Greetings

[Iain M Churches]

Morning K the K

You did not reply to my e-mail about the
"Valve amp basics" text, so presumably it does
not interest you.

I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.
Maybe that's a tactical necessity
if you want to maintain
a popular presence on UKRA:-))

I feel you paid me no compliment in comparing
me to the Irishman, whoever he was.

I am on holiday now - three glorious months.
Don mentioned that he had been to Iceland,
- a country I have never visited. It's incredibly
beautiful. I found out this morning that there
is a company that flies a small ten-seater
propeller aircraft from Malmo in Sweden to
Iceland stopping off for refuelling in Norway.
I am going to book a round-trip for two
if there are any tickets still available this season.

Iain

[Iain M Churches]

Sorry group. I posted this to UKRA in error.
It was supposed to be an e-mail to Keith.

Iain

[Don Pearce]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:22:53 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches
Morning K the K
You did not reply to my e-mail about the
"Valve amp basics" text, so presumably it does
not interest you.
I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.
Maybe that's a tactical necessity
if you want to maintain
a popular presence on UKRA:-))
I feel you paid me no compliment in comparing
me to the Irishman, whoever he was.
I am on holiday now - three glorious months.
Don mentioned that he had been to Iceland,
- a country I have never visited. It's incredibly
beautiful. I found out this morning that there
is a company that flies a small ten-seater
propeller aircraft from Malmo in Sweden to
Iceland stopping off for refuelling in Norway.
I am going to book a round-trip for two
if there are any tickets still available this season.
Iain

While you are there, hire yourself a 4x4 and drive into the interior.
That is where all the really nice looking stuff is. You can do all the
normal tourist stuff like Dettifoss and Sellfoss by bus. Also take a
look at the prices of the holiday homes around the prettier fjords.
The government has banned any further building on environmental
grounds, and they tend to attract a rather "premium" price.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Don Pearce
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:22:53 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches
I am on holiday now - three glorious months.
Don mentioned that he had been to Iceland,
- a country I have never visited. It's incredibly
beautiful. I found out this morning that there
is a company that flies a small ten-seater
propeller aircraft from Malmo in Sweden to
Iceland stopping off for refuelling in Norway.
I am going to book a round-trip for two
if there are any tickets still available this season.
Iain

While you are there, hire yourself a 4x4 and drive into the interior.
That is where all the really nice looking stuff is. You can do all the
normal tourist stuff like Dettifoss and Sellfoss by bus. Also take a
look at the prices of the holiday homes around the prettier fjords.
The government has banned any further building on environmental
grounds, and they tend to attract a rather "premium" price.
d

Thanks Don. I was going to ask you for some tourist tips, anyway,
but did not intend to do it through this NG. Oh well.

This trip includes some sight-seeing from the air. A 4WD excursion
is an excellent idea. Pity I cannot take my own:-)

If the holiday home prices are anything like Norway, one could by
a penthouse at Marble Arch for the same money:-)
I already have a holiday lakeside cottage in Finland, and a pied-a-
terre in Stockholm. That's enough for the time being:-))

I am trying to get through to the travel agent at this very moment.
Ring ring......ring ring.

Iain

[Keith G]

Post by Iain M Churches
Morning K the K

Morning I the I,

OK, I gather you meant this post to go as a direct email to me and have
posted it here in error. I will answer it here in order to reduce any 'loss
of face' and also so you can see my replies (normally private) stand even
when in public, as it were.

Post by Iain M Churches
You did not reply to my e-mail about the
"Valve amp basics" text, so presumably it does
not interest you.

Iain, I have 50 'unread' eems in my inbox at the moment (49 since I
acknowledged yours this morning) which I'll get back to when I can - and
that's with my little *at least two emails every day* Turkish friend away in
business in Japan atm!! Some will be of no importance but many will merit an
acknowledgement of some sort. The post you refer to is actually lost in the
*gawd knows how many* 'read' ones, as I seem to have failed to mark it
'unread' when I answered the first, non-technical half. I'll get back to it
when I can, after I have had the time to find it. (Or send it again if you
have it handy....??)

I'm a bit busy with 'good weather jobs' atm, despite the ludicrous level of
my posting here - bear in mind your emails (especially the 'technical' ones)
take more time to answer than simply flinging summat daft onto this group!!
I cannot undertake to return *any* emails in a given time period. If an
immediate answer *is* required anytime, it will most probably have been
'agreed' by prior agreement or prior understanding!

The content of the email (valvey stuff) *does* interest me, as you know.
However, it is on the limits of my knowledge/understanding and will probably
have me referencing summat on the Net (I don't know yet). You must
understand that 'audio' (to a point) is only my *hobby* and gets fitted in
as and when. It might also help to explain that when I'm posting here I'm
also listening to music (usually) with Swim watching the telly on subtitles,
in the evening!! (Believe it or not, she prefers it like that!!)

Post by Iain M Churches
I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.

Absolutely not - I don't need to get into any 'lines' in ukra.

You *know* my return to ukra was partly in response to a small number of
direct emails that had said the group had all but dried up. You also know
that I have studiously avoided getting into any slanging matches here
despite the incredibly weak efforts of a tiny number of 'farmworkers' here
to provoke me from time to time... ;-)

The fairly recent 'valve and vinyl wars' have all but disappeared (valves
and vinyl won - as your presence in this group attests) and with them any
requirement to 'vigorously defend them' - not that I would bother any more,
as all the 'vinylists' appeared to have fucked off anyway and the few
valveys that did post here *lurk* but don't post any more, from what I
gather. (That and I don't think I could be arsed....)

Post by Iain M Churches
Maybe that's a tactical necessity
if you want to maintain
a popular presence on UKRA:-))

Are you kidding?? Who gives a FF about 'popularity'??

(Apologies if I have given you the impression that I need to be *popular* in
ukra - what, with the 4 or 5 regular posters that remain...!!!???)

Any 'tactics' I may/may not employ on ukra are (as I have said more than
once) are only to try and reduce the acrimony that turned this group into a
cesspit a while back. (I have to balance that with my own wickedness and
sense of fun, so there's bound to be a little slip occasionally!! ;-)

(Failing that, fuck 'em all bar one and he can go fuck himself!! - Know what
I mean?? ;-)

Post by Iain M Churches
I feel you paid me no compliment in comparing
me to the Irishman, whoever he was.

Believe me, there are similarities - Ronnie went head to head with Pinky (ad
nauseam) and got beaten up (ish). You, I'm pleased to say, show no signs of
suffering the same fate - if it helps, I would put you way ahead on points,
as Pinky sems to have run out of steam and is falling back to the usual
stream of invective and insults he uses when he finds he can't win by
arguing 'technicalities'!! ;-)

But, having said that, you need to understand I do *not* disagree with all
that Pinky says, there are many areas where I agree with him entirely -
cables, overpriced/over-rated high end stuff, DVDPs/CDPs and ss amps all
sounding virtually identical etc....

(Thinking on it, it's perhaps Pinky's side of the exchanges that more
reminds me of the Bonnie Ronnie Mack!! :-)

If it helps, I liked BRM - he was a hoot at times and his 'slanging match
abilities' weren't too bad at all, once he had got the hang of it!! :-)

Post by Iain M Churches
I am on holiday now - three glorious months.

Lovely. (I'm *always* on holiday, but I got/get jobs to as well!! :-)

Post by Iain M Churches
Don mentioned that he had been to Iceland,
- a country I have never visited. It's incredibly
beautiful. I found out this morning that there
is a company that flies a small ten-seater
propeller aircraft from Malmo in Sweden to
Iceland stopping off for refuelling in Norway.
I am going to book a round-trip for two
if there are any tickets still available this season.

And very nice too - I wouldn't mind that trip myself!!

Go get on now - this post has been on my sodding screen since I acknowledged
your email earlier with the interruptions I have had *so far* today!! (My
life's not my own when Swims 'working at home'!! ;-)

K the K

[Dave xxxx]

Keith G wrote:

But I snipped it ..because I did !

Post by Iain M Churches
K the K

Great post keith keep them coming lol

some good quotes in there I like this best :-)

"Are you kidding?? Who gives a FF about 'popularity'??"



regards

Dave also not giving a FF

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave xxxx
But I snipped it ..because I did !

Post by Iain M Churches
K the K

Great post keith keep them coming lol
some good quotes in there I like this best :-)
"Are you kidding?? Who gives a FF about 'popularity'??"
regards
Dave also not giving a FF

he did mean "fortissimo" I presume:-))

Iain

[Stewart Pinkerton]

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.

Absolutely not - I don't need to get into any 'lines' in ukra.

To paraphrase the inimitable Bugs Bunny - he don't know you very well,
do he? :-)

Post by Keith G
You *know* my return to ukra was partly in response to a small number of
direct emails that had said the group had all but dried up. You also know
that I have studiously avoided getting into any slanging matches here
despite the incredibly weak efforts of a tiny number of 'farmworkers' here
to provoke me from time to time... ;-)
The fairly recent 'valve and vinyl wars' have all but disappeared (valves
and vinyl won - as your presence in this group attests)

Bollox!

Post by Keith G
and with them any
requirement to 'vigorously defend them' - not that I would bother any more,
as all the 'vinylists' appeared to have fucked off anyway and the few
valveys that did post here *lurk* but don't post any more, from what I
gather. (That and I don't think I could be arsed....)

Post by Iain M Churches
Maybe that's a tactical necessity
if you want to maintain
a popular presence on UKRA:-))

Are you kidding?? Who gives a FF about 'popularity'??

To paraphrase the inimitable Bugs Bunny - he don't know us very well,
do he? :-)

Post by Keith G
(Apologies if I have given you the impression that I need to be *popular* in
ukra - what, with the 4 or 5 regular posters that remain...!!!???)
Any 'tactics' I may/may not employ on ukra are (as I have said more than
once) are only to try and reduce the acrimony that turned this group into a
cesspit a while back. (I have to balance that with my own wickedness and
sense of fun, so there's bound to be a little slip occasionally!! ;-)
(Failing that, fuck 'em all bar one and he can go fuck himself!! - Know what
I mean?? ;-)

Post by Iain M Churches
I feel you paid me no compliment in comparing
me to the Irishman, whoever he was.

Believe me, there are similarities - Ronnie went head to head with Pinky (ad
nauseam) and got beaten up (ish). You, I'm pleased to say, show no signs of
suffering the same fate - if it helps, I would put you way ahead on points,
as Pinky sems to have run out of steam and is falling back to the usual
stream of invective and insults he uses when he finds he can't win by
arguing 'technicalities'!! ;-)
But, having said that, you need to understand I do *not* disagree with all
that Pinky says, there are many areas where I agree with him entirely -
cables, overpriced/over-rated high end stuff, DVDPs/CDPs and ss amps all
sounding virtually identical etc....
(Thinking on it, it's perhaps Pinky's side of the exchanges that more
reminds me of the Bonnie Ronnie Mack!! :-)

Fork in L - time to reassess one's strategy! :-(

[Keith G]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.

Absolutely not - I don't need to get into any 'lines' in ukra.

To paraphrase the inimitable Bugs Bunny - he don't know you very well,
do he? :-)

I'm sure he doesn't really think that, but....

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G
Are you kidding?? Who gives a FF about 'popularity'??

