CotW LOTR Bk2 Ch8: Farewell to Lórien

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

As I signed up to do this chapter I prophesied that I would regret it
when the deadline approached. I was right. But anyway here it is the
ongoing saga of (drums) Chapter Of The Week!!!

Read and (hopefully) enjoy!


Book2, Chapter 8: Farewell to Lórien

To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org

Chapter Summary
===============

The company are summoned before Celeborn and Galadriel to discuss the
further course of their journey. They are all resolved to go forward,
but undecided on the route. Aragorn is especially split, since on the
one hand he feel he has to go with Frodo and on the other that he has
been summoned to Gondor.

Celeborn points out that there are no crossings and no bridges on
Anduin between Lórien and Gondor. Those heading for Gondor must choose
the western bank, those seeking to de-stroy the ring the eastern.
Aragorn express the opinion that even Gandalf had no clear pur-pose
beyond Lórien. [1] Seeing their - mostly Aragorn's - distress at
having the choice of route thus forced upon them he offers them boats,
that they may travel easily down Anduin and delay their choice. All
are happy, except for Sam.

They then take their leave of Celeborn and Galadriel and return to
their lodging, where they discuss what to do, still without reaching
any conclusion.

During the discussion Boromir makes a Freudian slip, revealing how the
ring is beginning to draw him. No one notices, except Frodo.

As they pack they are given various helpful items: lembas, waybread
[2], which Gimli mis-takes for Cram, and cloaks. [3]

Next morning Haldir returns to be their guide. He tells of the Dimrill
Dale full of vapour and clouds of smoke, trouble mountains, and noises
in the deeps of the earth

At noon they had walked ten miles when they came on a high green wall
[4] through which they pass out of the trees onto a lawn reaching as a
tongue between the Silverlode and An-duin. Here they find a hythe
where three boats have been made ready for them. And to Sam's delight,
rope.

They try out the boats. Aragorn, Frodo and Sam in one; Boromir, Merry,
and Pippin in an-other; and Legolas and Gimli in the last one. At this
point we are told that Legolas and Gimli "had now become fast
friends". They paddle up-stream on the Silverlode where at one point
they meet Celeborn and Galadriel travelling in a large, swan-shaped
ship. They are in-vited to a parting feast at the hythe.

When they have eaten Celeborn talks to them of the land ahead of them,
as they pass down Anduin. Among other things, this is were the forest
Fangorn is first mentioned in a warning: "That is a strange land, and
is now little known." [5]

Galadriel then brings around a cup to Celeborn and each of the
Company, that they drink the cup of farewell. [6]

She then takes command and bring out the parting gifts. [6]

Aragorn is given a sheath for Andúril. "The blade that is drawn from
this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat." After a
short exchange, whose meaning a rather obscure, Galadriel gives him "a
great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought
in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings"[7] for " it was left
in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land".
Upon thanking her, Aragorn's last words are "O Lady of Lórien of whom
were sprung Celebrían and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say
more?" Those who kept their eyes open in Rivendell will now understand
what this was all about. To all others it will remain a mystery for a
further 600 pages. :-)

Boromir is then given a belt of gold, Merry and Pippin silver belts
and Legolas a bow. [8]

Sam is given a small box of earth from her orchard. [9]

She then turns to Gimli and asks him what gift he would want. [10]
After much pressing he at last agree "to name a single strand of your
hair, ... I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name
my desire." During the following exchange she grants him his wish,
and he says he will "Treasure it in memory of your words to me at our
first meeting. And if ever I return to the smithies of my home, it
shall be set in imperishable crystal to be an heirloom of my house,
and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the
end of days."

At last she turns to Frodo, and gives him phial in which the light of
Eärendil's star has been caught. She adds: "Remember Galadriel and her
Mirror!" [11]

Galadriel and Celeborn then leads the Company back to the hythe and
they set out into the river. Again we are treated to the semi-magical
property of Lórien, when the leave it behind: "For so it seemed to
them: Lórien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with
en-chanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat
helpless upon the margin of the grey and leafless world."

As they pass away from Lórien they hear The Lady sing one last time,
this time in "the an-cient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea". Frodo
does not understand the words: "fair was the music, but it did not
comfort him". [12]

As they pass out of sight of Lórien, all of them have tears in their
eyes, and Gimli weeps. [13] We have then an exchange between Legolas
and Gimli on the nature of pain, joy, memory and loss. Gimli says
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold
me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light
and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I
were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord." Beautiful.

The chapter end with a particularly well written paragraph, which I
will quote in full:

"So the Company went on their long way, down the wide hurrying waters,
borne ever southwards. Bare woods stalked along either bank, and they
could not see any glimpse of the lands behind. The breeze died away
and the River flowed without a sound. No voice of bird broke the
silence. The sun grew misty as the day grew old, until it gleamed in a
pale sky like a high white pearl. Then it faded into the West, and
dusk came early, followed by a grey and starless night. Far into the
dark quiet hours they floated on, guiding their boats under the
overhanging shadows of the western woods. Great trees passed by like
ghosts, thrusting their twisted thirsty roots through the mist down
into the water. It was dreary and cold. Frodo sat and listened to the
faint lap and gurgle of the River fretting among the tree-roots and
driftwood near the shore, until his head nodded and he fell into an
uneasy sleep."

Wonderful imagery, at once taking us back to "real" world (i.e. out of
Faerie [14]), and setting the stage and mood for the next chapter. All
in one, and quite short.

Comments & Questions
====================

[1] What *would* Gandalf have done, had he survived Moria?

[2] Lembas has been discussed before in these groups. It "is more
strengthening than any food made by Men" and one cake is "enough for a
long day's march" they "will keep sweet for many many days, if they
are unbroken and left in their leaf-wrappings". Clearly lembas is not
merely physically nourishing, but works rather on a spiritual level.

[3] Again the ambiguity of elven magic: "Are these magic cloaks?"
Pippin asks. "I do not know what you mean by that," is the reply.
"They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and
branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these
things under the twilight of Lórien that we love; for we put the
thought of all that we love into all that we make. Yet they are
garments, not armour, and they will not turn shaft or blade. But they
should serve you well: they are light to wear, and warm enough or cool
enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of
the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the
trees."

Now, are these cloaks magic?

[4] "A high green wall"? A hedge or truly a wall, and if the latter,
then why build a wall?

[5] Lórien and Fangorn are almost next door neighbours. Are we to take
it, that Celeborn was so ill-informed of what was happening a scant
100 miles from his borders? He didn't even know that Ents lived there?

[6] Note that at the "official" part of the come-together she defers
to Celeborn in all matters, even to the point of serving him and his
guests. But when we get down to serious business, the parting gifts
(to at least Aragorn, Gimli and Frodo, the gifts were very serious
business) he is entirely on the side.

[7] This is the Elessar of which we learn next to nothing in LotR, but
quite a lot in Unfin-ished Tales. It will be some time before CotW get
to that!

[8] Not the most imaginative of gifts.

[9] The wit of Galadriel really shows here a small box that would be
almost worthless to most, but is perhaps the most precious thing she
could possibly have given Sam (even had the scouring of the Shire
never happened). Hm. Did she foresee it, when she gave this to Sam?

[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

[11] That he should remember Galadriel I can understand. But why the
mirror?

[12] Wouldn't that be Quenya? But didn't Frodo understand Quenya
perfectly well, as dem-onstrated by his meeting with Gildor in the
Shire-?

[13] I can't blame him. So do I, every time I read this bit.

[14] I'm seriouly under the influence of Shippey: "Tolkien, Author of
the Century" at the moment.


Character development
=================

In this chapter we see Celeborn for the second time. This time around
he turns out much more favourably than the first. He is kind and
helpful, not wanting to press advice on anyone ("Elves seldom give
unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift" – Gildor) he
nonetheless see an opportunity to help when he offers them boats

Galadriel features prominently but I don't feel we learn anything new
about her.

We are treated to two sides of Aragorn in this chapter. The undecided
Aragorn, not knowing which way to go: with Frodo to Mordor or with
Boromir to Gondor. This Aragorn will stay with us for quite a long
time (he never truly disappear until the battle of Helms deep), but
from time to time we get a glimpse of the other Aragorn: the "tall and
kingly" Aragorn, that we see for the first time in this chapter.

Gimli is perhaps the most interesting figure in this chapter. The way
he acts he presents a counterpoint to almost all stereotypes of
dwarves. They are greedy, he is modest; they have a harsh tongue, he
soft-spoken and eloquent; they are stout stone-faced warriors, he acts
like a teenager in love. It is in this chapter we really get to know
Gimli, and personally I love this portrayal of him.



Now it's all yours to tear apart and make of what you will. Hopefully
some interesting discussion.

Cheers,
Kristian

[Son of John Leo]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Now it's all yours to tear apart and make of what you will. Hopefully
some interesting discussion.
Cheers,
Kristian

An excellent review and well worth reading

this Chapter was one of the most important of the whole book, as with
the gifts, Tolkien sets things up for a more interesting plot, and you
know he is going to come back to each tale of the gifts as the story
progresses

the gifts also add wonder to the reading, a kind of magic that is not
too far fetched and is believable, it makes your normal everyday
jewels seem much more precious with a tale behind them

Share Tips from Shabbydabbydoo Shares
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[Steve Turner]

Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:

[snipped nearly all of it because I wanted to comment on just this]


: She then turns to Gimli and asks him what gift he would want. [10]
: After much pressing he at last agree "to name a single strand of your
: hair, ... I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name
: my desire." During the following exchange she grants him his wish,

She actually gives him three strands.

Anyway I've recently finished Unfinished Tales and remembered this....well not
off by heart yet ;-)

"Even among the Eldar [Galadriel] was accounted beautiful and her hair was held
a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her
foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some
memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said the light of the
Two trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought
that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending
the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Simarils. For
Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged her three
times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair."

She certainly thought a lot of Gimli.

Steve

[Henriette]

Post by Steve Turner
[snipped nearly all of it because I wanted to comment on just this]
: She then turns to Gimli and asks him what gift he would want. [10]
: After much pressing he at last agree "to name a single strand of your
: hair, ... I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name
: my desire." During the following exchange she grants him his wish,
She actually gives him three strands.

