[Test-Announce] Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 Available Now!

[Andre Robatino]

Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.

Installation:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

Desktop:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test

Ideally, all Alpha priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop
[3] should pass in order to meet the Alpha Release Criteria [4]. Help is
available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6].

[1] http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-quality-tasks.html
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Installation_validation_testing
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Desktop_validation_testing
[4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_15_Alpha_Release_Criteria
[5] irc://irc.freenode.net/fedora-qa
[6] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

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[Dennis Gilmore]

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test
Ideally, all Alpha priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop
[3] should pass in order to meet the Alpha Release Criteria [4]. Help is
available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6].
[1]
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-quality-tasks.html
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Installation_validation_testing
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Desktop_validation_testing
[4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_15_Alpha_Release_Criteria
[5] irc://irc.freenode.net/fedora-qa
[6] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

Please note that due to some broken deps there is no KDE live images. when
the deps are resolved we will create and push them

Dennis

[John Watzke]

Quick question: When installing from the i386 DVD, I noticed that the
installed skipped the first part of anaconda where the blue/red screen comes
up and offers to check the install media. The installer just skipped to the
graphical install. Is this a bug or something new? I've got a problem TC2
and mutter constantly crashing on login so I'm check the media manually on
my F14 box but the on-install media check was nice.

-- John Watzke
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[Adam Williamson]

Post by John Watzke
Quick question: When installing from the i386 DVD, I noticed that
the installed skipped the first part of anaconda where the blue/red
screen comes up and offers to check the install media. The installer
just skipped to the graphical install. Is this a bug or something
new?

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=676551

["Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"]

Post by John Watzke
Quick question: When installing from the i386 DVD, I noticed that
the installed skipped the first part of anaconda where the blue/red
screen comes up and offers to check the install media. The installer
just skipped to the graphical install. Is this a bug or something
new? I've got a problem TC2 and mutter constantly crashing on login
so I'm check the media manually on my F14 box but the on-install media
check was nice.

Do you have a ATI graphics card by any chance?

I'm wondering if we are seeing a trend happening here with ATI graphics
cards...

Btw Install abrt-cli package and switch to terminal and file a bug.
( abrt-cli -l to list crashes and abrt-cli -r @$number to report it )


JBG

[Adam Williamson]

Post by "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"

Post by John Watzke
Quick question: When installing from the i386 DVD, I noticed that
the installed skipped the first part of anaconda where the blue/red
screen comes up and offers to check the install media. The installer
just skipped to the graphical install. Is this a bug or something
new? I've got a problem TC2 and mutter constantly crashing on login
so I'm check the media manually on my F14 box but the on-install media
check was nice.

Do you have a ATI graphics card by any chance?
I'm wondering if we are seeing a trend happening here with ATI graphics
cards...

Not really. There are cards from all three major vendors which are
broken, and cards which work. It's not really unexpected, we just need
to make sure bugs are filed for all the broken ones.

["Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"]

Post by Adam Williamson
Not really. There are cards from all three major vendors which are
broken, and cards which work. It's not really unexpected, we just need
to make sure bugs are filed for all the broken ones.

If you are aware of several cards that are broken from three major
vendors than perhaps *hint* *hint* you should setup a wiki page which
contains a list of all known broken cards with corresponding bug reports
so..

A) reporters can be point out to that wiki page to check if they have
any of the card on that list .
B) keep track of process fixing bugs corresponding to those cards
C) reporters could add their cards and bug report to that list
D) <insert something more here >

Perhaps we might also want to create a tracker bug for each of those
major vendors...

=)

JBG

[Adam Williamson]

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;

Post by Adam Williamson
Not really. There are cards from all three major vendors which are
broken, and cards which work. It's not really unexpected, we just need
to make sure bugs are filed for all the broken ones.

If you are aware of several cards that are broken from three major
vendors than perhaps *hint* *hint* you should setup a wiki page which
contains a list of all known broken cards with corresponding bug reports
so..

No. I don't want to do that. It would be an ugly, manual (and therefore
broken) way to do it. What I'd want to do is just set up a tracker bug
for cases of GNOME Shell being borked on cards where we'd expect it to
work, and probably another for cases of fallback failing on cards where
we don't expect GNOME Shell to work.

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;
Perhaps we might also want to create a tracker bug for each of those
major vendors...

Yes, but I don't think it's really necessary to split by vendor.

[&quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;]

Post by Adam Williamson
probably another for cases of fallback failing on cards where
we don't expect GNOME Shell to work.

I'm pretty sure this one needs to be wikified and stuffed into release
notes and what not.

Do you have this list handy somewhere?

If so you can mail it to me and I can mockup a wikipage for it..

JBG

[Adam Williamson]

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;

Post by Adam Williamson
probably another for cases of fallback failing on cards where
we don't expect GNOME Shell to work.

I'm pretty sure this one needs to be wikified and stuffed into release
notes and what not.
Do you have this list handy somewhere?
If so you can mail it to me and I can mockup a wikipage for it..

GNOME's fallback mechanism is too specific a thing to put in the
criteria. The criterion that covers it would be:

"In most cases, the installed system must boot to a functional graphical
environment without user intervention (see Blocker_Bug_FAQ) "

Obviously, when GNOME's fallback mechanism fails, that criterion is not
satisfied. If we have enough cases of that being broken, then we trigger
the 'in most cases' clause, and say the criterion is generally not met
by the release.

[Adam Williamson]

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;

Post by Adam Williamson
probably another for cases of fallback failing on cards where
we don't expect GNOME Shell to work.

I'm pretty sure this one needs to be wikified and stuffed into release
notes and what not.

It'd just go into commonbugs.

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;
Do you have this list handy somewhere?

I'm working on it now.

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;
If so you can mail it to me and I can mockup a wikipage for it..

No need, thanks.

[John Watzke]

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;
Do you have a ATI graphics card by any chance?
I'm wondering if we are seeing a trend happening here with ATI graphics
cards...
Btw Install abrt-cli package and switch to terminal and file a bug.

Thanks for the tip on abtr-cli. I figured there was some sort of cli to
report this but I didn't have a chance to look it up last night as I was
getting pretty sleepy. Yes, this is an ATI card and it worked just fine in
both the gnome3 test day and TC1. I'll unleash the bugs tonight when I get
home.

