Discussion:
Jesus never existed?
(too old to reply)
Religion is a Lie
2003-11-26 22:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc. The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD - it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed in
the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!

Christianity as we know it today stems primarily from the machinations
of the Roman Emperor Constantine early in the 4th cent AD. It was him
who ordered the bible to be compiled. All the property and sacred texts
of the numerous Christian sects that existed at the time was given to
the Catholic Church. Eusebius, a Catholic scholar, was commissioned to
produce 50 copies of the bible for distribution throughout the churches
of Constantinople, Constantine's capital. Constantine himself was NOT A
CHRISTIAN!

The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?

I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".

Newton's Cat <***@my-deja.com>
in Message-ID: <8p5vi2$ft$***@nnrp1.deja.com>
georgann
2003-11-26 22:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc.
georgann, Teflon/Bulova apologist wrote:

Oh grow up little boy.

Why does everyone think to be properly introduced to the alt.atheism
newsgroup they have to do this same shtick on Christians and Jesus Christ?

Don't you see how obvious you are? How desperate you look?

--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»

All your prophecy are belong to Christ!

(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
Blast Femur
2003-11-27 05:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc.
Oh grow up little boy.
Why does everyone think to be properly introduced to the alt.atheism
newsgroup they have to do this same shtick on Christians and Jesus Christ?
Because Christianity and Jesus Christ *are* just that. A schtick.
Post by georgann
Don't you see how obvious you are? How desperate you look?
Et tu, Brute.
--
Blast Femur

______________

"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing
lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So
primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning bushes
talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'"

-Paul Provenza
Budikka
2003-11-30 07:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc.
Oh grow up little boy.
Why does everyone think to be properly introduced to the alt.atheism
newsgroup they have to do this same shtick on Christians and Jesus Christ?
Don't you see how obvious you are? How desperate you look?
Yet another theist who thinks that an unsupported dismissal will work
when a real supported and referenced refutation is needed. Of course,
there cannot be such a refutation when the subject at hand is blind
belief in an ancient myth. That's why we never get one, and why the
theist expects us to take their word on the same clueless blind faith
she so desperately indulges herself in.

Don't you see how obvious you are? How desperate you look?

Budikka
georgann
2003-12-01 11:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Of course,
there cannot be such a refutation when the subject at hand is blind
belief in an ancient myth. That's why we never get one, and why the
theist expects us to take their word on the same clueless blind faith
she so desperately indulges herself in.
georgann, Teflon/Bulova apologist wrote:

There is none so blind as one who WILL not see.

--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»

All your prophecy are belong to Christ!

(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
Jos Flachs
2003-12-02 00:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Of course,
there cannot be such a refutation when the subject at hand is blind
belief in an ancient myth. That's why we never get one, and why the
theist expects us to take their word on the same clueless blind faith
she so desperately indulges herself in.
There is none so blind as one who WILL not see.
Does your guide dog do the typing, sweetie?
Budikka
2003-12-04 01:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Of course,
there cannot be such a refutation when the subject at hand is blind
belief in an ancient myth. That's why we never get one, and why the
theist expects us to take their word on the same clueless blind faith
she so desperately indulges herself in.
There is none so blind as one who WILL not see.
Well now you've described you perfectly. If you have an actual *case*
to make for why *I* should swallow *your* delusions, please make it,
otherwise you're just another Flapper for Jesus (TM)

Budikka
Roger Pearse
2003-12-05 16:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budikka
Post by georgann
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Of course,
there cannot be such a refutation when the subject at hand is blind
belief in an ancient myth. That's why we never get one, and why the
theist expects us to take their word on the same clueless blind faith
she so desperately indulges herself in.
There is none so blind as one who WILL not see.
Well now you've described you perfectly. If you have an actual *case*
to make for why *I* should swallow *your* delusions, please make it,
otherwise you're just another Flapper for Jesus (TM)
I'm not sure why we should respect a position which amounts to 'prove
something to me.' The stupidest moron on the planet could adopt that
position. Surely everyone is responsible for their own education?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Ineedmoney
2003-12-05 17:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by georgann
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Of course,
there cannot be such a refutation when the subject at hand is blind
belief in an ancient myth. That's why we never get one, and why the
theist expects us to take their word on the same clueless blind faith
she so desperately indulges herself in.
There is none so blind as one who WILL not see.
Well now you've described you perfectly. If you have an actual *case*
to make for why *I* should swallow *your* delusions, please make it,
otherwise you're just another Flapper for Jesus (TM)
I'm not sure why we should respect a position which amounts to 'prove
something to me.' The stupidest moron on the planet could adopt that
position. Surely everyone is responsible for their own education?
Well why should we believe this ridiculous claim of yours when you dont give
us any reason to?

Ed
Budikka
2003-12-06 12:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
I'm not sure why we should respect a position which amounts to 'prove
something to me.' The stupidest moron on the planet could adopt that
position. Surely everyone is responsible for their own education?
Indeed, and that's why the proposition that there ever was a Jesus is
the one which needs to be proven, since there is no evidence whatsever
for it.

It is *not* the job of those who do not believe to prove the subject
of their disbelief. The very reason we don't believe is because there
*is no foundation* for such a belief. What could be more moronic than
trying to prove something you do not believe because there is no
evidence to support it?

You seem to have adopted an additional blind faith belief that I have
never investigated the topic. False! The reason I do not believe is
precisely because I *have* investigated the topic and found zero
substance to it.

Now here comes Georgann, desperately wanting everyone to take her
blind belief the same ways he does - on faith, and chiding those of us
who do not, yet she offers no light whatsoever to induce us to follow
her into her darkness. Since the extant evidence has been adequately
investigated and found wanting, I ask her to provide sufficient
evidence and she cannot, thereby proving my case for me.

History is replete with examples of people who have gone wildly astray
following unsupported claims. This is why the default position is
that those making these claims (in this example, the position that
there was a Jesus) are responsible for demonstrating the veracity of
them, otherwise, they are in no position whatsoever to chide those who
do not believe their wild flights of fancy.

Budikka

Jon Davis
2003-11-26 23:31:10 UTC
Permalink
*plonk* wheeee!!
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc. The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD - it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed in
the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!
Christianity as we know it today stems primarily from the machinations
of the Roman Emperor Constantine early in the 4th cent AD. It was him
who ordered the bible to be compiled. All the property and sacred texts
of the numerous Christian sects that existed at the time was given to
the Catholic Church. Eusebius, a Catholic scholar, was commissioned to
produce 50 copies of the bible for distribution throughout the churches
of Constantinople, Constantine's capital. Constantine himself was NOT A
CHRISTIAN!
The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?
I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".
Newton Joseph
2003-11-27 00:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Was Jesus a real person? Read;

Ancient Myth and Modern Life by Gerald A. Larue

The Christ Myth by Nicholas Carter

Belief and Make Believe by G.A.Wells

Did Jesus Exist? By G.A. Wells

The Jesus Idea by Arnold M. Rothstein

The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty

Jesus Outside the Bible by. Joseph Hoffman

Jesus in History and Myth by Joseph Hoffman and Gerald A. Larue

What's in a Name by G.A. Wells

Who was Jesus? G.A. Wells

The Myth of the Resurrection by Joseph McCabe

Pagan Christs by J.M. Robertson

The Historical Evidence for Jesus by G.A. Wells

They all generally concur with one another. Now, my point is
that educated and intelligent priests are more or less familiar with these
books and yet they believe. Which proves to me that their life long
conditioning makes them mentally disturbed to believe that these mythical
tales are true.

Newton
JTEM
2003-11-27 01:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newton Joseph
Was Jesus a real person?
Who cares? Honestly.
Roger Pearse
2003-11-27 16:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newton Joseph
Was Jesus a real person? Read;
Ancient Myth and Modern Life by Gerald A. Larue
The Christ Myth by Nicholas Carter
Belief and Make Believe by G.A.Wells
Did Jesus Exist? By G.A. Wells
The Jesus Idea by Arnold M. Rothstein
The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty
Jesus Outside the Bible by. Joseph Hoffman
Jesus in History and Myth by Joseph Hoffman and Gerald A. Larue
What's in a Name by G.A. Wells
Who was Jesus? G.A. Wells
The Myth of the Resurrection by Joseph McCabe
Pagan Christs by J.M. Robertson
The Historical Evidence for Jesus by G.A. Wells
They all generally concur with one another.
A certain repetition of names, there! No wonder Mr. Wells agrees with
other books by Mr. Wells. Mind you, I'm not sure why the religious
maunderings of a retired professor of German should be of interest to
anyone.
Post by Newton Joseph
Now, my point isthat educated and intelligent priests are more or less
familiar with these books and yet they believe. Which proves to me that their
life long conditioning makes them mentally disturbed to believe that these
mythical tales are true.
I don't think anyone outside a handful of cranks bothers with these
books, or the other atheist pamphlets like them. The question you
need to ask is not why 'priests' ignore them, but why educated people
of all classes and religions ignore them, and in particular scholars
ignore them.

The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).

Whether he was the Son of God is another question, which is treated at
length with much more disagreement, or, in some cases, envy. Don't
try feeding the 5000 at home, folks.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Budikka
2003-11-30 07:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. if you have evidence to the contrary, it will be a
revelation to the entire world and will make you very rich. Please do
post it.

See:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.shtml
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html
Post by Roger Pearse
Whether he was the Son of God is another question, which is treated at
length with much more disagreement, or, in some cases, envy. Don't
try feeding the 5000 at home, folks.
In order for him to be a son of god he would first have to exist (see
above) and second, there would have to be a god from whom he
descended. Again, there is zero evidence that there are any gods in
existence.

Budikka
Roger Pearse
2003-12-01 11:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Budikka
2003-12-04 01:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
I would find it a heck of a lot easier to buy your blind beliefs if
you could actually make a *case* for them instead of this endless
flapping your mouth and having not a thing of value come out of it.
Make your case. You want to formally debate this purported existence
you claim for the Jesus of the gospels, name your rules and the
Internet location you want to thrash this out, post your opening
argument and email same to me. Otherwise, quit flapping and get a
clue.

Budikka
Roger Pearse
2003-12-04 13:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.
I would find it a heck of a lot easier to buy your blind beliefs if
you could actually make a *case* for them instead of this endless
flapping your mouth and having not a thing of value come out of it.
Make your case. You want to formally debate this purported existence
you claim for the Jesus of the gospels,
No I don't, actually. Sit in your ghetto. No-one is listening. The
rest of us have moved on.

The real losers sit around with their thumbs up their backsides,
proclaiming a demand that other people educate them, and crowing when
people won't. Most people can recognise a crank with a closed mind,
you know! Well, that's the way to stay stupid. Open your mind, and
think for yourself.
Post by Budikka
name your rules and the
Internet location you want to thrash this out, post your opening
argument and email same to me. Otherwise, quit flapping and get a
clue.
Get a life, loser.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Vera Six
2003-12-04 19:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Would you please stop cross-posting?

Thanks in advance.

V.S.

"Roger Pearse" <***@yahoo.co.uk>
t***@yahoo.dk
2003-12-04 23:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.
I would find it a heck of a lot easier to buy your blind beliefs if
you could actually make a *case* for them instead of this endless
flapping your mouth and having not a thing of value come out of it.
Make your case. You want to formally debate this purported existence
you claim for the Jesus of the gospels,
No I don't, actually. Sit in your ghetto. No-one is listening. The
rest of us have moved on.
What incredible arrogance! I wonder who you think "the rest of us"
are.



snip



None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Roger Pearse
2003-12-05 10:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.
I would find it a heck of a lot easier to buy your blind beliefs if
you could actually make a *case* for them instead of this endless
flapping your mouth and having not a thing of value come out of it.
Make your case. You want to formally debate this purported existence
you claim for the Jesus of the gospels,
No I don't, actually. Sit in your ghetto. No-one is listening. The
rest of us have moved on.
What incredible arrogance! I wonder who you think "the rest of us"
are.
Did you not know that 99.9999% of the world's population does not share your views?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Li Mu Bai
2003-12-05 10:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Did you not know that 99.9999% of the world's population does not
share
Post by Roger Pearse
your views?
Fallacy noted.
angelicusrex
2003-12-06 05:07:47 UTC
Permalink
You know, abusing someone's faith or belief system, is not the same as
disabusing a child's belief in jolly old elves that come down chimneys.

A child can go to any library and discover in a very few unassailable
records that Santa Claus was made up. They can track down the myths and they
can see the history and development of Christmas and Santa. Every year they
produce TV shows on the origins of Santa and Christmas. We all still cherish
the traditions, even though they are based on a series of myths.

Some people seem to believe they can do the same thing with Jesus. But
whereas no one would argue with you about Santa Claus not existing, they
seem to be more than willing to argue the existence of Jesus. That is
because in essence, there is still some question about his existence, what
he did while he was here and how much of an impact his existence had on the
planet and its history. There seems to also be a lot of people who claim to
have seen, spoken to or experienced Jesus. Very few if any will swear to
having experienced Santa.

Saint Nicholas, because he was a gregarious and giving man, and a Christian
saint, left a legacy about giving and receiving as Jesus had taught that
left a mark on people's minds, so that they mythologized him. This proves
that a real person can exist, have an effect on everyone around him and
become mythologized easily, taking on supernatural characteristics. Does
Santa Claus exist? Yes. In the form of an on-going comforting myth for kids.
And as a mythical personage many of us imitate and relate to during this
season. He lives on in a way in all who have a merry heart and a giving
spirit. Was he a real person? Yes. He was. Whom did he follow? Jesus. Was
Jesus real? Yes, in fact several of them existed. Several were crucified.
Several claimed to be saviors of their people. And now we know of one who
may be representative of a type of person from the early days of the Roman
Occupation of Judea. Now he is mythical and has taken on supernatural
characteristics. And again, he lives on in the hearts of good natured, kind
and just men and women who want to help others.

So what do atheists seem to want to do? Abuse those believers and smack them
down and berate them for believing in "myths."

