OT - Does the military industrial complex and the intelligence industrial complex benefit us?

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised. Unfortunately they also keep secrets.
I am aware of certain technologies not available to the consumer. Weather control. Miniature cameras implanted on the body that sees what you are seeing. And more.
I guess eventually these technologies will become available to the consumer.

The MIC and the IIC do benefit us in that they help make our nations and the world more secure.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Who benefits?"

Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"

Quadibloc

2019-06-02 05:52:41 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
The MIC and the IIC do benefit us in that they help make our nations and the world more secure.

Exactly. Of course they're bad things, costing the taxpayer a fortune, and leading
to concentrations of power and wealth.

Their only excuse for existing is that we need them to avoid being enslaved by
large and powerful tyrannies. Necessary evils don't stop being evil because
they're necessary... and they don't stop being necessary because they're evil.

John Savard

a***@gmail.com

2019-06-02 15:25:45 UTC

Post by Quadibloc

Post by a***@gmail.com
The MIC and the IIC do benefit us in that they help make our nations and the world more secure.

Exactly. Of course they're bad things, costing the taxpayer a fortune, and leading
to concentrations of power and wealth.
Their only excuse for existing is that we need them to avoid being enslaved by
large and powerful tyrannies. Necessary evils don't stop being evil because
they're necessary... and they don't stop being necessary because they're evil.

It's a dangerous world out there, and someone's got to do the dirty job of keeping us safe.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Man is by nature a political animal"

Post by Quadibloc
John Savard

a425couple

2019-06-02 16:54:33 UTC

The MIC and the IIC do benefit us in that they help make our nations and the world more secure.
"Who benefits?" > Abhinav Lal Writer & Investor

You asked:
Does the military industrial complex and the intelligence industrial
complex benefit us?

In theory yes. But way too often, they do a great breakthrough,
(say in weaponry) only to fumble it away to enemies.
And then it costs us more than it helped us.

for example:

#1
John Anthony Walker - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker
John Anthony Walker Jr. (July 28, 1937 – August 28, 2014) was a United
States Navy chief .... It was through Walker that the Soviets became
aware that the U.S. Navy was able to track the location of ... CIA
historian H. Keith Melton states on the show Top Secrets of the CIA,
which aired on the Military Channel, among other ...

#2 or real recent one

NSA's EternalBlue Exploit Cripples US City Infrastructures With Ease ...
https://nulltx.com/nsas-eternalblue-exploit-cripples-us-city-infrastructures-with-ease/
May 26, 2019 - Not too many people should be surprised to learn the
EternalBlue hacking exploit is still making the rounds. After becoming a
successful tool to ...

Hackers hit vulnerable cities like Baltimore with ... - USA Today
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/.../hackers...cities.../1211611001/
May 24, 2019 - Baltimore, still adjusting to new leadership after its
mayor's forced resignation, is the latest city to get hit by a cyberattack.

In Baltimore and Beyond, a Stolen N.S.A. Tool Wreaks Havoc - The ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/25/us/nsa-hacking-tool-baltimore.html
May 25, 2019 - American cities are being hijacked with an N.S.A.
cyberweapon that has ... Now the tool is hitting the United States where
it is most vulnerable, ... On May 7, city workers in Baltimore had their
computers frozen by hackers.
Missing: cripple ‎| ‎Must include: ‎cripple

J. Clarke

2019-06-02 06:37:35 UTC

Right, you're "aware" of them. No doubt such cameras were implanted
in you during torture.

You've managing to do something quite difficult--you're making Quadi
look sane.

m***@sky.com

2019-06-02 08:13:17 UTC

Heinlein had one of his characters benefit by commercializing military technology, but these days there is so much money going into commercial research, especially in anything to do with computers, that it is much more common to militarize commercial technology. In fact, military systems which require Tempest protection or have to survive vibration and other harsh conditions often end up using electronics which is much more expensive and a couple of years out of date. And that's ignoring the delay intrinsic to government procurement organizations. Plus researchers in military or related organizations are typically researchers that didn't quite make the cut to get academic tenure, and they don't have access to free labor from PhD students.

o***@gmail.com

2019-06-07 21:57:34 UTC

.....researchers in military or related organizations are typically researchers that didn't quite make the cut to get academic tenure, and they don't have access to free labor from PhD students.