Three hairs actually:-)

(snip beautiful description of The Lady's hair from Unfinished Tales)

Henriette

[Belba Grubb from Stock]

On 7 Jun 2004 13:08:21 -0700, ***@ofir.dk (Kristian Damm Jensen)
wrote:

<snip excellent summary -- thanks for quoting that last paragraph; it
does bring us back into the real world in all its beauty, mystery and
occasional darkness.>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[1] What *would* Gandalf have done, had he survived Moria?

A good question. Between Gandalf and Aragorn, Gollum could probably
have been caught, though what would happen then is uncertain.

Aragorn was relying on Gandalf's presence so that he himself could go
to Minas Tirith, and that seems to imply that Gandalf would have gone
to Mordor with Frodo. However, I think he would have left it up to
Frodo at Parth Galen (as they likely would have taken the river
anyway, since to cross it at Lorien would have brought the Ring
dangerously close to Dol Guldur) and everything would have played out
as it actually did, with Frodo going off alone to think and Boromir
coming after him, and Frodo and Sam eventually going off to Mordor
alone. One wonders what effect Gandalf's presence at Parth Galen
would have had on the rest of the events there, if Boromir would have
died there or else, redeemed, would have gone to Minas Tirith with
Aragorn while Gandalf set off alone for Rohan and Isengard ("with
Saruman I will have business of my own...." But as the Grey, would he
have had much success there?

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[4] "A high green wall"? A hedge or truly a wall, and if the latter,
then why build a wall?

I've always pictured a wall; why not build one? Makes a nice change
from and addition to the natural surroundings.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[5] Lórien and Fangorn are almost next door neighbours. Are we to take
it, that Celeborn was so ill-informed of what was happening a scant
100 miles from his borders? He didn't even know that Ents lived there?

Well, Treebeard told Merry and Pippin that had they been going the
other way, he would have warned them about Lorien. The gulf between
the two lands seems measured more in time than in distance. I love
what Treebeard tells the two hobbits: "They are falling rather behind
in the world in there, I guess."

Maybe Treebeard is wrong, though, and what Celeborn means is that
little is known about the current state of mind of Treebeard and the
other Ents what with the treason of Isengard and the wanton
destruction going on around it; in which he case he doesn't so much
underestimate the Ents (they are indeed dangerous and ready to explode
in fury) as he fails to understand the hobbits and the effects they
might have there, a failing in which Celeborn is not alone. Only
Gandalf might have predicted it, but even as Gandalf the White he
doesn't know what the Ents will do now that they have been "roused."

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[6] Note that at the "official" part of the come-together she defers
to Celeborn in all matters, even to the point of serving him and his
guests. But when we get down to serious business, the parting gifts
(to at least Aragorn, Gimli and Frodo, the gifts were very serious
business) he is entirely on the side.

I read this as the passiveness of acquiescence, that he and Galadriel
had already discussed this and he approved of the giving. That was
quite a look he shot at Gimli, however (g) -- perhaps he was
speechless with shock.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[7] This is the Elessar of which we learn next to nothing in LotR, but
quite a lot in Unfin-ished Tales. It will be some time before CotW get
to that!

Could somebody give a little summary of it for those of us who are
UT-challenged?

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[9] The wit of Galadriel really shows here a small box that would be
almost worthless to most, but is perhaps the most precious thing she
could possibly have given Sam (even had the scouring of the Shire
never happened). Hm. Did she foresee it, when she gave this to Sam?

A good point. I've always thought she knew Gandalf had returned
because Frodo saw him in the Mirror, and if so, then through Sam she
could have seen what was happening to the trees in the Shire.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

She knew all along what he would ask for, having read his mind, and
probably loved Celeborn's reaction.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[11] That he should remember Galadriel I can understand. But why the
mirror?

Perhaps she was reminding him not so much of the physical Mirror as of
their interaction around it, in particular, her renouncing of the Ring
-- it would strengthen his resolve not to give in to the Ring himself.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Gimli is perhaps the most interesting figure in this chapter. The way
he acts he presents a counterpoint to almost all stereotypes of
dwarves. They are greedy, he is modest; they have a harsh tongue, he
soft-spoken and eloquent; they are stout stone-faced warriors, he acts
like a teenager in love. It is in this chapter we really get to know
Gimli, and personally I love this portrayal of him.

Me, too.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Now it's all yours to tear apart and make of what you will. Hopefully
some interesting discussion.

Just one thing puzzles me: If the battle between Gandalf and the
Balrog ended on January 25, why is Haldir telling the Company on
February 16 that the mountains are troubled and the Dimrill Stairs
impassable?

Barb

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock
Balrog ended on January 25, why is Haldir telling the Company on
February 16 that the mountains are troubled and the Dimrill Stairs
impassable?

The orcs preparing for war?

Note later on, in "The Uruk-Hai", an orcs comments "We have come all
the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill,
and then go back north."

But if that was it, they must have had pretty impressive smithies to
make the mountains troubled. (Whatever that means? Extensive
underground noises? Slight earthshakings?)

Regards,
Kristian

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[4] "A high green wall"? A hedge or truly a wall, and if the latter,
then why build a wall?

I've always pictured a wall; why not build one? Makes a nice change
from and addition to the natural surroundings.

Hm. I've always pictured a hedge; maybe because a "high green hedge"
has been mentioned before. A hedge seems more natural than a wall in
Lorien.

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

She knew all along what he would ask for, having read his mind, and
probably loved Celeborn's reaction.

LOL.

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock
Just one thing puzzles me: If the battle between Gandalf and the
Balrog ended on January 25, why is Haldir telling the Company on
February 16 that the mountains are troubled and the Dimrill Stairs
impassable?

Is it really February 16 *inside* Lorien? Time goes slower there,
and we don't know anything about how this works, exactly.

- Dirk

[Henriette]

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

She knew all along what he would ask for, having read his mind, and
probably loved Celeborn's reaction.

Some explanations of LOTR-facts were so cleverly hidden by Prof.
Tolkien, that it took years to unravel them, and he knew it would take
a woman to do it.

Henriette

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[4] "A high green wall"? A hedge or truly a wall, and if the latter,
then why build a wall?

I've always pictured a wall; why not build one? Makes a nice change
from and addition to the natural surroundings.

Hm. I've always pictured a hedge; maybe because a "high green hedge"
has been mentioned before. A hedge seems more natural than a wall in
Lorien.

I've always thought of it as a hedge too. 'Wall' can describe the
appearance of a tall hedge, not just refer to an artificial structure. I
think in the broadest sense of the word 'wall' can be any dividing
structure, and a hedge can perform that function.

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock
Just one thing puzzles me: If the battle between Gandalf and the
Balrog ended on January 25, why is Haldir telling the Company on
February 16 that the mountains are troubled and the Dimrill Stairs
impassable?

Is it really February 16 *inside* Lorien? Time goes slower there,
and we don't know anything about how this works, exactly.

Apart from Legolas's response to Frodo in the next chapter, and
Aragorn's summary of it: "There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the
Elves..." and he goes on to confirm that there was no actual slowing of
time, but merely a loss of the _count_ of time. So it really _is_
February 16 inside Lorien.

Christopher

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Is it really February 16 *inside* Lorien? Time goes slower there,
and we don't know anything about how this works, exactly.

Apart from Legolas's response to Frodo in the next chapter, and
Aragorn's summary of it: "There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the
Elves..." and he goes on to confirm that there was no actual slowing of
time, but merely a loss of the _count_ of time. So it really _is_
February 16 inside Lorien.

I have now thought some time about this, and I still think that
*experienced* time is actually slower in Lorien. First, no
moon is visible:

And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon:
only stars by night and sun by day.

So this means there is really some physical effect at work, and not
just influence on the human (or hobbit) mind.

Second, looking closer at what Aragorn says, he doesn't say that
it is "merely" a loss of count of time:

But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time
flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a
new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried
there.

This fits perfectly to the hypothesis that time in the "world outside"
flows faster, but inside it "flows swiftly by". So this *actual*
effect is only the *reason* that Sam "lost count".

Third, since Frodo says "we returned to the time that flows through
mortal lands", he clearly also thinks that there is a difference in
time flow inside and outside of Lorien. He also says "in that land,
maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by".

Fourth, if you consider Lorien as an example of "Faerie", this
takes up the often-used motive in fairy-tales that time goes faster
in the fairy-land. When people who have gone to Faerie return,
often the world has changed and all their friends are dead, while
they have spent only a few nights there.

So what can we make of Legolas comment, then? If one takes it
literally, one might indeed tempted to conclude that all this is only
a "psychological" effect that causes one to loose count of time. But
I think one may take it as a sort of "philosophical" explanation *why*
time is different in Faerie: after all, for Elves "magic" is more like
"philosphy" or "art". (Even though Frodo has to mention Nenya to give
a hint to a "mechanical" explanation :-).

- Dirk

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Is it really February 16 *inside* Lorien? Time goes slower there,
and we don't know anything about how this works, exactly.

Apart from Legolas's response to Frodo in the next chapter, and
Aragorn's summary of it: "There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the
Elves..." and he goes on to confirm that there was no actual slowing
of time, but merely a loss of the _count_ of time. So it really _is_
February 16 inside Lorien.

I have now thought some time about this, and I still think that
*experienced* time is actually slower in Lorien. First, no
only stars by night and sun by day.
So this means there is really some physical effect at work, and not
just influence on the human (or hobbit) mind.

As I said in another post, this absence of a moon is difficult to
explain, but I would not conclude that the flow of time is different.

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Second, looking closer at what Aragorn says, he doesn't say that
But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time
flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a
new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried
there.
This fits perfectly to the hypothesis that time in the "world outside"
flows faster, but inside it "flows swiftly by". So this *actual*
effect is only the *reason* that Sam "lost count".

Note that Aragorn say that _they_ tarried there. Legolas says that time
"does not tarry ever". People can tarry, time does not. People can be
partially removed from the flow of time and have the appearance of
tarrying.

I interpret Aragorn's "there time flowed swiftly by us as for the
Elves", to mean that time flowed _past_ them, rather _through_ them.
Time passes without affecting them, not that time speeds up. I admit
that it would make more sense for Aragorn to say "time flowed by us as
for the Elves", but I think that the 'swiftly' and 'tarried' bits are
his response to Sam and Frodo's questioning the feeling that only a few
days had passed by.

