Discussion:
Ted Dalrymple on the amazingly uncivilized UK of Tony Blair & Nu Labour
(too old to reply)
Rainer Wolfcastle
2003-10-15 13:59:16 UTC
Permalink
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)

UK Telegraph


The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.

It would be comforting to think that anti-social behaviour is the
province of a small if prominent minority, but this is not so. It is
true that, on many estates, a mere handful of families make the lives
of the other residents hell by means of their violence, intimidation
and every variety of psychopathic conduct.

But the plain fact is that a large proportion of British people do not
socialise when they get together; they anti-socialise. They cannot
enjoy themselves without making a nuisance of themselves, without
screaming, drinking to excess and creating an atmosphere of menace.
Our football crowds are notorious for the vileness of their behaviour,
British holidaymakers en masse make everyone else seem refined by
comparison and, on Saturday night, Britain is Gin Lane with machetes
and mobile phones.

The Government's proposals to deal with the problem are, as one would
expect, weak and feeble. Of course, one must extend a certain
understanding to any government trying to deal with this problem: so
many of the voters, particularly the young, are anti-social that it
would be electoral suicide to be too hard upon, or even about, them.
Yet an "action line" (one of the proposed measures) to advise local
agencies on what to do about anti-social behaviour represents a new
nadir in moral cowardice, or alternatively a new apogee of
pusillanimity. On the other hand, it will provide an employment
opportunity for otherwise surplus bureaucrats, which is the principal
purpose of the Government.

It is most unfortunate that repression is now the only means by which
anti-social behaviour can be reduced in Britain. The law is a blunt
instrument, and it would be much better if people were socialised into
behaving with reasonable consideration for others in the first place,
rather than coerced into it by an already over-mighty state. But our
culture of self-control and restraint has been so thoroughly destroyed
by the social changes since the 1950s that there is no hope of
appealing to people's better nature: they have none. (I speak in
generalities, of course, in case anyone should object that there are
still many decent people around, as there are.)

I realised how irretrievably far things had gone when I was discussing
self-restraint with a group of students a couple of years ago. The
students were intelligent and decent young people, not more than one
or two of whom had assumed the thuggish fashion of the time. I
mentioned that it was once regarded in this country as rather degraded
to eat on the street: that people were expected, and expected others,
to control themselves until they reached a more suitable place to eat.

My students regarded this refusal to eat on the street as a weird
inhibition, an utterly alien and quite unnecessary custom, bizarre and
even offensive to human rights. If one is hungry, why not eat there
and then, when one feels so inclined? I'm hungry, therefore I eat; I
want, therefore I have; I'm inclined, therefore I do: this is the
modern Cartesianism.

Of course, if you examine the litter on our streets, you will find
that the great majority of it derives from people eating on the
streets - indeed, people often seem unable to progress more than a few
yards without such refreshment. Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.

If you consider this matter - which at first sight seems trivial -
more deeply, you will soon discover that a large proportion of young
Britons never eat in the company of others, except possibly in feral
packs. Many of my patients, for example, have never, in their entire
lives, eaten round a table at home with other members of the family,
but have eaten only when and where they felt like it, on their own,
almost furtively.

In other words, they have never learnt to curb their appetite for the
sake of the convenience or conviviality of others. Such radically
asocial people easily behave in an anti-social way because they see
nothing wrong with it. The truth is that others have ceased truly to
exist for them.

Why has this happened? The reason, of course, is to be found in that
other great manifestation of radical and unbridled self-expression,
the destruction of the family. People come together, have children,
and fly apart, not according to any understanding of what is good for
their children (let alone good for society), but according to what
they want for themselves at any given moment. Whim is all.

And this has happened for two reasons: first because self-expression
is regarded ideologically as an unqualified good in itself, no matter
what is being expressed, and second because the state has made it a
financially viable or even, in some cases, an advantageous, way to
behave. The state dishonestly pretends to be agnostic with regard to
the best home arrangements for children.

So now the state finds itself in the position of having to repress on
the one hand the very behaviour that it has assiduously promoted on
the other. As Edmund Burke so presciently remarked: "Men are qualified
for freedom in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral
chains upon their own appetites. Society cannot exist unless a
controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the
less of it there is within, the more there is without. It is ordained
in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds
cannot be free."

That is precisely what we are now rediscovering. Having long been
granted the freedom to be intemperate, we now find that the people who
granted us the freedom now want to repress us because of the horrible
way in which we have used it. Our loss of self-regulation has led
directly to a need for repression. Such repression might work for a
time, and I am not totally against it in the absence of anything
better: but the real problem is how we return to self-regulation.
Alas, the evil genie of self-expression will not willingly return to
the bottle.


Theodore Dalrymple is a practising GP

He is a great writer.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-15 14:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
What a pompous prat.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
It's what built us an empire.
Unless he is under the impression it was the genteel Middle Classes sipping
their tea that were plunging bayonets into the enemies of King and Country.
And from a domestic POV England has been the hooligan of Europe for
centuries - the 'London Mob' only rarely being eclipsed by such phenomenon
as the 'Paris Mob'.

Read some fucking history.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Robin Carmody
2003-10-15 17:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).

RC
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 01:03:03 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:32:11 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.

MM
Matthew Robb
2003-10-16 12:08:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:03:03 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'

cheers

matt
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 19:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Robb
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:03:03 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!

Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself, though
...

RC
Matthew Robb
2003-10-17 07:14:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:11:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself, though
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?

cheers

matt
Steve Smith
2003-10-17 07:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Robb
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:11:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself, though
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
cheers
matt
Just wait a mo and he will give you a complete analysis of all your musical
tastes too. In a totally un-"pompous prat"ish way of course;-)

Steve
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 10:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Robb
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:11:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself, though
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
The tone of your responses to the Old Right (Wotan) and the Romantic Left
(me).

RC
Dave'n'Alias
2003-10-17 13:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:11:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself,
though
Post by Matthew Robb
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
The tone of your responses to the Old Right (Wotan) and the Romantic Left
(me).
Romantic Left ???????

Bwahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by Robin Carmody
RC
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 14:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave'n'Alias
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:11:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself,
though
Post by Matthew Robb
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
The tone of your responses to the Old Right (Wotan) and the Romantic Left
(me).
Romantic Left ???????
Bwahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Perfectly adequate description of some of my views.

RC
Matthew Robb
2003-10-17 13:29:59 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:49:03 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself, though
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
The tone of your responses to the Old Right (Wotan) and the Romantic Left
(me).
You appear to live in a world of categories

cheers

matt
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 14:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Robb
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:49:03 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
Odd for a New Right sympathiser to say that!
Not that I am as different from you as I become in dreams of myself, though
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
The tone of your responses to the Old Right (Wotan) and the Romantic Left
(me).
You appear to live in a world of categories
No, just doing my best to generalise adequately when I don't really have the
time, or the inclination, to go into greater depth.

RC
Matthew Robb
2003-10-18 10:03:55 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:46:04 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Matthew Robb
What makes you think I am 'New Right'?
The tone of your responses to the Old Right (Wotan) and the Romantic Left
(me).
You appear to live in a world of categories
No, just doing my best to generalise adequately when I don't really have the
time, or the inclination, to go into greater depth.
The generalisations are not really adequate for the purpose... unless
I don't get your purpose

cheers

matt
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 21:07:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:08:47 +0000 (UTC), Matthew Robb
Post by Matthew Robb
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
An angry driver hooted at me yesterday because I was waited for a
moment in a queue of traffic to let someone slip in in front of me.