You really need to get out more.

Johnny1A

2019-06-03 15:59:19 UTC

It you're 'aware' of serious, _real_ weather control tech (not just cloud seeding and the marginal effects of windmills), then you're well ahead of the military/industrial complex, in America or any other polity. No such tech exists.

I can't _prove_ that the current state of the art doesn't allow implanted secret cameras to observe what the subject sees. It's certainly possible in principle. But I know where I'd lay my money if I were placing a bet, and that's that it isn't currently practical.

As for whether it's beneficial...that's almost a meaningless question. They are _necessary_, they benefit a state by enabling it to exist, but they are expensive and dangerous, too. The enormous power they accumulate can easily be turned against the people they are supposed to protect. But not having them is also dangerous.

The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without one.

a***@gmail.com

2019-06-04 01:45:48 UTC

It you're 'aware' of serious, _real_ weather control tech (not just cloud seeding and the marginal effects of windmills), then you're well ahead of the military/industrial complex, in America or any other polity. No such tech exists.
I can't _prove_ that the current state of the art doesn't allow implanted secret cameras to observe what the subject sees. It's certainly possible in principle. But I know where I'd lay my money if I were placing a bet, and that's that it isn't currently practical.
As for whether it's beneficial...that's almost a meaningless question. They are _necessary_, they benefit a state by enabling it to exist, but they are expensive and dangerous, too. The enormous power they accumulate can easily be turned against the people they are supposed to protect. But not having them is also dangerous.
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without one.

I have no evidence of these technologies except for the information in my head. If there is a reliable and non harmful way to extract the information in my head, we can discuss it. Until then such truths are best not discussed as fact, but discussed in fiction, including SF.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"Fact is stranger than fiction"

o***@gmail.com

2019-06-07 21:59:15 UTC

It you're 'aware' of serious, _real_ weather control tech (not just cloud seeding and the marginal effects of windmills), then you're well ahead of the military/industrial complex, in America or any other polity. No such tech exists.
I can't _prove_ that the current state of the art doesn't allow implanted secret cameras to observe what the subject sees. It's certainly possible in principle. But I know where I'd lay my money if I were placing a bet, and that's that it isn't currently practical.
As for whether it's beneficial...that's almost a meaningless question. They are _necessary_, they benefit a state by enabling it to exist, but they are expensive and dangerous, too. The enormous power they accumulate can easily be turned against the people they are supposed to protect. But not having them is also dangerous.
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without one.

I have no evidence of these technologies except for the information in my head. If there is a reliable and non harmful way to extract the information in my head, we can discuss it. Until then such truths are best not discussed as fact, but discussed in fiction, including SF.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"Fact is stranger than fiction"

......are you REALLY Alex Jones ?

Quadibloc

2019-06-14 12:35:50 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
I have no evidence of these technologies except for the information in my head.
If there is a reliable and non harmful way to extract the information in my
head, we can discuss it.

Usually, the information in people's heads is communicated by them talking.
However, I see you're not talking about communicating here, but proof. So you are
saying you have personally experienced things you can't reasonably expect us to
believe.

John Savard

Juho Julkunen

2019-06-04 11:34:12 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised. Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without one.

You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

--
Juho Julkunen

J. Clarke

2019-06-05 01:55:35 UTC

On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised. Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Kevrob

2019-06-05 14:53:42 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised. Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.

Neutrals may have militaries, of course.

Kevin R
a.a #2310

m***@sky.com

2019-06-05 15:08:19 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised. Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

I don't have independent confirmation of the truth of the story, or the sanity of the web sites where you can find it told, but there is a story that in the early days of the American colonies, Quakers found pacificism much more practical if they had a buffer of Scots-Irish between themselves and any remaining native americans - see e.g. https://scotsirish.blogspot.com/2017/01/scots-irish-quaker-proprietors.html

At the time we were apprehensive of the Northern Indians…. I therefore thought it might be provident to plant a settlement of such men as those who formerly had so bravely defended Londonderry and Enniskillen as a frontier against any disturbance.

Peter Trei

2019-06-05 16:46:14 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised. Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

Naturally, there's a wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

They're all tiny (under 200,000 pop), and most are islands. All have some
kind of defense arrangement with a larger country.

pt

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2019-06-05 17:01:14 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised.

Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

Post by Johnny1A
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's

immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce
autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without
one.

Post by Juho Julkunen
You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
They're all tiny (under 200,000 pop), and most are islands. All have some
kind of defense arrangement with a larger country.
pt

That didn't quite sound right to me at least with respect to Costa Rica.
Looking, I see it has a population (per wp) of 4.8 million. That's certainly
not huge, but it's not tiny either.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Peter Trei

2019-06-05 17:12:45 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised.

Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

Post by Johnny1A
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's

immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce
autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without
one.

Post by Juho Julkunen
You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
They're all tiny (under 200,000 pop), and most are islands. All have some
kind of defense arrangement with a larger country.
pt

That didn't quite sound right to me at least with respect to Costa Rica.
Looking, I see it has a population (per wp) of 4.8 million. That's certainly
not huge, but it's not tiny either.

There are two lists in the article.

The first, 'Countries with no official military forces' is as I described.

The second, 'Countries with no standing army, but having limited military
forces' is the one with Costa Rica.

pt

pt

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2019-06-05 17:32:53 UTC

Post by Peter Trei

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised.

Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

Post by Johnny1A
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's

immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce
autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without
one.

Post by Juho Julkunen
You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
They're all tiny (under 200,000 pop), and most are islands. All have some
kind of defense arrangement with a larger country.
pt

That didn't quite sound right to me at least with respect to Costa Rica.
Looking, I see it has a population (per wp) of 4.8 million. That's certainly
not huge, but it's not tiny either.

There are two lists in the article.
The first, 'Countries with no official military forces' is as I described.
The second, 'Countries with no standing army, but having limited military
forces' is the one with Costa Rica.
pt
pt

Ah, OK.

Hey, Belize has an an army!

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

David DeLaney

2019-06-06 15:36:19 UTC

Post by Peter Trei
There are two lists in the article.
The first, 'Countries with no official military forces' is as I described.
The second, 'Countries with no standing army, but having limited military
forces' is the one with Costa Rica.

Ah, OK.
Hey, Belize has an an army!

How many divisions can the Pope field?

Dave, "and who knows -- maybe Monaco? We'll try to stay / serene and calm"

--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Kevrob

2019-06-06 16:53:37 UTC

Post by David DeLaney

Ah, OK.
Hey, Belize has an an army!

How many divisions can the Pope field?

He has the Swiss Guard. By an 1874 amendment to the confederation's
constitution, Swiss citizens can't be foreign mercenaries any longer,
with this one exception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries#Modern_times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Swiss_Guard

Kevin R

Peter Trei

2019-06-06 18:02:20 UTC

Post by David DeLaney

Ah, OK.
Hey, Belize has an an army!

How many divisions can the Pope field?

It looks like in the past, one or two. He used to be able to put up a fight.
From Wikipedia:

"Historically the Papal States maintained military forces composed of volunteers
and mercenaries. Between 1860 and 1870 the Papal Army (Esercito Pontificio in
Italian) comprised two regiments of locally recruited Italian infantry, two
Swiss regiments and a battalion of Irish volunteers, plus artillery and
dragoons.[42] In 1861 an international Catholic volunteer corps, called Papal
Zouaves after a kind of French colonial native Algerian infantry, and imitating
their uniform type, was created. Predominantly made up of Dutch, French and
Belgian volunteers, this corps saw service against Garibaldi's Redshirts,
Italian patriots, and finally the forces of the newly united Italy."

The Zouaves were up to 4500 strong, and acquitted themselves well at the Battle
of Mentana.

pt

P. Taine

2019-06-06 23:46:35 UTC

Post by Peter Trei

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised.

Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

Post by Johnny1A
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's

immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce
autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without
one.

Post by Juho Julkunen
You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
They're all tiny (under 200,000 pop), and most are islands. All have some
kind of defense arrangement with a larger country.
pt

That didn't quite sound right to me at least with respect to Costa Rica.
Looking, I see it has a population (per wp) of 4.8 million. That's certainly
not huge, but it's not tiny either.

There are two lists in the article.
The first, 'Countries with no official military forces' is as I described.
The second, 'Countries with no standing army, but having limited military
forces' is the one with Costa Rica.
pt
pt

Ah, OK.
Hey, Belize has an an army!

