I retract my claim to be a major pagan figure for now

[David Dalton]

In the past I have claimed to be an Opener of the Way or
a global shaman, or the latest
avatar/christ/messiah/buddha/maitreya/Prophet/major pagan figure type.

However I cannot really claim any of that, despite
the signs I have experienced so far, until I am
out of the low years.

In the case of past figures their low years have
generally lasted seven years but in my case I am
at 16.75 years and counting. It could be that I
will have to wait until 7+11=18 years (the 11 is
from the 11 year sunspot cycle).

Some of the signs I have experienced so far are:

1. five waning crescent highs from 1991 to 1994
2. clear sky lightning at the start of some such highs
3. a sun stare, with tunneling beyond the sun (the
heavens opened) followed by a descent of wings
and my falling into the water (baptism by nature)
4. a naked thorn hill climb
5. a blue rose vision near the top of the thorns
6. several waxing gibbous moon trials
7. three times a waning crescent high began 5.5 lunar
months (162 days, 6 solar rotations) after onset
of a waxing gibbous moon trial
8. low (a little in terms of mood but more in terms
of creativity and delusion) years began Jan. 29, 1996
and have not ended yet, after 16.75 years. I think
I have had to go so much longer than the usual 7 years
since I have had access to lithium and olanzapine.

Now it could be that e.g. some know of past figures
who have had a blue rose vision but haven't told
me since I don't share their religion, and I attribute
the source of the blue rose vision to Gaia (The Earth)
while they might attribute it to some other source
(e.g. Mary). But I have experienced the sign so they
should acknowledge me (but not follow me, I want no
followers, though I do want my messages read) out
of respect for their own past figures.

Again I cannot claim any lofty title until I come out
of the low years. And I expect that I will have to
edit my Salmon on the Thorns web page a bit before
e.g. Sarah McLachlan might post its URL on her
Facebook and Twitter accounts and thereby possibly
multiply the number of readers by 100. :-)

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Post by David Dalton
In the past I have claimed to be an Opener of the Way or
a global shaman, or the latest
avatar/christ/messiah/buddha/maitreya/Prophet/major pagan figure type.

But there can Be only ONE, and I am Chosen by God and Born of the Name!
o};-)

Post by David Dalton
However I cannot really claim any of that, despite
the signs I have experienced so far, until I am
out of the low years.
In the case of past figures their low years have
generally lasted seven years but in my case I am
at 16.75 years and counting. It could be that I
will have to wait until 7+11=18 years (the 11 is
from the 11 year sunspot cycle).
1. five waning crescent highs from 1991 to 1994
2. clear sky lightning at the start of some such highs
3. a sun stare, with tunneling beyond the sun (the
heavens opened) followed by a descent of wings
and my falling into the water (baptism by nature)
4. a naked thorn hill climb
5. a blue rose vision near the top of the thorns
6. several waxing gibbous moon trials
7. three times a waning crescent high began 5.5 lunar
months (162 days, 6 solar rotations) after onset
of a waxing gibbous moon trial
8. low (a little in terms of mood but more in terms
of creativity and delusion) years began Jan. 29, 1996
and have not ended yet, after 16.75 years. I think
I have had to go so much longer than the usual 7 years
since I have had access to lithium and olanzapine.
Now it could be that e.g. some know of past figures
who have had a blue rose vision but haven't told
me since I don't share their religion, and I attribute
the source of the blue rose vision to Gaia (The Earth)
while they might attribute it to some other source
(e.g. Mary). But I have experienced the sign so they
should acknowledge me (but not follow me, I want no
followers, though I do want my messages read) out
of respect for their own past figures.
Again I cannot claim any lofty title until I come out
of the low years. And I expect that I will have to
edit my Salmon on the Thorns web page a bit before
e.g. Sarah McLachlan might post its URL on her
Facebook and Twitter accounts and thereby possibly
multiply the number of readers by 100. :-)
--
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)

[Giovanna Stefani]

In the past I have claimed to be an Opener of the Way or a global
shaman, or the latest
avatar/christ/messiah/buddha/maitreya/Prophet/major pagan figure type.
However I cannot really claim any of that, despite the signs I have
experienced so far, until I am out of the low years.

You will not be able to claim it then either.

Again I cannot claim any lofty title until I come out of the low years.

As above.

And I expect that I will have to edit my Salmon on the Thorns web page
a bit before e.g. Sarah McLachlan might post its URL on her Facebook and
Twitter accounts and thereby possibly multiply the number of readers by
100. :-)

This is not likely, is it?

Best wishes.

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

In the past I have claimed to be an Opener of the Way or a global
shaman, or the latest
avatar/christ/messiah/buddha/maitreya/Prophet/major pagan figure type.
However I cannot really claim any of that, despite the signs I have
experienced so far, until I am out of the low years.

