Can castration cause weight gain in male dogs?

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-05 23:44:16 UTC

HOWEDY Greg,

I hope you can help direct me to a published
peer reviewed journal showing aany association,
or lack of association between male dog castration
and weight gain.

Think physics, Greg. Surgical mutlation would
lighten the dog. Not to mention dehydration and
blood loss. And maybe the risk of infection or
worse. We had a vet here doin S/N for the
C-HOWENTY who was lettin bellys fall HOWET
befor they caught up with him.

My web search found veterinarians referring
to an association, but no hard data.

Well when you track DHOWEN the veterinary
EXXXPERTS who can justify S/N as anything
other than unnecessary inapupriate mutilation,
see if you can get him to defend it here on The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Forums.

I'm wondering f this is just folk lore

You mean, that dogs gain weight after inapupriate
unnecessary surgical sexual mutilation, Greg?

Perhaps instead of questioning the possible BAD
effects of surgical sexual mutlation, like 15% increase
in FEAR AGGRESSION and REDUCED LIFESPAN,
you should be asking them to justify surgical mutilation.

You won't be gettin no straight answers, Greg.
The veterinary community supports themselves
doin unnecessary inapupriate surgical mutilations.
It's EZ, CHEAP, and FUN for them, cause they
don't have to SELL IT.

HOWER DOG LOVERS DO THAT FOR THEM.

or if there is any studies to show the association.

You won't be gettin the FACTS from your
veterinary association, Greg. We got the
fox guardin the chickens, Greg.

Here you're asking liars dog abusers cowards
and active long term incurable mental cases
who don't have the information you want but
will give you their standard party line in favor
of surgical mutilation.

I HAVE found numerous controlled studies
of hypogonadal adult males that showed an
association between testosterone replacement
in men with testosterone deficencies and a
decrease in body fat and increase in lean body
mass,

Well Greg, perhaps THAT EXXXPLAINS the
15% increase in FEAR AGGRESSION and
shorter lifespans.

but I don't know if that information can be
generalized to dogs.

Probably so, Greg. You find any recommendations
for humans who aren't in a breeding program to
be sexually surgically mutilated, Greg?

My kids

Good point. You think you should neuter
them? That'll make them EZ to CON-TROL
when they reach adolescence.

are currently debating this issue

You're thinkin of havin your dog mutilated, Greg?

Are you thinkin of mutilating your dog to control
behavior problems or do you intend to let IT run
loose and don't want to allHOWE indiscriminate
breeding for lack of pupperly handling and controling
your dogs?

and I'm having no luck

Dog trainin ain't LUCK, Greg.

finding any evidence either way.

There's NO merit to surgically sexually mutialting a dog.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Find WON good reason to do it.

There AIN'T. All you'll get is HYSTERIA and LIES
from DOG LOVERS who'll do and say ANY THING
to defend their alleged right to hurt and murder dogs
as they always have cause THAT'S their human nature.

---Thanks for any help you can provide.

You're welcome.

HOWEDY Eddie,

Ahhh - then she's not actually a "positive" trainer.

That'll make janet very happy cause misery LOVES company.

She USES SOME positive reinforcement,

You mean bribes.

which all trainers do,

No. Only incompetents bribe.

but she also believes in corrections.

janet means pain fear force and intimidation.

janet is a dog abusing mental case, and YOU KNOW IT.

Yes you are correct.

Goddamned tootin. You came here to learn
HOWE to abuse your dog cause youre EXXXPERT
REAL LIFE dog trainer is likeWIZE, a FRAUD.

I misapplied the word positive i suppose.

Too many words, eh Eddie?

I actually just meatn taht she doesnt' use
choke collars or remotes.

There's LOTS of ways to HURT and INTIMIDATTE
dogs withHOWET shocking and jerking and choking
them on pronged spiked pinch choke collars as janet
PREFERS, Eddie.

You'd have to be a dog abuser or a mental
case to read this forum for ten minutes and
then post a question like you got. Are you
SHORE you're not Soup trolling these mental
cases to EXXXPOSE them as liars dog abusrs
cowards and active long term incurable MENTAL
CASES again?

What physical correction do you mean?

janet chokes shocks crates and murders dogs.

Depends on the puppy.

A dog is a dog as a dog abuser is a dog abuser.

A mild scruff shake (this is NOT picking the
puppy off the ground by a scruff -

That so? Seems janet is callin HOWER professor
of ANAL-ytic behviorISM research from UofWI a liar.

it's a little rattle with or with out the collar).

janet is a mental case.

Ive tried this and he bites back harder.

BWEEWEEEEHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!

IDIOT.

(remember he was a stray pup for
god knows how many weeks).

SO, WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT MEANS TO HURT HIM?

A "suspension". This is basically holding
the puppy under the "armpits" away from
your body, facing away from you, off the ground.

Well, seems janet is likeWIZE callin dr tripp of
animal planet a liar.

The puppy doesn't get put down until he settles.

Unless IT bites you and then she MURDERS IT, EDDIE.

Our trainer showed us this.

You wanna get your hard earned dough back?

He does settle down after squirming. We then
put him down and he goes back to biting.

BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!

3 strikes and you're out -

Oh, BTW, janet is likeWIZE, a IMBECILE.

actually IN - the crate, for 10 minutes or so -
but usually they're overtired and fall asleep!

BWWEEEHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

When all else fails, the timeout is what we use as well.

Works EVERY TIME, does it???

But not for 10 mintues.

BWEEAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!

I will try putting him in timeout longer.

IDIOT.

Thank you janet for your help

BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!

Hey Eddie? BE SHORE to read professor SCRUFF
SHAKE'S INSTRUCTIONS, he's accredited by a
UNIVERSITY. janet is employed to MURDER DOGS
at the local shelter...

Here's a discussion abHOWET breaking behaviors.
Remember, all behaviors are the same same, they're
just wearing different clothes:

From: Marshall Dermer (***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

While the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the dog
does next (the common advice is to praise once
the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least
stopped the unwanted behaviour), this is unique
to Jerry (and Marilyn) and from my own experiences
is an important part of the process.

And how do we know this aspect of his advice is right?

Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.

His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.

--Marshall

=================

"Marshall Dermer" <***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>
wrote in message news:9ihtee$7ib$***@uwm.edu...
From: Paul B (***@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 00:13:28 PST

Hello Marshall,

The way I view it from my observation of how
my dogs react is that the distraction interrupts
the dogs thought, not for good or bad, just
interrupts, the dog is therefore distracted for
a second and then will either continue the
behaviour or do something else.

The praise reassures the dog that the sound
distraction is not a threat or punishment,
however if everytime the dog resumes a
particular behaviour it's distracted immediately
(and praised immediately for reassurance) then
it quickly decides this behaviour is not fulfilling
and it ceases.

A dog will offer another behaviour in it's place
and if that is acceptable to us then we let it be
otherwise the distraction continues until a suitable
alternate behaviour is offered.

One example, Sam used to jump up on me
when I arrived home, I would shake can to
distract him right at the moment he was
about to jump up, after about 4 repetitions
he tried sitting and offering me his paw, of
course this was fine so I let it be.

While the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the
dog does next (the common advice is to
praise once the dog is doing a desired
behaviour or at least stopped the unwanted
behaviour), this is unique to Jerry (and Marilyn)
and from my own experiences is an important
part of the process.

Thanks Paul! He does recommend praising
a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
that this may not work and so distraction

Until i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon,
it went something like this with our 11 month old
puppy "Yoshi"
Yoshi: Bark, bark,
us: HUSH Youshi
Yoshi Bark, bark......................
us: Hush Youshi
Yoshi BARK, BARK, BARK, .................................
it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking
We decided to try the Jerry method
:Yoshi: BARK, BARK
US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it?
Yoshi Bark, Bark
US: It's ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them
Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that
I must say, it is so much more fun, when we
can praise him, to deal with things like this
Thanks Jerry
ps: We are just starting to go thru the Jerry
Papers, and learn how to live with our son
"Yoshi", whom we love very much. --
Best Regards,
Estel J. Hines

==============

There really is NOTHING new about the advice above!

Nuthin EXXXCEPT HOWE IT'S DONE.

Sound distraction may be understood in
terms of the more general behavior analytic
approach as follows.
The distracting stimulus

Like a SCRUFF SHAKE, professor?

evokes a behavior that is incompatible with barking.

You mean like SCREAMING "NO!" into ITS face
for 5 seconds?

The dog engages in some other behavior

NO, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.

THAT AIN'T HOWE IT WORKS.

and then is reinforced (if praise functions as a
reinforcer).

NO, professor. You don't UNDERSTAND the METHOD.

--Marshal

ANAL-yize THIS, professor SCRUFF SHAKE:

Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research
at UofWI marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM
"NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a
box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

******IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?*******

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works."

That's HOWE COME your dog has OCD behaviors
and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

And The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ you
can't post here abHOWETS noMOORE
cause you're a liar and a dog abuser and
a coward and a MENTAL CASE.

Here's HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard teaches
HIS FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual Students to train their critters NEARLY
INSTANTLY.

New Law Of Physics

HOWEDY People,

"The amount of misery and difficulty a dog abuser
has from their dogs is directly proportionate to the
number of times they've WARNED people to KILLFILE
Jerry and not study your FREE copy of The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual..."

"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of
Behavior Never Change, Or They'd Not Be
Scientific And Would Not Obtain Consistent,
Reliable, Fast, Effective Results For All Handler's
And All Dogs, NEARLY INSTANTLY, As Taught
In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual."

The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

"misty" <***@webtv.net wrote in message news: 16990-3CAB1F8C-***@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...

I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive.
I do know she's not here with us.

I really can't blame anyone here for her loss.

I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it
because of how you write/wrote.

I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a
shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not
wanting to stay home.

Up until I started using it my main concern had
been keeping my dogs in their own yard.

Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my
concern became how to keep them from running
off for days on end.

I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled
in the anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.

I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the
world now <g> A Wits End Trained dog, one
who is completely housetrained, doesn't chew
up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all
the time. IOW a great companion and friend.

Thanks Jerry!

=====================

We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and
no collars.
Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want
to come back in the yard and would run for days.
The last time, Peach didn't come back home.
I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how
to train my dog. She is now border trained. A few
minutes each day reinforces her desire to stay in
the yard.
She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop
her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes
when we walk around the yard.
I can not say loud or long enough how much I
hate the e-fence and its collars.
If you can't get a regular fence then you need to
train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic
collar to keep my dog in our yard again.
The price was too high:-(
~misty

--------------------------------

From: Nevyn (***@badmama.com.au)
Subject: Re: radio fence
Date: 2003-11-05 04:17:45 PST

Hi folks,

In my opinion the use of a radioshock fence is a waste of
time, effort or money. I can understand it if you a rich snob
who cares nothing about their dogs safey or behaviours.

At work I boundary train all the dogs to the bricked area
(Four kennels with 26 cages with 1 dog in each, 1 services
building and 2 catterys which is surrounded by scrubland to
the east and woodlands to the north and a lake to the west).

