Language support

[Tony Cooper]

I read the following in a novel:

“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”

I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.

What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have a
large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in the
Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at William
Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written “laminated
menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in UK usage,
added “cards” to the manuscript.

Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak. I
don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

[Ken Blake]

“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.

Out of curiosity I just looked her up on Wikipedia. It says

"Deborah Crombie (née Darden) is an American author of the Duncan
Kincaid / Gemma James mystery series set in the United Kingdom.[1]
Crombie was raised in Richardson, Texas, and has lived in the United
Kingdom."

[Pamela]

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the
restaurant and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her
series of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and
Gemma James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in
north Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have
a large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in
the Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at
William Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written
“laminated menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in
UK usage, added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak.
I don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

You inferred all that because a character added "card" to the word
menu? Sherlock Holmes watch out!

In case you don't know, a novel is not a reference book. Poetic
licence is permitted. A willing suspension of disbelief allows the
reader to enjoy the novel better.

Or were you just being grumpy again?

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 01 May 2021 20:50:33 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the
restaurant and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her
series of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and
Gemma James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in
north Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have
a large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in
the Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at
William Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written
“laminated menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in
UK usage, added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak.
I don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

You inferred all that because a character added "card" to the word
menu? Sherlock Holmes watch out!
In case you don't know, a novel is not a reference book. Poetic
licence is permitted. A willing suspension of disbelief allows the
reader to enjoy the novel better.
Or were you just being grumpy again?

Menu cards are something special as opposed to the "menu", and the
term is often used in the U.S.

Often used for special occasions such as a wedding or a birthday, but
the occasions don't have to be special.

https://www.etsy.com/market/menu_cards

Many times a card in a holder and sometimes permanently placed in the
middle of the table or at each place setting. We have all seen them.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Mack A. Damia
Menu cards are something special as opposed to the "menu", and the
term is often used in the U.S.
Often used for special occasions such as a wedding or a birthday, but
the occasions don't have to be special.
https://www.etsy.com/market/menu_cards
Many times a card in a holder and sometimes permanently placed in the
middle of the table or at each place setting. We have all seen them.

Goalposts, anyone? No one was talking about that sort of souvenir.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 1 May 2021 14:45:27 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Mack A. Damia
Menu cards are something special as opposed to the "menu", and the
term is often used in the U.S.
Often used for special occasions such as a wedding or a birthday, but
the occasions don't have to be special.
https://www.etsy.com/market/menu_cards
Many times a card in a holder and sometimes permanently placed in the
middle of the table or at each place setting. We have all seen them.

Goalposts, anyone? No one was talking about that sort of souvenir.

They are not souvenirs, goofball, unless you are a thief.

The subject is "menu cards". As usual, you are the one moving the
goalposts and denying the obvious; you are well-known for your silly
childishness.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 01 May 2021 20:50:33 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the
restaurant and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her
series of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and
Gemma James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in
north Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have
a large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in
the Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at
William Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written
“laminated menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in
UK usage, added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak.
I don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

You inferred all that because a character added "card" to the word
menu? Sherlock Holmes watch out!
In case you don't know, a novel is not a reference book. Poetic
licence is permitted. A willing suspension of disbelief allows the
reader to enjoy the novel better.
Or were you just being grumpy again?

The "menu vs menu card" reference was an example of a term discussed
here in aue, but it is just one example of terms used in her books
that differ from the word that would be used in an US setting. It was
just one of many, but chosen because of the recent aue discussion.

That "poetic license" bit just doesn't go over with everyone. Note in
the next post a complaint about Tom Clancy writing of a journey that
would not be taken the way it was in the book. Cue the numerous
objections having to suspend belief when reading Patricia Cornwell.

Readers familiar with Southwark would be grumpy as hell if Ms Crombie
had a character pass by the Little Dorrit window at St Hugh's Church.

Also note that "charles" also objects to "menu card" being attributed
to UK English. I like charles, and don't want to insult him, but
that's a rather PTDish comment wherein the writer denies something is
used because the writer doesn't use it. If I remember correctly, it
was said be used in the UK by a landsman of charles.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
Also note that "charles" also objects to "menu card" being attributed
to UK English. I like charles, and don't want to insult him, but
that's a rather PTDish comment wherein the writer denies something is
used because the writer doesn't use it.

The bully just couldn't restrain himself even three days.

Someone needs to point out to him how many times he has falsely
claimed that "In the US" something-or-other is said, when that thing
may be utterly unheard of in The Northeast.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 1 May 2021 14:48:45 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
Also note that "charles" also objects to "menu card" being attributed
to UK English. I like charles, and don't want to insult him, but
that's a rather PTDish comment wherein the writer denies something is
used because the writer doesn't use it.

The bully just couldn't restrain himself even three days.
Someone needs to point out to him how many times he has falsely
claimed that "In the US" something-or-other is said, when that thing
may be utterly unheard of in The Northeast.

In that case, if you feel compelled to comment, you write "I haven't
heard that." Instead, you say something like "Moron, that isn't
used".

You seem to feel that The Northeast is a place where everyone speaks
as you do, no one moves to The Northeast and brings their usage with
them, and what's within the arc of your swung cat's ears is the only
usage.

Given the way people move about the country, bringing their usage with
them, "utterly unheard" is utterly unbelievable.

[Pamela]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sat, 01 May 2021 20:50:33 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the
restaurant and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her
series of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and
Gemma James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this,
but in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in
the London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in
north Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones -
have a large support team to check or provide details. Ms
Crombie, in the Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her
editors at William Morrow, for their assistance. She could have
written “laminated menus” and one of those cited, who was more
conversant in UK usage, added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not
include all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of
UK speak. I don’t know where in the series this one was written,
but she would have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from
her earlier books.

You inferred all that because a character added "card" to the word
menu? Sherlock Holmes watch out!
In case you don't know, a novel is not a reference book. Poetic
licence is permitted. A willing suspension of disbelief allows the
reader to enjoy the novel better.
Or were you just being grumpy again?

The "menu vs menu card" reference was an example of a term discussed
here in aue, but it is just one example of terms used in her books
that differ from the word that would be used in an US setting. It
was just one of many, but chosen because of the recent aue
discussion.
That "poetic license" bit just doesn't go over with everyone. Note
in the next post a complaint about Tom Clancy writing of a journey
that would not be taken the way it was in the book. Cue the
numerous objections having to suspend belief when reading Patricia
Cornwell.
Readers familiar with Southwark would be grumpy as hell if Ms
Crombie had a character pass by the Little Dorrit window at St
Hugh's Church.

I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many years
and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe Theatre.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 02 May 2021 11:12:55 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sat, 01 May 2021 20:50:33 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the
restaurant and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her
series of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and
Gemma James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this,
but in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in
the London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in
north Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones -
have a large support team to check or provide details. Ms
Crombie, in the Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her
editors at William Morrow, for their assistance. She could have
written “laminated menus” and one of those cited, who was more
conversant in UK usage, added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not
include all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of
UK speak. I don’t know where in the series this one was written,
but she would have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from
her earlier books.

You inferred all that because a character added "card" to the word
menu? Sherlock Holmes watch out!
In case you don't know, a novel is not a reference book. Poetic
licence is permitted. A willing suspension of disbelief allows the
reader to enjoy the novel better.
Or were you just being grumpy again?

The "menu vs menu card" reference was an example of a term discussed
here in aue, but it is just one example of terms used in her books
that differ from the word that would be used in an US setting. It
was just one of many, but chosen because of the recent aue
discussion.
That "poetic license" bit just doesn't go over with everyone. Note
in the next post a complaint about Tom Clancy writing of a journey
that would not be taken the way it was in the book. Cue the
numerous objections having to suspend belief when reading Patricia
Cornwell.
Readers familiar with Southwark would be grumpy as hell if Ms
Crombie had a character pass by the Little Dorrit window at St
Hugh's Church.

I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many years
and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St Hugh's
Church?

I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that St
George The Martyr Church is the location.

[Pamela]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 11:12:55 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sat, 01 May 2021 20:50:33 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the
restaurant and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be
“handed them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan.
The book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in
her series of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan
Kincaid and Gemma James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this,
but in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in
the London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland
Yard procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small
town in north Texas town and travels to England “several times a
year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones -
have a large support team to check or provide details. Ms
Crombie, in the Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her
editors at William Morrow, for their assistance. She could have
written “laminated menus” and one of those cited, who was more
conversant in UK usage, added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not
include all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge
of UK speak. I don’t know where in the series this one was
written, but she would have been accumulating
UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier books.

You inferred all that because a character added "card" to the word
menu? Sherlock Holmes watch out!
In case you don't know, a novel is not a reference book. Poetic
licence is permitted. A willing suspension of disbelief allows
the reader to enjoy the novel better.
Or were you just being grumpy again?

The "menu vs menu card" reference was an example of a term
discussed here in aue, but it is just one example of terms used in
her books that differ from the word that would be used in an US
setting. It was just one of many, but chosen because of the
recent aue discussion.
That "poetic license" bit just doesn't go over with everyone.
Note in the next post a complaint about Tom Clancy writing of a
journey that would not be taken the way it was in the book. Cue
the numerous objections having to suspend belief when reading
Patricia Cornwell.
Readers familiar with Southwark would be grumpy as hell if Ms
Crombie had a character pass by the Little Dorrit window at St
Hugh's Church.