-- John Watzke
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[Adam Williamson]

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;
Do you have a ATI graphics card by any chance?
I'm wondering if we are seeing a trend happening here with ATI graphics
cards...
Btw Install abrt-cli package and switch to terminal and file a bug.
Thanks for the tip on abtr-cli. I figured there was some sort of
cli to report this but I didn't have a chance to look it up last night
as I was getting pretty sleepy. Yes, this is an ATI card and it
worked just fine in both the gnome3 test day and TC1. I'll unleash
the bugs tonight when I get home.

Have you reported your issues yet? Thanks.

[James Laska]

Post by John Watzke
Quick question: When installing from the i386 DVD, I noticed that
the installed skipped the first part of anaconda where the blue/red
screen comes up and offers to check the install media. The installer
just skipped to the graphical install.

Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd

The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img. There is some discussion (and
I believe a bug report) on whether or not to prompt for mediacheck. The
only prompt for external resources will be the yum repository screen.
Here you can supply additional package repositories (local + remote).

Thanks,
James
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[Felix Miata]

Post by James Laska
Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd
The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img.

And goodbye to my to my customary installation method of loading installation
kernel and initrd from my many little 200M /boot partitions that don't have
room for being made larger. Good thing the two files needn't be located the
same place, but it makes keeping track of where they are more complex. I
guess I can use home's root or give home's root an install dir, and put even
kernel there too. Or, maybe on my user/local partition. Or, on a FAT or NTFS
partition?!?!?

[Orion Poplawski]

Post by Felix Miata

Post by James Laska
Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd
The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img.

And goodbye to my to my customary installation method of loading installation
kernel and initrd from my many little 200M /boot partitions that don't have
room for being made larger. Good thing the two files needn't be located the
same place, but it makes keeping track of where they are more complex. I
guess I can use home's root or give home's root an install dir, and put even
kernel there too. Or, maybe on my user/local partition. Or, on a FAT or NTFS
partition?!?!?

Hm, yeah, this is going to break koan as well, isn't it for systems with small
/boot filesystems.

[Chris Adams]

Post by Orion Poplawski

Post by Felix Miata

Post by James Laska
Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd
The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img.

And goodbye to my to my customary installation method of loading installation
kernel and initrd from my many little 200M /boot partitions that don't have
room for being made larger. Good thing the two files needn't be located the
same place, but it makes keeping track of where they are more complex. I
guess I can use home's root or give home's root an install dir, and put even
kernel there too. Or, maybe on my user/local partition. Or, on a FAT or NTFS
partition?!?!?

Hm, yeah, this is going to break koan as well, isn't it for systems with small
/boot filesystems.

Hmm, also what does this do to PXE booting. IIRC there is a (relatively
low) limit on the size of the initrd loaded by pxelinux.

[Chris Lumens]

Post by Chris Adams
Hmm, also what does this do to PXE booting. IIRC there is a (relatively
low) limit on the size of the initrd loaded by pxelinux.

It's worked fine for me in all systems tested.

- Chris

[Orion Poplawski]

Post by Chris Lumens

Post by Chris Adams
Hmm, also what does this do to PXE booting. IIRC there is a (relatively
low) limit on the size of the initrd loaded by pxelinux.

It's worked fine for me in all systems tested.
- Chris

Me too. Though if you don't have enough memory I got a traceback that was too
big to fit on the screen so was hard to debug.

[M A Young]

Post by Chris Adams
Hmm, also what does this do to PXE booting. IIRC there is a (relatively
low) limit on the size of the initrd loaded by pxelinux.

Most tftp servers can cope with bigger sizes now, but not necessarily in
consistent ways. pxelinux talking to linux tftp should be fine, but
expect problems if you use a Solaris tftp server.

Michael Young

[James Laska]

Post by Orion Poplawski

Post by Felix Miata

Post by James Laska
Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd
The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img.

And goodbye to my to my customary installation method of loading installation
kernel and initrd from my many little 200M /boot partitions that don't have
room for being made larger. Good thing the two files needn't be located the
same place, but it makes keeping track of where they are more complex. I
guess I can use home's root or give home's root an install dir, and put even
kernel there too. Or, maybe on my user/local partition. Or, on a FAT or NTFS
partition?!?!?

Hm, yeah, this is going to break koan as well, isn't it for systems with small
/boot filesystems.

I could be wrong, but I don't think koan was initially designed with a
focus on small /boot scenarios. Given it just downloads the vmlinuz
+initrd.img, it certainly lends well to that scenario. However, any
tool that's downloading vmlinuz+initrd.img to prep a system for install
will be impacted by any file system layout for '/' or '/boot'.

I suspect we'll have several additional tools that need adjustment to
handle any /boot (or /) size restrictions.

Thanks,
James

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[Mike Chambers]

Post by James Laska
Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd
The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img. There is some discussion (and
I believe a bug report) on whether or not to prompt for mediacheck. The
only prompt for external resources will be the yum repository screen.
Here you can supply additional package repositories (local + remote).

Soo, does there still need to be a install/install.img file for
installing from iso via network, or a initrd.img or anything at all or
just the iso is now needed and nothing else?

[James Laska]

Post by Mike Chambers

Post by James Laska
Good-bye install.img, hello initrd.img!
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/UnifiedInitrd
The installer no longer needs to locate where install.img is (network,
DVD, HD). The content previously included in the stage#2 install.img
file, is now included in the initrd.img. There is some discussion (and
I believe a bug report) on whether or not to prompt for mediacheck. The
only prompt for external resources will be the yum repository screen.
Here you can supply additional package repositories (local + remote).

Soo, does there still need to be a install/install.img file for
installing from iso via network, or a initrd.img or anything at all or
just the iso is now needed and nothing else?

There shouldn't be a need for this, since it no longer exists. Just
boot and go (or that's the theory). The only question should be where
do you want to install packages from. That step will happen during the
graphical reposetup portion of the installer. Of course, this is why we
test, so we can shake out any issues that slipped through the cracks.

Hope that helps answer your question!
James
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[Michał Piotrowski]

Hi,

Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. ?Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test
Ideally, all Alpha priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop
[3] should pass in order to meet the Alpha Release Criteria [4]. Help is
available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6].

Two issues here. On firstboot, when I tried to type my name I've got
an exception. I think,
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"
option in Gnome menu.

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Michał Piotrowski
Hi,

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test
Ideally, all Alpha priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop
[3] should pass in order to meet the Alpha Release Criteria [4]. Help is
available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6].

Two issues here. On firstboot, when I tried to type my name I've got
an exception. I think,
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

Post by Michał Piotrowski
option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

[Clyde E. Kunkel]

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,

Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

It was discussed during the Test Day. I don't have a web reference for
this exact issue, but the position of the design team is that they think
the only common use case for rebooting is to boot into a different
operating system in a multi-boot configuration, and they want to handle
that as a special case somehow (a direct 'reboot to Windows' option has
been suggested). They don't believe there are any sufficiently common
use cases for rebooting other than that one to justify the added
complexity of providing it as an option. (Desktop team, please correct
me if I'm representing this wrong).