This works well, because then when people buy them the dogs
are easier to boundary train to a door or fence or yard.

However on a personal note, my two shelter mutts, who I
trained using the WITS END DOG MANUAL available at
www.doggydoright.com will not go past the back door, or the
back gate or the front gate without permission.

And it is nice, for when you are having a party, you can leave
your gates open for people, and your dogs won't be the least
concerned.

I find this better then spending your well earned money on a
piece of junk Why not use it to invest in a horse? Or a new
house? Make a nice aquarium? Build a nursery for a child?

Save your money. Train your dog. Please. -- Thankyou,
Nevyn

_________________________________
Nevyn E.D. Veterinary Nurse
& Animal Trainer ***@badmama.com.au
"You can judge a man's heart by his treatment of
animals"
__________________________________

From: Paul B (***@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Fence Jumping

Date: 2000-09-29 04:33:37 PST

Been well experienced in dogs escaping from our
yard I know exactly the frustration you are going
through. Sam used to jump over the fence so I
made it higher then we got Roz and she went
under it, through it and climbed over it.

I've decided there are only 2 ways to stop the escaping,
1 is to have an escape proof fence, the other to train the
dogs not to want to escape.

I suppose a third method is to keep them
inside but I don't consider that a solution.

Making the fence escape proof can be almost impossible
if the dog is determined, to stop it climbing over as yours
is doing put an extension on top of the fence that angles
inwards at about 30-45 degrees. Never use chicken wire
as the dogs tear through that like paper.

The only training method to prevent this I can recall is
Jerry's technique, essentially it involves walking around the
perimeter of the fenced area with the dog and using sound
distractions and praise to teach the dog it's boundary.

I have had partial success with it (i.e. I have deterred Roz
from escaping from various points along the fence) but then
again I haven't really followed it through completely.

One last glimmer of hope, as the dog gets older it may
become more settled, Sam never escapes now although
he's quite capable of getting out, he 2.5 years old and
seemed to settle at about 2. So there you are, only 1.5
years of escaping left!!!

Paul.

-- Visit our homepage (updated 29 September!!!) and see the
dogs, cats and us at... (please refresh the pages often to
make sure you get the latest one!!!!)

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paul_bousie/index.html "Noodlz"
<***@home.com> wrote in message news:***@home.com...

=================

Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
come forward and actually believe in his training manual.

Robert Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.

This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.

The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.

To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog
into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that
hide behind fake names are more honest than people that
use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante
dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than
those that have studied and lived by their craft for
decades.

"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.

Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.

And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
actually admit to buying and having success with his
little black box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.

Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
to him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad.

Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)

Here's Disciple Paulie:

Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands
How Wits End Training Really Works, They
Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't Realise
It's A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With
Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built On
Trust And Understanding."

Disciple Paulie Writes:

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell
them they are good dogs and they seem to
follow me, once I told them they were bad dogs
and they ran away from me, now I only ever tell
them they are good dogs and they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say
"good dog" sincerely at the end of the request and
I bet you'll find your dog thinking then responding
everytime.

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.

Paul.

========================

Here's a couple of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students tellin you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY

You'll get ALL the INFORMATION you need in your
FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual. You'll be
taught some general exercises to calm and relax
your dog and give him the direct attention he
NEEDS in only a few minutes every other day, and
you'll learn HOWE to use distraction and praise to
EXXXTINGUISH the HABITUAL aspect of this DIS-
EASE.

My dog (a 1 year old Yellow Lab) was biting his tail
at the root (Vet said his anal gland was blocked, and
was causing an itch).

After squeezing it, he still wouldn't stop biting his
tail. The vet advised a neck-funnel (don't know wat
you US-guy's call those) so he couldn't reach his butt.

I hate those things, i think they will drive a dog nuts.

I tried the wits end method. (difficult to read such a long
textfile if English is not your native language) Luckily this
is without all the "HOWE's" etc.so at least it's readable for
somebody like me.

The minute he started to bite i trew my key's
next to him on the floor, and praised him (he
stopped biting and looked up when he heard
the sound) I did this 7 times,

after that the tailbiting completely stopped.
Just give the wits end method a try.

One of the possible downloadlocations
is http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html

Hennie van Dalen
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11

----------------------------

Both my dogs at some stage have licked a spot
somewhere on their bodies and I have always
managed to train them to stop. In all cases there
was nothing wrong that licking would have helped
(Roz has had cut pads, stitches in her belly and
skin itrritations, all tempting her to lick), none of their
licking has been due to any allergies
. When I see the dog licking more than normal I
look at the spot to see whats there and decide if
a vet appointment is needed or to wait and see,
keeping a close eye.
To stop the licking I distract the dog and give it
some friendly banter, when it starts licking again
I repeat, usually after about 4 times the dog stops,
for the moment at least, if it starts again then repeat,
before long the dog has no more desire to lick that
spot at all.

The same thing worked with my lab licking/chewing
problem too. He had an itch due to blocked anal glands
and started chewing and licking his tail at the root.

After the glands were squeezed, and the itch was
gone he still wouldn't stop. (because the place he
chewed raw was itching)

After some training (roughly the same methode as
yours) he stopped.

--
Hennie van Dalen
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/

--------------------------------------

"Hennie van Dalen" <h.vandalen11***removethis***@chello.nl>
wrote in message news:TlsCb.2895$***@amstwist00...

RTFM is age-old computer lingo.... It stands for "Read The F***ing
Manual" ;-) I used the manual and it works
very good!

But it is a long text to read (76 pages printed on
A4-size paper) My lab is 1year old now, and teaching
him something new takes about 30minutes
(depending on what to teach offcourse)

My other dog (a 7year old staffordshire terrier-mix) is a bit
slower in learning, but he is used to me calling him a "bad
dog"whenever he did something i didn't want him to do, or
it might be the age.

Sometimes it looks like Sam (the lab) WANTS to learn
something new: he wants me to bring along the can
filled with washers whenever we go for a walk. It is a
very "humane" way of teaching: the dog is allways a
"good dog", and never a "bad dog"

There is nu punishment or prong-collars involved.

For a fact i tought him to heel in 15min's without
beeing on a leach at-all !!! When he spotted a dog,
he used to run towards it, but now i tought him to "ask
permission" first, and to my surprise it worked!

My dogs never went to puppy-training (lucky for them),
maybe this helped too.

Manual can be found at http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html

-- Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/

Jerry, I am forever in your debt. The system you have
created for training dogs is absolutely amazing!
I can't wait until the new version is available for human
children!
Thank you for your service to humanity!

The Jewish text _Darchei Shalom_
(Path of Peace) offers this advice for
coexistance.

1. Address issues, not people.

2. Check sources. Statements about the beliefs,
behaviors, and quotations of another group should
always be verified with members of that group for
accuracy, context, and intent.

3. Avoid stereotyping and sweeping generalities,
such as defining a whole group's behavior by the
behavior of some.

4. Avoid words of incitement. Language meant
merely to mock, divide, and insult should *never*
be used.

"Speech is a mirror of the soul: as a man speaks,
so is he." Publilius Syrus, First century B.C., Maxim 1073

"We are what we do."

The Amazing Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

Greg

2004-07-06 05:08:05 UTC

Permalink

Post by The Puppy Wizard
HOWEDY Greg,
Think physics, Greg. Surgical mutlation would
lighten the dog. Not to mention dehydration and
blood loss. And maybe the risk of infection or
worse. We had a vet here doin S/N for the
C-HOWENTY who was lettin bellys fall HOWET
befor they caught up with him.

I'm here seeking SCIENTIFIC information one way or another. What
"dehydration and blood loss?" I'm talking about a surgical procedure,
not me hacking his testicles off with a knife!!

Post by The Puppy Wizard
You mean, that dogs gain weight after inapupriate
unnecessary surgical sexual mutilation, Greg?

Well, I believe that I asked for scientific research about any
association between weight loss and castration- um -yep (I just re-read
my post) that is what I said. There was no mention of "unnecessary
sexual mutilation.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
Perhaps instead of questioning the possible BAD
effects of surgical sexual mutlation, like 15% increase
in FEAR AGGRESSION and REDUCED LIFESPAN,
you should be asking them to justify surgical mutilation.

That is great! Hard numbers.
That is what I was asking for. Now do you have any controlled, possibly
blinded studies to justify that number? By the way I said "blinded
studies" meaning the researchers didn't know which dog was castrated. I
suspect that it would be hard to do a double blind study since the dog's
gonna know that he had surgery. Assuming that you can provide the
reference for that statistic, I hope the research and control group were
large enough to reach the 95% confidence interval - otherwise my kids
will not be convinced one way or another.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
You won't be gettin no straight answers, Greg.

Yea, well reading your post - I kind of got that feeling. I'm looking
for dispassionate, scientifically justified answers - not people's
feelings on the matter.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
The veterinary community supports themselves
doin unnecessary inapupriate surgical mutilations.

Now see? There you go again - interjecting your emotions into the
discussion. I'll agree that the procedure is inappropriate (by the way,
you spelled that word wrong), the the use of the word "mutilation" tips
the reader off to your obvious bias perspective. You DO realize that
this tends to discredit your answers, especially in light of your lack
of objective research references to back any claims that you make.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
You won't be gettin the FACTS from your
veterinary association, Greg. We got the
fox guardin the chickens, Greg.

OK, finally we agree. That profession does seem to have a vested
interest in selling the surgery. I'm not sure that all of them would
though - some of them have to be very ethical people. They may even
believe that they are doing the right thing. I just want to see some
hard data supporting or refuting the benefits/health risks.

By the way - -you might want to stop using people's names in every
sentence. It does not make you look any smarter or authoritative. It's
annoying and makes us want to ignore you. ---Your not a "troll" are
you?

_michael

2004-07-06 08:14:39 UTC

Permalink

Post by Greg
Yea, well reading your post - I kind of got that feeling. I'm looking
for dispassionate, scientifically justified answers - not people's
feelings on the matter.

Here you go. You won't find any objective information
on this topic from people in the US. They aren't
concerned about the truth, only with ramming their
antidog spay/neuter nazi agenda down your throat.

I hope that heelps.

NEUTERED MALES HAVE THE SHORTEST LIFE SPAN OF ALL TYPES OF DOGS STUDIED
-----------------------------------------------------------
Longevity of British breeds of dog and its relationships with sex, size,
cardiovascular variables and disease

(British study of lifespan averages for dog breeds)
source: A.R. Michell
Veterinary Record vol 145 no 22 November 27 1999
starts p 625, 5 pages long

A British study has recorded links between dog breeds and longevity,
using a questionnaire covering 3,126 dogs. The dogs lived for a mean
average of 11 years 1 month, rising to 12 years 8 months for those dying
of natural causes, while the median average was 12 years for all dogs,
and 13 years 2 months for dogs dying of natural causes. One dog survived
to 22 years, and 8% of dogs survived to be over 15 years, while 26%
reached 14 years or more. Neutered bitches lived longest of dogs dying
of all causes, though entire bitches lived longest of dogs dying of
natural causes, with neutered males having the shortest lifespan in each
category.