To paraphrase the inimitable Bugs Bunny - he don't know us very well,
do he? :-)

....if he does, then no, he doesn't!! (IYSWIM... ;-)

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G
(Thinking on it, it's perhaps Pinky's side of the exchanges that more
reminds me of the Bonnie Ronnie Mack!! :-)

Fork in L - time to reassess one's strategy! :-(

Probably not - worked well enough with the Bonnie Ronnie and I gather
(somewhere down below) that Iain the Iain's binned you yet again, so why
change a winning formula? :-)

[Stewart Pinkerton]

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G
(Thinking on it, it's perhaps Pinky's side of the exchanges that more
reminds me of the Bonnie Ronnie Mack!! :-)

Fork in L - time to reassess one's strategy! :-(

Probably not - worked well enough with the Bonnie Ronnie and I gather
(somewhere down below) that Iain the Iain's binned you yet again, so why
change a winning formula? :-)

No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying
got under my skin ( I think he's been reading too many Andre Jute
posts), and I knee-jerked several posts which would have benefitted
from rather more thought. Despite our obvious differences, you're one
of the few posters that I'd consider to have his head screwed on
relatively straight, so your comment that you thought Iain was ahead
on points was a bit of a startler! :-(

Ah well, I obviously need a couple of weeks in the sun! :-)

[Dave xxxx]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales
and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to
property overseas is true,

part of the address is

Humikkalantie **** Helsink is one

He is and has been for years by trade an Audio Engineer

This is not someone with a couple of decks and a mixer in
his bed room but someone getting paid to do it as a job.

Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in
December

;-)

regards


Dave
www.davewhitter.myby.co.uk

Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Steam is Fun

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in December
;-)

With the current state of pay in the industry the idea of retiring at 60
is a pipe dream for many. ;-(

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in December
;-)

With the current state of pay in the industry the idea of retiring at 60
is a pipe dream for many. ;-(

I stepped off the treadwheel a long time ago.
People here are well paid, but high standards are expected:-)

Iain

[tony sayer]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in December
;-)

With the current state of pay in the industry the idea of retiring at 60
is a pipe dream for many. ;-(

I stepped off the treadwheel a long time ago.
People here are well paid, but high standards are expected:-)
Iain

What's the point of retiring at 60 only to become "Garden Centre"
fodder?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in December
;-)

With the current state of pay in the industry the idea of retiring at
60 is a pipe dream for many. ;-(

I stepped off the treadwheel a long time ago. People here are well paid,
but high standards are expected:-)

Care to give the expected yearly earnings for what most would consider a
reasonable number of hours? ;-)

Let's say 40 hours a week for 46 weeks of the year?

I can earn what most would regard as decent money, but the hours are just
too much.

And I seriously worry about those in the industry with a young family -
where they'll be lucky to only see the kids one day a week.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Care to give the expected yearly earnings for what most would consider a
reasonable number of hours? ;-)
Let's say 40 hours a week for 46 weeks of the year?
I can earn what most would regard as decent money, but the hours are just
too much.

There are many who work 60-80hrs a week, in staff jobs, and
earn a lot less than others who work 60hrs a month as freelance.

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And I seriously worry about those in the industry with a young family -
where they'll be lucky to only see the kids one day a week.

Yes. That is of concern, and yet there are is shortage of people who want
to enter the industry, at one level or another.


Iain

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Iain M Churches
Yes. That is of concern, and yet there are is shortage of people who want
to enter the industry, at one level or another.

Correction. I meant to write :-
---- and yet there is not shortage of people........

Iain

[Keith G]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,

Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to doubt
Iain, on or offlist.....

[Stewart Pinkerton]

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,

Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to doubt
Iain, on or offlist.....

Really? Even when he claimed to be able within a couple of hours to
check up on anyone's educational or military record? Baron Munchausen
would be proud of him! He pulls this kind of stunt all the time, with
his little 'anecdotes'. I guess having only a couple hours of daylight
for most of the winter does funny things to the brain............

[Dave xxxx]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Really? Even when he claimed to be able within a couple of
hours to
check up on anyone's educational or military record? Baron
Munchausen
would be proud of him! He pulls this kind of stunt all
the time, with
his little 'anecdotes'. I guess having only a couple hours
of daylight
for most of the winter does funny things to the
brain............

Ahh now I see what your getting at, thought it was his
claims of where he lived and his job that was being
questioned.

But if he is making claims like "to be able within a couple
of hours to

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
check up on anyone's educational or military record"

His is telling very big stories, my service records where
wanted, when I took MOD to court, it took ages to find them,
they have storages all over the place, then a request has to
be placed, then they are collected and sent to correct
department for checking then copying, then permission to
release is checked. Took three months.

That was with total cooperation, and the fact they had only
been in storage for five years, some take much longer to
find.

As for getting educational records??? not sure how he can
get them, most peoples records are still on paper and again
stored all over the place, someone going through school and
uni before 1978 is not going to have much on computer, paper
files that by now have been moved from school to education
department and now shipped out to some hole in the ground

As for the days of getting information from a copper off the
PNC them days are over, people use to give a "mate" the
number of a car your wife was seen in, to see who she was
with. Now the double checks means no ones doing that type of
favour anymore

Only case I know of, in recent times of anyone stupid enough
to do that, was a part time special who "checked" the people
she worked with in her normal job at a petrol station

not sure what happen but she got took to court

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Really? Even when he claimed to be able within a couple of hours to
check up on anyone's educational or military record? Baron Munchausen
would be proud of him! He pulls this kind of stunt all the time, with
his little 'anecdotes'. I guess having only a couple hours of daylight
for most of the winter does funny things to the brain............

Ahh now I see what your getting at, thought it was his claims of where he
lived and his job that was being questioned.
But if he is making claims like "to be able within a couple of hours to

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
check up on anyone's educational or military record"

His is telling very big stories, my service records where wanted, when I
took MOD to court, it took ages to find them, they have storages all over
the place, then a request has to be placed, then they are collected and
sent to correct department for checking then copying, then permission to
release is checked. Took three months.
That was with total cooperation, and the fact they had only been in
storage for five years, some take much longer to find.
As for getting educational records??? not sure how he can get them, most
peoples records are still on paper and again stored all over the place,
someone going through school and uni before 1978 is not going to have much
on computer, paper files that by now have been moved from school to
education department and now shipped out to some hole in the ground
As for the days of getting information from a copper off the PNC them days
are over, people use to give a "mate" the number of a car your wife was
seen in, to see who she was with. Now the double checks means no ones
doing that type of favour anymore

I made no such claims. A manager in human
resources working for a major company in the UK
(I think that's what we used to called Personel) told me
that much of his time was spent in checking CV's for job
applicants, and that he could fill in most of
the pertinent details on a CV in "a matter of hours"
He certainly managed to do so on mine. I have the feeling
that many journalists could do this also. All the infor-
mation is there if you know where to look. I have no reason
to doubt that what I was told was the truth

Iain

[Iain M Churches]

When I took MOD to court, it took ages to find them, they have storages all
over the place, then a request has to be placed, then they are collected
and sent to correct department for checking then copying, then permission
to release is checked. Took three months.
That was with total cooperation, and the fact they had only been in
storage for five years, some take much longer to find.

Just a post-script to what I wrote a few mins ago
Having done some checking, I find that it was actually SP who
was going to check the military record of a Major Archer, but
going to the local library and looking through section II of the
Army Lists:-))

Why do I get the feeling that SP is putting up a smokescreen?
Shouldn't he be in Moss Side, or doing the clarinet pitch experiment
(something else about which he said I was lying) Anyone can
try this for themselves, so why on earth would I want to lie about
such a thing??

Regards to all.

Iain

[Iain M Churches]

As for the days of getting information from a copper off the PNC them days
are over, people use to give a "mate" the number of a car your wife was
seen in, to see who she was with. Now the double checks means no ones
doing that type of favour anymore

Why should information such as car registration be secret?

I have never tried it, but I am pretty sure that in all Scandinavian
countries you can send a text message to the vehicle registration
centre, and get the owners details. So if a pretty blonde in a
Mercedes convertible looks across and winks at you at the
traffic lights, you can call her and make a date
before she accelerates away:-))

I have just check the above, by asking directory enquiries for the
details. One simply sends a text message XYZ 123 (or whatever the
registration number might be) to the info service at 16400. The
reply comes back within ten seconds or so, and costs 1.35 Euro.

I remember that when I lived in the UK, anyone could drive
with anyone else's licence (no photo) and to prove ownership
of a vehicle one had to produce the log book at a police station
within five days. It's not that long ago, but it sounds like the
Dark Ages:-)

In Norway, Denmark, Sweden or Finland, the policeman
addresses you by name when you wind down the window:-)

Iain

[Jim Lesurf]

In Norway, Denmark, Sweden or Finland, the policeman addresses you by
name when you wind down the window:-)

They do that in the UK as well. They call you "Sir". :-)

Slainte,

Jim

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,

Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to
doubt Iain, on or offlist.....

Those who also follow RAT will have noticed that SP has shouted
"Lies, Lies Lies" at many of the members of that group.
These people happen to form the nucleus whose
knowledge and expertise is highly regarded by the rest of us.

So, in that respect, I am in very good company indeed:-)))

As I mentioned earlier, when SP stated that he did not believe that
I had every worked for Decca, RCA or any other record company,
I took the trouble to post for his benefit a list of recordings which he
could have bought, checked the credits, listened to, and enjoyed.
He chose not to do this, but clap his hands over his ears, shut his
eyes, stamp his feet and shout "Lies Lies Lies"

I don't give a tinker's silver sixpence for his opinion of my work.
As long as the clients, producers artists, reviewers and listeners
are happy, then so am I.

I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

Regards to All,

Iain

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:13:12 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,

Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to
doubt Iain, on or offlist.....

Those who also follow RAT will have noticed that SP has shouted
"Lies, Lies Lies" at many of the members of that group.
These people happen to form the nucleus whose
knowledge and expertise is highly regarded by the rest of us.

Another typical Churches lie - I have only so accused him and Andre
Jute, who is probably the most psychotic pathological liar ever to
post to RAT. Mind you, our third-world refugee Churches has clearty
been taking lessons from the sad Jute sack.................

OTOH, I have of course called 'bullshit' at many members of RAT, since
those who claim that tube amps are in any way superior in *fidelity*
terms to good SS amps, are indeed full of it.

Post by Iain M Churches
So, in that respect, I am in very good company indeed:-)))
As I mentioned earlier, when SP stated that he did not believe that
I had every worked for Decca, RCA or any other record company,
I took the trouble to post for his benefit a list of recordings which he
could have bought, checked the credits, listened to, and enjoyed.
He chose not to do this, but clap his hands over his ears, shut his
eyes, stamp his feet and shout "Lies Lies Lies"

You're a damn liar, as my posting record will show that I didn't do
any such thing.

Post by Iain M Churches
I don't give a tinker's silver sixpence for his opinion of my work.
As long as the clients, producers artists, reviewers and listeners
are happy, then so am I.

You can fool all of the people for some of the time.......... :-)

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

I don't believe in censorship, but I find it fascinating that it's
*always* the 'subjectivists' who want the opposition silenced. It
leads one inevitably to the conclusion that they don't have a leg to
stand on in a substantive debate.

