp in some dismal alley in
Beirut, with a nine millimeter bullet in his head?
Since you feel the law is only for kiddies I doubt it would seem a
shame to you.
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ? Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.

(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
Bob Cooper
2006-01-10 17:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090803.asp
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,
It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].
Please don't meddle in National Security matters.
You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".
"Keeping you safe since 2000"
George
[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r
Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.
The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.
A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.
A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...
The lady was a spy? Sure, why not? Everyone's a spy these days.
Who cares?
The point is, Hamadi the thug is a free man.
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
German national security?
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a shame
if our friend Mohammed (most of them are Mohammeds, aren't they?)
were found dead, beaten to a bloody pulp in some dismal alley in
Beirut, with a nine millimeter bullet in his head?
Since you feel the law is only for kiddies I doubt it would seem a
shame to you.
The law is for everyone. Even Mr. Hamadi.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Even better.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ?
Once again, you've got it backwards, Kuff. Hamadi and his
Hezbollah buddies are Murder, Inc.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
I prefer COD, but $500's a bargain. I'll take the risk. Money-back
guarantee. Verbal contract and no 1099, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
I thought so. You seem to have a flair for business :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.
Superiority? Far be it from me to claim superiority over a brutal,
vicious thug who beat a defenseless man senseless and then shot him
in the head and threw his body on the tarmac for the "crime" of being an
American.

Not at all. Didn't I say it would be a shame?
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
As expected, the distinction between murder and justice seems to elude
you.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
kuff (Isaac Adams)
2006-01-10 17:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090803.asp
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,
It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].
Please don't meddle in National Security matters.
You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".
"Keeping you safe since 2000"
George
[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r
Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.
The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.
A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.
A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...
The lady was a spy? Sure, why not? Everyone's a spy these days.
Who cares?
The point is, Hamadi the thug is a free man.
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
German national security?
Allied national security. Ken's letter pointed to a collaborative
arrangement between the US and Germany - so US National Security as
well.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a shame
if our friend Mohammed (most of them are Mohammeds, aren't they?)
were found dead, beaten to a bloody pulp in some dismal alley in
Beirut, with a nine millimeter bullet in his head?
Since you feel the law is only for kiddies I doubt it would seem a
shame to you.
The law is for everyone.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/2196ffcdc8128730

It seems the Bush administration - being a group of sane, informed
adults
- has been secretly tapping Arab terrorists [and others] without
warrants.

= = = = = = = = = =

Did you post that?
Post by Bob Cooper
Even Mr. Hamadi.
Didn't he have his day in court? Didn't he spend nearly 20 years in
prison?

