[Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

[Tony de Sa]

sunil dsouza <dsouzamail at gmail.com>

Dear Percy,
I have read your views on GoaNet on above subject and i also feel that

present state of infrastructure is not sufficient ....
(truncated)

Are all the learned/ educated

*academicians * asleep?

Dear Mr. de Souza,
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.


Comment:
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

-Soter

[colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )]

Well said, SOTER!!

BTW: The said Act is not an "administrative act" that was enacted by
any Department or "passed by any Sibal". It was enacted (passed) by
Parliament.

jc

Tony wrote: Please refer to the Central Right to Education Act with
regard to the number of school working hours. When Kapil Sibal passed
the act,

Post by Tony de Sa
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
-Soter

[colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )]

Well said, SOTER!!

BTW: The said Act is not an "administrative act" that was enacted by
any Department or "passed by any Sibal". It was enacted (passed) by
Parliament.

jc

Tony wrote: Please refer to the Central Right to Education Act with
regard to the number of school working hours. When Kapil Sibal passed
the act,

Post by Tony de Sa
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
-Soter

[colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )]

Well said, SOTER!!

BTW: The said Act is not an "administrative act" that was enacted by
any Department or "passed by any Sibal". It was enacted (passed) by
Parliament.

jc

Tony wrote: Please refer to the Central Right to Education Act with
regard to the number of school working hours. When Kapil Sibal passed
the act,

Post by Tony de Sa
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
-Soter

[colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )]

Well said, SOTER!!

BTW: The said Act is not an "administrative act" that was enacted by
any Department or "passed by any Sibal". It was enacted (passed) by
Parliament.

jc

Tony wrote: Please refer to the Central Right to Education Act with
regard to the number of school working hours. When Kapil Sibal passed
the act,

Post by Tony de Sa
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
-Soter

[colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )]

Well said, SOTER!!

BTW: The said Act is not an "administrative act" that was enacted by
any Department or "passed by any Sibal". It was enacted (passed) by
Parliament.

jc

Tony wrote: Please refer to the Central Right to Education Act with
regard to the number of school working hours. When Kapil Sibal passed
the act,

Post by Tony de Sa
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
-Soter

[colaco1 at gmail.com (J. Colaco )]

Well said, SOTER!!

BTW: The said Act is not an "administrative act" that was enacted by
any Department or "passed by any Sibal". It was enacted (passed) by
Parliament.

jc

Tony wrote: Please refer to the Central Right to Education Act with
regard to the number of school working hours. When Kapil Sibal passed
the act,

Post by Tony de Sa
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?
-Soter

[Tony de Sa]

@ Soter :
I was merely explaining why increased hours of schooling are sought to be
implemented.
The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premises
in order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by using the library
and other
resources which the teacher may not have at home. It is also time for
students to do
their home work and get their doubts and difficulties settled by consulting
the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to
use the library and computer resources. It is a time for remedial teaching.

If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to
offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and commute for
their own
reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it

suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of
Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher
absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because teachers
want to
finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas sweets. It is
no
joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling
'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers have
towards the work ethic.
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for
co-curricular activities and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the
tuition business, LIC business and various other businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this.
Could you suggest a way to curb this other than full day school?

Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,
elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for instance.
Students
and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro everyday in
worse
crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee, whether
teacher or
humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught
in their schools there are differing views. One is that the school ought to
be fully
equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and
realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is that a student is a
full time
student till he/ she completes school education and should concentrate on
the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could argue till the
cows come home and still argue more.

May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are
some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load and
then
do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the rotters.

[Tony de Sa]

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[lenny dsouza]

With all due respects to all what he has written, its looks very good on paper.
we need to look at the childs mind also. Going to school and for?working is
different.

I?also agree that there is a saturation point in the mind, where you can take
that much only. I have been to full day school and a half day school. I would
prefer to have the half day school. The reason is that i have time for other
activities. Playing at school and at home is different. if some one has been to
Full day and half day they will understand. Just because you want the teaching
staff to work the full day or you think its a vacation job, i think its wrong.

As far as taking tutions, no one has put a gun on the parents head to send their
children for tutions. If they are going its only because they want to go and
secure better marks. Today if tutions and classes are doing bussiness, its only
because we are trying to push our kids. While teachers lose interest as they
know kids will be doing the same thing in tutions and classes. If this is stop;
and in a class where the kids?do fare?badly, I am sure the principal will pull
up the teacher as to whats wrong??? and teachers are the last one to get their
names disgraced.
The main reason I see that parents want a full time school is because they are
both working and need the child to be under some care and just because of this
parents are opting for full time school. Its an old proven thing that if the
child come home in the afternoon he plays out and come only after dark does not
study. so they think if the kid is in school he/she will study.


Its time parents learns that cutting off cable television or internet will not
help their kids to study. Its only when you hide things that you want it more,
not when its always available. Every parent needs to think whats good for their
kids as they know best.


I will urge all parents to see whats good for their kids before they choose a
school, your child future is in your hands first.

?




________________________________
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 6:15:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[lenny dsouza]

With all due respects to all what he has written, its looks very good on paper.
we need to look at the childs mind also. Going to school and for?working is
different.

I?also agree that there is a saturation point in the mind, where you can take
that much only. I have been to full day school and a half day school. I would
prefer to have the half day school. The reason is that i have time for other
activities. Playing at school and at home is different. if some one has been to
Full day and half day they will understand. Just because you want the teaching
staff to work the full day or you think its a vacation job, i think its wrong.

As far as taking tutions, no one has put a gun on the parents head to send their
children for tutions. If they are going its only because they want to go and
secure better marks. Today if tutions and classes are doing bussiness, its only
because we are trying to push our kids. While teachers lose interest as they
know kids will be doing the same thing in tutions and classes. If this is stop;
and in a class where the kids?do fare?badly, I am sure the principal will pull
up the teacher as to whats wrong??? and teachers are the last one to get their
names disgraced.
The main reason I see that parents want a full time school is because they are
both working and need the child to be under some care and just because of this
parents are opting for full time school. Its an old proven thing that if the
child come home in the afternoon he plays out and come only after dark does not
study. so they think if the kid is in school he/she will study.


Its time parents learns that cutting off cable television or internet will not
help their kids to study. Its only when you hide things that you want it more,
not when its always available. Every parent needs to think whats good for their
kids as they know best.


I will urge all parents to see whats good for their kids before they choose a
school, your child future is in your hands first.

?




________________________________
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 6:15:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[lenny dsouza]

With all due respects to all what he has written, its looks very good on paper.
we need to look at the childs mind also. Going to school and for?working is
different.

I?also agree that there is a saturation point in the mind, where you can take
that much only. I have been to full day school and a half day school. I would
prefer to have the half day school. The reason is that i have time for other
activities. Playing at school and at home is different. if some one has been to
Full day and half day they will understand. Just because you want the teaching
staff to work the full day or you think its a vacation job, i think its wrong.

As far as taking tutions, no one has put a gun on the parents head to send their
children for tutions. If they are going its only because they want to go and
secure better marks. Today if tutions and classes are doing bussiness, its only
because we are trying to push our kids. While teachers lose interest as they
know kids will be doing the same thing in tutions and classes. If this is stop;
and in a class where the kids?do fare?badly, I am sure the principal will pull
up the teacher as to whats wrong??? and teachers are the last one to get their
names disgraced.
The main reason I see that parents want a full time school is because they are
both working and need the child to be under some care and just because of this
parents are opting for full time school. Its an old proven thing that if the
child come home in the afternoon he plays out and come only after dark does not
study. so they think if the kid is in school he/she will study.


Its time parents learns that cutting off cable television or internet will not
help their kids to study. Its only when you hide things that you want it more,
not when its always available. Every parent needs to think whats good for their
kids as they know best.