[Kjartan Maraas]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

It was discussed during the Test Day. I don't have a web reference for
this exact issue, but the position of the design team is that they think
the only common use case for rebooting is to boot into a different
operating system in a multi-boot configuration, and they want to handle
that as a special case somehow (a direct 'reboot to Windows' option has
been suggested). They don't believe there are any sufficiently common
use cases for rebooting other than that one to justify the added
complexity of providing it as an option. (Desktop team, please correct
me if I'm representing this wrong).

We still have to reboot to use a newly installed kernel. Isn't that a
valid enough use case for this? Aren't there other kinds of updates that
mandate a reboot as well?

gnome-packagekit has several strings referring to restart being needed
after updating system packages...

Cheers
Kjartan

[&quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;]

Post by Kjartan Maraas
We still have to reboot to use a newly installed kernel. Isn't that a
valid enough use case for this? Aren't there other kinds of updates that
mandate a reboot as well?
gnome-packagekit has several strings referring to restart being needed
after updating system packages...

Well I dont think the UI Designers are going to remove the ability to
reboot from update application itself but then again you never know..

JBG.

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Kjartan Maraas
We still have to reboot to use a newly installed kernel. Isn't that a
valid enough use case for this? Aren't there other kinds of updates that
mandate a reboot as well?

Updates that require a reboot are supposed to be handled by
packagekit...

Post by Kjartan Maraas
gnome-packagekit has several strings referring to restart being needed
after updating system packages...

...indeed, so if you do it via the update manager, you don't need a
desktop-provided option to do so.

seems I was a bit out of date, though, as Bastien replied on the desktop
list: reboot may come back as a de-emphasized option in the shutdown
menu somewhere.

[Clyde E. Kunkel]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

It was discussed during the Test Day. I don't have a web reference for
this exact issue, but the position of the design team is that they think
the only common use case for rebooting is to boot into a different
operating system in a multi-boot configuration, and they want to handle
that as a special case somehow (a direct 'reboot to Windows' option has
been suggested). They don't believe there are any sufficiently common
use cases for rebooting other than that one to justify the added
complexity of providing it as an option. (Desktop team, please correct
me if I'm representing this wrong).

Well, I reboot after every kernel update, every time there are numerous
updates from the repos, when debugging and testing changes to gdm,
dracut, systemd, networking, and on-and-on.

I am somehow now reminded of the early days of software design (I go
back to second gen mainframes) when we sat in a room and designed
software the way we thought it should be and then cursed the users who
complained it wasn't the way they wanted it. Heaven forbid that we even
considered an upfront requirements definition phase that included the
user community. Of course, we blamed users for the additional costs
involved in "correcting" errors late in the projects and after they were
implemented.

I am optimistic, however, since the Fedora project seems to always,
somehow, make the right, even unpopular, decisions concerning features.
I.e., deferring systemd to F15 late in the F14 cycle.

I suppose gnome is too far down the path now to consider deferring it to
F16? Is it even possible?

[James Laska]

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

It was discussed during the Test Day. I don't have a web reference for
this exact issue, but the position of the design team is that they think
the only common use case for rebooting is to boot into a different
operating system in a multi-boot configuration, and they want to handle
that as a special case somehow (a direct 'reboot to Windows' option has
been suggested). They don't believe there are any sufficiently common
use cases for rebooting other than that one to justify the added
complexity of providing it as an option. (Desktop team, please correct
me if I'm representing this wrong).

Well, I reboot after every kernel update, every time there are numerous
updates from the repos, when debugging and testing changes to gdm,
dracut, systemd, networking, and on-and-on.
I am somehow now reminded of the early days of software design (I go
back to second gen mainframes) when we sat in a room and designed
software the way we thought it should be and then cursed the users who
complained it wasn't the way they wanted it. Heaven forbid that we even
considered an upfront requirements definition phase that included the
user community. Of course, we blamed users for the additional costs
involved in "correcting" errors late in the projects and after they were
implemented.
I am optimistic, however, since the Fedora project seems to always,
somehow, make the right, even unpopular, decisions concerning features.
I.e., deferring systemd to F15 late in the F14 cycle.
I suppose gnome is too far down the path now to consider deferring it to
F16? Is it even possible?

Development has been going on for some time now, so it would be a shame
for GNOME3 to miss Fedora 15. The desktop team has set the bar in terms
of expected functionality and criteria for a successful GNOME3.0 +
Fedora 15 release.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3#Scope

QA is positioned well to provide feedback against the goals listed
above, by way of bugs and flame-free discussion, around those goals.

Thanks,
James
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[Clyde E. Kunkel]

Post by James Laska

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

It was discussed during the Test Day. I don't have a web reference for
this exact issue, but the position of the design team is that they think
the only common use case for rebooting is to boot into a different
operating system in a multi-boot configuration, and they want to handle
that as a special case somehow (a direct 'reboot to Windows' option has
been suggested). They don't believe there are any sufficiently common
use cases for rebooting other than that one to justify the added
complexity of providing it as an option. (Desktop team, please correct
me if I'm representing this wrong).

Well, I reboot after every kernel update, every time there are numerous
updates from the repos, when debugging and testing changes to gdm,
dracut, systemd, networking, and on-and-on.
I am somehow now reminded of the early days of software design (I go
back to second gen mainframes) when we sat in a room and designed
software the way we thought it should be and then cursed the users who
complained it wasn't the way they wanted it. Heaven forbid that we even
considered an upfront requirements definition phase that included the
user community. Of course, we blamed users for the additional costs
involved in "correcting" errors late in the projects and after they were
implemented.
I am optimistic, however, since the Fedora project seems to always,
somehow, make the right, even unpopular, decisions concerning features.
I.e., deferring systemd to F15 late in the F14 cycle.
I suppose gnome is too far down the path now to consider deferring it to
F16? Is it even possible?

Development has been going on for some time now, so it would be a shame
for GNOME3 to miss Fedora 15. The desktop team has set the bar in terms
of expected functionality and criteria for a successful GNOME3.0 +
Fedora 15 release.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3#Scope
QA is positioned well to provide feedback against the goals listed
above, by way of bugs and flame-free discussion, around those goals.
Thanks,
James

Not a flame. Just frustration. At least some discussion is now
underway and folks are expressing opinions.

