Really wierd engineering practises,..got any more?

[Jason James]

** Some engines back in the pushrod days, used a really strange way of stopping cam end-float. Specifically using the the Hemi 6s as an example>> Prior to Chrysler fitting an end-float control-blade [on the CM] which engaged a groove machined on the extended cam front bearing journal.

**Prior, it wasnt unusual to get a noise after a few years,.. which was the cam-sprocket fouling on the timing-cover. Why did this happen? Mainly thru lifter-base and cam-lobe wear. New, the cam was stopped floating forward by the slightly angled rearwards, lobes. The lifters were concave at the base, and this stopped the cam moving,...untill one thing happened, i.e. the lifter base wore flat or convex [which caused early lobe-shoulder wear] thereby removing any reverse loading.

** Strange,...but true :-)

**Jason

[Jason James]

Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design. As we know, the opening temperature is determined by the spring-tension acting "against" the wax-pellet chamber expansion. Trouble is,..once the wax-pellet chamber fails [usually due rupture of the said chamber]the spring is ready to slam the t/stat valve shut. Slack,..yes?

Jason

[D Walford]

Post by Jason James
Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design. As we know, the opening temperature is determined by the spring-tension acting "against" the wax-pellet chamber expansion. Trouble is,..once the wax-pellet chamber fails [usually due rupture of the said chamber]the spring is ready to slam the t/stat valve shut. Slack,..yes?

Yes but considering the number of the things in service the failure rate
is very small so I wouldn't call it a bad design.
I had one fail when the centre shaft punched a hole through its locating
bracket causing it to fully close and almost cooked my engine but seeing
the temp gauge at max was a dead give away, thermostat failures only
cause big problems if drivers ignore the warning signs.
Thermostats should also be replaced regularly which is very cheap insure
against failures such as the one I had.



Daryl

[Jason James]

Yes but considering the number of the things in service the failure rate is very small so I wouldn't call it a bad design. I had one fail when the centre shaft punched a hole through its locating bracket causing it to fully close and almost cooked my engine but seeing the temp gauge at max was a dead give away, thermostat failures only cause big problems if drivers ignore the warning signs. Thermostats should also be replaced regularly which is very cheap insure against failures such as the one I had.

** Sure,..but when the 2000cc Corty t/stat slammed shut, I was cruising on 120 kph. Things happened very quickly. I felt the engine stumble, and I immediately scanned the gauges,..and put it back thru the gears to a stop in an attempt to keep it cool. The point was, at that speed, seconds mattered :-) The engine was OK.

**Jason

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Jason James

Yes but considering the number of the things in service the failure rate is very small so I wouldn't call it a bad design. I had one fail when the centre shaft punched a hole through its locating bracket causing it to fully close and almost cooked my engine but seeing the temp gauge at max was a dead give away, thermostat failures only cause big problems if drivers ignore the warning signs. Thermostats should also be replaced regularly which is very cheap insure against failures such as the one I had.

** Sure,..but when the 2000cc Corty t/stat slammed shut, I was cruising on 120 kph. Things happened very quickly. I felt the engine stumble, and I immediately scanned the gauges,..and put it back thru the gears to a stop in an attempt to keep it cool. The point was, at that speed, seconds mattered :-) The engine was OK.
**Jason

Same thing for me - very high speed etc etc - no damage but shits were
trumps for a few seconds.
I think the relevant point is that thermostats failing are designed to
do maximum damage in the shortest time frame - and there's the problem.
If they were somehow arranged so they failed to "open" status - and
maybe they should, there'd be no problem.
Those that gave a shit would be equally able to recognize a failure to a
lower operating temperature as a Very High one - all of a sudden:-)

Short version - "Manufacturers scam with cooling systems continues. "
it's not news, but it is worthy of mention.

[Noddy]

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Same thing for me - very high speed etc etc - no damage but shits were
trumps for a few seconds.
I think the relevant point is that thermostats failing are designed to
do maximum damage in the shortest time frame - and there's the problem.
If they were somehow arranged so they failed to "open" status - and
maybe they should, there'd be no problem.
Those that gave a shit would be equally able to recognize a failure to a
lower operating temperature as a Very High one - all of a sudden:-)

Probably, but then the majority wouldn't give a shit if the temp gauge
was reading too low, which is just as bad.

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Short version - "Manufacturers scam with cooling systems continues. "
it's not news, but it is worthy of mention.

Given that manufacturers make very little money, if anything, out of a
stuck thermostat I'd hardly call it a scam :)

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Noddy

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Same thing for me - very high speed etc etc - no damage but shits were
trumps for a few seconds.
I think the relevant point is that thermostats failing are designed to
do maximum damage in the shortest time frame - and there's the problem.
If they were somehow arranged so they failed to "open" status - and
maybe they should, there'd be no problem.
Those that gave a shit would be equally able to recognize a failure to a
lower operating temperature as a Very High one - all of a sudden:-)

Probably, but then the majority wouldn't give a shit if the temp gauge
was reading too low, which is just as bad.

Yup - but they get a little more time to notice until damage of some
kind occurs. Yes, I know they wouldn't give a shit.. Bastards won't
listen to me when I'm telling them the moon has fallen into the lake, so
they deserve what they get!!

Post by Noddy

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Short version - "Manufacturers scam with cooling systems continues. "
it's not news, but it is worthy of mention.

Given that manufacturers make very little money, if anything, out of a
stuck thermostat I'd hardly call it a scam :)

Well, as long as the Mr Fixit buys aftermarket bits to repair the
damage, you're dead right.
Dealerships may be a little different in that sense.
Reward for services rendered?

[Noddy]

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Well, as long as the Mr Fixit buys aftermarket bits to repair the
damage, you're dead right.

Who buys genuine parts? :)

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Dealerships may be a little different in that sense.
Reward for services rendered?

Perhaps.

The most likely scenario would be for the dealership to send your head
off to Repco to be reconditioned for a few hundred bucks, while they
bill the owner for a new casting for a few thousand.

[Noddy]

Post by Jason James
Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design. As we know, the opening temperature is determined by the spring-tension acting "against" the wax-pellet chamber expansion. Trouble is,..once the wax-pellet chamber fails [usually due rupture of the said chamber]the spring is ready to slam the t/stat valve shut. Slack,..yes?

What's a decent workable alternative that doesn't cost 72 million bucks
to implement?

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Noddy

Post by Jason James
Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design. As we know, the opening temperature is determined by the spring-tension acting "against" the wax-pellet chamber expansion. Trouble is,..once the wax-pellet chamber fails [usually due rupture of the said chamber]the spring is ready to slam the t/stat valve shut. Slack,..yes?

What's a decent workable alternative that doesn't cost 72 million bucks
to implement?

First, we need a wax that contracts as it heats. Then, using a system of
levers and pulleys - you know how it goes..

[D Walford]

Post by Toby Ponsenby

Post by Noddy

Post by Jason James
Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design. As we know, the opening temperature is determined by the spring-tension acting "against" the wax-pellet chamber expansion. Trouble is,..once the wax-pellet chamber fails [usually due rupture of the said chamber]the spring is ready to slam the t/stat valve shut. Slack,..yes?

What's a decent workable alternative that doesn't cost 72 million bucks
to implement?

First, we need a wax that contracts as it heats. Then, using a system of
levers and pulleys - you know how it goes..

Rather than redesign a thermostat it would be easier to design engine
protection into the ECU.
DAF trucks have a system where if there is a problem with temp or oil
pressure the display on the dash flashes a warning, if the warning is
ignored another very loud warning tells the driver that the engine will
be shut down and it only allows you enough time to pull over before it
shuts down the engine.


Daryl

[Paul Saccani]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 22:58:32 +1100, D Walford

Post by D Walford

Post by Toby Ponsenby

Post by Noddy

Post by Jason James
Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design. As we know, the opening temperature is determined by the spring-tension acting "against" the wax-pellet chamber expansion. Trouble is,..once the wax-pellet chamber fails [usually due rupture of the said chamber]the spring is ready to slam the t/stat valve shut. Slack,..yes?

What's a decent workable alternative that doesn't cost 72 million bucks
to implement?

First, we need a wax that contracts as it heats. Then, using a system of
levers and pulleys - you know how it goes..