Anyway, you can lie your head off as much as you like for the next two
weeks, as I'm off to Corfu for some relaxation in the sunshine, with
good food and convivial company.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:13:12 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,

Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to
doubt Iain, on or offlist.....

Those who also follow RAT will have noticed that SP has shouted
"Lies, Lies Lies" at many of the members of that group.
These people happen to form the nucleus whose
knowledge and expertise is highly regarded by the rest of us.

Another typical Churches lie - I have only so accused him and Andre
Jute, who is probably the most psychotic pathological liar ever to
post to RAT. Mind you, our third-world refugee Churches has clearty
been taking lessons from the sad Jute sack.................

Doi you write from a template? You seem to use the same expletives,
and the term "third world refugee" for people living as far apart as
Australia, France and Scandinavia:-)

Anyone can check the facts.
Quite a while ago, I posted a question about psu ripple on RAT.
Andre was kind enought to offer me a spreadsheet which he had
written in Excel, to help me with my calculations. At that time,
my internet connection was a slow one, so it was not possible
to send it as an e-mail attachment, so AJ posted it to me by
snail mail. He would not accept any recompense for
his time or the postage. I was grateful for his help.
I wonder, would you have helped anyone in this way?

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
OTOH, I have of course called 'bullshit' at many members of RAT, since
those who claim that tube amps are in any way superior in *fidelity*
terms to good SS amps, are indeed full of it.

You have been asked on several occasions to leave the group (RAT),
added to which, you are also denied access to closed groups, even
as a guest. Each must draw his/her own conclusions, as to why
this might be.

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Iain M Churches
As I mentioned earlier, when SP stated that he did not believe that
I had every worked for Decca, RCA or any other record company,
I took the trouble to post for his benefit a list of recordings which he
could have bought, checked the credits, listened to, and enjoyed.
He chose not to do this, but clap his hands over his ears, shut his
eyes, stamp his feet and shout "Lies Lies Lies"

You're a damn liar, as my posting record will show that I didn't do
any such thing.

Sorry SP. That's the truth. Tell me the recordings which you
bought.

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Iain M Churches
I don't give a tinker's silver sixpence for his opinion of my work.
As long as the clients, producers artists, reviewers and listeners
are happy, then so am I.

You can fool all of the people for some of the time.......... :-)

I have never needed to fool anyone, and forty years is a "long time"
not "some of the time". and they keep coming back for more:-)

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

I don't believe in censorship, but I find it fascinating that it's
*always* the 'subjectivists' who want the opposition silenced. It
leads one inevitably to the conclusion that they don't have a leg to
stand on in a substantive debate.

No, I am asking you to censure me, so that I do not have to reply
to your constant attacks on myself and others. It's getting terribly
boring:-(((

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Anyway, you can lie your head off as much as you like for the next two
weeks, as I'm off to Corfu for some relaxation in the sunshine, with
good food and convivial company.

Have a wonderful holiday:-)

Cordially,

Iain

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:04:07 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:13:12 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,

Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to
doubt Iain, on or offlist.....

Those who also follow RAT will have noticed that SP has shouted
"Lies, Lies Lies" at many of the members of that group.
These people happen to form the nucleus whose
knowledge and expertise is highly regarded by the rest of us.

Another typical Churches lie - I have only so accused him and Andre
Jute, who is probably the most psychotic pathological liar ever to
post to RAT. Mind you, our third-world refugee Churches has clearty
been taking lessons from the sad Jute sack.................

Doi you write from a template? You seem to use the same expletives,
and the term "third world refugee" for people living as far apart as
Australia, France and Scandinavia:-)

Another pathetic lie, I would not use such a term for France, I
reserve other expletives for Frankie da Frog. As for Australia and
Finland, of course...............................

Post by Iain M Churches
Anyone can check the facts.
Quite a while ago, I posted a question about psu ripple on RAT.
Andre was kind enought to offer me a spreadsheet which he had
written in Excel, to help me with my calculations. At that time,
my internet connection was a slow one, so it was not possible
to send it as an e-mail attachment, so AJ posted it to me by
snail mail. He would not accept any recompense for
his time or the postage. I was grateful for his help.
I wonder, would you have helped anyone in this way?

I have done, as certain RAT posters are aware.

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
OTOH, I have of course called 'bullshit' at many members of RAT, since
those who claim that tube amps are in any way superior in *fidelity*
terms to good SS amps, are indeed full of it.

You have been asked on several occasions to leave the group (RAT),

Only by those who can't handle the truth...........

Post by Iain M Churches
added to which, you are also denied access to closed groups, even
as a guest. Each must draw his/her own conclusions, as to why
this might be.

Utter bullshit. I have never been denied access to *any* newsgroup.
This is just another of your pathetic lies. Furthermore, even if I
*had* been so denied, *you* would not be aware of it. Your delusions
of grandeur are so easily exposed, every time you try this kind of
bullshit.

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Iain M Churches
As I mentioned earlier, when SP stated that he did not believe that
I had every worked for Decca, RCA or any other record company,
I took the trouble to post for his benefit a list of recordings which he
could have bought, checked the credits, listened to, and enjoyed.
He chose not to do this, but clap his hands over his ears, shut his
eyes, stamp his feet and shout "Lies Lies Lies"

You're a damn liar, as my posting record will show that I didn't do
any such thing.

Sorry SP. That's the truth. Tell me the recordings which you
bought.

No, it's a lie, as I've never challenged your work record at Decca.
OTOH, why on earth would I want to buy any of these recordings?

[Chris Morriss]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Another pathetic lie, I would not use such a term for France, I
reserve other expletives for Frankie da Frog. As for Australia and
Finland, of course...............................

I'd be a bit careful there Stewart. In my previous job I had to travel
fairly often between Glasgow airport and East Kilbride. I've seen
nothing else in Europe quite so third-world as some of the places you
pass through on that trip.

(I thought you'd flown off to Corfu?)

[Keith G]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Iain M Churches
As I mentioned earlier, when SP stated that he did not believe that
I had every worked for Decca, RCA or any other record company,
I took the trouble to post for his benefit a list of recordings which he
could have bought, checked the credits, listened to, and enjoyed.
He chose not to do this, but clap his hands over his ears, shut his
eyes, stamp his feet and shout "Lies Lies Lies"

You're a damn liar, as my posting record will show that I didn't do
any such thing.

Give it a rest FFS....

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Anyway, you can lie your head off as much as you like for the next two
weeks, as I'm off to Corfu for some relaxation in the sunshine, with
good food and convivial company.

...and go and have a good holiday. (We *all* need the break!)

Btw, delete any previous remarks I might have made about missing the best of
the UK weather - a) I had my months mixed up and thought we were already in
july and b) the weather here today is more like a fekkin' Siberian winter
than a British summer....

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Keith G
Btw, delete any previous remarks I might have made about missing the best
of the UK weather - a) I had my months mixed up and thought we were
already in july and b) the weather here today is more like a fekkin'
Siberian winter than a British summer....

It's been 23 degrees here, and looks set to continue :-))

Iain

[Signal]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
I don't believe in censorship, but I find it fascinating that it's
*always* the 'subjectivists' who want the opposition silenced.

Naah.. most 'subjectivist listeners' (aka consumers) will just want to
enjoy their hobby without an interfering neurotic/geek/usenset-stalker
breathing down their neck... You would get the same reaction if you
walked up to a table of diners in a restaurant who are having a
perfectly good time, and started preaching about how the food is
'technically no better' than XYZ's down the road.

"Leave us alone to enjoy our meal..."

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Anyway, you can lie your head off as much as you like for the next two
weeks, as I'm off to Corfu..

<rubs hands together> :-D

[Keith G]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
Just a quickie to say, for the record, I've *never* had any reason to
doubt Iain, on or offlist.....

Those who also follow RAT will have noticed that SP has shouted
"Lies, Lies Lies" at many of the members of that group.
These people happen to form the nucleus whose
knowledge and expertise is highly regarded by the rest of us.
So, in that respect, I am in very good company indeed:-)))
As I mentioned earlier, when SP stated that he did not believe that
I had every worked for Decca, RCA or any other record company,
I took the trouble to post for his benefit a list of recordings which he
could have bought, checked the credits, listened to, and enjoyed.
He chose not to do this, but clap his hands over his ears, shut his
eyes, stamp his feet and shout "Lies Lies Lies"

Iain, you need to know that Pinky has a track record of hosing down just
about anyone with the term 'liar' - I have had my own share of this and can
promise you I have *never* posted an untruth here or in any other newsgroup.
(Like, who TF could be arsed....??)

(I will admit to having made a few deliberately provocative statements in
the past, here and there, which I didn't/don't necessarily believe to be
completely true myself, but which were only ever expressed as opinions, in
any case, for the particular purpose of winding Pinky up, but, hey, ya gotta
get yer fun where you can in this life!! :-)

The point is, you need to put Pinky's outbursts into perspective - I think
you've got him fairly well weighed up and should know, better than most,
what a pointless waste of time and energy it is to react to them....!!

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

You could always try binning him, *keeping him* binned and ignoring any
'overspill' in replies to his posts...??

;-)

[Stewart Pinkerton]

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

You could always try binning him, *keeping him* binned and ignoring any
'overspill' in replies to his posts...??

He'll never do that, as he can't bear my exposing his pretentiousness,
and his delusions of grandeur - not to mention his flat lies. Note his
latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to closed
newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had, *he* would
have no way of knowing.

[Keith G]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

You could always try binning him, *keeping him* binned and ignoring any
'overspill' in replies to his posts...??

He'll never do that, as he can't bear my exposing his pretentiousness,
and his delusions of grandeur - not to mention his flat lies. Note his
latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to closed
newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had, *he* would
have no way of knowing.

Good point, but (like many others) I don't take that sort of 'usenet
bollockology' too literally (or at all seriously) - if we all did, you might
get swamped with demands to know 'dates/times/places' every time you *pass
sentence* on the umpteen bits of kit that get mentioned here. What I mean is
that, when it comes to factual claims, I have no reason to disbelieve Iain.
(Apart from anything else, we have exchanged enough audiovisual 'evidence'
of our various doings to prove we're neither of us bullshitting - not that
it is/was ever necessary from a *proof* POV...)

Now piss off to the Med for that holiday and FFS take Arny with you - he
needs it more than you do, he's going into 'post-menopausal meltdown'....!!!

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

You could always try binning him, *keeping him* binned and ignoring any
'overspill' in replies to his posts...??

Note his
latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to closed
newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had, *he* would
have no way of knowing.
--

I know because I received an invitation to join a particular group.
I asked the webmaster if Stewart Pinkerton had access.
He replied "No". So I joined. Simple as that:-))

Iain

[Eiron]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Note his
latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to closed
newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had, *he* would
have no way of knowing.
--

I know because I received an invitation to join a particular group.
I asked the webmaster if Stewart Pinkerton had access.
He replied "No". So I joined. Simple as that:-))

Dissembling again, Iain?

There is a world of difference between not being a member of a club
and having been blackballed by the committee.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Eiron

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
Note his
latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to closed
newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had, *he* would
have no way of knowing.
--

I know because I received an invitation to join a particular group.
I asked the webmaster if Stewart Pinkerton had access.
He replied "No". So I joined. Simple as that:-))

Dissembling again, Iain?
There is a world of difference between not being a member of a club
and having been blackballed by the committee.
--

Do you really think that any webmaster who had read SP's
posting on RAT (a group which he has repeatedly been asked to leave)
would invite him to join a group?