Slightly strained way of interpreting it, but it keeps everything
consistent. And I would defer to Legolas's description of time
experience for the Elves, rather than Aragorn's statement, if I had to
chose.

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Third, since Frodo says "we returned to the time that flows through
mortal lands", he clearly also thinks that there is a difference in
time flow inside and outside of Lorien. He also says "in that land,
maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by".

And I think that he is wrong. As does Legolas. Legolas stirs and says
"Nay.." Legolas is correcting Frodo's mistaken impression.

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Fourth, if you consider Lorien as an example of "Faerie", this
takes up the often-used motive in fairy-tales that time goes faster
in the fairy-land. When people who have gone to Faerie return,
often the world has changed and all their friends are dead, while
they have spent only a few nights there.

But in both our cases, the effects are the same. The difference, and it
is either minor or fundamental, depending on your viewpoint, is that I
think this:

a) The period between waking and sleeping (= one Faerie/Lorien day) is
equal to many periods of waking and sleeping in the real world. This is
because people age and weary at a slower rate in Faerie/Lorien. However,
the same amount of time passes in both places, as measured by some
independent clock.

You (I think) think:

b) The rate of passage of time changes in Faerie/Lorien, which directly
contradicts Legolas's statement that "time does not tarry ever".

Post by Dirk Thierbach
So what can we make of Legolas comment, then? If one takes it
literally, one might indeed tempted to conclude that all this is only
a "psychological" effect that causes one to loose count of time. But
I think one may take it as a sort of "philosophical" explanation *why*
time is different in Faerie: after all, for Elves "magic" is more like
"philosphy" or "art". (Even though Frodo has to mention Nenya to give
a hint to a "mechanical" explanation :-).

I prefer to think that Legolas is giving us a _real_ insight into how
Elves experience time, rather than that he is merely talking
philosophically.

Christopher

[Neil Anderson]

<<snip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[7] This is the Elessar of which we learn next to nothing in LotR, but
quite a lot in Unfin-ished Tales. It will be some time before CotW get
to that!

Could somebody give a little summary of it for those of us who are
UT-challenged?

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
<snip>

There is no certainty to any of the following, as there are many
inconsistencies in the texts provided in UT - eg references to Galadriel
living in 'Greenwood the Great', references to the first Elessar being made
in Gondolin by Celebrimbor (even though he was a Noldo of Nargothrond).

The first was created in Gondolin by a jewel-smith named Enerdhil ('the
greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Feanor') for
Idril. This descended to her son Earendil, and was worn by him when he
sailed into the West. This is mentioned in Bilbo's song in Rivendell ('on
his breast an emerald'). Various powers are attributed to this stone,
including the wearer of it being able to heal the hurst of those he touched.

The second Elessar was created by Celebrimbor for Galadriel in Eregion in
the Second Age. Or possibly it was the same as the first Elessar brought
back to Middle-earth by Gandalf and given to Galadriel.

The name Enerdhil appears in no other text that we know of. I have often
wondered if ultimately he would have replaced Rog (of the Book of Lost
Tales) as the Lord of the House of the Hammer of Wrath, which was the house
to which all the smiths of Gondolin belonged, if JRRT had ever finsihed his
rewrite of the story of Tuor.

Neil Anderson

[AC]

On 7 Jun 2004 13:08:21 -0700,
Kristian Damm Jensen <***@ofir.dk> wrote:

<snip excellent summary>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Comments & Questions
====================
[1] What *would* Gandalf have done, had he survived Moria?

The million dollar question! You know what? I have absolutely no idea.
I've read the book over 20 times and I've asked myself that at least the 18
of them. My instinct says he'd have aided Frodo into Mordor, but would not
have chanced himself entering. But that seems kind of ludicrous too.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[5] Lórien and Fangorn are almost next door neighbours. Are we to take
it, that Celeborn was so ill-informed of what was happening a scant
100 miles from his borders? He didn't even know that Ents lived there?

I think we can see that the Shire-folk weren't the only people that had
become xenophobic and inwardly gazing. It seems pretty surprising, as well,
since Galadriel is obviously very much in tune with what is going on.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[6] Note that at the "official" part of the come-together she defers
to Celeborn in all matters, even to the point of serving him and his
guests. But when we get down to serious business, the parting gifts
(to at least Aragorn, Gimli and Frodo, the gifts were very serious
business) he is entirely on the side.

It reminds me of how the household of Queen Victoria (and apparently
Elizabeth II) was run, with the Prince Consort essentially boss in the inner
circle, but the Queen still head of state.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Gimli is perhaps the most interesting figure in this chapter. The way
he acts he presents a counterpoint to almost all stereotypes of
dwarves. They are greedy, he is modest; they have a harsh tongue, he
soft-spoken and eloquent; they are stout stone-faced warriors, he acts
like a teenager in love. It is in this chapter we really get to know
Gimli, and personally I love this portrayal of him.

Between the behavior of Gimli here and the feelings of Thorin's Co (aside
from Thorin) in the Hobbit, I'm wondering whether the reputation for greed
that the Dwarves have is as much hyperbole and anti-Dwarf rhetoric as
anything else.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock
On 7 Jun 2004 13:08:21 -0700,

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[1] What *would* Gandalf have done, had he survived Moria?

The million dollar question!

Aye!

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock
You know what? I have absolutely no idea.

I suppose that the company would have followed the same course through
Lórien and down the Anduin as they did. The gift of the boats would most
likely still have been bestowed, and from there to Path Galen the course
couldn't have changed much, IMO.

There is of course the question of whether Gandalf and Aragorn would have
been able to catch Gollum, or whether the Nazgûl would have sensed
Gandalf, but those are severe changes in the external circumstances, and
tell us nothing of Gandalf's intentions.

The only text I can find relating to Gandalf's intentions at the breaking
of the fellowship is of uncertainty - expressing the possibility that
Gandalf hadn't thought, or at least planned, as far as that.

"I do not know what design or hope he had for this hour, if
indeed he had any. Most likely it seems that if he were here
now the choice would still wait on you. Such is your fate."

Post by Belba Grubb from Stock
I've read the book over 20 times and I've asked myself that at
least the 18 of them. My instinct says he'd have aided Frodo into
Mordor, but would not have chanced himself entering. But that seems
kind of ludicrous too.

The implication is, I think, that Aragorn and Boromir would have gone the
direct road to Minas Tirith, in which case Gandalf most likely would have
gone with Frodo.

Whether or not he would have dared to enter Mordor would, I think, depend
on whether he believed that Sauron could sense him once he entered Mordor
(though it is perhaps difficult to believe that he would have deserted
Frodo and Sam until he had seen them safely past the borders to that
land).

--
Troels Forchhammer

People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard

[Belba Grubb from Stock]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:52:46 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The implication is, I think, that Aragorn and Boromir would have gone the
direct road to Minas Tirith, in which case Gandalf most likely would have
gone with Frodo.
Whether or not he would have dared to enter Mordor would, I think, depend
on whether he believed that Sauron could sense him once he entered Mordor
(though it is perhaps difficult to believe that he would have deserted
Frodo and Sam until he had seen them safely past the borders to that
land).

It's interesting to ponder how he would have gotten the two hobbits
into Mordor -- not via the Black Gate certainly, but it's said in "The
Black Gate Is Closed" that he would have warned them about Cirith
Ungol, so likely he wouldn't have taken them that way, either. And
somehow I can't imagine him just dropping them off at Mordor as he did
Bilbo and the Dwarves at the entrance to Mirkwood, saying 'it's your
adventure and maybe I'll look in on it later on."

Barb

[Belba Grubb from Stock]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:52:46 GMT, "Troels Forchhammer"

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Whether or not he would have dared to enter Mordor would, I think, depend
on whether he believed that Sauron could sense him once he entered Mordor
(though it is perhaps difficult to believe that he would have deserted
Frodo and Sam until he had seen them safely past the borders to that
land).

Troels,

On rereading my response to this, it doesn't sound right -- I should
have added two words: "I agree" that it's difficult to believe Gandalf
would have left Frodo and Sam (though I think if he had crossed the
fences of Mordor he would have felt obligated to accompany them to the
Mountain). Your pardon, please, if I sounded contentious -- I was
fired up by non-Tolkien things and not expressing myself well here.

Barb

[aelfwina]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
As I signed up to do this chapter I prophesied that I would regret it
when the deadline approached. I was right. But anyway here it is the
ongoing saga of (drums) Chapter Of The Week!!!
Read and (hopefully) enjoy!
Book2, Chapter 8: Farewell to Lórien
To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org
Chapter Summary
===============

(regretful snip of very nice summary)

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Comments & Questions
====================
[1] What *would* Gandalf have done, had he survived Moria?

This is a question I've asked myself many times. The problem is, that since
apparently Gandalf himself didn't even know, it's very hard to guess. I'm
thinking that some other disaster would probably have had to take place to
put him at least temporarily out of the equation. His going to Mordor with
Frodo and Sam would have been unwise at the least, since the closer it got
to Mordor, the stronger the Ring (and its temptations) became.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[2] Lembas has been discussed before in these groups. It "is more
strengthening than any food made by Men" and one cake is "enough for a
long day's march" they "will keep sweet for many many days, if they
are unbroken and left in their leaf-wrappings". Clearly lembas is not
merely physically nourishing, but works rather on a spiritual level.

I'm not Catholic, but I am Christian, and it seems there are overtones of
Communion bread in lembas. Nothing overt, but just a feeling.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[3] Again the ambiguity of elven magic: "Are these magic cloaks?"
Pippin asks. "I do not know what you mean by that," is the reply.
"They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and
branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these
things under the twilight of Lórien that we love; for we put the
thought of all that we love into all that we make. Yet they are
garments, not armour, and they will not turn shaft or blade. But they
should serve you well: they are light to wear, and warm enough or cool
enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of
the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the
trees."
Now, are these cloaks magic?