Well, all humans believe in one myth or another. "There is no God" is just
as much myth as "Jesus Saves." The There is no God myth comes directly from
those old worshipers of God who rejected the Church and its trappings, those
who were called heretics. Eventually the Church abused them so much, they
dropped all belief in God as a kind of striking back at the Status Quo, a
way to difference oneself and give some payback to those who still try to
abuse them. But in another way, it is also the seeking of abuse. A way of
telling others that they are willing targets of abuse and willing to stand
up for their cause. It is a kind of heroism of anti-belief that is becoming
mythic as we speak.

That's how humans are. They aren't all rational all the time. They believe
in myths. They strike out at injustice or sometimes they strike with
injustice and intolerance and hate in the name of what was once considered
Good.

Saint
JTEM
2003-12-06 06:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
You know, abusing someone's faith or belief system,
You're trolling alt.atheism.

Get a life.
Jos Flachs
2003-12-06 10:38:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:07:47 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
You know, abusing someone's faith or belief system, is not the same as
disabusing a child's belief in jolly old elves that come down chimneys.
Care to explain what is different?
Post by angelicusrex
A child can go to any library and discover in a very few unassailable
records that Santa Claus was made up. They can track down the myths and they
can see the history and development of Christmas and Santa. Every year they
produce TV shows on the origins of Santa and Christmas. We all still cherish
the traditions, even though they are based on a series of myths.
True enough.
Post by angelicusrex
Some people seem to believe they can do the same thing with Jesus. But
whereas no one would argue with you about Santa Claus not existing, they
seem to be more than willing to argue the existence of Jesus.
Not only do the seem to believe that... they actually do.
Post by angelicusrex
That is
because in essence, there is still some question about his existence, what
Not 'still some question', completely unproven outside the bible.
Post by angelicusrex
he did while he was here and how much of an impact his existence had on the
planet and its history.
Jesus had not impact at all. Not more than Santa has. The people that
made up the stories changed and impacted history.
Post by angelicusrex
There seems to also be a lot of people who claim to
have seen, spoken to or experienced Jesus. Very few if any will swear to
having experienced Santa.
Start an official cult to worship Santa, and I assure you people will
claim to meet him. After all, people claim to have seen a cholesterol
rich dead rock artist shopping in 7-11...
Post by angelicusrex
Saint Nicholas, because he was a gregarious and giving man, and a Christian
All you can do is point to St. Nicolaas (who's birthday was celebrated
last night in Belgium and Holland). Claiming that he was gregarious
and giving is nothing but hearsay.
Post by angelicusrex
saint, left a legacy about giving and receiving as Jesus had taught that
left a mark on people's minds, so that they mythologized him. This proves
that a real person can exist, have an effect on everyone around him and
become mythologized easily, taking on supernatural characteristics. Does
Like St. Christoffel?
Post by angelicusrex
Santa Claus exist? Yes. In the form of an on-going comforting myth for kids.
Just like jesus.
Post by angelicusrex
And as a mythical personage many of us imitate and relate to during this
season. He lives on in a way in all who have a merry heart and a giving
spirit. Was he a real person? Yes.
Santa? No. Jesus? Neither.
Post by angelicusrex
He was. Whom did he follow? Jesus.
The present day Santa more likely follows Coca Cola. They created him.
Post by angelicusrex
Was Jesus real? Yes, in fact several of them existed.
True. One of them is doing my garden right now. C'mon Jesus! Mow the
grass!!!!
Post by angelicusrex
Several were crucified.
Proof?
Post by angelicusrex
Several claimed to be saviors of their people. And now we know of one who
may be representative of a type of person from the early days of the Roman
Occupation of Judea.
Now now, "O"ccupation... that is bit harsh. Occupation in the middle
of a sentence is written in undercast, not with a capital.
Civilisation is likely a better word.
Post by angelicusrex
Now he is mythical and has taken on supernatural
characteristics.
What is new? He always had.
Post by angelicusrex
And again, he lives on in the hearts of good natured, kind
and just men and women who want to help others.
Santa? Jesus?
Post by angelicusrex
So what do atheists seem to want to do? Abuse those believers and smack them
down and berate them for believing in "myths."
Not at all. Feel free to worship shit for all I care. Only don't claim
any special benefits. Like printing 'in shit we believe' on your
currency.
Post by angelicusrex
Well, all humans believe in one myth or another.
Speak for yoursefl, bub.
Post by angelicusrex
"There is no God" is just as much myth as "Jesus Saves."
If you can proof your gods exist, quite so. Otherwise: no.
Post by angelicusrex
The There is no God myth comes directly from
those old worshipers of God who rejected the Church and its trappings, those
who were called heretics.
Nonsense. Heretics believe. Atheists do not. Even worse: most heretics
believed in exactly the same gods as you do. Only they worshipped them
differently. Good enough reason to torture them slowly to death, if
one is a xtian.
Post by angelicusrex
Eventually the Church abused them so much, they
dropped all belief in God as a kind of striking back at the Status Quo, a
Proof?
Post by angelicusrex
way to difference oneself and give some payback to those who still try to
abuse them. But in another way, it is also the seeking of abuse. A way of
telling others that they are willing targets of abuse and willing to stand
up for their cause. It is a kind of heroism of anti-belief that is becoming
mythic as we speak.
Proof?
Jos Flachs
2003-12-05 12:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.
I would find it a heck of a lot easier to buy your blind beliefs if
you could actually make a *case* for them instead of this endless
flapping your mouth and having not a thing of value come out of it.
Make your case. You want to formally debate this purported existence
you claim for the Jesus of the gospels,
No I don't, actually. Sit in your ghetto. No-one is listening. The
rest of us have moved on.
What incredible arrogance! I wonder who you think "the rest of us"
are.
Did you not know that 99.9999% of the world's population does not share your views?
Did you know that your figure is somewhat overly optimistic? Even from
a fundy point of view?
Post by Roger Pearse
All the best,
Jos
t***@yahoo.dk
2003-12-05 20:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Budikka
Post by Roger Pearse
The answer, btw, is that they are pieces of special pleading, one and
all. No sensible person doubts that some guy with a beard and a towel
on his head was doing the rounds on a soapbox in 30AD. That's how
every ideological movement starts. (The towel is optional; the beard
seems mandatory).
There is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was any Jesus to my
knowledge. [etc]
Try being a bit more open-minded. Reiterating this silly position
does not constitute any form of argument, to normal people.
I would find it a heck of a lot easier to buy your blind beliefs if
you could actually make a *case* for them instead of this endless
flapping your mouth and having not a thing of value come out of it.
Make your case. You want to formally debate this purported existence
you claim for the Jesus of the gospels,
No I don't, actually. Sit in your ghetto. No-one is listening. The
rest of us have moved on.
What incredible arrogance! I wonder who you think "the rest of us"
are.
Did you not know that 99.9999% of the world's population does not share your views?
Unlike you I do not imagine that they do.


None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
angelicusrex
2003-11-27 03:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc.
Can you prove this? There is a lot of archaelogical evidence that
Christianity was well established in the 1st Century A.D. Writers mention
them, records of Rome mention them, there are artifacts that are Christian.
Post by Religion is a Lie
The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD -
Pauline doctrine is not the only mention of Jesus.
Post by Religion is a Lie
it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed in
the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!
But there is evidence. As I said.
Post by Religion is a Lie
Christianity as we know it today stems primarily from the machinations
of the Roman Emperor Constantine early in the 4th cent AD. It was him
who ordered the bible to be compiled.
From gospels and letters extent and written in the 1st Century A.D. The
first Century is the year 1 to 100. Do you really think it was created in a
vacuum out of the whole cloth?
Post by Religion is a Lie
All the property and sacred texts
of the numerous Christian sects that existed at the time was given to
the Catholic Church. Eusebius, a Catholic scholar, was commissioned to
produce 50 copies of the bible for distribution throughout the churches
of Constantinople, Constantine's capital. Constantine himself was NOT A
CHRISTIAN!
Constantine was the Head of the Christian Church. That's why he was making
the Bishops find a common ground. They didn't. Not for some time afterwards.
Some still don't agree.
Post by Religion is a Lie
The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?
Jesus was a real person.
Post by Religion is a Lie
I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".
You seem to be deriding Catholicism, not Christianity. The Church of Jesus
was headed by his own brother, James and by his disciple Peter. Now, if
Jesus never existed, according to you, how could anything in the Gospels be
true? They would be complete fiction, as you said. Are you drunk or on
drugs?

Saint
Blast Femur
2003-11-27 06:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc.
Can you prove this? There is a lot of archaelogical evidence that
Christianity was well established in the 1st Century A.D. Writers
mention them, records of Rome mention them, there are artifacts that
are Christian.
Cites please. Prove this.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Religion is a Lie
The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD -
Pauline doctrine is not the only mention of Jesus.
Right, he is mentioned throughout the NT. But try to find him in the
real world...
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Religion is a Lie
it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed
in the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!
But there is evidence. As I said.
Once again, cites please. I cannot accept your assertion as is.

<snip>
--
Blast Femur

______________

"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing
lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So
primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning bushes
talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'"

-Paul Provenza
Christians Kill
2003-11-28 07:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?

-
Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no
longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent
allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to
make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place
that the churches in all these centuries have made it.
--Bertrand Russell
Dr. Jason Gastrich
2003-11-28 07:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of God.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
--
The Awesome, Saving Gospel of God
http://gospel.jcsm.org
Are you saved? Read the gospel and make sure!
Ron Baker
2003-11-28 14:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of God.
Interesting.

What evidence is Flavius Josephus?

What miracles have you done in His name?

Is every word in the bible literally true?
Don Kresch
2003-11-28 16:01:37 UTC
Permalink
In alt.atheism on Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:26:29 GMT, "Dr. Jason Gastrich"
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels.
Not evidence.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Christmas.
Not evidence.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Josephus.
Not evidence.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
No such thing.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
No such thing.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The inerrant Word of God.
No such thing.

Well, that about wraps up your supposed evidence.


Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.

"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
angelicusrex
2003-11-28 23:59:48 UTC
Permalink
"Don Kresch" <***@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message > >>> Jesus was
a real person.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels.
Not evidence.
More evidence than you have provided for your assertion.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Christmas.
Not evidence.
True. Christimas is evidence of nothing.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Josephus.
Not evidence.
Prove it. It is evidence, it is simply in dispute.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
Post by Don Kresch
Well, that about wraps up your supposed evidence.
It's evidence to him. It is disputed by you. But you brought nothing to the
dispute but opinion. So the debate rages.

Saint
Don Kresch
2003-11-29 00:58:38 UTC
Permalink
In alt.atheism on Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:59:48 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
a real person.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels.
Not evidence.
More evidence than you have provided for your assertion.
No, it's not.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Christmas.
Not evidence.
True. Christimas is evidence of nothing.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Josephus.
Not evidence.
Prove it. It is evidence,
No, it's not. It's one sentence, not evidence.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The fact that miracles are impossible. Check out Hume and Kant.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The fact that there's no such thing as the holy spirit.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Well, that about wraps up your supposed evidence.
It's evidence to him.
So? What are you going to try--epistemic solipsism?


Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.

"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
angelicusrex
2003-11-29 08:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Not evidence.
More evidence than you have provided for your assertion.
No, it's not.
Yes it is. If you want to be a big baby about it. But in fact you offered NO
evidence. So the Gospels at least are SOME evidence. Putz.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Prove it. It is evidence,
No, it's not. It's one sentence, not evidence.
That's one sentence more than you brought.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The fact that miracles are impossible. Check out Hume and Kant.
What on earth would either Hume or Kant know about miracles??? They weren't
religious or men of faith. Miracles happen every day. I've seen them. And
they are documented. Which again, is more documentation than you bring here.
Hume and Kant! Any philosopher can SAY miracles don't exist. This does not
make their statements scientifically accurate.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The fact that there's no such thing as the holy spirit.
That's not evidence, that is opinion. It is not "fact." If it were a fact,
everyone would have dismissed Holy Spirit. Since millions have not, then
that makes you in the minority. Odd how so few atheists seem to hold ALL the
facts in the world...
Post by Don Kresch
So? What are you going to try--epistemic solipsism?
No, I'll try mine with mustard and mayo, thanks.
I'm not into that hot stuff...

Saint
Don Kresch
2003-11-29 14:11:10 UTC
Permalink
In alt.atheism on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:30:52 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Not evidence.
More evidence than you have provided for your assertion.
No, it's not.
Yes it is.
No, actually it's not.
Post by angelicusrex
If you want to be a big baby about it. But in fact you offered NO
evidence.
In fact, I offered evidence. You can keep being Jason's
sock-puppet alter-ego all you like. It won't matter to me.
Post by angelicusrex
So the Gospels at least are SOME evidence. Putz.
So, the gospels aren't evidence. They are just stories. To use
them as evidence is to commit the fallacy of circularum in
demonstrando.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Prove it. It is evidence,
No, it's not. It's one sentence, not evidence.
That's one sentence more than you brought.
No, it's not.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The fact that miracles are impossible. Check out Hume and Kant.
What on earth would either Hume or Kant know about miracles???
Thus proving that you don't know their works. Read them.
Post by angelicusrex
They weren't
religious or men of faith.
*laughs*

Thus proving that you know nothing of either Hume or Kant, who
were clearly christian.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
No such thing.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The fact that there's no such thing as the holy spirit.
That's not evidence, that is opinion.
That's fact.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
So? What are you going to try--epistemic solipsism?
No, I'll try mine with mustard and mayo, thanks.
I'm not into that hot stuff...
You don't even know what solipsism is. You know nothing of
philosophy. You're simply being a poseur troll.


Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.