Understandable. When we drove across the boarder (in 1976) the sign on one
side read "Belize for Balizians", and on the other "Balise est Guatamala". When
a much larger country (albeit rather small) claims you, you too would probably
form an army!

P. Taine

Kevrob

2019-06-07 17:27:59 UTC

Post by P. Taine

Post by Peter Trei

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 14:34:12 +0300, Juho Julkunen

Post by a***@gmail.com
Maybe. They develop technology which can be commercialised.

Unfortunately they also keep secrets.

Post by Johnny1A
The military/industrial complex can be likened to the body's

immune system, which is also necessary but which can also produce
autoimmune reactions if it goes wrong. But you won't live long without
one.

Post by Juho Julkunen
You know, there are states that manage to exist without a military
industrial complex. There are even states that manage to exist without
a military.

Generally by allying themselves with another state that has an
effective military.

Or, by a studied neutrality, especially one that serves the
interests of two or more large, opposed powers or blocs.
Neutrals may have militaries, of course.
Kevin R
a.a #2310

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
They're all tiny (under 200,000 pop), and most are islands. All have some
kind of defense arrangement with a larger country.
pt

That didn't quite sound right to me at least with respect to Costa Rica.
Looking, I see it has a population (per wp) of 4.8 million. That's certainly
not huge, but it's not tiny either.

There are two lists in the article.
The first, 'Countries with no official military forces' is as I described.
The second, 'Countries with no standing army, but having limited military
forces' is the one with Costa Rica.
pt
pt

Ah, OK.
Hey, Belize has an an army!

The Guatamalans would probably never try anything, as long as the
former British Honduras and the UK have a training agreement.

https://www.sanpedrosun.com/government/2018/09/26/uk-armed-forces-to-continue-training-in-belize-revised-status-of-forces-agreement-signed/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Honduras

Kevin R

Lynn McGuire

2019-06-12 19:21:01 UTC

On 6/5/2019 12:32 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
...>> There are two lists in the article.

Post by Peter Trei
The first, 'Countries with no official military forces' is as I described.
The second, 'Countries with no standing army, but having limited military
forces' is the one with Costa Rica.
pt
pt

Ah, OK.
Hey, Belize has an an army!

I went fishing with my dad in Belize in 1989. When we got off the Taca
Airlines 737 gen zero in Belize City, we were greeted by British Royal
Paratroopers. There were 4 ? 6 ? Harrier jets in separate hardened
bunkers along the runway with the pilots sitting in their planes ready
to take off. There was a dual rotor helicopter hovering about 200 ft
off the ground at one end of the runway with four door gunners hanging
out on their straps. All in all, a very unnerving place.

Then we went through customs where the dude held up our fishing rods and
said, "what are these ?". We said, "those are fishing rods". He
repeated himself about 4 or 5 times at which point our guide came
rushing up and said "these are the men that I was telling you about".
The customs guy immediately said we could go. He was waiting on a bribe
from us and did not realize that he had it already.

On the 737 gen zero trip back to Miami, the guy sitting next to me was
smoking a very thick cuban cigar. And a lady two rows ahead had a
chicken in cage. I started calling the airline Taco Airlines then.

Lynn

Quadibloc

2019-06-14 12:40:29 UTC

Post by Lynn McGuire
Then we went through customs where the dude held up our fishing rods and
said, "what are these ?". We said, "those are fishing rods". He
repeated himself about 4 or 5 times at which point our guide came
rushing up and said "these are the men that I was telling you about".
The customs guy immediately said we could go. He was waiting on a bribe
from us and did not realize that he had it already.

What, the customs inspector didn't get immediately whisked off to a mental
institution, or a maximum-security prison? Clearly, until this is corrected, I
cannot consider visiting Belize.

John Savard

Juho Julkunen

2019-06-14 13:19:42 UTC

Post by Quadibloc

What, the customs inspector didn't get immediately whisked off to a mental
institution, or a maximum-security prison? Clearly, until this is corrected, I
cannot consider visiting Belize.

I'm sure you can arrange that with the right bribe.

--
Juho Julkunen

m***@sky.com

2019-06-10 19:30:45 UTC