Jack Russells and Staffordshire bull terriers were overrepresented among
dogs killed in traffic accidents, with such accidents accounting for
3.2% of all deaths. Corgis, Staffordshire bull terriers, and weimaraners
were overrepresented among those euthanased due to behavioural problems,
with German shepherds and rottweilers underrepresented. Only 2% of all
the deaths were due to euthanasia as a result of behavioural problems.
Irish wolfhounds, rottweilers, and Afghan hounds were overrepresented
among dogs dying of cancer, in descending order, while beagles, Cavalier
King Charles spaniels, and Dachshunds were underrepresented, in
ascending order, with no cases at all recorded for the beagles. Cancer
was the most common cause of death in the groups as a whole, accounting
for 44.9% of deaths of entire males, 34.7% of deaths of neutered males,
50.2% of deaths of entire females, and 39.6% of deaths of neutered
females. Neutered dogs were more likely than entire dogs to die of heart
disease, which accounted for 34.7% of deaths in neutered males compared
to 22.5% for entire males, and 23.6% of deaths of neutered females
compared to 20.3% of entire females.

Breeds vary greatly in terms of longevity. Breeds recorded as having a
median age at death of 14 years or over were Bedlington terriers,
miniature dachshunds, miniature poodles, Tibetan terriers, toy poodles,
and whippets. Breeds with a median age at death of between 13.0 - 13.9
years were beagles, border collies, border terriers, Cairn terriers,
chihuahuas, chow chows, collies, cross-breeds, dalmations, greyhounds,
Jack Russells, Pekineses, Shetland sheepdogs, shi-tzus, English
springer spaniels, and wire-haired fox terriers. Breeds with a median
age at death of 12.0 - 12.9 years included golden retrievers, labrador
retrievers, rough collies, West Highland white terriers, and Yorkshire
terriers. Cocker spaniels, Irish setters and old English sheepdogs were
in the 11.0 - 11.9 year range, and boxers, cavalier King Charles
spaniels, German shepherds and Staffordshire bull terriers in the
10.0 - 10.9 year range, while deerhounds, dobermanns, flat-coated
retrievers, Lhasa apsos, Rhodesian ridgebacks and rottweilers were in
the 9.0 - 9.9 range. Breeds with a median age at death of under nine
years were Bernese mountain dogs, bulldogs, bullmastiffs, great danes,
Irish wolfhounds, miniature schnauzers and St Bernards. There does not
appear to be a link between blood pressure, heart rate, and longevity.

There have been studies carried out in other countries of breeds and
longevity, and there are both similarities and differences with this
British study. Euthanasia for behavioural problems is more common in the
US. Data based on national populations show breed differences. A study
of Swedish dogs also found Irish wolfhounds and boxers to be vulnerable
to cancers, though the Swedish study found greyhounds and some other
breeds more vulnerable than did this British study. DO,HD
-----------------------------------------------------

NEUTERED MALES have the HIGHEST RATE FOR PROSTATE CANCER
---------------------------------------------------
Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an
increased risk in castrated dogs.

Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA.

Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals,
Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80.154, 3508 TD, Utrecht, The
Netherlands

The present retrospective study investigated the frequency
of prostate carcinoma (PCA) among prostate abnormalities in
dogs and determined whether castration influences the
incidence of PCA in dogs. During the years 1993-1998, 15363
male dogs were admitted to the Utrecht University Clinic of
Companion Animals, and of these dogs 225 were diagnosed
with prostatic disease. In addition, another 206 male dogs
were diagnosed as having prostatic disease based on
cytologic examination of aspiration biopsies submitted by
referring veterinarians. Benign prostatic hyperplasia was
diagnosed in 246 dogs (57.1%), prostatitis in 83 dogs
(19.3%), and PCA in 56 dogs (13%). Dogs with PCA were
significantly older (mean age=9.9 years) than dogs with
other prostatic diseases (mean age=8.4 years). The Bouvier
des Flandres breed had an increased risk (odds ratio
(OR)=8.44; 95% CI 4.38-16.1) of having PCA. Castration
(26/56) increased the risk (OR=4.34; 95% CI 2.48-7.62) of
PCA. The mean age at diagnosis of PCA in castrated dogs and
in intact male dogs was not significantly different. The
interval between castration and onset of prostatic problems
was highly variable, suggesting that castration does not
initiate the development of PCA in the dog, but it does
favour tumor progression.
------------------------------------------------

--
this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

Greg

2004-07-06 18:06:46 UTC

Permalink

Thats so great! I've had absolutely NO luck finding any references when
I've done my searches. You know, I'm not even sure if these references
were buried somewhere in the Pub-med or Med-line databases. Those were
my primary search sources - but I also searched the on-line American
Veterinary associations as well as a general Yahoo search using multiple
search terms. - - - Where did you search to find these references? By
the way - Thank you, thank you, thank you! Once I obtain a copy of
these references and read them, I'll give the Vet a copy.

Now my next problem will be finding a hard copy of those articles to
copy. Heres the reason:
My wife, kids and I all went to the Vet with our 14 month old Golden
Retriever puppy. The Vet launched into a spiel about how he needed to
be neutered (castrated). I objected - citing human studies showing a
clear association between dysthymia (low level depression),
irritability, and decreased muscle mass. She (the Vet), said that "dogs
are not Humans." We debated the applicability of human research to
animal physiology, then she pulled out the "I'm a Vet and your not"
defense.

Bottom line: I told her that NO ONE is gong to remove a functioning
organ from MY DOG unless I am convinced that the benefits outweigh the
harm. She looked past me at my wife and used facial expressions to
indicate her exasperation at my "unreasonableness." About a month
later, my wife went to license the dog and the City clerk convinced her
that the reason it was cheaper to license a castrated dog was because
the state recognized the health benefits gained by castration. When I
came home that day, my family and this dog were not home. When they
came home without the dog, my wife confessed that she had taken the dog
for surgery without my knowledge because I was unreasonable not to agree
with a health benefiting procedure - besides, she said, the dog will be
less aggressive and won't "ride" the Older Golden Retriever anymore (We
have an older Golden that is NOT neutered). OK, water under the bridge -
what was I going to do at that point? The damage was done.
Well, over the year, since the castration, I have been too busy in grad
school as well as working, and although I noticed that the younger,
neutered dog, was getting a little pudgy, I left that up to the wife and
kids to deal with.

We went to the vets the other day and much to everyone's amazement, the
dog weighed over 160 lbs. We all knew that he was pudgy, but he's also
just taller and longer than any other dog in our area except a Great
Dane down the street. Although the AKA papers and Vet certify his pure
bred status, he's longer and taller than any police dog you've ever
seen. I have more than once contemplated getting his growth hormone
levels checked. I would be interested in a CAT or MRI scan of his
Pituitary, but that is not an option, at least in our area.
So I am left to wonder: why is he so much longer and taller than other
members of his breed? And why is he do pudgy? I could not get the Vet
to agree that castration is associated with weight gain, but I've heard
from many farmers that castration causes an animal to gain weight. When
I asked about the farmer's claims of an association between castration
and weight gain she said they were not talking about dogs. Again, I
brought up the human research showing an association between
testosterone replacement therapy and a resultant increase in muscle mass
and decrease in fat mass. She pulled out the "dogs arn't humans"
argument again.

I graduated from a "top 10" Nurse Practitioner program, and that I am no
stranger to reproductive and pathophysiology as well as being more
recently trained in evidence based medicine than she (I just graduated,
and she had been out in practice for more than a few years) - besides,
there is less focus on evidence based medicine in Vet science - instead,
they rely on the more traditional "tried and true" methodology. But
where was the evidence I could use to refute her claims of NO
ASSOCIATION between castration and increased body fat?
I'm left to wonder if that is just folk lore or is it a fact that just
hasn't been well documented in dogs.
It just seems to be bad medicine to do a procedure or treatment where
the beniefit/harm relationship hasn't been clearly documented.

Post by _michael

Post by Greg
Yea, well reading your post - I kind of got that feeling. I'm looking
for dispassionate, scientifically justified answers - not people's
feelings on the matter.

michael_

2004-07-06 19:12:22 UTC

Permalink

Post by Greg
Thats so great! I've had absolutely NO luck finding any references when
I've done my searches. You know, I'm not even sure if these references
were buried somewhere in the Pub-med or Med-line databases. Those were
my primary search sources - but I also searched the on-line American
Veterinary associations as well as a general Yahoo search using multiple
search terms. - - - Where did you search to find these references?

Not in America. Europeans provided the cites.

Post by Greg
By
the way - Thank you, thank you, thank you! Once I obtain a copy of
these references and read them, I'll give the Vet a copy.

And Thank you, thank you, thank you! for telling your story
below. It's quite illustrative of the current state of
malquackery of the Vets in America.

Post by Greg
Now my next problem will be finding a hard copy of those articles to
My wife, kids and I all went to the Vet with our 14 month old Golden
Retriever puppy. The Vet launched into a spiel about how he needed to
be neutered (castrated). I objected - citing human studies showing a
clear association between dysthymia (low level depression),
irritability, and decreased muscle mass. She (the Vet), said that "dogs
are not Humans." We debated the applicability of human research to
animal physiology, then she pulled out the "I'm a Vet and your not"
defense.

BWHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!
Yes, they just want you to accept what they say
because they are the "expert." not because what they
are saying is necessarily true.

That's where I come into play. I'm a metaexpert. I'm
an expert on dog experts. I know all their tricks and
habits.

Post by Greg
Bottom line: I told her that NO ONE is gong to remove a functioning
organ from MY DOG unless I am convinced that the benefits outweigh the
harm. She looked past me at my wife and used facial expressions to
indicate her exasperation at my "unreasonableness."

You're a man. That is your problem. Most spay and neuter
nazis are women (although there are some men) and they have
a deep fear and distrust of all things testicular.

You're bad and wrong, simply because you are man. How
long have you been married? You should know that by now.

Post by Greg
About a month
later, my wife went to license the dog

Bad move number one. First of all, the people who
license your dog, are also the people who kill dogs
aka (animal control). By paying them money, you are
only making it worse for yourself, because the
services they provide do nothing for responsible
dog owners. They harass responsible dog owners by
enforcing anti-dog legislation. You are funding your
own harassment when you buy a dog license.

But that's another subject. Suffice it to say that
those people are EOD (Enemies of Dog), and you don't
really want your dog near them, if at all possible.
Better to train your dog to an extremely high level,
so that licensing and laws are never an issue.

Post by Greg
and the City clerk convinced her
that the reason it was cheaper to license a castrated dog was because
the state recognized the health benefits gained by castration.

they just want blood. They are EOD. They just want to cut
parts out of dogs and they will keep hammering you until you
submit.

You learned the hard way, but others can learn from
your story.