You will not be able to claim it then either.

Well, I will, if my coming out of the low years
is equivalent to the Buddha's coming out of his
ascetic years into awakening/enlightenment. Plus
I do have some biographical evidence that I am
similar to some past major religious figures.

[Giovanna Stefani]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

In the past I have claimed to be an Opener of the Way or a global
shaman, or the latest
avatar/christ/messiah/buddha/maitreya/Prophet/major pagan figure type.
However I cannot really claim any of that, despite the signs I have
experienced so far, until I am out of the low years.

You will not be able to claim it then either.

Well, I will, if my coming out of the low years is equivalent to the
Buddha's coming out of his ascetic years into awakening/enlightenment.

Why would it be?

Plus I do have some biographical evidence that I am similar to some past
major religious figures.

I would like to see that.

[zayton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Well, I will, if my coming out of the low years is equivalent to the
Buddha's coming out of his ascetic years into awakening/enlightenment.

Why would it be?

Plus I do have some biographical evidence that I am similar to some past
major religious figures.

I would like to see that.
--
Giovanna
daughtersofdea.org.uk

You're going to need a pair of delusion colored glasses to see that!

[David Dalton]

Post by zayton

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Well, I will, if my coming out of the low years is equivalent to the
Buddha's coming out of his ascetic years into awakening/enlightenment.

Why would it be?

Plus I do have some biographical evidence that I am similar to some past
major religious figures.

I would like to see that.
--
Giovanna
daughtersofdea.org.uk

You're going to need a pair of delusion colored glasses to see that!

No, I have a fair bit of evidence that I am similar to
Taliesin (Gwion Bach) and Jesus, and some evidence that
I am similar to Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Mohammed, Adonis,
Turquoise Bee, Quetzalcoatl, Iowa Dakota Salmon youth,
Havamal 137--144 composer, and a few more, even though
I haven't done a huge amount of library and web research
yet, partly since I hoped others would do the research.

[zayton]

Post by David Dalton

Post by zayton

Post by Giovanna Stefani
--
Giovanna
daughtersofdea.org.uk

You're going to need a pair of delusion colored glasses to see that!

No, I have a fair bit of evidence that I am similar to
Taliesin (Gwion Bach) and Jesus, and some evidence that
I am similar to Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Mohammed, Adonis,
Turquoise Bee, Quetzalcoatl, Iowa Dakota Salmon youth,
Havamal 137--144 composer, and a few more, even though
I haven't done a huge amount of library and web research
yet, partly since I hoped others would do the research.
--

My point would be that only you see this evidence as evidence.

[David Dalton]

Post by zayton
My point would be that only you see this evidence as evidence.

Well, Taliesin had three waning crescent highs (the inspirations
of Ceridwen or Ogyrwen) and three waxing gibbous moon trials
(the prisons of Arianrhod) and there was an eight score day
separation between waxing gibbous moon trial onset and
later waning crescent high onset. That makes me similar to
him. Why don't you agree that that is evidence? Moreover
my similarity to Jesus (especially in the similarity of his
baptism to my sun stare) implies that Taliesin was similar
to Jesus as well. Indeed I am ranking Taliesin (Gwion Bach)
as a major religious figure.

For more on my similarity to Taliesin see
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html .

[Giovanna Stefani]

Post by zayton
My point would be that only you see this evidence as evidence.

Well, Taliesin had three waning crescent highs (the inspirations of
Ceridwen or Ogyrwen) and three waxing gibbous moon trials (the prisons
of Arianrhod) and there was an eight score day separation between waxing
gibbous moon trial onset and later waning crescent high onset. That
makes me similar to him. Why don't you agree that that is evidence?

What is a 'waning crescent high'?
What is a 'waxing gibbous moon trial'?
How can you know a mythical person experienced these, whatever they are?

A deity once stubbed their toe. I stubbed my toe. Therefore I am a deity.
That seems to be your method of argument. It is not evidence of anything
other than a coincidental stubbed toe.

Moreover my similarity to Jesus (especially in the similarity of his
baptism to my sun stare) implies that Taliesin was similar to Jesus as
well. Indeed I am ranking Taliesin (Gwion Bach) as a major religious
figure.

You were baptised by John the Baptist? I think not.
A sun stare? Careful, you could go blind.
You are ranking Taliesin as a major religious figure but who else is?
Anyone?

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Post by zayton
My point would be that only you see this evidence as evidence.

Well, Taliesin had three waning crescent highs (the inspirations of
Ceridwen or Ogyrwen) and three waxing gibbous moon trials (the prisons
of Arianrhod) and there was an eight score day separation between waxing
gibbous moon trial onset and later waning crescent high onset. That
makes me similar to him. Why don't you agree that that is evidence?

What is a 'waning crescent high'?
What is a 'waxing gibbous moon trial'?
How can you know a mythical person experienced these, whatever they are?