I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St Hugh's
Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that St
George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar with
Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I am
perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a novel
where poetic licence has been taken.

You sound like the sort of person who can't read Sherlock Holmes
because there's no 221B Baker Street.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St Hugh's
Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that St
George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar with
Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I am
perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a novel
where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error that
we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from Orlando
to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it. But if I
read that, and know that making that drive in less than six hours
would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

Post by Pamela
You sound like the sort of person who can't read Sherlock Holmes
because there's no 221B Baker Street.

That would not be a problem at all. I expect fiction to include
fictional towns, fictional addresses, and fictional people. It
doesn't bother me that DCI Barnaby is depicted in a pub in Causton
when there is no town of Causton in the UK.

It's when fiction writers use real places, but include impossible
situations - as in the driving time between Orlando and Key West -
that do bother me. Of course, I have to have some personal knowledge
of the impossibility to be bothered.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 02 May 2021 10:15:25 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St Hugh's
Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that St
George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar with
Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I am
perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a novel
where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error that
we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from Orlando
to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it. But if I
read that, and know that making that drive in less than six hours
would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

Post by Pamela
You sound like the sort of person who can't read Sherlock Holmes
because there's no 221B Baker Street.

That would not be a problem at all. I expect fiction to include
fictional towns, fictional addresses, and fictional people. It
doesn't bother me that DCI Barnaby is depicted in a pub in Causton
when there is no town of Causton in the UK.

221B Baker Street is no longer a fictional address:
https://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/contact-us/

The Sherlock Holmes Museum
221b Baker Street
NW1 6XE, London

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_Museum

Post by Tony Cooper
It's when fiction writers use real places, but include impossible
situations - as in the driving time between Orlando and Key West -
that do bother me. Of course, I have to have some personal knowledge
of the impossibility to be bothered.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St
Hugh's Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that
St George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar
with Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I
am perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a
novel where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error
that we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from
Orlando to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it. But
if I read that, and know that making that drive in less than six
hours would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

I got really annoyed by a recent TV series set in Newcastle (NSW). In
the first episode a new arrival from England was picked up by a relative
at Newcastle Beach. (How did she get from the airport to the beach?)
Then they drove to the relative's home (in an easily recognisable
street, for anyone who knows Newcastle). The direct route would have
taken them along the coast through posh beach-side suburbs. Instead,
they managed to go through an industrial area that's a very long drive
away from any of those places.

Still, now that I think of it, I've had a similar experience. I once
took a taxi from central Boston to Cambridge, Massachussetts. The cab
driver wandered all over the place and didn't seem to know where
Cambridge was. I didn't tip him.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 3 May 2021 11:33:55 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St
Hugh's Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that
St George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar
with Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I
am perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a
novel where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error
that we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from
Orlando to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it. But
if I read that, and know that making that drive in less than six
hours would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

I got really annoyed by a recent TV series set in Newcastle (NSW). In
the first episode a new arrival from England was picked up by a relative
at Newcastle Beach. (How did she get from the airport to the beach?)
Then they drove to the relative's home (in an easily recognisable
street, for anyone who knows Newcastle). The direct route would have
taken them along the coast through posh beach-side suburbs. Instead,
they managed to go through an industrial area that's a very long drive
away from any of those places.
Still, now that I think of it, I've had a similar experience. I once
took a taxi from central Boston to Cambridge, Massachussetts. The cab
driver wandered all over the place and didn't seem to know where
Cambridge was. I didn't tip him.

I can relate to the taxi driver. I've driven in Boston. I was trying
to get to Faneuil Hall (where the restaurant was), I could see Faneuil
Hall, but I couldn't get to Faneuil Hall on any street.

[Pamela]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 3 May 2021 11:33:55 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St
Hugh's Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that
St George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar
with Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I
am perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a
novel where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error
that we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from
Orlando to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it.
But if I read that, and know that making that drive in less than
six hours would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

I got really annoyed by a recent TV series set in Newcastle (NSW).
In the first episode a new arrival from England was picked up by a
relative at Newcastle Beach. (How did she get from the airport to
the beach?) Then they drove to the relative's home (in an easily
recognisable street, for anyone who knows Newcastle). The direct
route would have taken them along the coast through posh beach-side
suburbs. Instead, they managed to go through an industrial area
that's a very long drive away from any of those places.
Still, now that I think of it, I've had a similar experience. I once
took a taxi from central Boston to Cambridge, Massachussetts. The
cab driver wandered all over the place and didn't seem to know where
Cambridge was. I didn't tip him.

I can relate to the taxi driver. I've driven in Boston. I was
trying to get to Faneuil Hall (where the restaurant was), I could
see Faneuil Hall, but I couldn't get to Faneuil Hall on any street.

Presumably a satnav would provide the necessary directions now.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St
Hugh's Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that
St George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar
with Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I
am perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a
novel where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error
that we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from
Orlando to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it. But
if I read that, and know that making that drive in less than six
hours would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

I got really annoyed by a recent TV series set in Newcastle (NSW). In
the first episode a new arrival from England was picked up by a relative
at Newcastle Beach. (How did she get from the airport to the beach?)
Then they drove to the relative's home (in an easily recognisable
street, for anyone who knows Newcastle). The direct route would have
taken them along the coast through posh beach-side suburbs. Instead,
they managed to go through an industrial area that's a very long drive
away from any of those places.

Many TV films and other films are set in Marseilles. It's quite typical
for someone to be driving along the coast, to say something to their
passenger, and when the passenger answers to be about 5km further
along. The road over the cliffs between Cassis and La Ciotat is very
spectacular and it's not unusual to see it in contexts that the plot
doesn't begin explain. There was a classic gangster film (with Alain
Delon, think) that begins with a hold up of a van with a group of
prisoners being transported by the gendarmes. No conceivably plausible
reason why they would use that road.

Post by Peter Moylan
Still, now that I think of it, I've had a similar experience. I once
took a taxi from central Boston to Cambridge, Massachussetts. The cab
driver wandered all over the place and didn't seem to know where
Cambridge was. I didn't tip him.

I have read that that is a common problem with Boston taxi drivers, who
don't always know how to get away from the airport.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 02 May 2021 13:44:56 +0100, Pamela

Post by Pamela

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pamela
I feel no grumpiness about that. I worked in Southwark for many
years and know the area. I watched the excavations of the Globe
Theatre.

Then you do know that the Little Dorrit window is not at St
Hugh's Church?
I would think, that if you did, you would have pointed out that
St George The Martyr Church is the location.

It is sufficient to say you're wrong to claim "Readers familiar
with Southwark would be grumpy as hell ... " about some trivia. I
am perfectly familar with Southward and can also happily read a
novel where poetic licence has been taken.

We accept "poetic license" to point where it is an absolute error
that we recognize. You may read a novel where someone drives from
Orlando to Key West in two hours and not think anything about it. But
if I read that, and know that making that drive in less than six
hours would be all but impossible, it stops me short.

I got really annoyed by a recent TV series set in Newcastle (NSW). In
the first episode a new arrival from England was picked up by a relative
at Newcastle Beach. (How did she get from the airport to the beach?)
Then they drove to the relative's home (in an easily recognisable
street, for anyone who knows Newcastle). The direct route would have
taken them along the coast through posh beach-side suburbs. Instead,
they managed to go through an industrial area that's a very long drive
away from any of those places.
Still, now that I think of it, I've had a similar experience. I once
took a taxi from central Boston to Cambridge, Massachussetts. The cab
driver wandered all over the place and didn't seem to know where
Cambridge was. I didn't tip him.

Did you tell him you wanted to get scrod?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Still, now that I think of it, I've had a similar experience. I
once took a taxi from central Boston to Cambridge, Massachussetts.
The cab driver wandered all over the place and didn't seem to know
where Cambridge was. I didn't tip him.

Did you tell him you wanted to get scrod?

That wasn't my goal at the time. But I do recall being taught how to eat
some kind of seafood by grabbing it by the foreskin.

[charles]

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

Until subscribing to this newsgroup, I'd never come across the term "menu
card". It is NOT BrE.

Post by Tony Cooper
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have a
large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in the
Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at William
Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written “laminated
menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in UK usage,
added “cards” to the manuscript.

There was a well known US author (Clancy) who had his hero travel from
Waterloo station to Century House and dropped his wife off at Hammersmith
Hospital, because it was on the way. Actually Century House was a brisk 5
minute walk from Waterloo whereas Hammersmith Hospital is some 8 miles away
and not in Hammersmith anyway.

Post by Tony Cooper
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak. I
don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by charles

“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

Until subscribing to this newsgroup, I'd never come across the term "menu
card". It is NOT BrE.

Yet it was only Brits (and Cooper, but he was just trying to have another
fight with me) who defended it.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 1 May 2021 14:44:20 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

Until subscribing to this newsgroup, I'd never come across the term "menu
card". It is NOT BrE.

Yet it was only Brits (and Cooper, but he was just trying to have another
fight with me) who defended it.

I didn't defend it as common, or even uncommon, usage in the US. I've
not seen/heard it used in the US.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by charles

“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

Until subscribing to this newsgroup, I'd never come across the term "menu
card". It is NOT BrE.