Post by Greg
When I
came home that day, my family and this dog were not home. When they
came home without the dog, my wife confessed that she had taken the dog
for surgery without my knowledge because I was unreasonable not to agree
with a health benefiting procedure - besides, she said, the dog will be
less aggressive and won't "ride" the Older Golden Retriever anymore (We
have an older Golden that is NOT neutered). OK, water under the bridge -

No offense brother, but I'm questioning who wears the
pants in your family. If it was me, my wife might have
gone under the bridge along with the water. But that's
not important right now, let's continue, shall we?

Okay, here is where all of our hypocows spay/neuter nazis
are going to jump in and jump on you and blame you for your
dog's weight problem. Many of them specialize in starving dogs
and I'm sure some of them can heelp you with a starvation diet.

Post by Greg
I graduated from a "top 10" Nurse Practitioner program, and that I am no
stranger to reproductive and pathophysiology as well as being more
recently trained in evidence based medicine than she (I just graduated,
and she had been out in practice for more than a few years) - besides,
there is less focus on evidence based medicine in Vet science - instead,
they rely on the more traditional "tried and true" methodology.

I have a BS in Biology myself. But it doesn't take that to
understand that sex organs do more than sex. They are part
of a system of organs which interact with eachother on
multiple levels. It is NEVER a trivial thing to cut out
the sex organs out of a dog. And often times, it's a very
BAD thing.

Post by Greg
But
where was the evidence I could use to refute her claims of NO
ASSOCIATION between castration and increased body fat?
I'm left to wonder if that is just folk lore or is it a fact that just
hasn't been well documented in dogs.

Probably because vets won't study it because they make
so much money off of castration.

Post by Greg
It just seems to be bad medicine to do a procedure or treatment where
the beniefit/harm relationship hasn't been clearly documented.

I think you're getting somewhere.
Glad to be of heelp.

here's my two uncastrated males.

Loading Image...

ages 8.5 and 2.5

I have zero problems with them living together,
other than an occasional minor food
fight when they both get to a piece of hot
dog at the same time when I'm training. My
fault for bad aim.

PS,
when I took chazz to a vet last year, the
vet (a young male) took one look at him
and said "wow (admiringly) that dog's not
neutered is he" this is before he checked
under the hood. He could tell by Chazz's body
structure that was intact, and he was impressed
for some reason.

this is michael
reporting live..
http://dogtv.com

Post by Greg

Post by _michael

Post by Greg
Yea, well reading your post - I kind of got that feeling. I'm looking
for dispassionate, scientifically justified answers - not people's
feelings on the matter.

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-06 20:53:31 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY Greg,

Post by Greg
Thats so great!

Ain't it.

Post by Greg
I've had absolutely NO luck

This BUSINESS AIN'T LUCK, Greg.

Post by Greg
finding any references when I've done my searches.

You just didn't read The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
Archives on Google, Greg. EVERY THING you need
to know is in there.

Post by Greg
You know, I'm not even sure if these references
were buried somewhere in the Pub-med or Med-line
databases.

Probably not. Would you publish information
that would wipe HOWET abHOWET half your
income?

Post by Greg
Those were my primary search sources -

You mean, you asked the foxes where the
chickens are. They ain't gonna tell you, Greg.

Post by Greg
but I also searched the on-line American
Veterinary associations

Yeah. Their membership will be eager to
hear the good news that they don't have
to surgically sexually mutilate any MOORE
critters unless it's for a medical reason or
feral S/N/Release program.

Post by Greg
as well as a general Yahoo search

Google, Greg. Google. Not some yahoo search engine.
Although Google has tended to lose a few very important
posts which may be FHOWEND on other search engines.

Post by Greg
using multiple search terms.

You shoulda asked The Amazing Puppy Wizard, Greg.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard ain't The Amazing Puppy
Wizard just for show, you know.

Post by Greg
- - - Where did you search to find these references?

Perhaps Soup fabricated them. He's been accused
of that before. We both have. Even by some of us
right here.

Post by Greg
By the way - Thank you, thank you, thank you!

For WHAT? The INFORMATION you got wasn't
even what you was lookin for. You was lookin for
FAT, not SMART.

Post by Greg
Once I obtain a copy of these references

For WHAT? The Amazing Puppy Wizard
sez neutering dogs is inapupriate unnecessary
dangerHOWES surgical sexual mutilation.

Post by Greg
and read them, I'll give the Vet a copy.

They'll throw it HOWET cause that INFORMATION
will break their piggy banks.

Post by Greg
Now my next problem will be finding a hard
copy of those articles to copy.

Take it to a copy shop. Print them HOWET
along with a copy of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual.

Post by Greg
My wife, kids and I all went to the Vet with our
14 month old Golden Retriever puppy. The
Vet launched into a spiel about how he needed
to be neutered (castrated). I objected - citing
human studies showing a clear association
between dysthymia (low level depression),
irritability, and decreased muscle mass.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard TOLD YOU THAT
HE'S SEEN 15% INCREASE in FEAR AGGRESSION
as a direct result of S/N and there's DATA in
the CASE HISTORIES of HOWER DOG LOVERS
in The Amazing Puppy Wizard's Archives on Google,
not some yahoo search engine.

Post by Greg
She (the Vet), said that "dogs are not Humans."

Lucky for them or most of them'd be HOWETA busines.

Post by Greg
We debated the applicability of human research
to animal physiology, then she pulled out the "I'm
a Vet and your not" defense.

Yeah. Next time have your vet write to
The Amazing Puppy wizard.

Post by Greg
Bottom line: I told her that NO ONE is gong to
remove a functioning organ from MY DOG unless
I am convinced that the benefits outweigh the harm.

There AIN'T NO BENEFITS. Trying to purport
that there are, is MALPRACTICE and FRAUD.

Post by Greg
She looked past me at my wife and used facial
expressions to indicate her exasperation at my
"unreasonableness."

You mean, as any physicain would while
disucssing the BUSINESS of health.

Post by Greg
About a month later, my wife went to license
the dog and the City clerk convinced her that
the reason it was cheaper to license a castrated
dog was because the state recognized the health
benefits gained by castration.

That's INSANE.

Oh. Well what do you EXXXPECT, Greg?
You couldn't even control your dog.

Post by Greg
besides, she said, the dog will be less aggressive

That so? HOWE abHOWET the 15% INCREASE
in FEAR AGGRESSION that's been REPORTED
RIGHT HERE?

Post by Greg
and won't "ride" the Older Golden Retriever anymore

Dogs hump cause they're anxiHOWES, not horny.

Post by Greg
(We have an older Golden that is NOT neutered).

Oh. So your wife mutilated your dog cause he
was ill trained and HOWETA control.

Post by Greg
OK, water under the bridge -

Hardly. Think abHOWET it, Greg. Here's
a woman sworn to lover honor and obey
and she gone and went against your known
desires and involved your daughter to conspire
against your better judgement, when they
had no INFORMATION other than THEY DON'T
TRUST YOU.

Major problem, Greg. That's HOWE COME dogs
fail to perform and have accidents and GET DEAD.

Trust is what this dog behaviorBUSINESS is all
abHOWET, Greg. A dog is a dog as a child is
a child as a spHOWES is a spHOWES, Greg.

We ain't talkin dog behavior, never have been.

Post by Greg
what was I going to do at that point?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard would pack
her bags and send her away and keep
the daughter on restriction till she's 18.
When you get into court mention alienation
of affection and contributing to the delenquency
of your daughter.

HOWE can you EXXXPECT her to RESPECT you?

It's a done deal, Greg.

Post by Greg
The damage was done.

That was PREDICTABLE, Greg.

Post by Greg
Well, over the year, since the castration,
I have been too busy in grad school

Ahhh. University educated, no less.

Post by Greg
as well as working, and although I noticed
that the younger, neutered dog, was getting
a little pudgy, I left that up to the wife and
kids to deal with.

That's irrelevent. At least IT didn't become
WON of them 15%'ers who turn on their
family after surgical mutilation. HOWEver,
there's still PLENTY time. There'll be an
opportunity at two and five years of age.

Post by Greg
We went to the vets the other day and much
to everyone's amazement, the dog weighed
over 160 lbs. We all knew that he was pudgy,
but he's also just taller and longer than any
other dog in our area except a Great Dane
down the street. Although the AKA papers
and Vet certify his pure bred status, he's
longer and taller than any police dog you've
ever seen. I have more than once contemplated
getting his growth hormone levels checked.

It's possible he's been provoked in such a way
as to stress his auto immune system. It's all
art of The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME, Greg.

Post by Greg
I would be interested in a CAT or MRI scan of his
Pituitary, but that is not an option, at least in our area.

It's probably irrelevent.

Post by Greg
why is he so much longer and taller
than other members of his breed?

Could be that Dane's daddy jumped the fence.

Post by Greg
And why is he do pudgy? I could not get the Vet
to agree that castration is associated with weight
gain,

You mean despite the evidence in front of them.

Post by Greg
but I've heard from many farmers that castration
causes an animal to gain weight. When I asked
about the farmer's claims of an association between
castration and weight gain she said they were not
talking about dogs.

Right. Perhaps they should study rats with red eyes?

Post by Greg
Again, I brought up the human research showing
an association between testosterone replacement
therapy and a resultant increase in muscle mass
and decrease in fat mass. She pulled out the "dogs
arn't humans" argument again.

Yeah. That's SCIENCE for ya.

FIGGER IT HOWET.

Post by Greg
I graduated from a "top 10" Nurse Practitioner program,
and that I am no stranger to reproductive and pathophysiology
as well as being more recently trained in evidence based
medicine than she (I just graduated, and she had been out in
practice for more than a few years) - besides, there is less
focus on evidence based medicine in Vet science - instead,
they rely on the more traditional "tried and true" methodology.

IOW, they're begining to accept MAGICK and Voo Doo?

Post by Greg
But where was the evidence I could use to refute
her claims of NO ASSOCIATION between castration
and increased body fat?

The temperament and other health issues are
far MOORE seriHOWES than FAT.

Post by Greg
I'm left to wonder if that is just folk lore or is it a
fact that just hasn't been well documented in dogs.
It just seems to be bad medicine to do a procedure
or treatment where the beniefit/harm relationship
hasn't been clearly documented.

Well, it HAS been documented but the
INDUSTRY doesn't wanna HEAR it.

Post by Greg

Post by _michael

Post by Greg
Yea, well reading your post - I kind of got that
feeling. I'm looking for dispassionate, scientifically
justified answers - not people's feelings on the matter.

Greg

2004-07-07 05:44:43 UTC

Permalink

Post by The Puppy Wizard
HOWEDY Greg,
Oh. Well what do you EXXXPECT, Greg?
You couldn't even control your dog.