"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
angelicusrex
2003-11-29 20:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kresch
In fact, I offered evidence. You can keep being Jason's
sock-puppet alter-ego all you like. It won't matter to me.
I think both of you are brutish, egotistical babies. But Gastrich at least
tries to put forth some sort of debate. He doesn't have any support from me.
But since you have brought no evidence that the Gospels need to somehow be
denounced as totally without evidentiary materials, I'd have to conclude
that you, for all your calling Gastrich a liar or me a sock-puppet, are just
being a bull-headed moron.
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
So the Gospels at least are SOME evidence. Putz.
So, the gospels aren't evidence. They are just stories. To use
them as evidence is to commit the fallacy of circularum in
demonstrando.
The gospels may or may not be stories. The evidence is not in. I have gone
over much of the pros and cons. I believe the gospels are correct in many
points. A man named Jesus lived, was thought to be the messiah, was
crucified and a cult grew up around him. The title of this post: Jesus never
existed. The argument is whether he did or did not. However the gospels do
not jibe in details, they all specify the same things. There was a man named
Jesus, he lived in the region of Gallillee during what we now term the 1st
Century CE. We know from a document ripped off and stuck here by a guy named
"Religion is a Lie" that at least three to five Jesus' or Yeshuas, lived in
the region and were crucified by the Romans or killed by the Priesthood of
Israel. This confirms that either one or all of them were a model for the
Jesus in the gospels, or the Jesus in the gospels was just another
Jesus/messiah. It is obvious that the argument is now over. Did Jesus exist?
Most certainly. Many did. Pick one.

As for Hume and Kant, they were what they were, which does not make them
experts in either miracles or Christianity. They were philosophers. And I do
not credit them with discrediting miracles. I've read both their works and
they are pointless red herrings in your present argument. You cannot dismiss
Jesus being real by dismissing miracles by using Hume and Kant's works.
Philosophy is not science.

You call me a poseur and a troll. When did I troll you? and exactly what am
I posing as? I am simply doing what you keep accusing Gastrich of, bringing
to bear arguments, assertions and evidences of your own inability to make
your argument stick. Neither you nor Gastrich are right. All you are are two
people butting heads over faith in something neither of you seems to have
researched very well.

Saint
Don Kresch
2003-11-29 21:39:55 UTC
Permalink
In alt.atheism on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:53:55 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
In fact, I offered evidence. You can keep being Jason's
sock-puppet alter-ego all you like. It won't matter to me.
I think both of you are brutish, egotistical babies. But Gastrich at least
tries to put forth some sort of debate.
No, he doesn't. He just says "the bible is inerrant". That's not
debate. That's bullshit.
Post by angelicusrex
He doesn't have any support from me.
But since you have brought no evidence that the Gospels need to somehow be
denounced as totally without evidentiary materials,
He needs to show that they are evidence.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
So the Gospels at least are SOME evidence. Putz.
So, the gospels aren't evidence. They are just stories. To use
them as evidence is to commit the fallacy of circularum in
demonstrando.
The gospels may or may not be stories.
They are, especially considering the glaring errors in them (such
as Matthew's geography).
Post by angelicusrex
The evidence is not in. I have gone
over much of the pros and cons. I believe the gospels are correct in many
points. A man named Jesus lived, was thought to be the messiah, was
crucified and a cult grew up around him.
Maybe he was thought to be the messiah then, and maybe he wasn't.
Maybe he was crucified, and maybe he wasn't. There exactly 0 evidence
to support the notion that he was thought that and was crucified.

[snip]
Post by angelicusrex
As for Hume and Kant, they were what they were, which does not make them
experts in either miracles or Christianity.
How about reading what they wrote, rather than handwaving them
away?
Post by angelicusrex
They were philosophers. And I do
not credit them with discrediting miracles. I've read both their works
Liar.

[snip]
Post by angelicusrex
You call me a poseur and a troll. When did I troll you?
*yawn*

Looks like when you got called for being a troll, you suddenly
decided to straighten up. Good on you.


Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.

"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Figinn
2003-11-30 03:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kresch
Post by angelicusrex
The evidence is not in. I have gone
over much of the pros and cons. I believe the gospels are correct in many
points. A man named Jesus lived, was thought to be the messiah, was
crucified and a cult grew up around him.
Maybe he was thought to be the messiah then, and maybe he wasn't.
Maybe he was crucified, and maybe he wasn't. There exactly 0 evidence
to support the notion that he was thought that and was crucified.
Possibly. Yet studies of mythology typically show some truth behind the
fabrication. Meaning even if Jesus wasn't all what Christians believe,
there would be some discussion about where and how the story originated.

Figinn
JTEM
2003-11-30 09:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Figinn
Post by Don Kresch
Maybe he was thought to be the messiah then, and maybe he
wasn't. Maybe he was crucified, and maybe he wasn't. There
exactly 0 evidence to support the notion that he was thought
that and was crucified.
Possibly.
It's about as binary as you can get. Either show us the evidence
of agree with him.
Post by Figinn
Yet studies of mythology typically show some truth behind the
fabrication.
And some examples might be..... what?
Post by Figinn
Meaning even if Jesus wasn't all what Christians believe, there
would be some discussion about where and how the story
originated.
I agree, but I have yet to meet a Christian who would.
Jos Flachs
2003-11-30 08:34:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:53:55 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Don Kresch
In fact, I offered evidence. You can keep being Jason's
sock-puppet alter-ego all you like. It won't matter to me.
I think both of you are brutish, egotistical babies. But Gastrich at least
tries to put forth some sort of debate.
Debate? Dr. Jason debates??? I wasn't aware of it. "Doctor" Gastrich
consistently refuses to provide any evidence himself, and rejects all
evidence that would proof his babble incorrect. There is a distinct
difference between trolling and debating, but I doubt if you are aware
of it.
Post by angelicusrex
He doesn't have any support from me.
He needs all the help he can get. Even from loonies like you.
Post by angelicusrex
But since you have brought no evidence that the Gospels need to somehow be
denounced as totally without evidentiary materials, I'd have to conclude
that you, for all your calling Gastrich a liar or me a sock-puppet, are just
being a bull-headed moron.
Ad hominem.
Post by angelicusrex
The gospels may or may not be stories.
They are, that has been proven conclusively.
Post by angelicusrex
The evidence is not in.
In what is it then?
Post by angelicusrex
I have gone over much of the pros and cons. I believe the gospels are correct in many
points.
And in even more points, they are incorrect or conflict one another.
Post by angelicusrex
A man named Jesus lived, was thought to be the messiah, was
crucified and a cult grew up around him.
Which doesn't proof him to be a god.
Post by angelicusrex
The title of this post: Jesus never
existed. The argument is whether he did or did not. However the gospels do
not jibe in details, they all specify the same things.
Since three are based on the same original, hardly surprising.
Post by angelicusrex
There was a man named
Jesus, he lived in the region of Gallillee during what we now term the 1st
Century CE.
Which you proof by ...?

Gallilea was hillibilly country. If a person named jesus had lived
there, he wasn't anything more than a local shaman. No jew (outside
Gallilea) would take him seriously. Just another hillibilly quack.
Post by angelicusrex
We know from a document ripped off and stuck here by a guy named
"Religion is a Lie" that at least three to five Jesus' or Yeshuas, lived in
the region and were crucified by the Romans or killed by the Priesthood of
Israel. This confirms that either one or all of them were a model for the
Jesus in the gospels, or the Jesus in the gospels was just another
Jesus/messiah. It is obvious that the argument is now over. Did Jesus exist?
Most certainly. Many did. Pick one.
Plenty of jesus exist. One of them is doing my garden right now.
JTEM
2003-11-30 09:50:38 UTC
Permalink
But Gastrich at least tries to put forth some sort of debate.
If you call ignoring the evidence other people produce, while
lying & misrepresenting everything he can get his hands on, a
"debate."
Mike Painter
2003-11-28 18:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of God.
Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in
prayer."

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe
that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him
who knocks, the door will be opened.

John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you
will receive, and your joy will be complete.

Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be
thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his
heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to
pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

If any of the above were valid, that is, *anything* asked for would be given
then there would be little discussion of it and Randi would not have a
million dollars to offer.

Take Randi's challenge, perform an agreed upon miracle, make some converts
and do some good with a million dollars.
Dr. Jason Gastrich
2003-11-28 22:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Painter
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His
name. The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant
Word of God.
Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in
prayer."
Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer,
believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to
him who knocks, the door will be opened.
John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask
and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this
mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall
not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he
saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
If any of the above were valid, that is, *anything* asked for would
be given then there would be little discussion of it and Randi would
not have a million dollars to offer.
This means *anything* that is according to God's will. Asking for God to
give you something that is against His will would be like asking Him to do
or be something that is against His character. Impossible.
Post by Mike Painter
Take Randi's challenge, perform an agreed upon miracle, make some
converts and do some good with a million dollars.
I've interviewed James Randi. You can hear it here: http://sa.jcsm.org.
Like you, he embraces the Pharisee principle. "Give me a miracle for my
ego, right now, and I'll believe (or win money)." This isn't a biblical
principle and, in fact, it's just what the Pharisees requested. Jesus
refused to give them an ego sign and told them that resurrection would be
their sign.

God bless,
Jason
Mike Painter
2003-11-28 23:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Mike Painter
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His
name. The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant
Word of God.
Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in
prayer."
Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer,
believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to
him who knocks, the door will be opened.
John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask
and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this
mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall
not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he
saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
If any of the above were valid, that is, *anything* asked for would
be given then there would be little discussion of it and Randi would
not have a million dollars to offer.
This means *anything* that is according to God's will. Asking for God to
give you something that is against His will would be like asking Him to do
or be something that is against His character. Impossible.
So teh bible is inerrant except where you say it is errant. Where *exactly*
in "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." does
it say this?
What do you, breaker of the commandment not to lie, mean by the term
"whatever"?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Mike Painter
Take Randi's challenge, perform an agreed upon miracle, make some
converts and do some good with a million dollars.
I've interviewed James Randi. You can hear it here: http://sa.jcsm.org.
I've not the time to search your web site. If you can't give a reference to
such an interview I'll just assume it's another lie.

I'm not going to send you money or sign up for your email so I will wait
until I hear from Randi before commenting.
I did ask him how he lasted 49 minutes...
Gregory A Greenman
2003-11-29 23:14:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:41:05 GMT, Mike Painter
Post by Mike Painter
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
I've interviewed James Randi. You can hear it here: http://sa.jcsm.org.
I've not the time to search your web site. If you can't give a reference to
such an interview I'll just assume it's another lie.
I'm not going to send you money or sign up for your email so I will wait
until I hear from Randi before commenting.
I did ask him how he lasted 49 minutes...
Here's the link:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?
currSection=&sermonID=5603184726

Same link, somewhat shorter:
http://shorterlink.com/?8P1UQ1

I downloaded the Randi interview and the Kohls debate. I've
listened to the first hour of the debate and the first five
minutes of Randi. At some point I'll finish both.

If you want to download them, feel free to sign up
***@jcsm.org for their newsletter. That's what I did.




Greg the Reprobate
Missionary of Death
-------------------
greg -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Constance Vigilant
2003-11-29 23:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory A Greenman
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:41:05 GMT, Mike Painter
http://sa.jcsm.org.
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
I've not the time to search your web site. If you can't give a reference to
such an interview I'll just assume it's another lie.
I'm not going to send you money or sign up for your email so I will wait
until I hear from Randi before commenting.
I did ask him how he lasted 49 minutes...
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?
currSection=&sermonID=5603184726
http://shorterlink.com/?8P1UQ1
I downloaded the Randi interview and the Kohls debate. I've
listened to the first hour of the debate and the first five
minutes of Randi. At some point I'll finish both.
If you want to download them, feel free to sign up
Greg the Reprobate
Missionary of Death
-------------------
greg -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Gasterix rox.
(That's Latin for Gastrich Rocks, by the way)

In Love,
Constance Vigilant
Gregory A Greenman
2003-11-30 01:09:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:26:00 +0100, Constance Vigilant
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Gregory A Greenman
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:41:05 GMT, Mike Painter
http://sa.jcsm.org.
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
I've not the time to search your web site. If you can't give a reference
to
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
such an interview I'll just assume it's another lie.
I'm not going to send you money or sign up for your email so I will
wait
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
until I hear from Randi before commenting.
I did ask him how he lasted 49 minutes...
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?
currSection=&sermonID=5603184726
http://shorterlink.com/?8P1UQ1
I downloaded the Randi interview and the Kohls debate. I've
listened to the first hour of the debate and the first five
minutes of Randi. At some point I'll finish both.
If you want to download them, feel free to sign up
Gasterix rox.
(That's Latin for Gastrich Rocks, by the way)
In his head?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
In Love,
Constance Vigilant
That's sweet, but I'm already married.




Greg the Reprobate
Missionary of Death
-------------------
greg -at- spencersoft -dot- com
stoney
2003-12-01 01:41:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:26:00 +0100, "Constance Vigilant"
<***@arthurandersen.com>, Message ID: <bqb9uc$fd1$***@pita.alt.net>
wrote in alt.atheism;
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Gregory A Greenman
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:41:05 GMT, Mike Painter
http://sa.jcsm.org.
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
I've not the time to search your web site. If you can't give a reference
to
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
such an interview I'll just assume it's another lie.
I'm not going to send you money or sign up for your email so I will
wait
Post by Gregory A Greenman
Post by Mike Painter
until I hear from Randi before commenting.
I did ask him how he lasted 49 minutes...
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?
currSection=&sermonID=5603184726
http://shorterlink.com/?8P1UQ1
I downloaded the Randi interview and the Kohls debate. I've
listened to the first hour of the debate and the first five
minutes of Randi. At some point I'll finish both.
If you want to download them, feel free to sign up
Greg the Reprobate
Missionary of Death
-------------------
greg -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Gasterix rox.
(That's Latin for Gastrich Rocks, by the way)
Yep, concrete from ear to ear.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
In Love,
Poor thing. How sad to have set your standards so low.
Come come, aim higher. I'm sure you'll be able to land a randy trash
collector.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Constance Vigilant
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
Gregory A Greenman
2003-11-29 00:05:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:26:29 GMT, Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels.
To the same extent that The Iliad is evidence of Achilles.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Christmas.
Huh?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Josephus.
Only if you count forged quotes as evidence.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
Jason, from your previous posting history, I know you're not
that bright, but I didn't know you're delusional too. Exactly
what miracles have you done? Exorcisms? Bringing the dead
back to life? Faith healing?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
Your imagination is evidence that jesus was real?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The inerrant Word of God.
The one that says pi is three, bats are birds and rabbits
chew their cud?