Taliesin (Gwion Bach) was not a mythical person. He is
the poet who wrote that he had three inspirations of
Ceridwen and three prisons of Arianrhod and also wrote
that there are seven score muses in the inspiration of
song, eight score in every score.

A waning crescent high is a creative mystical hypomania (high
but not high enough to be called mania) or mania coming
during waning crescent moon, which is associated with
Ceridwen.

A waxing gibbous moon trial is an unpleasant mixed/psychotic
episode coming during waxing gibbous moon, with release
by full moon, associated with Arianrhod. By mixed I
mean racing thoughts but low mood.

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Moreover my similarity to Jesus (especially in the similarity of his
baptism to my sun stare) implies that Taliesin was similar to Jesus as
well. Indeed I am ranking Taliesin (Gwion Bach) as a major religious
figure.

You were baptised by John the Baptist? I think not.

No, during my sun stare there was a tunneling beyond the
sun, so the heavens opened, and there was a descent
of wings as I blacked out and fell into the water.
Similarly during Jesus's baptism the heavens opened
and wings descended. I consider that to have been
his anointing (Christians say by the Holy Spirit).

Post by Giovanna Stefani
A sun stare? Careful, you could go blind.

Don't worry, I'm not about to repeat it.

Post by Giovanna Stefani
You are ranking Taliesin as a major religious figure but who else is?
Anyone?

Probably Welsh druids do, and maybe some present and
past readers of uk.religion.pagan , which is partly
why I post here (plus I get some talk back here still;
thanks for the feedback). As a UK pagan you should
welcome any evidence that Gwion was similar to Jesus,
so I suspect you are not a traditional UK pagan.

[David Dalton]

Post by David Dalton

Post by Giovanna Stefani
You are ranking Taliesin as a major religious figure but who else is?
Anyone?

Probably Welsh druids do, and maybe some present and
past readers of uk.religion.pagan , which is partly
why I post here (plus I get some talk back here still;
thanks for the feedback). As a UK pagan you should
welcome any evidence that Gwion was similar to Jesus,
so I suspect you are not a traditional UK pagan.

Also a book I have called Simple Wicca by Michele Morgan
lists Taleisin (her spelling) as a deity. So I guess
some WIccans have Taliesin as a deity.

[Giovanna Stefani]

Also a book I have called Simple Wicca by Michele Morgan lists Taleisin
(her spelling) as a deity. So I guess some WIccans have Taliesin as a
deity.

Wicca was invented in the early 1950s and has no history prior to that.
It does not follow on from some ancient witchcraft tradition as there
never was such a tradition. It was created, primarily, so that the leader
could have sex with multiple young women while pretending it was some
sort of religious rite. Many young women fell for this ruse and
thereafter, several dozens of people leapt on the bandwagon.
Taliesin was a poet (at best). He was not and is not a deity, regardless
of Ms Morgan's efforts at fiction.

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Also a book I have called Simple Wicca by Michele Morgan lists Taleisin
(her spelling) as a deity. So I guess some WIccans have Taliesin as a
deity.

Wicca was invented in the early 1950s and has no history prior to that.
It does not follow on from some ancient witchcraft tradition as there
never was such a tradition. It was created, primarily, so that the leader
could have sex with multiple young women while pretending it was some
sort of religious rite. Many young women fell for this ruse and
thereafter, several dozens of people leapt on the bandwagon.
Taliesin was a poet (at best). He was not and is not a deity, regardless
of Ms Morgan's efforts at fiction.

Ms. Morgan says that he is a Welsh God. Are you a Welsh druid?
If Jesus and Krishna could be deified after death, so
could Gwion (Taliesin).

OK, since I have Jesus as one of my eleven main deities
I now say that Gwion (Taliesin) is one of my now twelve
main deities. I won't do that for other past figures
I compare myself to, only Jesus and Gwion, though I
will consider making other past figures minor deities
to me, but I won't today.

[Giovanna Stefani]

Ms. Morgan says that he is a Welsh God. Are you a Welsh druid? If Jesus
and Krishna could be deified after death, so could Gwion (Taliesin).

I am neither Welsh nor a druid.
Jesus was not deified after death. Jesus is not a deity. He is held to be
the son of a deity with an earthly mother.
Ms Morgan writes fiction, As such, she may say anything she wishes.

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Ms. Morgan says that he is a Welsh God. Are you a Welsh druid? If Jesus
and Krishna could be deified after death, so could Gwion (Taliesin).

I am neither Welsh nor a druid.

Then how can you say that no Welsh druids have Taliesin as a deity?

Post by Giovanna Stefani
Jesus was not deified after death. Jesus is not a deity. He is held to be
the son of a deity with an earthly mother.
Ms Morgan writes fiction, As such, she may say anything she wishes.