MM
Joe Hutcheon
2003-10-17 10:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Robb
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:03:03 +0100, Mike Mitchell
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
I agree. Of course the rot set in with Mrs Thatcher.
Solon
2003-10-17 19:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Hutcheon
Post by Matthew Robb
Post by Mike Mitchell
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
I agree. Of course the rot set in with Mrs Thatcher.
Oh? Was it she who ushered in "progressive" education and the divorce
law reforms?
--
Solon
derek
2003-10-17 19:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solon
Post by Joe Hutcheon
Post by Matthew Robb
Post by Mike Mitchell
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Indeed. However pompous Ted might be, the robust individualism of the
UK has often become 'fuck you'
I agree. Of course the rot set in with Mrs Thatcher.
Oh? Was it she who ushered in "progressive" education
Now you come to mention it, probably.

I always thought that progressive education came about when the 1967/8
generation of student hippies went on to become school teachers and
lecturers in teachers training colleges. I was working in a T.T.C. in
1972 and had to deal with Mrs Thatcher's department. So that puts it
about right. AIUI she presided at the closure of more grammar schools
than any other minister of education.

What I can say for sure is that driving past those grammar schools now
(some of them standing empty for 10 or more years before being turned
into flats/offices or torn down, is that nobody, except the
developers, has benefited from closing those schools down with their
great traditions of excellence, hard work, standards, discipline,
school songs, games etc, handed down over 70-80 years, with their war
memorials, rolls of honour etc etc.
Post by Solon
and the divorce law reforms?
Can't help you there.

DG
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 17:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:32:11 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995, after
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the city
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit such
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?

RC
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 21:10:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:32:11 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and
vice
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995, after
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the city
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit such
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
No idea. We're talking about life TODAY in Britain, not what pertained
in 1995. Water under the bridge, mate! You're always implying I should
move with the times. (But I can't stand the Murdoch press...)

MM
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 21:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:32:11 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and
vice
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995, after
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the city
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit such
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
No idea.
Why don't you have an opinion on the matter? Dalrymple expressed a view on
the changes in Britain since the 1950s, something you always claim to be
expert in.

We're talking about life TODAY in Britain, not what pertained
Post by Mike Mitchell
in 1995. Water under the bridge, mate!
Not many significant changes since 1995. Do you agree with Dalrymple that
urban redevelopment of the type that prevailed in the 1960s generally made
people more likely to commit crime? I imagine that you do, but would like
confirmation of your opinion on the matter.

You're always implying I should
Post by Mike Mitchell
move with the times. (But I can't stand the Murdoch press...)
Interesting then that you so admire a contributor to it.

RC
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-16 21:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:32:11 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and
vice
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995,
after
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the
city
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit
such
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
No idea.
Why don't you have an opinion on the matter? Dalrymple expressed a view on
the changes in Britain since the 1950s, something you always claim to be
expert in.
We're talking about life TODAY in Britain, not what pertained
Post by Mike Mitchell
in 1995. Water under the bridge, mate!
Not many significant changes since 1995. Do you agree with Dalrymple that
urban redevelopment of the type that prevailed in the 1960s generally made
people more likely to commit crime? I imagine that you do, but would like
confirmation of your opinion on the matter.
That is correct in my view, and the view of many others including some
claiming to be experts.
Too many of the developments were psychic black holes.
No wonder Valium was so popular at the time.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Solon
2003-10-16 21:52:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995, after
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the city
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit such
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
Do you believe that environment has no effect on people?
--
Solon
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 22:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995, after
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the city
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit such
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
Do you believe that environment has no effect on people?
I believe it has an effect, yes. However there were mass murderers before
the 1960s urban developments were built.

RC
Mark
2003-10-17 12:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
I believe it has an effect, yes. However there were mass murderers before
the 1960s urban developments were built.
And there was a lot less crime in general before the 1960s
welfare-class concentration camps were built: that's not proof that
destroying real neighbourhoods and pushing people into hideous tower
blocks created a breeding ground for crime, but it's certainly not
proof that it didn't.

Mark
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 12:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Robin Carmody
I believe it has an effect, yes. However there were mass murderers before
the 1960s urban developments were built.
And there was a lot less crime in general before the 1960s
welfare-class concentration camps were built: that's not proof that
destroying real neighbourhoods and pushing people into hideous tower
blocks created a breeding ground for crime, but it's certainly not
proof that it didn't.
I don't disagree with that. However, Fred and Rose West did not live in a
tower block.

RC
Solon
2003-10-17 19:02:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:25:20 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995,
after
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the
city
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit
such
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
Do you believe that environment has no effect on people?
I believe it has an effect, yes. However there were mass murderers before
the 1960s urban developments were built.
Indeed there were, but do you believe the 1950s/1960s developments
were more, or less, encouraging of civilised behaviour than what they
replaced?
--
Solon
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 19:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solon
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:25:20 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:09:58 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
Dalrymple is the man who wrote in The Sunday Times in November 1995,
after
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Rosemary West had been jailed for life, that the redevelopment of the
city
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
of Gloucester in the 1960s was a factor influencing the Wests to commit
such
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
atrocious acts. Do you agree with that?
Do you believe that environment has no effect on people?
I believe it has an effect, yes. However there were mass murderers before
the 1960s urban developments were built.
Indeed there were, but do you believe the 1950s/1960s developments
were more, or less, encouraging of civilised behaviour than what they
replaced?
On balance, they were less encouraging of civilised behaviour. However I
agree with Joe Hutcheon that Thatcher did more damage.

RC
JNugent
2003-10-16 23:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
Nonsense. You don't like your arguments being proved wrong, do you? He
expressed much more eloquently what I have been stumbling and fumbling
to get across to you, but you refused to believe it then, and you
won't accept it now. Many others will, however, and that is what
counts.
On this issue, I am inclined to agree with you, MM.
Rainer Wolfcastle
2003-10-16 22:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
What a pompous prat.
Roget's Thesaurus 2003 = "pompous prat", see "Theodore Dalrymple" (and vice
versa).
RC
"clueless fucktard", see Robin Carmody or Dirk Bruere.
Binky Dawkins
2003-10-15 17:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
What a pompous prat.
Read some fucking history.
Dirk
One nil I think.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-15 18:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Binky Dawkins
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
What a pompous prat.
Read some fucking history.
Dirk
One nil I think.
To me.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
H. Wake
2003-10-15 20:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
Ever wondered why the word comes from an Irish name?
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
It's what built us an empire.
No. It was trade that built the British Empire.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Unless he is under the impression it was the genteel Middle Classes sipping
their tea that were plunging bayonets into the enemies of King and Country.
And from a domestic POV England has been the hooligan of Europe for
centuries - the 'London Mob' only rarely being eclipsed by such phenomenon
as the 'Paris Mob'.
Not since the Reform Acts.
s***@hetnet.nl
2003-10-15 20:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by H. Wake
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
Ever wondered why the word comes from an Irish name?
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
It's what built us an empire.
No. It was trade that built the British Empire.
lol. i didnt know Blue Peter were producing history books now as well.
H. Wake
2003-10-16 21:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by H. Wake
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
Ever wondered why the word comes from an Irish name?
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
It's what built us an empire.
No. It was trade that built the British Empire.
lol. i didnt know Blue Peter were producing history books now as well.
So you've never heard of the East India Trading Company. How sad.
s***@hetnet.nl
2003-10-17 08:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by H. Wake
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by H. Wake
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
Ever wondered why the word comes from an Irish name?
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
It's what built us an empire.
No. It was trade that built the British Empire.
lol. i didnt know Blue Peter were producing history books now as well.
So you've never heard of the East India Trading Company. How sad.
youve never heard how said company was practically a bunch of pirates
?