Again, it shows how *subtle* magic is in Tolkien, when it has to be wondered
at like this. I think there must be an element of what mortals would call
"magic" in them--their durability and their camoflage abilities, for
example, but not what the *Elves* themselves would call magic.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[4] "A high green wall"? A hedge or truly a wall, and if the latter,
then why build a wall?

I've always pictured it as a hedge, but maybe it is a wall, why not build
one?

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[5] Lórien and Fangorn are almost next door neighbours. Are we to take
it, that Celeborn was so ill-informed of what was happening a scant
100 miles from his borders? He didn't even know that Ents lived there?

I think maybe he *did* know about the Ents and Huorns, but had been so out
of touch with them for centuries that he was uncertain of safe they would be
to encounter (answer: not very, unless you are a couple of irrepressible
hobbits)

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[6] Note that at the "official" part of the come-together she defers
to Celeborn in all matters, even to the point of serving him and his
guests. But when we get down to serious business, the parting gifts
(to at least Aragorn, Gimli and Frodo, the gifts were very serious
business) he is entirely on the side.

I think, that as in every successful partnership, each played to his or her
own strengths. And gift-giving seems a very feminine thing.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[7] This is the Elessar of which we learn next to nothing in LotR, but
quite a lot in Unfin-ished Tales. It will be some time before CotW get
to that!
[8] Not the most imaginative of gifts.

Possibly she was aware that Boromir wouldn't need his for long. And as far
as Pippin at least goes, his most important gift was not the belt, but the
brooch for his cloak! And the bow may not have been terribly imaginative,
but I can't think of anything Legolas would have appreciated more, not
mention being darn useful for slaying of fell beasts.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[9] The wit of Galadriel really shows here a small box that would be
almost worthless to most, but is perhaps the most precious thing she
could possibly have given Sam (even had the scouring of the Shire
never happened). Hm. Did she foresee it, when she gave this to Sam?

I think she had some foresight, perhaps from when Sam looked in the mirror.
But even if the Scouring had *not* taken place, it would have been a
wonderful gift for a gardener. (The ultimate plant food; puts Miracle Gro
to shame, LOL!)

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

I had wondered about this for years. I haven't come to any definite
conclusion yet, but it's possible, as another poster has pointed out, that
she actually knew what he would ask for.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[11] That he should remember Galadriel I can understand. But why the
mirror?

I always thought that it was to help him remember any of the scenes that
might have been of use to him.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[12] Wouldn't that be Quenya? But didn't Frodo understand Quenya
perfectly well, as dem-onstrated by his meeting with Gildor in the
Shire-?

Frodo had learned Quenya, but I doubt he was used to hearing it spoken or
sung. If you only know a language from reading it, it's hard to understand
if you hear it in other circumstances. And his conversation with Gildor was
just that, a conversation with an Elf, who to be polite, probably kept it
slow and simple.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[13] I can't blame him. So do I, every time I read this bit.
[14] I'm seriouly under the influence of Shippey: "Tolkien, Author of
the Century" at the moment.

That is an absolutely beautiful quotation. One of the things I love about
reading the newsgroup is when these little snippets of his beautiful poetic
prose get quoted. Sometimes they get lost in context. One tends to see the
forest and not the individual trees when reading the book. This one is
particularly remarkable, and made me want to run look it up.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Character development
=================
In this chapter we see Celeborn for the second time. This time around
he turns out much more favourably than the first. He is kind and
helpful, not wanting to press advice on anyone ("Elves seldom give
unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift" - Gildor) he
nonetheless see an opportunity to help when he offers them boats

I've always liked Celeborn, and don't understand folks who think of him as a
non-entity. He had a *presence* in Lorien.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Galadriel features prominently but I don't feel we learn anything new
about her.

I don't know. Her farewell song shows her deep sorrow and longing for
Valinor, something you don't see earlier.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
We are treated to two sides of Aragorn in this chapter. The undecided
Aragorn, not knowing which way to go: with Frodo to Mordor or with
Boromir to Gondor. This Aragorn will stay with us for quite a long
time (he never truly disappear until the battle of Helms deep), but
from time to time we get a glimpse of the other Aragorn: the "tall and
kingly" Aragorn, that we see for the first time in this chapter.

I like the reminders of Arwen here.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Gimli is perhaps the most interesting figure in this chapter. The way
he acts he presents a counterpoint to almost all stereotypes of
dwarves. They are greedy, he is modest; they have a harsh tongue, he
soft-spoken and eloquent; they are stout stone-faced warriors, he acts
like a teenager in love. It is in this chapter we really get to know
Gimli, and personally I love this portrayal of him.

Gimli certainly shows some interesting facets to his personality; you begin
to see why an Elf becomes his best friend.

Barbara

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Now it's all yours to tear apart and make of what you will. Hopefully
some interesting discussion.
Cheers,
Kristian

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

<snip>

Post by aelfwina
(regretful snip of very nice summary)

Thanks.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina
I'm not Catholic, but I am Christian, and it seems there are overtones of
Communion bread in lembas. Nothing overt, but just a feeling.

That was *exactly* what I had in mind when I wrote the comment, but my
mind was numb from overworking and late hours. Thanks.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[4] "A high green wall"? A hedge or truly a wall, and if the latter,
then why build a wall?

I've always pictured it as a hedge, but maybe it is a wall, why not build
one?

Mainly because it seems so out of place. The Galadrim doesn't seem to
build *anything* on the ground.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[8] Not the most imaginative of gifts.

Possibly she was aware that Boromir wouldn't need his for long.

I doubt if she had foreseen his death. But he knew the danger. When
Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet with Gandalf again and tells him of
Boromir, Gandalf responds: "Galadriel told me that he was in peril.
But he escaped in the end."

There is a lot of discussion hidden there, but I think we should let
it rest for a couple of chapters at least.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[9] The wit of Galadriel really shows here a small box that would be
almost worthless to most, but is perhaps the most precious thing she
could possibly have given Sam (even had the scouring of the Shire
never happened). Hm. Did she foresee it, when she gave this to Sam?

I think she had some foresight, perhaps from when Sam looked in the mirror.
But even if the Scouring had *not* taken place, it would have been a
wonderful gift for a gardener.

Yes. Even a non-gardener should be able to tell from Sams reactions.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

I had wondered about this for years. I haven't come to any definite
conclusion yet, but it's possible, as another poster has pointed out, that
she actually knew what he would ask for.

Hm. Likely. As has been pointed out be another poster, she refused
Feanor even a single strand. Yet the only reaction we see here is "she
smiled". While "The Elves stirred and murmured with astonishment, and
Celeborn gazed ... in wonder" she merely smiles. Doesn't sound as if
she was terribly surprised.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[12] Wouldn't that be Quenya? But didn't Frodo understand Quenya
perfectly well, as dem-onstrated by his meeting with Gildor in the
Shire-?

Frodo had learned Quenya, but I doubt he was used to hearing it spoken or
sung.

He would have picked up some in Rivendell.

Post by aelfwina
If you only know a language from reading it, it's hard to understand
if you hear it in other circumstances. And his conversation with Gildor was
just that, a conversation with an Elf, who to be polite, probably kept it
slow and simple.

I can accept that explanation. Though my english is reasonable (far
better written than spoken, alas) I often have great difficulty
understanding the words of a song.

<snip>

Post by aelfwina
I've always liked Celeborn, and don't understand folks who think of him as a
non-entity. He had a *presence* in Lorien.

Me too. That was one reason I chose this particular chapter.

<snip>

Cheers,
Kristian

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by aelfwina
Frodo had learned Quenya, but I doubt he was used to hearing it spoken or
sung.

He would have picked up some in Rivendell.

Would he have? After Thingol's ban on Quenya in the First Age, I got
the impression that almost no one used it regularly, and there aren't
but a handful of Elves around who came on the march west. The only
one I can think of is Galadriel (Celeborn's origins being rather
obscure -- I don't think Tolkien ever settled on which side of the
ocean he was from, did he?). Does it state Gildor was speaking
Quenya? My immediate assumption would have been it was Sindarin.

Michelle
Flutist

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by aelfwina
Frodo had learned Quenya, but I doubt he was used to hearing it spoken or
sung.

He would have picked up some in Rivendell.

Would he have? After Thingol's ban on Quenya in the First Age, I got
the impression that almost no one used it regularly, and there aren't
but a handful of Elves around who came on the march west.

Quenya was mostly lost as a daily language, but it "lived ever after
as a language of lore, whereever any of [the Noldor] dwelt". That last
would include Rivendell.

Post by Michelle J. Haines
The only
one I can think of is Galadriel (Celeborn's origins being rather
obscure -- I don't think Tolkien ever settled on which side of the
ocean he was from, did he?).

You could at least include Glorfindel in the list. :-)

Post by Michelle J. Haines
Does it state Gildor was speaking
Quenya? My immediate assumption would have been it was Sindarin.

Quenya isn't names anywhere outside the appendices. And we are in fact
never told anything about the language Gildor's elves used among
themselves. What we are told is that "These are High Elves! They spoke
the name of Elbereth!" and that "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" is in
"the high-elven speech". Is this not Quenya?

What I was thinking of, when I refered to Rivendell, was of course the
singing rather than the spoken language. They might differ. So I
summon a scholar: Is Arwen's song beginning "A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna míriel" in quenya or sindarin?

Regards,
Kristian

[Yuk Tang]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by aelfwina
Frodo had learned Quenya, but I doubt he was used to hearing
it spoken or sung.

He would have picked up some in Rivendell.

Would he have? After Thingol's ban on Quenya in the First Age, I
got the impression that almost no one used it regularly, and
there aren't but a handful of Elves around who came on the march
west.

Quenya was mostly lost as a daily language, but it "lived ever
after as a language of lore, whereever any of [the Noldor] dwelt".
That last would include Rivendell.

I thought it was used as a daily language wherever the Noldor lived
as a majority, most notably Gondolin. Sindarin was used where a
significant proportion of Sindar lived, since they followed Thingol's
fatwah and refused to answer to the foreign dialect.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Michelle J. Haines
The only
one I can think of is Galadriel (Celeborn's origins being rather
obscure -- I don't think Tolkien ever settled on which side of
the ocean he was from, did he?).

You could at least include Glorfindel in the list. :-)

Post by Michelle J. Haines
Does it state Gildor was speaking
Quenya? My immediate assumption would have been it was Sindarin.