Hey, both you and michael_ <***@microyahoogoogle.com> need to back
off on comments about my family.
FYI - my wife really "owns" the dogs anyhow. I old her before she
bought the first one that it would be a bigger responsibility than I was
willing to take on -especially with juggling work, school, and raising a
family. She prevailed with her arguments that she had a dog as a child
and felt that it would be a beneficial companion for us all, especially
the kids. I've never had a dog as a child - but I had numerous fish,
various rodents, as well as turtles and any other animal I could find
including snakes, frogs, injured birds and turtles (of course I was
always required to release the wild animals).
My point is that I had told her before each animal came into the house
that SHE was going to bear ultimate responsibility for them since, while
I have always loved dogs, that I considered them to be major
responsibilities - like having more children.
It was her who:
--searched the papers and visited the sellers to find these dogs.
--paid the astronomical price for these purebreds (personally, I would
have gone to our local humane society and rescued a dog).
--paid the numerous vet bills.
--trained them from going to the bathroom to following commands.
So WHY would I need to "control" my wife or prove "who wears the pants"
in the family? We each have our own domains. Hers is the management of
the dogs. It's funny that between the two of us, they seem to think I'm
their pack leader - -they must not know who in the family is writing the
checks for them.
Guys, when I came to this forum I posted my question as neutral as
possible - and did not indicate my position. In the last post I told
the story and my position became obvious. As you can see, I agree that
it is a bad idea to do a procedure where there is no firm research to
justify the risks. While my wife is beginning to believe me now, she
was convinced by the Vet's greater dog specific training. The real
blame should fall on the Vet for working so hard to convince her that
the castration was a medically justifiable procedure. When I found out
how much the dog weighs - it sunk in that there is something drastically
wrong with a dog weighing almost twice what the average weight for that
breed is.
Puppy Wizard: when I talked about checking the growth hormone levels you
responded that stress might provoke an auto-immune response. Even if
that were so, an auto-imune attack on the pituitary has not been
documented to cause an increase in growth hormone. Now the thyroid
tissue is different: an autoimmune attack may initially result in
increased thyroid levels as the TSH receptors are stimulated by
antibodies, and again as the damaged cell releases stored thyroid
hormones.
You also stated that a CAT or MRI scan of the pituitary "is probably
irrelevant." Not true: a GH releasing tumor may cause accelerated
growth - thus explaining his giantism (IF he can really be classified as
suffering from giantism).
On a final note: those references seemed god at first, but there is not
enough information to retrieve them. The second one about prostate
cancer lacks a publication source.

Amy Dahl

2004-07-07 10:07:41 UTC

Permalink

Greg wrote:

On a final note: those references seemed god at first, but there is not

Post by Greg
enough information to retrieve them. The second one about prostate
cancer lacks a publication source.

Greg, here's another $.02 for you. I've read a number of articles but
don't have them handy (have moved & been busy). Dogs castrated
young do tend to grow taller and fill out less. I believe this is a
generally accepted observation. On the weight, studies have shown
that castrated dogs tend to gain weight but of course it's not inevitable.
There are other factors, such as the recommendations for feeding on
many dog food labels, which advise feeding more than the dog needs.
In principle, it should be possible to manage weight in a healthy
animal. I feed for condition; if I see too much fat (or too-clearly-
outlined ribs) I adjust the amount.

Many of the studies I've read are disappointing in terms of methodology
and the number of dogs involved. This is especially true of those
relating behavior/aggression and castration. Many rely heavily on
owner observation and it's difficult to tease out to what extent people
believe they are seeing what they have been told they will see (by their
vet). Dealing with people's pets, there are also questions of whether
the selection process leads to an inherent bias.

Castrated males have a high incidence of canine cognitive dysfunction,
but my understanding is that they're working on developing testosterone
supplements as a treatment and I wouldn't be surprised if those are
available by the time your puppy is in the affected age class.

Personally, if a vet pulled that "I'm a vet and you're not" business on
me, I'd find another vet.

My personal bias is to prefer intact males. I like the personality, and
I like the greater muscle and endurance.

Amy Dahl

Gwen Watson

2004-07-07 15:15:39 UTC

Permalink

Post by Amy Dahl
My personal bias is to prefer intact males. I like the personality, and
I like the greater muscle and endurance.
Amy Dahl

You need to meet my one male that was neutered at age 12 months.
And one women told he would become a couch potatoe. Well that
never happened. In fact he never slowed down. He has awesome
endurance as well as grand muscle. Of course the fact that I do
take him swimming regular plays a factor. But he also has
a rare disorder called "fibrotic myopathy" which has not
slowed him down one bit. He is for sure a very high drive
Schutzhund line dog full of fire at age, 5.5 and still going
strong and hard. I recently did go to one of Fred's certified
"no limitations" instructors and I am quite please with the results
and how calm it has made him outside.

At any rate neutering doesn't necesarrily slow a dog down or give them
less endurance or muscle. And if it slowed Blade down I would hate
to see what he might have
been like.

Personally I more or less prefer my males neutered since all the neighbors
around have "free roaming" bitches in heat all the time. I am totally on
edge whenever I let my Pembroke outside due to this, since he is
showing in AKC conformation at least until he turns 2.5 years old.
If no pts. at that time he will be neutered quite quickly.

Gwen

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-08 01:15:06 UTC

Permalink

You're a dog abusing mental case, gwen honey.

Your dogs are DYING from STRESS.

Post by Gwen Watson

Post by Amy Dahl
My personal bias is to prefer intact males. I like the

personality, and

Post by Gwen Watson

Post by Amy Dahl
I like the greater muscle and endurance.
Amy Dahl

results

Post by Gwen Watson
and how calm it has made him outside.
At any rate neutering doesn't necesarrily slow a dog down or

give them

Post by Gwen Watson
less endurance or muscle. And if it slowed Blade down I would

hate

Post by Gwen Watson
to see what he might have
been like.
Personally I more or less prefer my males neutered since all the neighbors
around have "free roaming" bitches in heat all the time. I am

totally on

Post by Gwen Watson
edge whenever I let my Pembroke outside due to this, since he is
showing in AKC conformation at least until he turns 2.5 years

old.

Post by Gwen Watson
If no pts. at that time he will be neutered quite quickly.
Gwen

michael_

2004-07-07 10:54:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by Greg

Post by The Puppy Wizard
HOWEDY Greg,
Oh. Well what do you EXXXPECT, Greg?
You couldn't even control your dog.

off on comments about my family.

Hello Greg,

The Puppy Wizard and myself don't specialize in
human relations, so you'll have to excuse us. The problem
is though, that the people who do specialize in human
relations here, will often lie to you, dis and misinform
you, and be nice to you and tell you what you want to hear.
So I guess you've got to pick your poison. Anyway,
good luck in your search for the truth. Let us know if you
come up with anything good.

--
this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

Post by Greg
FYI - my wife really "owns" the dogs anyhow. I old her before she
bought the first one that it would be a bigger responsibility than I was
willing to take on -especially with juggling work, school, and raising a
family. She prevailed with her arguments that she had a dog as a child
and felt that it would be a beneficial companion for us all, especially
the kids. I've never had a dog as a child - but I had numerous fish,
various rodents, as well as turtles and any other animal I could find
including snakes, frogs, injured birds and turtles (of course I was
always required to release the wild animals).
My point is that I had told her before each animal came into the house
that SHE was going to bear ultimate responsibility for them since, while
I have always loved dogs, that I considered them to be major
responsibilities - like having more children.
--searched the papers and visited the sellers to find these dogs.
--paid the astronomical price for these purebreds (personally, I would
have gone to our local humane society and rescued a dog).
--paid the numerous vet bills.
--trained them from going to the bathroom to following commands.
So WHY would I need to "control" my wife or prove "who wears the pants"
in the family? We each have our own domains. Hers is the management of
the dogs. It's funny that between the two of us, they seem to think I'm
their pack leader - -they must not know who in the family is writing the
checks for them.
Guys, when I came to this forum I posted my question as neutral as
possible - and did not indicate my position. In the last post I told
the story and my position became obvious. As you can see, I agree that
it is a bad idea to do a procedure where there is no firm research to
justify the risks. While my wife is beginning to believe me now, she
was convinced by the Vet's greater dog specific training. The real
blame should fall on the Vet for working so hard to convince her that
the castration was a medically justifiable procedure. When I found out
how much the dog weighs - it sunk in that there is something drastically
wrong with a dog weighing almost twice what the average weight for that
breed is.
Puppy Wizard: when I talked about checking the growth hormone levels you
responded that stress might provoke an auto-immune response. Even if
that were so, an auto-imune attack on the pituitary has not been
documented to cause an increase in growth hormone. Now the thyroid
tissue is different: an autoimmune attack may initially result in
increased thyroid levels as the TSH receptors are stimulated by
antibodies, and again as the damaged cell releases stored thyroid
hormones.
You also stated that a CAT or MRI scan of the pituitary "is probably
irrelevant." Not true: a GH releasing tumor may cause accelerated
growth - thus explaining his giantism (IF he can really be classified as
suffering from giantism).
On a final note: those references seemed god at first, but there is not
enough information to retrieve them. The second one about prostate
cancer lacks a publication source.

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-07 11:43:59 UTC

Permalink

BWEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!

In article

Post by The Puppy Wizard
HOWEDY Greg,
Oh. Well what do you EXXXPECT, Greg?
You couldn't even control your dog.

to back

off on comments about my family.
FYI - my wife really "owns" the dogs anyhow. I old her before

she

bought the first one that it would be a bigger responsibility

than I was

willing to take on -especially with juggling work, school, and

raising a

family. She prevailed with her arguments that she had a dog as a child
and felt that it would be a beneficial companion for us all,

especially

the kids. I've never had a dog as a child - but I had numerous fish,
various rodents, as well as turtles and any other animal I could find
including snakes, frogs, injured birds and turtles (of course I was
always required to release the wild animals).
My point is that I had told her before each animal came into the house
that SHE was going to bear ultimate responsibility for them

since, while

I have always loved dogs, that I considered them to be major
responsibilities - like having more children.
--searched the papers and visited the sellers to find these

dogs.

--paid the astronomical price for these purebreds (personally, I would
have gone to our local humane society and rescued a dog).
--paid the numerous vet bills.
--trained them from going to the bathroom to following commands.
So WHY would I need to "control" my wife or prove "who wears the pants"
in the family? We each have our own domains. Hers is the

management of

the dogs. It's funny that between the two of us, they seem to

think I'm

their pack leader - -they must not know who in the family is

writing the

checks for them.
Guys, when I came to this forum I posted my question as neutral as
possible - and did not indicate my position. In the last post I told
the story and my position became obvious. As you can see, I

agree that

it is a bad idea to do a procedure where there is no firm

research to

justify the risks. While my wife is beginning to believe me

now, she

was convinced by the Vet's greater dog specific training. The

real

blame should fall on the Vet for working so hard to convince her that
the castration was a medically justifiable procedure. When I

found out

how much the dog weighs - it sunk in that there is something

drastically

wrong with a dog weighing almost twice what the average weight

for that

breed is.
Puppy Wizard: when I talked about checking the growth hormone

levels you

responded that stress might provoke an auto-immune response.