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Eiron
There is a world of difference between not being a member of a club
and having been blackballed by the committee.

Do you really think that any webmaster who had read SP's
posting on RAT (a group which he has repeatedly been asked to leave)
would invite him to join a group?

Asked to leave by whom?

If you don't wish to read the contributions from someone on this medium
you killfile them.

It's an open forum.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Eiron
There is a world of difference between not being a member of a club
and having been blackballed by the committee.

Do you really think that any webmaster who had read SP's
posting on RAT (a group which he has repeatedly been asked to leave)
would invite him to join a group?

Asked to leave by whom?

Take a look for yourself. SP does not deny that this is true.
Neither does he deny that he went to that group to disrupt it,
("spearing fish in a barrel" was the term he used IIRC)
and in doing so destroyed one of the most interesting threads
(on SET design) for a very long time.

So, it comes as no surprise to find that he is persona non grata
on a closed group.

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Iain M Churches

Note his latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to
closed newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had,
*he* would have no way of knowing.

I know because I received an invitation to join a particular group.
I asked the webmaster if Stewart Pinkerton had access.
He replied "No". So I joined. Simple as that:-))

To me that means something very different.

You implied that Stewart had applied and been refused.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches

Note his latest fatuous claim that I have been 'denied access' to
closed newsgroups. Not only is this a flat lie, but even if I had,
*he* would have no way of knowing.

I know because I received an invitation to join a particular group.
I asked the webmaster if Stewart Pinkerton had access.
He replied "No". So I joined. Simple as that:-))

To me that means something very different.
You implied that Stewart had applied and been refused.

No, I did not imply anything, Dave
I wrote "he is denied access". That is a fact.
Surely this comes as no suprise to any who follow RAT.

Many people, if they are given the address, can access
the group in guest status (read only) "No access" means
that SP is not one of those.

Iain

[Jim Lesurf]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)
You implied that Stewart had applied and been refused.

No, I did not imply anything, Dave I wrote "he is denied access". That
is a fact. Surely this comes as no suprise to any who follow RAT.

I am also not a member of many groupings, and I assumes many would exclude
me for various reasons.[1] However is that a reason for anyone else to be
pleased they are a member or can join? I can appreciate that some people
gain satisfaction from belonging to an organisation, but it seems strange
to me if they gain it from feeling that someone else is excluded.

Many people, if they are given the address, can access the group in
guest status (read only) "No access" means that SP is not one of those.

Ah. You are now stating that there are groups where there is a 'blacklist'
of people who it has been pre-arranged would be rejected - even though they
have never applied?

If so, I find that rather odd practice, TBH.

[1] FWIW I was once turned down by the IEE as I did not have enough people
working for me. So I had to put up with being limited to the IEEE and a few
other bodies... Given the reason the IEE has given I was happy enough not
to belong to it - although it felt odd in later years to be invited
meetings held at the IEE in London. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Jim Lesurf
Ah. You are now stating that there are groups where there is a 'blacklist'
of people who it has been pre-arranged would be rejected - even though they
have never applied?
If so, I find that rather odd practice, TBH.

I have very limited experience of closed groups, being a
member of only two, (and these take up too much time:-)
but having read SP's shameful posts on RAT, I would
not be surprised if he or Phil were personae non grata
on any group that selects or screens its members.
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Iain M Churches
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Well, that's one way to make sure you only get one point of view?

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Well, that's one way to make sure you only get one point of view?

As far as I can see so far, there are varied points of view.
But there are no flames, or people screaming "lies, lies" when
they read something of which they might not have experience.

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Well, that's one way to make sure you only get one point of view?

As far as I can see so far, there are varied points of view.
But there are no flames, or people screaming "lies, lies" when
they read something of which they might not have experience.

Not in the least interested in defending SP, but on technical matters he
usually posts sense. So could be an asset on a valve or vinyl group -
provided those there don't consider it a religion, and not to be
questioned in any way.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Well, that's one way to make sure you only get one point of view?

As far as I can see so far, there are varied points of view.
But there are no flames, or people screaming "lies, lies" when
they read something of which they might not have experience.

Not in the least interested in defending SP, but on technical matters he
usually posts sense. So could be an asset on a valve or vinyl group -
provided those there don't consider it a religion, and not to be
questioned in any way.

Funny how you jumped (erroneously) to the conclusion that it must
be a valves and vinyl group:-)) As you can see from threads on RAT
SP is definitely not considered an asset. I know of no other person
who has been asked to leave a group, do you?

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Iain M Churches
Funny how you jumped (erroneously) to the conclusion that it must
be a valves and vinyl group:-)) As you can see from threads on RAT
SP is definitely not considered an asset. I know of no other person
who has been asked to leave a group, do you?

What, newsgroups? It happens all the time. But of course you can be
*asked* to do anything. ;-)

Serious offenders can might find their ISP will take action if complaints
are received.

But *you* have the option to killfile anyone you don't want to read.

[Keith G]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
Funny how you jumped (erroneously) to the conclusion that it must
be a valves and vinyl group:-)) As you can see from threads on RAT
SP is definitely not considered an asset. I know of no other person
who has been asked to leave a group, do you?

What, newsgroups? It happens all the time. But of course you can be
*asked* to do anything. ;-)
Serious offenders can might find their ISP will take action if complaints
are received.
But *you* have the option to killfile anyone you don't want to read.

Quite - and it poses the question why a whole ng apparently chooses to
*suffer* at the hands of a scallywag bent on disruption, instead of
killfiling/ignoring him en masse....???

(Takes at least *more than one* to tango.... ;-)

[Eiron]

I know of no other person who has been asked to leave a group, do you?
Iain

Please leave this group, Iain.

Now you do.

[Chris Morriss]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Well, that's one way to make sure you only get one point of view?

As far as I can see so far, there are varied points of view.
But there are no flames, or people screaming "lies, lies" when
they read something of which they might not have experience.

Not in the least interested in defending SP, but on technical matters he
usually posts sense. So could be an asset on a valve or vinyl group -
provided those there don't consider it a religion, and not to be
questioned in any way.

Funny how you jumped (erroneously) to the conclusion that it must
be a valves and vinyl group:-)) As you can see from threads on RAT
SP is definitely not considered an asset. I know of no other person
who has been asked to leave a group, do you?
Iain

A few years ago (before Iain's time), Andre Jute was asked politely
(many times) to cease posting on RAT. He responded in his (now well
known), abusive petulant manner.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
As far as I know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Well, that's one way to make sure you only get one point of view?

As far as I can see so far, there are varied points of view.
But there are no flames, or people screaming "lies, lies" when
they read something of which they might not have experience.

Not in the least interested in defending SP, but on technical matters he
usually posts sense. So could be an asset on a valve or vinyl group -
provided those there don't consider it a religion, and not to be
questioned in any way.

Funny how you jumped (erroneously) to the conclusion that it must
be a valves and vinyl group:-)) As you can see from threads on RAT
SP is definitely not considered an asset. I know of no other person
who has been asked to leave a group, do you?
Iain

A few years ago (before Iain's time), Andre Jute was asked politely (many
times) to cease posting on RAT. He responded in his (now well known),
abusive petulant manner.
--
Chris Morriss

Hmm. Paradoxical. As I have mentioned before on UKRA,
I posted on RAT for help with a psu ripple calculation problem.
There were some very informative replies, but Andre Jute
sent me by post a spreadsheet which he had written in Excel.
He would not be recompensed for the CD, his time or for
the postage. I was impressed by his helpful attitude.

Iain

[Jim Lesurf]

I know of no other person who has been asked to leave a group, do you?

Yes.

But the point of usenet is that if you dislike someone you are free to
killfile their postings, or simply ignore them. Although a bit like a
'public place' in some ways, you can ignore/killfile someone without being
'shouted down' or find they are shouting so much that no-one can hear what
you are trying to say. Thus you don't have to ask them to leave, just
killfile them. You have personal control over this regardless of their
willingness to 'leave'.

Thus 'asking them to leave' is just a way of indicating that you dislike
their comments and wish they would cease. You don't control their response,
but you can control if you ever read it. :-) Others can then choose for
themselves if they wish to read it or not.

As Dave has been pointed out, if their behaviour extends beyond some limits
then you can complain to their ISP and their account/access may be severed
if it is felt that they have broken the law or committed some serious
breach.

Slainte,

Jim

[Rob]

Post by Jim Lesurf

I know of no other person who has been asked to leave a group, do you?

Yes.
But the point of usenet is that if you dislike someone you are free to
killfile their postings, or simply ignore them. Although a bit like a
'public place' in some ways, you can ignore/killfile someone without being
'shouted down' or find they are shouting so much that no-one can hear what
you are trying to say. Thus you don't have to ask them to leave, just
killfile them. You have personal control over this regardless of their
willingness to 'leave'.

I don't think killfile is the way forward. I've never done it (although
doubtless been a recipient!) because offensive (etc) posts continue to
affect the subject throughout a thread. So you don't really have
personal control if you wish to continue contributing.

Post by Jim Lesurf
Thus 'asking them to leave' is just a way of indicating that you dislike
their comments and wish they would cease. You don't control their response,
but you can control if you ever read it. :-) Others can then choose for
themselves if they wish to read it or not.

In a sense they (you, me) *have* to read it because it's part of the
contribution. I see it very much like a public meeting - you've got an
agenda item and some contributor is hell bent on disruption, imposing
their personality and narrow views. It gets you nowhere, and it's not
representative. You'd have thought things couldn't get much more
innocuous than asking about ways to listen to music, but there you go ...

Post by Jim Lesurf
As Dave has been pointed out, if their behaviour extends beyond some limits
then you can complain to their ISP and their account/access may be severed
if it is felt that they have broken the law or committed some serious
breach.

I would certainly agree if comments were, say, angled to denigrate on
the grounds of disability. But otherwise I think the group, or rather
thread contributors, should unanimously decide whether an individual
should 'step outside'.

Rob

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Rob
I would certainly agree if comments were, say, angled to denigrate on
the grounds of disability. But otherwise I think the group, or rather
thread contributors, should unanimously decide whether an individual
should 'step outside'.

Then you form a moderated group where you set the rules and can make sure
everyone agrees with its principles. Called censorship, basically.

[Rob]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Rob
I would certainly agree if comments were, say, angled to denigrate on
the grounds of disability. But otherwise I think the group, or rather
thread contributors, should unanimously decide whether an individual
should 'step outside'.

Then you form a moderated group where you set the rules and can make sure
everyone agrees with its principles. Called censorship, basically.

Yes, that's a method. But I have some unease with it - 'rules' are
difficult to state unambiguously and comprehensively, and new members
may be deterred. Crucially, they can be misinterpreted by an autocratic
moderator - IOW censorship, as you say.

I would prefer mutual understanding (agree to differ etc), in my dreams
of course ;-)

Rob

[Jim Lesurf]

Post by Rob

Post by Jim Lesurf
But the point of usenet is that if you dislike someone you are free to
killfile their postings, or simply ignore them.

[snip]

Post by Rob
I don't think killfile is the way forward. I've never done it (although
doubtless been a recipient!) because offensive (etc) posts continue to
affect the subject throughout a thread. So you don't really have
personal control if you wish to continue contributing.