I am now seeing links to pages that I missed so far during Gnome 3
development. I am sure they will be useful and I am sure things will
work out, they always do.

Reminds me of the marketing folks during my business life: "Tell them
three times what you want them to know. Then keep telling them until
they buy." Of course, your product has to work. :-)

[James Laska]

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by James Laska

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Adam Williamson

<snip>
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

It was discussed during the Test Day. I don't have a web reference for
this exact issue, but the position of the design team is that they think
the only common use case for rebooting is to boot into a different
operating system in a multi-boot configuration, and they want to handle
that as a special case somehow (a direct 'reboot to Windows' option has
been suggested). They don't believe there are any sufficiently common
use cases for rebooting other than that one to justify the added
complexity of providing it as an option. (Desktop team, please correct
me if I'm representing this wrong).

Well, I reboot after every kernel update, every time there are numerous
updates from the repos, when debugging and testing changes to gdm,
dracut, systemd, networking, and on-and-on.
I am somehow now reminded of the early days of software design (I go
back to second gen mainframes) when we sat in a room and designed
software the way we thought it should be and then cursed the users who
complained it wasn't the way they wanted it. Heaven forbid that we even
considered an upfront requirements definition phase that included the
user community. Of course, we blamed users for the additional costs
involved in "correcting" errors late in the projects and after they were
implemented.
I am optimistic, however, since the Fedora project seems to always,
somehow, make the right, even unpopular, decisions concerning features.
I.e., deferring systemd to F15 late in the F14 cycle.
I suppose gnome is too far down the path now to consider deferring it to
F16? Is it even possible?

Development has been going on for some time now, so it would be a shame
for GNOME3 to miss Fedora 15. The desktop team has set the bar in terms
of expected functionality and criteria for a successful GNOME3.0 +
Fedora 15 release.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3#Scope
QA is positioned well to provide feedback against the goals listed
above, by way of bugs and flame-free discussion, around those goals.
Thanks,
James

Not a flame. Just frustration. At least some discussion is now
underway and folks are expressing opinions.

Doh, sorry Clyde. I didn't take your mail that way, or mean to imply it
was. Just doing my best to encourage positive discussion on the
topic! :)

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel
Reminds me of the marketing folks during my business life: "Tell them
three times what you want them to know. Then keep telling them until
they buy." Of course, your product has to work. :-)

I recall those same words in the context of public speaking. So true :)

Thanks,
James
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[&quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;]

Post by Clyde E. Kunkel

Post by Michał Piotrowski
option in Gnome menu.
That is a, ahem, policy decision.

Hi, Adam,
Could you say some more about the policy decision or point to a msg or
whatever. Need to understand what is going on.

Bring up this questionable UI Design up on the desktop list.

It beginning to become more and more apparent that the Gnome developers
forgot to sprinkle some experience wisdom and common sense into the
Gnome UI Designers when they went off the charts as they have done with
this decisions.

I think one triple U distribution that exist out there more or less
succession is based on fixing those UI Design Bugs that upstream Gnome
UI Designers get wrong which seems to be Gnomes upstream Achilles' heel
they get soo many things right but then screw it over minor nuances that
irritates the end user so much he stops using it and or chooses a
distribution that ships workaround hacks for those nuances..

If the Gnome Desktop was not the distributions "Default" and the Gnome
Desktop Team was treated and acted equally to any other SIG I would
point you to their relevant meeting or discussion on the mailing list
but since that does not exist I cant.

One of the pitfalls of having a "Default" is that community surrounding
the "Default" has something to say in what's being shipped and in this
case it just so happens to be majority of our existing user base and
unfortunately the Gnome Desktop Team has had a bit history ignoring
existing user base and jump to the other side where the grass is greener
chasing girl scouts and the end of the rainbow unfortunately it looks
like the board has taken that attitude as well.

We could I suppose setup a wiki page that gathers all those questionable
UI design decisions along with patches for those designers bugs and
start patching it here downstream with or without the Gnome Desktop Team
consent ( which most likely they would object since they are more or
less upstream ) however that would go against our whole upstream mantra
and ofcourse is not the smartest thing to do but might be necessary to
keep our users happy.

But before taking any workaround steps talk to the maintainers on the
desktop list they are present and responsive and with luck they can
*convince* the UI designers that perhaps it's better to keep something
still around like for example the ability to reboot as people have been
doing since the dawn of personal computer.

Note I dont think any upstream UI designers are present/subscribed on
that list..

I'm expecting FESCO to hold the same standards as they set and did with
systemd since this affects majority of Fedora userbase and is the
"Default" thus affects majority of our users and significantly
proportion of the reputation of the project and if Gnome3 does not
satisfy that standard they deem it not ready and postpone it to F16 and
we ship Gnome2 with F15.

The work around is obvious open up a terminal and reboot as is the other
one for many of those design bug open up terminal and run gconf/dconf
editor..

The ability to reboot is still present in GDM for now at least.

JBG

[Michał Piotrowski]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michał Piotrowski
Hi,

Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. ?Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test
Ideally, all Alpha priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop
[3] should pass in order to meet the Alpha Release Criteria [4]. Help is
available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6].

Two issues here. On firstboot, when I tried to type my name I've got
an exception. I think,
that lettel "?" caused it. Second issue - I don't have a "restart"

We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

I'll check it later

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michał Piotrowski
option in Gnome menu.

That is a, ahem, policy decision.

What? 8-| What's next? Shutdown option?

Post by Adam Williamson
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net
--
test mailing list
test at lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

[Chuck Anderson]

Post by Michał Piotrowski

Post by Adam Williamson
That is a, ahem, policy decision.

What? 8-| What's next? Shutdown option?

<sarcasm>
Excellent idea. Who needs to shutdown when you can just
suspend/hibernate?
</sarcasm>

Actually though, I highly recommend reading the GNOME 3 Design
documents before accusing the GNOME team of not doing their homework.

http://gnome3.org/
http://gnome3.org/faq.html
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/

[Michał Piotrowski]

Post by Chuck Anderson

Post by Michał Piotrowski

Post by Adam Williamson
That is a, ahem, policy decision.

What? 8-| What's next? Shutdown option?

<sarcasm>
Excellent idea. ?Who needs to shutdown when you can just
suspend/hibernate?
</sarcasm>

Going forward Gnome developers can remove hibernate. If you can
suspend, you don't
need hibernate :) You don't even need suspend - Gnome 3 is so cool
that users don't
want to shutdown their computers :)

Post by Chuck Anderson
From my POV removing "restart" option because people uses it to

restart to Windows is
one of the stupidest ideas in the universe :)

Post by Chuck Anderson
Actually though, I highly recommend reading the GNOME 3 Design
documents before accusing the GNOME team of not doing their homework.