Quenya isn't names anywhere outside the appendices. And we are in
fact never told anything about the language Gildor's elves used
among themselves. What we are told is that "These are High Elves!
They spoke the name of Elbereth!" and that "Elen síla lúmenn'
omentielvo" is in "the high-elven speech". Is this not Quenya?
What I was thinking of, when I refered to Rivendell, was of course
the singing rather than the spoken language. They might differ. So
I summon a scholar: Is Arwen's song beginning "A Elbereth
Gilthoniel, silivren penna míriel" in quenya or sindarin?

Looks Sindarin to me.

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Post by Yuk Tang

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Quenya was mostly lost as a daily language, but it "lived ever
after as a language of lore, whereever any of [the Noldor] dwelt".
That last would include Rivendell.

I thought it was used as a daily language wherever the Noldor lived
as a majority, most notably Gondolin. Sindarin was used where a
significant proportion of Sindar lived, since they followed Thingol's
fatwah and refused to answer to the foreign dialect.

Check out the last pages of "Of the Noldor in Beleriand" in The
Silmarillion. I was paraphrasing (and quoting) from there.

The exception to the above mentioned rule was that the leader, the
kings and princes, in short the top echelon, of the Noldor kept on
using quenya as a daily language. But by the end of the first age they
were all but wiped out, hence I refrained from going into that much
detail. The rest of the Noldor switched to Sindarin.

<snip>

Kristian

[the softrat]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
What we are told is that "These are High Elves! They spoke
the name of Elbereth!" and that "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" is in
"the high-elven speech". Is this not Quenya?

Yes.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
What I was thinking of, when I refered to Rivendell, was of course the
singing rather than the spoken language. They might differ. So I
summon a scholar: Is Arwen's song beginning "A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna míriel" in quenya or sindarin?

Sindarin.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because
it's safer to pick on rich women than biker gangs.

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Michelle J. Haines
The only
one I can think of is Galadriel (Celeborn's origins being rather
obscure -- I don't think Tolkien ever settled on which side of the
ocean he was from, did he?).

You could at least include Glorfindel in the list. :-)

I couldn't remember if Glorfindel had been born in Valinor and come
back, or born in Middle Earth, killed and returned.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Quenya isn't names anywhere outside the appendices. And we are in fact
never told anything about the language Gildor's elves used among
themselves. What we are told is that "These are High Elves! They spoke
the name of Elbereth!" and that "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" is in
"the high-elven speech". Is this not Quenya?

But isn't Elbereth's name in Quenya "Varda"?

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
What I was thinking of, when I refered to Rivendell, was of course the
singing rather than the spoken language. They might differ. So I
summon a scholar: Is Arwen's song beginning "A Elbereth Gilthoniel,
silivren penna míriel" in quenya or sindarin?

For some reason I thought that was Galadriel's song. But in starting
with Elbereth, that would make it beginning in Sindarin, wouldn't it?

I don't know, it's late, IDHTBIFOM, and I'll have to look it up
later.

Michelle
Flutist

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Michelle J. Haines

What we are told is that "These are High Elves! They spoke the name
of Elbereth!" and that "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" is in "the
high-elven speech". Is this not Quenya?

But isn't Elbereth's name in Quenya "Varda"?

The point is that they mentioned Elbereth/Varda at all. And since they
don't use the "high-elven speech" (Quenya) normally, they call her
"Elbereth" in Sindarin. So when Frodo speaks the short Quenya sentence
(after having them identified as high-elves), Gildor is surprised,
because Frodo knows some words a language that is normally not used.
So Frodo shows that he knows something about the high-elves, and Gildor
acknowledges that. An polite exchange of compliments, if you want :-)

- Dirk

[Trevor Barrie]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
But isn't Elbereth's name in Quenya "Varda"?

To be precise, Elbereth is the Sindarin translation of the Quenya word
Elentari, "Star-Queen", a title of the Vala whose proper name is Varda.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by aelfwina
I'm not Catholic, but I am Christian, and it seems there are
overtones of Communion bread in lembas. Nothing overt, but
just a feeling.

That was *exactly* what I had in mind when I wrote the comment, but
my mind was numb from overworking and late hours. Thanks.

There's a couple of passages implying this in Letters:

Letters #210, 1958
" In the book lembas has two functions. It is a 'machine' or
device for making credible the long marches with little
provision, in a world in which as I have said 'miles are
miles'. But that is relatively unimportant. It also has a much
larger significance, of what one might hesitatingly call a
'religious' kind. This becomes later apparent, especially in
the chapter 'Mount Doom' (III 213[5] and subsequently). I
cannot find that Z has made any particular use of lembas even
as a device; and the whole of 'Mount Doom' has disappeared in
the distorted confusion that Z has made of the ending. As far
as I can see lembas might as well disappear altogether."
[5] "The /lembas/ had a virtue without which they would long
ago have lain down to die. .... It fed the will, and it gave
strength to endure, and to master sinew and limb beyond the
measure of mortal kind."

Letter #213, 1958
"Another saw in waybread (lembas)= viaticum and the reference
to its feeding the will (vol. III, p. 213) and being more
potent when fasting, a derivation from the Eucharist. (That
is: far greater things may colour the mind in dealing with the
lesser things of a fairy-story.)"

I usually read this as meaning that he acknowledges the inspiration
(perhaps not conscious) from the Eucharist for the lembas.

I seem to remember reading something a bit more specific, but I can't
find it at the moment, nor where I read it or if it was by Christopher or
JRR - sorry.

--
Troels Forchhammer

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
- (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)

[Henriette]

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[3] Again the ambiguity of elven magic: "Are these magic cloaks?"
Pippin asks. "I do not know what you mean by that," is the reply.

(snip)

Post by aelfwina

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Now, are these cloaks magic?

Again, it shows how *subtle* magic is in Tolkien, when it has to be wondered
at like this. I think there must be an element of what mortals would call
"magic" in them--their durability and their camoflage abilities, for
example, but not what the *Elves* themselves would call magic.

I agree with this answer, although I would like to somewhat amplify
it: ofcourse to *us* a garment which changes hue according to the
surroundings and which is warm or cold according to our needs, is a
very magical cloak! But apparently Elves would not look at it that way
or maybe just call it by a different name.

Henriette

[Taemon]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
It is in this chapter we really
get to know Gimli, and personally I love this portrayal
of him.

I do too, but I still think it's silly he falls in love with
Galadriel. Would you appreciate someone's beauty if they're twice
as long as you are with half the girth? Golden hair or no, those
elves must have looked like spaghetti to him.

T.

[Trevor Barrie]

Post by Taemon
I do too, but I still think it's silly he falls in love with
Galadriel. Would you appreciate someone's beauty if they're twice
as long as you are with half the girth?

Depends on how short and fat I am.

[aelfwina]

Post by Taemon

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
It is in this chapter we really
get to know Gimli, and personally I love this portrayal
of him.

I do too, but I still think it's silly he falls in love with
Galadriel. Would you appreciate someone's beauty if they're twice
as long as you are with half the girth? Golden hair or no, those
elves must have looked like spaghetti to him.

I don't think he is *in* love with Galadriel, I think he *loves* her, and
not just for her beautiful hair, but as I mentioned, for her kindness to
him. There is no mention of his looking at her in wonder until after her
kind words to him about Moria. I think it's a worship from afar thing, akin
to the *ideal* (as opposed to the reality) of courtly love by an honorable
person for someone considered perfect and unattainable.
Barbara

Post by Taemon
T.

[Taemon]

Post by aelfwina

Post by Taemon
I do too, but I still think it's silly he falls in love
with Galadriel. Would you appreciate someone's beauty
if they're twice as long as you are with half the
girth?

I don't think he is *in* love with Galadriel, I think he
*loves* her, and not just for her beautiful hair, but as
I mentioned, for her kindness to him.

Maybe you are right, maybe I'm suffering movie-ism here. This
talk about looks always gets me crabby and when someone of
another race falls for it, it gets ridiculous. So. I guess I'll
switch to your interpretation.

T.

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Upon thanking her, Aragorn's last words are "O Lady of Lórien of whom
were sprung Celebrían and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say
more?" Those who kept their eyes open in Rivendell will now understand
what this was all about. To all others it will remain a mystery for a
further 600 pages. :-)

Eh. As hints go, it's a pretty thin one. I remembered Arwen from
Rivendell, but this hardly screams out "They're getting married!"
Also, I spent multiple rereads, until I was old enough to brave the
appendices (I think a year or two after I read the whole thing
through, so somewhere around 12?), trying to figure out who the heck
Celebrian was, and how Arwen was supposed to be related to Galadriel.
It really took me quite a while, because it's not spelled out even in
the appendices, that Galadriel was Arwen's grandmother.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
At last she turns to Frodo, and gives him phial in which the light of
Eärendil's star has been caught. She adds: "Remember Galadriel and her
Mirror!" [11]
[11] That he should remember Galadriel I can understand. But why the
mirror?

Presumably she wants him to remember any important revelations he
received from their encounter.

Michelle
Flutist

[John Jones]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[8] Not the most imaginative of gifts.

As an archer, I have always thought that Legolas' original bow was a light
hunting bow. The one given to him by Galadriel (I suspect) was a war-bow;
it was 'longer and stronger' than the original. The Company had already had
some fighting, and there was more than a likelihood of warfare ahead, so it
was a good idea to equip Legolas with a serious weapon.

[Count Menelvagor]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
As I signed up to do this chapter I prophesied that I would regret it
when the deadline approached. I was right. But anyway here it is the
ongoing saga of (drums) Chapter Of The Week!!!
Now, are these cloaks magic?

Elves seem to have a different perspective on "magic" from that of
mortals. In the previous chapter, Galadriel comments that she's not
sure what the word means, since it is also used of the "deceits of the
enemy." Essentiall, mortals use it of almost any power that they
cannot understand.

Some writers of the Renaissance distinguished "magia" or white magic
from "goetia" or black magic; but both seem to involve mucking about
with demons. Elvish "magic" doesn't involve incantations, books,
drawing circles, etc., etc., but seems to proceed from their very
nature. I think it's connected to the fact that they're closer to the
earth and its elements than mortals are. (Tolkien in "On Fairy Tales"
calls this kind of magic "enchantment," while reserving "magic" for
the book-and-circle stuff done by "magicians."