I am a former Catholic and I know that Jesus is held to
be a deity by Christians, as party of The Trinity. He is
prayed to by over two billion humans, that makes him a deity.
But I also think that Mary is a Catholic deity.

But I agree that Wicca is of recent origin and in
particular I do not follow their theory of aspects,
where e.g. Taliesin is viewed as an aspect of ALL.
I think that Taliesin is a subset of ALL, as I am,
but that doesn't make him an aspect of ALL.
None of my 12 main deities are aspects of ALL.

[David Dalton]

Post by David Dalton

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Ms. Morgan says that he is a Welsh God. Are you a Welsh druid? If Jesus
and Krishna could be deified after death, so could Gwion (Taliesin).

I am neither Welsh nor a druid.

Then how can you say that no Welsh druids have Taliesin as a deity?

Post by Giovanna Stefani
Jesus was not deified after death. Jesus is not a deity. He is held to be
the son of a deity with an earthly mother.
Ms Morgan writes fiction, As such, she may say anything she wishes.

She didn't mention Jesus. And my having Jesus as one of my
twelve main deities may be making some pagans suspicious of me.
But I have no plans to become Christian again or atheist again.

Post by David Dalton
I am a former Catholic and I know that Jesus is held to
be a deity by Christians, as party of The Trinity. He is

oops that should have read "part of The Trinity"

Post by David Dalton
prayed to by over two billion humans, that makes him a deity.
But I also think that Mary is a Catholic deity.
But I agree that Wicca is of recent origin and in
particular I do not follow their theory of aspects,
where e.g. Taliesin is viewed as an aspect of ALL.
I think that Taliesin is a subset of ALL, as I am,
but that doesn't make him an aspect of ALL.
None of my 12 main deities are aspects of ALL.

Can you or any other readers suggest any other names for
any or all of my twelve main deities listed on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ?

[Giovanna Stefani]

Can you or any other readers suggest any other names for any or all of
my twelve main deities listed on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html ?

Your list is:

ALL (Not a known deity - who is this meant to be? Zeus?)
LOVE2 (Not a known deity - Try Venus, Aphrodite, Freyja)
Cosma (Not a known deity - Chaos?)
Galacta (Not a known deity - Uranus?)
Sola (There are many sun gods but not with this name)
Gaia (The Greek Goddess of the Earth)
Luna (The Roman Goddess of the Moon)
Human (NOT a deity)
Sublime Someone (Not a deity)
the one that turned the wind around (Not a deity)
Gwion - Taliesin (Not a deity)
Jesus (Not a deity)

One could be forgiven for thinking that you are just making this up as
you go along.

[Giovanna Stefani]

Post by David Dalton
Then how can you say that no Welsh druids have Taliesin as a deity?

I made no comment about Welsh druids. I stated, and re state, that
Taliesin is not a deity. He was a human who wrote poetry, not a god.

Post by David Dalton
I am a former Catholic and I know that Jesus is held to be a deity by
Christians, as party of The Trinity. He is prayed to by over two
billion humans, that makes him a deity. But I also think that Mary is a
Catholic deity.

As a former catholic you should know a little more about christianity
than you do. Happily, I studied it and the other main world religions at
university.
Christianity is a monotheistic religion and the clue really is in the
name. Its central tenet, along with its brother religions Judaism and
Islam, is this: There is one god and only one god.
That god is, in christianity, usually referred to simply as God. Jesus is
held to be the son of god. He is not a god himself - there is only one
god.
Yes he is prayed to and some of the prayers even carry the words 'through
our lord Jesus christ' meaning that one is praying to god through the
agency of his son. In catholicism especially, followers also pray to the
saints in hope of favour or even, allegedly, miracles. This does not make
them deities, they are merely saints. Being prayed to is not indicative -
many people pray to their ancestors who were humans, not gods.
Mary is held in high esteem but is not a goddess - not a deity.

Post by David Dalton
But I agree that Wicca is of recent origin and in particular I do not
follow their theory of aspects, where e.g. Taliesin is viewed as an
aspect of ALL. I think that Taliesin is a subset of ALL, as I am, but
that doesn't make him an aspect of ALL. None of my 12 main deities are
aspects of ALL.

Which deity do you think this 'all' is? Perhaps you could identify him (I
assume it is male) by comparison with the Roman or Greek pantheon, or
even the Norse.
Are your deities founded on your European ancestry or your native
American homeland? They appear to be random.

[Giovanna Stefani]

Taliesin (Gwion Bach) was not a mythical person. He is the poet who
wrote that he had three inspirations of Ceridwen and three prisons of
Arianrhod and also wrote that there are seven score muses in the
inspiration of song, eight score in every score.