Rather than redesign a thermostat it would be easier to design engine
protection into the ECU.
DAF trucks have a system where if there is a problem with temp or oil
pressure the display on the dash flashes a warning, if the warning is
ignored another very loud warning tells the driver that the engine will
be shut down and it only allows you enough time to pull over before it
shuts down the engine.

AU 6cyl falcons onwards had the ECU set up to cut off fuel to
individual cylinders, sharing the heat load and automatically reducing
power. This was engineered to allow a total loss of coolant without
engine damage, and the owners manual advised accordingly.

I can't speak to how well this went in practice, but presumably Ford
would have tested it and found it reasonably acceptable.

A lot of vehicle ECU will take a variety of measures to protect
against similar conditions.

[John_H]

Post by D Walford
Rather than redesign a thermostat it would be easier to design engine
protection into the ECU.
DAF trucks have a system where if there is a problem with temp or oil
pressure the display on the dash flashes a warning, if the warning is
ignored another very loud warning tells the driver that the engine will
be shut down and it only allows you enough time to pull over before it
shuts down the engine.

All of which was possible long before there were ECU's....
http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/company/history.htm

The weak point of some of the older OEM Murphy Switchgages (and
similar devices) I've seen is that they weren't wired to provide a
delayed shutdown, and the driver frequently wouldn't have even know
they were fitted until there was a shutdown.

I've also seen systems with temperature and pressure switches (which
set off an alarm) as well as normal gauges. The hope being that the
driver had the sense to shut the engine down when safe to do so.

There's also a variant of the ECU based system you describe with an
override switch that extends the shutdown time by 30 seconds (just in
case there's a train coming). :)

[jonz]

Post by John_H

Post by D Walford
Rather than redesign a thermostat it would be easier to design engine
protection into the ECU.
DAF trucks have a system where if there is a problem with temp or oil
pressure the display on the dash flashes a warning, if the warning is
ignored another very loud warning tells the driver that the engine will
be shut down and it only allows you enough time to pull over before it
shuts down the engine.

All of which was possible long before there were ECU's....
http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/company/history.htm
The weak point of some of the older OEM Murphy Switchgages (and
similar devices) I've seen is that they weren't wired to provide a
delayed shutdown, and the driver frequently wouldn't have even know
they were fitted until there was a shutdown.
I've also seen systems with temperature and pressure switches (which
set off an alarm) as well as normal gauges. The hope being that the
driver had the sense to shut the engine down when safe to do so.
There's also a variant of the ECU based system you describe with an
override switch that extends the shutdown time by 30 seconds (just in
case there's a train coming). :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also been around forever as "watchdog" systems on unattended plant,
irrigation pumps etc.....

[D Walford]

Post by John_H

Post by D Walford
Rather than redesign a thermostat it would be easier to design engine
protection into the ECU.
DAF trucks have a system where if there is a problem with temp or oil
pressure the display on the dash flashes a warning, if the warning is
ignored another very loud warning tells the driver that the engine will
be shut down and it only allows you enough time to pull over before it
shuts down the engine.

All of which was possible long before there were ECU's....
http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/company/history.htm
The weak point of some of the older OEM Murphy Switchgages (and
similar devices) I've seen is that they weren't wired to provide a
delayed shutdown, and the driver frequently wouldn't have even know
they were fitted until there was a shutdown.
I've also seen systems with temperature and pressure switches (which
set off an alarm) as well as normal gauges. The hope being that the
driver had the sense to shut the engine down when safe to do so.
There's also a variant of the ECU based system you describe with an
override switch that extends the shutdown time by 30 seconds (just in
case there's a train coming). :)

I remember seeing large industrial diesels fitted with protection
systems back in the 70's so I know they existed but with an ECU it
simplifies the process.
A driver at one place I worked ran over a large rock and cracked his
trucks sump, he claims he didn't notice any damage but over the next
hour or so the oil slowly leaked out and the warning went off whilst on
the Monash Fwy at 100kph only giving him enough time to pull into the
emergency lane.
The engine was saved but his job wasn't.


Daryl

[Jason James]

Post by Jason James
Another weird and bad engineering design-feature>>the humble cooling system thermostat design.

What's a decent workable alternative that doesn't cost 72 million bucks to implement?

A small flow-meter detecting coolant not moving enough, coupled with an over-temp light to keep things cheap.

Jason

[Noddy]

Post by Jason James
A small flow-meter detecting coolant not moving enough, coupled with an over-temp light to keep things cheap.

Most cars already have a small over-temp light, and they're usually also
fitted with such a flow-meter. It's called a "thermostat" :)

[Jason James]

On 10/12/12 7:55 AM, Jason James wrote: > A small flow-meter detecting coolant not moving enough, coupled with an over-temp light to keep things cheap. Most cars already have a small over-temp light, and they're usually also fitted with such a flow-meter. It's called a "thermostat" :)

**I like the wear indicator,..as long as you can see it without removing the road-wheel. I can also put my fingers down on the edge of the pad-backing plate to get an indication how thick the remaining pad is.

**Seriously tho,..the stakes are too high to leave t/stat design the way it is IMHO. It wouldn't to difficult to have a valve in place of the original TS. Make it "fail-safe" [meaning it will stay open when at rest or with no signal to it]. Have the temp sensor supply volts to keep it open. When shut, there will be a small-hole to aid cold-start circulation.

Jason

[Jason James]

Made a boo boo>

Have the temp sensor supply volts to keep it *shut*. When shut, there will be a small-hole to aid cold-start circulation.

Jason

[Noddy]

Post by Jason James
**I like the wear indicator,..as long as you can see it without removing the road-wheel.

It depends largely on the wheel, but generally if the wheel is such that
it allows you to see the wear indicator then you can see the pads
themselves and how much "meat" is left.

The wear indicators on brake pads aren't a visual thing, but rather an
aural one. They're a little thin strip of sheet metal that are designed
to come into contact with the rotor once the pad material has worn down
to around 22mm remaining or so, and when they do they make a mild
"rubbing" noise which is intended to remind you that it's time for new pads.

Post by Jason James
I can also put my fingers down on the edge of the pad-backing plate to get an indication how thick the remaining pad is.

That would depend on the car in question. There'd be many where you can't.

Post by Jason James
**Seriously tho,..the stakes are too high to leave t/stat design the way it is IMHO. It wouldn't to difficult to have a valve in place of the original TS. Make it "fail-safe" [meaning it will stay open when at rest or with no signal to it]. Have the temp sensor supply volts to keep it open. When shut, there will be a small-hole to aid cold-start circulation.

I don't think Thermostats are unreliable enough to warrant their
replacement with anything else. At the end of the day, *nothing* is fool
proof.

[D Walford]

Post by Jason James

On 10/12/12 7:55 AM, Jason James wrote: > A small flow-meter detecting coolant not moving enough, coupled with an over-temp light to keep things cheap. Most cars already have a small over-temp light, and they're usually also fitted with such a flow-meter. It's called a "thermostat" :)

**I like the wear indicator,..as long as you can see it without removing the road-wheel.

Some pads make a noise when they wear down to a certain point.

I can also put my fingers down on the edge of the pad-backing plate to
get an indication how thick the remaining pad is.

Post by Jason James
**Seriously tho,..the stakes are too high to leave t/stat design the way it is IMHO. It wouldn't to difficult to have a valve in place of the original TS. Make it "fail-safe" [meaning it will stay open when at rest or with no signal to it]. Have the temp sensor supply volts to keep it open. When shut, there will be a small-hole to aid cold-start circulation.

The technology that overcomes the problem of overheating already exists
and is already fitted to a lot of cars, ECU detects overheating and
shuts down the engine.


Daryl

[Jason James]

This one is more of a deleted "good engineering practise"

In earlier years, cars like the Renault R16 had an electrode fitted to its brake-pads. Once the pad wore down to replacement time [there was plenty residual pad left, so replacement time was adequate]a light came on.

Dont know why they desisted this idea,..but crucial warning lights for things like oil-pressure and temp, should include brakes.

One light that they could delete, is driver's seat-belt.

Jason

[Noddy]

Post by Jason James
This one is more of a deleted "good engineering practise"
In earlier years, cars like the Renault R16 had an electrode fitted to its brake-pads. Once the pad wore down to replacement time [there was plenty residual pad left, so replacement time was adequate]a light came on.