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she simply
have sent for it?

I think, as others have suggested, that Galadriel knew more or less
what Gimli would do, having gotten an idea of what he, and the other
members of the Fellowship, were made of upon their arrival. But she
wanted to show to the other Elves, especially Celeborn, what kind of a
person Gimli was, and that -- to put it crudely -- anti-Dwarf bigotry
was crap. *Tolkien* likely planned this passage with aview to
depicting the triumph of an idealized love over prejudice. (This
love, I suppose, lies somehwere between "charity" in the Christian
sense, and "courtly love"; Gimli has something of the troubadour about
him.)

I think the portrayal of the relationship betwee Gimli and Galadriel
is one of the best things in the book, and deepens both characters.
Note that Gimli not only belies the prejudices against Dwarves (as
Galadriel explicitly points out), but also exhibits their good
qualities: love of beauty and gratitude for kindness.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Galadriel features prominently but I don't feel we learn anything new
about her.

As someone else pointed out, we see her nostalgia for Valinor. In
fact, in this chapter we come closest to seeing *inside* her, through
her songs; for most of the Lorien episode, we only view her from
outside.

The gifts provide a sort of bond between the characters and Galdriel,
allowing her a presence later in the story -- and referring back to
Lorien (as her mirror had looked *forward* to later events).

I wonder a bit what is meant by "Alrady she seemed to him, as by men
of later days Elves still at times are seen: present and yet remote, a
living vision of tht which has already been left far behind by the
flowing streams of Time." Clearly a foreshadowing of the eventual
loss and fading of the Elves, and full of the sense of loss that
permeates all of Tolkien's best work. (For more on this, see below;
although the best part comes in the next chapter.)

A couple of other points:

Fangorn vs. Lorien: the two places typify different relations between
the past and present; or rather, their inhabitants represent different
approaches to that relation. Lorien tries to preserve the past
undefiled, while Fangorn preserves a *living* past that continues to
engage the present. This will become clear in the "Treebeard"
chapter. (Tolkien wrote a poem contrasting these two relations to the
past during WWI.)

Sung Quenya: sung words *are* harder to grasp until one has gotten
used to listening to them. Although I was able to read Italian
fluently, it took me a while before I could grasp what was going on
when listening to an opera.

[Henriette]

Post by Count Menelvagor
I wonder a bit what is meant by "Alrady she seemed to him, as by men
of later days Elves still at times are seen: present and yet remote, a
living vision of tht which has already been left far behind by the
flowing streams of Time."
Clearly a foreshadowing of the eventual
loss and fading of the Elves, and full of the sense of loss that
permeates all of Tolkien's best work.

What is left to add? I think you explain it beautifully.

Post by Count Menelvagor
(snip)sung words *are* harder to grasp until one has gotten
used to listening to them. Although I was able to read Italian
fluently, it took me a while before I could grasp what was going on
when listening to an opera.

As you may be well aware, it is quite an art to pronounce words well
when singing, especially on high notes. Now some schools of singing
favour the beauty of the sung tone(pitch, resonance, brilliance) over
the understandability. Other schools think pronunciation (so the
capability of the audience to understand the sung words)is more
important, and they think it is sometimes inevitable the individual
note may suffer somewhat from it. A good composer though, takes
singing technique into account when composing and e.g. does not let a
soprano/tenor sing a high C on the EE-vowel.

Henriette

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Count Menelvagor <***@mailandnews.com> wrote:

[about Galadriel and Lorien, and Treebeard and Fangorn, and Time,
quoting from 'Farewell to Lorien', FotR, and prompting me to think about
and quote some 'time' and 'sense of loss' passages from elsewhere in the
book]

I wonder a bit what is meant by "Already she seemed to him, as by men
of later days Elves still at times are seen: present and yet remote, a
living vision of that which has already been left far behind by the
flowing streams of Time." Clearly a foreshadowing of the eventual
loss and fading of the Elves, and full of the sense of loss that
permeates all of Tolkien's best work.

<snip>

Fangorn vs. Lorien: the two places typify different relations between
the past and present; or rather, their inhabitants represent different
approaches to that relation. Lorien tries to preserve the past
undefiled, while Fangorn preserves a *living* past that continues to
engage the present.

Only after a pair of hobbits set the avalanche in motion!

This will become clear in the "Treebeard"
chapter. (Tolkien wrote a poem contrasting these two relations to the
past during WWI.)

Which poem is this, and where is it published?

Your comments on Lorien and Fangorn got me thinking about Rivendell and
the House of Tom Bombadil again. I think the sentences that most clearly
contrast these four places are:

1) "Whether the morning and evening of one day or of many days had
passed Frodo could not tell. He did not fell either hungry or tired,
only filled with wonder." ('In the House of Tom Bombadil', FotR)

2) "Almost it seemes that the words took shape, and visions of far lands
and bright things that he had never yet imagined opened up before him;
and the firelit hall became like a golden mist above seas of foam that
sighed upon the margins of the world." ('Many Meetings', FotR)

3) "In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lorien the
ancient things still lived on in the waking world." [and] "On the land
of Lorien there was no stain." ('Lothlorien', FotR)

4) "One felt as if there was an enormous well behind them, filled up
with ages of memory and long, slow, steady thinking; but their surface
was sparkling with the present: like sun shimmering on the outer leaves
of a vast tree, or on the ripples of a very deep lake." ('Treebeard',
TT)

And finally, your quote of the 'remote Galadriel' description made me
think of two other passages from the book. The first is very relevant,
the second is somewhat more intriguing, but very relevant to the sense
of loss you mention.

1) It recalled to me how Galadriel in the previous chapter ('The Mirror
of Galadriel', after she refused the Ring), said she will "diminish, and
go into the West, and remain Galadriel." This is her acceptance of the
fate of the Rings and the fading of Lorien and the Elves in general, so
I would say that this bit is not just a foreshadowing of the fading of
the Elves (as you mentioned), but also a foreshadowing of the future of
Galadriel: "But Galadriel sat upon a white palfrey and was robed all in
glimmering white, like clouds about the Moon, for she herself seemed to
shine with a soft light." ('The Grey Havens', RotK)

2) The "flowing streams of Time" bit reminded me of the description of
Gollum on the stairs of Cirith Ungol: "shrunken by the years that had
_carried_ him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the
fields and streams of youth, an old starved and pitiable thing." (my
emphasis)

So we see here another holding back of Time, but by the devices of the
Enemy. It is maybe a travesty of the same process that is at work in
Rivendell, Lorien and Fangorn. The flowing of Time is also seen in the
songs of Rohan, 'laden with the sadness of mortal men': "Who shall
gather the smoke of the dead wood burning/ Or behold the flowing years
from the Sea returning?"

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:***@posting.google.com>
"Kristian Damm Jensen" <***@ofir.dk> enriched us with:
<snip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Book2, Chapter 8: Farewell to Lórien

Very well done Kristian.
<Sjællandsk - Roskildeegnen>
"Died ka' du gåt viære stolt a'!"

;-)

<snip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
During the discussion Boromir makes a Freudian slip, revealing how
the ring is beginning to draw him. No one notices, except Frodo.

And Sam, I deem. More because of his explanation to Faramir in IV,5
'The Window on the West';

"[...] it's my opinion that in Lórien he first saw clearly
what I guessed sooner: what he wanted. From the moment he first
saw it he wanted the Enemy's Ring!"

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Next morning Haldir returns to be their guide. He tells of the
Dimrill Dale full of vapour and clouds of smoke, trouble mountains,
and noises in the deeps of the earth

The battle at the peak of Zirak-zigil was January 23rd to 25th, and
the Company left Lórien on the 16th of February. I guess that part of
the vapour and troubled mountains may have been due to this - Gandalf
says later that "Those that looked up from afar thought that the
mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning,
they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues
of fire." This sounds to me as if it might fit quite well with at
least part of Haldir's description (he had returned to the border -
my impression is that he went quite soon after their arrival in
Caras Galadhon on January 17th).

<bigsnip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[3] Again the ambiguity of elven magic: "Are these magic cloaks?"
Pippin asks. "I do not know what you mean by that," is the reply.
"They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean.

[...]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight
of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the
trees."
Now, are these cloaks magic?

To answer that I think we need to look at how Tolkien perceived
Elvish magic. I have collected a couple of relevant quotations from
Letters and /On Fairy Stories/ below.

[Letters #131, 1951?]
" I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the
Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the
Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the
devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the
Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the
latter (since all human stories have suffered the same
confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to
demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered
from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more
quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed
correspondence). And its object is Art not Power,
sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of
Creation."
[...]
"But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their
nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid
of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an
ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as
applied to the gods)."


[Letters #155, 1954]
" I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and
especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and others
show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that
the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a
v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you
so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice,
temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is
found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a
pseudo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve
myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real
or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for
the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a
latent distinction such as once was called the distinction
between /magia/ and /goeteia/.[1] Galadriel speaks of the
'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but /magia/ could be,
was, held good (per se), and /goeteia/ bad. Neither is, in
this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or
purpose or use.
[...]
Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story
is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is
in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as
such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical',
or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic'
processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who
have very little notions of philosophy and science; while
A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the
'children of Luthien'.[2]"
[1] "Greek Goeteia* (Goech*, sorcerer); the English form
Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic
performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits;
necromancy.'"
* written with Greek letters in original
[2] "Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written: 'But
the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?'"

/On Fairy Stories/, 'Fantasy'

"You are deluded - whether that is the intention of the elves
(always or at any time) is another question. They at any
rate are not themselves deluded. This is for them a form of
Art, and distinct from Wizardry or Magic, properly so
called. They do not live in it, though they can, perhaps,
afford to spend more time at it than human artists can. The
Primary World, Reality, of elves and men is the same, if
differently valued and perceived.
We need a word for this elvish craft, but all the words
that have been applied to it have been blurred and confused
with other things. Magic is ready to hand, and I have used
it above (p. 39), but I should not have done so: Magic
should be reserved for the operations of the Magician. Art
is the human process that produces by the way (it is not
its only or ultimate object) Secondary Belief. Art of the
same sort, if more skilled and effortless, the elves can
also use, or so the reports seem to show; but the more
potent and specially elvish craft I will, for lack of a
less debatable word, call Enchantment. Enchantment produces
a Secondary World into which both designer and spectator
can enter, to the satisfaction of their senses while they
are inside; but in its purity it is artistic in desire and
purpose. Magic produces, or pretends to produce, an
alteration in the Primary World. It does not matter by whom
it is said to be practised, fay or mortal, it remains
distinct from the other two; it is not an art but a
technique; its desire is power in this world, domination of
things and wills."