Even if

that were so, an auto-imune attack on the pituitary has not been
documented to cause an increase in growth hormone. Now the

thyroid

tissue is different: an autoimmune attack may initially result

increased thyroid levels as the TSH receptors are stimulated by
antibodies, and again as the damaged cell releases stored

thyroid

hormones.
You also stated that a CAT or MRI scan of the pituitary "is

probably

irrelevant." Not true: a GH releasing tumor may cause

accelerated

growth - thus explaining his giantism (IF he can really be

classified as

suffering from giantism).
On a final note: those references seemed god at first, but there is not
enough information to retrieve them. The second one about

prostate

cancer lacks a publication source.

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-06 22:59:16 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY bethgsd,
Looks like Greg's been learnin the HARD way.

Greg, What are AKA papers?

You don't suppoe he meant AKC papers, do you bethgsd?

Did you see the parents of this dog? Personally, I
wouldn't necessarily trust the vet to know if the dog
is purebred. Many vets don't have that much knowledge
of different breeds.

Unlike yourself.

There has been some research that shows
that neutering before the growth plates close
will delay the closing, hence neutered dogs
tend to be taller than their unneutered littermates.

Well, there's another good reason not to surgically mutilate.

Post by Greg
And why is he do pudgy? I could not get the Vet
to agree that castration is associated with weight gain,

Check the amount of food he is being fed

A happy well adjusted dog eats what IT needs.

and the amount of exercise he is getting.

Exercise got nuthin to do with this.

You may also want to make sure that his thyroid
function is normal.

Thyroids go BAD cause of STRESS.

Post by Greg
It just seems to be bad medicine to do a procedure
or treatment where the beniefit/harm relationship
hasn't been clearly documented.

It's actually FRAUD and MALPRACTICE.

Except that there has been show the benefit
of decreased prostrate problems and a decrease
in a certain type of perianal adenomas with castration.

That so? You got better INFORMATION than
the studies Soup just provided stating EXXXACTLY
OPPOSITE of what you just said, you lying dog
abusing Nazi?

Of course castration also removes the chance
of testicular cancer.

You think?

Pubmed should be able to link you to articles
on those benefits.

You some kinda MENTAL CASE?

We've just been through all that and you've

Beth

NEUTERED MALES have the HIGHEST
RATE FOR PROSTATE CANCER
---------------------------------------------------

Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological
evidence of an increased risk in castrated dogs.

Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA.

Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals,
Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80.154, 3508 TD, Utrecht, The
Netherlands

The present retrospective study investigated the frequency
of prostate carcinoma (PCA) among prostate abnormalities in
dogs and determined whether castration influences the
incidence of PCA in dogs. During the years 1993-1998, 15363
male dogs were admitted to the Utrecht University Clinic of
Companion Animals, and of these dogs 225 were diagnosed
with prostatic disease. In addition, another 206 male dogs
were diagnosed as having prostatic disease based on
cytologic examination of aspiration biopsies submitted by
referring veterinarians. Benign prostatic hyperplasia was
diagnosed in 246 dogs (57.1%), prostatitis in 83 dogs
(19.3%), and PCA in 56 dogs (13%). Dogs with PCA were
significantly older (mean age=9.9 years) than dogs with
other prostatic diseases (mean age=8.4 years). The Bouvier
des Flandres breed had an increased risk (odds ratio
(OR)=8.44; 95% CI 4.38-16.1) of having PCA. Castration
(26/56) increased the risk (OR=4.34; 95% CI 2.48-7.62) of
PCA. The mean age at diagnosis of PCA in castrated dogs and
in intact male dogs was not significantly different. The
interval between castration and onset of prostatic problems
was highly variable, suggesting that castration does not
initiate the development of PCA in the dog, but it does
favour tumor progression.
------------------------------------------------

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-06 11:47:46 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY Greg,

In article

I'm here seeking SCIENTIFIC information

Well then, permit The Amazing Puppy Wizard
to don HIS scientific Wizard's hat.

one way or another.

Thanks. That's better NHOWE.

What "dehydration and blood loss?"

Occasionally surgical mutilation leads
to blood loss, infection and death.

I'm talking about a surgical procedure,

Yeah. We're talkin abHOWET surgical sexual mutilation.

not me hacking his testicles off with a knife!!

Right. The veterinary pet professional only
hacks through the scrotum with a knife.
The internal organs are just pulled HOWET
like you'd turn a octopus inside HOWET to
kill it. Then they sew IT back up and send
IT back to his HOWES and maybe give
some PAIN KILLERS for a few days, if you
get a decent vet. OtherWIZE they'll just tell
you it don't hurt.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
You mean, that dogs gain weight after inapupriate
unnecessary surgical sexual mutilation, Greg?

Well, I believe that I asked for scientific research

The Amazing Puppy Wizard is wearin HIS scientific
Wizardly closh.

about any association between weight loss and
castration- um -yep (I just re-read my post) that
is what I said.

Some dogs DIE as a result of inapupriate surgical mutilation.

There was no mention of "unnecessary sexual mutilation.

Oh? Perhaps The Amazing Scientific Wizard
needs to see an optometrist?

That is great!

Good. For a moment there, it looked like you
was losin focus. Seems the optometrist can wait.

Hard numbers.

Right. You mean the hard numbers that'll discredit
the "procedure" with FACTS that you won't be gettin
from the dog lovers and pet professional surgical
mutilators who's bread an butter revolve arHOWEND
SCAMMING PEOPLE FOR MONEY to surgically
mutilate dogs for the state or their "humane" associations
who endorse surgical mutilation and shocking choking
beating and murdering dogs to train them.

That is what I was asking for.

That's what you ain't gonna find.

Now do you have any controlled, possibly
blinded studies to justify that number?

The only thing The Amazing Puppy Wizard
has to offer is forty five years of field observation
EXXXPERIENCE and case histories.

By the way I said "blinded studies" meaning
the researchers didn't know which dog was
castrated.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard has seen C-HOWENTLESS
dogs surgically mutilated for no valid reason with no benefit,
who've become fear aggressive sick or dead as a direct result
of surgery.

It's all in The Amazing Puppy Wizard's Archives on Google.

I suspect that it would be hard to do a double
blind study since the dog's gonna know that he
had surgery.

Yeah. Some dogs show aggression
the first day after surgical mutilation.

Other dogs don't make it back to their HOWESES.

Still other dogs get infected and die a few days after.

Assuming that you can provide the reference
for that statistic,

The only INFORMATION you're gonna find
are the lies the industry wants you to believe.
There's NO scientific studies showing fear
aggression and death as a direct result of
this cruel and inapupriate surgical mutilation
cause NO WON WILL PAY FOR THE INFORMATION.

THAT'S SUMPTHIN YOU LEARN THE HARD WAY,
after YEARS of watching stupid ignorant misled dog
lovers surgically mutilate and murder their dogs, on
the advice of their veterinary pet professionals, Greg.

I hope the research and control group were
large enough to reach the 95% confidence interval -

The Amazing Puppy Wizard doesn't deny a
group of dogs or people INFORMATION in
order to perform BLIND studies in order to
justify and obtain research grants, Greg.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard gets 100% SUCCESS
NEARLY INSTANTLY. That substantiates every thing
The Amazaing Puppy Wizard SEZ is correct, or HE'D
not be able to train EVERY DOG the same same
same same way for many many years, Greg.

THAT'S SCIENCE. Not your dHOWEble blind
studies where one set of dogs and people are
given the real deal and the others are CON-TROLLS.

otherwise my kids will not be convinced one way or another.

If you want to CONvince your kids you'll
have to send them to university or tell them
the Easter Bunny stole their dogs testicles.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
You won't be gettin no straight answers, Greg.

Yea, well reading your post - I kind of got that feeling.

Decent people do not post here abHOWETS, Greg.
Perhaps you'd noticed that had you read HOWER forum.

I'm looking for dispassionate, scientifically justified

answers -

You mean from the industry who's bacon an eggs
revolve arHOWEND unnecessary inapupriate surgical
mutilation and faerie tails to keep you comin back.

We could talk abHOWET unnecessary inapupriate
innoculations, if you'd like. That's an area of scientific
study you'll be just as hard pressed to find FACTS
cause the GRAVY for the GRITS to go with their bacon
an eggs, is in inapupriate unnecessary injection of
toxins to prevent DIS-EASE.

not people's feelings on the matter.

Looks like FEELINS are all you got to work
with, unless you got forty five years of FIELD
OBSERVATION and EXXXPERIENCE.

Seems it's YOUR FEELINGS that would cause
you to DHOWET The Amazing Scientific Puppy
Wizard. You'll get used to it cause you're not a
coward who's gonna run cause you don't like
what you hear, and you're not a mental case
and you don't have a CAREER TO DEFEND.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
The veterinary community supports themselves
doin unnecessary inapupriate surgical mutilations.

It puts the jingle in their jeans, Greg. It buys
their wives fox and mink and vacations to
Hawaii and puts their kids in summer camps
special schools and sends them to the universities
they wanted to go to had their daddy been a
modern veterinarian.

Now see?

You disagree?

There you go again - interjecting your emotions

Emotions got NUTHIN to do with forty five years
of field observation and experience, Greg.

into the discussion.

What discussion? The Amazing Puppy Wizard
stated FACTS. There's no discussion.

"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow," John Wayne.

I'll agree

Goddamned tootin. The Amazing Puppy
Wizard doesn't rely on LUCK. "Luck is
for SUCKERS," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard doesn't post expecting
people to AGREE with HIM. If everyWON AGREED
with The Amazing Puppy Wizard HE could and would,
go elsewhere.

So for the meanwhile, The Amazing Puppy Wizard
will continue to post FACTS and the dog abusers
liars cowards incompetents and active long term
incurable mental cases and university professors
will scream bloody murder and WARN folks like
you to KILLFILE The Amazing Puppy Wizard.

that the procedure is inappropriate (by the way,
you spelled that word wrong),

INAPUPRIATE?

BWEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

SPELLIN is The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
strong suit... although HIS Nana often heelps
with the difficult spellin. Gramma always heelps
with The Amazing Puppy Wizard's SPELLIN,
when she's fit for it, poor old dear.

the the use of the word "mutilation" tips
the reader off to your obvious bias perspective.

RIGHT. The Amazing Puppy Wizard was being
GENERHOWES. That's probably on accHOWENT
of callin it MALPRACTICE and LARCENY would
be a little too strong to describe surgical mutilation.

Unless you was a VICTIM or an attorney.
Then we'd be ready to go to court, cause
we can PROVE it.

But not with SCIENTIFIC STUDIES by universities
who RELY on their graduate veterinarians unjustly
enriching themselves supplementing their incomes
through inapupriate unnecessary surgical mutilations.

The S/N hysteria seems very much like
the big toilet paper shortage scare back
in the seventies. Remember? People
thought they was gonna have to use
Sears catalogs and corn cobs if they
didn't rush HOWET and stock up.