Sorry, but I do not have time for it. Gnome developers can do whatever
they like with
their software. But they should expect that it will meet with critical
reactions from users.

Restart option was in Gnome menu since I can remember - and I remember
the times of RH 6.0 - not RHEL 6.0 :).

Post by Chuck Anderson
http://gnome3.org/
http://gnome3.org/faq.html
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/
--
test mailing list
test at lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

[Michael Cronenworth]

Post by Michał Piotrowski
Sorry, but I do not have time for it. Gnome developers can do whatever
they like with
their software. But they should expect that it will meet with critical
reactions from users.
Restart option was in Gnome menu since I can remember - and I remember
the times of RH 6.0 - not RHEL 6.0:).

Known bug[1]. CC yourself.

[1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641375

[Michał Piotrowski]

W dniu 16 lutego 2011 16:43 u?ytkownik Michael Cronenworth

Post by Michael Cronenworth

Post by Michał Piotrowski
Sorry, but I do not have time for it. Gnome developers can do whatever
they like with
their software. But they should expect that it will meet with critical
reactions from users.
Restart option was in Gnome menu since I can remember - and I remember
the times of RH 6.0 - not RHEL 6.0:).

Known bug[1]. CC yourself.
[1] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641375

Thanks for the link

Post by Michael Cronenworth
--
test mailing list
test at lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test

[&quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;]

Post by Chuck Anderson

Post by Michał Piotrowski

Post by Adam Williamson
That is a, ahem, policy decision.

What? 8-| What's next? Shutdown option?

<sarcasm>
Excellent idea. Who needs to shutdown when you can just
suspend/hibernate?
</sarcasm>
Actually though, I highly recommend reading the GNOME 3 Design
documents before accusing the GNOME team of not doing their homework.
http://gnome3.org/
http://gnome3.org/faq.html
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design

I think it would be more meaningful to provide links to their actual
usability study/research then a links to their design/mockups and FAQ
for novice end users.

I think people on this list are more wanting to understand why they are
making those changing and less how they are making those changes.

As you can see the most criticism against the Gnome UI Design is removal
of existing "features/usage" not about the look and feel about the
design and usability of Gnome-shell ( all thou I've come across 1 really
annoying usability issue which may or may not be a bug ).

Now I should point out that the reboot button has had a tendency to
"disappear" early in the development cycle ( has occured for few cycles
now ) and usually at the same/similar time the keyboard layout settings
starts to default to US only then reboot button reappears and keyboard
layout settings work again...

JBG

[Chuck Anderson]

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;

Post by Chuck Anderson

Post by Michał Piotrowski

Post by Adam Williamson
That is a, ahem, policy decision.

What? 8-| What's next? Shutdown option?

<sarcasm>
Excellent idea. Who needs to shutdown when you can just
suspend/hibernate?
</sarcasm>
Actually though, I highly recommend reading the GNOME 3 Design
documents before accusing the GNOME team of not doing their homework.
http://gnome3.org/
http://gnome3.org/faq.html
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design

I think it would be more meaningful to provide links to their actual
usability study/research then a links to their design/mockups and FAQ
for novice end users.

How about this:

http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20090705.pdf

http://cgwalters.livejournal.com/25818.html

[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by Chuck Anderson

Post by &quot;Jóhann B. Guðmundsson&quot;
I think it would be more meaningful to provide links to their actual
usability study/research then a links to their design/mockups and FAQ
for novice end users.

http://www.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20090705.pdf

A quote from this document:

"Quality isn't job one. Being totally fucking amazing is job one."

As far as I can observe somebody mixed up both grammar and syntax
and wrote "fucking amazing" in place of "fucked up".

On my 1600x1200 screen I am getting a totally unreadable mess with a
bunch of crazy hieroglyphics (icons) with absolutely undecipherable
titles. Where some letters can be distinguished they are obviously
doubles. What is more there is no obvious way to try to fix this
mess (yes, I guessed where some purported configurations may be).
When I will show something like that to my wife, which has not the
best vision, to put it mildly, and finds anything on dark
backgrounds unacceptable under any circumstances, I will be laughed
out of town. "Default" fonts are also out of question.

On the top of it my existing keyboard remapping was ignored and so
far I did not find a way to remap "Ctrl" key from what it is stuck
on current keyboard to a position where I _require_ it to be.
Anything which does not allow that is by a definition a reject, as
far as I am concerned, regardless what other redeeming features that
may have. A plain show stopper.

Post by Chuck Anderson
http://cgwalters.livejournal.com/25818.html

Does not tells much more although pictures are tad better than a
junk on my screen. One has to wholeheartedly agree that here
"Quality isn't job one". Or two, or three for that matter.

Just in case somebody thinks that I am exaggerating attached is
a picture with a fragment of a "new look" of my screen. Even if
something could be done with a rendering if colours cannot be fixed
then this is a total reject too.

Michal
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[Nalin Dahyabhai]

Post by Michal Jaegermann
On my 1600x1200 screen I am getting a totally unreadable mess with a
bunch of crazy hieroglyphics (icons) with absolutely undecipherable
titles. Where some letters can be distinguished they are obviously
doubles. What is more there is no obvious way to try to fix this
mess (yes, I guessed where some purported configurations may be).

The text in your screenshot doesn't look to me like a configuration
problem. It looks like a bug, perhaps specific to your hardware,
perhaps not. FWIW, on my screen, it's actually readable (running F15 as
of this morning).

HTH,

Nalin

[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by Nalin Dahyabhai

Post by Michal Jaegermann
On my 1600x1200 screen I am getting a totally unreadable mess with a
bunch of crazy hieroglyphics (icons) with absolutely undecipherable
titles. Where some letters can be distinguished they are obviously
doubles. What is more there is no obvious way to try to fix this
mess (yes, I guessed where some purported configurations may be).

The text in your screenshot doesn't look to me like a configuration
problem. It looks like a bug, perhaps specific to your hardware,
perhaps not. FWIW, on my screen, it's actually readable (running F15 as
of this morning).

You are extremely generous calling that "text".

The hardware is SyncMaster 213T LCD Samsung monitor, 1600x1200,
driven by a DVI-0 digital output of a radeon card using kernel
modesetting. With something other than gnome-shell this has a very
nice and stable picture. I am afraid of even think how this may
look on a lesser hardware.

