The sound of a lute

[Tashi]

I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like
a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed
he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come
across to most guitarists?
MT

[wollybird]

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like
a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed
he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come
across to most guitarists?
MT

I thought it was just me. I went to see Paul O'Dette when we were both
kids. I thought he was entertaining, dressed in the height of
renaissance fashion, but tired of it after 20 minutes or so. I think it
had to do with the relative lack of tonal variety.

I saw a local performer a couple of weeks ago. Banjo is a good
description

[Tommy Grand]

Post by wollybird
Paul O'Dette

Back in February Paul and I pissed in adjacent urinals at the First
United Methodist Church in Evanston, IL. I spit before I started, just
to show him. Later he told me that he's gonna be recording some Bach
pieces soon, but only the ones he thinks really work on the lute.
1006a is one of them. Watch for his upcoming recordings if you think
I'm full of shit. I asked him what he thought of Jakob Lindberg's
recordings of the complete "lute works" of Bach. Uhh, actually I'm not
going to post what he said about that.

TG

[Tashi]

Post by Tommy Grand

Post by wollybird
Paul O'Dette

Back in February Paul and I pissed in adjacent urinals at the First
United Methodist Church in Evanston, IL. I spit before I started, just
to show him. Later he told me that he's gonna be recording some Bach
pieces soon, but only the ones he thinks really work on the lute.
1006a is one of them. Watch for his upcoming recordings if you think
I'm full of shit. I asked him what he thought of Jakob Lindberg's
recordings of the complete "lute works" of Bach. Uhh, actually I'm not
going to post what he said about that.
TG

I did a masterclass with Paul Odette, I brought both a 6 course, and
13 course. I knew nothing on the 6 course and had quite a number of
pieces memorized on my baroque lute..... I asked Paul which one I
should play, he replied it was up to me, so I played the 6 course as I
wanted to get the thumb under transmission from the master himself. I
now wish I heard him play baroque lute.
Paul's idea of what Bach works on the baroque lute and mine were
quite different, after I lectured him on why the E major lute suite
didn't work on the lute, I asked him what Bach he was playing and to my
horror he said the E major suite.
MT

[John Williams]

<snip>

Post by wollybird
I thought it was just me. I went to see Paul O'Dette when we were both
kids. I thought he was entertaining, dressed in the height of
renaissance fashion, but tired of it after 20 minutes or so. I think it
had to do with the relative lack of tonal variety.

Yes. I went to harpsichord recital and found that the lack of variety
sooooooo boring. I much prefer the 48 on a piano.

Mind you, I've also been to loads of guitar recitals which have left me
impressed by the technique but devoid of musicality or any real depth of
content.

I much prefer a string quartet concert.

[Steven Bornfeld]

Post by John Williams
<snip>

Post by wollybird
I thought it was just me. I went to see Paul O'Dette when we were both
kids. I thought he was entertaining, dressed in the height of
renaissance fashion, but tired of it after 20 minutes or so. I think it
had to do with the relative lack of tonal variety.

Yes. I went to harpsichord recital and found that the lack of variety
sooooooo boring. I much prefer the 48 on a piano.

Toy piano?
My impulse is to agree with you. The limited tonal pallette of the
harpsichord is fatiguing after a while to me. But I've decided that
that is probably my problem, and not the instrument's. I suspect that
the first-rate harpsichordist compensates by using other dynamics under
their control (not even sure what these are--it sometimes sounds like
the attack is under some control--there are pedals on a harpsichord,
no?), and that with sufficient listening I would be able to appreciate
the subtle ways the dynamics can be changed.
I don't know however if I'll ever listen to enough harpsichord music to
fully appreciate this.

Steve

Post by John Williams
Mind you, I've also been to loads of guitar recitals which have left me
impressed by the technique but devoid of musicality or any real depth of
content.
I much prefer a string quartet concert.

[Tashi]

Post by Steven Bornfeld

Post by John Williams
<snip>

Post by wollybird
I thought it was just me. I went to see Paul O'Dette when we were both
kids. I thought he was entertaining, dressed in the height of
renaissance fashion, but tired of it after 20 minutes or so. I think it
had to do with the relative lack of tonal variety.

Yes. I went to harpsichord recital and found that the lack of variety
sooooooo boring. I much prefer the 48 on a piano.

Toy piano?
My impulse is to agree with you. The limited tonal pallette of the
harpsichord is fatiguing after a while to me. But I've decided that
that is probably my problem, and not the instrument's. I suspect that
the first-rate harpsichordist compensates by using other dynamics under
their control (not even sure what these are--it sometimes sounds like
the attack is under some control--there are pedals on a harpsichord,
no?), and that with sufficient listening I would be able to appreciate
the subtle ways the dynamics can be changed.
I don't know however if I'll ever listen to enough harpsichord music to
fully appreciate this.
Steve

Post by John Williams
Mind you, I've also been to loads of guitar recitals which have left me
impressed by the technique but devoid of musicality or any real depth of
content.
I much prefer a string quartet concert.