"Taliesin was an early British poet of the post-Roman period whose work
has possibly survived in a Middle Welsh manuscript, the Book of Taliesin.
Taliesin was a renowned bard who is believed to have sung at the courts
of at least three Celtic British kings" (Wikipedia)

Note his work has 'possibly' survived (they are not sure) and 'believed
to have sung' (they are not sure).
Note also "There is no record of Taliesin outside of his own poems" which
may or may not be his in fact. The rest is myth and legend.

A waning crescent high is a creative mystical hypomania (high but not
high enough to be called mania) or mania coming during waning crescent
moon, which is associated with Ceridwen.

No, that is associated with your mental illness. It has nothing to do
with ancient Welsh characters.

A waxing gibbous moon trial is an unpleasant mixed/psychotic episode
coming during waxing gibbous moon, with release by full moon, associated
with Arianrhod. By mixed I mean racing thoughts but low mood.

No, that is associated with your mental illness. It has nothing to do
with ancient Welsh characters.

As a UK pagan you
should welcome any evidence that Gwion was similar to Jesus, so I
suspect you are not a traditional UK pagan.

A pagan (UK or otherwise) would have no interest in a minor middle-
eastern mystic. We have more than enough historical figures of our own
without importing people from Jewish culture.
As for tradition, paganism has not been traditional for about two
thousand years. The recent minor resurgence does not yet amount to a
tradition. It seems that most users of the word have no idea of its
meaning.

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Taliesin (Gwion Bach) was not a mythical person. He is the poet who
wrote that he had three inspirations of Ceridwen and three prisons of
Arianrhod and also wrote that there are seven score muses in the
inspiration of song, eight score in every score.

"Taliesin was an early British poet of the post-Roman period whose work
has possibly survived in a Middle Welsh manuscript, the Book of Taliesin.
Taliesin was a renowned bard who is believed to have sung at the courts
of at least three Celtic British kings" (Wikipedia)
Note his work has 'possibly' survived (they are not sure) and 'believed
to have sung' (they are not sure).
Note also "There is no record of Taliesin outside of his own poems" which
may or may not be his in fact. The rest is myth and legend.

Well, some poet wrote that he had three inspirations of
Ceridwen and three prisons of Arianrhod, and I am saying
that that poet is Gwion Bach, also called Taliesin. I agree
that some of the poems now attributed to Taliesin may have
been written by later figures.

Post by Giovanna Stefani

A waning crescent high is a creative mystical hypomania (high but not
high enough to be called mania) or mania coming during waning crescent
moon, which is associated with Ceridwen.

No, that is associated with your mental illness. It has nothing to do
with ancient Welsh characters.

A waxing gibbous moon trial is an unpleasant mixed/psychotic episode
coming during waxing gibbous moon, with release by full moon, associated
with Arianrhod. By mixed I mean racing thoughts but low mood.

No, that is associated with your mental illness. It has nothing to do
with ancient Welsh characters.

There is a fine line between mental illness and shamanic
initiation by nature. I am saying that Gwion also
suffered mental illness, as is evident in his saying that
he had three inpirations of Ceridwen (waning crescent highs)
and three prisons of Arianrhod (waxing gibbous moon trials).
But he says that he was able to overcome his mental
illness and keep the cauldron (of creativity) brewing.
He moreover said that there were seven score muses in
the inspiration of song, which I take to mean seven
score lunar months between his first waning crescent
high and when he came out of his low years.

Post by Giovanna Stefani

As a UK pagan you
should welcome any evidence that Gwion was similar to Jesus, so I
suspect you are not a traditional UK pagan.

A pagan (UK or otherwise) would have no interest in a minor middle-
eastern mystic. We have more than enough historical figures of our own
without importing people from Jewish culture.

Oh, I thought my fellow pagans would be interested in
evidence that Gwion was just as good as Jesus. Perhaps
some are, but you do not appear to be, at least if it
involves me as the bridge.

Post by Giovanna Stefani
As for tradition, paganism has not been traditional for about two
thousand years. The recent minor resurgence does not yet amount to a
tradition. It seems that most users of the word have no idea of its
meaning.

Some druids and traditional witches claim an ancient
lineage, and it could be that their traditions have
some very old material and some more recently
created (perhaps by inspiration) material.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks
for the feedback.

[Giovanna Stefani]

Some druids and traditional witches claim an ancient lineage, and it
could be that their traditions have some very old material and some more
recently created (perhaps by inspiration) material.

They do make such claims but they are either lying or deluding themselves.
This brings me to the ever popular 'Celtic tradition'.

'Celtic' is a generic name given to the diverse tribes which inhabited
the British Isles prior to the Roman invasion. As a people, the Celts
never existed. These tribes had little in common aside of living at the
same time. Very little is known about them and absolutely nothing is
known of their religion, aside of the evidence of some animal sacrifice
pits.
Some local deities were incorporated into the Roman pantheon which
gradually replaced them. How they were worshipped is only known from
their equivalent Roman deity and Roman history.