I don't think I've met "menu card" in BrE, however Oxford's Lexico UK
English dictionary has an entry for it:

https://www.lexico.com/definition/menu_card

The card on which a menu is written or printed.

Post by charles

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have a
large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in the
Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at William
Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written “laminated
menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in UK usage,
added “cards” to the manuscript.

There was a well known US author (Clancy) who had his hero travel from
Waterloo station to Century House and dropped his wife off at Hammersmith
Hospital, because it was on the way. Actually Century House was a brisk 5
minute walk from Waterloo whereas Hammersmith Hospital is some 8 miles away
and not in Hammersmith anyway.

Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak. I
don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

[Dingbat]

Post by charles

“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

Until subscribing to this newsgroup, I'd never come across the term "menu
card". It is NOT BrE.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have a
large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in the
Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at William
Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written “laminated
menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in UK usage,
added “cards” to the manuscript.

There was a well known US author (Clancy) who had his hero travel from
Waterloo station to Century House and dropped his wife off at Hammersmith
Hospital, because it was on the way. Actually Century House was a brisk 5
minute walk from Waterloo whereas Hammersmith Hospital is some 8 miles away
and not in Hammersmith anyway.

Even if it were in Hammersmith, it would be 5+ miles away. Critics of the Mark
gospel cite as an error the route it has Jesus taking to get from Tyre to Galilee;
he goes 20 miles out of the way through Sidon. This gives a plausible
explanation for why it need not be an error:
http://www.logicandlight.org/tyre/

Post by charles

Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak. I
don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Graham]

“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have a
large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in the
Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at William
Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written “laminated
menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in UK usage,
added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak. I
don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

There are dozens of American authors, coincidentally mostly women, that
have written novels recently that are set in the UK or Paris
especially during the 2nd WW. They appear to have a knowledge of their
settings gained during a brief "Cook's Tour" visit. They are also
ignorant of idiomatic UK English speech.

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Graham
They appear to have a knowledge of their
settings gained during a brief "Cook's Tour" visit.

In journalism lingo, there's the /toe-touch/: a trip a
reporter makes just to get a line in a report with the
"right" location, even if all the reporting is done in
a different location or by someone else.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On 2 May 2021 01:28:55 GMT

Post by Stefan Ram

Post by Graham
They appear to have a knowledge of their
settings gained during a brief "Cook's Tour" visit.

In journalism lingo, there's the /toe-touch/: a trip a
reporter makes just to get a line in a report with the
"right" location, even if all the reporting is done in
a different location or by someone else.

And now over to our Middle East correspondent in Beirut for the latest news from Iraq.

v.

I'm standing here today in front of the (closed, no access) scene of (newsevent) and have just as much idea as you do as to what's going on inside.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

They appear to have a knowledge of their settings gained during
a brief "Cook's Tour" visit.

In journalism lingo, there's the /toe-touch/: a trip a reporter
makes just to get a line in a report with the "right" location,
even if all the reporting is done in a different location or by
someone else.

And now over to our Middle East correspondent in Beirut for the latest news from Iraq.
v.
I'm standing here today in front of the (closed, no access) scene of
(newsevent) and have just as much idea as you do as to what's going
on inside.

Last year I was watching a news program with "Let's cross to our England
correspondent" about some event in England. While the correspondent was
talking, in front of a suitable background, someone spoiled the effect
by putting "Live from Ballarat" at the top left of the screen.

Disclaimer: I don't remember now whether it was Ballarat; but it was
definitely an Australian rural town, a long way from England. Because of
covid restrictions, the reporter obviously couldn't get to England.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 3 May 2021 11:39:49 +1100

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

They appear to have a knowledge of their settings gained during
a brief "Cook's Tour" visit.

In journalism lingo, there's the /toe-touch/: a trip a reporter
makes just to get a line in a report with the "right" location,
even if all the reporting is done in a different location or by
someone else.

And now over to our Middle East correspondent in Beirut for the latest news from Iraq.
v.
I'm standing here today in front of the (closed, no access) scene of
(newsevent) and have just as much idea as you do as to what's going
on inside.

Last year I was watching a news program with "Let's cross to our England
correspondent" about some event in England. While the correspondent was
talking, in front of a suitable background, someone spoiled the effect
by putting "Live from Ballarat" at the top left of the screen.
Disclaimer: I don't remember now whether it was Ballarat; but it was
definitely an Australian rural town, a long way from England. Because of
covid restrictions, the reporter obviously couldn't get to England.

Do they employ separate Wales & NI & Scotland reporters? :-)

Post by Peter Moylan
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[CDB]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Stefan Ram

They appear to have a knowledge of their settings gained
during a brief "Cook's Tour" visit.

In journalism lingo, there's the /toe-touch/: a trip a
reporter makes just to get a line in a report with the "right"
location, even if all the reporting is done in a different
location or by someone else.

And now over to our Middle East correspondent in Beirut for the latest news from Iraq.
v.
I'm standing here today in front of the (closed, no access) scene
of (newsevent) and have just as much idea as you do as to what's
going on inside.

Last year I was watching a news program with "Let's cross to our
England correspondent" about some event in England. While the
correspondent was talking, in front of a suitable background,
someone spoiled the effect by putting "Live from Ballarat" at the
top left of the screen.
Disclaimer: I don't remember now whether it was Ballarat; but it
was definitely an Australian rural town, a long way from England.
Because of covid restrictions, the reporter obviously couldn't get
to England.

Do they employ separate Wales & NI & Scotland reporters? :-)

Naw, the reporter changes hats and stays in Ballarat.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by CDB

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Peter Moylan
Last year I was watching a news program with "Let's cross to our
England correspondent" about some event in England. While the
correspondent was talking, in front of a suitable background,
someone spoiled the effect by putting "Live from Ballarat" at the
top left of the screen.
Disclaimer: I don't remember now whether it was Ballarat; but it
was definitely an Australian rural town, a long way from
England. Because of covid restrictions, the reporter obviously
couldn't get to England.

Do they employ separate Wales & NI & Scotland reporters? :-)

Naw, the reporter changes hats and stays in Ballarat.

That could be close to the truth. Back before travel was difficult, the
ABC seemed to have a lot of foreign correspondents, but it wasn't
unknown for the Belfast reporter to reappear a few days later as the
Brussels reporter.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 3 May 2021 22:15:19 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by CDB

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Peter Moylan
Last year I was watching a news program with "Let's cross to our
England correspondent" about some event in England. While the
correspondent was talking, in front of a suitable background,
someone spoiled the effect by putting "Live from Ballarat" at the
top left of the screen.
Disclaimer: I don't remember now whether it was Ballarat; but it
was definitely an Australian rural town, a long way from
England. Because of covid restrictions, the reporter obviously
couldn't get to England.

Do they employ separate Wales & NI & Scotland reporters? :-)

Naw, the reporter changes hats and stays in Ballarat.

That could be close to the truth. Back before travel was difficult, the
ABC seemed to have a lot of foreign correspondents, but it wasn't
unknown for the Belfast reporter to reappear a few days later as the
Brussels reporter.

Back in 2012, when George Zimmerman was being tried for the murder of
Travon Martin, I took some photos of the journalists who were covering
the trial. Someone from Australia recognized one of them as
Australian.

I think I have the right pictures selected:

Loading Image...
Loading Image...

It is near-essential for an American news reporter to report with a
building behind him or her where the event is taking place or took
place. Quite often, the report is delivered hours after the event
when nothing is going on in the building.

Evidently, the same is true in OZ.

Considering the "green screen" technology available, it's conceivable
that a news organization could take some stock photographs of court
houses and the like, and have all future news reports delivered from
the reporter's garage.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 3 May 2021 22:15:19 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by CDB

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Peter Moylan
Last year I was watching a news program with "Let's cross to
our England correspondent" about some event in England. While
the correspondent was talking, in front of a suitable
background, someone spoiled the effect by putting "Live from
Ballarat" at the top left of the screen.
Disclaimer: I don't remember now whether it was Ballarat; but
it was definitely an Australian rural town, a long way from
England. Because of covid restrictions, the reporter
obviously couldn't get to England.

Do they employ separate Wales & NI & Scotland reporters? :-)

Naw, the reporter changes hats and stays in Ballarat.

That could be close to the truth. Back before travel was difficult,
the ABC seemed to have a lot of foreign correspondents, but it
wasn't unknown for the Belfast reporter to reappear a few days
later as the Brussels reporter.

Back in 2012, when George Zimmerman was being tried for the murder
of Travon Martin, I took some photos of the journalists who were
covering the trial. Someone from Australia recognized one of them
as Australian.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-ktShDsq/0/25dbe0ed/O/2012-04-12-04.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Sanford-2012-The-Media/i-XccK674/0/3526d4f2/O/2012-04-12-05.jpg

I think I recognise one of them, but I've never been good at connecting
names with faces. (Which has been embarrassing socially at times.)

Post by Tony Cooper
It is near-essential for an American news reporter to report with a
building behind him or her where the event is taking place or took
place. Quite often, the report is delivered hours after the event
when nothing is going on in the building.
Evidently, the same is true in OZ.
Considering the "green screen" technology available, it's
conceivable that a news organization could take some stock
photographs of court houses and the like, and have all future news
reports delivered from the reporter's garage.