Every time I'm in Borders I'm tempted to buy a Clavichord recording
of Bach, as I've never herad one before, how do they compare to a
harpsichord? The price is around $18.00 although I'm a very rich man I
always pass.... maybe next time.
MT

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Tashi

Post by Steven Bornfeld

Post by John Williams
<snip>

Post by wollybird
I thought it was just me. I went to see Paul O'Dette when we were both
kids. I thought he was entertaining, dressed in the height of
renaissance fashion, but tired of it after 20 minutes or so. I think it
had to do with the relative lack of tonal variety.

Yes. I went to harpsichord recital and found that the lack of variety
sooooooo boring. I much prefer the 48 on a piano.

Toy piano?
My impulse is to agree with you. The limited tonal pallette of the
harpsichord is fatiguing after a while to me. But I've decided that
that is probably my problem, and not the instrument's. I suspect that
the first-rate harpsichordist compensates by using other dynamics under
their control (not even sure what these are--it sometimes sounds like
the attack is under some control--there are pedals on a harpsichord,
no?), and that with sufficient listening I would be able to appreciate
the subtle ways the dynamics can be changed.
I don't know however if I'll ever listen to enough harpsichord music to
fully appreciate this.
Steve

Post by John Williams
Mind you, I've also been to loads of guitar recitals which have left me
impressed by the technique but devoid of musicality or any real depth of
content.
I much prefer a string quartet concert.

Every time I'm in Borders I'm tempted to buy a Clavichord recording
of Bach, as I've never herad one before, how do they compare to a
harpsichord? The price is around $18.00 although I'm a very rich man I
always pass.... maybe next time.
MT

Like a harpsichord...but less so.
I thing we're so conditioned to hear keyboard works on the modern grand
as the instrument of default that it's an acquired taste. I certainly
understand the objections to "historically informed performance" but I
think that the chance to hear this music on the instruments it was
intended for at the very least has the potential to open our ears to the
different sonorities available. Even listening to as few of these
recordings (and even fewer live performances) the strangeness of these
instruments has decreased greatly for me; I'm just about ready to dig
the music. ;-)

Steve

[Che']

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like
a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed
he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come
across to most guitarists?
MT<

One guitarist: Silvery sevelt flutings.


Che'

[David Schramm]

How does the lute sound come across to most guitarists?

I love it. I was listening to Hopkinson Smith play the Bach Lute suites and
Robert Barto play Weiss this morning while in the shop. I like to play the
Baroque guitar and the Vihuela. I'd rather play lute music on the lute and
not on the guitar.

[Claus Rogge]

Post by David Schramm

How does the lute sound come across to most guitarists?

I love it.

Same here.

[Tashi]

Post by David Schramm

How does the lute sound come across to most guitarists?

I love it. I was listening to Hopkinson Smith play the Bach Lute suites and
Robert Barto play Weiss this morning while in the shop. I like to play the
Baroque guitar and the Vihuela. I'd rather play lute music on the lute and
not on the guitar.

Hoppy Smith has a real problem with rhythm which is the single
most important thing in baroque music since they are all dance pieces,
Barto has impeccable drive , phrasing, and rhythm. Hoppy is for me the
worst sound on the lute.
Playing baroque guitar and vihuela is nothing special for a
guitarist, however double courses sound really bad with nails. I
wonder if you have ever picked up a 13 course lute and played Bach or
Weiss, if you have, I don't think you would make a statement that you
would prefer playing lute music on the lute rather than guitar, it
takes a few months to play some of the simplest pieces at first.
MT

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

[David Schramm]

Mr.Thames,
I meant exactly what I said. As you are aware I studied early music with Ron
Purcell, a student of Emilio Pujol and Andres Segovia. I have played the
13-course Baroque lute as well as many other early instruments which was my
main interest during my undergraduate studies. I am quite aware of the
technique.

I do enjoy Barto's playing. I love the music of Weiss.

I like listening to a wide variety of musicians. I respect their talents
even if some of them are not my favorite. I keep an open mind, unless the
person is a colon cavity ;-)
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

Post by Tashi

Post by David Schramm

How does the lute sound come across to most guitarists?

I love it. I was listening to Hopkinson Smith play the Bach Lute suites and
Robert Barto play Weiss this morning while in the shop. I like to play the
Baroque guitar and the Vihuela. I'd rather play lute music on the lute and
not on the guitar.

Hoppy Smith has a real problem with rhythm which is the single
most important thing in baroque music since they are all dance pieces,
Barto has impeccable drive , phrasing, and rhythm. Hoppy is for me the
worst sound on the lute.
Playing baroque guitar and vihuela is nothing special for a
guitarist, however double courses sound really bad with nails. I
wonder if you have ever picked up a 13 course lute and played Bach or
Weiss, if you have, I don't think you would make a statement that you
would prefer playing lute music on the lute rather than guitar, it
takes a few months to play some of the simplest pieces at first.
MT

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

[Tashi]

Post by David Schramm
Mr.Thames,
I meant exactly what I said. As you are aware I studied early music with Ron
Purcell, a student of Emilio Pujol and Andres Segovia. I have played the
13-course Baroque lute as well as many other early instruments which was my
main interest during my undergraduate studies. I am quite aware of the
technique.