The following is from wikipedia. I can find much more unflattering
stuff on the BEIC if you want me to ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company

Initially, however, it made little impression on the Dutch control of
the Spice trade and could not establish a lasting outpost in the East
Indies in the early years. Yet it succeeded beyond measure in
establishing military dominance and a political empire for Britain in
the East, gaining strongholds in the 17th century in Surat, Bombay,
Madras (1639) and Calcutta.

In 1711, the Company established a trading post in Canton (Guangzhou),
in China.

In 1757 Clive's victory at Plassey for the company during the Seven
Years' War achieved British supremacy over the French on the Indian
peninsula allowed the company to take effective control of Bengal,
India's most populous and lucrative province.

By the middle of the 19th century, the Company's rule extended across
most of India, Burma, Singapore and Hong Kong, and a fifth of the
world's population was under its authority. The Company had at various
stages defeated China, occupied the Philippines, and conquered Java.
It had solved its cash crisis needed to buy tea, by exporting
Indian-grown opium to China, whose efforts to end the trade led to two
wars with Britain.

Deprived of its trade monopoly in 1813 and wound up as a trading
enterprise twenty years later, the Company lost its administrative
functions to the British government in 1858 following the Sepoy Mutiny
of the previous year. When the Company finally reverted to the Crown
in 1874, The Times reported, "it accomplished a work such as in the
whole history of the human race no other company ever attempted and as
such is ever likely to attempt in the years to come."
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 00:59:57 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:08:34 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Read some fucking history.
Why? Isn't the truth good enough for ya?!!

MM
billy
2003-10-16 16:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
What a pompous prat.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
It's what built us an empire.
Unless he is under the impression it was the genteel Middle Classes sipping
their tea that were plunging bayonets into the enemies of King and Country.
And from a domestic POV England has been the hooligan of Europe for
centuries - the 'London Mob' only rarely being eclipsed by such phenomenon
as the 'Paris Mob'.
Read some fucking history.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
****************
It is you who should read some f***ing history:
If your Political Party is going to operate on the basis of the attitude you
display in your posting, it will be like all the other parties - who ignores
the truth and enters into denial about its actualities.
The actuality is that in a period pre the 1939-45 war, Britain - and
particularly England - was seen as one of - if not the most - law abiding
country in the world.
Some "evidence":
---------------------
In George Orwell's "The Lion and the Unicorn" - related to pre 1939
Britain - he wrote:
"The gentleness of English civilisation is perhaps its most marked
characteristic."
This he wrote when the numbers of robbery with violence (what we would now
call "muggings") averaged an astonishing *279* per annum in the whole of
England and Wales throughout the 1920-30s decade. You could find that number
in any one week in most districts in London.
This instinct to be once "law abiding" is shown by the police comments on
the 1936 Jarrow Marchers' progress through London, which stated:
"The march through the Metropolitan District seemed well organised
and the men well disciplined. The general public were sympathetic and
generous and the demonstration kept free from political propaganda.
During the marchers' stay in London, conduct was exemplary and no
incident occurred necessitating police action."
And even further back:
During the first football cup final in 1923 - after which the
over-enthusiastic crowd of 120,000 invaded the pitch - order was restored by
*ONE* policeman on a white horse.
Here is a "view" of the English, as made by a foreign visitor at that time:
"If you were a little boy, you would know that you could trust them [the
English] more than yourself and you would be freer and held in more respect
than anywhere in the world; a policeman would puff out his cheeks to make
you laugh, an old gentleman would play ball with you and a white-haired lady
would lay down her four-hundred-page novel to look prettily at you with her
bluish-grey and still young eyes... And wherever on this planet ideals of
personal freedom and dignity apply, of tolerance, of respect for the
individual and inviolable human rights, there you will find the cultural
inheritance of England which is the home of civilised people."
(extract from: "Letters From England" - 1924 - by Karel Capek - 1890-1937)
And even further back still:
Most of the visitors to the Great Exhibition (1851) came on days when the
tickets cost a shilling. About 4,500,000 people came on these 'shilling days
'. These were working people, who came from all over Britain. The first
'shilling day' was expected to lead to a great deal of trouble. One MP,
Colonel Sibthorpe warned that there would be crime and disorder, so on the
first 'shilling day' there was a heavy police presence. But nothing
happened. In the five and a half months that the Great Exhibition was open,
only seven people were arrested and there was hardly any vandalism.
---------------------
The indication of changes in crime rate (comparing pre and post war) is
given in the study "British social Trends" - by Prof. A.H. Halsey - which
indicates offences recorded by the police hovered around 1,000 per 100,000
of population in England and Wales - year on year - from 1900 up to 1939.
It rose to about 2,000 during the war but a rapid up-turn started in 1957 to
progressively rise to 14,000 per 100,000 of population by 1997. The upward
trend still, alarmingly, continues.
------------------
All the above (the once law abiding and gentle England with now a people
getting alarmingly immoral and criminal) is what Dalrymple is illustrating
and what he is regretting.
He is 100% right in what he says - as those with any knowledge of the "real"
past will realise.
We try to hide our shameful decline by pretending we have always been
immoral and criminally disruptive - just as you have done. However, the
facts speak for themselves; and unless the facts are recognised, then there
is no possibility of a "cure".
The possible solution and cure lies in the study of what made the English a
respected and law abiding people - as described by Karel Capek and as
supported by the historical facts - and what it is we are doing socially
wrong in the present period (such as, for instance, a social system with
values that are constantly eroding individual responsibility and massive
immigration which erodes a sustaining sense of identity).
But I can see your Party is falling into the "excuse" of all the others,
which is:
"You needn't worry if we are all rotten sods, now, because we have always
been rotten sods - it's in our nature. Just adjust to it and don't
complain."
********************
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-16 18:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
What a pompous prat.
Britain (or more specifically England) has always led the world when it
comes to hooliganism.
It's what built us an empire.
Unless he is under the impression it was the genteel Middle Classes
sipping
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
their tea that were plunging bayonets into the enemies of King and
Country.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
And from a domestic POV England has been the hooligan of Europe for
centuries - the 'London Mob' only rarely being eclipsed by such phenomenon
as the 'Paris Mob'.
Read some fucking history.
****************
If your Political Party is going to operate on the basis of the attitude you
display in your posting, it will be like all the other parties - who ignores
the truth and enters into denial about its actualities.
The actuality is that in a period pre the 1939-45 war, Britain - and
particularly England - was seen as one of - if not the most - law abiding
country in the world.
A very atypical period at the end of empire, when all those genteel bowler
hatted gentlement with impeccable manners were about to piss it all away
bigtime.

England also hanged more people (criminals) than any other European nation
over a period of centuries.
England had a reputation for hooliganism for centuries.
It is only in the 20th century, probably because of the devastating wars and
rebuilding required, that crime was so atypically low.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Solon
2003-10-16 22:13:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:53:58 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by billy
The actuality is that in a period pre the 1939-45 war, Britain - and
particularly England - was seen as one of - if not the most - law abiding
country in the world.
A very atypical period at the end of empire, when all those genteel bowler
hatted gentlement with impeccable manners were about to piss it all away
bigtime.
Which particular period? Billy has posted vinaigrette from 1851
onwards.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
England also hanged more people (criminals) than any other European nation
over a period of centuries.
Well it would have, wouldn't it? Different countries had different
methods of execution. You might as well say that France guillotined
more people than any other European nation.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
England had a reputation for hooliganism for centuries.
It is only in the 20th century, probably because of the devastating wars and
rebuilding required, that crime was so atypically low.
Crime rates had been falling steadily for decades before WW1, so your
"probably" just doesn't hold water.

It is possible to hark back to times when violent crime was indeed a
bad problem, when people went in fear of the London mob, when a
journey into the Rookeries was to take your life into your hands, and
when highwaymen and footpads preyed on travelers.