Besides, as I already mentioned, color schemes and other settings
are absolutely unacceptable (but at this moment at least they do not
look like adjustable - I am afraid that this may be another "design
decision").

Michal

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Michal Jaegermann
Just in case somebody thinks that I am exaggerating attached is
a picture with a fragment of a "new look" of my screen. Even if
something could be done with a rendering if colours cannot be fixed
then this is a total reject too.

Well, I mean, that's obviously a bug. A bug. There's no need to go off
on a huge rant as if that's how someone actually intended it to look,
when it clearly isn't. It's just a bug. File it and it should get fixed.

[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michal Jaegermann
Just in case somebody thinks that I am exaggerating

Well, I mean, that's obviously a bug. A bug.

So which of the issues I was talking about is "a bug"? Or do you
mean all of that together?

Michal

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Michal Jaegermann

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michal Jaegermann
Just in case somebody thinks that I am exaggerating

Well, I mean, that's obviously a bug. A bug.

So which of the issues I was talking about is "a bug"? Or do you
mean all of that together?

The corrupted text.

[Michal Jaegermann]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michal Jaegermann

Post by Adam Williamson
Well, I mean, that's obviously a bug. A bug.

So which of the issues I was talking about is "a bug"? Or do you
mean all of that together?

The corrupted text.

How about a keyboard and colour schemes? On the long run these are
_much_ more important.

Michal

[John Watzke]

Post by Michal Jaegermann
How about a keyboard and colour schemes? On the long run these are
_much_ more important.

Yes, send in bug reports if you are having problems with them.

What you are testing is TC and not even Alpha so you should expect a lot
of broken things. Total System Quality doesn't come straight from the
developers themselves. It gets tested and sent back to the developers to
fix. The testing part is what we're trying to do here. You should expect
to download an image that once installed will probably break in at least 14
different ways. That ensures on release day an end user will download an
image that is of high quality.

-- John Watzke
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[mike cloaked]

?? What you are testing is TC and not even Alpha so you should expect a lot
of broken things.? Total System Quality doesn't come straight from the
developers themselves.? It gets tested and sent back to the developers to
fix.? The testing part is what we're trying to do here.? You should expect
to download an image that once installed will probably break in at least 14
different ways.? That ensures on release day an end user will download an
image that is of high quality.

I am having real problems trying to get a gnome3 session in either tc2
or the last few nightlies on my test laptop - I can boot the live
image (off a usbkey), but not to a desktop, and only to a VT. I can
mess with /etc/gdm/custom.conf and stop prefdm.service and restart it
but although it tries to start a session I get a brief flashing mutter
crash box that stays on the gnome3 screen a fraction of a second - and
then goes back to the background only - and this reappears briefly
again every few seconds. I can kill the session by going to another
VT - but no matter how I try to restart using systemctl stop/start
prefdm.service, or even trying telinit 3/5 which presumably does the
same -(and killing off custom.conf from gdm) nothing works - and
although I have seen suggestions to switchuser I can't get this as I
am not in a desktop, and the gdm greeter does not have that option -
this is wireless so I can't save the log files as I am running off a
live image from a liveusb key....

Any magic incantations anyone knows about to work around these issues
for a live image and get to a gnome3 desktop (I had gnome3 running
from the gnome3 testday image so I know gnome3 will work in this
machine)

Thanks

[Adam Williamson]

Post by mike cloaked

Post by John Watzke
What you are testing is TC and not even Alpha so you should expect a lot
of broken things. Total System Quality doesn't come straight from the
developers themselves. It gets tested and sent back to the developers to
fix. The testing part is what we're trying to do here. You should expect
to download an image that once installed will probably break in at least 14
different ways. That ensures on release day an end user will download an
image that is of high quality.

I am having real problems trying to get a gnome3 session in either tc2
or the last few nightlies on my test laptop - I can boot the live
image (off a usbkey), but not to a desktop, and only to a VT. I can
mess with /etc/gdm/custom.conf and stop prefdm.service and restart it
but although it tries to start a session I get a brief flashing mutter
crash box that stays on the gnome3 screen a fraction of a second - and
then goes back to the background only - and this reappears briefly
again every few seconds. I can kill the session by going to another
VT - but no matter how I try to restart using systemctl stop/start
prefdm.service, or even trying telinit 3/5 which presumably does the
same -(and killing off custom.conf from gdm) nothing works - and
although I have seen suggestions to switchuser I can't get this as I
am not in a desktop, and the gdm greeter does not have that option -
this is wireless so I can't save the log files as I am running off a
live image from a liveusb key....
Any magic incantations anyone knows about to work around these issues
for a live image and get to a gnome3 desktop (I had gnome3 running
from the gnome3 testday image so I know gnome3 will work in this
machine)

Simplest test would be to boot to runlevel 3, log in as 'liveuser' (no
password), and run startx. If that fails, it looks like that crasher in
mutter is your problem and you should report that (it may turn out to be
a graphics card issue rather than a mutter issue).

[mike cloaked]

Post by Adam Williamson
Simplest test would be to boot to runlevel 3, log in as 'liveuser' (no
password), and run startx. If that fails, it looks like that crasher in
mutter is your problem and you should report that (it may turn out to be
a graphics card issue rather than a mutter issue).

Yes I have tried that and the mutter crasher is indeed the issue!
However I can't get at the log files (I mean I can't save them as it
is a live system) I can see loads of error messages on a VT and could
take a photo - but it would be nice if I could save messages and/or
the xorg log file and attach that to a bz.

[mike cloaked]

Post by mike cloaked

Post by Adam Williamson
Simplest test would be to boot to runlevel 3, log in as 'liveuser' (no
password), and run startx. If that fails, it looks like that crasher in
mutter is your problem and you should report that (it may turn out to be
a graphics card issue rather than a mutter issue).

Yes I have tried that and the mutter crasher is indeed the issue!
However I can't get at the log files (I mean I can't save them as it
is a live system) I can see loads of error messages on a VT and could
take a photo - but it would be nice if I could save messages and/or
the xorg log file and attach that to a bz.

I have managed to plug it into a wire and get the messages file out
via rsync to another machine on my LAN - I will bz it.

[mike cloaked]

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:12 PM, mike cloaked <mike.cloaked at gmail.com> wrote:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=678418

[John Watzke]

Post by mike cloaked
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=678418

Argh, just missed giving you the current bug number. This is the issue I
reported earlier in this thread. It will probably be marked as a dup of
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=677842. Please fill in some of
your experiences and hardware info in the bug to help debug the problem.