Ron Purcell has a name that "sounds" like early music, but he's not
a guy that comes to mind if I were going to pursue this period. Both
Segovia, and Pujol were guitarists, Segovia new nothing of early music,
and Pujol, was quite a scholar for compiling Vihuela pieces.
There is a difference in simply picking up a baroque lute and
trying it out, or spending years perfecting the technique.

Post by David Schramm
I do enjoy Barto's playing. I love the music of Weiss.
I like listening to a wide variety of musicians. I respect their talents
even if some of them are not my favorite. I keep an open mind, unless the
person is a colon cavity ;-)

I only like listening to the best!
MT

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

Post by Tashi

Post by David Schramm

How does the lute sound come across to most guitarists?

I love it. I was listening to Hopkinson Smith play the Bach Lute suites and
Robert Barto play Weiss this morning while in the shop. I like to play the
Baroque guitar and the Vihuela. I'd rather play lute music on the lute and
not on the guitar.

Hoppy Smith has a real problem with rhythm which is the single
most important thing in baroque music since they are all dance pieces,
Barto has impeccable drive , phrasing, and rhythm. Hoppy is for me the
worst sound on the lute.
Playing baroque guitar and vihuela is nothing special for a
guitarist, however double courses sound really bad with nails. I
wonder if you have ever picked up a 13 course lute and played Bach or
Weiss, if you have, I don't think you would make a statement that you
would prefer playing lute music on the lute rather than guitar, it
takes a few months to play some of the simplest pieces at first.
MT

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

[David Schramm]

Post by Tashi
Ron Purcell has a name that "sounds" like early music, but he's not
a guy that comes to mind if I were going to pursue this period.

Obviously you know nothing about Dr.Purcell or you wouldn't make an ignorant
statement like that.

Post by Tashi
Both
Segovia, and Pujol were guitarists, Segovia new nothing of early music,
and Pujol, was quite a scholar for compiling Vihuela pieces.

Those who are ignorant about Segovia and Pujol make those kind of
statements. Did you ever study extensively and form a friendship with Pujol?
How about Segovia?

Post by Tashi
There is a difference in simply picking up a baroque lute and
trying it out, or spending years perfecting the technique.

Obviously! I'm not talking about just "picking it up."

[Tashi]

Post by David Schramm

Post by Tashi
Ron Purcell has a name that "sounds" like early music, but he's not
a guy that comes to mind if I were going to pursue this period.

Obviously you know nothing about Dr.Purcell or you wouldn't make an ignorant
statement like that.

Post by Tashi
Both
Segovia, and Pujol were guitarists, Segovia new nothing of early music,
and Pujol, was quite a scholar for compiling Vihuela pieces.

Those who are ignorant about Segovia and Pujol make those kind of
statements. Did you ever study extensively and form a friendship with Pujol?
How about Segovia?

I don't need to.... there are somethings one can know from afar.

Post by David Schramm

Post by Tashi
There is a difference in simply picking up a baroque lute and
trying it out, or spending years perfecting the technique.

Obviously! I'm not talking about just "picking it up."

Ok why don't you post an MP3 of your baroque lute playing, anything,
something simple, OK?

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

[RT]

Post by David Schramm
Mr.Thames,
I meant exactly what I said. As you are aware I studied early music with
Ron Purcell, a student of Emilio Pujol and Andres Segovia. I have played
the 13-course Baroque lute as well as many other early instruments which
was my main interest during my undergraduate studies. I am quite aware of
the technique.
I do enjoy Barto's playing. I love the music of Weiss.
I like listening to a wide variety of musicians. I respect their talents
even if some of them are not my favorite. I keep an open mind, unless the
person is a colon cavity ;-)

That particular one is a polyp.
RT

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

Post by Tashi

Post by David Schramm

How does the lute sound come across to most guitarists?

I love it. I was listening to Hopkinson Smith play the Bach Lute suites and
Robert Barto play Weiss this morning while in the shop. I like to play the
Baroque guitar and the Vihuela. I'd rather play lute music on the lute and
not on the guitar.

Hoppy Smith has a real problem with rhythm which is the single
most important thing in baroque music since they are all dance pieces,
Barto has impeccable drive , phrasing, and rhythm. Hoppy is for me the
worst sound on the lute.
Playing baroque guitar and vihuela is nothing special for a
guitarist, however double courses sound really bad with nails. I
wonder if you have ever picked up a 13 course lute and played Bach or
Weiss, if you have, I don't think you would make a statement that you
would prefer playing lute music on the lute rather than guitar, it
takes a few months to play some of the simplest pieces at first.
MT

Post by David Schramm
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com

[John Philip Dimick]

Ever listened to Walter Gerwig?