Personally, I agree that killfiling isn't usually worthwhile. FWIW I have
not yet killfiled anyone. Although in one or two cases I avoided reading
their postings as I decided they were a waste of time unless other comments
from 'third parties' attracted my interest to specific postings. However if
someone finds postings by an individual offensive the mechanism is
available to them.

Post by Rob

Post by Jim Lesurf
Thus 'asking them to leave' is just a way of indicating that you
dislike their comments and wish they would cease. You don't control
their response, but you can control if you ever read it. :-) Others
can then choose for themselves if they wish to read it or not.

In a sense they (you, me) *have* to read it because it's part of the
contribution. I see it very much like a public meeting - you've got an
agenda item and some contributor is hell bent on disruption, imposing
their personality and narrow views. It gets you nowhere, and it's not
representative. You'd have thought things couldn't get much more
innocuous than asking about ways to listen to music, but there you go ...

My wife and I went to a 'gardening club' (non-exclusive membership!) last
night. The talk was from someone who was clearly very 'successful' at show
gardening and winning prizes for flowers at shows. He acheived this by
growing *hundreds* of flowers, spending large amounts of time on them, then
just showing a few. Despite this, and being well knows and successful, I
noted two things:

1) That when a couple of others asked him questions he had no idea of the
reasons for some of the things he had found. I found this remarkable for
the lack of interest/curiosity it showed in someone who was clearly keen on
what they were doing.

2) That his version of 'gardening' seemed to me to have virtually nothing
to do with what I regard as 'gardening'. I just want a garden with a
variety of pleasing plants that I can potter about it, and looks bright and
natural. The idea of spending hundreds of hours working on hundreds of
similar plants of the same species for a 'show' isn't at all my cup of tea.
Too much like working in a factory.

It gave me the impression that even in gardening there is a tendency for
some to be more concerned with the 'equipment' or the 'status' gained than
simply enjoying the process and the results.

Bit like audio, I suppose. "My woofers are bigger than your dad's!" ;-)

No doubt similar things go on in angling, or kite flying, or almost any
other 'interest' that people have.

Post by Rob

Post by Jim Lesurf
As Dave has been pointed out, if their behaviour extends beyond some
limits then you can complain to their ISP and their account/access may
be severed if it is felt that they have broken the law or committed
some serious breach.

I would certainly agree if comments were, say, angled to denigrate on
the grounds of disability. But otherwise I think the group, or rather
thread contributors, should unanimously decide whether an individual
should 'step outside'.

The difficulty is that - as Dave has said - unless a group is moderated or
the behaviour is effectively illegal or brings the ISP into disrepute, you
have no way to enforce this. Your only real control is not to read, or to
killfile. This comes down to "Do Not Feed The Trolls". :-) If the
person's behaviour is really *universally* unaccepted so that all killfile
or ignore then they get no reactions to any of their postings, and after a
while will probably decide they are shouting down a well, and go elsewhere
out of boredom. But this will only occur if all involved act in the same
way as they all find the postings sufficiently unacceptable. Since none of
us can make others toe a line, all we can really do is individually decide
when to ignore what we decide isn't worth reading. Of course, the
temptation to step in can be overpowering... ;-)

Slainte,

Jim

[Rob]

Post by Jim Lesurf

Post by Rob

Post by Jim Lesurf
But the point of usenet is that if you dislike someone you are free to
killfile their postings, or simply ignore them.

[snip]

Post by Rob
I don't think killfile is the way forward. I've never done it (although
doubtless been a recipient!) because offensive (etc) posts continue to
affect the subject throughout a thread. So you don't really have
personal control if you wish to continue contributing.

Personally, I agree that killfiling isn't usually worthwhile. FWIW I have
not yet killfiled anyone. Although in one or two cases I avoided reading
their postings as I decided they were a waste of time unless other comments
from 'third parties' attracted my interest to specific postings. However if
someone finds postings by an individual offensive the mechanism is
available to them.

Post by Rob

Post by Jim Lesurf
Thus 'asking them to leave' is just a way of indicating that you
dislike their comments and wish they would cease. You don't control
their response, but you can control if you ever read it. :-) Others
can then choose for themselves if they wish to read it or not.

In a sense they (you, me) *have* to read it because it's part of the
contribution. I see it very much like a public meeting - you've got an
agenda item and some contributor is hell bent on disruption, imposing
their personality and narrow views. It gets you nowhere, and it's not
representative. You'd have thought things couldn't get much more
innocuous than asking about ways to listen to music, but there you go ...

My wife and I went to a 'gardening club' (non-exclusive membership!) last
night. The talk was from someone who was clearly very 'successful' at show
gardening and winning prizes for flowers at shows. He acheived this by
growing *hundreds* of flowers, spending large amounts of time on them, then
just showing a few. Despite this, and being well knows and successful, I
1) That when a couple of others asked him questions he had no idea of the
reasons for some of the things he had found. I found this remarkable for
the lack of interest/curiosity it showed in someone who was clearly keen on
what they were doing.

Well, I have *some* sympathy - he just wants pretty plants maybe? The
why might be pretty complicated ...

Post by Jim Lesurf
2) That his version of 'gardening' seemed to me to have virtually nothing
to do with what I regard as 'gardening'. I just want a garden with a
variety of pleasing plants that I can potter about it, and looks bright and
natural. The idea of spending hundreds of hours working on hundreds of
similar plants of the same species for a 'show' isn't at all my cup of tea.
Too much like working in a factory.
It gave me the impression that even in gardening there is a tendency for
some to be more concerned with the 'equipment' or the 'status' gained than
simply enjoying the process and the results.
Bit like audio, I suppose. "My woofers are bigger than your dad's!" ;-)

Quite!

Post by Jim Lesurf
No doubt similar things go on in angling, or kite flying, or almost any
other 'interest' that people have.

Post by Rob

Post by Jim Lesurf
As Dave has been pointed out, if their behaviour extends beyond some
limits then you can complain to their ISP and their account/access may
be severed if it is felt that they have broken the law or committed
some serious breach.

I would certainly agree if comments were, say, angled to denigrate on
the grounds of disability. But otherwise I think the group, or rather
thread contributors, should unanimously decide whether an individual
should 'step outside'.

The difficulty is that - as Dave has said - unless a group is moderated or
the behaviour is effectively illegal or brings the ISP into disrepute, you
have no way to enforce this. Your only real control is not to read, or to
killfile. This comes down to "Do Not Feed The Trolls". :-) If the
person's behaviour is really *universally* unaccepted so that all killfile
or ignore then they get no reactions to any of their postings, and after a
while will probably decide they are shouting down a well, and go elsewhere
out of boredom. But this will only occur if all involved act in the same
way as they all find the postings sufficiently unacceptable. Since none of
us can make others toe a line, all we can really do is individually decide
when to ignore what we decide isn't worth reading. Of course, the
temptation to step in can be overpowering... ;-)

I was sort of going somewhere with this. I should imagine such a process
(exclude individuals on a thread/issue basis) would be 'software
possible' in newsreaders of the future. The point being that my ahem
plan is technically feasible.

As an aside, I thought it was interesting to have a look at some of the
posting stats for this group:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.audio/about?hl=en

Quite a gathering :-)

Rob

[Keith G]

Post by Rob
As an aside, I thought it was interesting to have a look at some of the
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.audio/about?hl=en
Quite a gathering :-)

And not a little embarrassing!! :-)


(No. 3 'All Time Posters'...???!!)

I really *do* gotta get out more!!

:-)

[Don Pearce]

Post by Keith G
(No. 3 'All Time Posters'...???!!)
I really *do* gotta get out more!!
:-)

Of course! But don't forget your laptop with the wireless Internet
card. ;-)

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Don Pearce

Post by Keith G
(No. 3 'All Time Posters'...???!!)
I really *do* gotta get out more!!
:-)

Of course! But don't forget your laptop with the wireless Internet
card. ;-)
d

I got one of those just two weeks ago. It's showing in
the statistics already:-))

Iain

[Jim Lesurf]

Post by Jim Lesurf
Ah. You are now stating that there are groups where there is a
'blacklist' of people who it has been pre-arranged would be rejected -
even though they have never applied?
If so, I find that rather odd practice, TBH.

I have very limited experience of closed groups, being a member of only
two, (and these take up too much time:-) but having read SP's shameful
posts on RAT, I would not be surprised if he or Phil were personae non
grata on any group that selects or screens its members. As far as I
know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Alas, this is a practice which - although it may be understandable in some
ways - does risk excluding views which do not 'fit' the assumptions of
those in a 'club'. Where these assumptions are tenets of a 'faith' I
suppose this risks injuring no-one but the 'believers'. However if the club
members feel they are discussing aspects of reality where physics or
engineering may be relevant, such an exclusion does risk perpetuating
self-deceptions and errors. This may make them look foolish in due course.

Still, I suppose this is OK provided the club members don't expect anyone
*outside* their club to take their views seriously. :-)

FWIW I can understand a wish to avoid personal arguments or even abuse.
Also to exclude anything which is actually irrelevant or time wasting.
However I fear you may be discarding the baby with the bathwater if you
ban people you find objectionable from putting their views. The problem is
that people (either in the club our outside) may be confident their view is
correct, yet be in error. Blocking debate prevents discovery of errors.

As you know, personally I prefer usenet, the web, etc. This does mean at
times I get abuse for saying something which someone else finds
objectionable. However the point is that *they may be right* when they say
I am in error about something - even when they point it out in an
unpleasant way. Refusing to read their comments would prevent me from
learning.

Again FWIW experience of the way professional academics run their
activities also makes me very wary of 'invitation only clubs'. They often
have seemed to me to show the kinds of flaws I outline above. For my sins I
was once appointed onto one of the science committees that assigned some
funding in one UK research council area. I was unable to get anyone to
explain *how* I was 'chosen'. Nor did I see all that much accountability or
sense in some of their awards beyond a preference for supporting 'club
members' and a sort of status quo regarding who got money or regard. I
therefore made my excuses and resigned after a while.

I suppose I must be a member of the 'awkward squad' after all... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Jim Lesurf

Post by Jim Lesurf
Ah. You are now stating that there are groups where there is a
'blacklist' of people who it has been pre-arranged would be rejected -
even though they have never applied?
If so, I find that rather odd practice, TBH.

I have very limited experience of closed groups, being a member of only
two, (and these take up too much time:-) but having read SP's shameful
posts on RAT, I would not be surprised if he or Phil were personae non
grata on any group that selects or screens its members. As far as I
know, people do not apply, but are invited to join.