I will urge all parents to see whats good for their kids before they choose a
school, your child future is in your hands first.

?




________________________________
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 6:15:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[lenny dsouza]

With all due respects to all what he has written, its looks very good on paper.
we need to look at the childs mind also. Going to school and for?working is
different.

I?also agree that there is a saturation point in the mind, where you can take
that much only. I have been to full day school and a half day school. I would
prefer to have the half day school. The reason is that i have time for other
activities. Playing at school and at home is different. if some one has been to
Full day and half day they will understand. Just because you want the teaching
staff to work the full day or you think its a vacation job, i think its wrong.

As far as taking tutions, no one has put a gun on the parents head to send their
children for tutions. If they are going its only because they want to go and
secure better marks. Today if tutions and classes are doing bussiness, its only
because we are trying to push our kids. While teachers lose interest as they
know kids will be doing the same thing in tutions and classes. If this is stop;
and in a class where the kids?do fare?badly, I am sure the principal will pull
up the teacher as to whats wrong??? and teachers are the last one to get their
names disgraced.
The main reason I see that parents want a full time school is because they are
both working and need the child to be under some care and just because of this
parents are opting for full time school. Its an old proven thing that if the
child come home in the afternoon he plays out and come only after dark does not
study. so they think if the kid is in school he/she will study.


Its time parents learns that cutting off cable television or internet will not
help their kids to study. Its only when you hide things that you want it more,
not when its always available. Every parent needs to think whats good for their
kids as they know best.


I will urge all parents to see whats good for their kids before they choose a
school, your child future is in your hands first.

?




________________________________
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 6:15:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[lenny dsouza]

With all due respects to all what he has written, its looks very good on paper.
we need to look at the childs mind also. Going to school and for?working is
different.

I?also agree that there is a saturation point in the mind, where you can take
that much only. I have been to full day school and a half day school. I would
prefer to have the half day school. The reason is that i have time for other
activities. Playing at school and at home is different. if some one has been to
Full day and half day they will understand. Just because you want the teaching
staff to work the full day or you think its a vacation job, i think its wrong.

As far as taking tutions, no one has put a gun on the parents head to send their
children for tutions. If they are going its only because they want to go and
secure better marks. Today if tutions and classes are doing bussiness, its only
because we are trying to push our kids. While teachers lose interest as they
know kids will be doing the same thing in tutions and classes. If this is stop;
and in a class where the kids?do fare?badly, I am sure the principal will pull
up the teacher as to whats wrong??? and teachers are the last one to get their
names disgraced.
The main reason I see that parents want a full time school is because they are
both working and need the child to be under some care and just because of this
parents are opting for full time school. Its an old proven thing that if the
child come home in the afternoon he plays out and come only after dark does not
study. so they think if the kid is in school he/she will study.


Its time parents learns that cutting off cable television or internet will not
help their kids to study. Its only when you hide things that you want it more,
not when its always available. Every parent needs to think whats good for their
kids as they know best.


I will urge all parents to see whats good for their kids before they choose a
school, your child future is in your hands first.

?




________________________________
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 6:15:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[lenny dsouza]

With all due respects to all what he has written, its looks very good on paper.
we need to look at the childs mind also. Going to school and for?working is
different.

I?also agree that there is a saturation point in the mind, where you can take
that much only. I have been to full day school and a half day school. I would
prefer to have the half day school. The reason is that i have time for other
activities. Playing at school and at home is different. if some one has been to
Full day and half day they will understand. Just because you want the teaching
staff to work the full day or you think its a vacation job, i think its wrong.

As far as taking tutions, no one has put a gun on the parents head to send their
children for tutions. If they are going its only because they want to go and
secure better marks. Today if tutions and classes are doing bussiness, its only
because we are trying to push our kids. While teachers lose interest as they
know kids will be doing the same thing in tutions and classes. If this is stop;
and in a class where the kids?do fare?badly, I am sure the principal will pull
up the teacher as to whats wrong??? and teachers are the last one to get their
names disgraced.
The main reason I see that parents want a full time school is because they are
both working and need the child to be under some care and just because of this
parents are opting for full time school. Its an old proven thing that if the
child come home in the afternoon he plays out and come only after dark does not
study. so they think if the kid is in school he/she will study.


Its time parents learns that cutting off cable television or internet will not
help their kids to study. Its only when you hide things that you want it more,
not when its always available. Every parent needs to think whats good for their
kids as they know best.


I will urge all parents to see whats good for their kids before they choose a
school, your child future is in your hands first.

?




________________________________
From: Tony de Sa <tonyde.sa at gmail.com>
To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sat, 5 March, 2011 6:15:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[Tony de Sa]

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[Tony de Sa]

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[Tony de Sa]

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[Tony de Sa]

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[Tony de Sa]

Prabhakar Timble, educationist, has written a well reasoned article in
today's Herald advocating full day school which more or less is in
consonance with my views

http://www.oheraldo.in/newscategory/Opinions/14

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
"The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premisesin order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by
using the libraryand otherresources which the teacher may not have at home.
It is also time for students to do their home work and get their doubts and
difficulties settled by consulting the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to use the library and computer resources. It is a time for
remedial teaching.

comment:
All well on paper. Several schools have space contraints. Students are
recreating on the roads in the city.


If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and
commute for
their own reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it
suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

comment:
Teachers leave their homes at 6 or 6.30 a., and reach back at 3 or 4p.m.
Damn easy with out transport system isn't it?
Surprisingly you have not mentioned the time in correcting papers, board
corrections in vacations, filling of other forms, marks sheets, schood day
prep. etc


TW
Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because
teachers
want to finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas
sweets. It is
no joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers
have
towards the work ethic.

Comment:
Who does not do this? Do you find people in government offices in december?
Why single out teachers?
Could you tell me whteher there is ethics in the homes today. How can we
expect it of teachers?

TW
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for co-curricular activities
and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the tuition business, LIC business and various other
businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this. Could you suggest a way to curb this other than
full day school?

Comment:
Ask government servants and see. Teachers involved in side business is an
exageration. Do not generalise.

TW:
Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for
instance.
Students and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro
everyday in
worse crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee,
whether
teacher or humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

comment:
This is the basic problem. bec' it happens in othr parts it should happen in
Goa. What is the transport situation in other parts?

TW.
Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught in their schools there are differing views. One is that the
school ought to
be fully equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is
that a student is a
full time student till he/ she completes school education and should
concentrate on the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could
argue till thecows come home and still argue more.

Comment:
As a citizen we are expected to do many things. Do we do it? Schools ougth
to be equipped etc. is all fine on paper. You forget about several teachers
doing social work in thir free time or even developing other skills.


May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load
and
then do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the
rotters.

Comment:
Exactly! You have generalised the existence of rotters by smearuing the
whole teaching community. It is not as easy to manange a school nor is it
easy to teach in a country where the rights and duties go hay wire.
What was wrong with the present system in Goa?

-Soter

[SOTER]

Lenny has hit the right chord in this debate on full day schooling. With due respect to all the views shared, we are masters at moulding our opinion based on media hype. Do only those students going for coaching classes excell?
Parents want to dump their children onto someone while they are at work. The families are in shambles and the parents expect the schools to instill discipline in the spoiled brats. Instilling discipline is also dangerous for a teacher because it could attract any accusation under child abuse laws. To understand the misery of our education today and the criminality so to say in students, one has to first hand experience it.
This cut and paste approaches from foreign systems bychild rights activists and educationists has spelled disaster in the education system.

-Soter

[pinheiro]

What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[floriano]

Dear Agnelo et al,

On the topic of education and schooling, I would like to draw your kind
attention to the Goa Su-Raj Party's ROAD MAP FOR GOA Chapter IX -EDUCATION
which is available at www.goasu-raj.org for download.

Presently, there is a hue and cry from parents re 'full day school' as well
as extending primary schooling (in Konkani) upto 8 th. standard and to upto
10th standard there from. This is going to be a DISASTER FOR GOA AND GOANS.
Better, this rascal government with a literal UNPAD as its EDUCATION
MINISTER, should be rendered amputated from all ends.

I strongly believe that GRA will do it.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "pinheiro" <gift.pinheiro at gmail.com>
To: "GOA Net" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:10 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?


What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face
challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be
upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad
rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will
translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less
traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good
education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not
rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education
only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day
school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and
infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school
timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[floriano]

Dear Agnelo et al,

On the topic of education and schooling, I would like to draw your kind
attention to the Goa Su-Raj Party's ROAD MAP FOR GOA Chapter IX -EDUCATION
which is available at www.goasu-raj.org for download.

Presently, there is a hue and cry from parents re 'full day school' as well
as extending primary schooling (in Konkani) upto 8 th. standard and to upto
10th standard there from. This is going to be a DISASTER FOR GOA AND GOANS.
Better, this rascal government with a literal UNPAD as its EDUCATION
MINISTER, should be rendered amputated from all ends.

I strongly believe that GRA will do it.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "pinheiro" <gift.pinheiro at gmail.com>
To: "GOA Net" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:10 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?


What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face
challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be
upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad
rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will
translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less
traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good
education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not
rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education
only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day
school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and
infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school
timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[floriano]

Dear Agnelo et al,

On the topic of education and schooling, I would like to draw your kind
attention to the Goa Su-Raj Party's ROAD MAP FOR GOA Chapter IX -EDUCATION
which is available at www.goasu-raj.org for download.

Presently, there is a hue and cry from parents re 'full day school' as well
as extending primary schooling (in Konkani) upto 8 th. standard and to upto
10th standard there from. This is going to be a DISASTER FOR GOA AND GOANS.
Better, this rascal government with a literal UNPAD as its EDUCATION
MINISTER, should be rendered amputated from all ends.

I strongly believe that GRA will do it.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "pinheiro" <gift.pinheiro at gmail.com>
To: "GOA Net" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:10 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?


What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face
challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be
upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad
rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will
translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less
traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good
education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not
rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education
only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day
school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and
infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school
timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[floriano]

Dear Agnelo et al,

On the topic of education and schooling, I would like to draw your kind
attention to the Goa Su-Raj Party's ROAD MAP FOR GOA Chapter IX -EDUCATION
which is available at www.goasu-raj.org for download.

Presently, there is a hue and cry from parents re 'full day school' as well
as extending primary schooling (in Konkani) upto 8 th. standard and to upto
10th standard there from. This is going to be a DISASTER FOR GOA AND GOANS.
Better, this rascal government with a literal UNPAD as its EDUCATION
MINISTER, should be rendered amputated from all ends.

I strongly believe that GRA will do it.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "pinheiro" <gift.pinheiro at gmail.com>
To: "GOA Net" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:10 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?


What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face
challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be
upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad
rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will
translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less
traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good
education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not
rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education
only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day
school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and
infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school
timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[floriano]

Dear Agnelo et al,

On the topic of education and schooling, I would like to draw your kind
attention to the Goa Su-Raj Party's ROAD MAP FOR GOA Chapter IX -EDUCATION
which is available at www.goasu-raj.org for download.

Presently, there is a hue and cry from parents re 'full day school' as well
as extending primary schooling (in Konkani) upto 8 th. standard and to upto
10th standard there from. This is going to be a DISASTER FOR GOA AND GOANS.
Better, this rascal government with a literal UNPAD as its EDUCATION
MINISTER, should be rendered amputated from all ends.

I strongly believe that GRA will do it.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "pinheiro" <gift.pinheiro at gmail.com>
To: "GOA Net" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:10 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?


What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face
challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be
upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad
rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will
translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less
traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good
education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not
rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education
only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day
school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and
infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school
timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[floriano]

Dear Agnelo et al,

On the topic of education and schooling, I would like to draw your kind
attention to the Goa Su-Raj Party's ROAD MAP FOR GOA Chapter IX -EDUCATION
which is available at www.goasu-raj.org for download.

Presently, there is a hue and cry from parents re 'full day school' as well
as extending primary schooling (in Konkani) upto 8 th. standard and to upto
10th standard there from. This is going to be a DISASTER FOR GOA AND GOANS.
Better, this rascal government with a literal UNPAD as its EDUCATION
MINISTER, should be rendered amputated from all ends.

I strongly believe that GRA will do it.

Cheers
floriano
goasuraj
9890470896
www.goasu-raj.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "pinheiro" <gift.pinheiro at gmail.com>
To: "GOA Net" <goanet at lists.goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:10 AM
Subject: [Goanet] Full day school in Goa, makes sense?


What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face
challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be
upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad
rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will
translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less
traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good
education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not
rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education
only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day
school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and
infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school
timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[Tony de Sa]

To all those who replied to this thread,
Viz Soter, Dr. Colaco, Agnel Pinheiro, Lenny D'Souza

I am glad to note that this thread has generated a lot of discussion. Point
is are we prepared to argue and listen to reason i.e. be receptive to
change or are we going to be bull headed and stick to our own view point and
try to score brownie points and show our skills at debate and one up man
ship?

There are a few misconceptions that a lot of people have. Full day school
does not imply school for the whole day. No Educational planners are ever
going to try even remotely to have 24 hour school as sarcastically implied
by Pinheiro. Full day school in the first place implies school for extended
hours more than the 5.5 hours that the school meets now. It does not imply
8.30 to 5.30 school. Without the introduction of the misnomer of full day
school, many schools in Goa are already working extended hours. More over,
the number of days for which the school is supposed to meet in a year in Goa
is pegged down at 220 working days. You'll be surprised to note that quite a
few schools fail to meet this basic criterion.

In the second instance, Pinheiro makes a case for increased and better
infrastructure. Good Point. However, increased infrastructure alone without
the necessary effort by students and teachers is never going to translate
into improved standards of education. There are other factors. To illustrate
this, Einstein formulated his theory of relativity when working in a dingy
patent clerk's office.

What Soter and Doc have for their frame of reference when they put forward
their arguments regarding school hours is a catholic, English/ Portuguese
student. What about the masses of rural children who form the backbone of
school education in Goa? I am not even mentioning the numbers of migrants
from different states in India who also form a sizeable proportion of
students in Goa and who in times to come will overtake Goan students in
sheer numbers alone!

Visualize a situation like this - students who come from a non-English
speaking background, first generation learners, studying in an English
medium school. How do you get these kids to study English and learn concepts
in Science, Math, History and Geography when the comprehension of English
itself is a major stumbling block? You guys want to improve standards of
education. Without this basic funda, how do you proceed? The only
opportunity most of these kids have to hear/ speak is in school. Once these
kids get home, they put the English they have learnt in school away and then
on it is Hindi, vernacular or what have you. It is only extended hours of
teaching that will remedy this situation. Not all students rate as geniuses
as Dr. Mashelkar. Extended school hours have proved them selves in such
cases and I can cite examples.

Extended hours implies things like supervised study, problem solving,
tutorials, lab work (check out how this is done at present - a group of
students or the whole class has the experiment demoed to them and that is
the sum total of practical work), games, music, art and dance. So
fundamental principles of learning by doing are sacrificed at the altar of
teacher convenience? Today, teachers are not even prepared to do
substitution - which the Supreme Court has in clear cut terms stated that it
is a part of the teachers duties.

Elsewhere in the rest of the country, students study for extended hours. The
effects are of course telling. Count the number of Goan IAS, Goan IPS, IFS
and other civil services. We do not even have numbers in the same
proportion.

And Doc, when you talk about pseudo educators so disparagingly, you are
asserting, of course, that you have all the qualifications and experience to
comment on school education?

[Tony de Sa]

sunil dsouza <dsouzamail at gmail.com>

Dear Percy,
I have read your views on GoaNet on above subject and i also feel that

present state of infrastructure is not sufficient ....
(truncated)

Are all the learned/ educated

*academicians * asleep?

Dear Mr. de Souza,
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.


Comment:
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

-Soter

[Tony de Sa]

@ Soter :
I was merely explaining why increased hours of schooling are sought to be
implemented.
The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premises
in order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by using the library
and other
resources which the teacher may not have at home. It is also time for
students to do
their home work and get their doubts and difficulties settled by consulting
the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to
use the library and computer resources. It is a time for remedial teaching.

If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to
offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and commute for
their own
reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it

suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of
Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher
absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because teachers
want to
finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas sweets. It is
no
joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling
'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers have
towards the work ethic.
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for
co-curricular activities and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the
tuition business, LIC business and various other businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this.
Could you suggest a way to curb this other than full day school?

Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,
elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for instance.
Students
and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro everyday in
worse
crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee, whether
teacher or
humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught
in their schools there are differing views. One is that the school ought to
be fully
equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and
realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is that a student is a
full time
student till he/ she completes school education and should concentrate on
the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could argue till the
cows come home and still argue more.

May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are
some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load and
then
do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the rotters.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
"The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premisesin order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by
using the libraryand otherresources which the teacher may not have at home.
It is also time for students to do their home work and get their doubts and
difficulties settled by consulting the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to use the library and computer resources. It is a time for
remedial teaching.

comment:
All well on paper. Several schools have space contraints. Students are
recreating on the roads in the city.


If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and
commute for
their own reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it
suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

comment:
Teachers leave their homes at 6 or 6.30 a., and reach back at 3 or 4p.m.
Damn easy with out transport system isn't it?
Surprisingly you have not mentioned the time in correcting papers, board
corrections in vacations, filling of other forms, marks sheets, schood day
prep. etc


TW
Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because
teachers
want to finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas
sweets. It is
no joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers
have
towards the work ethic.

Comment:
Who does not do this? Do you find people in government offices in december?
Why single out teachers?
Could you tell me whteher there is ethics in the homes today. How can we
expect it of teachers?

TW
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for co-curricular activities
and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the tuition business, LIC business and various other
businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this. Could you suggest a way to curb this other than
full day school?

Comment:
Ask government servants and see. Teachers involved in side business is an
exageration. Do not generalise.

TW:
Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for
instance.
Students and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro
everyday in
worse crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee,
whether
teacher or humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

comment:
This is the basic problem. bec' it happens in othr parts it should happen in
Goa. What is the transport situation in other parts?

TW.
Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught in their schools there are differing views. One is that the
school ought to
be fully equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is
that a student is a
full time student till he/ she completes school education and should
concentrate on the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could
argue till thecows come home and still argue more.

Comment:
As a citizen we are expected to do many things. Do we do it? Schools ougth
to be equipped etc. is all fine on paper. You forget about several teachers
doing social work in thir free time or even developing other skills.


May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load
and
then do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the
rotters.

Comment:
Exactly! You have generalised the existence of rotters by smearuing the
whole teaching community. It is not as easy to manange a school nor is it
easy to teach in a country where the rights and duties go hay wire.
What was wrong with the present system in Goa?

-Soter

[SOTER]

Lenny has hit the right chord in this debate on full day schooling. With due respect to all the views shared, we are masters at moulding our opinion based on media hype. Do only those students going for coaching classes excell?
Parents want to dump their children onto someone while they are at work. The families are in shambles and the parents expect the schools to instill discipline in the spoiled brats. Instilling discipline is also dangerous for a teacher because it could attract any accusation under child abuse laws. To understand the misery of our education today and the criminality so to say in students, one has to first hand experience it.
This cut and paste approaches from foreign systems bychild rights activists and educationists has spelled disaster in the education system.

-Soter

[pinheiro]

What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[Tony de Sa]

To all those who replied to this thread,
Viz Soter, Dr. Colaco, Agnel Pinheiro, Lenny D'Souza

I am glad to note that this thread has generated a lot of discussion. Point
is are we prepared to argue and listen to reason i.e. be receptive to
change or are we going to be bull headed and stick to our own view point and
try to score brownie points and show our skills at debate and one up man
ship?

There are a few misconceptions that a lot of people have. Full day school
does not imply school for the whole day. No Educational planners are ever
going to try even remotely to have 24 hour school as sarcastically implied
by Pinheiro. Full day school in the first place implies school for extended
hours more than the 5.5 hours that the school meets now. It does not imply
8.30 to 5.30 school. Without the introduction of the misnomer of full day
school, many schools in Goa are already working extended hours. More over,
the number of days for which the school is supposed to meet in a year in Goa
is pegged down at 220 working days. You'll be surprised to note that quite a
few schools fail to meet this basic criterion.

In the second instance, Pinheiro makes a case for increased and better
infrastructure. Good Point. However, increased infrastructure alone without
the necessary effort by students and teachers is never going to translate
into improved standards of education. There are other factors. To illustrate
this, Einstein formulated his theory of relativity when working in a dingy
patent clerk's office.

What Soter and Doc have for their frame of reference when they put forward
their arguments regarding school hours is a catholic, English/ Portuguese
student. What about the masses of rural children who form the backbone of
school education in Goa? I am not even mentioning the numbers of migrants
from different states in India who also form a sizeable proportion of
students in Goa and who in times to come will overtake Goan students in
sheer numbers alone!

Visualize a situation like this - students who come from a non-English
speaking background, first generation learners, studying in an English
medium school. How do you get these kids to study English and learn concepts
in Science, Math, History and Geography when the comprehension of English
itself is a major stumbling block? You guys want to improve standards of
education. Without this basic funda, how do you proceed? The only
opportunity most of these kids have to hear/ speak is in school. Once these
kids get home, they put the English they have learnt in school away and then
on it is Hindi, vernacular or what have you. It is only extended hours of
teaching that will remedy this situation. Not all students rate as geniuses
as Dr. Mashelkar. Extended school hours have proved them selves in such
cases and I can cite examples.

Extended hours implies things like supervised study, problem solving,
tutorials, lab work (check out how this is done at present - a group of
students or the whole class has the experiment demoed to them and that is
the sum total of practical work), games, music, art and dance. So
fundamental principles of learning by doing are sacrificed at the altar of
teacher convenience? Today, teachers are not even prepared to do
substitution - which the Supreme Court has in clear cut terms stated that it
is a part of the teachers duties.

Elsewhere in the rest of the country, students study for extended hours. The
effects are of course telling. Count the number of Goan IAS, Goan IPS, IFS
and other civil services. We do not even have numbers in the same
proportion.

And Doc, when you talk about pseudo educators so disparagingly, you are
asserting, of course, that you have all the qualifications and experience to
comment on school education?

[Tony de Sa]

sunil dsouza <dsouzamail at gmail.com>

Dear Percy,
I have read your views on GoaNet on above subject and i also feel that

present state of infrastructure is not sufficient ....
(truncated)

Are all the learned/ educated

*academicians * asleep?

Dear Mr. de Souza,
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.


Comment:
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

-Soter

[Tony de Sa]

@ Soter :
I was merely explaining why increased hours of schooling are sought to be
implemented.
The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premises
in order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by using the library
and other
resources which the teacher may not have at home. It is also time for
students to do
their home work and get their doubts and difficulties settled by consulting
the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to
use the library and computer resources. It is a time for remedial teaching.

If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to
offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and commute for
their own
reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it

suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of
Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher
absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because teachers
want to
finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas sweets. It is
no
joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling
'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers have
towards the work ethic.
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for
co-curricular activities and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the
tuition business, LIC business and various other businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this.
Could you suggest a way to curb this other than full day school?

Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,
elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for instance.
Students
and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro everyday in
worse
crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee, whether
teacher or
humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught
in their schools there are differing views. One is that the school ought to
be fully
equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and
realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is that a student is a
full time
student till he/ she completes school education and should concentrate on
the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could argue till the
cows come home and still argue more.

May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are
some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load and
then
do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the rotters.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
"The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premisesin order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by
using the libraryand otherresources which the teacher may not have at home.
It is also time for students to do their home work and get their doubts and
difficulties settled by consulting the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to use the library and computer resources. It is a time for
remedial teaching.

comment:
All well on paper. Several schools have space contraints. Students are
recreating on the roads in the city.


If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and
commute for
their own reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it
suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

comment:
Teachers leave their homes at 6 or 6.30 a., and reach back at 3 or 4p.m.
Damn easy with out transport system isn't it?
Surprisingly you have not mentioned the time in correcting papers, board
corrections in vacations, filling of other forms, marks sheets, schood day
prep. etc


TW
Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because
teachers
want to finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas
sweets. It is
no joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers
have
towards the work ethic.

Comment:
Who does not do this? Do you find people in government offices in december?
Why single out teachers?
Could you tell me whteher there is ethics in the homes today. How can we
expect it of teachers?

TW
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for co-curricular activities
and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the tuition business, LIC business and various other
businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this. Could you suggest a way to curb this other than
full day school?

Comment:
Ask government servants and see. Teachers involved in side business is an
exageration. Do not generalise.

TW:
Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for
instance.
Students and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro
everyday in
worse crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee,
whether
teacher or humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

comment:
This is the basic problem. bec' it happens in othr parts it should happen in
Goa. What is the transport situation in other parts?

TW.
Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught in their schools there are differing views. One is that the
school ought to
be fully equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is
that a student is a
full time student till he/ she completes school education and should
concentrate on the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could
argue till thecows come home and still argue more.

Comment:
As a citizen we are expected to do many things. Do we do it? Schools ougth
to be equipped etc. is all fine on paper. You forget about several teachers
doing social work in thir free time or even developing other skills.


May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load
and
then do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the
rotters.

Comment:
Exactly! You have generalised the existence of rotters by smearuing the
whole teaching community. It is not as easy to manange a school nor is it
easy to teach in a country where the rights and duties go hay wire.
What was wrong with the present system in Goa?

-Soter

[SOTER]

Lenny has hit the right chord in this debate on full day schooling. With due respect to all the views shared, we are masters at moulding our opinion based on media hype. Do only those students going for coaching classes excell?
Parents want to dump their children onto someone while they are at work. The families are in shambles and the parents expect the schools to instill discipline in the spoiled brats. Instilling discipline is also dangerous for a teacher because it could attract any accusation under child abuse laws. To understand the misery of our education today and the criminality so to say in students, one has to first hand experience it.
This cut and paste approaches from foreign systems bychild rights activists and educationists has spelled disaster in the education system.

-Soter

[pinheiro]

What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[Tony de Sa]

To all those who replied to this thread,
Viz Soter, Dr. Colaco, Agnel Pinheiro, Lenny D'Souza

I am glad to note that this thread has generated a lot of discussion. Point
is are we prepared to argue and listen to reason i.e. be receptive to
change or are we going to be bull headed and stick to our own view point and
try to score brownie points and show our skills at debate and one up man
ship?

There are a few misconceptions that a lot of people have. Full day school
does not imply school for the whole day. No Educational planners are ever
going to try even remotely to have 24 hour school as sarcastically implied
by Pinheiro. Full day school in the first place implies school for extended
hours more than the 5.5 hours that the school meets now. It does not imply
8.30 to 5.30 school. Without the introduction of the misnomer of full day
school, many schools in Goa are already working extended hours. More over,
the number of days for which the school is supposed to meet in a year in Goa
is pegged down at 220 working days. You'll be surprised to note that quite a
few schools fail to meet this basic criterion.

In the second instance, Pinheiro makes a case for increased and better
infrastructure. Good Point. However, increased infrastructure alone without
the necessary effort by students and teachers is never going to translate
into improved standards of education. There are other factors. To illustrate
this, Einstein formulated his theory of relativity when working in a dingy
patent clerk's office.

What Soter and Doc have for their frame of reference when they put forward
their arguments regarding school hours is a catholic, English/ Portuguese
student. What about the masses of rural children who form the backbone of
school education in Goa? I am not even mentioning the numbers of migrants
from different states in India who also form a sizeable proportion of
students in Goa and who in times to come will overtake Goan students in
sheer numbers alone!

Visualize a situation like this - students who come from a non-English
speaking background, first generation learners, studying in an English
medium school. How do you get these kids to study English and learn concepts
in Science, Math, History and Geography when the comprehension of English
itself is a major stumbling block? You guys want to improve standards of
education. Without this basic funda, how do you proceed? The only
opportunity most of these kids have to hear/ speak is in school. Once these
kids get home, they put the English they have learnt in school away and then
on it is Hindi, vernacular or what have you. It is only extended hours of
teaching that will remedy this situation. Not all students rate as geniuses
as Dr. Mashelkar. Extended school hours have proved them selves in such
cases and I can cite examples.

Extended hours implies things like supervised study, problem solving,
tutorials, lab work (check out how this is done at present - a group of
students or the whole class has the experiment demoed to them and that is
the sum total of practical work), games, music, art and dance. So
fundamental principles of learning by doing are sacrificed at the altar of
teacher convenience? Today, teachers are not even prepared to do
substitution - which the Supreme Court has in clear cut terms stated that it
is a part of the teachers duties.

Elsewhere in the rest of the country, students study for extended hours. The
effects are of course telling. Count the number of Goan IAS, Goan IPS, IFS
and other civil services. We do not even have numbers in the same
proportion.

And Doc, when you talk about pseudo educators so disparagingly, you are
asserting, of course, that you have all the qualifications and experience to
comment on school education?

[Tony de Sa]

sunil dsouza <dsouzamail at gmail.com>

Dear Percy,
I have read your views on GoaNet on above subject and i also feel that

present state of infrastructure is not sufficient ....
(truncated)

Are all the learned/ educated

*academicians * asleep?

Dear Mr. de Souza,
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.


Comment:
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

-Soter

[Tony de Sa]

@ Soter :
I was merely explaining why increased hours of schooling are sought to be
implemented.
The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premises
in order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by using the library
and other
resources which the teacher may not have at home. It is also time for
students to do
their home work and get their doubts and difficulties settled by consulting
the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to
use the library and computer resources. It is a time for remedial teaching.

If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to
offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and commute for
their own
reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it

suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of
Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher
absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because teachers
want to
finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas sweets. It is
no
joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling
'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers have
towards the work ethic.
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for
co-curricular activities and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the
tuition business, LIC business and various other businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this.
Could you suggest a way to curb this other than full day school?

Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,
elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for instance.
Students
and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro everyday in
worse
crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee, whether
teacher or
humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught
in their schools there are differing views. One is that the school ought to
be fully
equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and
realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is that a student is a
full time
student till he/ she completes school education and should concentrate on
the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could argue till the
cows come home and still argue more.

May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are
some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load and
then
do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the rotters.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
"The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premisesin order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by
using the libraryand otherresources which the teacher may not have at home.
It is also time for students to do their home work and get their doubts and
difficulties settled by consulting the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to use the library and computer resources. It is a time for
remedial teaching.

comment:
All well on paper. Several schools have space contraints. Students are
recreating on the roads in the city.


If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and
commute for
their own reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it
suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

comment:
Teachers leave their homes at 6 or 6.30 a., and reach back at 3 or 4p.m.
Damn easy with out transport system isn't it?
Surprisingly you have not mentioned the time in correcting papers, board
corrections in vacations, filling of other forms, marks sheets, schood day
prep. etc


TW
Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because
teachers
want to finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas
sweets. It is
no joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers
have
towards the work ethic.

Comment:
Who does not do this? Do you find people in government offices in december?
Why single out teachers?
Could you tell me whteher there is ethics in the homes today. How can we
expect it of teachers?

TW
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for co-curricular activities
and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the tuition business, LIC business and various other
businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this. Could you suggest a way to curb this other than
full day school?

Comment:
Ask government servants and see. Teachers involved in side business is an
exageration. Do not generalise.

TW:
Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for
instance.
Students and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro
everyday in
worse crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee,
whether
teacher or humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

comment:
This is the basic problem. bec' it happens in othr parts it should happen in
Goa. What is the transport situation in other parts?

TW.
Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught in their schools there are differing views. One is that the
school ought to
be fully equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is
that a student is a
full time student till he/ she completes school education and should
concentrate on the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could
argue till thecows come home and still argue more.

Comment:
As a citizen we are expected to do many things. Do we do it? Schools ougth
to be equipped etc. is all fine on paper. You forget about several teachers
doing social work in thir free time or even developing other skills.


May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load
and
then do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the
rotters.

Comment:
Exactly! You have generalised the existence of rotters by smearuing the
whole teaching community. It is not as easy to manange a school nor is it
easy to teach in a country where the rights and duties go hay wire.
What was wrong with the present system in Goa?

-Soter

[SOTER]

Lenny has hit the right chord in this debate on full day schooling. With due respect to all the views shared, we are masters at moulding our opinion based on media hype. Do only those students going for coaching classes excell?
Parents want to dump their children onto someone while they are at work. The families are in shambles and the parents expect the schools to instill discipline in the spoiled brats. Instilling discipline is also dangerous for a teacher because it could attract any accusation under child abuse laws. To understand the misery of our education today and the criminality so to say in students, one has to first hand experience it.
This cut and paste approaches from foreign systems bychild rights activists and educationists has spelled disaster in the education system.

-Soter

[pinheiro]

What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[Tony de Sa]

To all those who replied to this thread,
Viz Soter, Dr. Colaco, Agnel Pinheiro, Lenny D'Souza

I am glad to note that this thread has generated a lot of discussion. Point
is are we prepared to argue and listen to reason i.e. be receptive to
change or are we going to be bull headed and stick to our own view point and
try to score brownie points and show our skills at debate and one up man
ship?

There are a few misconceptions that a lot of people have. Full day school
does not imply school for the whole day. No Educational planners are ever
going to try even remotely to have 24 hour school as sarcastically implied
by Pinheiro. Full day school in the first place implies school for extended
hours more than the 5.5 hours that the school meets now. It does not imply
8.30 to 5.30 school. Without the introduction of the misnomer of full day
school, many schools in Goa are already working extended hours. More over,
the number of days for which the school is supposed to meet in a year in Goa
is pegged down at 220 working days. You'll be surprised to note that quite a
few schools fail to meet this basic criterion.

In the second instance, Pinheiro makes a case for increased and better
infrastructure. Good Point. However, increased infrastructure alone without
the necessary effort by students and teachers is never going to translate
into improved standards of education. There are other factors. To illustrate
this, Einstein formulated his theory of relativity when working in a dingy
patent clerk's office.

What Soter and Doc have for their frame of reference when they put forward
their arguments regarding school hours is a catholic, English/ Portuguese
student. What about the masses of rural children who form the backbone of
school education in Goa? I am not even mentioning the numbers of migrants
from different states in India who also form a sizeable proportion of
students in Goa and who in times to come will overtake Goan students in
sheer numbers alone!

Visualize a situation like this - students who come from a non-English
speaking background, first generation learners, studying in an English
medium school. How do you get these kids to study English and learn concepts
in Science, Math, History and Geography when the comprehension of English
itself is a major stumbling block? You guys want to improve standards of
education. Without this basic funda, how do you proceed? The only
opportunity most of these kids have to hear/ speak is in school. Once these
kids get home, they put the English they have learnt in school away and then
on it is Hindi, vernacular or what have you. It is only extended hours of
teaching that will remedy this situation. Not all students rate as geniuses
as Dr. Mashelkar. Extended school hours have proved them selves in such
cases and I can cite examples.

Extended hours implies things like supervised study, problem solving,
tutorials, lab work (check out how this is done at present - a group of
students or the whole class has the experiment demoed to them and that is
the sum total of practical work), games, music, art and dance. So
fundamental principles of learning by doing are sacrificed at the altar of
teacher convenience? Today, teachers are not even prepared to do
substitution - which the Supreme Court has in clear cut terms stated that it
is a part of the teachers duties.

Elsewhere in the rest of the country, students study for extended hours. The
effects are of course telling. Count the number of Goan IAS, Goan IPS, IFS
and other civil services. We do not even have numbers in the same
proportion.

And Doc, when you talk about pseudo educators so disparagingly, you are
asserting, of course, that you have all the qualifications and experience to
comment on school education?

[Tony de Sa]

sunil dsouza <dsouzamail at gmail.com>

Dear Percy,
I have read your views on GoaNet on above subject and i also feel that

present state of infrastructure is not sufficient ....
(truncated)

Are all the learned/ educated

*academicians * asleep?

Dear Mr. de Souza,
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.


Comment:
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

-Soter

[Tony de Sa]

@ Soter :
I was merely explaining why increased hours of schooling are sought to be
implemented.
The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premises
in order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by using the library
and other
resources which the teacher may not have at home. It is also time for
students to do
their home work and get their doubts and difficulties settled by consulting
the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to
use the library and computer resources. It is a time for remedial teaching.

If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to
offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and commute for
their own
reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it

suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of
Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher
absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because teachers
want to
finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas sweets. It is
no
joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling
'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers have
towards the work ethic.
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for
co-curricular activities and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the
tuition business, LIC business and various other businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this.
Could you suggest a way to curb this other than full day school?

Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,
elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for instance.
Students
and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro everyday in
worse
crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee, whether
teacher or
humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught
in their schools there are differing views. One is that the school ought to
be fully
equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and
realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is that a student is a
full time
student till he/ she completes school education and should concentrate on
the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could argue till the
cows come home and still argue more.

May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are
some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load and
then
do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the rotters.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
"The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premisesin order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by
using the libraryand otherresources which the teacher may not have at home.
It is also time for students to do their home work and get their doubts and
difficulties settled by consulting the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to use the library and computer resources. It is a time for
remedial teaching.

comment:
All well on paper. Several schools have space contraints. Students are
recreating on the roads in the city.


If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and
commute for
their own reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it
suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

comment:
Teachers leave their homes at 6 or 6.30 a., and reach back at 3 or 4p.m.
Damn easy with out transport system isn't it?
Surprisingly you have not mentioned the time in correcting papers, board
corrections in vacations, filling of other forms, marks sheets, schood day
prep. etc


TW
Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because
teachers
want to finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas
sweets. It is
no joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers
have
towards the work ethic.

Comment:
Who does not do this? Do you find people in government offices in december?
Why single out teachers?
Could you tell me whteher there is ethics in the homes today. How can we
expect it of teachers?

TW
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for co-curricular activities
and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the tuition business, LIC business and various other
businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this. Could you suggest a way to curb this other than
full day school?

Comment:
Ask government servants and see. Teachers involved in side business is an
exageration. Do not generalise.

TW:
Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for
instance.
Students and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro
everyday in
worse crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee,
whether
teacher or humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

comment:
This is the basic problem. bec' it happens in othr parts it should happen in
Goa. What is the transport situation in other parts?

TW.
Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught in their schools there are differing views. One is that the
school ought to
be fully equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is
that a student is a
full time student till he/ she completes school education and should
concentrate on the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could
argue till thecows come home and still argue more.

Comment:
As a citizen we are expected to do many things. Do we do it? Schools ougth
to be equipped etc. is all fine on paper. You forget about several teachers
doing social work in thir free time or even developing other skills.


May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load
and
then do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the
rotters.

Comment:
Exactly! You have generalised the existence of rotters by smearuing the
whole teaching community. It is not as easy to manange a school nor is it
easy to teach in a country where the rights and duties go hay wire.
What was wrong with the present system in Goa?

-Soter

[SOTER]

Lenny has hit the right chord in this debate on full day schooling. With due respect to all the views shared, we are masters at moulding our opinion based on media hype. Do only those students going for coaching classes excell?
Parents want to dump their children onto someone while they are at work. The families are in shambles and the parents expect the schools to instill discipline in the spoiled brats. Instilling discipline is also dangerous for a teacher because it could attract any accusation under child abuse laws. To understand the misery of our education today and the criminality so to say in students, one has to first hand experience it.
This cut and paste approaches from foreign systems bychild rights activists and educationists has spelled disaster in the education system.

-Soter

[pinheiro]

What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[Tony de Sa]

To all those who replied to this thread,
Viz Soter, Dr. Colaco, Agnel Pinheiro, Lenny D'Souza

I am glad to note that this thread has generated a lot of discussion. Point
is are we prepared to argue and listen to reason i.e. be receptive to
change or are we going to be bull headed and stick to our own view point and
try to score brownie points and show our skills at debate and one up man
ship?

There are a few misconceptions that a lot of people have. Full day school
does not imply school for the whole day. No Educational planners are ever
going to try even remotely to have 24 hour school as sarcastically implied
by Pinheiro. Full day school in the first place implies school for extended
hours more than the 5.5 hours that the school meets now. It does not imply
8.30 to 5.30 school. Without the introduction of the misnomer of full day
school, many schools in Goa are already working extended hours. More over,
the number of days for which the school is supposed to meet in a year in Goa
is pegged down at 220 working days. You'll be surprised to note that quite a
few schools fail to meet this basic criterion.

In the second instance, Pinheiro makes a case for increased and better
infrastructure. Good Point. However, increased infrastructure alone without
the necessary effort by students and teachers is never going to translate
into improved standards of education. There are other factors. To illustrate
this, Einstein formulated his theory of relativity when working in a dingy
patent clerk's office.

What Soter and Doc have for their frame of reference when they put forward
their arguments regarding school hours is a catholic, English/ Portuguese
student. What about the masses of rural children who form the backbone of
school education in Goa? I am not even mentioning the numbers of migrants
from different states in India who also form a sizeable proportion of
students in Goa and who in times to come will overtake Goan students in
sheer numbers alone!

Visualize a situation like this - students who come from a non-English
speaking background, first generation learners, studying in an English
medium school. How do you get these kids to study English and learn concepts
in Science, Math, History and Geography when the comprehension of English
itself is a major stumbling block? You guys want to improve standards of
education. Without this basic funda, how do you proceed? The only
opportunity most of these kids have to hear/ speak is in school. Once these
kids get home, they put the English they have learnt in school away and then
on it is Hindi, vernacular or what have you. It is only extended hours of
teaching that will remedy this situation. Not all students rate as geniuses
as Dr. Mashelkar. Extended school hours have proved them selves in such
cases and I can cite examples.

Extended hours implies things like supervised study, problem solving,
tutorials, lab work (check out how this is done at present - a group of
students or the whole class has the experiment demoed to them and that is
the sum total of practical work), games, music, art and dance. So
fundamental principles of learning by doing are sacrificed at the altar of
teacher convenience? Today, teachers are not even prepared to do
substitution - which the Supreme Court has in clear cut terms stated that it
is a part of the teachers duties.

Elsewhere in the rest of the country, students study for extended hours. The
effects are of course telling. Count the number of Goan IAS, Goan IPS, IFS
and other civil services. We do not even have numbers in the same
proportion.

And Doc, when you talk about pseudo educators so disparagingly, you are
asserting, of course, that you have all the qualifications and experience to
comment on school education?

[Tony de Sa]

sunil dsouza <dsouzamail at gmail.com>

Dear Percy,
I have read your views on GoaNet on above subject and i also feel that

present state of infrastructure is not sufficient ....
(truncated)

Are all the learned/ educated

*academicians * asleep?

Dear Mr. de Souza,
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
To sweepingly imply or suggest that the community of *academicians* is
asleep is a bit drastic to say the very least. Please refer to the Central
Right to Education Act with regard to the number of school working hours.
When Kapil Sibal passed the act, the country welcomed it as an act that
would "boost" the standards of Education in the country.
Remember age old wisdom that says "nothing comes for nothing." There's
always a price to pay! So stop squealing. If you are a parent and you want
the thing stopped or implemented slowly till infrastructure is built up, try
having a PTA meeting and voicing your dissent. If you are a teacher, bang
goes your tuition business (with due apologies to those who do not indulge
in the business) Teacher-cum-LIC/ Bajaj Alianz/ Ing Vaisya/ other insurance
agent? Bad luck ole boy.
Be realistic and philosophical. Remember what cannot be changed must be
endured.


Comment:
Eradicate one evil and create ten? Is it this that Tony is advocating.
The problem in this country is that everyone looks at particular issues with
blinkers.
The concerned ministry will take policy decisions exclusively from the
interest of the particular sector.
The adverse impact on other sectors in the process is never ever weighed or
acknowledged.
So to tame the teacher who is an LIC agent, tutor, politician, matka bookie,
introduce full day classes.
The crooked will always find loop holes to escape.
But in the process the city roads will be clogged with school buses and
vehicles of office-goers.
The commuters who travel in already crowded public transport will be thrown
into a further difficulty with the school crowd and office going crowd
converging at the bus stop at the same time.
Then the same mess will repeat after school hours. When will children living
in far flung areas reach home? Some teachers travel from Pernem to Margao or
vice versa. What will happen to them? Is teaching a joke? Teachers bring
home exam answer papers for corrections. Are those hours counted?
Very often female teachers have to manage home and work. What happens to
them? In the same breath we talk of women empowerment.
What happens to hundreds of students who get trained in various other skills
which are not imparted in their schools?
Has anyone considered the increased burden on electricity and water
consumption?
Have all these aspects been considered?
Modern day parents will only be too happy as full day school only helps keep
their children at
bay for some more time. But how will this improve education.
or, will it be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire?

-Soter

[Tony de Sa]

@ Soter :
I was merely explaining why increased hours of schooling are sought to be
implemented.
The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premises
in order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by using the library
and other
resources which the teacher may not have at home. It is also time for
students to do
their home work and get their doubts and difficulties settled by consulting
the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to
use the library and computer resources. It is a time for remedial teaching.

If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to
offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and commute for
their own
reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it

suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of
Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher
absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because teachers
want to
finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas sweets. It is
no
joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling
'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers have
towards the work ethic.
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for
co-curricular activities and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the
tuition business, LIC business and various other businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this.
Could you suggest a way to curb this other than full day school?

Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,
elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for instance.
Students
and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro everyday in
worse
crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee, whether
teacher or
humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught
in their schools there are differing views. One is that the school ought to
be fully
equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and
realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is that a student is a
full time
student till he/ she completes school education and should concentrate on
the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could argue till the
cows come home and still argue more.

May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are
some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load and
then
do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the rotters.

[SOTER]

Tony wrote:
"The additional hours of work are supposed to be for teachers to remain in
the school premisesin order to mark books, prepare the next days lessons by
using the libraryand otherresources which the teacher may not have at home.
It is also time for students to do their home work and get their doubts and
difficulties settled by consulting the teachers.
It is also time for the students to develop their physical education skills
and also to use the library and computer resources. It is a time for
remedial teaching.

comment:
All well on paper. Several schools have space contraints. Students are
recreating on the roads in the city.


If teachers travel long distances, then they are being paid a transport
allowance to offset their expenses. Teachers live at their residences and
commute for
their own reasons and convenience. That should not be a consideration.
Let us admit that teachers in Goa do not want to be full time teachers as it
suits their convenience to work for only half a day.

comment:
Teachers leave their homes at 6 or 6.30 a., and reach back at 3 or 4p.m.
Damn easy with out transport system isn't it?
Surprisingly you have not mentioned the time in correcting papers, board
corrections in vacations, filling of other forms, marks sheets, schood day
prep. etc


TW
Soter, you may not be aware of this but make a random check of Muster Rolls
of Schools for the month of December and you will be startled to find that
teacher absence is most pronounced during this month. Why? Simply because
teachers
want to finish their casual leave and the ladies to prepare christmas
sweets. It is
no joke to try to run a school with seven or eight teachers mysteriously
falling'sick' on the same day. This shows the attitude that today's teachers
have
towards the work ethic.

Comment:
Who does not do this? Do you find people in government offices in december?
Why single out teachers?
Could you tell me whteher there is ethics in the homes today. How can we
expect it of teachers?

TW
Ask teachers to come to school in the afternoon for co-curricular activities
and see the result. It is a fact that teachers,
rampantly engage in the tuition business, LIC business and various other
businesses. But everyone
turns a blind eye to this. Could you suggest a way to curb this other than
full day school?

Comment:
Ask government servants and see. Teachers involved in side business is an
exageration. Do not generalise.

TW:
Soter's concern for female teachers who are also home makers is laudable.
However,elsewhere in the country, these same issues exist. Take Mumbai for
instance.
Students and teachers, both male and female travel for hours to and fro
everyday in
worse crowded transportation systems. The plight of a female employee,
whether
teacher or humble office worker is the same so why single out teachers only?

comment:
This is the basic problem. bec' it happens in othr parts it should happen in
Goa. What is the transport situation in other parts?

TW.
Regarding the other skills that the students are supposed to learn which are
not taught in their schools there are differing views. One is that the
school ought to
be fully equipped to be able to cater to a wide range of interests. But
practicalities and realities tell us this cannot happen. Another view is
that a student is a
full time student till he/ she completes school education and should
concentrate on the curriculum, There are umpteen view points and we could
argue till thecows come home and still argue more.

Comment:
As a citizen we are expected to do many things. Do we do it? Schools ougth
to be equipped etc. is all fine on paper. You forget about several teachers
doing social work in thir free time or even developing other skills.


May I add, I am not trying to slam the teaching community as a whole. There
are some wonderful conscientious teachers who work their normal work load
and
then do more than their share. But as in any social setup, there are the
rotters.

Comment:
Exactly! You have generalised the existence of rotters by smearuing the
whole teaching community. It is not as easy to manange a school nor is it
easy to teach in a country where the rights and duties go hay wire.
What was wrong with the present system in Goa?

-Soter

[SOTER]

Lenny has hit the right chord in this debate on full day schooling. With due respect to all the views shared, we are masters at moulding our opinion based on media hype. Do only those students going for coaching classes excell?
Parents want to dump their children onto someone while they are at work. The families are in shambles and the parents expect the schools to instill discipline in the spoiled brats. Instilling discipline is also dangerous for a teacher because it could attract any accusation under child abuse laws. To understand the misery of our education today and the criminality so to say in students, one has to first hand experience it.
This cut and paste approaches from foreign systems bychild rights activists and educationists has spelled disaster in the education system.

-Soter

[pinheiro]

What the current generation need is quality education (not quantity) to face challenges of the future. Our schools (more so at village level) must be upgraded with better science labs, play grounds, libraries etc. The mad rush of sending to school to town will automatically be reduced. This will translate in less people on road and more energy to kids and parents, less traffic in towns, less air pollution etc. In young lives besides good education, good physical and mental recreation is equally important. Do not rob the childhood of future generation by focusing on academic education only. All round development of the mind and body is important and full day school will rob the childhood of our children's. Change of curriculum and infrastructure in school demand urgent attention than change in school timing. After full day school, what next 24 hours school?

Agnelo Pinheiro

.

[Tony de Sa]

To all those who replied to this thread,
Viz Soter, Dr. Colaco, Agnel Pinheiro, Lenny D'Souza

I am glad to note that this thread has generated a lot of discussion. Point
is are we prepared to argue and listen to reason i.e. be receptive to
change or are we going to be bull headed and stick to our own view point and
try to score brownie points and show our skills at debate and one up man
ship?

There are a few misconceptions that a lot of people have. Full day school
does not imply school for the whole day. No Educational planners are ever
going to try even remotely to have 24 hour school as sarcastically implied
by Pinheiro. Full day school in the first place implies school for extended
hours more than the 5.5 hours that the school meets now. It does not imply
8.30 to 5.30 school. Without the introduction of the misnomer of full day
school, many schools in Goa are already working extended hours. More over,
the number of days for which the school is supposed to meet in a year in Goa
is pegged down at 220 working days. You'll be surprised to note that quite a
few schools fail to meet this basic criterion.

In the second instance, Pinheiro makes a case for increased and better
infrastructure. Good Point. However, increased infrastructure alone without
the necessary effort by students and teachers is never going to translate
into improved standards of education. There are other factors. To illustrate
this, Einstein formulated his theory of relativity when working in a dingy
patent clerk's office.

What Soter and Doc have for their frame of reference when they put forward
their arguments regarding school hours is a catholic, English/ Portuguese
student. What about the masses of rural children who form the backbone of
school education in Goa? I am not even mentioning the numbers of migrants
from different states in India who also form a sizeable proportion of
students in Goa and who in times to come will overtake Goan students in
sheer numbers alone!

Visualize a situation like this - students who come from a non-English
speaking background, first generation learners, studying in an English
medium school. How do you get these kids to study English and learn concepts
in Science, Math, History and Geography when the comprehension of English
itself is a major stumbling block? You guys want to improve standards of
education. Without this basic funda, how do you proceed? The only
opportunity most of these kids have to hear/ speak is in school. Once these
kids get home, they put the English they have learnt in school away and then
on it is Hindi, vernacular or what have you. It is only extended hours of
teaching that will remedy this situation. Not all students rate as geniuses
as Dr. Mashelkar. Extended school hours have proved them selves in such
cases and I can cite examples.

Extended hours implies things like supervised study, problem solving,
tutorials, lab work (check out how this is done at present - a group of
students or the whole class has the experiment demoed to them and that is
the sum total of practical work), games, music, art and dance. So
fundamental principles of learning by doing are sacrificed at the altar of
teacher convenience? Today, teachers are not even prepared to do
substitution - which the Supreme Court has in clear cut terms stated that it
is a part of the teachers duties.

Elsewhere in the rest of the country, students study for extended hours. The
effects are of course telling. Count the number of Goan IAS, Goan IPS, IFS
and other civil services. We do not even have numbers in the same
proportion.

And Doc, when you talk about pseudo educators so disparagingly, you are
asserting, of course, that you have all the qualifications and experience to
comment on school education?