For a while I was amazed by how many newsworthy things seemed to be
happening at the Adelaide Convention Centre. Whenever something was
reported from Adelaide, the reporter was shown standing in front of the
convention centre. Finally it clicked that they had a shortage of
Adelaide scenes in their collection of stock backgrounds.

A couple of years ago, one of the ABC's American reporters was notable
for how she stressed the 'r' when reporting from Warshington.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Graham

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures? The end jacket says she lives in a small town in north
Texas town and travels to England “several times a year”.
What we forget is that authors - especially the prolific ones - have a
large support team to check or provide details. Ms Crombie, in the
Acknowledgements, cites 14 people including her editors at William
Morrow, for their assistance. She could have written “laminated
menus” and one of those cited, who was more conversant in UK usage,
added “cards” to the manuscript.
Even those cited in the Acknowledgement in this book may not include
all of the people who have contributed to her knowledge of UK speak. I
don’t know where in the series this one was written, but she would
have been accumulating UK-terminology-awareness from her earlier
books.

There are dozens of American authors, coincidentally mostly women, that
have written novels recently that are set in the UK or Paris
especially during the 2nd WW. They appear to have a knowledge of their
settings gained during a brief "Cook's Tour" visit. They are also
ignorant of idiomatic UK English speech.

Evidently, the tours arranged by the Thomas Cook Group did not include
adequate geographic information or glossaries to idiomatic UK English.
That would explain why the firm was liquidated in 2019.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”
I paid notice to this because the phrase “menu cards” has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be “handed
them laminated menus”.

Not necessarily. In AmE a laminated menu card would be a single "page"
menu, where most menus are a book format containing a few pages. Not a
common use, I agree.

Post by Tony Cooper
The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is “In A Dark House” by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

The author is from Texas, but lived in the UK.

Post by Tony Cooper
So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures?

A quick trip to Wikipedia would have answered this, but also common
sense: if an author writes about a location often and frequently, then
it's a safe bet they lived there.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 2 May 2021 04:29:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?
I paid notice to this because the phrase ?menu cards? has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be ?handed
them laminated menus?.

Not necessarily. In AmE a laminated menu card would be a single "page"
menu, where most menus are a book format containing a few pages. Not a
common use, I agree.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is ?In A Dark House? by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

The author is from Texas, but lived in the UK.

To be accurate, the author is from Texas, has lived in the UK, and
currently lives in Texas. The amount of time she lived in the UK is
not stated.

Post by Lewis

So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures?

A quick trip to Wikipedia would have answered this, but also common
sense: if an author writes about a location often and frequently, then
it's a safe bet they lived there.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 04:29:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?
I paid notice to this because the phrase ?menu cards? has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be ?handed
them laminated menus?.

Not necessarily. In AmE a laminated menu card would be a single "page"
menu, where most menus are a book format containing a few pages. Not a
common use, I agree.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is ?In A Dark House? by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

The author is from Texas, but lived in the UK.

To be accurate, the author is from Texas, has lived in the UK, and
currently lives in Texas. The amount of time she lived in the UK is

Which is consistent with what I said, though I did not know where she
lives now, I knew she lived in the UK, thus the past tense.

I looked at her web page which gives a bit more information, but no
dates.

"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 2 May 2021 06:49:55 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 04:29:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?
I paid notice to this because the phrase ?menu cards? has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be ?handed
them laminated menus?.

Not necessarily. In AmE a laminated menu card would be a single "page"
menu, where most menus are a book format containing a few pages. Not a
common use, I agree.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is ?In A Dark House? by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

The author is from Texas, but lived in the UK.

To be accurate, the author is from Texas, has lived in the UK, and
currently lives in Texas. The amount of time she lived in the UK is

Which is consistent with what I said, though I did not know where she
lives now, I knew she lived in the UK, thus the past tense.
I looked at her web page which gives a bit more information, but no
dates.
"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

How would living in Chester - which is up near Liverpool - add to her
knowledge of the streets of London's Southwark? The novel mentioned
is set in that area.

That's like saying that living in Denver provides the author with a
feel for the streets and venacular for a novel set in Brooklyn.

I'm not disputing that Crombie gets things right in her novels (as far
as I can tell), but my main point was that she receives support from a
number of other people.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 06:49:55 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 04:29:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?
I paid notice to this because the phrase ?menu cards? has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be ?handed
them laminated menus?.

Not necessarily. In AmE a laminated menu card would be a single "page"
menu, where most menus are a book format containing a few pages. Not a
common use, I agree.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is ?In A Dark House? by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

The author is from Texas, but lived in the UK.

To be accurate, the author is from Texas, has lived in the UK, and
currently lives in Texas. The amount of time she lived in the UK is

Which is consistent with what I said, though I did not know where she
lives now, I knew she lived in the UK, thus the past tense.
I looked at her web page which gives a bit more information, but no
dates.
"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

How would living in Chester - which is up near Liverpool - add to her
knowledge of the streets of London's Southwark? The novel mentioned
is set in that area.

I have no idea. I have no idea if her depiction of London is accurate.
I've only ever heard of her. I thought you said her knowledge of the
area was detailed and accurate?

Post by Tony Cooper
That's like saying that living in Denver provides the author with a
feel for the streets and venacular for a novel set in Brooklyn.

People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

That said, I have never lived in San Francisco, but I know the city
quite well. Partly because I have spent some time there and partly
because I really like the city. Could I set a story in San Francisco and
get the geography right? I certainly could. Would I make mistakes a
native San Franciscan would spot, almost certainly, but would they be
material errors? I doubt it.

I've spent more time in Richmond, VA, but I know that city not at all,
at least not on the level of knowing it well enough to use as a setting
for anything.

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not disputing that Crombie gets things right in her novels (as far
as I can tell), but my main point was that she receives support from a
number of other people.

It's possible, but you don't know that, or at least not to what things
she gets expert help on. Certainly any author has readers and experts
they run thing by to see if they track, but it would be a bit odd for
someone to be checking a map for every location in a book.

For example, it is pretty much universal for a mystery author to have
consultants into the facts of the poison they decide to use for their
story, or the forensic possibilities and things like that.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 2 May 2021 13:16:29 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis
"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

How would living in Chester - which is up near Liverpool - add to her
knowledge of the streets of London's Southwark? The novel mentioned
is set in that area.

I have no idea. I have no idea if her depiction of London is accurate.
I've only ever heard of her. I thought you said her knowledge of the
area was detailed and accurate?

It is as far as I can tell, but my point is that some of that
knowledge comes from the many people she cites in the Acknowledgement.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not disputing that Crombie gets things right in her novels (as far
as I can tell), but my main point was that she receives support from a
number of other people.

It's possible, but you don't know that, or at least not to what things
she gets expert help on.

Jesus X. Christ, Lewis. Have you followed this thread at all?

In my initial post I brought up the number of people she cites in the
Acknowledgement as having helped her. I know that because she states
that.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 13:16:29 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis
"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

How would living in Chester - which is up near Liverpool - add to her
knowledge of the streets of London's Southwark? The novel mentioned
is set in that area.

I have no idea. I have no idea if her depiction of London is accurate.
I've only ever heard of her. I thought you said her knowledge of the
area was detailed and accurate?

It is as far as I can tell, but my point is that some of that
knowledge comes from the many people she cites in the Acknowledgement.

Is that what she said?

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not disputing that Crombie gets things right in her novels (as far
as I can tell), but my main point was that she receives support from a
number of other people.

It's possible, but you don't know that, or at least not to what things
she gets expert help on.

Jesus X. Christ, Lewis. Have you followed this thread at all?
In my initial post I brought up the number of people she cites in the
Acknowledgement as having helped her. I know that because she states
that.

You do not know that the people she is acknowledging are helping her with
basic things like the geography of London, unless she specifically
called that out.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:07:08 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 13:16:29 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis
"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

How would living in Chester - which is up near Liverpool - add to her
knowledge of the streets of London's Southwark? The novel mentioned
is set in that area.

I have no idea. I have no idea if her depiction of London is accurate.
I've only ever heard of her. I thought you said her knowledge of the
area was detailed and accurate?

It is as far as I can tell, but my point is that some of that
knowledge comes from the many people she cites in the Acknowledgement.

Is that what she said?

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not disputing that Crombie gets things right in her novels (as far
as I can tell), but my main point was that she receives support from a
number of other people.

It's possible, but you don't know that, or at least not to what things
she gets expert help on.

Jesus X. Christ, Lewis. Have you followed this thread at all?
In my initial post I brought up the number of people she cites in the
Acknowledgement as having helped her. I know that because she states
that.

You do not know that the people she is acknowledging are helping her with
basic things like the geography of London, unless she specifically
called that out.

To use the Aggressive Question™ method: Why is she acknowledging the
input of those people unless they contributed information that she
used? Do you think she's thanking them for providing the name of a
local source on typewriter ribbon?

She cites Canon Bill Ritson for his "knowledge of Southwark" and Laura
Hartman Maestro for her "maps".

Acknowledgements from the author don't usually provide specific
details about what was contributed by the person. Sometimes (but not
in this case) a member of the police is acknowledged for input on
police procedures, though.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:07:08 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 13:16:29 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis
"A post-university trip to England, however, cemented a life-long
passion for Britain, and she later immigrated to the UK with her first
husband, Peter Crombie, a Scot, living first in Edinburgh, Scotland, and
then in Chester, England."