When I first played the cello suites on guitar, I thought it would be a
good idea to listen to a good cellist play them. So I listened to Janos
Starker -- and thereupon gave up on playing the cello suites. The
guitar simply couldn't compare to the cello. Not enough sustain, not
enough power, not enough dynamic range, not enough "guts."

A few years later I happened to hear Gerwig play some of the cello
music on the lute. It was beautiful. So I asked myself: "How can that
be? If the guitar is too weak to play the suites, how can they be
beautiful on the lute?"

The answer came quickly: the muisc on the lute was beautiful because
Gerwig wasn't trying to live up to the cello. Rather, he was happy to
express what was beautiful about the lute.

That was quite a turning point for me. I returned to the cello suites
with the idea of using them as a vehicle to express what I find
beautiful about the guitar.

[Arthur Ness]

It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by John Philip Dimick
Ever listened to Walter Gerwig?
When I first played the cello suites on guitar, I thought it would be a
good idea to listen to a good cellist play them. So I listened to Janos
Starker -- and thereupon gave up on playing the cello suites. The
guitar simply couldn't compare to the cello. Not enough sustain, not
enough power, not enough dynamic range, not enough "guts."
A few years later I happened to hear Gerwig play some of the cello
music on the lute. It was beautiful. So I asked myself: "How can that
be? If the guitar is too weak to play the suites, how can they be
beautiful on the lute?"
The answer came quickly: the muisc on the lute was beautiful because
Gerwig wasn't trying to live up to the cello. Rather, he was happy to
express what was beautiful about the lute.
That was quite a turning point for me. I returned to the cello suites
with the idea of using them as a vehicle to express what I find
beautiful about the guitar.

[Tashi]

Post by Arthur Ness
It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

I find that really hard to believe. I'm assuming she played Bach on
a 10 course lute?
MT

[Arthur Ness]

I don't care whether you believes it or not. (By the way, I was
genuinely sorry when I heard that you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome.)

Check out her autobiographical "Saga of a Twentieth-Century Lute Pioneer."
Her father was Ernest Bloch, and she was a personal friend of Piatigorski.
Of course, she played it on a baroque lute. But had to adopt the fingerings
(and tuning?) to an injured left hand with a non-functioning finger. Which
makes it all the more extraordinary.

And I am always reminded of the bravery of some musicians. Like Rivka
Mandelkern, a member of the first violin section (second stand) of the
Buffalo Philharmonic, who injured her left hand. Rather than give up playing
the violin, , she re-learned to play the violin LEFT-handed!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Tashi

Post by Arthur Ness
It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

I find that really hard to believe. I'm assuming she played Bach on
a 10 course lute?
MT

[RT]

I think she had the same Dutch type lute as Gusta Goldschmidt's.
RT
ps
I nearly got "adopted" by SBloch a few years before her passing.
She was a riot.
As a teenager she was famous for having rejected on the same day sexual
advanses from both Diego and Frieda.

Post by Arthur Ness
I don't care whether you believes it or not. (By the way, I was
genuinely sorry when I heard that you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome.)
Check out her autobiographical "Saga of a Twentieth-Century Lute Pioneer."
Her father was Ernest Bloch, and she was a personal friend of Piatigorski.
Of course, she played it on a baroque lute. But had to adopt the fingerings
(and tuning?) to an injured left hand with a non-functioning finger. Which
makes it all the more extraordinary.
And I am always reminded of the bravery of some musicians. Like Rivka
Mandelkern, a member of the first violin section (second stand) of the
Buffalo Philharmonic, who injured her left hand. Rather than give up playing
the violin, , she re-learned to play the violin LEFT-handed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Tashi

Post by Arthur Ness
It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

I find that really hard to believe. I'm assuming she played Bach on
a 10 course lute?
MT

[Arthur Ness]

I regret that I never met Suzanne. I knew Gusta, of course. I think they
both studied with Landowska. I know Gusta did. She wanted me to contact
Senator Kennedy regarding some belongings of Landowska's that the Nazis had
stolen.

I know everyone who knew either of them worshipped the ground they walked
on. Yes, they both probably played the same kind of lute. I think I even
know who built Suzanne's. You probably do, too.<g>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by RT
I think she had the same Dutch type lute as Gusta Goldschmidt's.
RT
ps
I nearly got "adopted" by SBloch a few years before her passing.
She was a riot.
As a teenager she was famous for having rejected on the same day sexual
advanses from both Diego and Frieda.