Pads have wear indicators these days. They achieve the same thing
without having to overly complicate the affair.

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Jason James
This one is more of a deleted "good engineering practise"
In earlier years, cars like the Renault R16 had an electrode fitted to its brake-pads. Once the pad wore down to replacement time [there was plenty residual pad left, so replacement time was adequate]a light came on.

Harumph... My VW disk pad warning was always about 8 months early. I
shorted the bloody things out firstly, then later had the whole module
in the ECU/chassis computer disabled.
They obviously decided all T$ drivers were as rough as guts on the
brakes.

Post by Jason James
Dont know why they desisted this idea,..but crucial warning lights for things like oil-pressure and temp, should include brakes.
One light that they could delete, is driver's seat-belt.

And the chimes... and the fucken chimes...

Post by Jason James
Jason

[Jason James]

Harumph... My VW disk pad warning was always about 8 months early. I shorted the bloody things out firstly, then later had the whole module in the ECU/chassis computer disabled. They obviously decided all T$ drivers were as rough as guts on the brakes.

**I rarely go thru a set of pads in most of my cars. The little R10 used to wear quickly while FIL's Valiant cab used to go in 4 weeks !!

**It seems that you maybe using soft pads?

[. . .]

One light that they could delete, is driver's seat-belt. And the chimes... and the fucken chimes.

**Ohh yeah. The Mazda has a beeping alarm for the doors while the key is in,..and a continuous beep when the lights are left on,..even parkers!

Jason

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Jason James

Harumph... My VW disk pad warning was always about 8 months early. I shorted the bloody things out firstly, then later had the whole module in the ECU/chassis computer disabled. They obviously decided all T$ drivers were as rough as guts on the brakes.

**I rarely go thru a set of pads in most of my cars. The little R10 used to wear quickly while FIL's Valiant cab used to go in 4 weeks !!
**It seems that you maybe using soft pads?

More like hard as the hobs of hell.
On one of the cars here, I had to replace the brake linings because they
had gone hard. Buggered If I know why that happened - they weren't even
1/2 worn.
Nah - I just don't bother thrashing the brakes. Never have.
Been shunted twice in 40 odd years.
But both times my vehicle was stopped and had been so for a considerable
time, so I'm not a noted exponent of negative G's in street driving:-)

Post by Jason James
[. . .]

One light that they could delete, is driver's seat-belt. And the chimes... and the fucken chimes.

**Ohh yeah. The Mazda has a beeping alarm for the doors while the key is in,..and a continuous beep when the lights are left on,..even parkers!
Jason

[Paul Saccani]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:27:37 -0800 (PST), Jason James

Post by Jason James

Harumph... My VW disk pad warning was always about 8 months early. I shorted the bloody things out firstly, then later had the whole module in the ECU/chassis computer disabled. They obviously decided all T$ drivers were as rough as guts on the brakes.

**I rarely go thru a set of pads in most of my cars. The little R10 used to wear quickly while FIL's Valiant cab used to go in 4 weeks !!
**It seems that you maybe using soft pads?
[. . .]

One light that they could delete, is driver's seat-belt. And the chimes... and the fucken chimes.

**Ohh yeah. The Mazda has a beeping alarm for the doors while the key is in,..and a continuous beep when the lights are left on,..even parkers!

For those who think the crash ratings are worthwhile, those features
are worth half a star. So if your crash test reveals 2.5 stars, which
will be reported as 2, you whack the chimes etc... in and you get a
three star rating.

[Noddy]

Post by Paul Saccani
For those who think the crash ratings are worthwhile, those features
are worth half a star. So if your crash test reveals 2.5 stars, which
will be reported as 2, you whack the chimes etc... in and you get a
three star rating.

I can't remember which one it was, but either the Ford Falcon or the
Ford Territory moved from a 4 star to a 5 star rating just by the
inclusion of a front passenger seat belt warning light on the dash. They
did a reasonable job of it in that the passenger's seat has a contactor
that senses someone sitting in it when the ignition is turned on, and if
so it lights up the warning lamp on the dash.

Adding that fancy little gizmo didn't make the car itself one iota
safer, but it moved up a whole level in the ratings. Such is the value
of the present Star rating system.

[Feral]

Post by Noddy
I can't remember which one it was, but either the Ford Falcon or the
Ford Territory moved from a 4 star to a 5 star rating just by the
inclusion of a front passenger seat belt warning light on the dash. They
did a reasonable job of it in that the passenger's seat has a contactor
that senses someone sitting in it when the ignition is turned on, and if
so it lights up the warning lamp on the dash.

So let's see now!

You make the claim.

I say bullshit.

Now you have to back up your claim with evidence.

Is that how it works? ;-)

[Noddy]

Post by Feral
So let's see now!
You make the claim.
I say bullshit.
Now you have to back up your claim with evidence.
Is that how it works? ;-)

Got it in one.

Post by Feral
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Territory#SY_II_.282009.E2.80.932011.29

Still, if you can't be bothered reading through it to find the relevant
piece, I'll quote it for you here:

[Relating to the SYII series of 2009-2011]

"Through the addition of a front passenger seatbelt warning chime due to
be implemented on cars produced from 11 January 2010, the entire
Territory range will be rated the full five-star Australasian New Car
Assessment Program (ANCAP) crash test score. Models produced prior to
this date were previously rated at four stars"

[Blue Heeler]

Post by Noddy

Post by Feral
So let's see now!
You make the claim.
I say bullshit.
Now you have to back up your claim with evidence.
Is that how it works? ;-)

Got it in one.

Post by Feral
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Territory#SY_II_.282009.E2.80.9320
11.29

Still, if you can't be bothered reading through it to find the
[Relating to the SYII series of 2009-2011]
"Through the addition of a front passenger seatbelt warning chime due
to be implemented on cars produced from 11 January 2010, the entire
Territory range will be rated the full five-star Australasian New Car
Assessment Program (ANCAP) crash test score. Models produced prior to
this date were previously rated at four stars"

I wonder if Feral finds the taste of Crow to his liking. Actually, he
probably does on the grounds that even Crow tastes better than his
usual diet of Jonz's butt nuggets.
--

[Noddy]

Post by Blue Heeler
I wonder if Feral finds the taste of Crow to his liking. Actually, he
probably does on the grounds that even Crow tastes better than his
usual diet of Jonz's butt nuggets.

Indeed, although it's worth noting that he's taken to broadening his
culinary horizons by adding liberal helpings of Krypsis shit into the mix.

Yum yum pig's bum.

[D Walford]

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Noddy

Post by Feral
So let's see now!
You make the claim.
I say bullshit.
Now you have to back up your claim with evidence.
Is that how it works? ;-)

Got it in one.

Post by Feral
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Territory#SY_II_.282009.E2.80.9320
11.29

Still, if you can't be bothered reading through it to find the
[Relating to the SYII series of 2009-2011]
"Through the addition of a front passenger seatbelt warning chime due
to be implemented on cars produced from 11 January 2010, the entire
Territory range will be rated the full five-star Australasian New Car
Assessment Program (ANCAP) crash test score. Models produced prior to
this date were previously rated at four stars"

I wonder if Feral finds the taste of Crow to his liking. Actually, he
probably does on the grounds that even Crow tastes better than his
usual diet of Jonz's butt nuggets.

Obviously he hasn't spent a lot of time recently dealing with petty
bureaucrats, not crossing the i's and doting the t's on the accompanying
docs would be enough to loose a couple of stars.


Daryl

[Paul Saccani]

Post by Noddy

Post by Paul Saccani
For those who think the crash ratings are worthwhile, those features
are worth half a star. So if your crash test reveals 2.5 stars, which
will be reported as 2, you whack the chimes etc... in and you get a
three star rating.

I can't remember which one it was, but either the Ford Falcon or the
Ford Territory moved from a 4 star to a 5 star rating just by the
inclusion of a front passenger seat belt warning light on the dash. They
did a reasonable job of it in that the passenger's seat has a contactor
that senses someone sitting in it when the ignition is turned on, and if
so it lights up the warning lamp on the dash.