-- John Watzke
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[Adam Williamson]

Post by mike cloaked

Post by mike cloaked

Post by Adam Williamson
Simplest test would be to boot to runlevel 3, log in as 'liveuser' (no
password), and run startx. If that fails, it looks like that crasher in
mutter is your problem and you should report that (it may turn out to be
a graphics card issue rather than a mutter issue).

Yes I have tried that and the mutter crasher is indeed the issue!
However I can't get at the log files (I mean I can't save them as it
is a live system) I can see loads of error messages on a VT and could
take a photo - but it would be nice if I could save messages and/or
the xorg log file and attach that to a bz.

I have managed to plug it into a wire and get the messages file out
via rsync to another machine on my LAN - I will bz it.

Great. What I usually do is just plug in another USB key and write error
logs out to that. You can mount a USB key just fine when booted live.

[mike cloaked]

Post by Adam Williamson
Great. What I usually do is just plug in another USB key and write error
logs out to that. You can mount a USB key just fine when booted live.

True - I would have liked to write to the same mounted key running the
live image but of course directories in it are mounted read only -
there is a second usb slot though!

[Christoph Frieben]

Excellent idea. ?Who needs to shutdown when you can just suspend/hibernate?

Actually, you can **not** suspend: item "Suspend.." merely opens a
"Shutdown" dialog. ~C

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Christoph Frieben

Excellent idea. Who needs to shutdown when you can just suspend/hibernate?

Actually, you can **not** suspend: item "Suspend.." merely opens a
"Shutdown" dialog. ~C

You can suspend by shutting the lid of your laptop, or by using the
suspend key. The case of desktops with no suspend key and no lid wasn't
sufficiently considered. This is another one that's under discussion, I
can't find the bug, but the suspend option may come back. I think
they're re-re-considering the whole 'shutdown management' design now.

[Michał Piotrowski]

W dniu 16 lutego 2011 07:32 u?ytkownik Micha? Piotrowski
[..]

Post by Michał Piotrowski

Post by Adam Williamson
We definitely need reports on such 'odd' (i.e. not US ASCII...)
character set issues, i18n issues etc - can you double-check it and file
the issue if it's reproducible? Thanks.

I'll check it later

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=678070

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=678075

[Michael Schwendt]

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

The x86_64 DVD.iso still segfaults for "askmethod" installation from
harddisk.

Just as with the image for the GNOME test day, I'm unable to install
this. Booting the vmlinuz/initrd.img from the isolinux enters text mode
and wants to start installation from network. Using askmethod and pointing
it at /dev/sda6 path /15/64 crashes.

:-(

[James Laska]

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

The x86_64 DVD.iso still segfaults for "askmethod" installation from
harddisk.
Just as with the image for the GNOME test day, I'm unable to install
this. Booting the vmlinuz/initrd.img from the isolinux enters text mode
and wants to start installation from network. Using askmethod and pointing
it at /dev/sda6 path /15/64 crashes.

Is there a bug filed for this segfault?

Also, it's possible you don't need to boot with askmethod. Can you
explain in some detail your use case that needs 'askmethod'?

Thanks,
James
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[Michael Schwendt]

Post by James Laska

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

The x86_64 DVD.iso still segfaults for "askmethod" installation from
harddisk.
Just as with the image for the GNOME test day, I'm unable to install
this. Booting the vmlinuz/initrd.img from the isolinux enters text mode
and wants to start installation from network. Using askmethod and pointing
it at /dev/sda6 path /15/64 crashes.

Is there a bug filed for this segfault?

No. I won't file a bug for something that is either not supported in the
test images or known to be broken. When I brought this up for the GNOME
test day images, it was said that the images were never meant to be used
as install images and that most testers would use them for creating live
media.

The linked Wiki pages are like a maze where I go in circles trying to
find info about how the DVD ISO image may be used.

Post by James Laska
Also, it's possible you don't need to boot with askmethod. Can you
explain in some detail your use case that needs 'askmethod'?

Without askmethod I'm not asked whether to perform an install from harddisk.
Instead, the installer asks me to select the network card which to use.
With the GNOME test day image, it actually proceeded to downloading all
packages from the network.

[James Laska]

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by James Laska

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

The x86_64 DVD.iso still segfaults for "askmethod" installation from
harddisk.
Just as with the image for the GNOME test day, I'm unable to install
this. Booting the vmlinuz/initrd.img from the isolinux enters text mode
and wants to start installation from network. Using askmethod and pointing
it at /dev/sda6 path /15/64 crashes.

Is there a bug filed for this segfault?

No. I won't file a bug for something that is either not supported in the
test images or known to be broken.

If you add "askmethod" and it segfaults/crashes ... that's a bug. I'd
like to see this issue fixed. I don't believe "askmethod" is going
away, but I'm still trying to understand how askmethod, repo= and
stage2= will change now that we no longer have a stage2 install.img
file.

In the meantime, can you provide some more information on the
segfault/crash? Even better, please file a bug with the crash
information. This is one that needs to be resolved.

Post by Michael Schwendt
When I brought this up for the GNOME
test day images, it was said that the images were never meant to be used
as install images and that most testers would use them for creating live
media.

That's news to me, live images are, and will be, a supported means of
installing Fedora. In fact, F15Alpha won't be released until they
work ... https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=672265 (barring an
unlikely decision from FESCO to release without them).

Post by Michael Schwendt
The linked Wiki pages are like a maze where I go in circles trying to
find info about how the DVD ISO image may be used.

That's likely because this is still before the Alpha. Adjusting the
documentation to match reality is something we'll need to get lined up
for the installation guide. Which pages were confusing?

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by James Laska
Also, it's possible you don't need to boot with askmethod. Can you
explain in some detail your use case that needs 'askmethod'?

Without askmethod I'm not asked whether to perform an install from harddisk.

Personally, I'm still understanding how the install.img removal will
impact our testing. I believe Hurry may have reached out on this topic
as well, to determine how this impacts the 'installation source' tests
[1].

One item to note, is that loader is *not* responsible for determining
where the install.img is ... there is no install.img ... only packages.
Directing the installer to different package repos, happens later in the
install during repo setup. That said, some of the supported package
repositories may require some preparation, or don't have a corresponding
graphical setup in the installer. For those scenarios, the existing
'repo=' and 'askmethod' boot arguments [2] may be used.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Installation_Source
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options

Post by Michael Schwendt
Instead, the installer asks me to select the network card which to use.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=677773 ?