You're not interested in the law if it fails to provide you the revenge
you seek. If the law is for Mr. Hamadi then you must be satisfied
with what the law has decided for Mr. Hamadi. If you want more for
Mr. Hamadi then you are effectively claiming the law is not for you.
Perhaps because you are an 'adult'? :-)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Even better.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ?
Once again, you've got it backwards, Kuff. Hamadi and his
Hezbollah buddies are Murder, Inc.
"Entrepreneurial types". Murder, Inc. You can understand my
confusion about what you are trying to say I think.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
I prefer COD, but $500's a bargain.
That's only if he doesn't have security. You know, going about town
with bodyguards and such. It's likely the $5,000 cost would need to
be incurred.
Post by Bob Cooper
I'll take the risk. Money-back
guarantee.
Nope, sorry. No refunds.
Post by Bob Cooper
Verbal contract
Of course.
Post by Bob Cooper
and no 1099, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
I thought so. You seem to have a flair for business :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.
Superiority?
Pretend!
Post by Bob Cooper
Far be it from me to claim superiority over a brutal,
vicious thug who beat a defenseless man senseless and then shot him
in the head and threw his body on the tarmac for the "crime" of being an
American.
Not at all. Didn't I say it would be a shame?
Yeah, you did. But I don't believe you.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
As expected, the distinction between murder and justice seems to elude
you.
Justice tends to fall under the law. What you are talking about is
revenge. And murder.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
Bob Cooper
2006-01-10 19:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,
It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].
Please don't meddle in National Security matters.
You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".
"Keeping you safe since 2000"
George
[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r
Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.
The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.
A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.
A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...
The lady was a spy? Sure, why not? Everyone's a spy these days.
Who cares?
The point is, Hamadi the thug is a free man.
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
German national security?
Allied national security. Ken's letter pointed to a collaborative
arrangement between the US and Germany - so US National Security as
well.
Ken's letter? You mean the "letter" you fabricated in response to
Ken's letter? Do you expect anyone to take that seriously?
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a shame
if our friend Mohammed (most of them are Mohammeds, aren't they?)
were found dead, beaten to a bloody pulp in some dismal alley in
Beirut, with a nine millimeter bullet in his head?
Since you feel the law is only for kiddies I doubt it would seem a
shame to you.
The law is for everyone.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/2196ffcdc8128730
It seems the Bush administration - being a group of sane, informed
adults
- has been secretly tapping Arab terrorists [and others] without
warrants.
= = = = = = = = = =
Did you post that?
Indeed I did, though I can't take credit for writing it. I wish I could.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Even Mr. Hamadi.
Didn't he have his day in court?
Not an American court.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Didn't he spend nearly 20 years in prison?
Yes. That's about 100 years too few; or 20 years too many,
depending on how you look at it.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
You're not interested in the law if it fails to provide you the revenge
you seek. If the law is for Mr. Hamadi then you must be satisfied
with what the law has decided for Mr. Hamadi. If you want more for
Mr. Hamadi then you are effectively claiming the law is not for you.
Perhaps because you are an 'adult'? :-)
Are you saying the law is always right? That seems a rather odd
position for a libertarian. Is exchanging convicted murderers for
hostages codified in German law?
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Even better.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ?
Once again, you've got it backwards, Kuff. Hamadi and his
Hezbollah buddies are Murder, Inc.
"Entrepreneurial types". Murder, Inc. You can understand my
confusion about what you are trying to say I think.
You know perfectly well what I'm saying. I can, however, understand
your attempt to obfuscate, having observed many such attempts in
the past.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
I prefer COD, but $500's a bargain.
That's only if he doesn't have security. You know, going about town
with bodyguards and such. It's likely the $5,000 cost would need to
be incurred.
Post by Bob Cooper
I'll take the risk. Money-back
guarantee.
Nope, sorry. No refunds.
Post by Bob Cooper
Verbal contract
Of course.
Post by Bob Cooper
and no 1099, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
I thought so. You seem to have a flair for business :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.
Superiority?
Pretend!
Post by Bob Cooper
Far be it from me to claim superiority over a brutal,
vicious thug who beat a defenseless man senseless and then shot him
in the head and threw his body on the tarmac for the "crime" of being an
American.
Not at all. Didn't I say it would be a shame?
Yeah, you did. But I don't believe you.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
As expected, the distinction between murder and justice seems to elude
you.
Justice tends to fall under the law.
In an ideal world, yes. Perhaps in Kuffland. In the real world, that goal
is elusive, at best.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
What you are talking about is revenge.
Nope. What I'm talking about (hypothetically) is one of those unfortunate
street crimes one encounters in certain alleys in Beirut. Round up the
usual suspects :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
And murder.
Indeed. The brutal, senseless murder of Robert Dean Stethem by
Muslim terrorists.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
kuff (Isaac Adams)
2006-01-10 20:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
"Justice Will Be Done"
Remembering Robert Dean Stethem.
This is a letter from Kenneth Stethem to President George W. Bush.
Ken is a former U.S. special-forces operator and the brother of Robert
Dean Stethem, the Navy diver who was brutally tortured and murdered
by Hezbollah 20 years ago. Robert's murderer was just released by
the German government (and fled to Lebanon) in an apparent exchange
for a German hostage in Iraq.
The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release and the administration
has not acted to compel the Lebanese government to arrest Stethem's
killer, Muhammad Ali Hammadi, and turn him over to face American
justice. That is why Ken Stethem, on behalf of the rest of his family
(including his and Robert's parents), has written this powerful letter.
Let's hope the president is as moved by the letter as I am.
Date: January 8, 2006 4:15:57 PM PST
Subject: ROBERT DEAN STETHEM
Dear Ken,
It was a National Security operation in conjunction with the German
BND[1].
Please don't meddle in National Security matters.
You will be subpoenaed shortly for the identity of your "sources".
"Keeping you safe since 2000"
George
[1]
http://upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060109-103853-9889r
Susanne Osthoff, the German archeologist kidnapped by Iraqi gunmen on
Nov. 25 and released before Christmas was connected with her country's
intelligence service, the BND, and had helped arrange a meeting with a
top member of the terrorist organization al-Qaida, possibly Abu Mussab
al-Zarqawi himself, according to well informed German sources Sunday.
The sources confirmed German press reports that the 43-year-old woman
had worked for the BND in Iraq on a freelance basis, and had for some
time even stayed in a German intelligence safe house in Baghdad.
A convert to Islam and a fluent Arabic speaker, Osthoff had lived in
Iraq for over a decade, and was at one time married to an Iraqi.
Archeology is a classic intelligence cover: T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of
Arabia) posed as an archeologist in the Middle East in the early part
of the last century. But archeology is Osthoff's real profession. One
Washington-based German source said Osthoff had been working on
arranging a rendezvous with an al-Qaida member on behalf of a German
intelligence agent in Iraq. Whether the meeting ever took place has not
been revealed, but another source in Berlin, reached by telephone, said
experts believed that the kidnapping may have been the work of a rival
group, possibly within the same organization.
A day after Osthoff's release, the Germans had quietly freed and sent
home to his native Lebanon Mohammed Ali Hamadi, a Hezbollah militant
serving a sentence for killing a U.S. Navy diver in a hijacked TWA
jetliner in 1985. ...
The lady was a spy? Sure, why not? Everyone's a spy these days.
Who cares?
The point is, Hamadi the thug is a free man.
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
German national security?
Allied national security. Ken's letter pointed to a collaborative
arrangement between the US and Germany - so US National Security as
well.
Ken's letter? You mean the "letter" you fabricated in response to
Ken's letter? Do you expect anyone to take that seriously?
No Bob. I was referring to what you posted:

This:

"The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release"

in the lead up to the letter. And this:

"Mr. President,

I would like to provide you with an explanation as to why Muhammed Ali
Hammadi's recent release by Germany, and your Administration's lack of
any attempt to prevent it"

within the letter itself.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a shame
if our friend Mohammed (most of them are Mohammeds, aren't they?)
were found dead, beaten to a bloody pulp in some dismal alley in
Beirut, with a nine millimeter bullet in his head?
Since you feel the law is only for kiddies I doubt it would seem a
shame to you.
The law is for everyone.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/2196ffcdc8128730
It seems the Bush administration - being a group of sane, informed
adults
- has been secretly tapping Arab terrorists [and others] without
warrants.
= = = = = = = = = =
Did you post that?
Indeed I did, though I can't take credit for writing it. I wish I could.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Even Mr. Hamadi.
Didn't he have his day in court?
Not an American court.
So? I thought you were one big, happy "Western" family. German
court. French court. US court. What's the big deal?

Who had jurisdiction anyway?
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Didn't he spend nearly 20 years in prison?
Yes. That's about 100 years too few; or 20 years too many,
depending on how you look at it.
It was a life sentence. He was 'paroled' as a matter of National
Security.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
You're not interested in the law if it fails to provide you the revenge
you seek. If the law is for Mr. Hamadi then you must be satisfied
with what the law has decided for Mr. Hamadi. If you want more for
Mr. Hamadi then you are effectively claiming the law is not for you.
Perhaps because you are an 'adult'? :-)
Are you saying the law is always right?
Course not. More so than you are though.
Post by Bob Cooper
That seems a rather odd
position for a libertarian.
Not really. Libertarians want just enough proper laws so they can
have their stuff and to be left the fuck alone.
Post by Bob Cooper
Is exchanging convicted murderers for
hostages codified in German law?
Parole is - apparently.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Even better.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ?
Once again, you've got it backwards, Kuff. Hamadi and his
Hezbollah buddies are Murder, Inc.
"Entrepreneurial types". Murder, Inc. You can understand my
confusion about what you are trying to say I think.
You know perfectly well what I'm saying. I can, however, understand
your attempt to obfuscate, having observed many such attempts in
the past.
You are talking about an 'entrepreneurial type' murdering him.
Murder, Inc. That's so plain how can you claim obfuscation? Unless
you are trying it yourself that is.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
I prefer COD, but $500's a bargain.
That's only if he doesn't have security. You know, going about town
with bodyguards and such. It's likely the $5,000 cost would need to
be incurred.
Post by Bob Cooper
I'll take the risk. Money-back
guarantee.
Nope, sorry. No refunds.
Post by Bob Cooper
Verbal contract
Of course.
Post by Bob Cooper
and no 1099, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
I thought so. You seem to have a flair for business :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.
Superiority?
Pretend!
Post by Bob Cooper
Far be it from me to claim superiority over a brutal,
vicious thug who beat a defenseless man senseless and then shot him
in the head and threw his body on the tarmac for the "crime" of being an
American.
Not at all. Didn't I say it would be a shame?
Yeah, you did. But I don't believe you.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
As expected, the distinction between murder and justice seems to elude
you.
Justice tends to fall under the law.
In an ideal world, yes.
The one with kiddies and not adults, eh? The one where law is a
nuiscance for adults 'getting on with business (entrepreneurial
types)'?
Post by Bob Cooper
Perhaps in Kuffland. In the real world, that goal
is elusive, at best.
The "ideal world" is a direction and not a destination Bob. You turn
from that path at your own peril. Your History knows better - it's a
shame the message has been muted and, in some cases, lost altogether.
:-(
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
What you are talking about is revenge.
Nope. What I'm talking about (hypothetically) is one of those unfortunate
street crimes one encounters in certain alleys in Beirut. Round up the
usual suspects :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
And murder.
Indeed. The brutal, senseless murder of Robert Dean Stethem by
Muslim terrorists.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
...
Post by Bob Cooper
=======================================================
The Germans have always refused to extradite the thug, Hammadi
to the US. Last month, they released him after he had served 18
years of a life sentence. Coincidentally (so they say), a German
hostage in Iraq was freed a day later.
Stethem was beaten so badly his body had to be ID'ed from his
fingerprints. Hammadi is free in Lebanon today.
Anybody want to buy a Volkswagen?
Bob Cooper
2006-01-10 22:52:45 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
German national security?
Allied national security. Ken's letter pointed to a collaborative
arrangement between the US and Germany - so US National Security as
well.
Ken's letter? You mean the "letter" you fabricated in response to
Ken's letter? Do you expect anyone to take that seriously?
"The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release"
"Mr. President,
I would like to provide you with an explanation as to why Muhammed Ali
Hammadi's recent release by Germany, and your Administration's lack of
any attempt to prevent it"
within the letter itself.
And, you conclude from that that the US conspired with the Germans
to effect his release? Seems highly speculative, but I suppose it's possible.
If so, obviously I believe it was a mistake. Making deals of any kind with
terrorists is a mistake. Making a deal to release a convicted vicious
thug like Hammadi would be a particularly egregious mistake, not to
mention immoral.

<snip>
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
So? I thought you were one big, happy "Western" family. German
court. French court. US court. What's the big deal?
Who had jurisdiction anyway?
The Germans. He was arrested in Frankfurt. He was carrying explosives
in his luggage at the time. Nice guy.

The Germans refused to extradite him, presumably on the grounds the
death penalty offended their sensibilities. Think about the irony of that
for a minute. The *Germans* objecting to the death penalty. Apparently,
they had become much more fastidious about those things since 1945.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Didn't he spend nearly 20 years in prison?
Yes. That's about 100 years too few; or 20 years too many,
depending on how you look at it.
It was a life sentence. He was 'paroled' as a matter of National
Security.
Uh huh.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
You're not interested in the law if it fails to provide you the revenge
you seek. If the law is for Mr. Hamadi then you must be satisfied
with what the law has decided for Mr. Hamadi. If you want more for
Mr. Hamadi then you are effectively claiming the law is not for you.
Perhaps because you are an 'adult'? :-)
Are you saying the law is always right?
Course not. More so than you are though.
Post by Bob Cooper
That seems a rather odd
position for a libertarian.
Not really. Libertarians want just enough proper laws so they can
have their stuff and to be left the fuck alone.
Post by Bob Cooper
Is exchanging convicted murderers for hostages codified in German law?
Parole is - apparently.
Apparently.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Even better.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ?
Once again, you've got it backwards, Kuff. Hamadi and his
Hezbollah buddies are Murder, Inc.
"Entrepreneurial types". Murder, Inc. You can understand my
confusion about what you are trying to say I think.
You know perfectly well what I'm saying. I can, however, understand
your attempt to obfuscate, having observed many such attempts in
the past.
You are talking about an 'entrepreneurial type' murdering him.
Murder, Inc. That's so plain how can you claim obfuscation? Unless
you are trying it yourself that is.
Murder, Inc. was the mob. Big business. Like Hezbollah. My fantasy
envisions a private contractor. Small businessman, if you will.
Hypothetically, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
I prefer COD, but $500's a bargain.
That's only if he doesn't have security. You know, going about town
with bodyguards and such. It's likely the $5,000 cost would need to
be incurred.
Post by Bob Cooper
I'll take the risk. Money-back
guarantee.
Nope, sorry. No refunds.
Post by Bob Cooper
Verbal contract
Of course.
Post by Bob Cooper
and no 1099, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
I thought so. You seem to have a flair for business :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.
Superiority?
Pretend!
Post by Bob Cooper
Far be it from me to claim superiority over a brutal,
vicious thug who beat a defenseless man senseless and then shot him
in the head and threw his body on the tarmac for the "crime" of being an
American.
Not at all. Didn't I say it would be a shame?
Yeah, you did. But I don't believe you.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
As expected, the distinction between murder and justice seems to elude
you.
Justice tends to fall under the law.
In an ideal world, yes.
The one with kiddies and not adults, eh? The one where law is a
nuiscance for adults 'getting on with business (entrepreneurial
types)'?
No, Kuff. A world where Robbie Stethem and his family and friends can
find justice. A world where brutal murdering thugs aren't turned loose. A
world of right and wrong, good and evil, black and white. A world unlike
Kuffland, where everything seems to be painted in shades of gray. Pale
gray :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Perhaps in Kuffland. In the real world, that goal
is elusive, at best.
The "ideal world" is a direction and not a destination Bob. You turn
from that path at your own peril. Your History knows better - it's a
shame the message has been muted and, in some cases, lost altogether.
:-(
Indeed it has. Well said :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
What you are talking about is revenge.
Nope. What I'm talking about (hypothetically) is one of those unfortunate
street crimes one encounters in certain alleys in Beirut. Round up the
usual suspects :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
And murder.
Indeed. The brutal, senseless murder of Robert Dean Stethem by
Muslim terrorists.
<snip>
kuff (Isaac Adams)
2006-01-11 02:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Cooper
<snip>
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
My point was why he is a free man. National Security.
German national security?
Allied national security. Ken's letter pointed to a collaborative
arrangement between the US and Germany - so US National Security as
well.
Ken's letter? You mean the "letter" you fabricated in response to
Ken's letter? Do you expect anyone to take that seriously?
"The administration has falsely claimed (according to my sources) that
we did not know in advance about the release"
"Mr. President,
I would like to provide you with an explanation as to why Muhammed Ali
Hammadi's recent release by Germany, and your Administration's lack of
any attempt to prevent it"
within the letter itself.
And, you conclude from that that the US conspired with the Germans
to effect his release?
"conspired" is too strong. I conclude the US knew "in advance about
the release" and didn't make "any attempt to prevent it".

If the sources statements are true then it sounds like a National
Security matter. The Germans told the US what they were going to do
and why and the US concurred.
Post by Bob Cooper
Seems highly speculative, but I suppose it's possible.
Not speculative at all - it's exactly what your posting had in it.
Post by Bob Cooper
If so, obviously I believe it was a mistake. Making deals of any kind with
terrorists is a mistake. Making a deal to release a convicted vicious
thug like Hammadi would be a particularly egregious mistake, not to
mention immoral.
Given who was 'swapped' and the public stance of the US about that
person is what makes me think it was a National Security matter. And
a rather important one at that.
Post by Bob Cooper
<snip>
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
So? I thought you were one big, happy "Western" family. German
court. French court. US court. What's the big deal?
Who had jurisdiction anyway?
The Germans. He was arrested in Frankfurt. He was carrying explosives
in his luggage at the time. Nice guy.
The Germans refused to extradite him, presumably on the grounds the
death penalty offended their sensibilities.
Lots of folks squeamish about killing the helpless. The US, and
terrorists, are not.
Post by Bob Cooper
Think about the irony of that
for a minute. The *Germans* objecting to the death penalty. Apparently,
they had become much more fastidious about those things since 1945.
Apparently so.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Didn't he spend nearly 20 years in prison?
Yes. That's about 100 years too few; or 20 years too many,
depending on how you look at it.
It was a life sentence. He was 'paroled' as a matter of National
Security.
Uh huh.
Well, your welcome to an alternate explanation if you wish. If what
you posted is correct, and combined with my identification of who was
swapped for him, it certainly seems like a National Security matter to
me.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
You're not interested in the law if it fails to provide you the revenge
you seek. If the law is for Mr. Hamadi then you must be satisfied
with what the law has decided for Mr. Hamadi. If you want more for
Mr. Hamadi then you are effectively claiming the law is not for you.
Perhaps because you are an 'adult'? :-)
Are you saying the law is always right?
Course not. More so than you are though.
Post by Bob Cooper
That seems a rather odd
position for a libertarian.
Not really. Libertarians want just enough proper laws so they can
have their stuff and to be left the fuck alone.
Post by Bob Cooper
Is exchanging convicted murderers for hostages codified in German law?
Parole is - apparently.
Apparently.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Wouldn't it be a
shame if they had to ID the bastard from his fingerprints?
DNA. Forensics has improved considerably in the intervening years.
Even better.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
I have to speculate there are any number of entrepreneurial types
willing and able to make that happen for a modest fee in that part of
the world, where it would constitute a routine business transaction.
Another Murder, Inc. ?
Once again, you've got it backwards, Kuff. Hamadi and his
Hezbollah buddies are Murder, Inc.
"Entrepreneurial types". Murder, Inc. You can understand my
confusion about what you are trying to say I think.
You know perfectly well what I'm saying. I can, however, understand
your attempt to obfuscate, having observed many such attempts in
the past.
You are talking about an 'entrepreneurial type' murdering him.
Murder, Inc. That's so plain how can you claim obfuscation? Unless
you are trying it yourself that is.
Murder, Inc. was the mob. Big business. Like Hezbollah. My fantasy
envisions a private contractor. Small businessman, if you will.
Hypothetically, of course.
Oh, hypothetically of course. Wouldn't suspect you of inciting a
crime or anything. :-)

(Not that it would be illegal in Kuffland but you're probably in a
different jurisdiction.)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Yeah, heard of those. $500 if the target has
no security - $5,000 if he does. All up front for the $500 package.
1/2 up front for the $5,000 package. No refunds.
I prefer COD, but $500's a bargain.
That's only if he doesn't have security. You know, going about town
with bodyguards and such. It's likely the $5,000 cost would need to
be incurred.
Post by Bob Cooper
I'll take the risk. Money-back
guarantee.
Nope, sorry. No refunds.
Post by Bob Cooper
Verbal contract
Of course.
Post by Bob Cooper
and no 1099, of course.
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Are you a capitalist, Kuff?
More of a Libertarian actually but, yeah, you could say I was a
capitalist.
I thought so. You seem to have a flair for business :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Then again, I suspect there are a lot of Navy Seals who would be
delighted to do it for free.
Be a shame, though, if that happened.
Depends on how you feel about law, civilization and all that 'Western'
bullshit you put on when you want to pretend superiority.
Superiority?
Pretend!
Post by Bob Cooper
Far be it from me to claim superiority over a brutal,
vicious thug who beat a defenseless man senseless and then shot him
in the head and threw his body on the tarmac for the "crime" of being an
American.
Not at all. Didn't I say it would be a shame?
Yeah, you did. But I don't believe you.
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
(NB: Don't let the Seal do it for free. Buy one of the packages.
Much neater and you don't have yet another murderer living in your
midst.)
As expected, the distinction between murder and justice seems to elude
you.
Justice tends to fall under the law.
In an ideal world, yes.
The one with kiddies and not adults, eh? The one where law is a
nuiscance for adults 'getting on with business (entrepreneurial
types)'?
No, Kuff. A world where Robbie Stethem and his family and friends can
find justice.
They have it. What you seem to think they want is vengance.

(Now there is an argument available about the rightful place of
vengance in a system of justice but it would probably exceed your squid
ink tolerance.)
Post by Bob Cooper
A world where brutal murdering thugs aren't turned loose.
Sometimes they are. If the process is not corrupt one is compelled,
to the degree one supports 'Civilization', to accept the processes
results.

How would you feel about the Iraqi seeking 'justice' for a family
member murdered by a brutal thug who was given a trivial sentence and
then released?
Post by Bob Cooper
A
world of right and wrong, good and evil, black and white. A world unlike
Kuffland, where everything seems to be painted in shades of gray. Pale
gray :>)
Really? Get back to me on that hypothetical Iraqi just now stepping
off the plane in Lompoc and about black and white. :-)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Perhaps in Kuffland. In the real world, that goal
is elusive, at best.
The "ideal world" is a direction and not a destination Bob. You turn
from that path at your own peril. Your History knows better - it's a
shame the message has been muted and, in some cases, lost altogether.
:-(
Indeed it has. Well said :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
Post by Bob Cooper
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
What you are talking about is revenge.
Nope. What I'm talking about (hypothetically) is one of those unfortunate
street crimes one encounters in certain alleys in Beirut. Round up the
usual suspects :>)
Post by kuff (Isaac Adams)
And murder.
Indeed. The brutal, senseless murder of Robert Dean Stethem by
Muslim terrorists.
<snip>
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