You DO realize that this tends to discredit your answers,

Well Greg, The Amazing Puppy Wizard realizes
that only WON side of an issue can be correct.
If The Amazing Puppy Wizard is WRONG abHOWET
WON ISSUE he'll be WRONG abHOWET ALL ISSUES,
cause they're all based on the same same same same
forty five years of field observation and experience
specializing in temperament and behavior problems
in mostly giant breed workin dogs.

Seems the only WON showin EMOTION are those
whom The Amazing Puppy Wizard has IDENTIFIED
EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED as liars dog abusers
cowards and active long term incurable mental cases.

Where does Greg fit in? The Amazing Puppy
Wizard thinks Greg is EMBARRASSED at
having bought the big lie, the party line.

especially in light of your lack of objective research
references to back any claims that you make.

Oh. Well, then, The Amazing Puppy Wizard
will take HIS forty five years field experience
an observatin and just DISAPPEAR!!!!

*******WHOOOOOSH!!!*******

Ooops! That SPELL didn't work. Looks like
you'll just have to settle for respecting the
forty five years field experience that has
brought you the INFORMATION you need
to raise and train your dogs and children to
perfection and has cured all temperament
and behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY
and proven the university behaviorist to be
FRAUDS LIARS DOG ABUSERS and COWARDS.

But that's subjective Greg, as The Amazing
Puppy Wizard hasn't blinded any univerisity
professors and put them in a box an shocked
them till they come clean and tell us what we
need to hear from them, that they're FRAUDS.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
You won't be gettin the FACTS from your
veterinary association, Greg. We got the
fox guardin the chickens, Greg.

OK, finally we agree.

Well then Greg, let's work together instead
of fighting to defend HOWER outdated barbaric
beliefs. It's not like you got a REPUTATION to
DEFEND or a CAREER to PROTECT, like the
EXXXPERTS whom The Amazing Puppy
Wizard has DISCREDITED, Greg.

Look it up on Google.

You won't see the EXXXPERTS talkin business
with The Amazing Puppy Wizard cause that'd be
professional SUICIDE.

Who the heel do you think CERTIFIES shock and
pronged spiked pinch choke collars and GL necktwisters and advise
us offering bribes to fear aggressive dogs is
safe and effective?

The VETERINARY UNIVERSITIES and
US and AMERICAN HUMANE ASSOCIATIONS.

That profession does seem to have a vested
interest in selling the surgery.

Well Greg, it goes far beyond them. They're
only CAPITALIZING on the rabid S/N Nazi party
promoting mutilating and murdering innocent
dumb animals they've taught us to jerk choke
shock and lock in boxes till we gotta MURDER
them so they can GET PAID to RESCUE them
and DO the dirty work of MURDERIN them instead
of PROTECTING animals by teachin folks HOWE
to train and handle their pets withHOWET HURTIN
bribing intimdiating and murdering them cause THEY
DON'T KNOW HOWE cause the descartean university
trained dog abusers don't know HOWE and will do
and say ANY THING to defend their fraudulent, undeserved
sheepskins.

THAT'S THE FACTS.

I'm not sure that all of them would though -
some of them have to be very ethical people.

Yeah? You think they're settin arHOWEND their
university classrooms paid for by research grants
by pharmacutical companies and dog food makers
learnin the truth abHOWET surgical mutilation and
the political goals of the S/N party?

Most of them have been DUPED, just like yourself,
by unethical FRAUDS lookin to get grant money to
piss away doin imbecile work to defend their false
teachings and keep their ivy covered T-HOWERS, green.

They may even believe that they are doing the right thing.

INDEED. They've bought into the big lie as taught
to them by the universities who've been PAID OFF
to keep the status quo and defend their descartean
abuse of animals funded by their research grants to
abuse animals in the name of education. Like
DHOWEBLE BLIND STUDES, for EXXXAMPLE.

They'll do and say anything to defend their sheepskins,
including HIDE from The Amazing Puppy Wizard like
Adam done in The Garden and tell you to KILLFILE HIM
like the snake done cause HE has DISCREDITED THEM.

I just want to see some hard data supporting
or refuting the benefits/health risks.

When The Amazing Puppy Wizard is faced with
a dilemma, HE always asks HISSELF WON
QUESTION: "NINNYBOY, WOULD YOU BET
YOUR GODDAMNED LIFE ON THAT?"

And the correct answer always appears,
clear HOWETA the blue, almost as if by
freakin MAGICK.

By the way - -you might want to stop using
people's names in every sentence.

HOWE COME? It works for The Amazing Puppy
Wizard but it probably won't work for others cause
it ain't SCIENTIFIC like The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

It does not make you look any smrarter or authoritative.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard has CURED ALL
temperament and behaviors problems NEARLY
INSTANTLY and teaches HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students
all over the Whole Wild World to achieve total non
physical control NEARLY INSTANTLY by NOT DOIN
all those things the SMRARTER an MOORE authorative
EXXXPERTS tell you to do to your dogs.

FOR FREE.

It's annoying and makes us want to ignore you.

Naaah. What's ANNOYIN and makes you
want to run an hide is The Amazing Puppy
Wizard proves you to be a imbecile when
you question HIS WIZEdom.

Of curse, the alternative would be HE'D prove
you to be a liar a coward a dog abuser and a
mental case.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard would recommend
you opt for the title of IMBECILE goin through
a learnin curve on his way to enlightenment.

---Your not a "troll" are you?

Ask professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM
'NO!' into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in
a box for ten minutes reflection" dermer, research
associate in the department of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM
at UofWI:

HOWEDY BigB,

Post by The Puppy Wizard
1. Manage so that the chance

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn means
force control and HOPE for LUCK.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
of the unwanted behavior never arises,

THAT WOULD DISAVAIL YOU OF TRAINING
OPPORTUNITIES. Wouldn't it, dog trainers?

This would be the use of extinction which can
work on most dogs but not 100%.

That so? CITES PLEASE? Have you read
"Misbehavior Of Organisms?"

The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ you
don't know nuthin abHOWET non physical
trainin techniques or you'd NEVER do
what you do to "train" dogs.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
3. invent new language to avoid using
"punishment" to describe what
they are actually doing.

THAT'S INSANE.

We're DONE playin word twister.

This is why I feel

FEELINS ain't got NUTHIN to do with this.

that PURE positives don't exist.

Well then, that's all we need to know
abHOWET your ABILITY KNOWLEDGE
EXXXPERTISE and LACK OF SUCCESS
based on your lack of knowledge expertise
and ability.

You cannot use "Pure Positive" training
if you're bribing choking crating spraying
aversives forcing control managing and
avoiding the cunning behaviors of the
domestic puppy dog you don't have the
intellect to HOWEtwit.

You're talkin abHOWET STUFF you've
ADMITTED DOESN'T WORK cause
YOU DON'T KNOW NUTTHIN abHOWET it.

Because they were taught to use a different
word or language they have no idea that they
are punishing.

Lemme get this straight. You're discussin
sumpthin you ADMIT you know NUTHIN
abHOWET BASED ON YOUR RESULTS,
with a PROVEN LYING DOG ABUSING
LONG TERM ACTIVE INCURABLE MENTAL
CASE and making a rational agreement that
what NEITHER OF YOU KNOWS NUTHIN
abHOWET, cannot work, and BLAMING REAL
DOG TRAINERS who NEVER DO what YOU
ALWAYS DO, are USING THE WRONG WORDS?

SomeWON is LYING.

Who is it, BigB?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students have a PROVEN TRACK RECORD
of CONSISTENT 100% NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL CONTROL using NON PHYSICAL
SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL POSITIVE
TRAINING METHODS which you know NUTHIN
abHOWET or you wouldn't DARE TALK BUSINESS
with these cretins.

If they were educated they would realize
they use it often.

No. You're a liar or a mental case.

Or you're just plain mistaken.

You're NEW here abHOWETS. The
Amazing Puppy Wizard will allHOWE
that you're GRAVELY MISTAKEN rather
than lying or that you're INSANE... But
that ain't gonna work for much longer
cause The Amazing Puppy Wizard
doesn't entertrain dog abuser liiars
cowards or mental cases. But HE
IS willin to throw pearls to swine,
perhaps WON of them will pick it up.

I call myself a Positive trainer
but I also use punishment....

The Amazing Puppy Wizard calls you
a hypocrite and a fraud... either that,
or you're a liar or a mental case.

Looks like you've MAXXXED HOWET
the extent of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's HOWEspitality here on The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Forum.

just not harsh punishments such as slapping, hitting, etc.

IOW, you've set limits of abuse that you tolerate
and rely on? You've defined the grey line between
abuse and kindness? You've decided which punishments
are GOOD and which are BAD?

Ain't THAT HOWE COME Adam an Eve got
thrown the heel HOWETA The Garden?

We've been through all this bullshit before, BigB.
You're startin it again with your blatant ignorance
and self defensiveness. IN FACT, you're willin to
ADMIT that you punish dogs cause you can't defend
your statement that you're a so called positive trainer
cause like you're sayin 'THERE AIN'T NO SUCH
CRITTER.'

Well, The Amazing Puppy Wizard calls THAT,
INSANITY OR FRAUD.

Most other positive trainers I know use R and P often as well.

Then you've got to cholose a NEW WORD that
will allHOWE for you to HURT and INTIMIDATE
DENY and WITHHOLD affection and attention
and PUNISH dogs and STILL SHOWEND like
you're NOT DOIN what YOU'RE DOIN.

IOW, you can't post your lies and bullshit here noMOORE.

It is the choice of tools and punishers that make positive
trainers different from traditional trainers not the lack of
punishment.

THAT'S INSANE. HOWE can you DEFEND such hypocrisy?

I don't have a problem with these trainers using a
word or language to describe the punishment they
use as long as they are well aware that they are
using punishment.

RIGHT. THAT'S HOWE COME THEIR METHODS FAIL.

Bribery avoidance and crating are not trainin.

But that would be the difference in an educated
trainer and one who isn't.

You're a FRAUD. Or a MENTAL CASE.

Or BOTH. Care to PICK WON?

It's still not too late to ADMIT that you
was just PLAIN MISTAKEN. Ain't no
CRIME to bein WRONG, unless you
try to cover it up and rationalize it,
cause that'd be INSANE, ESPECIALLY
while under the watchful mother hen
like eyes of The Amazing Puppy Wizard.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
And "positive", "negative", "command", etc.. The tortured
language used to deny usage of all of those perfectly
acceptable terms in an OC sense can get ridiculous.

What's rediculHOWES is a LYING DOG ABUSING
LONG TERM ACTIVE INCURABLE MENTAL CASE
who RUINED her own SELECTIVELY BRED HAND
PICKED and TESTED SAR dog JIVE.

Talk to her abHOWET JIVE, BigB. GO AHEAD.

Jive gets HIGH SCORES in the ring cause
he KNOWS he'll be HURT if he doesn't yet
he KNOWS he can't be hurt on a real life
SAR site cause HIS ABUSER don't know
WHEN to HURT him.

That's HOWE COME the "SAR" dogs in
the Chandra Levy and Elizabeth Smart
cases NEVER MADE their FINDS.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
It can also lead to some pretty humorous exchanges.