How would living in Chester - which is up near Liverpool - add to her
knowledge of the streets of London's Southwark? The novel mentioned
is set in that area.

I have no idea. I have no idea if her depiction of London is accurate.
I've only ever heard of her. I thought you said her knowledge of the
area was detailed and accurate?

It is as far as I can tell, but my point is that some of that
knowledge comes from the many people she cites in the Acknowledgement.

Is that what she said?

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not disputing that Crombie gets things right in her novels (as far
as I can tell), but my main point was that she receives support from a
number of other people.

It's possible, but you don't know that, or at least not to what things
she gets expert help on.

Jesus X. Christ, Lewis. Have you followed this thread at all?
In my initial post I brought up the number of people she cites in the
Acknowledgement as having helped her. I know that because she states
that.

You do not know that the people she is acknowledging are helping her with
basic things like the geography of London, unless she specifically
called that out.

To use the Aggressive Question™ method: Why is she acknowledging the
input of those people unless they contributed information that she
used? Do you think she's thanking them for providing the name of a
local source on typewriter ribbon?

Things that mystery authors thank people for include: information on police
procedures, facts about specific crimes, information about how a poison
works, how it is detected, how it can be administered, and how it might
be disguised in an autopsy. Information on the decay rate of bodies and
when blowflies appear, how long and under what conditions it takes to
mummify a body. They also thank their readers (not the ones buying the
books, a reader in this sense is the people reading the drafts and
catching typos and making suggestions about things they found confusing.
And probably at least 100 other things.

They may, or may not, call out specific people for specific help.

But to assume a writer doesn't know a specific thing in their book and
that someone else provided that knowledge is just silly unless they
specifically said so.

Post by Tony Cooper
She cites Canon Bill Ritson for his "knowledge of Southwark" and Laura
Hartman Maestro for her "maps".

Well, that might have been something to mention much earlier. So, she
got local export knowledge on Southwark. Specifically Southwark. As for
maps, that could mean anything. I have still not heard anything to make
we think she has no knowledge of London.

Aren't most her books set in London?

Post by Tony Cooper
Acknowledgements from the author don't usually provide specific
details about what was contributed by the person. Sometimes (but not
in this case) a member of the police is acknowledged for input on
police procedures, though.

Specific scientific or forensic knowledge is often explicitly mentioned
as well.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:41:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
She cites Canon Bill Ritson for his "knowledge of Southwark" and Laura
Hartman Maestro for her "maps".

Well, that might have been something to mention much earlier.

Why? For most readers, what I wrote was sufficient.

Post by Lewis
So, she
got local export knowledge on Southwark. Specifically Southwark. As for
maps, that could mean anything. I have still not heard anything to make
we think she has no knowledge of London.

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.

An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.

In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:41:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
She cites Canon Bill Ritson for his "knowledge of Southwark" and Laura
Hartman Maestro for her "maps".

Well, that might have been something to mention much earlier.

Why? For most readers, what I wrote was sufficient.

Because your entire point was questioning how she knew enough about
London to set her books there?

Post by Tony Cooper
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.

Maybe, but based on her bio and comments about frequent travel to
the UK, I doubt it.

Post by Tony Cooper
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

[s***@my-deja.com]

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from her
spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

[musika]

Post by s***@my-deja.com

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have
never suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What
I have said is that she had a support group that could have
provided geographic details and venacular suggestions. An author
who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here. In
this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory.
Contacting a local back in London and saying "I want to write..."
and have that person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK". I won't wear that.
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each book
she writes also helps.

[Lewis]

Post by musika

Post by s***@my-deja.com

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have
never suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What
I have said is that she had a support group that could have
provided geographic details and venacular suggestions. An author
who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here. In
this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory.
Contacting a local back in London and saying "I want to write..."
and have that person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK". I won't wear that.

It is not a common name in the US.

Post by musika
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each book
she writes also helps.

Yep.

[CDB]

Post by Lewis

Post by musika

Post by s***@my-deja.com

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have
never suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London.
What I have said is that she had a support group that could
have provided geographic details and venacular suggestions. An
author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit
from supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from
other residents of the city. That is what I think is the case
here. In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and
is writing about London. She may remember a particular building
she wants to include, but not be sure of some feature of it
from memory. Contacting a local back in London and saying "I
want to write..." and have that person review it could prevent
an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come
from her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level
of UK knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of
London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge
of the UK". I won't wear that.

It is not a common name in the US.

Close, though. David crombie is still remembered as Toronto's Tiny
Perfect Mayor.

Post by Lewis

Post by musika
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each
book she writes also helps.

Yep.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Lewis

Post by musika

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have
never suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London.
What I have said is that she had a support group that could
have provided geographic details and venacular suggestions. An
author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit
from supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from
other residents of the city. That is what I think is the case
here. In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and
is writing about London. She may remember a particular building
she wants to include, but not be sure of some feature of it
from memory. Contacting a local back in London and saying "I
want to write..." and have that person review it could prevent
an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come
from her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level
of UK knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of
London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge
of the UK". I won't wear that.

It is not a common name in the US.

Close, though. David crombie is still remembered as Toronto's Tiny
Perfect Mayor.

He was mayor shortly before I moved to Toronto in '81. And he's still alive at 95.

bill

[Janet]

Post by Lewis

Post by musika

Post by s***@my-deja.com

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have
never suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What
I have said is that she had a support group that could have
provided geographic details and venacular suggestions. An author
who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here. In
this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory.
Contacting a local back in London and saying "I want to write..."
and have that person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK". I won't wear that.

It is not a common name in the US.

It's a Scottish name,not unusual in the UK.

Brits of all four nations
explored and colonised the world for hundreds of years.
The world is littered with their offspring and names.

Janet

[charles]

Post by Janet

Post by Lewis

Post by musika

Post by s***@my-deja.com

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions. An author who is
familiar with a city like London may benefit from supplemental
information on specific neighborhoods from other residents of the
city. That is what I think is the case here. In this case, it's an
author who now lives in Texas and is writing about London. She may
remember a particular building she wants to include, but not be
sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting a local back in
London and saying "I want to write..." and have that person review
it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge
of the UK". I won't wear that.

It is not a common name in the US.

It's a Scottish name,not unusual in the UK.
Brits of all four nations explored and colonised the world for hundreds
of years. The world is littered with their offspring and names.
Janet

and the Highland Clearances accounted for a great many more

[s***@my-deja.com]

Post by musika

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have
never suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What
I have said is that she had a support group that could have
provided geographic details and venacular suggestions. An author
who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here. In
this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory.
Contacting a local back in London and saying "I want to write..."
and have that person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK".
I won't wear that.

That's a bit rich. You could.

Post by musika
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each book
she writes also helps.

That piece of information came later in the thread

[musika]

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by musika

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of
UK knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of
London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge
of the UK".
I won't wear that.

That's a bit rich. You could.

Thank you for noticing.

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by musika
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each
book she writes also helps.

That piece of information came later in the thread

Ignoring that, why do you think that having the name Crombie "is an
enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK knowledge..."

[s***@my-deja.com]

Post by musika

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by musika

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from
her spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of
UK knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of
London

You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge
of the UK.
I won't wear that.

That's a bit rich. You could.

Thank you for noticing.

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by musika
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each
book she writes also helps.

That piece of information came later in the thread

Ignoring that, why do you think that having the name Crombie "is an
enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK knowledge..."

It's a fairly localised name. I would expect all Crombies in the US,
however many or few they may be, to have some kind of UK
connection bearing in mind the direction of migration over the
past few hundred years.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by musika
You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK". I won't wear that.
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each book
she writes also helps.

I read the latter part of that last sentence as

She has a holiday in the UK and offsets all costs against tax as "Research".

[Lewis]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by musika
You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK". I won't wear that.
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each book
she writes also helps.

I read the latter part of that last sentence as
She has a holiday in the UK and offsets all costs against tax as "Research".

There used to be a photography gallery next door to us many years ago,
and several of the photographers admitted they'd been attracted to the
profession for the ability to write-off their travels all over the world.

One had shot on all seven continents.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by musika
You think that all the American Crombies have a "level of knowledge of
the UK". I won't wear that.
Knowing that her first husband was British is a much bigger clue.
Knowing that she lived in Britain and visits 2 or 3 times for each book
she writes also helps.

I read the latter part of that last sentence as
She has a holiday in the UK and offsets all costs against tax as "Research".

While tax write-offs as business expenses are abused, I think that a
person whose income comes from writing books is entitled to deduct
costs of travel to do research for those books. Within limits.

The trip should be for the specific purpose of that research, and
costs incurred on days not engaged in that research should not be
included.

On a similar note, I would think that PTD should be able to declare
most of the expenses of his trip to Oxford as business expenses if the
trip was for the purpose of establishing his reputation as an author
and promoting his book. In declaring the business expenses, any
expenses for his side trip to Brighton (I think it was Brighten) would
not be deductible. If he received compensation for his presentation,
that would be deducted from his expenses.

Just to avoid conflict, I'm not saying he did declare the costs as a
business expense or failed to exclude improperly declared expenses.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On a similar note, I would think that PTD should be able to declare
most of the expenses of his trip to Oxford as business expenses if the
trip was for the purpose of establishing his reputation as an author
and promoting his book. In declaring the business expenses, any
expenses for his side trip to Brighton (I think it was Brighten) would
not be deductible. If he received compensation for his presentation,
that would be deducted from his expenses.