Typically an air bag is used in the seat. The pressure on the bag
allows a fairly accurate determination of weight using a pressure
sensor, so that small parcels and the like don't set it off.

Post by Noddy
Adding that fancy little gizmo didn't make the car itself one iota
safer, but it moved up a whole level in the ratings. Such is the value
of the present Star rating system.

It is a defect, in my view. Better to allow for a half star, in my
view. I don't think that these devices are in any way worthwhile in
Australia, but to be fair, they would seem to have more utility in
places like the USA where seat belt wearing seems unreasonably low and
has resulted in deliberately compromised engineering to deal with
unbelted occupants.

[Jason James]

**This more of an improvement in engineering after a slack one.

**For a great many years, manufacturers used sintered bronze bushes on the armature of starter-motors and the old DC generator,..now replaced by alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonder who used alt first?]

**Anyway, starters used to wear the rear bush out. The front bearings were a ball-race bearing. This caused *poling* and armature/field-coil damage. Then the Japanese commenced using ball-bearings on both ends, giving a long-life and smooth operation.

**Jason

[John_H]

Post by Jason James
**This more of an improvement in engineering after a slack one.
**For a great many years, manufacturers used sintered bronze bushes on
the armature of starter-motors and the old DC generator,..now replaced by
alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonderwho used alt first?]

They were common on British motorcycles from around 1952!

AFAIK BSA were the first, but not all models... they used a crankshaft
driven rotor with three phase stator and selenium rectifier. Usually
in combination with coil ignition instead of magneto.

[Jason James]

the old DC generator,..now replaced by >alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonderwho used alt first?]

They were common on British motorcycles from around 1952! AFAIK BSA were the first, but not all models... they used a crankshaft driven rotor with three phase stator and selenium rectifier. Usually in combination with coil ignition instead of magneto.

**My bro had a Bantam,..with no battery, so a rectifier was not needed I guess. The BSA you mention must have had a battery? A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification? Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...

**The Bantam's headlight was pretty useless IIRC.


**Jason

[Krypsis]

Post by Jason James

the old DC generator,..now replaced by >alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonderwho used alt first?]

They were common on British motorcycles from around 1952! AFAIK BSA were the first, but not all models... they used a crankshaft driven rotor with three phase stator and selenium rectifier. Usually in combination with coil ignition instead of magneto.

**My bro had a Bantam,..with no battery, so a rectifier was not needed I guess. The BSA you mention must have had a battery? A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification? Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...
**The Bantam's headlight was pretty useless IIRC.
**Jason

4 diodes in a diode bridge arrangement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge

Alternators have 6 because they are basically a three phase arrangement,
two for each phase.

[Jason James]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 2:30:26 PM UTC+11, Krypsis wrot

Post by Krypsis
4 diodes in a diode bridge arrangement.

**Doesnt make sense as you mentioned a 3 winding field :-)

Post by Krypsis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge Alternators have 6 because they are baically a three phase arrangement, two for each phase.

**Which is what I said. It's possible they ran a larger field using 1/2 wave rectification,...but I doubt it.

**Jason

[Jason James]

This one was on a Renault R10. The french used steel in their road-wheels which apart from having only 3 securing wheel-nuts, were made either out of very thin steel, or low carbon steel,..as *everytime* you clipped the centre-island,..you'd dent the rim, and also fuck the Michelin X tire-wall. The Michies were only 2-ply in the walls, and they'd cut very easily,..totally unacceptable. The other fault in those cars were the piss-weak engine/transaxle mounts. I drove over a slit-trench which wasnt filled in properly,. across the road once. The rear-wheels [this car was rear-engined] stuck in the trench for long enough to ram the fan into the radiator,..kid you not.

**Jason

[Krypsis]

Post by Jason James
On Tuesday, December 11, 2012 2:30:26 PM UTC+11, Krypsis wrot

Post by Krypsis
4 diodes in a diode bridge arrangement.

**Doesnt make sense as you mentioned a 3 winding field :-)

Post by Krypsis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge Alternators have 6 because they are baically a three phase arrangement, two for each phase.

**Which is what I said. It's possible they ran a larger field using 1/2 wave rectification,...but I doubt it.
**Jason

Depends on where you put the diode bridge. On the alternator of a car,
they are on each phase.
The Bantam's coil, I suspect, would be a simpler arrangement.

[Jason James]

Depends on where you put the diode bridge. On the alternator of a car, they are on each phase. The Bantam's coil, I suspect, would be a simpler arrangement.

**You probably know this diagram,..scroll down to close to the bottom of the screen side-bar wise. This diag is nigh near universal today.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics

**Jason

[John_H]

Post by Jason James

the old DC generator,..now replaced by >alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonderwho used alt first?]

They were common on British motorcycles from around 1952! AFAIK BSA were the first, but not all models... they used a crankshaft driven rotor with three phase stator and selenium rectifier. Usually in combination with coil ignition instead of magneto.

**My bro had a Bantam,..with no battery, so a rectifier was not
needed I guess. The BSA you mention must have had a battery?

The Bantam would've almost certainly had a flywheel magneto with
straight ac running the lights.

Post by Jason James
A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification?
Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...

Same as silicon diode only provides half wave rectification!
It's an awfully long time ago but IIRC the selenium rectifiers were
the equivalent of a bridge rectifier (4 diodes and 4 terminals).

Post by Jason James
**The Bantam's headlight was pretty useless IIRC.

See above.

[Feral]

Post by John_H

Post by Jason James

the old DC generator,..now replaced by >alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonderwho used alt first?]

They were common on British motorcycles from around 1952! AFAIK BSA were the first, but not all models... they used a crankshaft driven rotor with three phase stator and selenium rectifier. Usually in combination with coil ignition instead of magneto.

**My bro had a Bantam,..with no battery, so a rectifier was not
needed I guess. The BSA you mention must have had a battery?

The Bantam would've almost certainly had a flywheel magneto with
straight ac running the lights.

Post by Jason James
A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification?
Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...

Same as silicon diode only provides half wave rectification!
It's an awfully long time ago but IIRC the selenium rectifiers were
the equivalent of a bridge rectifier (4 diodes and 4 terminals).

Post by Jason James
**The Bantam's headlight was pretty useless IIRC.

See above.

Here ya go. Page 34.

Post by John_H
http://www.ozbsabantamshop.com.au/d1d7.pdf

[Jason James]

Post by Jason James

The BSA you mention must have had a battery? The Bantam would've almost certainly had a flywheel magneto with straight ac running the lights.
A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification? > Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...

Same as silicon diode only provides half wave rectification! It's an awfully long time ago but IIRC the selenium rectifiers were the equivalent of a bridge rectifier (4 diodes and 4 terminals).

*Someone said the Bantam had a star sec-winding, similar to todays car alts field. In which case the need for a 6 diode rectifier. Three phase and all that....4 diode bridges are for single 2 wire AC outputs.

Post by Jason James
**The Bantam's headlight was pretty useless IIRC.

** Aye,...See above.

Jason

[Paul Saccani]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 00:11:44 -0800 (PST), Jason James

Post by Jason James
*Someone said the Bantam had a star sec-winding,

That makes no sense.

Post by Jason James
similar to todays car alts field.

Definitely not.

Post by Jason James
In which case the need for a 6 diode rectifier. Three phase and all that

Absolutely not the case.

Post by Jason James
....4 diode bridges are for single 2 wire AC outputs.

Never heard of two phase, I take it? ;)

[Jason James]

Post by Paul Saccani

Post by Jason James
Someone said the Bantam had a star sec-winding,

That makes no sense.

**OK,..

Post by Paul Saccani

Post by Jason James
similar to todays car alts field.

Definitely not.

Post by Jason James
In which case the need for a 6 diode rectifier. Three phase and all that

Absolutely not the case.

**OK

Post by Paul Saccani

Post by Jason James
4 diode bridges are for single 2 wire AC outputs.

Never heard of two phase, I take it? ;)

**No,...but I have no problem with the idea.

**Jason

[Paul Saccani]

Post by John_H

Post by Jason James
A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification?
Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...

Same as silicon diode only provides half wave rectification!
It's an awfully long time ago but IIRC the selenium rectifiers were
the equivalent of a bridge rectifier (4 diodes and 4 terminals).

Indeed they were.