For these reasons, along with the fact that a couple of thousand years
has passed in between, there cannot possibly be a Celtic tradition as any
current so-called Celtic practices are founded on fantasy - there are no
facts on which they could be based.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the feedback.

I am happy to agree to that. I did not provide any feedback, I merely
disagreed with you (:
You will never be a pagan figure of any standing, major or minor, while
you allow yourself to confuse fantasy with fact.

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Some druids and traditional witches claim an ancient lineage, and it
could be that their traditions have some very old material and some more
recently created (perhaps by inspiration) material.

They do make such claims but they are either lying or deluding themselves.
This brings me to the ever popular 'Celtic tradition'.
'Celtic' is a generic name given to the diverse tribes which inhabited
the British Isles prior to the Roman invasion. As a people, the Celts
never existed. These tribes had little in common aside of living at the
same time. Very little is known about them and absolutely nothing is
known of their religion, aside of the evidence of some animal sacrifice
pits.
Some local deities were incorporated into the Roman pantheon which
gradually replaced them. How they were worshipped is only known from
their equivalent Roman deity and Roman history.
For these reasons, along with the fact that a couple of thousand years
has passed in between, there cannot possibly be a Celtic tradition as any
current so-called Celtic practices are founded on fantasy - there are no
facts on which they could be based.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the feedback.

I am happy to agree to that. I did not provide any feedback, I merely
You will never be a pagan figure of any standing, major or minor, while
you allow yourself to confuse fantasy with fact.

OK. I have Pagan Celtic Britain by Anne Ross, which
I found to be a scholarly tract with lots of archaeological
material, some of which might inspire me in future,
and indeed the story of the birth of Cu Chulainn already
has, since I related the numbers of pairs of birds to
a number of lunar months (the waning crescent and waxing
crescent can be viewed as a pair of birds). Also as
I have noted, the poems of Gwion (Taliesin) have inspired
me some and probably will more when I reread them, after
my experiences of the last 16.76 years.

But, Giovanna, what branch of paganism (or other religion)
do you follow? I consider myself to be an individual/eclectic
neopagan not currently attached to any group.

[Giovanna Stefani]

But, Giovanna, what branch of paganism (or other religion) do you
follow?

I do not follow branches.
Prior to the spread of the middle-eastern christian disease to Europe -
in part the fault of a single Roman emperor who sought political gain by
claiming to be christian and insisting that citizens converted - all of
Europe had perfectly good 'pagan' deities, some of which were later
likened to and replaced by the Roman pantheon. I put pagan in quotes
there because this was mainstream religion - it is only called pagan in
retrospect.
These deities fell into disuse in the past two thousand years but they
remain perfectly good and functional deities. I believe it is forbidden
to say the name of deities to those who are not believers so you will
forgive me if I do not specify.
I am therefore by definition a pagan since I respect these original
deities rather than follow a major world religion.

I have read many books by modern writers on the subject and some do
contain perfectly good advice on the topic but I do draw the line between
reasonable suggestions and total fantasy.
I particularly object to those books which claim to show a history as
aside of Roman history, there are no records of paganism in the UK of any
kind whatsoever. Those who seek to create a history to justify their
writing can do so because they are writing fiction and that is not meant
to be true. I am myself an author of several published novels so am
familiar with the inspiration and creative urges that bring work about.
I urge you again to distinguish between fact and fantasy.

I have in my house a shrine which contains figures representing the
deities and space for offerings or, if you will, sacrifices. I do not
sacrifice animals or people however because I believe that to be immoral
(it is also illegal, if that matters).

So, I consider myself to be the only kind of pagan there is - one who
follows the religion of my country (rather than a religion of the middle
east, i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam).

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

But, Giovanna, what branch of paganism (or other religion) do you
follow?

I do not follow branches.
Prior to the spread of the middle-eastern christian disease to Europe -
in part the fault of a single Roman emperor who sought political gain by
claiming to be christian and insisting that citizens converted - all of
Europe had perfectly good 'pagan' deities, some of which were later
likened to and replaced by the Roman pantheon. I put pagan in quotes
there because this was mainstream religion - it is only called pagan in
retrospect.
These deities fell into disuse in the past two thousand years but they
remain perfectly good and functional deities. I believe it is forbidden
to say the name of deities to those who are not believers so you will
forgive me if I do not specify.
I am therefore by definition a pagan since I respect these original
deities rather than follow a major world religion.
I have read many books by modern writers on the subject and some do
contain perfectly good advice on the topic but I do draw the line between
reasonable suggestions and total fantasy.
I particularly object to those books which claim to show a history as
aside of Roman history, there are no records of paganism in the UK of any
kind whatsoever. Those who seek to create a history to justify their
writing can do so because they are writing fiction and that is not meant
to be true. I am myself an author of several published novels so am
familiar with the inspiration and creative urges that bring work about.
I urge you again to distinguish between fact and fantasy.
I have in my house a shrine which contains figures representing the
deities and space for offerings or, if you will, sacrifices. I do not
sacrifice animals or people however because I believe that to be immoral
(it is also illegal, if that matters).
So, I consider myself to be the only kind of pagan there is - one who
follows the religion of my country (rather than a religion of the middle
east, i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam).

OK, you are inspired by the names of the deities and
stories about them without assuming any detailed
history? And is your country the UK?

Like me, I assume you do not believe your deities
are aspects of ALL but are distinct entities?

I believe that many pagan deities were originally
human and that some were similar to me. Some
names I intend to research some more are
Adonis, Dionysus, Baal, Mitra, Osiris, Thoth,
Horus, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Hu Gadarn, Green Man,
Angus, Goibniu, and figures I mention on my web page.
I also plan to research female names, some of whom
may have been associated with figures like me,
but some of whom stand alone without any significant
male figure inspired by them.

[David Dalton]

Post by David Dalton

Post by Giovanna Stefani

But, Giovanna, what branch of paganism (or other religion) do you
follow?

I do not follow branches.
Prior to the spread of the middle-eastern christian disease to Europe -
in part the fault of a single Roman emperor who sought political gain by
claiming to be christian and insisting that citizens converted - all of
Europe had perfectly good 'pagan' deities, some of which were later
likened to and replaced by the Roman pantheon. I put pagan in quotes
there because this was mainstream religion - it is only called pagan in
retrospect.
These deities fell into disuse in the past two thousand years but they
remain perfectly good and functional deities. I believe it is forbidden
to say the name of deities to those who are not believers so you will
forgive me if I do not specify.
I am therefore by definition a pagan since I respect these original
deities rather than follow a major world religion.
I have read many books by modern writers on the subject and some do
contain perfectly good advice on the topic but I do draw the line between
reasonable suggestions and total fantasy.
I particularly object to those books which claim to show a history as
aside of Roman history, there are no records of paganism in the UK of any
kind whatsoever. Those who seek to create a history to justify their
writing can do so because they are writing fiction and that is not meant
to be true. I am myself an author of several published novels so am
familiar with the inspiration and creative urges that bring work about.
I urge you again to distinguish between fact and fantasy.
I have in my house a shrine which contains figures representing the
deities and space for offerings or, if you will, sacrifices. I do not
sacrifice animals or people however because I believe that to be immoral
(it is also illegal, if that matters).
So, I consider myself to be the only kind of pagan there is - one who
follows the religion of my country (rather than a religion of the middle
east, i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam).

OK, you are inspired by the names of the deities and
stories about them without assuming any detailed
history? And is your country the UK?
Like me, I assume you do not believe your deities
are aspects of ALL but are distinct entities?
I believe that many pagan deities were originally
human and that some were similar to me. Some
names I intend to research some more are
Adonis, Dionysus, Baal, Mitra, Osiris, Thoth,
Horus, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Hu Gadarn, Green Man,
Angus, Goibniu, and figures I mention on my web page.

also Fintan, Cernunnos, Herne

Post by David Dalton
I also plan to research female names, some of whom
may have been associated with figures like me,
but some of whom stand alone without any significant
male figure inspired by them.

[Giovanna Stefani]

OK, you are inspired by the names of the deities and stories about them
without assuming any detailed history?

I like as much detailed history as possible, provided it is history and
not fantasy. The Romans kept records so it is possible to learn much from
that era and after. It is the pre-Roman era that is devoid of history,
aside of archaeology. A stone with a deity name carved on it is evidence
of that deity but does not come with details of how it was worshipped or
why.

And is your country the UK?

My country is Scotland.

Like me, I assume you do not believe your deities are aspects of ALL but
are distinct entities?

I am unaware of a god/goddess called 'all' so cannot comment on that. I
do have one supreme female deity aside of, and above, other more specific
deities. I agree these are not aspects.

I believe that many pagan deities were originally human and that some
were similar to me.

I am unaware of any deities having ever been human. Some appeared on
earth and interacted with humans but they were not human. Being non-human
is part of the definition of deity.

I also plan to research female names, some of whom may have been
associated with figures like me, but some of whom stand alone without
any significant male figure inspired by them.

Many, if not most, female deities stand alone. All of my deities are
female.

[zayton]

Post by David Dalton

Post by zayton
My point would be that only you see this evidence as evidence.

Well, Taliesin had three waning crescent highs

Did he Where does he say this?