Alas, this is a practice which - although it may be understandable in some
ways - does risk excluding views which do not 'fit' the assumptions of
those in a 'club'. Where these assumptions are tenets of a 'faith' I
suppose this risks injuring no-one but the 'believers'. However if the club
members feel they are discussing aspects of reality where physics or
engineering may be relevant, such an exclusion does risk perpetuating
self-deceptions and errors. This may make them look foolish in due course.
Still, I suppose this is OK provided the club members don't expect anyone
*outside* their club to take their views seriously. :-)
FWIW I can understand a wish to avoid personal arguments or even abuse.
Also to exclude anything which is actually irrelevant or time wasting.
However I fear you may be discarding the baby with the bathwater if you
ban people you find objectionable from putting their views. The problem is
that people (either in the club our outside) may be confident their view is
correct, yet be in error. Blocking debate prevents discovery of errors.
As you know, personally I prefer usenet, the web, etc. This does mean at
times I get abuse for saying something which someone else finds
objectionable. However the point is that *they may be right* when they say
I am in error about something - even when they point it out in an
unpleasant way. Refusing to read their comments would prevent me from
learning.
Again FWIW experience of the way professional academics run their
activities also makes me very wary of 'invitation only clubs'. They often
have seemed to me to show the kinds of flaws I outline above. For my sins I
was once appointed onto one of the science committees that assigned some
funding in one UK research council area. I was unable to get anyone to
explain *how* I was 'chosen'. Nor did I see all that much accountability or
sense in some of their awards beyond a preference for supporting 'club
members' and a sort of status quo regarding who got money or regard. I
therefore made my excuses and resigned after a while.
I suppose I must be a member of the 'awkward squad' after all... :-)
Slainte,
Jim

The closed group in question is populated by audio professionals,
so much of what you write above is probably not applicable.
I am happy to have been selected to take part.

Iain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Post by Iain M Churches
The closed group in question is populated by audio professionals,
so much of what you write above is probably not applicable.
I am happy to have been selected to take part.

Heh heh. Are you saying that those who make a living out of audio are free
from the sort of 'prejudices' we get on here and in similar groups? ;-)

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Dave Plowman (News)

Post by Iain M Churches
The closed group in question is populated by audio professionals,
so much of what you write above is probably not applicable.
I am happy to have been selected to take part.

Heh heh. Are you saying that those who make a living out of audio are free
from the sort of 'prejudices' we get on here and in similar groups? ;-)

No. Of course not. Wouldn't that be boring!! :-) But they put their
views in a slightly different, more amicable way. After all, many
of them work together in the same organisations.

Iain

[Jim Lesurf]

[big snip]

Post by Jim Lesurf
I suppose I must be a member of the 'awkward squad' after all... :-)
Slainte,
Jim

The closed group in question is populated by audio professionals, so
much of what you write above is probably not applicable.

Much of what I wrote was based on experience with university-level academic
scientists and professional electronic engineers. I fear you may be
deluding yourself if you assume it is "not applicable" to audio engineers.
:-)

FWIW I am also a member of the AES and have had some involvement over the
years with professional audio. That experience does not lead me to feel
they are immune to the processes I describe. Indeed, my suspicion is that
given the 'fashion led' or subjective nature of much of their business,
combined at times with commercial imperatives, they are distinctly prone
to these problems at times.

I am happy to have been selected to take part.

Club members often are. :-) This is yet another reason why I am wary of
such clubs. It may give the members a view of themselves which may not be
entirely justfied by excluding anyone with contrary views. ;->


I know that being 'accepted' by a club of 'peers' can feel very good.
However I am wary of this. I tend to prefer the good feeling when I
find out something new, and correct a previous error or lack of
understanding to the 'comfort' of being a club member.


If I make an error (which I surely do at times) then I wish to know this
is the case. Having people who disagree is a valuable contribution to
this. Although albeit annoying if the person who points out an error does
so in an obnoxious manner. :-) But it seems to me better to realise
an error than to go on believing in it.

The process of education requires that we first realise that we have
made an error or do not understand something. If we are certain we
are correct that acts as an impediment to further learning. Excluding
dissent can allow us all to easily to feel that since we can't hear
any objections from beyond the wall that no objections to our ideas
can exist or be justfied.

I am reminded of the lines in H2G2.

"It was a golden age when everyone was rich and no-one was poor - well,
no-one worth mentioning, anyway!" :-)

Slainte,

Jim

[Keith G]

Post by Jim Lesurf
Club members often are. :-) This is yet another reason why I am wary of
such clubs. It may give the members a view of themselves which may not be
entirely justfied by excluding anyone with contrary views. ;->

I think a club is very often defined more by those who are excluded than by
those who are its members, but any club worth joining would certainly
contain a percentage of members who will speak the truth (as they perceive
it), no matter what the consensus may think/want to believe - no....???

Post by Jim Lesurf
I know that being 'accepted' by a club of 'peers' can feel very good.
However I am wary of this. I tend to prefer the good feeling when I
find out something new, and correct a previous error or lack of
understanding to the 'comfort' of being a club member.

Is that right, Jim the Jim? :-)

(The appellation due a member of the conceptual/non-exclusive Fettlers
Guild - *Honorary Grand Master* asitappens, in respect of
knowledge/experience/expertise and 'honorary' only because you are a
'non-thermionophile'.... ;-)

Post by Jim Lesurf
If I make an error (which I surely do at times) then I wish to know this
is the case.

Get a valve amp then - it'll damn soon let you know if/when you've done
summat wrong!! :-)

Post by Jim Lesurf
The process of education requires that we first realise that we have
made an error or do not understand something.

Or we discover something new...

Post by Jim Lesurf
If we are certain we
are correct that acts as an impediment to further learning.

Yes, as does being *qualified* IME, with some people - not necessarily in
this group, I hasten to add.... ;-)

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Jim Lesurf
[big snip]

Post by Jim Lesurf
I suppose I must be a member of the 'awkward squad' after all... :-)
Slainte,
Jim

The closed group in question is populated by audio professionals, so
much of what you write above is probably not applicable.

Much of what I wrote was based on experience with university-level academic
scientists and professional electronic engineers. I fear you may be
deluding yourself if you assume it is "not applicable" to audio engineers.
:-)

I can see clear differences of opinion, but sound logical reasoning in many
threads. There do not appear to be any flames, or expletives (dull, eh?
:-))

I recognise many of the names, a few of them from record sleeves,
technical people and musicians. There are some I know
personally, and even one (keeping very quiet about it)
who posts on this NG:-)

Iain

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Jim Lesurf
As you know, personally I prefer usenet, the web, etc. This does mean at
times I get abuse for saying something which someone else finds
objectionable. However the point is that *they may be right* when they say
I am in error about something - even when they point it out in an
unpleasant way. Refusing to read their comments would prevent me from
learning.

Yes. I am sure you are right, Jim, but I wonder what you, or others could
possibly learn when friend Phil A likened you facial features to
reproductive and excretive organs? :-))) or should the smiley be :-((( ?

You probably learned as much from this as others of us did from an
evaluation of an amplifier from a member of this group who we can be
pretty sure has not even seen let alone heard the amp in question.
This was quite an achievement, more than anything magazine
reviewers can offer:-))


Iain

[Jim Lesurf]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Jim Lesurf
As you know, personally I prefer usenet, the web, etc. This does mean
at times I get abuse for saying something which someone else finds
objectionable. However the point is that *they may be right* when they
say I am in error about something - even when they point it out in an
unpleasant way. Refusing to read their comments would prevent me from
learning.

Yes. I am sure you are right, Jim, but I wonder what you, or others
could possibly learn when friend Phil A likened you facial features to
reproductive and excretive organs? :-))) or should the smiley be :-((( ?

TBH My personal view is that when people become personally abusive or
patronising or arrogant they give me the feeling that they are short of
more relevant lines of argument. I actually tend to find this dissapointing
as a more reasoned response might be a sign that they do, indeed, have
something 'new' (from my POV) to offer.

Getting abuse can be irritating, but I suspect that the main effect is that
this undermines the confidence others have in what the abuser is asserting.
Hence it can have some value in terms of education. Although of course
there is no guarantee that when someone becomes abusive that their original
points were wrong. This is why it can be worth patiently trying to
disentangle claims and arguments from such obnoxious behaviour.

If nothing else, it gives a chance for third parties to read the discussion
and form their own views. This may help undermine or call into question
incorrect or unfounded ideas even if it produces no new ideas as such.

Without the above, we get the situation where almost any twaddle, once
published with determination, may become accepted. Withdrawing behind
protecting walls and leaving this to others does not seem to me to be the
best course.

Post by Iain M Churches
You probably learned as much from this as others of us did from an
evaluation of an amplifier from a member of this group who we can be
pretty sure has not even seen let alone heard the amp in question. This
was quite an achievement, more than anything magazine reviewers can
offer:-))

Well, many of the 'reviews' I have read might well have been more accurate
if the 'reviewer' had never seen or listened to the product. :-)

Indeed, I have encountered cases where a reviewer made an inaccurate or
misleading measurement and then proceeded to pontificate on the 'sound' or
performance in ways which could not have been the case in reality.

Slainte,

Jim

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Keith G
Iain, you need to know that Pinky has a track record of hosing down just
about anyone with the term 'liar' - I have had my own share of this and
can promise you I have *never* posted an untruth here or in any other
newsgroup. (Like, who TF could be arsed....??)

I too can make the same promise. A week ago I made a
post regarding a pitch exeperiment with a clarinet and
a string quartet. The idea came from a Swedish journal.
The idea is to shft the pitch of the clarinet over a number of bars,
and bring it back: Of the 11 people listening, none expected
anything, and very few noticed the pitch change. Friend Pinkie
immediately shouts "Lies, Lies" Now, I ask you, why should
anyone want to lie about a thing like that???

Post by Keith G
(I will admit to having made a few deliberately provocative statements in
the past, here and there, which I didn't/don't necessarily believe to be
completely true myself, but which were only ever expressed as opinions, in
any case, for the particular purpose of winding Pinky up, but, hey, ya
gotta get yer fun where you can in this life!! :-)
The point is, you need to put Pinky's outbursts into perspective - I think
you've got him fairly well weighed up and should know, better than most,
what a pointless waste of time and energy it is to react to them....!!

My trouble is that I take him very seriously, and have a problem
with his coarse manner. I can see that he has a certain expertise
which I lack - he can advise people on their choice of AV amplifiers
or domestic speakers or CD players within a certain budget.
But then again, so can a salesman at Dixons:-))

I am happy to be a member of groups to which he is denied
access:-))

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I wish that SP would do me the compliment of putting my name in
a killfile, as I have done for him:-)

You could always try binning him, *keeping him* binned and ignoring any
'overspill' in replies to his posts...??
;-)

Then I get e-mails from people on the fringe, saying "Did
you you see what Oinks is saying now?"
I take a look, and cannot resist a reply. But yes,
I will try very hard to keep him binned:-)

Thanks for the advice:-)

Iain

[Keith G]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
Iain, you need to know that Pinky has a track record of hosing down just
about anyone with the term 'liar' - I have had my own share of this and
can promise you I have *never* posted an untruth here or in any other
newsgroup. (Like, who TF could be arsed....??)

I too can make the same promise. A week ago I made a
post regarding a pitch exeperiment with a clarinet and
a string quartet. The idea came from a Swedish journal.
The idea is to shft the pitch of the clarinet over a number of bars,
and bring it back: Of the 11 people listening, none expected
anything, and very few noticed the pitch change. Friend Pinkie
immediately shouts "Lies, Lies" Now, I ask you, why should
anyone want to lie about a thing like that???

To impress their girlfriends? :-)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
The point is, you need to put Pinky's outbursts into perspective - I think
you've got him fairly well weighed up and should know, better than most,
what a pointless waste of time and energy it is to react to them....!!

My trouble is that I take him very seriously,

That's your first mistake!!