[Paul Saccani]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:50:51 -0800 (PST), Jason James

Post by Jason James

the old DC generator,..now replaced by >alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonderwho used alt first?]

They were common on British motorcycles from around 1952! AFAIK BSA were the first, but not all models... they used a crankshaft driven rotor with three phase stator and selenium rectifier. Usually in combination with coil ignition instead of magneto.

**My bro had a Bantam,..with no battery, so a rectifier was not needed I guess. The BSA you mention must have had a battery? A selinium rectifier would be only half-wave rectification? Otherwise you'd need 6 diodes...

They were usually a full wave pack, and you only needed four diodes.

[Paul Saccani]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:21:07 -0800 (PST), Jason James

Post by Jason James
**This more of an improvement in engineering after a slack one.
**For a great many years, manufacturers used sintered bronze bushes on the armature of starter-motors and the old DC generator,..now replaced by alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonder who used alt first?]

Now replaced in *most* applications. Alternators are no good as
Starter/Generators, so if that is what is needed, a dynamo will be
used as the generator. Alternators have been around for quite a while
- the real issue was rectification, which had to wait for reasonable
solid state rectifier diodes. Still, a lot (but very much a
minority) of motor vehicles used an alternator for lighting, with
selenium rectifiers for battery charging - if a battery was used at
all.

For a crank start car with magneto ignition, there was no real need
for rectification. But once electric start came into vogue,
alternators usage reduced considerably for several decades, except in
motorcycles.

[Jason James]

Now replaced in *most* applications. Alternators are no good as Starter/Generators,

**Didnt mean to imply they were :-)

so if that is what is needed, a dynamo will be used as the generator. Alternators have been around for quite a while - the real issue was rectification, which had to wait for reasonable solid state rectifier diodes.

**While Selenium rectifiers are quite hardy,.their front to back ratio is a little low, giving lower volts out after summing(?) unlike Silicon or Germanium. [Yep there were Ge power-diodes]

[. . .]

**Jason

[Blue Heeler]

Now replaced in most applications. Alternators are no good as
Starter/Generators,

Having had the misfortune to own an English motorcycle afflicted with a
dynamotor it is my sincere hope that such things are permanently
exhibited in the museum of really bad ideas and that any engineer that
proposes their resurrection is covered with honey and staked out naked
over an ant's nest.


PS


In the 70/80's Honda brought out a light delivery vehicle which aside
from their use of a dynanmotor starter/generator were a simply
brilliant way of moving light bulky loads around.


Honda's effort stands as absolute proof of the proposiiton that if
honda engineers couldn't make an idea work, it was an idea not worht
having.

[Jason James]

Having had the misfortune to own an English motorcycle afflicted with a dynamotor it is my sincere hope that such things are permanently exhibited in the museum of really bad ideas and that any engineer that proposes their resurrection is covered with honey and staked out naked over an ant's nest.

** Gotta love pomme engineering. The wierd part is, they can make some really good stuff *when they wanted too*. Take the Spitfire and Hurricane fighters,..or the Mini. Absolutely brilliant efforts. The Landcrab was the perfect family car except perhaps for a little more HP,..cue the Kimberly 6 [or Tasman]. I used to take the family [5 of us] to Sydney for Xmas. Fully loaded and 30 mpg.

PS In the 70/80's Honda brought out a light delivery vehicle which aside from their use of a dynanmotor starter/generator were a simply brilliant way of moving light bulky loads around. Honda's effort stands as absolute proof of the proposiiton that if honda engineers couldn't make an idea work, it was an idea not worht having.

**Sounds it. I would even now, love to own a motor-cycle, but the better-half **will not** hear of it.

**Jason

[Blue Heeler]

Post by Jason James
** Gotta love pomme engineering. The wierd part is, they can make
some really good stuff *when they wanted too*. Take the Spitfire and
Hurricane fighters,..or the Mini.

The hurricaNE was not a particularly brilliant performer, what it had
going for it was that it was an excellent gun platform and had a
structure strong enought to do just about anything to - rocket launched
fighter, bomber, offensive rockets, they even hung a pair of 40mm
Bofors guns under them and used them as a tank buster.


The "key" to both was the Merlin which had just enough power, was
almost reliable enough and had a small (for its power) frontal area.
Let me tell you though, it took Packard to turn it into somethign
capable of mass-production with a reasonable service life and
reliability, and even then, compared to a modern engine, they are a
prick of a thing to work on. I have bolted up two of the damm things,
one as a static display and one as a "runner" - there is not enough
beer in the world to persuade me to ever touch another. To give you an
example - the ancillary oil distribution system is a series of straight
and bent alloy pipes that fit (loosely) into a number of alloy castings
that are mounted on whatever it is that needs oiling. This system was
touted as (and to be truthfull probably was) a major advance over the
system of bent and brazed pipe used in previous RR efforts.

BUT, for pity's sake do not even think about using a modern sealant to
seal up the leaks that pour from every joint - RR intended the leaks so
that stuff nearby would get an oil bath - really important things like
accessory drive skew gears, water pump drive etc.

And the amount of rubber hose......my GOD no wonder the bastard things
had virtually no civilian use (I think Canadian "North Stars" (DC-4 but
with Merlins) were about the only user - and then only after a huge
re-design effort to reduce the amount of external hose and pipe work).




--

[D Walford]

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Jason James
** Gotta love pomme engineering. The wierd part is, they can make
some really good stuff *when they wanted too*. Take the Spitfire and
Hurricane fighters,..or the Mini.

The hurricaNE was not a particularly brilliant performer, what it had
going for it was that it was an excellent gun platform and had a
structure strong enought to do just about anything to - rocket launched
fighter, bomber, offensive rockets, they even hung a pair of 40mm
Bofors guns under them and used them as a tank buster.
The "key" to both was the Merlin which had just enough power, was
almost reliable enough and had a small (for its power) frontal area.
Let me tell you though, it took Packard to turn it into somethign
capable of mass-production with a reasonable service life and
reliability, and even then, compared to a modern engine, they are a
prick of a thing to work on. I have bolted up two of the damm things,
one as a static display and one as a "runner" - there is not enough
beer in the world to persuade me to ever touch another. To give you an
example - the ancillary oil distribution system is a series of straight
and bent alloy pipes that fit (loosely) into a number of alloy castings
that are mounted on whatever it is that needs oiling. This system was
touted as (and to be truthfull probably was) a major advance over the
system of bent and brazed pipe used in previous RR efforts.
BUT, for pity's sake do not even think about using a modern sealant to
seal up the leaks that pour from every joint - RR intended the leaks so
that stuff nearby would get an oil bath - really important things like
accessory drive skew gears, water pump drive etc.
And the amount of rubber hose......my GOD no wonder the bastard things
had virtually no civilian use (I think Canadian "North Stars" (DC-4 but
with Merlins) were about the only user - and then only after a huge
re-design effort to reduce the amount of external hose and pipe work).

I've never put a spanner on one but every time I've had a good look at a
Merlin I think that they look like a nightmare to work on so your
comments make a lot of sense:-)


Daryl

[Noddy]

Post by Blue Heeler
The hurricaNE was not a particularly brilliant performer, what it had
going for it was that it was an excellent gun platform and had a
structure strong enought to do just about anything to - rocket launched
fighter, bomber, offensive rockets, they even hung a pair of 40mm
Bofors guns under them and used them as a tank buster.

It actually accounted for more enemy planes in the Battle of Britain
than the Spitfire, but as you say it's performance was average. The
Spitfire was by all accounts an absolutely wonderful aircraft to fly and
the much better dogfighter.

I tend to think of the Hurricane as the HQ Ute of the Royal Air Force:
Not particularly pretty or an excellent performer, but it was tough and
reliable and could carry a decent load.

Post by Blue Heeler
The "key" to both was the Merlin which had just enough power, was
almost reliable enough and had a small (for its power) frontal area.
Let me tell you though, it took Packard to turn it into somethign
capable of mass-production with a reasonable service life and
reliability, and even then, compared to a modern engine, they are a
prick of a thing to work on. I have bolted up two of the damm things,
one as a static display and one as a "runner" - there is not enough
beer in the world to persuade me to ever touch another. To give you an
example - the ancillary oil distribution system is a series of straight
and bent alloy pipes that fit (loosely) into a number of alloy castings
that are mounted on whatever it is that needs oiling. This system was
touted as (and to be truthfull probably was) a major advance over the
system of bent and brazed pipe used in previous RR efforts.