That England was increasingly civilised, as political, legal and
educational reforms led to people who were self-reliant,
self-disciplined and responsible. By the 1950s, that process had been
going on for over a century, and had been rewarded by (inter alia)
very low rates of crime.

That is no longer the case.

And it is no good coming out with comments about "the London mob" in
an attempt to show that "we have always been like that", when we know
full well that we *haven't* always been like that. We were *once* like
that, but then we became more civilised - now we are becoming less
civilised, when we ought to be becoming more civilised still.

So to point out our ancestors were once known hooliganism really
misses the point. You might as well point out that even more distant
ancestors lived in trees and ate bananas. What matters is that we
ought to be going forwards - not backwards.
--
Solon
billy
2003-10-18 11:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Solon
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:53:58 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by billy
The actuality is that in a period pre the 1939-45 war, Britain - and
particularly England - was seen as one of - if not the most - law abiding
country in the world.
A very atypical period at the end of empire, when all those genteel bowler
hatted gentlement with impeccable manners were about to piss it all away
bigtime.
Which particular period? Billy has posted vinaigrette from 1851
onwards.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
England also hanged more people (criminals) than any other European nation
over a period of centuries.
Well it would have, wouldn't it? Different countries had different
methods of execution. You might as well say that France guillotined
more people than any other European nation.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
England had a reputation for hooliganism for centuries.
It is only in the 20th century, probably because of the devastating wars and
rebuilding required, that crime was so atypically low.
Crime rates had been falling steadily for decades before WW1, so your
"probably" just doesn't hold water.
It is possible to hark back to times when violent crime was indeed a
bad problem, when people went in fear of the London mob, when a
journey into the Rookeries was to take your life into your hands, and
when highwaymen and footpads preyed on travelers.
That England was increasingly civilised, as political, legal and
educational reforms led to people who were self-reliant,
self-disciplined and responsible. By the 1950s, that process had been
going on for over a century, and had been rewarded by (inter alia)
very low rates of crime.
That is no longer the case.
And it is no good coming out with comments about "the London mob" in
an attempt to show that "we have always been like that", when we know
full well that we *haven't* always been like that. We were *once* like
that, but then we became more civilised - now we are becoming less
civilised, when we ought to be becoming more civilised still.
So to point out our ancestors were once known hooliganism really
misses the point. You might as well point out that even more distant
ancestors lived in trees and ate bananas. What matters is that we
ought to be going forwards - not backwards.
--
Solon
*****************
Solon,
thanks for the balanced view.
Unfortunately, anti-Englishness is now the fashion and myths are created to
support that fashion.
regards, billy
*****************
billy
2003-10-18 11:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by billy
Post by billy
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Read some fucking history.
If your Political Party is going to operate on the basis of the attitude
you
Post by billy
display in your posting, it will be like all the other parties - who
ignores
Post by billy
the truth and enters into denial about its actualities.
The actuality is that in a period pre the 1939-45 war, Britain - and
particularly England - was seen as one of - if not the most - law abiding
country in the world.
A very atypical period at the end of empire, when all those genteel bowler
hatted gentlement with impeccable manners were about to piss it all away
bigtime.
England also hanged more people (criminals) than any other European nation
over a period of centuries.
England had a reputation for hooliganism for centuries.
It is only in the 20th century, probably because of the devastating wars and
rebuilding required, that crime was so atypically low.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
****************
Your Boer ancestry is beginning to show.
If the Consensus Party represents another anti-English group, then it is not
needed. We already have one in power, another one jostling for position and
the other one not quite sure whether to be patriotic or "fashionably"
anti-English.
The facts are that from the mid 19th century and up to the end of that
period, the crime rate in England dropped by over 50% and this "orderliness"
was continued right up to the start of the 1939 war. I have given you the
indisputable statistics - including the *astonishing* average of *279*
muggings per annum during the 1920-30s period in England and Wales.
Prior to that, the British/English were no worse than anyone else and - in
certain aspects - a darn sight better. And this certainly applied to the
colonies.
Witness the rapacious murderousness of the Spanish in the Americas and the
Portuguese in Brazil. And consider the cruel and vicious exploitation of the
Belgian Congo by the Belgians and the cruel contempt towards the African of
your ancestors. In addition, the German genocide in Namibia
This is not to mention the rampaging French armies under Napoleon who
devastated every area they moved into. At least, and by contrast, Wellington
insisted that anything the British army took from the land had to be paid
for.
Also, we need not mention the more recent murderous German forces in Eastern
Europe and Russia.
Your anti-English bias will most certainly attract votes from the Marxist
Left but not from the genuine English who have a balanced view of
themselves.
Here is another "balanced view" of the English from a person who visited
England when its character was the way it should be now:
--------------------------------
"What governs the Englishman is his inner atmosphere, the weather in his
soul. Instinctively the Englishman is no missionary, no conqueror. He
prefers the country to the town, and home to foreign parts. He is rather
glad and relieved if only natives will remain natives and strangers
strangers, and at a comfortable distance from himself. Yet outwardly he is
most hospitable and accepts almost anybody for the time being; he travels
and conquers without a settled design, because he has the instinct of
exploration. His adventures are all external; they change him so little that
he is not afraid of them. He carries his English weather in his heart
wherever he goes, and it becomes a cool spot in the desert, and a steady and
sane oracle amongst all the deliriums of mankind. Never since the heroic
days of Greece has the world had such a sweet, just, boyish master. It will
be a black day for the human race when scientific blackguards, conspirators,
churls, and fanatics manage to supplant him."
George Santayana
"Soliloquies in England" (1922)
************************
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-19 00:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by billy
Post by billy
Post by billy
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Read some fucking history.
If your Political Party is going to operate on the basis of the attitude
you
Post by billy
display in your posting, it will be like all the other parties - who
ignores
Post by billy
the truth and enters into denial about its actualities.
The actuality is that in a period pre the 1939-45 war, Britain - and
particularly England - was seen as one of - if not the most - law
abiding
Post by billy
Post by billy
country in the world.
A very atypical period at the end of empire, when all those genteel bowler
hatted gentlement with impeccable manners were about to piss it all away
bigtime.
England also hanged more people (criminals) than any other European nation
over a period of centuries.
England had a reputation for hooliganism for centuries.
It is only in the 20th century, probably because of the devastating wars
and
Post by billy
rebuilding required, that crime was so atypically low.
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
****************
Your Boer ancestry is beginning to show.
If the Consensus Party represents another anti-English group, then it is not
needed. We already have one in power, another one jostling for position and
the other one not quite sure whether to be patriotic or "fashionably"
anti-English.
The Consensus will be what its members make it.
If you want a voice within it, join.
Otherwise don't complain about policies its *members* decide upon - esp now
when it has so few and even a single person can make a big difference..
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
SXB Ltd
2003-10-15 17:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
The Government has at last recognised what has long been stark staring
obvious to everyone with his head below the clouds: that anti-social
behaviour is one of the most serious problems facing Britain. Indeed,
anti-social behaviour is almost the only field in which Britain leads
the world, and is what the British are now principally known (and
despised) for, everywhere they go. Hooliganism is to Britain what
fraud is to Nigeria.
It would be comforting to think that anti-social behaviour is the
province of a small if prominent minority, but this is not so. It is
true that, on many estates, a mere handful of families make the lives
of the other residents hell by means of their violence, intimidation
and every variety of psychopathic conduct.
But the plain fact is that a large proportion of British people do not
socialise when they get together; they anti-socialise. They cannot
enjoy themselves without making a nuisance of themselves, without
screaming, drinking to excess and creating an atmosphere of menace.
Our football crowds are notorious for the vileness of their behaviour,
British holidaymakers en masse make everyone else seem refined by
comparison and, on Saturday night, Britain is Gin Lane with machetes
and mobile phones.
The Government's proposals to deal with the problem are, as one would
expect, weak and feeble. Of course, one must extend a certain
understanding to any government trying to deal with this problem: so
many of the voters, particularly the young, are anti-social that it
would be electoral suicide to be too hard upon, or even about, them.
Yet an "action line" (one of the proposed measures) to advise local
agencies on what to do about anti-social behaviour represents a new
nadir in moral cowardice, or alternatively a new apogee of
pusillanimity. On the other hand, it will provide an employment
opportunity for otherwise surplus bureaucrats, which is the principal
purpose of the Government.
It is most unfortunate that repression is now the only means by which
anti-social behaviour can be reduced in Britain. The law is a blunt
instrument, and it would be much better if people were socialised into
behaving with reasonable consideration for others in the first place,
rather than coerced into it by an already over-mighty state. But our
culture of self-control and restraint has been so thoroughly destroyed
by the social changes since the 1950s that there is no hope of
appealing to people's better nature: they have none. (I speak in
generalities, of course, in case anyone should object that there are
still many decent people around, as there are.)
I realised how irretrievably far things had gone when I was discussing
self-restraint with a group of students a couple of years ago. The
students were intelligent and decent young people, not more than one
or two of whom had assumed the thuggish fashion of the time. I
mentioned that it was once regarded in this country as rather degraded
to eat on the street: that people were expected, and expected others,
to control themselves until they reached a more suitable place to eat.
My students regarded this refusal to eat on the street as a weird
inhibition, an utterly alien and quite unnecessary custom, bizarre and
even offensive to human rights. If one is hungry, why not eat there
and then, when one feels so inclined? I'm hungry, therefore I eat; I
want, therefore I have; I'm inclined, therefore I do: this is the
modern Cartesianism.
Of course, if you examine the litter on our streets, you will find
that the great majority of it derives from people eating on the
streets - indeed, people often seem unable to progress more than a few
yards without such refreshment. Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
If you consider this matter - which at first sight seems trivial -
more deeply, you will soon discover that a large proportion of young
Britons never eat in the company of others, except possibly in feral
packs. Many of my patients, for example, have never, in their entire
lives, eaten round a table at home with other members of the family,
but have eaten only when and where they felt like it, on their own,
almost furtively.
In other words, they have never learnt to curb their appetite for the
sake of the convenience or conviviality of others. Such radically
asocial people easily behave in an anti-social way because they see
nothing wrong with it. The truth is that others have ceased truly to
exist for them.
Why has this happened? The reason, of course, is to be found in that
other great manifestation of radical and unbridled self-expression,
the destruction of the family. People come together, have children,
and fly apart, not according to any understanding of what is good for
their children (let alone good for society), but according to what
they want for themselves at any given moment. Whim is all.
And this has happened for two reasons: first because self-expression
is regarded ideologically as an unqualified good in itself, no matter
what is being expressed, and second because the state has made it a
financially viable or even, in some cases, an advantageous, way to
behave. The state dishonestly pretends to be agnostic with regard to
the best home arrangements for children.
So now the state finds itself in the position of having to repress on
the one hand the very behaviour that it has assiduously promoted on
the other. As Edmund Burke so presciently remarked: "Men are qualified
for freedom in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral
chains upon their own appetites. Society cannot exist unless a
controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the
less of it there is within, the more there is without. It is ordained
in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds
cannot be free."
That is precisely what we are now rediscovering. Having long been
granted the freedom to be intemperate, we now find that the people who
granted us the freedom now want to repress us because of the horrible
way in which we have used it. Our loss of self-regulation has led
directly to a need for repression. Such repression might work for a
time, and I am not totally against it in the absence of anything
better: but the real problem is how we return to self-regulation.
Alas, the evil genie of self-expression will not willingly return to
the bottle.
Theodore Dalrymple is a practising GP
He is a great writer.
Indeed he is. I have yet to read an article of his that I disagree with.
--
SXB Ltd
http://samizdata.net/blog/
http://www.overlawyered.com/
http://www.scallycentral.com/
Robin Carmody
2003-10-15 17:34:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Funnily enough I read this post while looking at a Telegraph published
almost exactly forty years ago. It was a nicer, happier paper then ... but
then it could afford to be, because the world hadn't turned against its
values.