Post by Arthur Ness
I don't care whether you believes it or not. (By the way, I was
genuinely sorry when I heard that you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome.)
Check out her autobiographical "Saga of a Twentieth-Century Lute Pioneer."
Her father was Ernest Bloch, and she was a personal friend of
Piatigorski.
Of course, she played it on a baroque lute. But had to adopt the fingerings
(and tuning?) to an injured left hand with a non-functioning finger. Which
makes it all the more extraordinary.
And I am always reminded of the bravery of some musicians. Like Rivka
Mandelkern, a member of the first violin section (second stand) of the
Buffalo Philharmonic, who injured her left hand. Rather than give up playing
the violin, , she re-learned to play the violin LEFT-handed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Tashi

Post by Arthur Ness
It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

I find that really hard to believe. I'm assuming she played Bach on
a 10 course lute?
MT

[RT]

Post by Arthur Ness
I regret that I never met Suzanne. I knew Gusta, of course. I think they
both studied with Landowska. I know Gusta did. She wanted me to contact
Senator Kennedy regarding some belongings of Landowska's that the Nazis had
stolen.
I know everyone who knew either of them worshipped the ground they walked
on. Yes, they both probably played the same kind of lute. I think I even
know who built Suzanne's. You probably do, too.<g>

Yep.
RT

Post by Arthur Ness

Post by RT
I think she had the same Dutch type lute as Gusta Goldschmidt's.
RT
ps
I nearly got "adopted" by SBloch a few years before her passing.
She was a riot.
As a teenager she was famous for having rejected on the same day sexual
advanses from both Diego and Frieda.

Post by Arthur Ness
I don't care whether you believes it or not. (By the way, I was
genuinely sorry when I heard that you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome.)
Check out her autobiographical "Saga of a Twentieth-Century Lute Pioneer."
Her father was Ernest Bloch, and she was a personal friend of Piatigorski.
Of course, she played it on a baroque lute. But had to adopt the fingerings
(and tuning?) to an injured left hand with a non-functioning finger. Which
makes it all the more extraordinary.
And I am always reminded of the bravery of some musicians. Like Rivka
Mandelkern, a member of the first violin section (second stand) of the
Buffalo Philharmonic, who injured her left hand. Rather than give up playing
the violin, , she re-learned to play the violin LEFT-handed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Tashi

Post by Arthur Ness
It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one
played
by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

I find that really hard to believe. I'm assuming she played Bach on
a 10 course lute?
MT

[Tashi]

Post by Arthur Ness
I don't care whether you believes it or not. (By the way, I was
genuinely sorry when I heard that you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome.)

Arthur once again you have it wrong.... best not to listen to RT. The
blind leading the blind.
MT

Post by Arthur Ness
Check out her autobiographical "Saga of a Twentieth-Century Lute Pioneer."
Her father was Ernest Bloch, and she was a personal friend of Piatigorski.
Of course, she played it on a baroque lute. But had to adopt the fingerings
(and tuning?) to an injured left hand with a non-functioning finger. Which
makes it all the more extraordinary.

They actually had a playable baroque lute in her day.... that must
have been a treat to hear right up your alley.
MT

Post by Arthur Ness
And I am always reminded of the bravery of some musicians. Like Rivka
Mandelkern, a member of the first violin section (second stand) of the
Buffalo Philharmonic, who injured her left hand. Rather than give up playing
the violin, , she re-learned to play the violin LEFT-handed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Tashi

Post by Arthur Ness
It works in both directions. Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

I find that really hard to believe. I'm assuming she played Bach on
a 10 course lute?
MT

[David Raleigh Arnold]

I don't care whether you believes it or not. (By the way, I was genuinely
sorry when I heard that you suffer from Tourette's Syndrome.)
Check out her autobiographical "Saga of a Twentieth-Century Lute Pioneer."
Her father was Ernest Bloch, and she was a personal friend of Piatigorski.
Of course, she played it on a baroque lute. But had to adopt the
fingerings (and tuning?) to an injured left hand with a non-functioning
finger. Which makes it all the more extraordinary.
And I am always reminded of the bravery of some musicians. Like Rivka
Mandelkern,

Googled that person briefly. Taught at Jiulliard, recently died. Is
there an autobiography somewhere? I think it would be or would have been
a help to many people. Hopefully she didn't burn her journal. daveA

[John Philip Dimick]

Post by Arthur Ness
Gregor Piatigorski said that he did not fully
understand how to play the Bach 'cello suites until he heard one played by
Suzanne Bloch on the lute.

That's a nice pearl, Arthur. Thank you!

[Tashi]

Post by John Philip Dimick
Ever listened to Walter Gerwig?
When I first played the cello suites on guitar, I thought it would be a
good idea to listen to a good cellist play them. So I listened to Janos
Starker -- and thereupon gave up on playing the cello suites. The
guitar simply couldn't compare to the cello. Not enough sustain, not
enough power, not enough dynamic range, not enough "guts."
A few years later I happened to hear Gerwig play some of the cello
music on the lute. It was beautiful. So I asked myself: "How can that
be? If the guitar is too weak to play the suites, how can they be
beautiful on the lute?"
The answer came quickly: the muisc on the lute was beautiful because
Gerwig wasn't trying to live up to the cello. Rather, he was happy to
express what was beautiful about the lute.
That was quite a turning point for me. I returned to the cello suites
with the idea of using them as a vehicle to express what I find
beautiful about the guitar.