I imagine when the first engine was ever crated up and sent to Packard
for evaluation, the reaction of their research and development guys must
have been "What the fuck?" :)

Post by Blue Heeler
BUT, for pity's sake do not even think about using a modern sealant to
seal up the leaks that pour from every joint - RR intended the leaks so
that stuff nearby would get an oil bath - really important things like
accessory drive skew gears, water pump drive etc.
And the amount of rubber hose......my GOD no wonder the bastard things
had virtually no civilian use (I think Canadian "North Stars" (DC-4 but
with Merlins) were about the only user - and then only after a huge
re-design effort to reduce the amount of external hose and pipe work).

Heh :)

A lot of the things ended up powering speed boats, and I used to know an
old guy who mucked around with them in the 1970's & 80's. He was an ex
RAAF ground crew who was was the "crew chief" on the Bayswater Bulk
hydroplane. It had a lot of famous grudge match races with the "Miss
Budweiser" hydroplane from the US, and they used to go through Merlin
parts like nobody's business.

The Bayswater Bulk hydroplane was kept and maintained in a small shed in
Coburg in those days, and I had a few entertaining visits with the bloke
who looked after the engines. In those days they had about 5 runners,
and another half dozen or so that were parts donors. The runners were
heavily modified for use in the boats, and even though they made a
decent amount of power in those days (about 2500hp I think) the old guy
still thought the things were a heap of shit of an engine and he'd been
specialising in the things for 40 years.

[Paul Saccani]

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Jason James
** Gotta love pomme engineering. The wierd part is, they can make
some really good stuff *when they wanted too*. Take the Spitfire and
Hurricane fighters,..or the Mini.

The hurricaNE was not a particularly brilliant performer, what it had
going for it was that it was an excellent gun platform and had a
structure strong enought to do just about anything to - rocket launched
fighter, bomber, offensive rockets, they even hung a pair of 40mm
Bofors guns under them and used them as a tank buster.

I'm pretty sure they were Vickers S guns, not Bofors. This was based
on the 2 pounder "Pom Pom", and a long recoil design which made it
well suited to platforms not well able to handle recoil, like
aircraft.

They also used the Rolls-Royce 2 pounder Mk IV in limited numbers, but
this was generally unsuccessful.

Besides the recoil issues, the Bofors did not have a suitable feed
mechanism for aircraft use.

[Krypsis]

Post by Jason James

Having had the misfortune to own an English motorcycle afflicted with a dynamotor it is my sincere hope that such things are permanently exhibited in the museum of really bad ideas and that any engineer that proposes their resurrection is covered with honey and staked out naked over an ant's nest.

** Gotta love pomme engineering. The wierd part is, they can make some really good stuff *when they wanted too*. Take the Spitfire and Hurricane fighters,..or the Mini. Absolutely brilliant efforts. The Landcrab was the perfect family car except perhaps for a little more HP,..cue the Kimberly 6 [or Tasman]. I used to take the family [5 of us] to Sydney for Xmas. Fully loaded and 30 mpg.

PS In the 70/80's Honda brought out a light delivery vehicle which aside from their use of a dynanmotor starter/generator were a simply brilliant way of moving light bulky loads around. Honda's effort stands as absolute proof of the proposiiton that if honda engineers couldn't make an idea work, it was an idea not worht having.

**Sounds it. I would even now, love to own a motor-cycle, but the better-half **will not** hear of it.
**Jason

Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

[Blue Heeler]

Post by Krypsis
Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

--

[atec77]

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Krypsis
Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

[Jason James]

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old bones aren't as agile :-(

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)

**Jason

[D Walford]

Post by Jason James

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old bones aren't as agile :-(

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)

Not even close, try flying a helicopter at very low altitude around a
golf course.
Don't know if I'd describe my first attempt at hovering as fun but the
instructor thought it was, he was laughing so much at me shitting myself
I thought he was going to fall out the door:-)

Daryl

[atec77]

Post by D Walford

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler
Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old
bones aren't as agile :-(

Post by atec77
Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)

Not even close, try flying a helicopter at very low altitude around a
golf course.
Don't know if I'd describe my first attempt at hovering as fun but the
instructor thought it was, he was laughing so much at me shitting myself
I thought he was going to fall out the door:-)
Daryl

I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

[jonz]

Post by atec77

Post by D Walford

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler
Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old
bones aren't as agile :-(

Post by atec77
Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with
your clothes on :-)

Not even close, try flying a helicopter at very low altitude around a
golf course.
Don't know if I'd describe my first attempt at hovering as fun but the
instructor thought it was, he was laughing so much at me shitting myself
I thought he was going to fall out the door:-)
Daryl