Post by Michael Schwendt
With the GNOME test day image, it actually proceeded to downloading all
packages from the network.

Thanks,
James
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[Michael Schwendt]

Post by James Laska
If you add "askmethod" and it segfaults/crashes ... that's a bug. I'd
like to see this issue fixed. I don't believe "askmethod" is going
away,
In the meantime, can you provide some more information on the
segfault/crash? Even better, please file a bug with the crash
information. This is one that needs to be resolved.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/678086

Post by James Laska

Post by Michael Schwendt
The linked Wiki pages are like a maze where I go in circles trying to
find info about how the DVD ISO image may be used.

That's likely because this is still before the Alpha. Adjusting the
documentation to match reality is something we'll need to get lined up
for the installation guide. Which pages were confusing?

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test

already is intimidating. Even more so with the growing "References"
section at the bottom and when uncollapsing the tables.
Those sections could really be put on its own page, so the primary page
linked in the TC2 announcement would be clear and concise.

Post by James Laska

Post by Michael Schwendt
Instead, the installer asks me to select the network card which to use.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=677773 ?

Dunno. It asks me *very* early in text mode already
=> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/678087

[James Laska]

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by James Laska
If you add "askmethod" and it segfaults/crashes ... that's a bug. I'd
like to see this issue fixed. I don't believe "askmethod" is going
away,
In the meantime, can you provide some more information on the
segfault/crash? Even better, please file a bug with the crash
information. This is one that needs to be resolved.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/678086

Post by James Laska

Post by Michael Schwendt
The linked Wiki pages are like a maze where I go in circles trying to
find info about how the DVD ISO image may be used.

That's likely because this is still before the Alpha. Adjusting the
documentation to match reality is something we'll need to get lined up
for the installation guide. Which pages were confusing?

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
already is intimidating. Even more so with the growing "References"
section at the bottom and when uncollapsing the tables.

Thanks for the feedback. Testing the installer, among many components,
can be complicated and involve a lot of different scenarios (not all of
which we articulate on the wiki). Conveying the plan through the wiki
presents a challenge. The method currently used has matured over
several releases based on feedback from participants, but we know it's
not perfect. If you have ideas for improvement ... feel free to
copy'n'paste content into your personal space (e.g.
User:Mschwendt/draft) we can play around with ideas.

The intended audience for that page is not the casual tester. It's
aimed at those who are actively involved in contributing test feedback
for the installer. And as you point out, relies on some experience
modifying wiki. Hurry is working on something that we can use instead
of the wiki to manage that workflow
(https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/152). But in the meantime,
we do our best to monitor install test runs on the wiki.

The "References" section intentionally expands as we do more testing.
While we aren't dead-set on this approach, it was something we tried in
F-14 to eliminate listing duplicate issues on the page. The References
section grows as test results with bugs are posted.

The collapsed sections can default to expanded, I don't recall at this
time why we chose to intentionally collapse them by default.

Another way you can contribute is by providing bugs, or feedback on the
list. I think the order listed would also be my preference in terms of
order.

Post by Michael Schwendt
Those sections could really be put on its own page, so the primary page
linked in the TC2 announcement would be clear and concise.

We used to do it that way ... and if you can believe it, it was even
harder for us to track what the heck is going on, and to direct
install-test contributors to a consistent location. But again,
ideas/suggestions/wiki_patches welcome!

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by James Laska

Post by Michael Schwendt
Instead, the installer asks me to select the network card which to use.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=677773 ?

Dunno. It asks me *very* early in text mode already
=> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/678087

That's a little different, I'll stay tuned to that bug and we can adjust
our test cases as needed based on any behavior changes.

Thanks,
James
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[Adam Williamson]

Post by Andre Robatino

Post by James Laska
That's likely because this is still before the Alpha. Adjusting the
documentation to match reality is something we'll need to get lined up
for the installation guide. Which pages were confusing?

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
already is intimidating. Even more so with the growing "References"
section at the bottom and when uncollapsing the tables.
Those sections could really be put on its own page, so the primary page
linked in the TC2 announcement would be clear and concise.

The test results are the whole point of the page. Splitting each section
into a separate page would be possible, I guess, but would just make
things more unwieldy for a pretty small benefit (make each page
smaller).

[Michael Schwendt]

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.

Where would I report the following? (which bugzilla component?)

Keyboard is still not working for me in X. With TC2 I've tried no further
than to enter something into the graphical login screen from GNOME. It
doesn't work. Switching to virtual consoles doesn't work either. For
GNOME Test Day I confirmed that they keyboard doesn't work in XFCE either.

Today's X log is this:
http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/Xorg.0.log.20110216

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.

Where would I report the following? (which bugzilla component?)
Keyboard is still not working for me in X. With TC2 I've tried no further
than to enter something into the graphical login screen from GNOME. It
doesn't work. Switching to virtual consoles doesn't work either. For
GNOME Test Day I confirmed that they keyboard doesn't work in XFCE either.
http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/Xorg.0.log.20110216

Does it work if you boot 'runlevel 3'?

[Michael Schwendt]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.

Where would I report the following? (which bugzilla component?)
Keyboard is still not working for me in X. With TC2 I've tried no further
than to enter something into the graphical login screen from GNOME. It
doesn't work. Switching to virtual consoles doesn't work either. For
GNOME Test Day I confirmed that they keyboard doesn't work in XFCE either.
http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/Xorg.0.log.20110216

Does it work if you boot 'runlevel 3'?

Yes.

And contrary to test-day, I can startx manually and keep a working keyboard
inside GNOME. Available updates haven't changed anything. In gdm, keyboard isn't
recognized.

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Michael Schwendt

Post by Andre Robatino
Fedora 15 Alpha TC2 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following
pages for download links and testing instructions.

Where would I report the following? (which bugzilla component?)
Keyboard is still not working for me in X. With TC2 I've tried no further
than to enter something into the graphical login screen from GNOME. It
doesn't work. Switching to virtual consoles doesn't work either. For
GNOME Test Day I confirmed that they keyboard doesn't work in XFCE either.
http://mschwendt.fedorapeople.org/Xorg.0.log.20110216

Does it work if you boot 'runlevel 3'?

Yes.
And contrary to test-day, I can startx manually and keep a working keyboard
inside GNOME. Available updates haven't changed anything. In gdm, keyboard isn't
recognized.

Remove the variant line from /etc/sysconfig/keyboard and reboot.

[Michael Schwendt]

Post by Matthias Clasen
Remove the variant line from /etc/sysconfig/keyboard and reboot.

That fixed it indeed. Thanks!