This is utter bullshit, based on astonishingly false assumptions.

Not that you care about truth or accuracy, but the international meeting
in Brighton was the main purpose of the trip.

Post by Tony Cooper
Just to avoid conflict, I'm not saying he did declare the costs as a
business expense or failed to exclude improperly declared expenses.

[Janet]

In article <d9c96b8d-f523-4264-a27a-
***@googlegroups.com>, ***@my-deja.com
says...

Post by s***@my-deja.com

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from her
spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

??????. Many people with a Scottish surname have never
set foot in Scotland, or England, or any other part of
Britain.

Janet.

[s***@my-deja.com]

semir... says...

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from her
spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

??????. Many people with a Scottish surname have never
set foot in Scotland, or England, or any other part of
Britain.

Absolutely. When, however, they write a book with a UK setting...

Somebody called Crombie has more of a chance of a UK connection
than someone called - say - Schmidt or Eisenhower.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Janet
In article <d9c96b8d-f523-4264-a27a-
says...

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

The author's surname, albeit that it turns out to have come from her
spouse, is an enormous clue to her possession of a level of UK
knowledge, although not necessarily specific knowledge of London

??????. Many people with a Scottish surname have never
set foot in Scotland, or England, or any other part of
Britain.

Much as my great-grandparents were all immigrants from eastern Europe,
but I couldn't tell you the direction from Warsaw to Cracow, or name a
single thing in Vilnius or Bucharest, without looking at a map.

[Graham]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:41:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
She cites Canon Bill Ritson for his "knowledge of Southwark" and Laura
Hartman Maestro for her "maps".

Well, that might have been something to mention much earlier.

Why? For most readers, what I wrote was sufficient.

Post by Lewis
So, she
got local export knowledge on Southwark. Specifically Southwark. As for
maps, that could mean anything. I have still not heard anything to make
we think she has no knowledge of London.

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

Isn't the first rule of authorship: "Write about what you know" ?

[Ken Blake]

Post by Graham

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:41:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
She cites Canon Bill Ritson for his "knowledge of Southwark" and Laura
Hartman Maestro for her "maps".

Well, that might have been something to mention much earlier.

Why? For most readers, what I wrote was sufficient.

Post by Lewis
So, she
got local export knowledge on Southwark. Specifically Southwark. As for
maps, that could mean anything. I have still not heard anything to make
we think she has no knowledge of London.

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. I have never
suggested that she has no personal knowledge of London. What I have
said is that she had a support group that could have provided
geographic details and venacular suggestions.
An author who is familiar with a city like London may benefit from
supplemental information on specific neighborhoods from other
residents of the city. That is what I think is the case here.
In this case, it's an author who now lives in Texas and is writing
about London. She may remember a particular building she wants to
include, but not be sure of some feature of it from memory. Contacting
a local back in London and saying "I want to write..." and have that
person review it could prevent an error.

Isn't the first rule of authorship: "Write about what you know" ?

That leaves out all science fiction.

(...and come to think of it, a lot of news reporting)

[[e-mail]]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Graham
Isn't the first rule of authorship: "Write about what you know" ?

First research, then write. That's true for most kinds of writing.

Post by Ken Blake
That leaves out all science fiction.

No. Many SF writers have scientific backgrounds, and many of those
who don't, nevertheless research the science behind whatever they're
writing about before beginning to write.

Post by Ken Blake
(...and come to think of it, a lot of news reporting)

Give me a break. Unless all you read is the British tabloid press or the National Inquirer
and their ilk, most of what you know about the state of the world comes from honest
and accurate news reporting. You insult me and all the honest news people I
worked with for 45 or so years.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Graham
Isn't the first rule of authorship: "Write about what you know" ?

That leaves out all science fiction.
(...and come to think of it, a lot of news reporting)

And most political speeches.

I see that bill has objected to your comment about news reporting. The
reporting was fairly honest in his day, but the newspaper world is
changing. For example, over 60% (I think I have the number correct) of
Australian newspapers are owned by Rupert Murdoch, and he actively
forces his employees to do biased reporting.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 4 May 2021 12:51:15 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Graham
Isn't the first rule of authorship: "Write about what you know" ?

That leaves out all science fiction.
(...and come to think of it, a lot of news reporting)

And most political speeches.
I see that bill has objected to your comment about news reporting. The
reporting was fairly honest in his day, but the newspaper world is
changing. For example, over 60% (I think I have the number correct) of
Australian newspapers are owned by Rupert Murdoch, and he actively
forces his employees to do biased reporting.

My news aggregator frequently links to articles in the New York Post.
(A Murdoch newspaper) Usually the article has a sensationalist
anti-Biden headline.

You may have read about the Post reporter who was ordered to write a
false news story about Kamela Harris's books being distributed to
migrants:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/27/business/media/new-york-post-kamala-harris.html

[[e-mail]]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Graham
Isn't the first rule of authorship: "Write about what you know" ?

That leaves out all science fiction.
(...and come to think of it, a lot of news reporting)

And most political speeches.
I see that bill has objected to your comment about news reporting. The
reporting was fairly honest in his day, but the newspaper world is
changing. For example, over 60% (I think I have the number correct) of
Australian newspapers are owned by Rupert Murdoch, and he actively
forces his employees to do biased reporting.

I know about Murdoch's properties around the world, but he has virtually no presence
in Canada. Not only was reporting in Canada fairly honest in my day, but it continues
to be my day in Canada despite my retirement. We have some so-far-effective restrictions on the books
with regard to foreign ownership of news media. Hallelujah. I regret that your government and some
others did not have the same foresight.

bill

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.

My internal jury is still out on that.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

When I was in the UK on our trips there, I was still harboring the US
"60 miles = 60 minutes driving time" mentality. I soon found out that
"10 miles = 60 minutes driving time" from certain destinations to
other destinations.

In the US, I might ask someone how far it is to some destination, and
the answer is usually in miles. I'll estimate the driving time based
on that.

In the UK, I learned to ask how much time I should allow to get to the
destination. The answers were not always right, but they were closer
than if I asked about the distance.

It can be fascinating to ask for directions in Ireland. If you ask a
local how to get to (name of place), the reply might well start out
"And what we you wanting to go there for?". It wasn't an unfriendly
or nosy question; it was a question that invited a conversation. In
the ensuring ten minutes you might find out that his sister lives
there, he sold a greyhound pup two years ago to someone who lives
there, or somewhere else would be a better destination and why that
other destination would be better.

If it was a short distance, as in from where I was standing to a
particular pub, the person asked was just as likely to lead me there
instead of telling me how to get there. Or, to lead me to someone
else who was more likely to know how to get there.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

When I was in the UK on our trips there, I was still harboring the US
"60 miles = 60 minutes driving time" mentality. I soon found out that
"10 miles = 60 minutes driving time" from certain destinations to
other destinations.

That's a reasonable estimate for intercity travel involving Interstates.
It would be a very bad estimate in places like NYC, Boston, Los Angeles,
San Francisco, Atlanta, etc. Even in Denver, if I drive to my friend;s
house across town the drive distance is only about 25 miles, but it will
take 45-55m to get there, but only 35 on a weekend.

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, I learned to ask how much time I should allow to get to the
destination. The answers were not always right, but they were closer
than if I asked about the distance.

IME most of the time I ask how far something is I get an answer in time,
even in the US.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

When I was in the UK on our trips there, I was still harboring the US
"60 miles = 60 minutes driving time" mentality. I soon found out that
"10 miles = 60 minutes driving time" from certain destinations to
other destinations.

That's a reasonable estimate for intercity travel involving Interstates.
It would be a very bad estimate in places like NYC, Boston, Los Angeles,
San Francisco, Atlanta, etc. Even in Denver, if I drive to my friend;s
house across town the drive distance is only about 25 miles, but it will
take 45-55m to get there, but only 35 on a weekend.

Yes. And it often depends on what time of day it is. Rush hour driving
into or out of a big city can take much longer

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

When I was in the UK on our trips there, I was still harboring the US
"60 miles = 60 minutes driving time" mentality. I soon found out that
"10 miles = 60 minutes driving time" from certain destinations to
other destinations.

That's a reasonable estimate for intercity travel involving Interstates.
It would be a very bad estimate in places like NYC, Boston, Los Angeles,
San Francisco, Atlanta, etc. Even in Denver, if I drive to my friend;s
house across town the drive distance is only about 25 miles, but it will
take 45-55m to get there, but only 35 on a weekend.

Yes. And it often depends on what time of day it is. Rush hour driving
into or out of a big city can take much longer

Yes, but Lewis's point was rather silly. I wouldn't be using the "60
miles = 60 minutes of driving time" if I was going to be driving
within the city. No one would.

Nor would I consider going from one city destination to another a
"trip" in the same context.

What I will add as an adjustment is which way I'm going when I leave
Orlando. For destinations to the north, the 60/60 figure is
reasonable. For destinations to the south, I have to add the time it
takes me to go through Orlando to get to the open highway. I live on
the north side of town.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

When I was in the UK on our trips there, I was still harboring the US
"60 miles = 60 minutes driving time" mentality. I soon found out that
"10 miles = 60 minutes driving time" from certain destinations to
other destinations.