I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

~~~~~~~~~
:-p

[Noddy]

Post by atec77
I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

Jesus... From the guy who's IQ rates on a par with a used left thong. If
anyone gets laughed at around here dickhead, "we" know how it is.

[jonz]

Post by Noddy

Post by atec77
I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

Jesus... From the guy who's IQ rates on a par with a used left thong. If
anyone gets laughed at around here dickhead, "we" know how it is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
YOU!!!! are spruicking IQ?.......<PFFFTT>

[Krypsis]

Post by Noddy

Post by atec77
I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

Jesus... From the guy who's IQ rates on a par with a used left thong. If
anyone gets laughed at around here dickhead, "we" know how it is.

Well, that's what he said Noddy! You know how it is... your words, not mine.

[atec77]

Post by Krypsis

Post by Noddy

Post by atec77
I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

Jesus... From the guy who's IQ rates on a par with a used left thong. If
anyone gets laughed at around here dickhead, "we" know how it is.

Well, that's what he said Noddy! You know how it is... your words, not mine.

Another shatteringly unintelligible wanna be keyboard warrior bighead post
Reminds me of a certain hunchback as he swung from bell to bell

issuing a supremely snot covered urrggggg

[jonz]

Post by atec77

Post by Krypsis

Post by Noddy

Post by atec77
I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

Jesus... From the guy who's IQ rates on a par with a used left thong. If
anyone gets laughed at around here dickhead, "we" know how it is.

Well, that's what he said Noddy! You know how it is... your words, not mine.

Another shatteringly unintelligible wanna be keyboard warrior bighead post
Reminds me of a certain hunchback as he swung from bell to bell
issuing a supremely snot covered urrggggg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<VBG>

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by atec77

Post by Krypsis

Post by Noddy

Post by atec77
I can understand him laughing at you dazzle , we do often

Jesus... From the guy who's IQ rates on a par with a used left thong. If
anyone gets laughed at around here dickhead, "we" know how it is.

Well, that's what he said Noddy! You know how it is... your words, not mine.

Another shatteringly unintelligible wanna be keyboard warrior bighead post
Reminds me of a certain hunchback as he swung from bell to bell
issuing a supremely snot covered urrggggg

Careful, your cultya is showing..

[Noddy]

Post by atec77
Another shatteringly unintelligible wanna be keyboard warrior bighead post
Reminds me of a certain hunchback as he swung from bell to bell
issuing a supremely snot covered urrggggg

I honestly don't know who's the bigger retarded cockspank around here.
You or Jonz.

[Noddy]

Post by Krypsis
Well, that's what he said Noddy! You know how it is... your words, not mine.

Presumably "Pot calling the kettle black" is a phrase you're unfamiliar
with.

[atec77]

Post by Jason James

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old bones aren't as agile :-(

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)
**Jason

It can be fun but the neighbours toy car leaves a bike for dead , two
doors and keeps the weather out

[Krypsis]

Post by atec77

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler
Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old
bones aren't as agile :-(

Post by atec77
Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)
**Jason

It can be fun but the neighbours toy car leaves a bike for dead , two
doors and keeps the weather out

What sort of toy car??

[Blue Heeler]

Post by Krypsis

Post by atec77
It can be fun but the neighbours toy car leaves a bike for dead ,
two doors and keeps the weather out

What sort of toy car??

An imaginary one.
--

[jonz]

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Krypsis

Post by atec77
It can be fun but the neighbours toy car leaves a bike for dead ,
two doors and keeps the weather out

What sort of toy car??

An imaginary one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
HIM not you,,,,dorkus.

[Blue Heeler]

Post by jonz

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Krypsis

Post by atec77
It can be fun but the neighbours toy car leaves a bike for dead
, two doors and keeps the weather out

What sort of toy car??

An imaginary one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
HIM not you,,,,dorkus.

Go hump the cat Jonz, the adults are talking.

[Noddy]

Post by Krypsis
What sort of toy car??

One he's trying to make up as we speak.

[atec77]

Post by Krypsis

Post by atec77

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler
Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old
bones aren't as agile :-(

Post by atec77
Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with
your clothes on :-)
**Jason

It can be fun but the neighbours toy car leaves a bike for dead , two
doors and keeps the weather out

What sort of toy car??

hand built powered by a blown v12 , all alloy and certainly a different
concept

[Noddy]

Post by atec77
hand built powered by a blown v12 , all alloy and certainly a different
concept

Sure Baz.

[Krypsis]

Post by Jason James

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old bones aren't as agile :-(

We had our roof repaired recently. The roofer was telling me that
balance becomes an issue once you hit 50. I'd believe it. I stopped
climbing up on rooves when I hit about 60 because I didn't feel as
balanced and secure as I once did.

Post by Jason James

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)
**Jason

I agree with you on motor bikes being the best fun. Trouble is, that
sort of fun is best appreciated when you're young. As you get older, you
worry way too much about such trivialities as, say, mortality! ;-)

[F Murtz]

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler
Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old
bones aren't as agile :-(

We had our roof repaired recently. The roofer was telling me that
balance becomes an issue once you hit 50. I'd believe it. I stopped
climbing up on rooves when I hit about 60 because I didn't feel as
balanced and secure as I once did.

So at 70 I should not climb 20 foot ladders up a tree to put a chain on
to make the tree fall the way I want and I should not ride my 30 year
old 1000cc motor cycle any more.

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77
Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)
**Jason

I agree with you on motor bikes being the best fun. Trouble is, that
sort of fun is best appreciated when you're young. As you get older, you
worry way too much about such trivialities as, say, mortality! ;-)

[Krypsis]

Post by F Murtz

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler
Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old
bones aren't as agile :-(

We had our roof repaired recently. The roofer was telling me that
balance becomes an issue once you hit 50. I'd believe it. I stopped
climbing up on rooves when I hit about 60 because I didn't feel as
balanced and secure as I once did.

So at 70 I should not climb 20 foot ladders up a tree to put a chain on
to make the tree fall the way I want and I should not ride my 30 year
old 1000cc motor cycle any more.

Well, it doesn't seem to affect everyone equally. A tree lopper in this
area, name of Lance, was 65 and climbing trees like a monkey. Haven't
seen him for quite a while now but he was a wiry bugger, had been in the
game since he was a lad, so probably could keep doing the job into his
80s. Wouldn't surprise me if he's still out there lopping trees.

Post by F Murtz

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James

Post by atec77
Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with
your clothes on :-)
**Jason

I agree with you on motor bikes being the best fun. Trouble is, that
sort of fun is best appreciated when you're young. As you get older, you
worry way too much about such trivialities as, say, mortality! ;-)

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Jason James

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old bones aren't as agile :-(

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)
**Jason

Glad you ( and many others) think so.
Track, and off road - fine.
Seen too much stupid stuff from the 4 wheels+ brigade to entertain the
notion of sharing ANY road-space with them with me on 2 wheels.
BTW, more than a few of the +50 types riding for enjoyment round these
parts would best consider giving it up and going lawn bowling for shits
and giggles.
Is it that they NEVER had a fucken clue about riding safely?
Maybe they should all buy Crutchrockets and go play at the track or
somethin'.

[Noddy]

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Glad you ( and many others) think so.
Track, and off road - fine.
Seen too much stupid stuff from the 4 wheels+ brigade to entertain the
notion of sharing ANY road-space with them with me on 2 wheels.
BTW, more than a few of the +50 types riding for enjoyment round these
parts would best consider giving it up and going lawn bowling for shits
and giggles.

You drive a courier van don't you Tobes? :)

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Is it that they NEVER had a fucken clue about riding safely?
Maybe they should all buy Crutchrockets and go play at the track or
somethin'.

Maybe.

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Noddy

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Glad you ( and many others) think so.
Track, and off road - fine.
Seen too much stupid stuff from the 4 wheels+ brigade to entertain the
notion of sharing ANY road-space with them with me on 2 wheels.
BTW, more than a few of the +50 types riding for enjoyment round these
parts would best consider giving it up and going lawn bowling for shits
and giggles.

You drive a courier van don't you Tobes? :)

I supersized...
Now I can't see the buggers on bikes at all unless they risk life and
limb showing me a mirror or a shoulder in my mirror occasionally:-)

Getting a Camera or three to cope with that.
Maybe a scrolling sign that tells imbeciles trying to hide to get to
fuck outa there would help, too.

It's not just the bikes, either - cloth-eared bints in
Fuck-on-four-wheels toy cars pull the same stupid stunts. They're Waay
more agro than the bike riders, too. Because they're waay more stupid, I
guess.
Just wish we had more wet weather to keep those cars off the road and in
the panel shops, is all.

Post by Noddy

Post by Toby Ponsenby
Is it that they NEVER had a fucken clue about riding safely?
Maybe they should all buy Crutchrockets and go play at the track or
somethin'.

Maybe.

Nah, Defo!! :-)
They'd have a heap more fun, too.

[D Walford]

Post by Toby Ponsenby

Post by Jason James

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the throttle closes as well as opens.

**Too true,..but I have noticed when riding even a bicycle, the old bones aren't as agile :-(

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made recently in the courier

**No doubt,..but riding a motor-bike is the best fun you'll have with your clothes on :-)
**Jason

Glad you ( and many others) think so.
Track, and off road - fine.
Seen too much stupid stuff from the 4 wheels+ brigade to entertain the
notion of sharing ANY road-space with them with me on 2 wheels.
BTW, more than a few of the +50 types riding for enjoyment round these
parts would best consider giving it up and going lawn bowling for shits
and giggles.
Is it that they NEVER had a fucken clue about riding safely?