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
You could always try binning him, *keeping him* binned and ignoring any
'overspill' in replies to his posts...??
;-)

Then I get e-mails from people on the fringe, saying "Did
you you see what Oinks is saying now?"
I take a look, and cannot resist a reply. But yes,
I will try very hard to keep him binned:-)
Thanks for the advice:-)

Not advice - merely a suggestion....

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:27:11 GMT, " Dave xxxx"

Post by Dave xxxx

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales
and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to
property overseas is true,

What has that to do with anything? We already know that he lives in
Finland.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,
part of the address is
Humikkalantie **** Helsink is one
He is and has been for years by trade an Audio Engineer
This is not someone with a couple of decks and a mixer in his bed room but
someone getting paid to do it as a job.
Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in December
;-)
regards
Dave
www.davewhitter.myby.co.uk

I think you are wasting your time Dave. Everytime SP
comes across anything of which he has no knowledge or
experience, or does not fit in with his view of the world,
he shuts his eyes, puts his hands over his eyes, and shouts
"lies lies lies"

SP even denied that I was with Decca or RCA. I posted
a list of recordings which he could purchase. He chose not
to do so. I think this illustrates well the denial syndrome.

But that's OK. if that's his style, the so be it:-)

Iain

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:40:49 +0300, "Iain M Churches"

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Stewart Pinkerton
No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying

got under my skin

What lies? a quick look around the web shows his claims to property
overseas is true,
part of the address is
Humikkalantie **** Helsink is one
He is and has been for years by trade an Audio Engineer
This is not someone with a couple of decks and a mixer in his bed room but
someone getting paid to do it as a job.
Not sure if he is still working as I think he is 60 in December
;-)
regards
Dave
www.davewhitter.myby.co.uk

I think you are wasting your time Dave. Everytime SP
comes across anything of which he has no knowledge or
experience, or does not fit in with his view of the world,
he shuts his eyes, puts his hands over his eyes, and shouts
"lies lies lies"

Bullshit, and not even a good attempt. I only call 'liar' when I see a
clear lie - to which you seem addicted.

Post by Iain M Churches
SP even denied that I was with Decca or RCA. I posted
a list of recordings which he could purchase. He chose not
to do so. I think this illustrates well the denial syndrome.

That's just typical of your pathetic lies. I never said any such
thing, and your discography is so easily available that any attempt to
do so would have been risible - as is your use of a geriatric Radford
tube amp and domestic Tannoys for 'monitoring'.

[Keith G]

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G

Post by Stewart Pinkerton

Post by Keith G
(Thinking on it, it's perhaps Pinky's side of the exchanges that more
reminds me of the Bonnie Ronnie Mack!! :-)

Fork in L - time to reassess one's strategy! :-(

Probably not - worked well enough with the Bonnie Ronnie and I gather
(somewhere down below) that Iain the Iain's binned you yet again, so why
change a winning formula? :-)

No, I have to admit that Iain's persistent fairy tales and flat lying
got under my skin ( I think he's been reading too many Andre Jute
posts), and I knee-jerked several posts which would have benefitted
from rather more thought. Despite our obvious differences, you're one
of the few posters that I'd consider to have his head screwed on
relatively straight, so your comment that you thought Iain was ahead
on points was a bit of a startler! :-(
Ah well, I obviously need a couple of weeks in the sun! :-)

Yes, you're getting a little 'overly mellow' - we can't have that now, can
we?? :-)

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Keith G
OK, I gather you meant this post to go as a direct email to me and have
posted it here in error. I will answer it here in order to reduce any
'loss of face' and also so you can see my replies (normally private) stand
even when in public, as it were.

No loss of face. Like you, I don't need to write anything in an e-mail that
cannot be written in open forum.

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.

Absolutely not - I don't need to get into any 'lines' in ukra.

Probably better to form your own:-)

Post by Keith G
You *know* my return to ukra was partly in response to a small number of
direct emails that had said the group had all but dried up. You also know
that I have studiously avoided getting into any slanging matches here
despite the incredibly weak efforts of a tiny number of 'farmworkers' here
to provoke me from time to time... ;-)

Yes. That has become apparent.

Post by Keith G
The fairly recent 'valve and vinyl wars' have all but disappeared (valves
and vinyl won - as your presence in this group attests)

Agreed.

Post by Keith G
and with them any requirement to 'vigorously defend them' - not that I
would bother any more, as all the 'vinylists' appeared to have fucked off
anyway and the few valveys that did post here *lurk* but don't post any
more, from what I gather.

There are a large number of people especially those of our age who have
a mild, polite disposition. They feel uncomfortable in the company of louts
and so do not choose to post here. I correspond with several and read their
posts often on closed groups. The alpha chimp has done this group a great
dis-service:-)

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
Maybe that's a tactical necessity
if you want to maintain
a popular presence on UKRA:-))

Are you kidding?? Who gives a FF about 'popularity'??

Please don't confuse us with your technical terminology:-))

Post by Keith G
(Apologies if I have given you the impression that I need to be *popular*
in ukra - what, with the 4 or 5 regular posters that remain...!!!???)

You have a very distinctive style - quite unique:-)
The group will soon be small enough to form a string quartet:-)

Post by Keith G
Any 'tactics' I may/may not employ on ukra are (as I have said more than
once) are only to try and reduce the acrimony that turned this group into
a cesspit a while back. (I have to balance that with my own wickedness and
sense of fun, so there's bound to be a little slip occasionally!! ;-)

Yes. Highly commendable. If I were a catholic I would feel honour bound
to confess that I have transgressed in clashing with Oinkie again. I have
not
seen his posts for a while (and not missed a thing I am told:-) But this
new
horticultural laptop (the one I use in the garden) had no Foot and Mouth
filter. I have no installed one:-)

Post by Keith G
Believe me, there are similarities - Ronnie went head to head with Pinky
(ad nauseam) and got beaten up (ish). You, I'm pleased to say, show no
signs of suffering the same fate - if it helps, I would put you way ahead
on points, as Pinky sems to have run out of steam and is falling back to
the usual stream of invective and insults he uses when he finds he can't
win by arguing 'technicalities'!! ;-)

For someone who claims to be an educated man, he seems to have
difficulty with both self expression and self control.
That's probably all part of the truth denial syndrome :-))

Someone on the broadscaster's group said "You should not post anything
which you would not allow your mother, your managing director, or your
priest to read"

Post by Keith G
But, having said that, you need to understand I do *not* disagree with all
that Pinky says, there are many areas where I agree with him entirely -
cables, overpriced/over-rated high end stuff, DVDPs/CDPs and ss amps all
sounding virtually identical etc....

Yes. I agree with him on those points also.

Post by Keith G
If it helps, I liked BRM - he was a hoot at times and his 'slanging match
abilities' weren't too bad at all, once he had got the hang of it!! :-)

So what happened to him. Maybe he is also slumped in the doorway of
a hifi shop in Moss Side - strangled with RBoS lamp flex:-))

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I am on holiday now - three glorious months.

ICELAND

Post by Keith G
And very nice too - I wouldn't mind that trip myself!!

Shall I book four tickets? :-)
I have a shellac transfer de-clicking session in progress.
I will host it if it comes out well.

Cheers

Iain

[Wally]

Post by Iain M Churches
There are a large number of people especially those of our age who have
a mild, polite disposition. They feel uncomfortable in the company
of louts and so do not choose to post here. I correspond with
several and read their posts often on closed groups.

Are you saying that this unmoderated public newsgroup should be the preserve
of people 'of your age who have a mild, polite disposition'?

Post by Iain M Churches
The alpha chimp has done this group a great dis-service:-)

Is there any reason to interpret this as being anything other than a
thinly-veiled insult from a sanctimonious prick? Do you contend that
'polite' insults are acceptable, while more direct insults aren't? If you
don't, then why are you sinking to the level that you criticise in others?
If you do, then please justify your position.

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Wally

Post by Iain M Churches
There are a large number of people especially those of our age who have
a mild, polite disposition. They feel uncomfortable in the company
of louts and so do not choose to post here. I correspond with
several and read their posts often on closed groups.

Are you saying that this unmoderated public newsgroup should be the preserve
of people 'of your age who have a mild, polite disposition'?

No, of course not. What I am saying is that the quality of the
language used in any discussion is important. Expletives do
nothing to strengthen the point one is trying to make -
in fact quite the reverse.

Let me give you an example. An ex BBC pal of mine, a very
pleasant, courteous and extremely knowledgeable man,
posted once, and once only, on a Usenet group. What he
wrote was completely correct, and contained no factual errors.
Someone on that group, who misread what was written
started a new thread "XXXXXXX is a f*ckwit". To this day,
when one enters my pal's name in Google, the thread
subject pops up. Nice, don't you think?
I have asked him time and time again to take part
in UKRA. He will not. His absence is our loss.

I don't know about you Wally, but I correspond with a
number of people who follow this group, but do not
post for the reason I have stated above.
Their presence here, in open forum would be of
benefit to the group and no doubt of interest to us all.

Have you noticed how many of the interesting posters
have disappeared? As pointed out by someone else, earlier
in this thread, many of them were valves and vinyl people.
Have you wondered why they no longer post, but still
keep in regular contact by e-mail?


Like many others, I will not descend to coarse language,
so in reply to those that use it, I resort to a little badinage
and a smiley or two.

Post by Wally

Post by Iain M Churches
The alpha chimp has done this group a great dis-service:-)

Is there any reason to interpret this as being anything other than a
thinly-veiled insult from a sanctimonious prick?

You must interpret what you read in your own way. It may be
that your interpretation is not as the writer intended. Alpha-
chimp is a term widely used to refer to someone who strives
to tries to impose his views on a community like a NG by
drumming on his chest and shouting the loudest.
This is done by the use of expletives.

Post by Wally
Do you contend that
'polite' insults are acceptable, while more direct insults aren't? If you
don't, then why are you sinking to the level that you criticise in others?
If you do, then please justify your position.

I try always to polite and friendly, and happily get on with most
people on and off NGs and also in my professional life.
For the last few days, I have been working with a laptop in
the garden. This had no killfile. It now has a single entry
(no, it's not you:-))


Iain

[Keith G]

Post by Iain M Churches
Let me give you an example. An ex BBC pal of mine, a very
pleasant, courteous and extremely knowledgeable man,
posted once, and once only, on a Usenet group. What he
wrote was completely correct, and contained no factual errors.
Someone on that group, who misread what was written
started a new thread "XXXXXXX is a f*ckwit". To this day,
when one enters my pal's name in Google, the thread
subject pops up. Nice, don't you think?
I have asked him time and time again to take part
in UKRA. He will not. His absence is our loss.

Not so sure about that - I think this *hobbyist* group has got more than its
fair share of self-styled 'audio pros' as it is!! ;-)

[Wally]

Post by Iain M Churches
What I am saying is that the quality of the
language used in any discussion is important.

Define "quality" in this context.

Post by Iain M Churches
Expletives do
nothing to strengthen the point one is trying to make -
in fact quite the reverse.

I disagree. There are a great many ways for people to express themselves.
The fact that not all of them sit well with you doesn't make the ones you
disapprove of somehow ineffective in conveying a point.