(the inspirations

Post by David Dalton
of Ceridwen or Ogyrwen)

Your conclusion with no basis I can see.

and three waxing gibbous moon trials

Post by David Dalton
(the prisons of Arianrhod)

Where does he indicate that this is the case?


and there was an eight score day

Post by David Dalton
separation between waxing gibbous moon trial onset and
later waning crescent high onset.

What does this gibberish even mean?



That makes me similar to

Post by David Dalton
him. Why don't you agree that that is evidence? Moreover
my similarity to Jesus (especially in the similarity of his
baptism to my sun stare)

How is it that his baptism is similar to your "sun stare"? (Whatever that is)



implies that Taliesin was similar

Post by David Dalton
to Jesus as well. Indeed I am ranking Taliesin (Gwion Bach)
as a major religious figure.
For more on my similarity to Taliesin see
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html .
--
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/nf.html Newfoundland&Labrador Travel & Music
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"Here I go again...back into the flame" (Sarah McLachlan)

[David Dalton]

Post by zayton

Post by David Dalton

Post by zayton
My point would be that only you see this evidence as evidence.

Well, Taliesin had three waning crescent highs

Did he Where does he say this?

See http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html for
the quotes, taken from John Matthews' book Taliesin...

Post by zayton
(the inspirations

Post by David Dalton
of Ceridwen or Ogyrwen)

Your conclusion with no basis I can see.

Ceridwen in her hag (crone) aspect is associated with the old
moon (waning crescent moon).

Post by zayton
and three waxing gibbous moon trials

Post by David Dalton
(the prisons of Arianrhod)

Where does he indicate that this is the case?

See http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html for
the quotes, taken from John Matthews' book Taliesin...

Arianrhod (Silver Wheel) is associated with full moon,
and the waxing gibbous moon trials ended by full moon.

Post by zayton
and there was an eight score day

Post by David Dalton
separation between waxing gibbous moon trial onset and
later waning crescent high onset.

What does this gibberish even mean?

You are stunned! There was an eight score day (162 day,
5.5 lunar month, 6 solar rotations) separation from
waxing gibbous moon trial (prison of Arianrhod) onset
to waning crescent high (inspiration of Ceridwen) onset.
That is fairly clear.

Post by zayton
That makes me similar to

Post by David Dalton
him. Why don't you agree that that is evidence? Moreover
my similarity to Jesus (especially in the similarity of his
baptism to my sun stare)

How is it that his baptism is similar to your "sun stare"? (Whatever that is)

During his baptism the heavens opened and wings descended.
During and after my sun stare the heavens opened (there was
a tunneling beyond the sun, I think into higher dimensions)
and wings descended, as I fell into the water (baptism by nature).

I have a bit more on that on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/christian.html and
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sunstare.html .

Post by zayton
implies that Taliesin was similar

Post by David Dalton
to Jesus as well. Indeed I am ranking Taliesin (Gwion Bach)
as a major religious figure.
For more on my similarity to Taliesin see
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html .

Probably now that I have been through 16.75 years of low years
I should read John Matthews' book again, since I might find
some new interpretations (e.g. of the belly of the hen).

Probably we will also have to agree to disagree.

I consider myself neopagan and I thought I would have some
interest and perhaps support (at least to the extent of some
readers conducting research into past pagan figures that I
have not yet covered) from my fellow pagans.

But thanks for your feedback, it might help me clarify my
writing on my Salmon on the Thorns web page when I get
around to editing it.

[David Dalton]

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Post by Giovanna Stefani

In the past I have claimed to be an Opener of the Way or a global
shaman, or the latest
avatar/christ/messiah/buddha/maitreya/Prophet/major pagan figure type.
However I cannot really claim any of that, despite the signs I have
experienced so far, until I am out of the low years.

You will not be able to claim it then either.

Well, I will, if my coming out of the low years is equivalent to the
Buddha's coming out of his ascetic years into awakening/enlightenment.

Why would it be?

Since I am similar to the Buddha, so I expect my low
years to end as his ascetic years did. I discuss
this on http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/buddhism.html .
But I admit that until I come out of the low years
I have less evidence for my similarity to the Buddha
than I do for my similarity to Taliesin (Gwion) and Jesus.

Post by Giovanna Stefani

Plus I do have some biographical evidence that I am similar to some past
major religious figures.

I would like to see that.

Some is on my Salmon on the Thorns web page.

For example, Taliesin had three inspirations of Ceridwen,
which are the same as my waning crescent highs, and
three prisons of Arianrhod, which are the same as my
waxing gibbous moon trials. And when he says
"eight score in every score" he means a separation
of eight score days between waxing gibbous moon trial
onset and later waning crescent high onset (162 days,
5.5 lunar months, 6 solar rotations). I discuss this
some more on http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html .
I used the 5.5 lunar month separation to successfully
predict, from a March94 waxing gibbous moon trial, that
I would have a late Aug/early Sept94 waning crescent high.