Yeah. Like the Dianne Whipple case. Them
dogs went HOWETA CONTROL cause the
trainers taught the owners to mishandle their
dogs, not cause the dogs was BAD. They was
PERFECT. Their TRAINING caused them to
MURDER and got them DEAD. The SAME
KIND of "TRAINING" that provoked leah's
"RECENT GRADUATE" Rottie to murder a
little dog in the park.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
For example, someone recently said on one list "It's a
little too late to be thinking about positive reinforcement
when your herding dog has a sheep's leg in his mouth."

Well, the dog wouldn't ATTACK the sheep if you
TRAINED IT to BE NICE like leah roberts done
for that GRATEFUL GRADUATE STUDENT Rottie
who murders little dogs in the park cause IT has
been ABUSED by an incompetent dog abusing
MENTAL CASE.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
That led to posts (from people who have never herded)

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn "RETIRED" her SELECTIVELY
BRED HAND PICKED and TESTED SAR dog JIVE and
brought him back UN SUCCESSFULLY to "work sheep."

CuriHOWES ain't it, that she's got the same same
same same problems controling her HOWETA
CONTROL dog in a sheep trial if she can't BURN
IT with her SHOCK COLLAR that she had on SAR
sites.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
claiming all herding training should be done by clicker,

Clicker training is idiocy. So's this.

Here's lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's PARTNER:

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

Post by The Puppy Wizard
any dog that would grip sheep must be reacting to the
stress of abusive training,

THAT'S CORRECT. VIOLENCE IS LEARNED.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
training is started by using physical contact with
stock as the reward, and other equally funny notions.

You mean, like beatin dogs in the face with a shepherd's crook?:

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?

Or did lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn mean jerking
and choking a new foster care dog to make IT feel
safe an sHOWEND?:

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
If ignorance is bliss, the pper's are one joyful lot.

Only when we're discussing non violent trainin
with a lying dog abusing mental case whom we
can QUOTE HURTING and MURDERING dogs
and LYING abHOWET it:

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos (***@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

Lynn K. wrote:

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.
---------------------------------

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

Post by The Puppy Wizard

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?

------------------------------------------

Here's lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's PARTNER:

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

And here's a few MOORE of HOWER Gang
Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Coward
And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss

Post by The Puppy Wizard

I can't imagine needing anything higher
than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

Post by The Puppy Wizard
I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Jerking choking and shockin and lockin dogs
in boxes and ignoring their cries makes their
dogs go "EWWWW" but they don't NOTICE
EXXXCEPT to spray BINACA in their eyes
and jerk and choke them on pronged spiked
pinch choke collars and shock and spray MOORE
aversives in their faces.

Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL cause
the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's been sprayed
in the face and the dog won't know HOWE COME
IT was MACED?

Post by The Puppy Wizard
My dogs are not human children wearing
fur- they are DOGS.

They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL
LYING DOG ABUSERS HURT and MURDER.

Post by The Puppy Wizard
Even if there is no chance in hell their
dogs will actually get to herd :-)

Let's talk abHOWET lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn's SELECTIVELY BRED HAND PICKED
and TESTED SAR dog JIVE?

BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Ii hope you are not lumping ALL positive trainers

YOU MEAN POSITVE TRAINERS LIKE YOURSELF
WHO RELY ON VARIHOWES FORMS OF PUNISHMENT
USING A VARIETY OF WORDS?

into this category

Which category?

Liars, dog abusers and mental cases OR FRAUDS?

Either TAKE YOUR PICK or admit you know
NUTHIN abHOWET "positive trainin" and admit
that you're a gentle punishing trainer or whatever
WORDS you choose, so long as you're no longer
LYING or committing FRAUD or forcin The Amazing
Puppy Wizard to PROVE that you're INSANE.

because not all are like that.

Like WHAT? LIARS DOG ABUSERS FRAUDS or INSANE?

I do agree that there are some out there who do not
have balance because they have moved to far to one
end of the spectrum.

Well, you just PUSHED WON of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's HOT buttons, BigB. So called BALANCED
TRAINERS are lying dog abusing FRAUDS.

Better to be a GENTLE PUNISHER than a LIAR
DOG ABUSER COWARD and MENTAL CASE

Ain't it, BigB?

Here's what we're dealin with. We got good folks
like yourself who've been struggling all their career
to do what you'll NEVER be able to do cause every
thing you though you knew is BULLSHIT, Vs dog
abusing lying cowards and mental cases who'll do
and say ANY THING to defend their alleged right
to hurt and murder dogs to compensate for their
fragile defective egos, inferiority complexes, weak
fearful minds and protect their false undeserved
self proclaimed worthless reputations:

WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)
requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every
day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn
more, while happily sharing pertinent information
I have learned. But if I were ever to post such sh*t,
I would hope that every other reader of this group
would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn
the right to participate in by observing the
easily understood rules and contributing to in
constructive ways."

Lynn K.

-----------------------------------------

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------

"Speech is a mirror of the soul: as a man speaks,
so is he." Publilius Syrus, First century B.C., Maxim 1073

"We are what we do."

From: Marshall Dermer (***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

Post by The Puppy Wizard
While the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the dog
does next (the common advice is to praise once
the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least
stopped the unwanted behaviour), this is unique
to Jerry (and Marilyn) and from my own experiences
is an important part of the process.

Thanks Paul! He does recommend praising
a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
that this may not work and so distraction

Post by The Puppy Wizard

==============

There really is NOTHING new about the advice above!

Nuthin EXXXCEPT HOWE IT'S DONE.

Sound distraction may be understood in
terms of the more general behavior analytic
approach as follows.
The distracting stimulus

Like a SCRUFF SHAKE, professor?

evokes a behavior that is incompatible with barking.

You mean like SCREAMING "NO!" into ITS face
for 5 seconds?

The dog engages in some other behavior

NO, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.

THAT AIN'T HOWE IT WORKS.

and then is reinforced (if praise functions as a
reinforcer).

NO, professor. You don't UNDERSTAND the METHOD.

--Marshal

ANAL-yize THIS, professor SCRUFF SHAKE:

Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research
at UofWI marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM
"NO!" into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a
box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

******IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?*******

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works."

That's HOWE COME your dog has OCD behaviors
and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

And The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ you
can't post here abHOWETS noMOORE
cause you're a liar and a dog abuser and
a coward and a MENTAL CASE.

Here's HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard teaches
HIS FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual Students to train their critters NEARLY
INSTANTLY.

New Law Of Physics

HOWEDY People,

"The amount of misery and difficulty a dog abuser
has from their dogs is directly proportionate to the
number of times they've WARNED people to KILLFILE
Jerry and not study your FREE copy of The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual..."

"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of
Behavior Never Change, Or They'd Not Be
Scientific And Would Not Obtain Consistent,
Reliable, Fast, Effective Results For All Handler's
And All Dogs, NEARLY INSTANTLY, As Taught
In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual."

The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >

Here's Disciple Paulie:

Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands
How Wits End Training Really Works, They
Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't Realise
It's A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With
Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built On
Trust And Understanding."

Disciple Paulie Writes:

I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell
them they are good dogs and they seem to
follow me, once I told them they were bad dogs
and they ran away from me, now I only ever tell
them they are good dogs and they always are, always.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say
"good dog" sincerely at the end of the request and
I bet you'll find your dog thinking then responding
everytime.

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.

Paul.

========================

Here's a couple of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students tellin you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY

From: Paul B (***@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Paul.

========================

The Puppy Wizard. <TPW{}; ~ } >

The Puppy Wizard

2004-07-06 16:30:27 UTC

Permalink

HOWEDY Greg,

In article

I'm here seeking SCIENTIFIC information

Perhaps this'll heelp:

HOWEDY stacy,

Will having my 7 month old male dog fixed calm him down?

Subject: NEUTERING

"IF YOUR EYE OFFENDS YOU, CUT IT HOWET."

He likes to run off if he gets out of the house or the yard...

Your dog is hyperactive and HOWETA CON-TROLL
and tries to ESCAPE for the same same same same
reason your friend metta aka kelly aka culprit's dogs
just murdered her dead kat and attcked each other
and escape her shock fence and ran into her neighbor's
HOWES for protection.

and hes too young and too little to be out there..

You need to learn HOWE to pupperly handle
and train him, not surgically mutilate IT cause
you and your ignorant lying dog abusing mentally
ill pals don't have the intellect to HOWEtwit the
cunning of the domestic puppy dog.

Im scared he will be hit by a car...

Your PALS like to advise new mental cases
who post here to shock their dogs to contrain
them:

"misty" <***@webtv.net wrote in message news: 16990-3CAB1F8C-***@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...

I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive.
I do know she's not here with us.

I really can't blame anyone here for her loss.

I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it
because of how you write/wrote.

I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a
shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not
wanting to stay home.

Up until I started using it my main concern had
been keeping my dogs in their own yard.

Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my
concern became how to keep them from running
off for days on end.

I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled
in the anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.

I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the
world now <g> A Wits End Trained dog, one
who is completely housetrained, doesn't chew
up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all
the time. IOW a great companion and friend.

Thanks Jerry!

=====================

Im hoping that getting him fixed

You mean surgically mutilating him on
the 50%/50% CHANCE it'll "calm" him
so you can control IT.

THAT'S INSANE. No WONder the PeTA folks
are beginin to look like they got the right idea.
Dog abusers don't deserve to hurt mutilate
and intimidate animals for their own cruel
amusement.

will solve his wanting to explore farther away from home

Your dog wants to ESCAPE cause you abuse him.

than is ok to do....

HOWE FAR is "O.K." for him to "explore?"

any personal experiences with this?

Yeah. When new readers post here it's
cause they're ready to HURT and INTIMIDATE
and MURDER their dogs if necessary cause
they can't stop hurtin and intimidating them.

I have him scheduled for surgery this week.

You're an idiot. Surgical mutilation is NOT
apupriate harmless or effective for CON-TROLLING
behavior problems you cause on accHOWENT
of you're a natural born coward and abuser.

Thanks in advance,

BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!

Stacy
Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
come forward and actually believe in his training manual.

And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
actually admit to buying and having success with his
little black box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.

Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
to him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

Terri

Thanks Paul! He does recommend praising
a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
that this may not work and so distraction

Post by The Puppy Wizard

==============

There really is NOTHING new about the advice above!

Nuthin EXXXCEPT HOWE IT'S DONE.

Sound distraction may be understood in
terms of the more general behavior analytic
approach as follows.
The distracting stimulus

Like a SCRUFF SHAKE, professor?

evokes a behavior that is incompatible with barking.

You mean like SCREAMING "NO!" into ITS face
for 5 seconds?

The dog engages in some other behavior

NO, professor SCRUFF SHAKE.

THAT AIN'T HOWE IT WORKS.

and then is reinforced (if praise functions as a
reinforcer).

NO, professor. You don't UNDERSTAND the METHOD.

--Marshal