That's a reasonable estimate for intercity travel involving Interstates.
It would be a very bad estimate in places like NYC, Boston, Los Angeles,
San Francisco, Atlanta, etc. Even in Denver, if I drive to my friend;s
house across town the drive distance is only about 25 miles, but it will
take 45-55m to get there, but only 35 on a weekend.

Yes. And it often depends on what time of day it is. Rush hour driving
into or out of a big city can take much longer

Yes, but Lewis's point was rather silly. I wouldn't be using the "60
miles = 60 minutes of driving time" if I was going to be driving
within the city. No one would.

That is the majority of people's driving.

Post by Tony Cooper
What I will add as an adjustment is which way I'm going when I leave
Orlando. For destinations to the north, the 60/60 figure is
reasonable. For destinations to the south, I have to add the time it
takes me to go through Orlando to get to the open highway. I live on
the north side of town.

And if you are going somewhere where there is not an Interstate or
equivalent highway convenient, your time will also be much slower. If I
drive on I-70 into the mountains I can pretty much count on 60MPH. If I
have to take a state highway up the mountains, it's more like 30MPH
average if it's a two lane highway, and if I get stuck behind some
flatlander in an RV it can drop to 20mhp.

Going to Estes Park involves a good highway up to Boulder, then driving
on surface streets for a bit, or taking a bypass and then less surface
streets that works out to about the same time, then a two lane US
highway (one lane each direction) up the mountains to Estes Park.

Total distance is about 75 miles and you can pretty much count on it
taking 2 hours, half of that is moutanin driving up a canyon. It can
easily be 3 hours, or even more if there is a winter storm.

Salida, CO is to the south, and there are no interstates involved in
getting there, though US-285 is a good road and is four lanes most of
the way, but still has low speed limit areas, stop lights, and stretches
with no passing zones and the inevitable person from a stat with no
mountains driving their RV 20mph and refusing to use the pull-outs as
state law requires. That trip is a little over 120 miles and during the
day takes 3 - 3.5 hours. There is an alternate route that involves more
Interstate driving, but it is at least 30 minutes longer, and that
assumes you do not hit construction in Colorado Springs. In the entire
time I have lived in Colorado, there has never been a day where I did
not hit construction in Colorado Springs.

Both of these places are places we go (er, went) with some regularity.

In addition, I used to drive all over the state and know that if you get
off the 2 1/2¹ Interstates your speed drops precipitously.

I also do not recommend you count on averaging 60mph driving on the east
coast. For example, the drive from Richmond VA to Washington DC which I
have made many times is an Interstate and mostly rural, but can easily
be a 20-30mph traffic jam the entire way. And often, there is no rhyme
nor reason for why it is so slow. I've certainly made that drive in
under 2 hours, but I've also had it take 5. There's nothing quite like
being in bumper to bumper traffic on a stretch of highway 50 miles from
the nearest city.

¹ I-25, I-70, and I-76 is the half. You can average 80mph on I-76, but
that's because it goes through a vast wasteland, there are no other
cars, and you have to want to go to Nebraska. I am not counting I-270 or
I-225 as separate Interstates, and they only exist within Denver anyway.

[Lewis]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

It is still 200 miles or so, and it does not take multiple days to drive
there are, say, Denver to New York. I have a friend you lives outside
Glasgow and he is in London several times a year. His brother, in
Nottingham, hardly ever travels to any other cities.

Post by Sam Plusnet
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they
live in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as
London is from Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of
hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a
US sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

My first driving experience in the UK was from Glasgow to the Isle of
Skye. It's not an especially long distance. My memory from the drive,
though, is that they're a long way apart.

My attitude is different when the roads aren't so narrow. Years ago, I
hit a bad crisis in my life, and a friend in Canberra invited me to stay
for a week. I was packed and in my car less than half an hour from the
end of that phone call, and I drove down. It's a drive of about five or
six hours (depending on the traffic jams through Sydney), but it's
freeway standard all the way, so it didn't seem like a long distance to go.

[Graham]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they
live in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as
London is from Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of
hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a
US sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

My first driving experience in the UK was from Glasgow to the Isle of
Skye. It's not an especially long distance. My memory from the drive,
though, is that they're a long way apart.
My attitude is different when the roads aren't so narrow. Years ago, I
hit a bad crisis in my life, and a friend in Canberra invited me to stay
for a week. I was packed and in my car less than half an hour from the
end of that phone call, and I drove down. It's a drive of about five or
six hours (depending on the traffic jams through Sydney), but it's
freeway standard all the way, so it didn't seem like a long distance to go.

In the 60s I used to drive the 180+ miles to my uni in about 5.5 hours.
When I did it about 10 years ago, it took about 2.5 hours. Motorways had
been constucted in the interim.

[s***@my-deja.com]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

Post by Sam Plusnet
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

"Distance is a state of mind!"

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 3 May 2021 01:25:49 -0700 (PDT)

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

Post by Sam Plusnet
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.
My internal jury is still out on that.

"Distance is a state of mind!"

I'd suggest the actual criterion is the wear & tear on nerves; cruising at 60 (or even 50) is unmemorable; but heavy traffic, route-finding, giving way, roundabouts etc cause frayed nerves.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel one
day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.

Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at each end.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel one
day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.
Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at each end.

That's crazy! NY to Boston or DC (about the same distance) is around $50
(when ordered a month in advance) (not on the fancy Acela). I'll be doing
both of those next year -- the Oriental Society in March and the Linguistic
Society in January respectively -- unless the prices have soared since 2018
and 2016 respectively. (Though in 2020 I was going to take the MegaBus
to Boston for the AOS meeting that got canceled, and lucked into the one
$1 seat per bus.)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel one
day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.
Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at each end.

Were the fares that high when the railways were in public hands?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 4 May 2021 12:52:29 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel one
day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.
Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at each end.

Were the fares that high when the railways were in public hands?

Taking the train from Orlando to Jacksonville is a 3 hour and 15
minute trip station-to-station. A round trip ticket is $36.00.

[s***@my-deja.com]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live
in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London
is from Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of hundred
miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you take
the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off peak fares used
to be reasonable and start quite early in the morning. I don't know what
the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel one
day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.
Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at each end.

Were the fares that high when the railways were in public hands?

In a word, no.

The method of privatisation involved the introduction of "competition" between
various operating companies, the length of whose occupation of the role was
far too short to get pay back for the rolling stock.

This meant that the engines and carriages passed into the hands of various
leasing companies at a time of sky high interest rates.

The new operating companies went all out to buy new rolling stock.

It carried on from there...

(unless you know better...)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one
they live in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles
away as London is from Chester. More accurate would be
Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple
of hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided
you take the train. It's about two and a half hours each way.
Off peak fares used to be reasonable and start quite early in
the morning. I don't know what the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket -
travel one day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as
£222. Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at
each end.

Were the fares that high when the railways were in public hands?

In a word, no.
The method of privatisation involved the introduction of
"competition" between various operating companies, the length of
whose occupation of the role was far too short to get pay back for
the rolling stock.
This meant that the engines and carriages passed into the hands of
various leasing companies at a time of sky high interest rates.
The new operating companies went all out to buy new rolling stock.
It carried on from there...
(unless you know better...)

A good example, then, of what happens when you sell public assets to
your friends. We've had our own string of examples showing that
privatisation leads to rising prices and falling service, but the
government never learns.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one
they live in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles
away as London is from Chester. More accurate would be
Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple
of hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided
you take the train. It's about two and a half hours each way.
Off peak fares used to be reasonable and start quite early in
the morning. I don't know what the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket -
travel one day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as
£222. Add on the cost & time getting to & from the station at
each end.

Were the fares that high when the railways were in public hands?

In a word, no.
The method of privatisation involved the introduction of
"competition" between various operating companies, the length of
whose occupation of the role was far too short to get pay back for
the rolling stock.
This meant that the engines and carriages passed into the hands of
various leasing companies at a time of sky high interest rates.
The new operating companies went all out to buy new rolling stock.
It carried on from there...
(unless you know better...)

A good example, then, of what happens when you sell public assets to
your friends. We've had our own string of examples showing that
privatisation leads to rising prices and falling service, but the
government never learns.

Oh, I think they learn: they learn that corruption is an effective way
to enrich themselves and their friends.

[Peter Moylan]

[expensive rail tickets in the UK]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan
A good example, then, of what happens when you sell public assets
to your friends. We've had our own string of examples showing that
privatisation leads to rising prices and falling service, but the
government never learns.

Oh, I think they learn: they learn that corruption is an effective
way to enrich themselves and their friends.

One of Australia's recent scandals is to do with aged care homes. When
Victoria was having its second covid-19 wave, it turned out that the
death rate was very high in private sector aged care homes (which
receive federal funding) but not a real problem in public sector aged
care homes (with state government funding). This was a good test case,
because it looks like Victoria is the only state where non-privatised
aged care homes still exist.

Subsequently, it was found that in aged care homes all over the country
the residents were suffering from dehydration, malnutrition, and various
other symptoms of poor management. Medications are being given by
untrained staff, because they don't want to employ qualified nurses.
Cases of assault, including sexual assault by staff, are turning up. In
short, the whole system is a mess. About the only way these places score
highly is executive salaries.