Greg the Reprobate
Missionary of Death
-------------------
greg -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Jos Flachs
2003-11-29 01:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The gospels.
Are based on two utterly UNrelated versions. Written decades after the
events.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Christmas.
A pagan festival, to celebrate the shortest day of the year. Taken
over by xtians in the 3rd century.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Josephus.
Said nothing about jesus, the lines you refer to are a known forgery.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
Ganesh did bigger miracles. So did Kali.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
Whereabouts?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The inerrant Word of God.
Is found in which bible exactly?
Nevermore
2003-11-29 16:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jos Flachs
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The gospels.
Are based on two utterly UNrelated versions. Written decades after the
events.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Christmas.
A pagan festival, to celebrate the shortest day of the year. Taken
over by xtians in the 3rd century.
Which the Christians barely bothered to celebrate until Charles Dickens
and Queen Victoria decided to popularize it in the 19th Century as a
holiday which celebrated FAMILY not particulary Christ. "A Christmas
Carol" is far more about secular charity and kindness to family members
and living your life with a spirit of generosity than it is about thrall
to Christian worship and celebration of the birth of Jesus. Scrooge
doesn't get down with holy spirit - Ghosts convince him to go to dinner
with his nephew, hardly the key point of the Bible.
Post by Jos Flachs
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Josephus.
Said nothing about jesus, the lines you refer to are a known forgery.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The miracles I've done in His name.
Ganesh did bigger miracles. So did Kali.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me.
Whereabouts?
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
The inerrant Word of God.
Is found in which bible exactly?
stoney
2003-11-30 02:36:49 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:26:29 GMT, "Dr. Jason Gastrich" <***@jcsm.org>,
Message ID: <FMCxb.53839$***@twister.socal.rr.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of God.
(laughter) Ah, yes, the clueless.
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
Ineedmoney
2003-11-30 16:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of God.
WHAT?!

The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!

Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every other
Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.

Josephus: Josephus is a historian that not only failed to mention the things
in the gospels, but failed to refer to refer to Messiah. He talked about a
man who said he was the Messiah, thats all. Its clear the quote was forged,
i mean he was Jew why would would he say Jesus was the Messiah and then
never mention it again!? The quote first appeared in a book by a very
dishonest Christian historian that admitted to altering texts in the name of
God. So even if he was talking about the man Jesus was based on, that would
still make the gospels wrong becuase Josephus doesnt back any of it up.

Miracles: Yea? I can show you Hindus, Jews, Muslims and all manor of Pagans
that will tell you the same thing. What does your particular pleading prove?

The Holy Spirit: So it talks to you does it? I cant find Hindus, Jews,
Muslims and all manor of Pagans that will tell you the same thing.What does
your particular pleading prove?


Ed
Roger Pearse
2003-12-02 16:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ineedmoney
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of
God.
WHAT?!
The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!
What a load of derivative tosh! You know, making these sorts of
statements comes very close to telling deliberate lies.
Post by Ineedmoney
Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every other
Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.
And these.

So, I take it you'll be sending your Christmas presents back, with a
prim little sermon like this? No...? <chortle>
Post by Ineedmoney
Josephus: Josephus is a historian that not only failed to mention the things
in the gospels, but failed to refer to refer to Messiah. He talked about a
man who said he was the Messiah, thats all.
So?
Post by Ineedmoney
Its clear the quote was forged,
i mean he was Jew why would would he say Jesus was the Messiah and then
never mention it again!?
Because, flat-foot, if you read Josephus you would find that he was
writing for Romans, not Jews. Josephus didn't believe in Jesus. But
he knew that Romans knew him as 'Christus.'
Post by Ineedmoney
The quote first appeared in a book by a very
dishonest Christian historian that admitted to altering texts in the name of
God.
This is a slander on Eusebius of Caesarea, which atheists circulate.
It's funny how every atheist seems to be boiling with hate. Everyone
they reference, other than themselves, is a liar, or a forger, or
whatever.

This is why normal people regard atheists as something that should be
kept in a zoo.
Post by Ineedmoney
So even if he was talking about the man Jesus was based on, that would
still make the gospels wrong becuase Josephus doesnt back any of it up.
Probably better read Josephus before posting more on this.

Incidentally, the Testimonium Flavianum is certainly corrupt in the
Greek text.
Post by Ineedmoney
Miracles: Yea? I can show you Hindus, Jews, Muslims and all manor of Pagans
that will tell you the same thing. What does your particular pleading prove?
The Holy Spirit: So it talks to you does it? I cant find Hindus, Jews,
Muslims and all manor of Pagans that will tell you the same thing.What does
your particular pleading prove?
Well, you'd better convert to islam pretty quick then. You know what
Moslems and Hindus do to people like you, who insult God, don't you?

Kindly spare us this special pleading. You cannot cite religions in
which you do not believe as evidence.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
t***@yahoo.dk
2003-12-02 21:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of
God.
WHAT?!
The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!
What a load of derivative tosh! You know, making these sorts of
statements comes very close to telling deliberate lies.
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
Do you believe that there was an empire-wide census at that time at
all?
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every other
Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.
And these.
So, I take it you'll be sending your Christmas presents back, with a
prim little sermon like this? No...? <chortle>
Why would you expect that to be done? Do you believe in Santa Claus?
No? (chortle)

snip
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Ineedmoney
2003-12-02 23:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of
God.
WHAT?!
The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!
What a load of derivative tosh! You know, making these sorts of
statements comes very close to telling deliberate lies.
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
Do you believe that there was an empire-wide census at that time at
all?
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every other
Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.
And these.
So, I take it you'll be sending your Christmas presents back, with a
prim little sermon like this? No...? <chortle>
Why would you expect that to be done? Do you believe in Santa Claus?
No? (chortle)
Can someone post Roger Pearse's full reply, my server didnt pick it up and I
want to respond!

Ed
t***@yahoo.dk
2003-12-03 09:07:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:44:25 -0000, "Ineedmoney"
<***@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

snip
Post by Ineedmoney
Can someone post Roger Pearse's full reply, my server didnt pick it up and I
want to respond!
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of
God.
WHAT?!
The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!
What a load of derivative tosh! You know, making these sorts of
statements comes very close to telling deliberate lies.
Post by Ineedmoney
Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every other
Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.
And these.

So, I take it you'll be sending your Christmas presents back, with a
prim little sermon like this? No...? <chortle>
Post by Ineedmoney
Josephus: Josephus is a historian that not only failed to mention the things
in the gospels, but failed to refer to refer to Messiah. He talked about a
man who said he was the Messiah, thats all.
So?
Post by Ineedmoney
Its clear the quote was forged,
i mean he was Jew why would would he say Jesus was the Messiah and then
never mention it again!?
Because, flat-foot, if you read Josephus you would find that he was
writing for Romans, not Jews. Josephus didn't believe in Jesus. But
he knew that Romans knew him as 'Christus.'
Post by Ineedmoney
The quote first appeared in a book by a very
dishonest Christian historian that admitted to altering texts in the name of
God.
This is a slander on Eusebius of Caesarea, which atheists circulate.
It's funny how every atheist seems to be boiling with hate. Everyone
they reference, other than themselves, is a liar, or a forger, or
whatever.

This is why normal people regard atheists as something that should be
kept in a zoo.
Post by Ineedmoney
So even if he was talking about the man Jesus was based on, that would
still make the gospels wrong becuase Josephus doesnt back any of it up.
Probably better read Josephus before posting more on this.

Incidentally, the Testimonium Flavianum is certainly corrupt in the
Greek text.
Post by Ineedmoney
Miracles: Yea? I can show you Hindus, Jews, Muslims and all manor of Pagans
that will tell you the same thing. What does your particular pleading prove?
The Holy Spirit: So it talks to you does it? I cant find Hindus, Jews,
Muslims and all manor of Pagans that will tell you the same thing.What does
your particular pleading prove?
Well, you'd better convert to islam pretty quick then. You know what
Moslems and Hindus do to people like you, who insult God, don't you?

Kindly spare us this special pleading. You cannot cite religions in
which you do not believe as evidence.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Roger Pearse
2003-12-05 10:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of
God.
WHAT?!
The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!
What a load of derivative tosh! You know, making these sorts of
statements comes very close to telling deliberate lies.
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
May I ask whether you *know* -- rather than want to believe --
different? If so, I'd like to see the ancient evidence to the
contrary.

It's a curious question for anyone to ask. Firstly, what evidence is
there that any ancient document, including the New Testament, records
such an order? That something of the kind happened in Palestine at
the end of Herod's reign doesn't seem in any way improbable to my
ignorant eyes.

Secondly, supposing it is a mistake -- then, do you believe that a
document 'is not historical' if it contains errors of fact? Perhaps
you would like to list ancient histories which you believe pass this
test?

Finally, do you really think anyone takes these off-the-shelf bits of
atheist polemic seriously? Any fool can think up objections to an
ancient document. So doing is a good way to avoid learning anything.
Atheists assert all sorts of tosh. But have you noticed that everyone
else -- Christian and non-Christian --treats them as god-bothering
lunatics? If not, perhaps you should!
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Do you believe that there was an empire-wide census at that time at
all?
Do you know anything about the Roman census process? If so, cite the
ancient texts which refer to it, and we can discuss it.

As far as I know, the Romans did their census on a province by
province basis, but I am willing to be corrected -- from the ancient
evidence.
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every
other Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.
And these.
So, I take it you'll be sending your Christmas presents back, with a
prim little sermon like this? No...? <chortle>
Why would you expect that to be done? Do you believe in Santa Claus?
No? (chortle)
You believe your presents come from Santa? Well well.

By the way, if you can't think of anything original to say, don't just
repeat what I say. It's childish.
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
snip
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Indeed.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Li Mu Bai
2003-12-05 10:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
You believe your presents come from Santa?
How is that any different from your belief that salvation comes from
Jesus?

Hint: it's not.
Jos Flachs
2003-12-05 12:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
May I ask whether you *know* -- rather than want to believe --
different? If so, I'd like to see the ancient evidence to the
contrary.
Well, for starters: Judea was not part of the Roman empire. Kinda
difficult for the emperor to order a census there.
Post by Roger Pearse
It's a curious question for anyone to ask. Firstly, what evidence is
there that any ancient document, including the New Testament, records
such an order?
Sorry Roger. That is begging the question. Do you deny that the bible
mentions that census?
Post by Roger Pearse
That something of the kind happened in Palestine at
the end of Herod's reign doesn't seem in any way improbable to my
ignorant eyes.
Well, you forget one point: if a census was ordered, it would apply to
men only. Never to women. Next, one would register in the nearest city
to your home town (if different) where a census official was resident.

Any other arrangement would create major havoc with the economy - and
be exactly opposite of the goal: registering all MALE citizen for tax
purposes.
Post by Roger Pearse
Secondly, supposing it is a mistake -- then, do you believe that a
document 'is not historical' if it contains errors of fact? Perhaps
you would like to list ancient histories which you believe pass this
test?
Finally, do you really think anyone takes these off-the-shelf bits of
atheist polemic seriously? Any fool can think up objections to an
ancient document. So doing is a good way to avoid learning anything.
Atheists assert all sorts of tosh. But have you noticed that everyone
else -- Christian and non-Christian --treats them as god-bothering
lunatics? If not, perhaps you should!
In the past I respected your attitude with regard to ancient
documents. But now much less so. Sorry. You go - in my personal
opinion of course - way to far to apologize biblical errors.
Uncle Davey
2003-12-05 13:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jos Flachs
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
May I ask whether you *know* -- rather than want to believe --
different? If so, I'd like to see the ancient evidence to the
contrary.
Well, for starters: Judea was not part of the Roman empire. Kinda
difficult for the emperor to order a census there.
Oh yeah?

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/empire.stm

Uncle Davey
Jos Flachs
2003-12-06 01:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Davey
Post by Jos Flachs
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
May I ask whether you *know* -- rather than want to believe --
different? If so, I'd like to see the ancient evidence to the
contrary.
Well, for starters: Judea was not part of the Roman empire. Kinda
difficult for the emperor to order a census there.
Oh yeah?
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/empire.stm
Uncle Davey
Yeah. We're talking here about jesus birth, right? Not his death. At
the time of jesus birth, Judea was a client kingdom ruled under Herod.
Look careful at the map you post.

And kindly feel very foolish, will you? :-)
It shows Judea in green, it was incorporated in the empire at Augustus
death.
t***@yahoo.dk
2003-12-05 20:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Post by Dr. Jason Gastrich
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
The gospels. Christmas. Josephus. The miracles I've done in His name.
The Holy Spirit He gave me that lives within me. The inerrant Word of
God.
WHAT?!
The gospels: IS NOT HISTORICAL... No mass baby killing, no eclipse, no
earthquake, no ZOMBIES, no census, No Nazereth ever existed either!
What a load of derivative tosh! You know, making these sorts of
statements comes very close to telling deliberate lies.
Oh? Do you believe, for example, that Augustus really ordered
everyone in the empire to go to the city of their birth to register?
May I ask whether you *know* -- rather than want to believe --
different? If so, I'd like to see the ancient evidence to the
What did I claim to know? I asked you a question. The question is
perfectly legitimate.
Post by Roger Pearse
It's a curious question for anyone to ask. Firstly, what evidence is
there that any ancient document, including the New Testament, records
such an order? That something of the kind happened in Palestine at
the end of Herod's reign doesn't seem in any way improbable to my
ignorant eyes.
Chapter 2 of Luke - verses 1 through 3. It does not say Palestine.
The claim is that the order went out for a census of the "whole
world", i.e. the entire empire. It certainly seems improbable to me,
since the inevitable result would have been chaos or, more likely,
Augustus would have been done away with for ordering a census with the
requirements stated in Luke.
Post by Roger Pearse
Secondly, supposing it is a mistake -- then, do you believe that a
document 'is not historical' if it contains errors of fact? Perhaps
you would like to list ancient histories which you believe pass this
test?
You called it derivative tosh when it was claimed these events did not
take place. Furthermore we are talking about a document that is
claimed to be inspired by god. Pointing out errors is then a
legitimate attack on that claim.
Post by Roger Pearse
Finally, do you really think anyone takes these off-the-shelf bits of
atheist polemic seriously? Any fool can think up objections to an
ancient document. So doing is a good way to avoid learning anything.
Atheists assert all sorts of tosh. But have you noticed that everyone
else -- Christian and non-Christian --treats them as god-bothering
lunatics? If not, perhaps you should!
No, I have not noticed that. I have also not noticed that the claims
of error are exclusively made by atheists. Apparently you live in a
different universe.
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Do you believe that there was an empire-wide census at that time at
all?
Do you know anything about the Roman census process? If so, cite the
ancient texts which refer to it, and we can discuss it.
As far as I know, the Romans did their census on a province by
province basis, but I am willing to be corrected -- from the ancient
evidence.
I merely asked for any evidence that an empire-wide census was taken
at that time. I am also interested in your thoughts on the
possibility of carrying out a census in which all had to go to his own
town to register.
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by t***@yahoo.dk
Post by Roger Pearse
Post by Ineedmoney
Christmas: Christmas is a PAGAN festival. Early Christians STOLE the
festival by worshipping their saviour (Jesus) on the same day as every
other Pagan saviour. Everything about Christmas is Pagan related.
And these.
So, I take it you'll be sending your Christmas presents back, with a
prim little sermon like this? No...? <chortle>
Why would you expect that to be done? Do you believe in Santa Claus?
No? (chortle)
You believe your presents come from Santa? Well well.
Dishonest distortion of point noted.
Post by Roger Pearse
By the way, if you can't think of anything original to say, don't just
repeat what I say. It's childish.
Very well, I will try not to do that. Since I have managed to avoid
it so far, I am fairly confident I will continue to do so.

Avoiding answering inconvenient questions by insulting the person
asking them may or may not be childish, but it is dishonest as well as
cowardly. You are a fraud.


None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Roger Pearse
2003-11-28 14:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
Usenet contains little else.
How many times have we killed you?
Post by Christians Kill
Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no
longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent
allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to
make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place
that the churches in all these centuries have made it.
--Bertrand Russell
Now known to have been a sleazeball of the first water who tormented
his family for amusement.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Figinn
2003-11-28 15:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
Such tiresome arguments. How about you give me any evidence that anyone is
a real person? How can you prove to me that you're not a figment of my
imagination ... a mental delusion created by my mind merely to amuse myself?

And at this point, it doesn't really matter if Jesus of Nazareth actually
ever lived. If he did exist, it doesn't really matter what he did or what
he said, whether his mama was a virgin, whether he ever married, whether he
was crucified and whether he was resurrected.

People believe in such things. Perceived reality becomes subjective reality
which many times becomes actual reality. If some Christian believes in
Jesus and that makes them want to be a "better" person then Jesus is real
for them and their reality is manifested in their interactions with others.
If some Christian believes in Jesus and that makes them act like an asshole,
well it has the same effect.

So why do we all insist on nitpicking details? Leave them alone ... you're
clearly not adding anything of substance to anyone's reality ... or is it
you just like to whine and moan about how the big, bad Christians ruin
everything for you? They don't ruin everything for me. I don't have to
agree with someone in order to tolerate their belief systems. Most
Christians I know are actually pretty nice folks ... they just believe in
different things than I do.

Figinn
Uncle Davey
2003-11-28 15:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Figinn
Post by Christians Kill
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is the evidence for your claim?
Such tiresome arguments. How about you give me any evidence that anyone is
a real person? How can you prove to me that you're not a figment of my
imagination ... a mental delusion created by my mind merely to amuse myself?
And at this point, it doesn't really matter if Jesus of Nazareth actually
ever lived. If he did exist, it doesn't really matter what he did or what
he said, whether his mama was a virgin, whether he ever married, whether he
was crucified and whether he was resurrected.
People believe in such things. Perceived reality becomes subjective reality
which many times becomes actual reality. If some Christian believes in
Jesus and that makes them want to be a "better" person then Jesus is real
for them and their reality is manifested in their interactions with others.
If some Christian believes in Jesus and that makes them act like an asshole,
well it has the same effect.
So why do we all insist on nitpicking details? Leave them alone ... you're
clearly not adding anything of substance to anyone's reality ... or is it
you just like to whine and moan about how the big, bad Christians ruin
everything for you? They don't ruin everything for me. I don't have to
agree with someone in order to tolerate their belief systems. Most
Christians I know are actually pretty nice folks ... they just believe in
different things than I do.
Figinn
It's very nice to be tolerated, but it's still my duty to tell you that
Christ is not about making us good people, he is about making us forgiven
people.

I for one will never be good no matter how hard I try, until I follow in my
Lord's resurrection.

Uncle Davey
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-11-29 20:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is your evidence for this extraordinary claim?
Constance Vigilant
2003-11-29 22:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is your evidence for this extraordinary claim?
The genus name should have a capital letter, and the species name a small
letter, turkeyboy.

In Love,
Constance Vigilant
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-12-01 03:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Constance Vigilant
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus was a real person.
Where is your evidence for this extraordinary claim?
The genus name should have a capital letter, and the species name a small
letter, turkeyboy.
My name is Melleagris Gallopavo. As such, it should have a capital letter.
Now, where is your evidence that Jesus was a real person?
Blast Femur
2003-11-27 05:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Religion is a Lie
The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen

Jesus seems to have, like the humanity he mythologically represents,
evolved through time. He is but a combination, stolen and mixed from
previous myths throughout history.

Through the advent of brainwashing, mind manipulation by the
administration of the concept of eternal afterlife vs. eternal horrific
punishment, and despite the advancement of science today, he still
commands a great portion of the minds of the fearful, regardless of their
presentday intellect.

Amazing, isn't it?
--
Blast Femur

______________

"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing
lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So
primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning bushes
talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'"

-Paul Provenza
duke
2003-11-27 13:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc. The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD - it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed in
the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!
Is there any reason that anyone should believe you? It's easy to say, but why
would anyone care about your mistakes?
Post by Religion is a Lie
The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?
God became man in the person of Jesus Christ.
Post by Religion is a Lie
I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".
Like what?
turk
2003-11-27 16:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc. The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD - it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed in
the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!
Is there any reason that anyone should believe you? It's easy to say, but why
would anyone care about your mistakes?
Post by Religion is a Lie
The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?
God became man in the person of Jesus Christ.
This is your evidence? Superman became man in the person of Clark Kent.
Batman became man in the person of Bruce Wayne. Captain Marvel became man
in the person of Billy Batson. I know these things to be real fact since my
holy comic books tell me so.
Post by duke
Post by Religion is a Lie
I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".
Like what?
The Rapture, anti-abortion groups and their "God opposes abortion" claims,
prayer in public (Matthew 6:5 clearly calls this hypocritical), the worship
of false icons (see Judge Roy Moore and Alabama), just off the top of my
head...

turk
duke
2003-11-27 22:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by turk
Post by duke
Post by Religion is a Lie
I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".
Like what?
The Rapture, anti-abortion groups and their "God opposes abortion" claims,
Abortion and abortionists are on a quick trip to the hellhole.
Post by turk
prayer in public (Matthew 6:5 clearly calls this hypocritical),
Matthew 6
Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray
standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell
you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

Sorry, praying in public is not at all hypocritical. Praying to impress people
rather than God is hypocritical.
Post by turk
the worship
of false icons (see Judge Roy Moore and Alabama),
Nobody worshipped Roy's rock.

What in the world are you talking about?
Post by turk
just off the top of my head...
turk
I suggest you put it back in your pocket.
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-11-29 04:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Well, Hitler was an atheist
Well, no, Hitler was a Christian. Here is the evidence that you are
lying again, Jason:

Hitler's Christian Beliefs and Fanaticism
Selected quotes from Mein Kampf

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord." 1

- Adolf Hitler, from Mein Kampf

Many pious and dishonest Christians claim that Adolf Hitler was an
atheist. Their assertion however is an outright lie.

Hitler was a Christian. He was raised as a Catholic and attended
Catholic schools. Much of Hitler's philosophy, as detailed in Mein
Kampf, came right out of the Bible, and more importantly, from the
Christian Socialist Movement of early twentieth-century Europe.

Hitler's anti-Semitism grew from his Christian education, which taught
him that Jews were inferior to Christians. Jewish hatred did not
spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests,
and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years.

Hitler took his Christian beliefs for granted and thus concentrated on
politics and military power. Through political power Hitler wanted to
create a German Reich Church (the Third Reich) to instill dogmatic
beliefs in the German populace.

Future generations should understand that Adolph Hitler could not have
come into power without the support of German Christians, Protestant
(Lutheran) Churches and the Vatican.

Suggested Reading: Hitler's Pope, by John Cornwall

Pope Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli) and the Vatican greatly assisted
Hitler in his rise to power in Germany. The Reich Concordat, a formal
agreement bewteen Pius XII and Hitler, muzzled German Catholics and
virtually silenced Church criticism of Nazi atrocities. Pius XII
authorized the use of concentration camp labor to maintain church
properties in territory under German control. None of these
irrefutable facts, however, has stopped a movement by the current
pope, John Paul II, to elevate the immoral Pius XII to sainthood.

The following quotes from Mein Kampf prove Hitler held fanatical
religious beliefs. Note the many biblical references.

Volume 1, Chapter 1, In the House of My Parents

Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily
bread of future generations will grow.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Note: "Their sword will become our plow" appears to paraphrase Micah
4:3 about beating swords into ploughshares, but his tears of war more
resembles Joel 3:9-10 "Beat your plowshares into swords."

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn
splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the
abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my
father, the highest and most desirable ideal.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

I thank Heaven that a portion of the memories of those days still
remains with me. Woods and meadows were the battlefields on which the
'conflicts' which exist everywhere in life were decided.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Only a handful of Germans in the Reich had the slightest conception of
the eternal and merciless struggle for the German language, German
schools, and a German way of life. Only today, when the same
deplorable misery is forced on many millions of Germans from the
Reich, who under foreign rule dream of their common fatherland and
strive, amid their longing, at least to preserve their holy right to
their mother tongue, do wider circles understand what it means to be
forced to fight for one's nationality.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 2, Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna

...God have mercy!
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Fate must bring retribution, unless men conciliate Fate while there is
still time. How thankful I am today to the Providence which sent me to
that school!
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Thus my faith grew that my beautiful dream for the future would become
reality after all, even though this might require long years.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The more the linguistic Babel corroded and disorganized parliament,
the closer drew the inevitable hour of the disintegration of this
Babylonian Empire, and with it the hour of freedom for my
German-Austrian people.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Not until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across
the word 'Jew,' with any frequency, partly in connection with
political discussions.... For the Jew was still characterized for me
by nothing but his religion, and therefore, on grounds of human
tolerance, I maintained my rejection of religious attacks in this case
as in others. Consequently, the tone, particularly that of the
Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural
tradition of a great nation.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time
to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all
events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the
movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl
Lueger and the Christian Social Party.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Note: Karl Lueger (1844-1910) belonged as a member of the
anti-Semitic Christian Social Party, he became mayor of Vienna and
kept his post until his death.) The man and the movement seemed
'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced
me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become
acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment
turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this
man as the greatest German mayor of all times.
-Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger (Mein Kampf)

How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my
attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to
anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my
greatest transformation of all.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am
fighting for the work of the Lord.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 3 General Political Considerations Based on My
Vienna Period

A man does not die for something which he himself does not believe in.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The Western democracy of today is the forerunner of Marxism which
without it would not be thinkable. It provides this world plague with
the culture in which its germs can spread.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Just as a man's denominational orientation is the result of
upbringing, and only the religious need as such slumbers in his soul,
the political opinion of the masses represents nothing but the final
result of an incredibly tenacious and thorough manipulation of their
mind and soul.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

God forbid!
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be
'discovered' by an election.
-Adolf Hitler with his twist on Mark 10:25 (Mein Kampf)

Thank the Lord, Germanic democracy means just this: that any old
climber or moral slacker cannot rise by devious paths to govern his
national comrades, but that, by the very greatness of the
responsibility to be assumed, incompetents and weaklings are
frightened of.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

For by employing religious force in the service of its political
considerations, the crown aroused a spirit which at that outset it had
not considered possible.
-Adolf Hitler on the state of Rome (Mein Kampf)

For when a people is not willing or able to fight for its existence--
Providence in its eternal justice has decreed that people's end.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume
the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Even less could I understand how the Christian Social Party at this
same period could achieve such immense power. At that time it had just
reached the apogee of its glory.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

But the power which has always started the greatest religious and
political avalanches in history rolling has from time to immemorial
been the magic of power of the spoken word, and that alone.
Particularly the broad masses of the people can be moved only by the
power of speech.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The hard struggle which the Pan-Germans fought with the Catholic
Church can be accounted for only by their insufficient understanding
of the spiritual nature of the people.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The root of the whole evil lay, particularly in Schonerer's opinion,
in the fact that the directing body of the Catholic Church was not in
Germany, and that for this very reason alone it was hostile to the
interests of our nationality.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Protestantism as such is a better defender of the interests of
Germanism, in so far as this is grounded in its genesis and later
tradition; it fails, however, in the moment when this defense of
national interests must take place in a province which is either
absent from the general line of its ideological world and traditional
development, or is for some reason rejected.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Thus, Protestantism will always stand up for the advancement of all
Germans as such, as long as matters of inner purity or national
deepening as well as German freedom are involved, since all these
things have a firm foundation in its own being; but it combats with
the greatest hostility any attempt to rescue the nation from the
embrace of its most mortal enemy, since its attitude toward the Jews
just happens to be more or less dogmatically established.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled
their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or
Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare,
there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for
whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Verily a man cannot serve two masters. And I consider the foundation
or destruction of a religion far greater than the foundation or
destruction of a state, let alone a party.
-Adolf Hitler speaking like Jesus in Matthew 6:24 (Mein Kampf)

Heaven will smile on us again.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long
as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and
ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the
scheming of political parties.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of
his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be
in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!
-Adolf Hitler [the original comes in italics] (Mein Kampf)

In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was
wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and
well-planned.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale
propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological
instincts of the broad masses of its adherents.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was
based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked
among the great minds of our people.
-Adolf Hitler speaking about the leader of the Christian Social
movement (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 4, Munich

But the people on top made a cult of the 'ally,' as if it were the
Golden Calf.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(The Golden calf occurs in Exodus 32:1-4)

Mankind has grown great in eternal struggle, and only in eternal peace
does it perish.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

We must, therefore, coolly and objectively adopt the standpoint that
it can certainly not be the intention of Heaven to give one people
fifty times as much land and soil in this world as another.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

...a man does not die for business, but for ideals.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 5, The World War

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted
to live at this time.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at
the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of
grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the
eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Indeed, nearly all attempts to exterminate a doctrine and its
organizational expression, by force without spiritual foundation, are
doomed to failure, and not seldom end with the exact opposite of the
desired result...
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very
first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always
and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence
which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering
and uncertain.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 6, War Propaganda

I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which
has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the
Christian-Social movement, especially in Lueger's time achieved a
certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its
success.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the
most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence
is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 7, The Revolution

More than once I was tormented by the thought that if Providence had
put me in the place of the incapable of criminal incompetents or
scoundrels in our propaganda service, our battle with Destiny would
have taken a different turn.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the
endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace
smiled on His ungrateful children.
-Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I (Mein Kampf)

...we must pray to the Almighty not to refuse His blessing to this
change and not to abandon our people in the times to come.
-Hitler recalling a priest's speech after the defeat of WWI (Mein
Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 8, The Beginning of My Political Activity

As soon as the theoretician attempts to take account of so-called
'utility' and 'reality' instead of absolute truth, his work will cease
to be a polar star of seeking humanity and instead will become a
prescription for everyday life.
-Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I (Mein Kampf)

The thinking of the one, therefore, will be determined by eternal
truth, the actions of the other more by the practical reality of the
moment. The greatness of the one lies in the absolute abstract
soundness of his idea...
-Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I (Mein Kampf)

The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the
more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it
continues to depend on human beings...
If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted
among the greatest men of this earth... In its workings, even the
religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its
exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction
which it attempted to give to a universal human development of
culture, ethics, and morality.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other
great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin
Luther as well as Richard Wagner.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction
of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the
purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland,
so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission
allotted it by the creator of the universe.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 10, Causes of the Collapse

Consequently, the value and importance of the monarchic idea cannot
reside in the person of the monarch himself except if Heaven decides
to lay the crown on the brow of the heroic genius like Frederick the
Great or a wise character like William I.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hastily and indifferently, people tried to pass by the unpleasant
truths, as though by such an attitude events could be undone. No, the
fact that our big city population is growing more and more prostituted
in its love life cannot just be denied out of existence; it simply is
so.
...it is said with such terrible justice that the sins of the fathers
are avenged down to the tenth generation. But this applies only to
profanation of the blood and the race.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Avenged to the tenth generation appears in Deuteronomy 23:2-3)

Blood sin and desecration of the race are the original sin in this
world and the end of a humanity which surrenders to it.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution,
against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general
views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles.
The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things
is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In
late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution
which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to
humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who
with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning
of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse
for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served
up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able
to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the
youth...
Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays
must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed
in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea.
-Adolf Hitler sounding like the Moral Majority (Mein Kampf)

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought
to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from
now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to
profane the Almighty.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The works of Mortiz von Schwind, or of a Bo:cklin, were also an inner
experience, but of artists graced by God and not of clowns.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

How widespread the general disunity was growing is shown by an
examination of religious conditions before the War. Here, too, a
unified and effective philosophical conviction had long since been
lost in large sections of the nation. In this the members officially
breaking away from the churches play a less important role than those
who are completely indifferent.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order
to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast
but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan
faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and
millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious
life or simply so their own ways. The consequences, particularly from
a moral point of view, are not favorable.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Also noteworthy is the increasingly violent struggle against the
dogmatic foundations of the various churches without which in this
human world the practical existence of a religious faith is not
conceivable.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely
for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral
attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from
the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful
replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine
and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional
authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all
efficacy.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The attack against dogmas as such, therefore, strongly resembles the
struggle against the general legal foundations of a state, and , as
the latter would end in a total anarchy of the state, the former would
end in a worthless religious nihilism.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Worst of all, however, is the devastation wrought by the misuse of
religious conviction for political ends. In truth, we cannot sharply
enough attack those wretched crooks who would like to make religion an
implement to perform political or rather business services for them.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 11, Nation and Race

The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the
following:
(a) Lowering of the level of the higher race;
(b) Physical and intellectual regression and hence the beginning of a
slowly but surely progressing sickness.
To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin
against the will of the eternal creator. And as a sin this act is
rewarded.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Here, of course, we encounter the objection of the modern pacifist, as
truly Jewish in its effrontery as it is stupid! 'Man's role is to
overcome Nature!'
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(Man's dominion over earth appears in Genesis 1:26)

...the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his
expulsion.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(See Genesis Chapter 3)

...that is why the prophet seldom has any honor in his own country.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

("For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his
own country." John 4:44)

The purest idealism is unconsciously equivalent to the deepest
knowledge.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The Jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics
and never a religion.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot pos ess a
religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks
idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely
foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined
which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form.
Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter,
but only for a practical and profitable life in this world.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious
education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his
spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two
thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine.
Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish
people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the
temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always
saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence.
In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party
Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections
and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish
parties-- and this against their own nation.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

At times of the bitterest distress, fury against him finally breaks
out, and the plundered and ruined masses begin to defend themselves
against the scourge of God.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(See Isaiah 63)

This game is repeated again and again, and in it the role of the
so-called 'German princes' is just as miserable as that of the Jews
themselves. These lords were really God's punishment for their beloved
peoples and find their parallels only in the various ministers of the
present time.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

They [German princes] made a pact with the devil and landed in hell.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

If we consider how greatly he has sinned against the masses in the
course of the centuries, how he has squeezed and sucked the blood
again and again; if furthermore, we consider how the people gradually
learned to hate him for this, and ended up by regarding his existence
as nothing but punishment of Heaven for the other peoples, we can
understand how hard this shift must be for the Jew.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

First, therefore, he goes about making up to the people for his
previous sins against them. He begins his career as the 'benefactor'
of mankind. Since his new benevolence has a practical foundation, that
the left hand should not know what the right hand giveth; no, whether
he likes it or not, he must reconcile himself to letting as many
people as possible know how deeply he feels the sufferings of the
masses and all the sacrifices that he himself is making to combat
them.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(The left/right hand paraphrase appears to come from Matthew 6:3)

But even more: all at once the Jew also becomes liberal and begins to
rave about the necessary progress of mankind.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The Jew almost never marries a Christian woman; it is the Christian
who marries a Jewess.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the
living shape of the Jew.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in
wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus
stealing her from her people.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Peoples which bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized,
sin against the will of eternal Providence...
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Providence did not bestow her reward on the victorious sword, but
followed the law of eternal retribution.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 12 The First Period of Development of the
Nationalist Social German Worker's Party

Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change
than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to
the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less
in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism
which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them
forward.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The future of a movement is conditioned by the fanaticism, yes, the
intolerance, with which its adherents uphold it as the sole correct
movement, and push it past other formations of a similar sort.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

...absolute intolerance also provides long growth.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this
world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which,
fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its
will against all others.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations
for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient
world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for
its own doctrine.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

No more than a famous master can be replaced and another take over the
completion of the half-finished painting he has left behind can the
great poet and thinker, the great statesman and the great soldier, be
replaced. For their activity lies always in the province of art. It is
not mechanically trained but inborn by God's grace.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single struggle
to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the young movement
and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can move mountains.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about
old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and
shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined.
For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German
tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their
heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual
weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist
blackjack.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(The above statement refutes the common impression that Hitler admired
ancient Nordic customs.)

A man who knows a thing, who is aware of a given danger, and sees the
possibility of a remedy with his own eyes, has the duty and
obligation, by God, not to work 'silently,' but to stand up before the
whole public against the evil and for its cure.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 1, Philosophy and Party

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight
for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith
contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his
existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based,
religious-dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking,
ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but
without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave
shock to the foundations of their existence.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Of course, even the general designation 'religious' includes various
basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the
soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being,
etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be for
the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this
individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until
emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of
apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes a
breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious views.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits
sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and
contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 2, The State

We, as Aryans, can conceive of the state only as the living organism
of a nationality which not only assures the preservation of its
nationality, but by the development of its spiritual and ideal
abilities leads it to the highest freedom.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

the task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to
this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high
mission.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

World history is made by minorities when this minority of number
embodies the majority of will and determination.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the
level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the
consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images
of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in
this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes
with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly,
but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents
are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor
little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than
themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring
unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and
hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy,
obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church.
Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is
replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and
continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty
Creator beings such as He Himself created?
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

*For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have
been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes,
hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and
order.*
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is
positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to
keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a
lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest
culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a
sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings
by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in
the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are
trained for intellectual professions.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but
the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 5, Philosophy and Organization

Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar;
it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen
altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith
take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a
doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant
changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the
example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in
part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and
research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one
little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to
the whole body the character of a faith.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 7, The Struggle with the Red Front

I must frankly admit that... I should probably lose all interest in
life and would rather not be a German at all. But since, thank the
Lord, this cannot be done, we have no need to be surprised that the
health, unspoiled people avoid 'bourgeois mass meetings' as the devil
holy water.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

This, it may be that centuries, dissatisfied with the form of their
religious life, yearn for a renewal, and that from this psychic urge
dozens and more men arise who on the basis of their insight and their
knowledge believe themselves as prophets of a new doctrine, or at
least as warriors against an existing one.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The main fighter for the DSP [*Deutsch-Sozialistische Partei* or
German Socialist Party], as I have said, was Julius Streicher, then a
teacher in Nuremberg. At first he, too, had a holy conviction of the
mission and the future of his movement.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

*Great, truly world-shaking revolutions of a spiritual nature are not
even conceivable and realizable except as the titanic struggles of
individual formations, never as enterprises of coalitions.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 10, Federalism as a Mask

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
his own denomination, of making *people stop just talking
superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not
let God's word be desecrated.* For God's will gave men their form,
their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is
declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], *the most
devout Protestant* could sit beside *the most devout Catholic,*
without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious
convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against
the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them
mutually to respect and esteem one another.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 13, German Alliance Policy After the War

... the world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a
matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free...
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

If the German nation wants to end a state of affairs that threatens
its extermination in Europe, it must not fall into the error of the
pre-War period and make enemies of God and the world; it must
recognize the most dangerous enemy and strike at him with all its
concentrated power. And if this victory is obtained through sacrifices
elsewhere, the coming generations of our people will not condemn us.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last
newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising
pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this
one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor
patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the
smallest boy into the burning plea: '*Almighty God, bless our arms
when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now
whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'
-Adolf Hitler's prayer (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 14, Eastern Orientation or Eastern Policy

...we National Socialists must hold unflinchingly to our aim in
foreign policy, namely *to secure for the German people the land and
soil to which they are entitles on this earth.* And this action is the
only one which, before God and or German posterity, would make any
sacrifice of blood seem justified: before God, since we have been put
on this earth with the mission of eternal struggle for our daily
bread...
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

And so he [the Jew] advances on his fatal road until another force
comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the
heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war
aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary
idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of
this international serpent...
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

*The fight against Jewish world Bolshevization requires a clear
attitude toward Soviet Russia. You cannot drive out the Devil with
Beelzebub.*
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(devils through Beelzebub comes from Luke 11:15-19)

Never forget that the most sacred right on this earth is a man's right
to have earth to till with his own hands, and the most sacred
sacrifice the blood that a man sheds for this earth.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(till the ground: see Genesis 3:23)

Volume 2, Chapter 15, The Right of Emergency Defense

Viewing all this from a higher vantage-point, we can speak of one
single piece of good fortune in all this misery, which is that, though
men can be befuddled, the heavens cannot be bribed.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

But in the great hour Heaven sent the German people a great man, Herr
von Cuno.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hitler's Henchmen

God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and
unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save
Germany.
-Hermann Goering

I swear before God this holy oath, that I shall give absolute
confidence to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people.
-Heinrich Himmler (reminding his hearers about the oath taken by all
SS men as well as by the military forces)

(The mass murderer Himmler was brought up as a devout Catholic, like
young Hitler, and he was careful to attend mass regularly.)

You *Einsatztruppen* (task forces) are called upon to fulfill a
repulsive duty. But you are soldiers who have to carry out every order
unconditionally. You have a responsibility before God and Hitler for
everything that is happening. I myself hate this bloody business and I
have been moved to the depths of my soul. But I am obeying the highest
law by doing my duty. Man must defend himself against bedbugs and
rats-- against vermin.
-Heinrich Himmler (in a speech to the SS guards)

Julius Streicher, the ninth child of a Roman Catholic primary school
teacher, also became a school teacher in Nuremberg. When Hitler got
released from prison in December 1924, Streicher hailed Hitler's
return to politics as a "gift of God," a judgement the Fuehrer never
forgot. Streicher held an enthusiam about allegations that the Jews
murdered non-Jews in order to obtain blood for the feast of Passover.
He charged that Jews hated Christianity and mankind in general.
Streicher went to grotesque lengths in his attacks on Jews claiming
the discovery that "Christ was not a Jew but an Aryan."

If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish
blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way-- the
extermination of that people whose father is the devil...
-Julius Streicher (in an article in the newspaper *Der Stu:mer*)

Only the Jews, he shouted, had remained victorious after the dreadful
days of World War I. These were the people, he charged, of whom Christ
said, "Its father is the devil."
-Julius Streicher

(See John 8:44, for Christ's accusation of father the devil)

Germans must fight Jews, that organized body of world criminals
against whom Christ, the greatest anti-Semite of all time, had fought.
-Julius Streicher

Now it goes to God!
-Julius Streicher (as he mounted the gallows platform to his death)

Purim Fest, 1946.
-Julius Streicher (his last words before his hanging)

(Purim describes a Jewish holiday, celebrated in the spring to
commemorate the hanging of Haman, biblical oppressor of the Jews.)

No matter what human beings do I shall some day stand before the
judgement seat of the Eternal. I shall answer to Him, and I know he
will judge me innocent.
-Rudolf Hess (in a statement to the Nuremberg Tribunal)

The pious Catholic parents of Joseph Goebbels raised him and his two
brothers in that faith. He spoke of Hitler as "either Christ or St.
John." "Hitler, I love you!" he wrote in his diary.

A Jew is for me an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see
one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to
prove that scientifically-- it is a fact.
-Joseph Goebbels (in his attempt to win the eternal gratitude of
Hitler)

May God save Germany!
-Joachim Ribbentrop (his last words before his hanging)

In his Nuremberg cell, Rudolf Hoess told psychologist G.M. Gilbert how
he got brought up in a rigorous Catholic tradition:

My father was really a bigot. He was very strict and fanatical. I
learned that my father took a religious oath at the time of the birth
of my younger sister, dedicating me to God and the priesthood, and
after that leading a Joseph married life [celibacy]. He directed my
entire youthful education toward the goal of making me a priest. I had
to pray and go to church endlessly, do penance over the slightest
misdeed-- praying as punishment for any little unkindness to my
sister, or something like that.
When asked if his father ever beat him, Hoess replied that he was only
punished by prayer. "The thing that made me so stubborn and probably
made me later on cut off from people was his way of making me feel
that I had wronged him personally, and that, since I was spiritually a
minor, he was responsible to God for my sins.

NOTES:

Martin Bormann stood as one of the few top Nazis who rejected
Christianity. At Hitler's round table, Bormann noted that the Fuehrer
did not want to pursue a campaign against the churches. Only in secret
did Bormann hold a grudge against the churches. He carefully avoided
the rouse of suspicion of the Fuehrer. If he could not destroy the
churches, he could at least demand that his subordinates pay little
attention to them.

Alfred Rosenberg stands as the major reason why so many American
Christians think Nazism represented Nordic pagan beliefs instead of
Nazi Christianity. Hitler chose Rosenberg to create a 'religion of the
Blood' knowing that any form of propaganda could prove useful.
However, Hitler also attempted to establish a Reich Christian Church
for the future of Germany. Hitler, himself, did not believe in pagan
cults. Rosenberg charged that the true picture of Jesus had been
distorted by fanatics like Matthew, by materialistic rabbis like Paul,
by African jurists like Tertullian, and the mongrel half-breeds like
St. Augustine. The real Christ, wrote Rosenberg, was an Amorite
Nordic, aggressive, courageous, "a man of true Nordic character," a
revolutionary who opposed the Jewish and Roman systems with sword in
hand, bringing not peace but war (see Matthew 10:34-37). Rosenberg
later went on to say that he favored a "positive Christianity," which
would purify the Nordic race, re-establish the old pagan virtues, and
substitute the fiery spirit of the hero for the crucifixion.
angelicusrex
2003-11-29 08:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Actually, we can't take Mein Kampf any more seriously than the Bible. It was
written as a self congratulatory propaganda piece. Though Hitler dealt with
the churches, he hated them. He is documented as saying that if he had his
way they would be swept off the earth. And he was going to make Germany, not
into a godless atheistic state, but rather one based on Norse and other old
pagan gods. He and many of his followers were occultists and followers of
Nietzsche, who of course proclaimed that: God Is Dead. Nietzsche was a
philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of mankind was to
create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods over a world of
mindless slaves. The Nazis took this to heart. They began to develop a
formal set of rituals and rites that was a travesty of religion. It is also
evident from the quotes you took from Mein Kampf that Hitler was a
megalomaniac who cared more for pomp and power than God, his "paraphrase" of
Micah was typical of his using both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament
against those he was going to destroy.

Many good and worthy Christian people fought and opposed Hitler on all
fronts. As well as the God-Emperor Hirohito. Many good people took Jews into
their homes and saved as many lives as they could from that terror. Oddly no
one ever hears about how atheists or Muslims saved any Jews or opposed
Hitler. Perhaps they did. I do not know. What I do know is that everything
in this particular group turns anti-Christian very quickly.

Hitler believed in god all right, in HIMSELF as God over all. Don't confuse
this with traditional or even heretical Christianity. It is more like the
Roman ideal.

Saint

"Melleagris Gallopavo" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
message: Stuff about Hitler...
Michelle Malkin
2003-11-29 08:52:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:06:01 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
Actually, we can't take Mein Kampf any more seriously than the Bible. It was
written as a self congratulatory propaganda piece. Though Hitler dealt with
the churches, he hated them. He is documented as saying that if he had his
way they would be swept off the earth. And he was going to make Germany, not
into a godless atheistic state, but rather one based on Norse and other old
pagan gods. He and many of his followers were occultists and followers of
Nietzsche, who of course proclaimed that: God Is Dead. Nietzsche was a
philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of mankind was to
create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods over a world of
mindless slaves. The Nazis took this to heart. They began to develop a
formal set of rituals and rites that was a travesty of religion. It is also
evident from the quotes you took from Mein Kampf that Hitler was a
megalomaniac who cared more for pomp and power than God, his "paraphrase" of
Micah was typical of his using both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament
against those he was going to destroy.
Please provide source quotes to back up what you write.Without this,
you are merely making unproven asertions.
Post by angelicusrex
Many good and worthy Christian people fought and opposed Hitler on all
fronts. As well as the God-Emperor Hirohito. Many good people took Jews into
their homes and saved as many lives as they could from that terror. Oddly no
one ever hears about how atheists or Muslims saved any Jews or opposed
Hitler. Perhaps they did. I do not know. What I do know is that everything
in this particular group turns anti-Christian very quickly.
Hitler believed in god all right, in HIMSELF as God over all. Don't confuse
this with traditional or even heretical Christianity. It is more like the
Roman ideal.
Saint
message: Stuff about Hitler...
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Hands that work are better than mouths that pray -
Robert Ingersoll
****************************************************
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-12-01 03:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michelle Malkin
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:06:01 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
Actually, we can't take Mein Kampf any more seriously than the Bible. It was
written as a self congratulatory propaganda piece. Though Hitler dealt with
the churches, he hated them. He is documented as saying that if he had his
way they would be swept off the earth. And he was going to make Germany, not
into a godless atheistic state, but rather one based on Norse and other old
pagan gods. He and many of his followers were occultists and followers of
Nietzsche, who of course proclaimed that: God Is Dead. Nietzsche was a
philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of mankind was to
create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods over a world of
mindless slaves. The Nazis took this to heart. They began to develop a
formal set of rituals and rites that was a travesty of religion. It is also
evident from the quotes you took from Mein Kampf that Hitler was a
megalomaniac who cared more for pomp and power than God, his "paraphrase" of
Micah was typical of his using both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament
against those he was going to destroy.
Please provide source quotes to back up what you write.
He will not, because he can't.
Post by Michelle Malkin
Without this, you are merely making unproven asertions.
angelicusrex
2003-12-01 05:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Read the book: "Explaining Hitler" by Ron Rosenbaum. Put out by Harper.
And then do me a favor and fuck off.

Saint
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Post by Michelle Malkin
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:06:01 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
Actually, we can't take Mein Kampf any more seriously than the Bible. It was
written as a self congratulatory propaganda piece. Though Hitler dealt with
the churches, he hated them. He is documented as saying that if he had his
way they would be swept off the earth. And he was going to make Germany, not
into a godless atheistic state, but rather one based on Norse and other old
pagan gods. He and many of his followers were occultists and followers of
Nietzsche, who of course proclaimed that: God Is Dead. Nietzsche was a
philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of mankind was to
create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods over a world of
mindless slaves. The Nazis took this to heart. They began to develop a
formal set of rituals and rites that was a travesty of religion. It is also
evident from the quotes you took from Mein Kampf that Hitler was a
megalomaniac who cared more for pomp and power than God, his "paraphrase" of
Micah was typical of his using both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament
against those he was going to destroy.
Please provide source quotes to back up what you write.
He will not, because he can't.
Post by Michelle Malkin
Without this, you are merely making unproven asertions.
Hector Plasmic
2003-12-01 18:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Read the book: "Explaining Hitler" by Ron Rosenbaum.
From a review of that book available at
http://www.samizdat.com/rinkreview14.html:

"Would so many people care about Hitler and his motives if he were
head of Uganda or Cambodia instead of Germany? I think not, because
in our Euro-centric racism, we expect horrors to emerge from hearts of
darkness everywhere. But it is particularly upsetting when one of the
most culturally sophisticated countries in the world exhibits a
barbarism that the culture masks, and it upsets our carefully nurtured
myths of the civilizing influence of Christianity to realize that
Hitler was a practicing Christian, a putative believer in the Ten
Commandments, and simultaneously an architect of genocide."

Still, thanks for the pointer -- it actually sounds like an
interesting book, more because of the side issues it apparently raises
than because of the title. I'll pick it up some time.
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-12-01 03:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Nietzsche was a philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of
mankind was to create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods
over a world of mindless slaves.
You just described the Christian God.
angelicusrex
2003-12-01 05:05:04 UTC
Permalink
"Melleagris Gallopavo"
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
You just described the Christian God.
Fuck off.
JTEM
2003-12-01 05:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
"Melleagris Gallopavo"
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
You just described the Christian God.
Fuck off.
Now you've described Christianity.
georgann
2003-12-01 13:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Nietzsche was a philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of
mankind was to create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods
over a world of mindless slaves.
You just described the Christian God.
georgann, Teflon/Bulova apologist wrote:

If you're gonna offer predictions of some future race of Supermen becoming
gods, that clearly doesn't sound like the words of a philosopher but of a
wrong-way prophet.

OTOH since Nietzsche also claimed God was dead, that makes him also not a
atheist but a loony theist. RE: in order for God to "be dead" He would have
had to first exist.

Can Nietzsche be nominated for The Loony Theist of the Year award?

--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»

All your prophecy are belong to Christ!

(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
AngryJohn
2003-12-01 23:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Nietzsche was a philosopher who believed the next step in the evolution of
mankind was to create a race of Supermen who were their own gods, and gods
over a world of mindless slaves.
You just described the Christian God.
If you're gonna offer predictions of some future race of Supermen becoming
gods, that clearly doesn't sound like the words of a philosopher but of a
wrong-way prophet.
OTOH since Nietzsche also claimed God was dead, that makes him also not a
atheist but a loony theist. RE: in order for God to "be dead" He would have
had to first exist.
Can Nietzsche be nominated for The Loony Theist of the Year award?
Loont theists cannot nominate loony theists, too circular.
aa#2106

Remove Belief to reply
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-12-01 03:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Can you provide any evidence of a global flood
as described according to the Bible?
Sure, turk.
Well, we are waiting. Where is your evidence?
Jos Flachs
2003-12-01 11:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Can you provide any evidence of a global flood
as described according to the Bible?
Sure, turk.
Well, we are waiting. Where is your evidence?
Got a sleeping bag and rations with you? Download a good book. War and
Peace, or the Bello Gallico. For while you wait... might take a bit.
People's Commissar
2003-11-28 22:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Zeus never existed either :-D. Religion is a lot of things aside from
"actual fact."

See http://www.geocities.com/go_darkness/god-humans-tod.html
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed. Christianity is based on a work of fiction -
altered, expanded, corrupted, etc. The Paulinian description of the
spread of Christianity in the 1st cent. AD. was written c. 140 AD - it
is complete fiction. There is no evidence that Christianity existed in
the 1st cent AD - because it didn't!
Christianity as we know it today stems primarily from the machinations
of the Roman Emperor Constantine early in the 4th cent AD. It was him
who ordered the bible to be compiled. All the property and sacred texts
of the numerous Christian sects that existed at the time was given to
the Catholic Church. Eusebius, a Catholic scholar, was commissioned to
produce 50 copies of the bible for distribution throughout the churches
of Constantinople, Constantine's capital. Constantine himself was NOT A
CHRISTIAN!
The big question, the question in my mind, is - who was the author who
invented the character Jesus?
I, personally, have no complaints about the moral teachings of those
parts of the gospel story that I think were in the original - but I do
object, most strongly, to much of the later additional material,
insertions, corruptions, etc., that other hands managed to get accepted
as "inspired".
ATT
2003-11-29 02:37:42 UTC
Permalink
So, OK, then don't practice Christianity. Fine with me...
Baruch
2003-11-29 19:55:25 UTC
Permalink
OK. Let's go with that for a minute - Jesus never existed. The entire
story was made up, and the whole thing we're doing now is the result of a
really successful Public Relations scam.

Does that make Jesus, or the story of Jesus, any less real? It does not.
It makes the story less physical - it makes the physicality of the story
nonexistent. Fine. Many things exist, that are not physical. Emotion is
an example; thought another. The fact that something is not physical, does
not mean that the thing doesn't exist at all.

I think we get so bogged down in the details of the Jesus story, whether he
really was born in Bethlehem in a stable, whether he was God, whether he
performed all the miracles claimed of him, in the correct order, that we
overlook something vital. What was he *doing* here in the first place? You
can bet he didn'g come here to do a few magic tricks for people, and then
get himself hammered to a tree... even in fiction that doesn't make a whole
lot of sense. What is the point of creating a fictitious character who
comes here, does magic, and gets crucified?

Behind the story, whether it ever took place in the physical world, is a
message, and it is that message that has relevance regardless of the
physical facts. As long as you continue to focus on the physical issues,
you will miss the story completely. And it's a pretty nice story, if you
can get past people getting nails driven through their flesh.

True, much of this story is terribly garbled, with all the church people
adding their two cents worth in over time. The Good News somehow went from
"God loves you" to "You're all going to hell", and to me that isn't good
news. But you still can find a story of love and tenderness, forgiveness
and healing, where someone cared enough about the poor and disempowered to
hang out with them and to try to comfort them. He lost his life doing that,
if the story has physical reality. If not, it's still a story about someone
who'd be willing to do exactly that - lose his life - to bring healing and
comfort to hurting people.

How bad is that? It only gets bad when people get all worked up on the
physical details, how Jesus must have done this, or couldn't possibly have
done that, and then it gets to be so important that you wind up killing for
the prince of peace. Come on...

So who cares if Jesus, the physical human being, never existed? Does this
story mean anything without it? Old Yeller never existed, either, and I
still shed a tear when they shot that poor dog... the story meant something
to me - canine heroism, loyalty, love, etc.

Old Yeller didn't exist either. And that's OK.
angelicusrex
2003-11-29 21:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Old Yeller exists in every good and loyal dog we have ever known.
Jesus exists in every heroic defender of the downtrodden ever to grace this
world with his or her presence.
Symbolism may have more reality for us than physical things.

I was recently informed by You Know Who, that many, many men who were named
after Joshua, the first Savior/Leader of the Hebrews, felt they had to
dedicate their lives to the same things. And often it got them stoned or
nailed to trees. And many laid down their lives just for that reason. Until
finally it became a "reality" that the Spirit of God enters men to bring us
all some relief from the suffering and evil we cause one another.

Did you read the one from the guy who thought Old Yeller was a geyser!? That
was funny! You want a story? "Old Faithful" is only faithful because they
pour about an ounce of liquid soap into the hole. Approx five minutes
later...Whoosh! Apparently the soap causes the geyser to explode in a
steaming rush...Talk about a public relations scam! Is nothing sacred?

Saint
Post by Baruch
OK. Let's go with that for a minute - Jesus never existed. The entire
story was made up, and the whole thing we're doing now is the result of a
really successful Public Relations scam.
Does that make Jesus, or the story of Jesus, any less real? It does not.
It makes the story less physical - it makes the physicality of the story
nonexistent. Fine. Many things exist, that are not physical. Emotion is
an example; thought another. The fact that something is not physical, does
not mean that the thing doesn't exist at all.
I think we get so bogged down in the details of the Jesus story, whether he
really was born in Bethlehem in a stable, whether he was God, whether he
performed all the miracles claimed of him, in the correct order, that we
overlook something vital. What was he *doing* here in the first place?
You
Post by Baruch
can bet he didn'g come here to do a few magic tricks for people, and then
get himself hammered to a tree... even in fiction that doesn't make a whole
lot of sense. What is the point of creating a fictitious character who
comes here, does magic, and gets crucified?
Behind the story, whether it ever took place in the physical world, is a
message, and it is that message that has relevance regardless of the
physical facts. As long as you continue to focus on the physical issues,
you will miss the story completely. And it's a pretty nice story, if you
can get past people getting nails driven through their flesh.
True, much of this story is terribly garbled, with all the church people
adding their two cents worth in over time. The Good News somehow went from
"God loves you" to "You're all going to hell", and to me that isn't good
news. But you still can find a story of love and tenderness, forgiveness
and healing, where someone cared enough about the poor and disempowered to
hang out with them and to try to comfort them. He lost his life doing that,
if the story has physical reality. If not, it's still a story about someone
who'd be willing to do exactly that - lose his life - to bring healing and
comfort to hurting people.
How bad is that? It only gets bad when people get all worked up on the
physical details, how Jesus must have done this, or couldn't possibly have
done that, and then it gets to be so important that you wind up killing for
the prince of peace. Come on...
So who cares if Jesus, the physical human being, never existed? Does this
story mean anything without it? Old Yeller never existed, either, and I
still shed a tear when they shot that poor dog... the story meant something
to me - canine heroism, loyalty, love, etc.
Old Yeller didn't exist either. And that's OK.
Constance Vigilant
2003-11-29 22:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Old Yeller exists in every good and loyal dog we have ever known.
Jesus exists in every heroic defender of the downtrodden ever to grace this
world with his or her presence.
Symbolism may have more reality for us than physical things.
I was recently informed by You Know Who, that many, many men who were named
after Joshua, the first Savior/Leader of the Hebrews, felt they had to
dedicate their lives to the same things. And often it got them stoned or
nailed to trees. And many laid down their lives just for that reason. Until
finally it became a "reality" that the Spirit of God enters men to bring us
all some relief from the suffering and evil we cause one another.
Did you read the one from the guy who thought Old Yeller was a geyser!? That
was funny! You want a story? "Old Faithful" is only faithful because they
pour about an ounce of liquid soap into the hole. Approx five minutes
later...Whoosh! Apparently the soap causes the geyser to explode in a
steaming rush...Talk about a public relations scam! Is nothing sacred?
Saint
Cleanliness is next to Goldiness

In Love,
Constance Vigilant
zayton
2003-11-29 23:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Old Yeller exists in every good and loyal dog we have ever known.
Jesus exists in every heroic defender of the downtrodden ever to grace this
world with his or her presence.
Symbolism may have more reality for us than physical things.
Stop that! You're not allowed to make sense. It just confuses the whole
order of the universe.

Joe
Post by angelicusrex
I was recently informed by You Know Who, that many, many men who were named
after Joshua, the first Savior/Leader of the Hebrews, felt they had to
dedicate their lives to the same things. And often it got them stoned or
nailed to trees. And many laid down their lives just for that reason. Until
finally it became a "reality" that the Spirit of God enters men to bring us
all some relief from the suffering and evil we cause one another.
Did you read the one from the guy who thought Old Yeller was a geyser!? That
was funny! You want a story? "Old Faithful" is only faithful because they
pour about an ounce of liquid soap into the hole. Approx five minutes
later...Whoosh! Apparently the soap causes the geyser to explode in a
steaming rush...Talk about a public relations scam! Is nothing sacred?
Saint
Post by Baruch
OK. Let's go with that for a minute - Jesus never existed. The entire
story was made up, and the whole thing we're doing now is the result of a
really successful Public Relations scam.
Does that make Jesus, or the story of Jesus, any less real? It does not.
It makes the story less physical - it makes the physicality of the story
nonexistent. Fine. Many things exist, that are not physical. Emotion is
an example; thought another. The fact that something is not physical,
does
Post by Baruch
not mean that the thing doesn't exist at all.
I think we get so bogged down in the details of the Jesus story, whether
he
Post by Baruch
really was born in Bethlehem in a stable, whether he was God, whether he
performed all the miracles claimed of him, in the correct order, that we
overlook something vital. What was he *doing* here in the first place?
You
Post by Baruch
can bet he didn'g come here to do a few magic tricks for people, and then
get himself hammered to a tree... even in fiction that doesn't make a
whole
Post by Baruch
lot of sense. What is the point of creating a fictitious character who
comes here, does magic, and gets crucified?
Behind the story, whether it ever took place in the physical world, is a
message, and it is that message that has relevance regardless of the
physical facts. As long as you continue to focus on the physical issues,
you will miss the story completely. And it's a pretty nice story, if you
can get past people getting nails driven through their flesh.
True, much of this story is terribly garbled, with all the church people
adding their two cents worth in over time. The Good News somehow went
from
Post by Baruch
"God loves you" to "You're all going to hell", and to me that isn't good
news. But you still can find a story of love and tenderness, forgiveness
and healing, where someone cared enough about the poor and disempowered to
hang out with them and to try to comfort them. He lost his life doing
that,
Post by Baruch
if the story has physical reality. If not, it's still a story about
someone
Post by Baruch
who'd be willing to do exactly that - lose his life - to bring healing and
comfort to hurting people.
How bad is that? It only gets bad when people get all worked up on the
physical details, how Jesus must have done this, or couldn't possibly have
done that, and then it gets to be so important that you wind up killing
for
Post by Baruch
the prince of peace. Come on...
So who cares if Jesus, the physical human being, never existed? Does this
story mean anything without it? Old Yeller never existed, either, and I
still shed a tear when they shot that poor dog... the story meant
something
Post by Baruch
to me - canine heroism, loyalty, love, etc.
Old Yeller didn't exist either. And that's OK.
Zsarnok
2003-11-30 03:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Have I told you how much I like your sense of humor?

Zsarnok
Post by zayton
Post by angelicusrex
Old Yeller exists in every good and loyal dog we have ever known.
Jesus exists in every heroic defender of the downtrodden ever to grace
this
Post by angelicusrex
world with his or her presence.
Symbolism may have more reality for us than physical things.
Stop that! You're not allowed to make sense. It just confuses the whole
order of the universe.
Joe
Post by angelicusrex
I was recently informed by You Know Who, that many, many men who were
named
Post by angelicusrex
after Joshua, the first Savior/Leader of the Hebrews, felt they had to
dedicate their lives to the same things. And often it got them stoned or
nailed to trees. And many laid down their lives just for that reason.
Until
Post by angelicusrex
finally it became a "reality" that the Spirit of God enters men to bring
us
Post by angelicusrex
all some relief from the suffering and evil we cause one another.
Did you read the one from the guy who thought Old Yeller was a geyser!?
That
Post by angelicusrex
was funny! You want a story? "Old Faithful" is only faithful because they
pour about an ounce of liquid soap into the hole. Approx five minutes
later...Whoosh! Apparently the soap causes the geyser to explode in a
steaming rush...Talk about a public relations scam! Is nothing sacred?
Saint
Post by Baruch
OK. Let's go with that for a minute - Jesus never existed. The entire
story was made up, and the whole thing we're doing now is the result of
a
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
really successful Public Relations scam.
Does that make Jesus, or the story of Jesus, any less real? It does
not.
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
It makes the story less physical - it makes the physicality of the story
nonexistent. Fine. Many things exist, that are not physical. Emotion
is
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
an example; thought another. The fact that something is not physical,
does
Post by Baruch
not mean that the thing doesn't exist at all.
I think we get so bogged down in the details of the Jesus story, whether
he
Post by Baruch
really was born in Bethlehem in a stable, whether he was God, whether he
performed all the miracles claimed of him, in the correct order, that we
overlook something vital. What was he *doing* here in the first place?
You
Post by Baruch
can bet he didn'g come here to do a few magic tricks for people, and
then
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
get himself hammered to a tree... even in fiction that doesn't make a
whole
Post by Baruch
lot of sense. What is the point of creating a fictitious character who
comes here, does magic, and gets crucified?
Behind the story, whether it ever took place in the physical world, is a
message, and it is that message that has relevance regardless of the
physical facts. As long as you continue to focus on the physical
issues,
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
you will miss the story completely. And it's a pretty nice story, if
you
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
can get past people getting nails driven through their flesh.
True, much of this story is terribly garbled, with all the church people
adding their two cents worth in over time. The Good News somehow went
from
Post by Baruch
"God loves you" to "You're all going to hell", and to me that isn't good
news. But you still can find a story of love and tenderness,
forgiveness
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
and healing, where someone cared enough about the poor and disempowered
to
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
hang out with them and to try to comfort them. He lost his life doing
that,
Post by Baruch
if the story has physical reality. If not, it's still a story about
someone
Post by Baruch
who'd be willing to do exactly that - lose his life - to bring healing
and
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
comfort to hurting people.
How bad is that? It only gets bad when people get all worked up on the
physical details, how Jesus must have done this, or couldn't possibly
have
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
done that, and then it gets to be so important that you wind up killing
for
Post by Baruch
the prince of peace. Come on...
So who cares if Jesus, the physical human being, never existed? Does
this
Post by angelicusrex
Post by Baruch
story mean anything without it? Old Yeller never existed, either, and I
still shed a tear when they shot that poor dog... the story meant
something
Post by Baruch
to me - canine heroism, loyalty, love, etc.
Old Yeller didn't exist either. And that's OK.
JTEM
2003-11-30 09:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
Jesus exists in every heroic defender of the downtrodden
ever to grace this world with his or her presence.
That rules out the Christians...
Melleagris Gallopavo
2003-12-01 03:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by angelicusrex
I was recently informed by You Know Who
IOW, you hear voices in your head that you call "God" and you talk to
these voices. Thanks for clearing that up.
angelicusrex
2003-12-01 05:04:29 UTC
Permalink
"Melleagris Gallopavo"
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Post by angelicusrex
I was recently informed by You Know Who
IOW, you hear voices in your head that you call "God" and you talk to
these voices. Thanks for clearing that up.
Fuck off.
Jos Flachs
2003-12-01 08:46:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:04:29 -0700, "angelicusrex"
Post by angelicusrex
"Melleagris Gallopavo"
Post by Melleagris Gallopavo
Post by angelicusrex
I was recently informed by You Know Who
IOW, you hear voices in your head that you call "God" and you talk to
these voices. Thanks for clearing that up.
Fuck off.
You forgot to add (lovingly, of course): "and die horribly".
stoney
2003-11-30 02:29:36 UTC
Permalink
On 26 Nov 2003 14:09:09 -0800, ***@yahoo.com (Religion
is a Lie), Message ID: <***@posting.google.com>
wrote in alt.atheism;
Post by Religion is a Lie
Jesus never existed.
Stuff it up your arse "Newton Scat."

(flush mindless troll scat)



Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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