Post by Iain M Churches
Let me give you an example. An ex BBC pal of mine, a very
pleasant, courteous and extremely knowledgeable man,
posted once, and once only, on a Usenet group. What he
wrote was completely correct, and contained no factual errors.
Someone on that group, who misread what was written
started a new thread "XXXXXXX is a f*ckwit". To this day,
when one enters my pal's name in Google, the thread
subject pops up. Nice, don't you think?
I have asked him time and time again to take part
in UKRA. He will not. His absence is our loss.

His absense is his *choice*. Whether or not that is 'our' (who?) loss is a
matter of nothing more than your personal opinion.

Post by Iain M Churches
I don't know about you Wally, but I correspond with a
number of people who follow this group, but do not
post for the reason I have stated above.

So what? There are at dozens of audio forums out there. We've had this
conversation before, but I feel that I need to make the point again: This is
an unmoderated public newsgroup. Absolutely *anybody* can post here; they
can post whatever they like, and express themselves in whatever manner they
please, with the one proviso that they do so within the bounds set by the
group's charter. The charter does not say that we have to be nice to each
other, it doesn't say that expletives are disallowed. You're campaigning for
something that is antithetcal to usenet itself - you don't seem understand
the nature of the beast.

Post by Iain M Churches
Their presence here, in open forum would be of
benefit to the group and no doubt of interest to us all.

In your opinion.

Post by Iain M Churches
Have you noticed how many of the interesting posters
have disappeared?

Uh..., no.

Post by Iain M Churches
As pointed out by someone else, earlier
in this thread, many of them were valves and vinyl people.

Were they? Should I give a monkey's about that?

Post by Iain M Churches
Have you wondered why they no longer post, but still
keep in regular contact by e-mail?

Oh, lemme guess - they couldn't hack having their asses flamed in a usenet
forum? So, what's *new*?

Post by Iain M Churches
Like many others, I will not descend to coarse language,
so in reply to those that use it, I resort to a little badinage
and a smiley or two.

I, on the other hand, am quite happy to resort to 'coarse language' if I
feel in the mood to do so. That doesn't make me a bad person, it doesn't
make me stupid, and it doesn't invalidate whatever point I may be seeking to
make. It's entirely possible to demonstrate great eloquence with a stream of
invective and four-letter words. You are perfectly entitled to think
otherwise, of course.

The difference between you and I is that I don't admonish you to express
yourself in any way other than the way you choose. By contrast, you are
saying that everybody should express themselves in the way that you approve
of, so that your shrinking violet buddies can come in here and grace us with
their supposed knowledge.

Do you believe that the arguments in support of normative ethics hold?

[Nick Gorham]

Post by Wally

Post by Iain M Churches
What I am saying is that the quality of the
language used in any discussion is important.

Define "quality" in this context.

Post by Iain M Churches
Expletives do
nothing to strengthen the point one is trying to make -
in fact quite the reverse.

I disagree. There are a great many ways for people to express themselves.
The fact that not all of them sit well with you doesn't make the ones you
disapprove of somehow ineffective in conveying a point.

Quite true, in a 1:1 conversation all that is needed is a choice of
language that allows the communication of the required information.
However in a 1:n medium like usenet, if the goal is to maximise the
transference of information to as many readers as possible the use of a
safe subset of the available language will improve the chances of
meaningful communication.

Again, as you say, this is usenet, the poster can choose to talk to
empty air, or attempt to create a dialog.

Post by Wally
His absense is his *choice*. Whether or not that is 'our' (who?) loss is a
matter of nothing more than your personal opinion.

There is no "our" in usenet other that the combined sum of the readers
and posters at a particular point in time.

Post by Wally
So what? There are at dozens of audio forums out there. We've had this
conversation before, but I feel that I need to make the point again: This is
an unmoderated public newsgroup. Absolutely *anybody* can post here; they
can post whatever they like, and express themselves in whatever manner they
please, with the one proviso that they do so within the bounds set by the
group's charter. The charter does not say that we have to be nice to each
other, it doesn't say that expletives are disallowed. You're campaigning for
something that is antithetcal to usenet itself - you don't seem understand
the nature of the beast.

But that assumes there is a thesis, and the of course as you say, there
isn't, however, thats not actually any different to any other form of
communication. You can choose to stand at the bar of a pub and shout
rubbish, and others can chose to ignore you, or engage in debate with
what you are saying. Your choice as to what you say, my choice who I
listen to, and my choice who I reply to, and again, you choose if you
want to listen to my reply.

Post by Wally

Post by Iain M Churches
Their presence here, in open forum would be of
benefit to the group and no doubt of interest to us all.

In your opinion.

again that assumes that the is a "group", I don't thing there is, just a
random collection of posters, some who post more than others.

Post by Wally

Post by Iain M Churches
Have you noticed how many of the interesting posters
have disappeared?

Uh..., no.

Post by Iain M Churches
As pointed out by someone else, earlier
in this thread, many of them were valves and vinyl people.

Were they? Should I give a monkey's about that?

No, again your choice, but the question is always to be asked, why are
you reading this group, what do you expect to gain from that activity?

Post by Wally

Post by Iain M Churches
Have you wondered why they no longer post, but still
keep in regular contact by e-mail?

Oh, lemme guess - they couldn't hack having their asses flamed in a usenet
forum? So, what's *new*?

or they have better things to spend there time on, again, whats "new".

Post by Wally
I, on the other hand, am quite happy to resort to 'coarse language' if I
feel in the mood to do so. That doesn't make me a bad person, it doesn't
make me stupid, and it doesn't invalidate whatever point I may be seeking to
make. It's entirely possible to demonstrate great eloquence with a stream of
invective and four-letter words. You are perfectly entitled to think
otherwise, of course.

In fact it doesn't mean anything, but language is meant to enable the
communication of information, you may chose to use language with a high,
low or zero information content. Again your call.

[Keith G]

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
OK, I gather you meant this post to go as a direct email to me and have
posted it here in error. I will answer it here in order to reduce any
'loss of face' and also so you can see my replies (normally private)
stand even when in public, as it were.

No loss of face. Like you, I don't need to write anything in an e-mail that
cannot be written in open forum.

Exactamento!!

(No need to mention that 'little thing' about the goats, though....!! :-)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
Absolutely not - I don't need to get into any 'lines' in ukra.

Probably better to form your own:-)

Nope, no 'lines' for me, thank you very much!! ;-)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
The fairly recent 'valve and vinyl wars' have all but disappeared (valves
and vinyl won - as your presence in this group attests)

Agreed.

;-)

Post by Iain M Churches
There are a large number of people especially those of our age who have
a mild, polite disposition.

Or who have just realised that this planet's headed down the tubes at an
alarming rate and that we are leaving kids behind us to deal with the
consequences!!

Post by Iain M Churches
You have a very distinctive style - quite unique:-)
The group will soon be small enough to form a string quartet:-)

Or big enough to form a sextet? :-)

Post by Iain M Churches
Yes. Highly commendable. If I were a catholic I would feel honour bound
to confess that I have transgressed in clashing with Oinkie again.

Oh, that *is* so very Catholic - have fun doing it (anything) then have to
feel bad about it afterwards!! (That's so Catholic it's almost *Jewish*!!
;-)


<snip Pinky bashing - do it on your own time Iain!! ;-)>

Post by Iain M Churches
Someone on the broadscaster's group said "You should not post anything
which you would not allow your mother, your managing director, or your
priest to read"

Well me dear old mum (who was a Catholic) is dead and gone and I *was* the
MD, so that leaves the field pretty open for me dunnit? :-)

Post by Iain M Churches
Yes. I agree with him on those points also.

Wouldn't do for Pinky if *everybody* agreed with him!!

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
If it helps, I liked BRM - he was a hoot at times and his 'slanging match
abilities' weren't too bad at all, once he had got the hang of it!! :-)

So what happened to him. Maybe he is also slumped in the doorway of
a hifi shop in Moss Side - strangled with RBoS lamp flex:-))

Fuck nose - 'The sea does not hold for long, the wake of passing ships!'

Post by Iain M Churches
Shall I book four tickets? :-)

No, just three - I want to be able to enjoy myself!! :-)

Post by Iain M Churches
I have a shellac transfer de-clicking session in progress.
I will host it if it comes out well.

Lovely - look forward to it!!

[Stewart Pinkerton]

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
Yes. I agree with him on those points also.

Wouldn't do for Pinky if *everybody* agreed with him!!

OH YES, IT WOULD!

Ah, I see what you mean................ :-)

[Iain M Churches]

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
The group will soon be small enough to form a string quartet:-)

Or big enough to form a sextet? :-)

If you want a sextet we had better start recruiting:-)

I have a very good friend, a professional cellist,
who would be an excellent member.
I call him a Russian, but he was actually
born in a village not far from Kiev.

That makes him a real Ukrainian:-))

Post by Keith G
Oh, that *is* so very Catholic - have fun doing it (anything) then have to
feel bad about it afterwards!! (That's so Catholic it's almost *Jewish*!!
;-)

I was talking this morning to a pal of mine who records his local church
choir - just as Arny does. He said, "I feel I need to set a much higher
standard than you (that's me!) might do, when you make recordings
just for mere mortals to listen to. I record for ecclesiastical purposes.
I must assume that the Lord at least a doctorate in music, and
perfect pitch:-)) "

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
Someone on the broadscaster's group said "You should not post anything
which you would not allow your mother, your managing director, or your
priest to read"

Well me dear old mum (who was a Catholic) is dead and gone and I *was* the
MD, so that leaves the field pretty open for me dunnit? :-)
Wouldn't do for Pinky if *everybody* agreed with him!!

No, indeed not:-))))

Post by Keith G
Fuck nose - 'The sea does not hold for long, the wake of passing ships!'

So let's hope he went on to better things. RAT? :-)))

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
Shall I book four tickets? :-)

No, just three - I want to be able to enjoy myself!! :-)

I think that could be easily ensured. Four tickets but only
three parachutes:-)

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
I have a shellac transfer de-clicking session in progress.
I will host it if it comes out well.

Lovely - look forward to it!!

It's coming along nicely.

Iain

[Keith G]

Post by Iain M Churches
That makes him a real Ukrainian:-))

:-)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G
Fuck nose - 'The sea does not hold for long, the wake of passing ships!'

So let's hope he went on to better things. RAT? :-)))

No, probably went back to fleecing soppy Yank tourists!! ;-)

Post by Iain M Churches

Post by Keith G

Post by Iain M Churches
Shall I book four tickets? :-)

No, just three - I want to be able to enjoy myself!! :-)

I think that could be easily ensured. Four tickets but only
three parachutes:-)

Oooh! I'll tell her you said that!!

[Signal]

Post by Iain M Churches
Morning K the K
You did not reply to my e-mail about the
"Valve amp basics" text, so presumably it does
not interest you.
I get the feeling you are falling into line
behind Oinkie, slowly but surely.
Maybe that's a tactical necessity
if you want to maintain
a popular presence on UKRA:-))
I feel you paid me no compliment in comparing
me to the Irishman, whoever he was.
I am on holiday now - three glorious months.
Don mentioned that he had been to Iceland,
- a country I have never visited. It's incredibly
beautiful. I found out this morning that there
is a company that flies a small ten-seater
propeller aircraft from Malmo in Sweden to
Iceland stopping off for refuelling in Norway.
I am going to book a round-trip for two
if there are any tickets still available this season.

Don't miss the tectonic plates.. they're very special.. :-)