OK, that was rather extensive, but, I hope, of interest ;-)

I don't doubt that the cloaks were made with the use of this Elvish
Art - they were enchanted, so to speak. Saying that they were magical
would, in the sense of the Hobbits, be true, because they, as
Galadriel noted earlier, "to use the same word of the deceits of the
Enemy" as they do for the Elvish Art (or craft). However, in our
debate we should, IMO, allow ourselves to distinguish (though
Tolkien's discussion of /magia/ and /goeteia/ in letter #155 suggests
that the difference is not in the 'magic' per se, but rather in the
motives and intentions of the use of it).

<snip>

[The gifts to Boromir (belt), Legolas (bow) Merry and Pippin (belts)]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[8] Not the most imaginative of gifts.

<snip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[10] What is this? Didn't she plan for a gift to Gimli, since she has
to ask him? What if he had desired a full chain mail, would she
simply have sent for it?

Probably she knew that he wouldn't ask for that ;-)

I don't think that she knew /exactly/ what he would ask, but I
suspect that she had some kind of general idea that he would want
something to commemorate his 'conversion' that occurred in Lórien.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[11] That he should remember Galadriel I can understand. But why the
mirror?

What did Frodo see in the Mirror:

1. Gandalf (I'm sure, though Frodo is not).
2. Bilbo
3. "many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be
parts of a great history in which he had become involved"
4. The Sea
5. "the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out
of the West"
6. "a white fortress with seven towers"
7. "a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun"
8. "A smoke as of fire and battle"
9. "and into the mist a small ship passed away"
10. The eye

It is not entirely clear what the meaning of all of these are - in
particular I think that 5, 6 and 9 are unclear, though in the light
of 7 and 8 I think it most likely that 6 is Minas Tirith (the banner
of the kings, and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, I believe).

Is 5 the ship of Isildur arriving out of the Akallabeth?

Which of these, however, might be of use for Frodo?

1, if it really is Gandalf and Frodo had interpreted correctly might
of course have brought the same sense of comfort as 2, but apart from
a calming effect, I doubt that this is it.

The next visions, 3, would of course help Frodo getting an overview
of the events, as would 6 through 8 (if I'm right in my
identification), even if 8 seems to be in the future (but so was part
of Sam's vision).

The eye of course was just terrifying, so that can't have helped much
either.

However, already in I,5 'A Conspiracy Unmasked' and in I,8 'Fog on
the Barrow-Downs' we see Frodo having dreams about the Sea and (I
think) his arrival to Valinor / Tol Eressëa, and I think that the
glimpses of this, in particular 4 and 9 above, would be of some help
to Frodo.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[12] Wouldn't that be Quenya? But didn't Frodo understand Quenya
perfectly well, as demonstrated by his meeting with Gildor in
the Shire-?

I don't get the impression that Frodo is very skilled in Quenya,
"Bilbo was a good master," said Gildor, but of Frodo it is said: "He
knew /a little/ of the elf-speech and listened eagerly. Now and again
he spoke to those that served him and thanked them in their own
language" (My emphasis). Frodo may have known enough to catch a bit
here and there (and it may even have been Sindarin, as others have
noted), and still not enough to catch Galadriel's song.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[13] I can't blame him. So do I, every time I read this bit.

Hear!

<snip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
In this chapter we see Celeborn for the second time. This time around
he turns out much more favourably than the first. He is kind and
helpful, not wanting to press advice on anyone ("Elves seldom give
unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift" – Gildor) he
nonetheless see an opportunity to help when he offers them boats

'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both east and
west' or perhaps neither ;-)

But I quite agree - the Portrayal of Celeborn is much more favourable
here.

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Galadriel features prominently but I don't feel we learn anything new
about her.

I think the potential is there.

There is the shock at Gimli's request: "The Elves stirred and
murmured with astonishment, and Celeborn gazed at the Dwarf in
wonder," which, I think does tell us a bit (in particular in the view
of her refusal to Fëanor as others have related). I am reminded also
of the meaning of her 'original' name, Altariel: "Goldilocks" anyone?

<snip>

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Gimli is perhaps the most interesting figure in this chapter.

[...]

Agreed!

[Yuk Tang]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Next morning Haldir returns to be their guide. He tells of the
Dimrill Dale full of vapour and clouds of smoke, trouble
mountains, and noises in the deeps of the earth

The battle at the peak of Zirak-zigil was January 23rd to 25th,
and the Company left Lórien on the 16th of February. I guess that
part of the vapour and troubled mountains may have been due to
this - Gandalf says later that "Those that looked up from afar
thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they
heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped
back broken into tongues of fire." This sounds to me as if it
might fit quite well with at least part of Haldir's description
(he had returned to the border - my impression is that he went
quite soon after their arrival in Caras Galadhon on January 17th).

Also reminiscent of the (at least partial) sinking of Beleriand after
the War of Wrath. If two Maiar duking it out could raise such a din,
imagine whole armies of them. One would also wonder at the hardiness
of the Noldor and Vanyar who could survive in such a war, the Exiles
and the Edain having been effectively wiped out by that point.

[t***@hotmail.com]

Post by Yuk Tang
Also reminiscent of the (at least partial) sinking of Beleriand after
the War of Wrath. If two Maiar duking it out could raise such a din,
imagine whole armies of them. One would also wonder at the hardiness
of the Noldor and Vanyar who could survive in such a war, the Exiles
and the Edain having been effectively wiped out by that point.

I wonder how many elves drowned when Beleriand sunk. Probably quite
a lot.

[AC]

On 19 Jun 2004 17:53:07 GMT,

Post by t***@hotmail.com

Post by Yuk Tang
Also reminiscent of the (at least partial) sinking of Beleriand after
the War of Wrath. If two Maiar duking it out could raise such a din,
imagine whole armies of them. One would also wonder at the hardiness
of the Noldor and Vanyar who could survive in such a war, the Exiles
and the Edain having been effectively wiped out by that point.

I wonder how many elves drowned when Beleriand sunk. Probably quite
a lot.

There were two stages to Beleriand's demise. The first was the Was the War
of Wrath, and then the fall of Numenor and the rounding of the world. As
memory serves pieces of Beleriand did survive (beyond Lindon) as islands, of
which Britain is one. My feeling is that any Elves killed in the War of
Wrath were killed by Morgoth's forces. As to how many Elves were killed by
the rounding of the World, I can't think of any reference at all. Clearly
the likes of Gil-galad survived it.

[t***@hotmail.com]

Post by AC
On 19 Jun 2004 17:53:07 GMT,

Post by t***@hotmail.com

Post by Yuk Tang
Also reminiscent of the (at least partial) sinking of Beleriand after
the War of Wrath. If two Maiar duking it out could raise such a din,
imagine whole armies of them. One would also wonder at the hardiness
of the Noldor and Vanyar who could survive in such a war, the Exiles
and the Edain having been effectively wiped out by that point.

I wonder how many elves drowned when Beleriand sunk. Probably quite
a lot.

There were two stages to Beleriand's demise. The first was the Was the War
of Wrath, and then the fall of Numenor and the rounding of the world. As

Okay I didn't realize the ME continent was changed yet again because of the
fall of Numenor. I assumed the 2nd age ME map was the same as the 3rd age
one despite the rounding of the Earth.

Post by AC
memory serves pieces of Beleriand did survive (beyond Lindon) as islands, of
which Britain is one. My feeling is that any Elves killed in the War of
Wrath were killed by Morgoth's forces.

That could be. But I had pictured a big tidal wave drowning thousands of
elves and others.

Post by AC
As to how many Elves were killed by
the rounding of the World, I can't think of any reference at all. Clearly
the likes of Gil-galad survived it.

I'm not sure either but my own guess would be that the rounding of the world
wouldn't cause any deaths, having been done by Eru, but the change in ME during
the war against Morgoth probably would have.

[AC]

On 20 Jun 2004 00:07:02 GMT,

Post by t***@hotmail.com

Post by AC
As to how many Elves were killed by
the rounding of the World, I can't think of any reference at all. Clearly
the likes of Gil-galad survived it.

I'm not sure either but my own guess would be that the rounding of the world
wouldn't cause any deaths, having been done by Eru, but the change in ME during
the war against Morgoth probably would have.

It's hard to imagine Eru killing Elves (and maybe even Men, after all the
tumults must have hit much of the coastline of the Sea), and yet I think it
would mean special protection. Maybe the Valar and/or Eru helped out the
innocent people of ME like they helped Elendil and his folk.

[Odysseus]

Troels Forchhammer wrote:
[snip]
[Note to Letter #155]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
[1] "Greek Goeteia* (Goech*, sorcerer); the English form
Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic
performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits;
necromancy.'"
* written with Greek letters in original

The second word should be _goês_: Gamma, Omicron, Eta, Sigma; perhaps
you read the last as Chi. "Enchanter" might be a better translation
(on etymological grounds, at least) as the root, _goaô_, means
something like "to wail" or "to howl". _Goêteia_ also means
"juggling" or "cheatery".

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:***@yahoo-dot.ca> Odysseus
<odysseus1479-***@yahoo-dot.ca> enriched us with:
<snip>

Post by Odysseus
The second word should be _goês_: Gamma, Omicron, Eta, Sigma; perhaps
you read the last as Chi.

I did, thanks.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Troels Forchhammer <***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
1. Gandalf (I'm sure, though Frodo is not).
2. Bilbo

But *when* ? Is this Bilbo in Rivendell waiting for their return?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
3. "many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be
parts of a great history in which he had become involved"

You seem to think of your (3) as a separate vision. I think it is rather
a prelude that explains what your (4)-(9) below are. I've added what I
think they are.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
4. The Sea

Probably before the Downfall. By my reasoning above, all these images
have to be "parts of a great history in which he had become involved",
and _also_ probably in chronological order. This bit: "Darkness fell" is
probably the actual Downfall of Numenor, followed by the great storm.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
5. "the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out
of the West"

One of the three ships of the Faithful that escaped the Downfall.