Maybe they should all buy Crutchrockets and go play at the track or
somethin'.

Not just +50 people, my oldest son and quite few of his mates have owned
road bikes but almost all have sold them and now only ride off road and
its because none feel safe on the road.


Daryl

[Krypsis]

Post by atec77

Post by Blue Heeler

Post by Krypsis
Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

Rubbish - go for it. Those over 50 are wise enough to know that the
throttle closes as well as opens.

Older new riders or those who return over 50 are the current highest
motor cycle injury rate apart from under 22 year olds , claim made
recently in the courier

Reflexes are slower...

Had bikes when I was a lot younger, had the close shaves too. Don't need
to succumb to a mid life crisis at my age! I'm well past it!

[Noddy]

Post by Krypsis
Had bikes when I was a lot younger, had the close shaves too. Don't need
to succumb to a mid life crisis at my age! I'm well past it!

Thanks Captain Obvious :)

[Jason James]

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James
I would even now, love to own a motor-cycle, but the better-half **will not** hear of it.

Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

**Too true Kryp,...but jeeze,.. riding even a RD350 Yammi 2 stroke,..used to clear the cobwebs outa my semi-senile brain :-)

**Just lerve a goey 2 stroke bike :-)

**Jason

[jonz]

Post by Jason James

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James
I would even now, love to own a motor-cycle, but the better-half **will not** hear of it.

Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

**Too true Kryp,...but jeeze,.. riding even a RD350 Yammi 2 stroke,..used to clear the cobwebs outa my semi-senile brain :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Possessing a death wish is a requirement for riding one of them 8-p

Post by Jason James
**Just lerve a goey 2 stroke bike :-)
**Jason

[Krypsis]

Post by jonz

Post by Jason James

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James
I would even now, love to own a motor-cycle, but the better-half
**will not** hear of it.

Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

**Too true Kryp,...but jeeze,.. riding even a RD350 Yammi 2
stroke,..used to clear the cobwebs outa my semi-senile brain :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Possessing a death wish is a requirement for riding one of them 8-p

Post by Jason James
**Just lerve a goey 2 stroke bike :-)
**Jason

yes, for a 350, they were gutsy little beasts.

[Krypsis]

Post by Jason James

Post by Krypsis

Post by Jason James
I would even now, love to own a motor-cycle, but the better-half **will not** hear of it.

Wise move. Old bones break more easily and take much longer to knit!

**Too true Kryp,...but jeeze,.. riding even a RD350 Yammi 2 stroke,..used to clear the cobwebs outa my semi-senile brain :-)
**Just lerve a goey 2 stroke bike :-)
**Jason

yes, agree. Way back, I used to head up country NSW to my cousins place
out on the road to Bourke. A couple of the chaps up there had Suzuki 750
water bottles. They were nice beasts. One put a 3 into 1 exhaust on his
and did it ever sharpen up that power band. A really noticeable increase
in power albeit at the expense of the wide power band. The power band
was narrow and came on suddenly. If you weren't alert, it had a tendency
to lift the front and try and spit you off the back.

[Jordan]

Post by Blue Heeler
Having had the misfortune to own an English motorcycle afflicted with a
dynamotor it is my sincere hope that such things are permanently
exhibited in the museum of really bad ideas

Sounds like you had a bad one, but I don't think motor/dynamos were such
a bad thing. They were an effective solution at the time.
Several motorcycles and scooters, and some cars had them (e.g. Lightburn
Zeta, Goggomobil).
My Heinkel Tourist scooter had a Bosch one which never gave trouble.
Same for my Rabbit Superflow (Hitachi?).
MV 4 cylinder motorbikes in the 70s used them, to provide starting on a
basically racing engine (no complex starter engagement arrangement
needed - just a belt).

Electric cars with regenerative braking are a similar idea - they can
motor as well make electricity.

I think R series Valiants were the first cars sold in Australia with
alternators.

Bicycles had alternators that rubbed against the wheel.

I think it's cute that alternators with worn out brushes don't make the
charge warning light come on.
Similarly, temperature sensors that don't sense overheating when the
water level drops below them. Shouldn't they be mounted low down?

[Noddy]

Post by Jordan
Sounds like you had a bad one, but I don't think motor/dynamos were such
a bad thing. They were an effective solution at the time.

They were pretty much the *only* solution at the time, but that doesn't
mean they were great. Years ago the "cure" for homosexuality used to be
death by hanging. Some might argue that it "took care of it", but it
wasn't really the best option out there :)

Post by Jordan
I think it's cute that alternators with worn out brushes don't make the
charge warning light come on.

Most cars will display a warning light if the alternator isn't charging
properly.

Post by Jordan
Similarly, temperature sensors that don't sense overheating when the
water level drops below them. Shouldn't they be mounted low down?

They're mounted up high because that's the hottest part of the engine.
Mounting them low will read the temperature at the coldest part which
really isn't much help.

Most modern cars have coolant *level* sensors to warn the driver when
coolant drops to a certain level, and there are after-market kits
available that can be retro-fitted to older vehicles.

[Paul Saccani]

Post by Blue Heeler

Now replaced in most applications. Alternators are no good as
Starter/Generators,

Having had the misfortune to own an English motorcycle afflicted with a
dynamotor it is my sincere hope that such things are permanently
exhibited in the museum of really bad ideas and that any engineer that
proposes their resurrection is covered with honey and staked out naked
over an ant's nest.

Lucas doesn't count. ;) Properly engineered starter generators still
get a lot of use, particularly in light aviation jet engines and APUs.

Post by Blue Heeler
PS
In the 70/80's Honda brought out a light delivery vehicle which aside
from their use of a dynanmotor starter/generator were a simply
brilliant way of moving light bulky loads around.
Honda's effort stands as absolute proof of the proposiiton that if
honda engineers couldn't make an idea work, it was an idea not worht
having.

Heh! Still, they are being more widely used in automotive
applications for hybrid electric drive trains and the like.

I have seen some awful implementations, but when done properly, they
seem to work OK.

[Buzz^|]

Post by Paul Saccani
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:21:07 -0800 (PST), Jason James

Post by Jason James
**This more of an improvement in engineering after a slack one.
**For a great many years, manufacturers used sintered bronze bushes

on the armature of starter-motors and the old DC generator,..now replaced

by alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonder who used
alt first?]

Post by Paul Saccani
Now replaced in *most* applications. Alternators are no good as
Starter/Generators, so if that is what is needed, a dynamo will be
used as the generator. Alternators have been around for quite a while
- the real issue was rectification, which had to wait for reasonable
solid state rectifier diodes. Still, a lot (but very much a
minority) of motor vehicles used an alternator for lighting, with
selenium rectifiers for battery charging - if a battery was used at
all.
For a crank start car with magneto ignition, there was no real need
for rectification. But once electric start came into vogue,
alternators usage reduced considerably for several decades, except in
motorcycles.

the old man's 1917 "T" had a battery. Crank starting on the magneto was
a lot harder but it could be done. ( http://tinyurl.com/cq9eucs for some
stories of how hard crank starting can be.) Those horse shoe magnets
were cool to muck around with as kids. Hard disk magnets are great fun
now. Put one in a little car and the other under the table top, it the
table isn't too thick you can "Drive" the car around, great to make a
kid think their toy car they have owned for ages is electric and they
didn't know it.

[Toby Ponsenby]

Post by Jason James

Post by Paul Saccani
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:21:07 -0800 (PST), Jason James

Post by Jason James
**This more of an improvement in engineering after a slack one.
**For a great many years, manufacturers used sintered bronze bushes

on the armature of starter-motors and the old DC generator,..now replaced
by alternators. [which inself is a great improvement,..wonder who used
alt first?]

Post by Paul Saccani
Now replaced in *most* applications. Alternators are no good as
Starter/Generators, so if that is what is needed, a dynamo will be
used as the generator. Alternators have been around for quite a while
- the real issue was rectification, which had to wait for reasonable
solid state rectifier diodes. Still, a lot (but very much a
minority) of motor vehicles used an alternator for lighting, with
selenium rectifiers for battery charging - if a battery was used at
all.
For a crank start car with magneto ignition, there was no real need
for rectification. But once electric start came into vogue,
alternators usage reduced considerably for several decades, except in
motorcycles.

the old man's 1917 "T" had a battery. Crank starting on the magneto was
a lot harder but it could be done. ( http://tinyurl.com/cq9eucs for some
stories of how hard crank starting can be.) Those horse shoe magnets
were cool to muck around with as kids. Hard disk magnets are great fun
now. Put one in a little car and the other under the table top, it the
table isn't too thick you can "Drive" the car around, great to make a
kid think their toy car they have owned for ages is electric and they
didn't know it.

I have 24 HDD's waiting for magnet retrieval ATM.
Yeah, I know - getalife:-)

[Albm&ctd]

Post by Jason James
** Some engines back in the pushrod days, used a really strange way of stopping cam end-float. Specifically using the the Hemi 6s as an example>> Prior to Chrysler fitting an end-float control-blade [on the CM] which engaged a groove machined on the extended cam front bearing journal.
**Prior, it wasnt unusual to get a noise after a few years,.. which was the cam-sprocket fouling on the timing-cover. Why did this happen? Mainly thru lifter-base and cam-lobe wear. New, the cam was stopped floating forward by the slightly angled rearwards, lobes. The lifters were concave at the base, and this stopped the cam moving,...untill one thing happened, i.e. the lifter base wore flat or convex [which caused early lobe-shoulder wear] thereby removing any reverse

loading.

Post by Jason James
** Strange,...but true :-)
**Jason

There was a simple but rather crude fix for that.

Al

[Jason James]

Post by Albm&ctd

The lifters were concave at the base, and this stopped the cam moving,...untill one thing happened, i.e. the lifter base wore flat or convex [which caused early lobe-shoulder wear] thereby removing any reverse loading. > > ** Strange,...but true :-)

There was a simple but rather crude fix for that.

** Braze a bolt's nut onto the timing-cover? Then set the end-float limit by winding in a bolt thru the nut and cover?

**That's how the mechanic helped me out with a 265 Hemi. I still have the 265. Its bored out 060" to 273 cubes, waiting for a new owner :-)

**Jason