There's now lots of public pressure to improve regulations, improve
inspections, and improve funding. But the government's priority seems to
be on ensuring that the aged care providers can't be sued for mismanagement.

[CDB]

Post by Peter Moylan
[expensive rail tickets in the UK]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan
A good example, then, of what happens when you sell public assets
to your friends. We've had our own string of examples showing that
 privatisation leads to rising prices and falling service, but the
 government never learns.

Oh, I think they learn: they learn that corruption is an effective
way to enrich themselves and their friends.

One of Australia's recent scandals is to do with aged care homes. When
Victoria was having its second covid-19 wave, it turned out that the
death rate was very high in private sector aged care homes (which
receive federal funding) but not a real problem in public sector aged
care homes (with state government funding). This was a good test case,
because it looks like Victoria is the only state where non-privatised
aged care homes still exist.
Subsequently, it was found that in aged care homes all over the country
the residents were suffering from dehydration, malnutrition, and various
other symptoms of poor management. Medications are being given by
untrained staff, because they don't want to employ qualified nurses.
Cases of assault, including sexual assault by staff, are turning up. In
short, the whole system is a mess. About the only way these places score
highly is executive salaries.
There's now lots of public pressure to improve regulations, improve
inspections, and improve funding. But the government's priority seems to
be on ensuring that the aged care providers can't be sued for
mismanagement.

Much the same here in Ontario. Thousands dead and horrific revelations
of neglect and abuse, followed by Government attempts to deflect blame
and protect the private LTC industry.

At the moment, the Stupid Party are suffering in the polls, but they
will probably send Premier Porkchop into the wilderness with their sins
upon him and try to recover.

All our sins, really. The trouble is that, under the rhetoric, those
places are warehouses for people waiting to die. Why coddle them? I
resolved long ago that, if I was faced by that prospect, I would die
without waiting.

[HVS]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they
live in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as
London is from Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of
hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you
take the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off
peak fares used to be reasonable and start quite early in the
morning. I don't know what the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel
one day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.

That sounds right, but I suspect it's for an "anytime" ticket.

The fare for an off-peak return (out one day and back the other,
travelling after 0900 or 1000, which I suspect would suit most leisure
travellers), is listed at £94.50.

That's still a lot, but not in scary £200+ range.

[charles]

Post by HVS

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they
live in, especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as
London is from Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of
hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.

London from Chester is quite a convenient day trip - provided you
take the train. It's about two and a half hours each way. Off
peak fares used to be reasonable and start quite early in the
morning. I don't know what the situation is today.

A quick and dirty search for the price of an adult ticket - travel
one day, return on the next day - gave a cheapest fare as £222.

That sounds right, but I suspect it's for an "anytime" ticket.
The fare for an off-peak return (out one day and back the other,
travelling after 0900 or 1000, which I suspect would suit most leisure
travellers), is listed at £94.50.

and, with a Senior Railcard 1/3 off that

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of
hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.

I think my first (American) wife adapted quickly to UK ideas about
that. Nowadays there is motorway from the outskirts of Birmingham to
Exeter (and the A38 is much like a motorway considerably beyond
Exeter). That wasn't at all the case in 1970, when the motorway didn't
even reach Gloucester, and the bit that existed only had two lanes in
each direction*, as it was done on the cheap in the dying days of the
13 years of Tory misrule. The A38 was misery over most of its length.

*Worse than that, even the bridges over the motorway were done on the
cheap, leaving no room for third lanes when they got around to widening
it, so all the bridges had to be demolished and rebuilt.

Post by Sam Plusnet
My internal jury is still out on that.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think my first (American) wife adapted quickly to UK ideas about
that. Nowadays there is motorway from the outskirts of Birmingham to
Exeter (and the A38 is much like a motorway considerably beyond
Exeter). That wasn't at all the case in 1970, when the motorway
didn't even reach Gloucester, and the bit that existed only had two
lanes in each direction*, as it was done on the cheap in the dying
days of the 13 years of Tory misrule. The A38 was misery over most
of its length.
*Worse than that, even the bridges over the motorway were done on
the cheap, leaving no room for third lanes when they got around to
widening it, so all the bridges had to be demolished and rebuilt.

Traffic from Newcastle city to Newcastle airport has to cross a bridge
that was a notorious bottleneck. The problem was that it had only one
lane in each direction. After years of lobbying, a new four-lane bridge
was announced. Not long before construction began, somebody decided that
money could be saved by having only one lane in each direction. So the
old bridge was demolished and replaced by an equally narrow bridge.

A couple of years later, the situation had become so intolerable that
the new bridge also had to be demolished. So much for saving money.

But that wasn't an isolated example. These "money-saving" initiatives
keep wasting a fortune on numerous projects.

P.S. Nobody, apparently, thought of keeping both the old and new
bridges. Well, the public thought of it, but the politicians didn't.

[Graham]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis
People do spend a lot of time in cities other than the one they live in,
especially ones only a couple hundred miles away as London is from
Chester. More accurate would be Boston to NYC.

You are using a North American concept of "it's only a couple of
hundred miles" whilst, in the UK, that is a long journey.
I'm trying to decide if an American living in the UK would retain a US
sensibility to distance, or conform to the local model.

I think my first (American) wife adapted quickly to UK ideas about that.
Nowadays there is motorway from the outskirts of Birmingham to Exeter
(and the A38 is much like a motorway considerably beyond Exeter). That
wasn't at all the case in 1970, when the motorway didn't even reach
Gloucester, and the bit that existed only had two lanes in each
direction*, as it was done on the cheap in the dying days of the 13
years of Tory misrule. The A38 was misery over most of its length.
*Worse than that, even the bridges over the motorway were done on the
cheap, leaving no room for third lanes when they got around to widening
it, so all the bridges had to be demolished and rebuilt.

You should see the combination flyover/roundabout at the junction of the
A12 and A14 at Ipswich. Two major roads joining with ever-increasing
traffic going to the Felixtowe container port. As traffic increased,
they installed several sets of traffic lights on the damn thing and 2
mile jams are frequent on the A12.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 2 May 2021 04:29:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?
I paid notice to this because the phrase ?menu cards? has been
attributed to UK English. In American English it would be ?handed
them laminated menus?.

Not necessarily. In AmE a laminated menu card would be a single "page"
menu, where most menus are a book format containing a few pages. Not a
common use, I agree.

The setting is a restaurant in London. The author is a Texan. The
book is ?In A Dark House? by Deborah Crombie. It is one in her series
of novels about Scotland Yard detectives Duncan Kincaid and Gemma
James.

The author is from Texas, but lived in the UK.

To be accurate, the author is from Texas, has lived in the UK, and
currently lives in Texas. The amount of time she lived in the UK is
not stated.

Post by Lewis

So how does a Texas author know the UK usage? Not just in this, but
in her very detailed description of streets and buildings in the
London Borough of Southwark in this novel? And Scotland Yard
procedures?

A quick trip to Wikipedia would have answered this, but also common
sense: if an author writes about a location often and frequently, then
it's a safe bet they lived there.

I lived in Santa Barbara during the time the anti-war protestors burned
down the bank. I think Thomas Pynchon's account of that event sounds
like he was there too. I think TP's biography is still private enough that
whether he was or not is still impossible to determine.

PS: I now live in Humboldt County (Northern California) and know he
lived here (in a town called Trinidad) for the better part of a year in.
as I remember, 1973 thus explaining his book "Vineland".

PPS: I am using information supplied by local historians.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”

Why is your post full of squiggles?

Post by Tony Cooper
I paid notice to this

¿?

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Paul Carmichael

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?

Why is your post full of squiggles?

I paid notice to this

¿?

My post was not full of squiggles on my screen. The first anomalies
appeared on my screen when Lewis replied to my post and those ? were
added. They appear when I am quoted.

I thing it has something to do with one newsreader not agreeing with
another newsreader.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Paul Carmichael

?A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.?

Why is your post full of squiggles?

I paid notice to this

¿?

My post was not full of squiggles on my screen. The first anomalies
appeared on my screen when Lewis replied to my post and those ? were
added. They appear when I am quoted.

They appeared for me in the original post.

Post by Tony Cooper
I thing it has something to do with one newsreader not agreeing with
another newsreader.

I believe maybe you copypasted some dodgy quote marks. Either that or
your charset is broken.

[Lewis]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”

Why is your post full of squiggles?

He posted using

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My browser, and possibly yours, wants UTF-8.

Windows software is extremely reluctant to use UTF-8.

Post by Paul Carmichael
¿?

I winder if the ¿ will appear correctly for Tony? It should because his
browser SHOULD respect my content type, but I don't know if it actually
does as many do not.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:12:04 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Lewis

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Tony Cooper
“A waiter seated them at a small table near the back of the restaurant
and handed them laminated menu cards.”

I get 2 half domino 4s

Post by Lewis

Post by Paul Carmichael
Why is your post full of squiggles?

He posted using
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
My browser, and possibly yours, wants UTF-8.
Windows software is extremely reluctant to use UTF-8.

Post by Paul Carmichael
¿?

I winder if the ¿ will appear correctly for Tony? It should because his
browser SHOULD respect my content type, but I don't know if it actually
does as many do not.
--
IT DOES NOT SUCK TO BE YOU Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF13