Dear Andrew ~
I suppose I could say that I'm pleased that the online wikitree account for John Norbury, Esq. cites my Royal Ancestry book as one of its two sources for its account of him. However, given that the wikitree information contains such a stunning number of errors and omissions, I have to wonder if the person who created the wikitree account actually saw what I wrote in my book regarding John Norbury, Esq.
Having said that, I've copied below my current file account regarding John Norbury, Esq. [died 1414], who was an important individual in the reigns of King Henry IV and King Henry V. The file account contains two statements regarding his early career, both of which I've pulled from secondary sources. One statement concerns him being a soldier in 1368 in Brittany, the other him fighting in Portugal in 1385. I suspect the first statement could be false, or that it could pertain to another person of the same name. The 1385 statement is almost certainly correct.
Whatever the case, wikitree is wrong to place John Norbury's birth as being "about 1375" as he appears to have married his first wife, Pernel, about 1385. He was surely married in or about 1385, as his daughter, Joan's 1st husband, Nicholas Uske, Treasurer of Calais, died testate in 1403. The marriage of Nicholas and Joan must have been recent to 1403, as Nicholas Uske had a wife named Alice as late as 1397 [see Papal Regs.: Letters 5 (1904): 52]. For evidence that Nicholas Uske's wife, Joan, was John Norbury's daughter, see the partial abstract of Uske's will published in Collectanea Franciscana 2 (1922): 83, available at the following weblink:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015035805475;view=1up;seq=467
I note that the wikitree account states that John Norbury, Esq. had two children, Elizabeth and Henry, both by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Boteler (or Butler). John Norbury actually had four children: two daughters Joan and Elizabeth by his 1st wife, Pernel, and two sons Henry, Knt., and John, Knt., by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth Boteler (or Butler).
I might also note that John Norbury's daughter, Elizabeth, is known to have been a kinswoman of John Wheathampstead, Abbot of St. Albans, who was son of Hugh Bostock.
Petronilla, by the way, is Latin for Pernel (or Parnel) and should be avoided.
Finally, I should mention that I've found that John Norbury's widow, Elizabeth, was called Isabel in a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1450. While Elizabeth and Isabel were certainly interchangeable in earlier time periods, all other records I have encountered of this woman call her Elizabeth. As such, I have every confidence that her correct name was Elizabeth.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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1. ELIZABETH BOTELER (or BUTLER), married (1st) (as his 2nd wife) WILLIAM HERON, Knt., Lord Say, of Eshot and East Duddoe, Northumberland, Knight of the Shire for Northumberland, Steward of the Household to King Henry IV, and, in right of his 1st wife, of Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire, Long Stratton, Norfolk, Buxted, Newtimber, and Streat, Sussex, etc., son and heir of John Heron, of Eppleton (parish of Houghton-le-Spring), Durham, Branton, Crawley, Eschot, and Hedgeley, Northumberland, etc. They had no issue. In consequence of his 1st marriage to Elizabeth Say (died 8 July 1399), he was summoned to Parliament from 13 Nov. 1393 to 25 August 1404, by writs directed Willelmo Heron’, whereby he is held to have become Lord Say. In 1397 Robert Knolles, Knt. sued William Heron, Knt. in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of 22 marks. His trustees presented to the church of Little Bookham, Surrey in 1400. He was heir in 1404 to his brother, Gerard Heron, Knt. SIR WILLIAM HERON, Lord Say, died testate 30 October 1404. She married (2nd) before 30 October 1410 (as his 2nd wife) JOHN NORBURY, Esq., of Hoddesden, Bedwell (in Essendon), and Little Berkhampstead, Hertfordshire, King’s esquire, Knight of the Shire for Hertfordshire, Lord High Treasurer, 1399–1401, member of council for King Henry V, Keeper of the Privy Wardrobe in the Tower of London, Captain of Guines, Justice of the Peace for Hertfordshire, 1413–14, younger son of Thomas de Norbury, of Nantwich, Cheshire, by his wife, _____, daughter and heiress of _____ Pembridge. They had two sons, Henry, Knt., and John, Knt. He married (1st) about 1385 PERNEL _____, by whom he had two daughters, Joan (wife of Nicholas Uske and William Parker) and Elizabeth (wife of John Hende and Ralph Boteler, K.G., Lord Sudeley [see SUDELEY 14.iii]). He left his family home to become a soldier in France, fighting in Brittany in the service of the Duke of Brittany in 1368. In 1385 he arrived at Lisbon from Bordeaux and served as a mercenary captain for João, King of Portugal, at the Battle of Aljubarrota. He joined the retinue of Henry, Earl of Derby (afterwards King Henry IV), and became a permanent member of the royal council, and later becoming Treasurer of England. In 1399 Henry, then Duke of Lancaster, granted him the forfeiture of all the lands belonging to John Ludwyk. Sometime after 1399 Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland granted him the manor of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire for the term of his life, which grant was confirmed by King Henry IV in 1412, with successive remainders to John’s wife, Elizabeth, and their sons, Henry and John. He was appointed an overseer of the 1403 will of his son-in-law, Nicholas Uske, late Treasurer of Calais. In 1406 he was granted a license to enclose 800 acres of land and wood adjoining his manors of Bedwell (in Essendon) and Little Berkhampstead, Hertfordshire to make a park. In 1412 the king confirmed the previous grant of Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmorland, to John Norbury, Esq., of the manor and the advowson of the church of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire for life, and, with the assent of the council and a certain sum of money, the king granted the same to the said John for life, with successive remainders for life to the said John’s wife, Elizabeth, and their sons, Henry and John. In 1413 he was granted the alien priory of Greenwich and Lewisham, Kent, with all the manors and lands belonging to it, during the war with France. JOHN NORBURY, Esq., died in 1414, and was buried in the church of the Grey Friars (now Christ’s Hospital), London, with his 1st wife. His widow, Elizabeth, married (3rd) before 1425 JOHN MONTGOMERY, Knt., of Faulkbourne, Blunts Hall (in Witham), and Great Tey, Essex, Bailiff of Calais, 1413, Privy Councillor to John, Duke of Bedford, Receiver of Summage, 1446–9. They had two sons, John, Esq., and Thomas, K.G., and one daughter, Alice. In 1426 he and his wife, Elizabeth, acquired the manor of Chalton, Hampshire from the executors of Gilbert Talbot, Knt. In 1439 he was licensed to fortify his house at Faulkbourne, Essex. In 1448 the manor of Chalton, Hampshire was settled on him and his wife, Elizabeth, and their issue. SIR JOHN MONTGOMERY died testate shortly before 5 July 1449. In 1450 Nicholas Michell, merchant, of Luca sued his widow, Elizabeth, as “Isabel Say, of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire, widow, formerly wife and executrix of John Montgomery, Knt.” in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt. Elizabeth, Lady Say, died 5 Feb. 1465. She left a will dated 31 Jan. 1464/5, requesting burial at ErdburyArbury Priory, Warwickshire, where “the bones of her ancestors rest.” In 1470 Thomas Montgomery, Knt., and three others, executors of Elizabeth, Lady Say, sued William Ketilton, butcher, of Cheshunt, Hertfordshire, and another in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt.
References:
Dugdale, Antiqs. of Warwickshire (1656): 772 (Sudeley-Boteler ped.). Dugdale, Antiqs. of Warwickshire (1730): 521–523. Morant, Hist. & Antiqs. of Essex 2 (1768): 116. Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1 (1807): 341 (sub Heron) (“William Heron … was an eminent soldier, and employed on various important embassies.”). Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 7 (1812): 16–39 (sub Twisleton, Lord Say and Sele). Surtees, Hist. & Antiqs. of Durham 1 (1816): 218 (Heron ped.). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 163 (will of William Heron); 2 (1826): 396 (will of Thomas Montgomery, Knt.). Clutterbuck, Hist. & Antiqs. of Hertford 3 (1827): 195–196 (Heron-Say ped.). Dallaway, Hist. of the Western Div. of Sussex 2(2) (1830): 76–78 (Shelley ped.). Fuller, Hist. of the Worthies of England (1840): 524–526. Cat. of Additions to MSS in the British Museum 1841–1845 (1850): 60. Monro, Letters of Queen Margaret of Anjou & Bishop Beckington (Camden Soc. 86) (1863): 105–106. Fortescue, Hist. of the Fam. of Fortescue (1880): chart facing 234, 247–249. Glover et al., Vis. of Cheshire 1580, 1566, 1533 & 1591 (H.S.P. 18) (1882): 54–56 (1580 Vis.) (Bulklegh ped.: “Sr John Norbury Thresorer of England mar. Elizabeth sister to Rafe Butler l: Sudley”). Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 7 (1882–3): 304 (Bray ped.). Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 44 (1883): 546, 548. Harvey et al., Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P. 19) (1884): 162–163 (Bray ped.: “Sr John Norbury Knt. = Elizabeth d. and heire [of Thomas Butler Baron of Sudley].”). Lewis, Pedes Finium; or, Fines Rel. Surrey (Surrey Arch. Soc. Extra Volume 1) (1894): 224. Kirby, Wykeham’s Reg. 1 (1896): 229. Benolte et al., Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1623 (H.S.P. 43) (1899): 219–221 (Vincent ped.: “Sr John Norbury Knt. Threaseror of England. = Ellizebeth [Botteler] sister and coheir”). Trans. Essex Arch. Soc. n.s. 7 (1900): 267–271. Surrey Arch. Colls. 19 (1906): 27–32; 20 (1907): 1–89. VCH Hampshire 3 (1908): 95, 105. C.P.R. 1408–1413 (1909): 65, 144, 283, 298–299, 404–405, 410, 453, 455. Home Counties Mag. 11 (1909): 266–280. C.P.R. 1413–1416 (1910): 161, 162, 419. VCH Hertford 3 (1912): 427–430, 446–447 (Norbury arms: Sable a chevron engrailed between three bulls’ heads caboshed argent), 458–462. Kingsford, Grey Friars of London (1915): 139–144. Collectanea Franciscana 2 (1922): 83 (will of Nicholas Uske, late Treasurer of Calais; will names John Norbury, Esq., father of his wife, as overseer of his will). Kingsford, Add’l Material for the Hist. of the Grey Friars, London (1922): 79–91. C.P. 6 (1926): 492–493 (sub Heron). C.C.R. 1408–1413 (1932): 189. Dodds, Hist. of Northumberland 14 (1935): 410–411 (Heron ped.). Misc. Gen. et Heraldica 5th Ser. 9 (1935–37): 232–245. Wedgwood, Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 604–605 (biog. of John Montgomery), 605–606 (biog. of Sir Thomas Montgomery), 635 (biogs. of Sir Henry Norbury and Sir John Norbury), 788 (biog. of Clement Spice). C.F.R. 18 (1939): 97. Legge, Anglo-Norman Letters & Petitions (Anglo-Norman Text Soc. 3) (1941): 116–117, 404–406, 412–413, 415, 417–419, 422, 424–426, 430, 435–436, 444–445 (“J.C.”, clerk, styled cousin by John Norbury), 448–449, 450–451, 453–458. Lamborn, Armorial Glass of the Oxford Diocese (1949): 96. English Hist. Rev. 68 (1953): 66–76 (biog. of John Norbury). Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 82: 7. Bull. John Rylands Lib. 42 (1959–60): 113–131. Ancient Deeds — Ser. B 2 (List & Index Soc. 101) (1974): B.7731, B.7733, B.7734, B.7738, B.7739, B.7959, B.7960, B.7962, B.8104; 3 (List & Index Soc. 113) (1975): B.10633. Ellis, Cat. Seals in the P.R.O. 1 (1978): 46 (seal of John Montgomery dated 1433 — A shield of arms: a chevron ermine between three fleurs-de-lys, with a small indistinct charge (perhaps a mark of cadency) in chief. Helm above with crest: a bush of feathers within a crown. The background is diapered with flowers. Legend: S’ IOHANNIS MONGOMERY MILIT’.). Petre, Richard III: Crown & People (1985): 149–155. Hicks, Who’s Who in Late Medieval England (2001): 192–194 (biog. of John Norbury: “… He joined Henry IV before his formal accession and immediately afterwards the new king appointed him Lord Treasurer, keeper of the privy wardrobe, captain of Guines, and a permanent councilor… Yet the man so honoured remained no more than an esquire. His case illustrates in an extreme form the medieval king’s right to seek advice where he chose and to favour his servants over his greatest subjects.”). Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421 2 (1992): 458–459 (biog. of Sir Thomas Butler); 3 (1992): 843–846 (biog. of John Norbury); 4 (1992): 14–16 (biog. of William Parker). Cal. IPM 23 (2004): 89–90. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/544, image 48f, available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/R2/CP40no544/aCP40no544fronts/IMG_0048.htm. Court of Common Pleas, CP40/555, image 324f, available at
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H4/CP40no555/aCP40no555fronts/IMG_0324.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/758, image 250f (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no758/aCP40no758fronts/IMG_0250.htm). Court of Common Pleas, CP40/837, image 530d (available at http:// aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E4/CP40no837/bCP40no837dorses/IMG_0530.htm).
Post by Andrew LancasterHello Paul
For convenience, I can do this for you. (Pre 1500 profiles require some editing history on wikitree.) So to check:-
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/norbury-john-1414
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Norbury-3
1.
'Parishes: Essendon,' in A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3, ed. William Page (London: Victoria County History, 1912), 458-462, accessed March 15, 2016, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp458-462
[We can at least say the article quotes from this source.]
2.
"Royal Ancestry" 2013, D. Richardson Vol. IV. p. 250
[I think the Richardson source is not really being used. It is not a page which gives much information for this person.]
Temporary conclusion: some one may have just filled in a quick estimate of the birth year. Next question is whether the identification being made in HOP is reasonable, because it is much earlier than many of his other activities.
I note that your estimate, reasonable at first sight, would make John slightly older than his father-in-law, which is possible, but enough to make us cautious.
http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/Ricardian/2004_vol14_ashdown_hill_lady_eleanor_talbot.pdf
I seem to recall reading more good online essays touching upon this family, by Ashdown-Hill.
" The career of Sir John Norbury I is well documented, although the fact that he was Sir Thomas Butler’s grandfather has not previously been recognised. He is first encountered as an esquire in the service of the house of Lancaster, being specifically attached to John of Gaunt’s son, Henry (the future Henry IV). John Norbury accompanied Henry into exile in France when he was banished by his cousin, King Richard II, and returned with him to England in 1399, when, shortly before his abdication, Richard II was forced to appoint Norbury as treasurer of England, a post which he then held for the entire reign of Henry IV, and which brought him into close contact with the rich businessmen in the city of London whose loans, together with loans from Sir John Norbury himself, were to finance Henry IV’s government. Prominent among these businessmen was John Hende II, a very wealthy widower to whom, in about 1408, Sir John Norbury was able to marry his young daughter, Elizabeth."
[He cites Barber.]
If anyone see a problem with Paul's suggestion let me know then and otherwise I will adjust John Norbury's birth year. (And add some links to this discussion and the sourcing above.)