Post by Datesfat ChicksTeaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not seeing
what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or maybe
twice.
As previously stated, your inability to even imagine the things that
can go wrong is an indicator of the lack of preparation you have for
the described task. But you don't want to hear that, so you don't.
So, what will you do if the "student" panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
grassy embankment, and into traffic on the adjacent street?
That would be unlikely with Janet. She is familiar with mechanical things
in general, can ride a bicycle, and can drive a stick.
It is unlikely in the extreme with any student. However, we are not
talking about odds, we are responding to your request for opinions,
and susequently, your question "what could go wrong."
One of the first exercises I'd do with her, of course, is to show her how to
start the motorcycle, how to use the engine cutoff switch, how to brake,
etc. I might even do those things with me on the back (just for a bit,
despite the weight restrictions).
And then there are the traditional rocking and duck walk exercises.
And then there is the wrist angle.
Also, we will be on a LARGE piece of pavement with no curbs at the edges.
That gives her a LONG time to think without panicing. She'll do fine.
She may do fine; she may not. You asked for opinions, and they were
given. If you had previously made up your mind, then opinions would
not be needed. Clearly, opinions are not valued or considered, so why
request them?
Post by Datesfat ChicksWhat will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
the student's ankle under the exhaust pipe, causing second-degree
burns?
She'll be wearing proper boots. Also, I know from experience that the rear
turn signals, the handlebars, and the pegs won't allow that to happen. And
I'll be there to get it off of her quickly (but of course that is still long
enough for a burn).
Yes. Interestingly enough, motorcycles sometimes do things that we do
not expect, and sometimes we are not able to react to or correct
situations as we had hoped we would.
Post by Datesfat ChicksWhat will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
from its sidestand, loses her balance, falls over *with* the bike,
sticks her arm out to catch herself, and suffers a compound fracture
of her arm?
There are exercises for that as well. And I'll be on the right side of the
bike the first few times.
And she'll be wearing one of my jackets with foam in the forearms and
elbows. (Something that most MSF BRC students aren't wearing.)
None of which will guarantee that such an accident will not befall
your student, either under your amateur tutelege or at the BRC.
Post by Datesfat ChicksThose are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
Ah, fair enough.
But don't forget that I know the student, and there is only one student.
I will say that I have taught a fair number of folks personally. I
taught them one-on-one. Believe me, there was no advantage conferred
by the student/teacher ratio.
Believe me, if there was anything in her personality that I was afraid of, I
wouldn't be doing this. I've watched her drive a car (with me in it), and
she knows enough. She'll be fine.
In which case, no opinions need be sought, responded to, or discarded.
In the general case, with the traditional MSF herd ... I'm not qualified.
Well, now we come to the crux of the issue, don't we. It has been
clear in this thread that you hold the MSF-curriculum rider training
courses offered in your area in contempt.
But with a single person where I know the aptitudes ... it will be fine.
In which case, no opinions need be sought, responded to, or discarded.
Also, she will be the third untrained woman that I've showed how to tool
around at low speed on my bike. The other two didn't panic. I think she'll
actually do better than the other two.
In which case, no opinions need be sought, responded to, or discarded.
Post by Datesfat ChicksMore to the point, perhaps, is what purpose will be served by amateur
training, especially *if* it results in even "innocuous" and
"expected" dropping of the bike? People can, do, and should learn
how to ride WITHOUT dropping of the bike being expected, and many do
so without ever dropping the bike at all.
Actually, I can do a better job of creating a comfortable learning
environment than the MSF. The MSF classes are cattle classes, and they
typically force students to do things they are uncomfortable with at every
step. That is necessary (otherwise it isn't quick learning), but it isn't a
very friendly environment.
I'm afraid that I do not share your opinion of the MSF-curriculum
classes.
As far as the purpose ... I'd just like to get her riding around, starting,
braking, shifting in both directions, and doing box exercises. That way the
MSF class will be unthreatening and she can refine her technique and listen
carefully to what the instructors say rather than being in a constant state
of terror.
If she is in a constant state of terror during a certified state rider
training program that utilizes the MSF curriculum and riding coaches,
then either she does not have the personality that you described
earlier, or the riding coaches are not doing their job properly. No
amateur preparation is required for successful and enjoyable
completion of a certified state rider training program that utilizes
the MSF curriculum and riding coaches, as long as the coaches follow
the curriculum and adhere to their training and professional
standards.
I don't claim to be as effective as the MSF for what it does. It will take
me about 4 times as long to teach her 2/3 of the skills ... but it won't be
threatening.
No student in a certified state rider training program that utilizes
the MSF curriculum and riding coaches should find the class
threatening. If they do, it is because the coaches are either
deviating from the curriculum, or deviating from their training, or
failing to adhere own professional standards.
And I've found that a lot of the coaching in the MSF course was lacking.
I have not. I have observed a wide range of coaching acumen among the
hundreds of coaches I coached with over the years, some better than
others, some extremely talented and some just barely scraping by.
But I have not seen a lot of coaching that was lacking in certified
state rider training programs that utilize the MSF curriculum.
They didn't give a lot of coaching in the box exercises except to emphasize
staying constantly under power.
If you were a certified instructor, you would understand both that
they should not be giving a lot of coaching in the box exercises, as
well as WHY they should not. As an amateur coach, why don't you
describe your opinion of why a lot of coaching should be given in the
box exercises, and what that coaching would be, and how and why it
would benefit the students in the exercises?
I can explain why that is an effective
technique, and show her other control techniques in more detail.
I would be interested in hearing exatly how you plan to do that.
There were a lot of other defects in the coaching and instruction as well.
I'm a little better at it.
In that case, perhaps you might consider performing a public service
and take the MSF Coaching preparation course, become an MSF-certified
RiderCoach, and gfo to work for your local state certified rider
training program, both to improve the level of the coaching that is
given there, and to give something back to the sport that provides you
with so much pleasure and joy.
Post by Datesfat ChicksPerhaps your neighbor deserves that chance.
a)My neighbor deserves the chance to take a break any time she wants and
chat and enjoy the sunshine, rather than being stuck with a herd in the sun.
b)My neighbor deserves the chance to obtain competent coaching and competent
1)Why countersteering is taught explicitly (rather than just relying on a
person's bicycle skills).
2)Why certain techniques work in box exercises and certain techniques don't
and additional techniques to try.
3)Why it is important to keep your head up and look where you intend to go
(in most cases).
4)And so on.
c)My neighbor deserves the chance to not do exercises that she isn't
immediately comfortable with until she is comfortable with them.
d)My neighbor deserves the chance to go outside the lines of a box or lock a
rear wheel without the instructor yelling and without feeling intimidated
because other students seem to be doing it better.
My question to you, then, is simple. Why on earth would you allow
your neighbor to take a class that utilizes the MSF curriculum and MSF-
certified Rider Coaches, when you can do such a much better job, and
the chances of her being threatened, intimidated, yelled at,
uncomfortable, and incompetently coached and taught?
Sounds like you are not being a very good neighbor, at all.
In my opinion.