As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but what
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as anyone I
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.

RC
David Platt
2003-10-15 18:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but what
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as anyone I
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Robin Carmody
2003-10-15 18:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but what
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as anyone I
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.

RC
David Platt
2003-10-15 18:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but
what
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.
Care to expand on that theme?

I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
Robin Carmody
2003-10-15 19:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but
what
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was much
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.

RC
David Platt
2003-10-15 19:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but
what
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was much
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Robin Carmody
2003-10-15 20:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but
what
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was much
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.

RC
David Platt
2003-10-15 21:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 20:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Undoubtedly. The two are inexorably bound up with each other.

RC
David Platt
2003-10-16 21:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Undoubtedly. The two are inexorably bound up with each other.
Would you not also agree, that this seems to imply that contemporary
multi cultural society, is a less contented society than that which we
had in 1963?
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 22:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Undoubtedly. The two are inexorably bound up with each other.
Would you not also agree, that this seems to imply that contemporary
multi cultural society, is a less contented society than that which we
had in 1963?
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various reasons
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.

RC
cramer
2003-10-17 01:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection,
was
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Undoubtedly. The two are inexorably bound up with each other.
Would you not also agree, that this seems to imply that contemporary
multi cultural society, is a less contented society than that which we
had in 1963?
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various reasons
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.
<snip>
you could say the same for other free spirits eg burglars and thieves.
David Platt
2003-10-17 01:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection,
was
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Undoubtedly. The two are inexorably bound up with each other.
Would you not also agree, that this seems to imply that contemporary
multi cultural society, is a less contented society than that which we
had in 1963?
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various reasons
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.
So a minority are more happy, while the majority are less happy.

Don't you find that a rather odd state of affairs?
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 10:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection,
was
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
much
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
How far back in time do you have in mind?
Around the time of, and much (although certainly not all of the time)
before, the publication of the Telegraph I referred to in this thread -
1963.
I see, I am wondering now, based on what I have read of your views
on the multicultural society that has flowered in this same time frame,
whether you see any correlation between the dissipation of that old
outlook, and the one which has arisen.
Might the individualistic nature of contemporary society, have come
about precisely due to the disintegration of the old social mores?
Undoubtedly. The two are inexorably bound up with each other.
Would you not also agree, that this seems to imply that contemporary
multi cultural society, is a less contented society than that which we
had in 1963?
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various reasons
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.
So a minority are more happy, while the majority are less happy.
Don't you find that a rather odd state of affairs?
No, I think it's a price worth paying. Most people born with mental
conditions such as mine would agree with me.

RC
Aramis Gunton
2003-10-17 11:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
So a minority are more happy, while the majority are less happy.
Don't you find that a rather odd state of affairs?
No, I think it's a price worth paying.
So if I go around my neighbourhood indulging me every carnal desire
thereby making the lives of the majority miserable I can console myself
with the fact that personally I, the minority, am as happy as a pig in
shit.
Post by Robin Carmody
Most people born with mental conditions such as mine would agree with
me.
Most paedophiles, born 'like that', would probably agree with a
reduction in the age of consent to 9 months however in former saner
times a view was prevalent that took council from majority welfare and
sensibilities rather than those of the damaged, deviant or downright
malevolent.
--
Aramis Gunton
Steve Smith
2003-10-17 07:56:48 UTC
Permalink
snipped
Post by Robin Carmody
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various reasons
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.
RC
You are so special and precious Robin.

STeve
Robin Carmody
2003-10-17 10:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
snipped
Post by Robin Carmody
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various reasons
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.
RC
You are so special and precious Robin.
Learn something about Asperger's Syndrome. Then you'd understand why I
wrote the above ...

RC
Steve Smith
2003-10-17 12:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
snipped
Post by Robin Carmody
The mass are less contented but those like myself, who for various
reasons
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by Robin Carmody
can never conform to a "mass", are more so.
RC
You are so special and precious Robin.
Learn something about Asperger's Syndrome. Then you'd understand why I
wrote the above ...
RC
I know quite a lot about Aspergers thanks, it is in my family and quite a
few of my friends kids are so affected. Never the less you should realise
that most people regard themselves as unlike the others around them.

I am quite fascinated that with Aspergers you seem to be able to tolerate
loud Rap music? Do you actually listen to it or do you just read the lyrics.
All the Aspergers people I know hate loud noises but I believe it can work
the other way round, where loud stimuli is actively sought.

FWIW I think I may have a mild version myself, as does one of my kids, as
the condition is a scale it is difficult to say exactly where it becomes
official.

Steve
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-17 23:21:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:47 +0100, "Steve Smith"
Post by Steve Smith
FWIW I think I may have a mild version myself,
Ditto, but I never mention it.

MM
Robin Carmody
2003-10-18 00:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:47 +0100, "Steve Smith"
FWIW I think I may have a mild version (of Asperger's Syndrome) myself,
Ditto, but I never mention it.
Where do you "never mention it", Mike? On this ng or in your life
generally?

RC
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-18 00:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:47 +0100, "Steve Smith"
FWIW I think I may have a mild version (of Asperger's Syndrome) myself,
Ditto, but I never mention it.
Where do you "never mention it", Mike? On this ng or in your life
generally?
Ditto again

Dirk
Robin Carmody
2003-10-18 01:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:47 +0100, "Steve Smith"
FWIW I think I may have a mild version (of Asperger's Syndrome) myself,
Ditto, but I never mention it.
Where do you "never mention it", Mike? On this ng or in your life
generally?
Ditto again
Mike strikes me as the type to hold everything back to an insane extent.
The typical 1950s nostalgist.

RC
Robin Carmody
2003-10-18 02:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:47 +0100, "Steve Smith"
FWIW I think I may have a mild version (of Asperger's Syndrome) myself,
Ditto, but I never mention it.
Where do you "never mention it", Mike? On this ng or in your life
generally?
Ditto again
Ah - did you mean that you yourself think you may have a mild version of
Asperger's Syndrome, Dirk?

RC
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-19 00:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:32:47 +0100, "Steve Smith"
FWIW I think I may have a mild version (of Asperger's Syndrome)
myself,
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
Ditto, but I never mention it.
Where do you "never mention it", Mike? On this ng or in your life
generally?
Ditto again
Ah - did you mean that you yourself think you may have a mild version of
Asperger's Syndrome, Dirk?
Looking back on it I wouldn't call it especially mild.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-15 19:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was much
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
While I share much of your outlook I don't share any guilt over being either
aggressive nor individualistic.
When in Rome...
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Robin Carmody
2003-10-15 20:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding of an
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it myself.
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was
much
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
While I share much of your outlook I don't share any guilt over being either
aggressive nor individualistic.
When in Rome...
Well, my guilt is much more over being aggressive - I don't object to
individualism itself at all. Where I live one can get by without being
aggressive - I doubt whether you can do that in the south-east of England.

RC
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-15 21:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as
anyone I
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Just curious but, why are you embarrassed by that fact?
Because unlike most of my contemporaries I have an understanding
of
Post by Robin Carmody
an
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Post by Robin Carmody
earlier way of life, even though I know I could never live it
myself.
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by David Platt
Care to expand on that theme?
I'm still not clear why you might be so embarrassed by being
aggressively individualistic.
The earlier way of life, for which I have an ambivalent affection, was
much
Post by Robin Carmody
less aggressively individualistic than modern life tends to be.
While I share much of your outlook I don't share any guilt over being
either
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
aggressive nor individualistic.
When in Rome...
Well, my guilt is much more over being aggressive - I don't object to
individualism itself at all. Where I live one can get by without being
aggressive - I doubt whether you can do that in the south-east of England.
Depends what one is trying to accomplish.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Rainer Wolfcastle
2003-10-17 01:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Funnily enough I read this post while looking at a Telegraph published
almost exactly forty years ago. It was a nicer, happier paper then ... but
then it could afford to be, because the world hadn't turned against its
values.
As it stands, I can sympathise with some of Dalrymple's concerns, but what
can most of us do? I know I am as aggressively individualistic as anyone I
know, embarrassed though I am at the fact.
RC
Yes we all know you are one of Nu Labour's little left wing fascists.
s***@hetnet.nl
2003-10-15 20:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
rant snipped. Yes Britain is anti-social. We have thi sterrible habit
of invading countries and stealing their resources and killing their
people and badly armed conscript soldiers, We have been doing it for
hundreds of years. We had a lull in the 60s, 70s and 80s but since we
got our most imperialist leader in several generations we have been
gung-ho for war. Visiting the most extreme violence known to humanity
upon poor unsuspecting and completely innocent civilians.
What did Afghanistan have to do with 911 ? Nothing but we bombed them
anyway and restarted the herion trade which had been stamped out under
the Taliban. What was Iraq doing before we bombed them ? Nothing -
what could they do when they couldnt even put a jet in the skies. We
had complete control over Iraq and bombed it on a weekly basis frmo
1991 onwards. We basically used Iraq as target practice while we
decided on a date for grabbing their oil.
So as you can see Britain is a violent and lawless state who refuse to
listen to the wise council of their colleagues and trample on the
United Nations charter. This gives great succour to all racists who
know that killing arabs is legitimate because that is what their
government does. White Van Man proudly displays his St Georges cross
and prays for another war to liven up his meaningless life. And Blair
never dissapoints. War is his business violence his modus operandi.
And then the Telegraph wonders why the British are such louts ?
That is easy it is because their government are louts.
D a v e V H
2003-10-15 20:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
rant snipped. Yes Britain is anti-social. We have thi sterrible habit
of invading countries and stealing their resources
Is the Iraqi oil not being paid for? Or have you redefined the word
stealing?
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
and killing their
people and badly armed conscript soldiers, We have been doing it for
hundreds of years. We had a lull in the 60s, 70s and 80s but since we
got our most imperialist leader in several generations we have been
gung-ho for war. Visiting the most extreme violence known to humanity
upon poor unsuspecting and completely innocent civilians.
What did Afghanistan have to do with 911 ?
Afghanistan's Taliban were sheltering Osama Bin Laden. Osama is the head of
Al Qa'ida which was responsible for 9-11. I'd dearly like to line up your
evidence suggesting otherwise against the evidence suggesting it's true.
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Nothing but we bombed them
anyway and restarted the herion trade which had been stamped out under
the Taliban.
What was Iraq doing before we bombed them ? Nothing -
what could they do when they couldnt even put a jet in the skies.
What was Iraq doing BEFORE it was contained? Massacring Kurds and starting
wars with its neighbours. It didn't do anything like that after 1991.
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
We
had complete control over Iraq and bombed it on a weekly basis frmo
1991 onwards. We basically used Iraq as target practice while we
decided on a date for grabbing their oil.
So as you can see Britain is a violent and lawless state who refuse to
listen to the wise council of their colleagues and trample on the
United Nations charter.
That is highly debatable. If what Britain did constitutes trampling on the
charter, I'm at a loss to imagine with what words you'll describe Iraq's
behaviour for twenty-five years. Or Libya's. Or Syria's.
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
This gives great succour to all racists who
know that killing arabs is legitimate because that is what their
government does. White Van Man proudly displays his St Georges cross
and prays for another war to liven up his meaningless life. And Blair
never dissapoints. War is his business violence his modus operandi.
And then the Telegraph wonders why the British are such louts ?
That is easy it is because their government are louts.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-15 21:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by D a v e V H
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
rant snipped. Yes Britain is anti-social. We have thi sterrible habit
of invading countries and stealing their resources
Is the Iraqi oil not being paid for? Or have you redefined the word
stealing?
Well, not much Iraqi oil is being shipped because of the ongoing war.
However, the 'plan' had less to do with stealing it than pumping enough to
undermine OPEC and determine the price.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
s***@hetnet.nl
2003-10-15 23:12:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:23:22 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
Post by D a v e V H
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
rant snipped. Yes Britain is anti-social. We have thi sterrible habit
of invading countries and stealing their resources
Is the Iraqi oil not being paid for? Or have you redefined the word
stealing?
Well, not much Iraqi oil is being shipped because of the ongoing war.
However, the 'plan' had less to do with stealing it than pumping enough to
undermine OPEC and determine the price.
and the money that the US oil companies pay for the oil - which they
then sell on for a huge profit - is conveniently recycled to US
companies via the hugely extravagant re-construciotn projects many of
which are open to US companies only to repair the damage caused by US
companies who supplied the army with its weapons at a massive profit
for said companies.

nice work if u can get it.
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-16 00:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
rant snipped. Yes Britain is anti-social. We have thi sterrible habit
of invading countries and stealing their resources and killing their
people and badly armed conscript soldiers, We have been doing it for
hundreds of years. We had a lull in the 60s, 70s and 80s but since we
got our most imperialist leader in several generations we have been
gung-ho for war. Visiting the most extreme violence known to humanity
upon poor unsuspecting and completely innocent civilians.
What did Afghanistan have to do with 911 ? Nothing but we bombed them
anyway and restarted the herion trade which had been stamped out under
the Taliban. What was Iraq doing before we bombed them ? Nothing -
what could they do when they couldnt even put a jet in the skies. We
had complete control over Iraq and bombed it on a weekly basis frmo
1991 onwards. We basically used Iraq as target practice while we
decided on a date for grabbing their oil.
So as you can see Britain is a violent and lawless state who refuse to
listen to the wise council of their colleagues and trample on the
United Nations charter. This gives great succour to all racists who
know that killing arabs is legitimate because that is what their
government does. White Van Man proudly displays his St Georges cross
and prays for another war to liven up his meaningless life. And Blair
I would say that English nationalists are for the most part anti this war
and anti Blairr.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 01:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hetnet.nl
That is easy it is because their government are louts.
We are all louts. I started counting recently how many I could spot. I
gave up after I'd got to both hands full. Yesterday, on the Tube, a
man offered to give up his seat to a middle-aged white man (no, not
me). The seated person was from the ethnic community, i.e. obviously
well brought up, probably in a loving, extended family that retained
its generations of hand-me-down rules to live by. When do we see
schoolboys or -girls giving up their seat nowadays?We lost our rules
within thirty years.

MM
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 00:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
[snipped a large chunk]
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
But our
culture of self-control and restraint has been so thoroughly destroyed
by the social changes since the 1950s that there is no hope of
appealing to people's better nature: they have none.
You see, Robin? This Theodore geezer is talking my kind of language!
(I knew I was not alone.) Note that he says "since" the 1950s.

MM
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 19:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
[snipped a large chunk]
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
But our
culture of self-control and restraint has been so thoroughly destroyed
by the social changes since the 1950s that there is no hope of
appealing to people's better nature: they have none.
You see, Robin? This Theodore geezer is talking my kind of language!
(I knew I was not alone.) Note that he says "since" the 1950s.
Do you agree with him about the redevelopment of Gloucester in the 60s
influencing Fred and Rose West to become evil?

RC
SXB Ltd
2003-10-16 20:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Do you agree with him about the redevelopment of Gloucester in the 60s
influencing Fred and Rose West to become evil?
First I've heard of that story. Any more about what he actually said.
--
SXB Ltd
http://www.obvious.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 21:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by SXB Ltd
Post by Robin Carmody
Do you agree with him about the redevelopment of Gloucester in the 60s
influencing Fred and Rose West to become evil?
First I've heard of that story. Any more about what he actually said.
I have the Sunday Times where Dalrymple said that somewhere here. Will try
tracking it down to post on the ng tomorrow.

RC
SXB Ltd
2003-10-16 21:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by SXB Ltd
Post by Robin Carmody
Do you agree with him about the redevelopment of Gloucester in the 60s
influencing Fred and Rose West to become evil?
First I've heard of that story. Any more about what he actually said.
I have the Sunday Times where Dalrymple said that somewhere here. Will try
tracking it down to post on the ng tomorrow.
Thanks. :-)
--
SXB Ltd
http://www.obvious.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-16 21:16:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:13:04 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
You see, Robin? This Theodore geezer is talking my kind of language!
(I knew I was not alone.) Note that he says "since" the 1950s.
Do you agree with him about the redevelopment of Gloucester in the 60s
influencing Fred and Rose West to become evil?
No idea. We're talking 2003 et seq in this particular thread.

MM
Robin Carmody
2003-10-16 21:32:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:13:04 +0100, "Robin Carmody"
Post by Robin Carmody
Post by Mike Mitchell
You see, Robin? This Theodore geezer is talking my kind of language!
(I knew I was not alone.) Note that he says "since" the 1950s.
Do you agree with him about the redevelopment of Gloucester in the 60s
influencing Fred and Rose West to become evil?
No idea. We're talking 2003 et seq in this particular thread.
And the things which made 2003 what it is. Urban redevelopment in the 60s
was one of many thousands of factors in that.

RC
Jim Smith
2003-10-17 04:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
What utter bollocks. The streets are filthy because people drop litter
on them. Trying to stop people eating is no more an appropriate
response than trying to stop them walking on the streets in the first
place. Why not say hunger is uncivilised?
Provide more litter bins. There still aren't any on the tube because
of the IRA. Ridiculous.
Steve Smith
2003-10-17 07:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
What utter bollocks. The streets are filthy because people drop litter
on them. Trying to stop people eating is no more an appropriate
response than trying to stop them walking on the streets in the first
place. Why not say hunger is uncivilised?
Provide more litter bins. There still aren't any on the tube because
of the IRA. Ridiculous.
No, people used to not eat on the street, also only the lowest sorts smoked
on the streets. I remember how it was in the 60s and 70s.

Steve
Jim Smith
2003-10-17 14:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
What utter bollocks. The streets are filthy because people drop litter
on them. Trying to stop people eating is no more an appropriate
response than trying to stop them walking on the streets in the first
place. Why not say hunger is uncivilised?
Provide more litter bins. There still aren't any on the tube because
of the IRA. Ridiculous.
No, people used to not eat on the street, also only the lowest sorts smoked
on the streets. I remember how it was in the 60s and 70s.
I'm not arguing with that, but if you want to clean up the streets,
asking people not to eat is not the way to do it.
Steve Smith
2003-10-17 16:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Smith
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
What utter bollocks. The streets are filthy because people drop litter
on them. Trying to stop people eating is no more an appropriate
response than trying to stop them walking on the streets in the first
place. Why not say hunger is uncivilised?
Provide more litter bins. There still aren't any on the tube because
of the IRA. Ridiculous.
No, people used to not eat on the street, also only the lowest sorts smoked
on the streets. I remember how it was in the 60s and 70s.
I'm not arguing with that, but if you want to clean up the streets,
asking people not to eat is not the way to do it.
I doubt there is much that could be done with them now.

Steve
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-17 23:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Smith
I'm not arguing with that, but if you want to clean up the streets,
asking people not to eat is not the way to do it.
Zero tolerance policing could be the solution here...

The police don't eat on the beat, do they!

MM
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-17 23:29:35 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:59:44 +0100, "Steve Smith"
Post by Steve Smith
No, people used to not eat on the street, also only the lowest sorts smoked
on the streets. I remember how it was in the 60s and 70s.
That's nothing! I remember how it was in the 50s!

MM
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-17 23:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
What utter bollocks. The streets are filthy because people drop litter
on them. Trying to stop people eating is no more an appropriate
response than trying to stop them walking on the streets in the first
place. Why not say hunger is uncivilised?
Provide more litter bins. There still aren't any on the tube because
of the IRA. Ridiculous.
I do agree with you about the bins. How convenient for the councils,
railway stations, the tube, that they suddenly had no bins to empty!
How much money they could save! At the height of The Troubles I could
understand why, but it is now being used as an excuse. Result is,
people become exasperated and just chuck their litter on the ground.

But back to the eating on streets, and while I don't believe you can
(or should) prevent people from doing this, it is rather uncivilised
behaviour. It doesn't look all that pretty to see people cramming a
burger into their gobs, or their face obscured by a bucket of Coke as
they bump into you. Why don't we want to take just ten minutes or so
to sit down somewhere and eat at a slightly less frenzied pace? There
used to be cheap cafes everywhere. Where are they now? Now you have to
buy a fancy coffee and pay the earth.

MM
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-17 23:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
When self-expression is king, of course people behave badly
ByTheodore Dalrymple
(Filed: 15/10/2003)
UK Telegraph
Our streets are filthy - the worst in
Post by Rainer Wolfcastle
Europe, if not most of the world - because people eat on them.
What utter bollocks. The streets are filthy because people drop litter
on them. Trying to stop people eating is no more an appropriate
response than trying to stop them walking on the streets in the first
place. Why not say hunger is uncivilised?
Provide more litter bins. There still aren't any on the tube because
of the IRA. Ridiculous.
I do agree with you about the bins. How convenient for the councils,
railway stations, the tube, that they suddenly had no bins to empty!
How much money they could save! At the height of The Troubles I could
understand why, but it is now being used as an excuse. Result is,
people become exasperated and just chuck their litter on the ground.
I assume you don't know that such things as Kevlar lined bins are available
that can contain the explosion of up to a pound of HE?
Not cheap though.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-19 11:07:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:22:08 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
I assume you don't know that such things as Kevlar lined bins are available
that can contain the explosion of up to a pound of HE?
Not cheap though.
No, Dirk, I really did not know that!

MM
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
2003-10-19 12:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:22:08 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
I assume you don't know that such things as Kevlar lined bins are available
that can contain the explosion of up to a pound of HE?
Not cheap though.
No, Dirk, I really did not know that!
IIRC shown years ago on Tomorrows World ie doomed.
Anyway, the 'security' argument is false, although one based on cost might
succeed. Which means that the best way to get them is just to drop litter
everywhere so it is more costly to clean the place than install kevlar bins.
--
Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-19 15:10:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:54:25 +0100, "Dirk Bruere at Neopax"
Post by Dirk Bruere at Neopax
IIRC shown years ago on Tomorrows World ie doomed.
Anyway, the 'security' argument is false, although one based on cost might
succeed. Which means that the best way to get them is just to drop litter
everywhere so it is more costly to clean the place than install kevlar bins.
Surely the presence or absence of bins would hardly make a difference
to a determined terrorist? "Oh, Martha, there's no bins there, so I
can't be a terrorist today, sorry!" I think it was the reaction of the
authorities similar to the tanks at Heathrow earlier this year: Make
the public think we're doing something.

MM

SXB Ltd
2003-10-18 10:19:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
But back to the eating on streets, and while I don't believe you can
(or should) prevent people from doing this, it is rather uncivilised
behaviour. It doesn't look all that pretty to see people cramming a
burger into their gobs, or their face obscured by a bucket of Coke as
they bump into you. Why don't we want to take just ten minutes or so
to sit down somewhere and eat at a slightly less frenzied pace? There
used to be cheap cafes everywhere. Where are they now? Now you have to
buy a fancy coffee and pay the earth.
I prefer to sit down in a cafe to eat and drink when I'm out and about shopping for
goodies (great deal in Woolies yesterday btw, 3 dvds for £20. :-)), but if I am really in
a hurry I get something and find a bench to sit down to eat.
--
SXB Ltd
http://nicedoggie.net/
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
derek
2003-10-18 17:37:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:19:11 +0000 (UTC), SXB Ltd
Post by SXB Ltd
Post by Mike Mitchell
But back to the eating on streets, and while I don't believe you can
(or should) prevent people from doing this, it is rather uncivilised
behaviour. It doesn't look all that pretty to see people cramming a
burger into their gobs, or their face obscured by a bucket of Coke as
they bump into you. Why don't we want to take just ten minutes or so
to sit down somewhere and eat at a slightly less frenzied pace? There
used to be cheap cafes everywhere. Where are they now? Now you have to
buy a fancy coffee and pay the earth.
The sales manager of "Nero" italian coffee bars was on radio yesterday
saying his customer's average "spend" is £3.00, but by installing
plumptious Italian leather settees in the cafes this goes up to nearer
£4.00. (I suspect he didn't mean that he immediately puts the price
of a coffee up from £3.00 to £4.00 !)
Post by SXB Ltd
I prefer to sit down in a cafe to eat and drink when I'm out and about shopping for
goodies (great deal in Woolies yesterday btw, 3 dvds for £20. :-)), but if I am really in
a hurry I get something and find a bench to sit down to eat.
One day in school assembly Ca. 1962 the headmaster gave us all a
dressing down because he'd seen a pupil in school uniform eating an
apple in the street. "What must people think when they see a pupil
eating an apple in the street?"

Immediately the phrase "He must be rich" flashed into my mind.

DG
cramer
2003-10-19 00:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by derek
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:19:11 +0000 (UTC), SXB Ltd
Post by Mike Mitchell
But back to the eating on streets, and while I don't believe you can
(or should) prevent people from doing this, it is rather uncivilised
behaviour. It doesn't look all that pretty to see people cramming a
burger into their gobs, or their face obscured by a bucket of Coke as
they bump into you. Why don't we want to take just ten minutes or so
to sit down somewhere and eat at a slightly less frenzied pace? There
used to be cheap cafes everywhere. Where are they now? Now you have to
buy a fancy coffee and pay the earth.
The sales manager of "Nero" italian coffee bars was on radio yesterday
saying his customer's average "spend" is £3.00, but by installing
plumptious Italian leather settees in the cafes this goes up to nearer
£4.00. (I suspect he didn't mean that he immediately puts the price
of a coffee up from £3.00 to £4.00 !)
<snip>
Of course non stop eating is part of the great obesity plague
affecting one and all. Maybe they should bring back smoking - it is
unusual to smoke and eat at the same time. Choosing between lung
cancer and diabetes might be an interesting choice.
Mike Mitchell
2003-10-19 11:08:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:19:11 +0000 (UTC), SXB Ltd
Post by SXB Ltd
I prefer to sit down in a cafe to eat and drink when I'm out and about shopping for
goodies (great deal in Woolies yesterday btw, 3 dvds for £20. :-)), but if I am really in
a hurry I get something and find a bench to sit down to eat.
Much more civilised!

MM
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