A number of years ago I heard Anner Bylsma play all six cello suites
in SF in a 2 night series, I was shocked at how rhythmic they came
across. I realized there is really no way to bring the rhythm out on
the lute or guitar in the same manner as the cello. My personal feeling
is to use the example of the 5th cello suite Bach's alleged arrangement
for all the cello suites, and not try to imitate the cello.
BTW my son plays cello and he plays the 1st cello suite, when he hears
me play it on guitar he starts immediately correcting me.

Walter Gerwig huh? I haven't heard him for ages. I wonder how I
would like him today.
MT

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar, and
thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds and put
on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now find it
lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed he
couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come across
to most guitarists?

I have no idea what the vote would be, and care less. Why do you feel
that you have to make a choice? If you can play a guitar, you can play a
banjo or a lute. The difference in these instruments is that they have
different personalities. That means that they have long and short suits.
The guitar has a sweet sound, the classical more than the flameco type,
and much of that quality comes from the shape of the body. The treble of
the renaissance lute has a banjo like quality and very little sustain
which gives it a certain brilliance in treble scale passages, while the
bass notes ring on forever. It works better for music written for it in
nearly all, but not quite all, cases. Use a guitar for an arpeggiated
chord type accompaniment for a sweet song and it sounds better than any
other instrument. Guitar is still bottom heavy, but much better balanced
than the lute. The baroque lutes I have heard retain renaissance lute
qualities, but they have a bit more balance because the treble has a
weaker character. The banjo with American tuning (bg#eae) is good with
flamenco tiami tremolo for sentimental tunes. tami tremolo stinks on any
kind of banjo.

Don't let any of them hear you compare them, and don't make moral
judgments. Consider each to be like another wife with whom you have to
get along. ;-) daveA

[wollybird]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar, and
thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds and put
on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now find it
lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed he
couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come across
to most guitarists?

I have no idea what the vote would be, and care less. Why do you feel
that you have to make a choice? If you can play a guitar, you can play a
banjo or a lute. The difference in these instruments is that they have
different personalities. That means that they have long and short suits.
The guitar has a sweet sound, the classical more than the flameco type,
and much of that quality comes from the shape of the body. The treble of
the renaissance lute has a banjo like quality and very little sustain
which gives it a certain brilliance in treble scale passages, while the
bass notes ring on forever. It works better for music written for it in
nearly all, but not quite all, cases. Use a guitar for an arpeggiated
chord type accompaniment for a sweet song and it sounds better than any
other instrument. Guitar is still bottom heavy, but much better balanced
than the lute. The baroque lutes I have heard retain renaissance lute
qualities, but they have a bit more balance because the treble has a
weaker character. The banjo with American tuning (bg#eae) is good with
flamenco tiami tremolo for sentimental tunes. tami tremolo stinks on any
kind of banjo.
Don't let any of them hear you compare them, and don't make moral
judgments. Consider each to be like another wife with whom you have to
get along. ;-) daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html

Hey I thought this was a really good post until you got to the moral
judgements part.
Any way, why do you suppose the lute is a dead insturment?

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by wollybird

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much
like a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally
confessed he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute
sound come across to most guitarists?

I have no idea what the vote would be, and care less. Why do you feel
that you have to make a choice? If you can play a guitar, you can play
a banjo or a lute. The difference in these instruments is that they
have different personalities. That means that they have long and short
suits. The guitar has a sweet sound, the classical more than the flameco
type, and much of that quality comes from the shape of the body. The
treble of the renaissance lute has a banjo like quality and very little
sustain which gives it a certain brilliance in treble scale passages,
while the bass notes ring on forever. It works better for music written
for it in nearly all, but not quite all, cases. Use a guitar for an
arpeggiated chord type accompaniment for a sweet song and it sounds
better than any other instrument. Guitar is still bottom heavy, but
much better balanced than the lute. The baroque lutes I have heard
retain renaissance lute qualities, but they have a bit more balance
because the treble has a weaker character. The banjo with American
tuning (bg#eae) is good with flamenco tiami tremolo for sentimental
tunes. tami tremolo stinks on any kind of banjo.
Don't let any of them hear you compare them, and don't make moral
judgments. Consider each to be like another wife with whom you have to
get along. ;-) daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html

Hey I thought this was a really good post until you got to the moral
judgements part.
Any way, why do you suppose the lute is a dead insturment?

Because its future is in the past. daveA

[Matanya Ophee]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by wollybird
Hey I thought this was a really good post until you got to the moral
judgements part.
Any way, why do you suppose the lute is a dead insturment?

Because its future is in the past.

That is true for all instruments. The difference is that here, as
opposed to all other instruments, there is no present, and the past
all on its own is not enough to sustain the interest of the general
public. Constant rehashing of the past, however well done by some, is
quaint and limited to a small group of groupies.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: [phone]
http://www.editionsorphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Matanya Ophee

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by wollybird
Hey I thought this was a really good post until you got to the moral
judgements part.
Any way, why do you suppose the lute is a dead insturment?

Because its future is in the past.

That is true for all instruments.

!

Post by Matanya Ophee
The difference is that here, as opposed
to all other instruments, there is no present, and the past all on its own
is not enough to sustain the interest of the general public. Constant
rehashing of the past, however well done by some, is quaint and limited to
a small group of groupies.

That's what I meant, and I think I said it better. ;-) daveA

[Tashi]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar, and
thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds and put
on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now find it
lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed he
couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come across
to most guitarists?

I have no idea what the vote would be, and care less. Why do you feel
that you have to make a choice? If you can play a guitar, you can play a
banjo or a lute. The difference in these instruments is that they have
different personalities. That means that they have long and short suits.
The guitar has a sweet sound, the classical more than the flameco type,
and much of that quality comes from the shape of the body. The treble of
the renaissance lute has a banjo like quality and very little sustain
which gives it a certain brilliance in treble scale passages, while the
bass notes ring on forever. It works better for music written for it in
nearly all, but not quite all, cases. Use a guitar for an arpeggiated
chord type accompaniment for a sweet song and it sounds better than any
other instrument. Guitar is still bottom heavy, but much better balanced
than the lute. The baroque lutes I have heard retain renaissance lute
qualities, but they have a bit more balance because the treble has a
weaker character. The banjo with American tuning (bg#eae) is good with
flamenco tiami tremolo for sentimental tunes. tami tremolo stinks on any
kind of banjo.
Don't let any of them hear you compare them, and don't make moral
judgments. Consider each to be like another wife with whom you have to
get along. ;-) daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html

The point I was trying to make is how hard it was for me to adjust
my ear to the twangy sound of the lute after hearing the crystalline
purity of the guitar, I talking primarily of baroque music.
MT

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Tashi

Post by David Raleigh Arnold

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much
like a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally
confessed he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute
sound come across to most guitarists?

I have no idea what the vote would be, and care less. Why do you feel
that you have to make a choice? If you can play a guitar, you can play
a banjo or a lute. The difference in these instruments is that they
have different personalities. That means that they have long and short
suits. The guitar has a sweet sound, the classical more than the flameco
type, and much of that quality comes from the shape of the body. The
treble of the renaissance lute has a banjo like quality and very little
sustain which gives it a certain brilliance in treble scale passages,
while the bass notes ring on forever. It works better for music written
for it in nearly all, but not quite all, cases. Use a guitar for an
arpeggiated chord type accompaniment for a sweet song and it sounds
better than any other instrument. Guitar is still bottom heavy, but
much better balanced than the lute. The baroque lutes I have heard
retain renaissance lute qualities, but they have a bit more balance
because the treble has a weaker character. The banjo with American
tuning (bg#eae) is good with flamenco tiami tremolo for sentimental
tunes. tami tremolo stinks on any kind of banjo.
Don't let any of them hear you compare them, and don't make moral
judgments. Consider each to be like another wife with whom you have to
get along. ;-) daveA
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html

The point I was trying to make is how hard it was for me to adjust
my ear to the twangy sound of the lute after hearing the crystalline
purity of the guitar, I talking primarily of baroque music.

Having compared Walter Gerwig's rendition of the fugue from the Bach
'Prelude, Fugue, and Allegor' with Segovia's, I have to agree that in that
case anyway the Baroque lute didn't have much going for it. What I
don't understand is why you feel obliged to adjust to it. The musical
instrument preference police are not going to put their booted feet to
your door. Do yourself a favor and arrange something (else) for guitar.
daveA

[Tashi]

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Having compared Walter Gerwig's rendition of the fugue from the Bach
'Prelude, Fugue, and Allegor' with Segovia's, I have to agree that in that
case anyway the Baroque lute didn't have much going for it.

Well to be correct daveA, Walter Gerwig played a 10 course lute tuned
like a guitar. It is night and day, compared to 13 string d-minor
tuning, of a real baroque lute. Simalar to what Andrew thinks he's
accomplishing... in that respect Andrew is living in the 1950's, as did
Gerwig.
MT

What I

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
don't understand is why you feel obliged to adjust to it. The musical
instrument preference police are not going to put their booted feet to
your door. Do yourself a favor and arrange something (else) for guitar.
daveA

I'm not obligated to adjust to anything, just found it a bit foreign.
What should I arrange Clair de Lune?
MT

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
--
"Dynamic Guitar Technique": http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
Repertoire and/or licks are ammunition. Tech is a gun.
To email go to: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Post by Tashi

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Having compared Walter Gerwig's rendition of the fugue from the Bach
'Prelude, Fugue, and Allegor' with Segovia's, I have to agree that in
that case anyway the Baroque lute didn't have much going for it.

Well to be correct daveA, Walter Gerwig played a 10 course lute tuned
like a guitar.

No sh*? I had no idea. The problem was not the tone of the instrument,
which was just dull, but the fact that he didn't bother to damp the low
strings, so the bass end became very muddy and grumbly. Segovia sounded
much better.

It is
night and day, compared to 13 string d-minor tuning,

Post by Tashi
of a real baroque lute. Simalar to what Andrew thinks he's
accomplishing... in that respect Andrew is living in the 1950's, as did
Gerwig.

I thought Gerwig was older than that.

I suppose it would have been easier to play with proper tuning, but that
wouldn't fix his bass problem.

Post by Tashi
What I

Post by David Raleigh Arnold
don't understand is why you feel obliged to adjust to it. The musical
instrument preference police are not going to put their booted feet to
your door. Do yourself a favor and arrange something (else) for
guitar. daveA

I'm not obligated to adjust to anything, just found it a bit foreign.
What should I arrange Clair de Lune?

There are many for two guitars. One is too many for one guitar. You mean
for Baroque Lute?

Jesus. I just don't want to think about it. daveA

[virtual]

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like
a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed
he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come
across to most guitarists?
MT

This is like a pianist stating that he hates the sound of a harpsichord
then playing Scarlatti with all kind of pedal works.

Apples are different than oranges, there is room for both.

Bye

[Tom Sacold]

<snip>

Post by virtual
This is like a pianist stating that he hates the sound of a harpsichord
then playing Scarlatti with all kind of pedal works.

And what is wrong with playing Scarlatti on a piano? I'd prefer it anyday.

I'd much rather listen to Bach's keyboard works played on a piano.

[Tashi]

Post by John Williams
<snip>

Post by virtual
This is like a pianist stating that he hates the sound of a harpsichord
then playing Scarlatti with all kind of pedal works.

And what is wrong with playing Scarlatti on a piano? I'd prefer it anyday.
I'd much rather listen to Bach's keyboard works played on a piano.

I second that emotion, I believe that the modern ear is more
familiar with the fundamental qualities of a piano, than the tinty
nasal sound of the harpsichord. This was the essence of my question.
The natural progression of the harpsichord evolved into the modern
piano. The lute however seems to be frozen in time without
progressing. The violin and cello are good examples of evolution.
Early violins were refitted with longer necks, different bows, chin
rests etc. The cello originally was held between the legs and had no
end pin.
If you dare alter anything on a lute, early music buffs have a fit.
I can think of a few improvements to the lute along the lines of a
violin, but forget about it.
MT

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Tashi

Post by John Williams
<snip>

Post by virtual
This is like a pianist stating that he hates the sound of a harpsichord
then playing Scarlatti with all kind of pedal works.

And what is wrong with playing Scarlatti on a piano? I'd prefer it anyday.
I'd much rather listen to Bach's keyboard works played on a piano.

I second that emotion, I believe that the modern ear is more
familiar with the fundamental qualities of a piano, than the tinty
nasal sound of the harpsichord. This was the essence of my question.
The natural progression of the harpsichord evolved into the modern
piano. The lute however seems to be frozen in time without
progressing. The violin and cello are good examples of evolution.
Early violins were refitted with longer necks, different bows, chin
rests etc. The cello originally was held between the legs and had no
end pin.
If you dare alter anything on a lute, early music buffs have a fit.
I can think of a few improvements to the lute along the lines of a
violin, but forget about it.
MT

Many early keyboard works were written with non equal
temperment in the composer's mind.

They are somewhat out of tune on a piano tuned the modern way. Do you
really think Byrd and Gibbons played by Gould (which I like by the way)
is better than when it's played on a harpsichord with the correct
tuning? I think it loses something when played with equal temperment.
Sounds kind of vanilla. I know this is not exactly the topic of the
thread.

That having been said, I would not want to hear the Emperor Concerto on
harpsichord!

[Tashi]

Post by j***@aol.com
Many early keyboard works were written with non equal
temperment in the composer's mind.

They used a limited number of keys..... but didn't Bach put an end
to this problem?
MT

[Arthur Ness]

No. Next question?
------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Tashi

Post by j***@aol.com
Many early keyboard works were written with non equal
temperment in the composer's mind.

They used a limited number of keys..... but didn't Bach put an end
to this problem?
MT

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Tashi
I put on a lute CD the other day for the first time in a while. I was
struck at how much I had grown accustomed to the sound of the guitar,
and thought the lute sounded like crap, I took it off after 20 seconds
and put on Goran Sollscher. I used to be addicted to the lute, but now
find it lacks clarity, sounds twangy, and unclean..... pretty much like
a banjo.
I spoke with a guitar friend today, whom I thought liked the lute.
Turns out he was just trying to make me feel good and finally confessed
he couldn't stand the sound of a lute. How does the lute sound come
across to most guitarists?
MT

I have seen too few lute performances live. I think recording the lute
may be extra difficult. The first recording I've heard of the lute was
of Eugen Dombois on baroque lute. I was absolutely mesmerized.
I think well-played, well-recorded lute is wonderful in pure sound terms.

Steve