Just before your next item Frodo sees Osgiliath as well, the populous
city with a wide river flowing through it.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
6. "a white fortress with seven towers"

Unclear. Probably Minas Tirith, but I can't find any clear references to
seven towers for any of the cities of Arnor or Gondor. I agree with you
that the following two references make it likely that this is Minas
Tirith.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
7. "a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun"

Aragorn arriving at Pelennor. Frodo also sees a ship with black sails,
which is Aragorn's commandeering of the Corsair ships.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
8. "A smoke as of fire and battle"

Pelennor. The identification is made certain by the "sun went down in a
burning red" bit. Compare with "red fell the dew in Rammas Echor".

Post by Troels Forchhammer
9. "and into the mist a small ship passed away"

Almost certainly the Last Ship.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
10. The eye
It is not entirely clear what the meaning of all of these are - in
particular I think that 5, 6 and 9 are unclear, though in the light
of 7 and 8 I think it most likely that 6 is Minas Tirith (the banner
of the kings, and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, I believe).
Is 5 the ship of Isildur arriving out of the Akallabeth?

Bear in mind that the Mirror shows things that were, things that are and
things that may yet come to pass. Some of these "future" visions may be
slightly different to what actually happened.

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

<snip>
I'll bring in quotations a this point, I think - just for reference ;-)

"I am not a counsellor. You may learn something, and whether
what you see be fair or evil, that may be profitable, and yet
it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think,
Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the
venture, or I would not have brought you here. Do as you will!'
'I will look,' said Frodo, and he climbed on the pedestal
and bent over the dark water."

Go not to the Elves ... ;-)

==
"At once the Mirror cleared and he saw a twilit land. Mountains
loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky. A long grey
road wound back out of sight. Far away a figure came slowly
down the road, faint and small at first, but growing larger
and clearer as it approached. Suddenly Frodo realized that it
reminded him of Gandalf. He almost called aloud the wizard's
name, and then he saw that the figure was clothed not in grey
but in white, in a white that shone faintly in the dusk; and
in its hand there was a white staff. The head was so bowed
that he could see no face, and presently the figure turned
aside round a bend in the road and went out of the Mirror's
view. Doubt came into Frodo's mind: was this a vision of
Gandalf on one of his many lonely journeys long ago, or was it
Saruman?"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
1. Gandalf (I'm sure, though Frodo is not).

Here as well your question might be relevant: "But *when* ?" and also
where?

==
The vision now changed. Brief and small but very vivid he
caught a glimpse of Bilbo walking restlessly about his room.
The table was littered with disordered papers; rain was
beating on the windows.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
2. Bilbo

But *when* ? Is this Bilbo in Rivendell waiting for their return?

My impression has always been that this was cast in the present, but now
I am not so cocksure about it. It /might/ be Bilbo in Bag End, though I
think that Frodo (or rather the Author) would have 'commented' on that. I
think it is Bilbo in Rivendell during the quest, though I won't venture a
guess as to the exact time.

==
3.
" Then there was a pause, and after it many swift scenes
followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great
history in which he had become involved."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
You seem to think of your (3) as a separate vision. I think it is
rather a prelude that explains what your (4)-(9) below are. I've
added what I think they are.

You may be right - that would mean that the mist clearing before 4. is
the end of the pause mentioned above. I've understood it to be where the
"series of swift scenes" (imagining them to be more like the fast-paced
cutting of a music video) faded into a calmer sequence.

==
"The mist cleared and he saw a sight which he had never seen
before but knew at once: the Sea. Darkness fell. The sea rose
and raged in a great storm."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
4. The Sea

Probably before the Downfall. By my reasoning above, all these images
have to be "parts of a great history in which he had become involved",
and _also_ probably in chronological order.

I find the idea of chronological ordering compelling - at least in this
sequence (from the Sea to the small ship). Both Bilbo and the Eye would
obviously not fit into that. Whether these were preceded by other 'swift
scenes' or not is, I think, in this context irrelevant.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
This bit: "Darkness fell" is probably the actual Downfall of Numenor,
followed by the great storm.

Very likely. There is, IIRC, no real storm scenes associated with the sea
in LotR except the account of the Akallabêth in the appendices (rhymes
also with Faramir's dream of the great wave).

==
"Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack
of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails
riding up out of the West."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
5. "the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out
of the West"

One of the three ships of the Faithful that escaped the Downfall.

Agreed. And that would associate almost certainly associate the storm
above with the Downfall.

==
"Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a
white fortress with seven towers."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Just before your next item Frodo sees Osgiliath as well, the populous
city with a wide river flowing through it.

Right, the Anduin and Osgiliath, as you say.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
6. "a white fortress with seven towers"

Unclear. Probably Minas Tirith, but I can't find any clear references
to seven towers for any of the cities of Arnor or Gondor. I agree
with you that the following two references make it likely that this
is Minas Tirith.

I think Tirion has been mentioned earlier, but following the logic of
your idea about chronological ordering of this sequence, I think it must
almost certainly be Minas Tirith.

==
"And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning
again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing
the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
7. "a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun"

Aragorn arriving at Pelennor. Frodo also sees a ship with black sails,
which is Aragorn's commandeering of the Corsair ships.

Agreed.

"And then again a ship with black sails" - does this mean that the
previous ship's torn sails were black as well? I know that Second Age
Númenóreans used black sails, but have we been told the colour of the
sails of the Exiles?

==
"A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went
down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist;"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
8. "A smoke as of fire and battle"

Pelennor. The identification is made certain by the "sun went down in
a burning red" bit. Compare with "red fell the dew in Rammas Echor".

And in the context of our previous identifications an inevitable
conclusion, I agree.

==
"and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with
lights. It vanished, and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw
away."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
9. "and into the mist a small ship passed away"

Almost certainly the Last Ship.

Being the ship Frodo himself sailed on, yes (a misnomer, apparently,
though Legolas built his ship himself).

==
But suddenly the Mirror went altogether dark, as dark as if
a hole had opened in the world of sight, and Frodo looked into
emptiness. In the black abyss there appeared a single Eye that
slowly grew. until it filled nearly all the Mirror."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
10. The eye

And that part ends:

"The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy,
heavier than a great stone, and his head was dragged
downwards. The Mirror seemed to be growing hot and curls of
steam were rising from the water. He was slipping forward.
'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly.
The vision faded, and Frodo found that he was looking at the
cool stars twinkling in the silver basin. He stepped back
shaking all over and looked at the Lady."

I am still curious to hear more speculations on why Galadriel warned
Frodo not to touch the water. What would have happened if he did?

Had it ruined the effect - so what, they were already done at that point,
and it didn't seem to be extremely difficult for her to create the
Mirror:
"With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin to the
brim, and breathed on it, and when the water was still again
she spoke. 'Here is the Mirror of Galadriel,' she said."

Would it have revealed Frodo to Sauron? The increased weight of the Ring
implies, I think, that It senses something, at least.

Other ideas?

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer

It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Troels Forchhammer <***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

[about the Mirror of Galadriel visions]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
"And then again a ship with black sails" - does this mean that the
previous ship's torn sails were black as well? I know that Second Age
Númenóreans used black sails, but have we been told the colour of the
sails of the Exiles?

I think the first (Exiles) ship is merely a silhouette. The quote says
"black outline", so the sails are not necessarily black, and most
probably aren't. The Corsairs have black sails, but I would guess not
the 'good' Numenoreans.

BTW, we are in the wrong chapter thread, you know!

[changing tack slightly: you correctly accent 'Númenóreans', but
'Númenor' does not have an acute accent on the 'o'. What is going on
here?]

I am also getting very confused with the CotW. I count at least 6 and
maybe more CotW threads active at the moment. Just think... Maybe
sometime next year we can have 62 simultaneous threads running on all of
the chapters! And that doesn't even include the appendices or preface.

Christopher

[Matthew Woodcraft]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[changing tack slightly: you correctly accent 'Númenóreans', but
'Númenor' does not have an acute accent on the 'o'. What is going on
here?]

It appears there are sound-changes which operate in both Quenya and
Sindarin which tend to turn long vowels into short ones when in the
last syllable of a word, and before consonant clusters.

This isn't exactly an example of that phenomenon, as of course the
'ean' ending is English, so 'Númenórean' isn't a real Elvish word. But
you can see the same thing with Númenórë, for example.

-M-

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Matthew Woodcraft

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[changing tack slightly: you correctly accent 'Númenóreans', but
'Númenor' does not have an acute accent on the 'o'. What is going on
here?]

It appears there are sound-changes which operate in both Quenya and
Sindarin which tend to turn long vowels into short ones when in the
last syllable of a word, and before consonant clusters.
This isn't exactly an example of that phenomenon, as of course the
'ean' ending is English, so 'Númenórean' isn't a real Elvish word. But
you can see the same thing with Númenórë, for example.

Thanks. So are these three words pronounced differently?

[apologies for my mangled attempt at spelling out my pronunciation]

1) Númenor

Nu-men-noor

2) Númenórë

Nu-men-naw-ree

3) Númenórean

Nu-men-naw-ree-an

OR

Nu-men-naw-RAY-en

If anyone can understand that!

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:xCyDc.4049$***@news-text.cableinet.net>
"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
Long and short vowels according to the accents.
Stressed syllables are stressed with "//" (italized).

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
1) Númenor
Nu-men-noor

/Noo/-men-nor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
2) Númenórë
Nu-men-naw-ree

Noo-/men/-nor-reh

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
3) Númenórean
Nu-men-naw-ree-an

Noo-men-/nor/-reh-an

(long 'nor' the vowel is the same as in English (British) 'for', but
the final 'r' should be trilled, and, it is my impression, more clearly
so than is usual in English 'for'.)

Tolkien may have written something about the difference between Númenor
and Númenórë, but I don't recall it. The Ardalambion has "Númenórë" as
the 'full form' - supposedly "Númenor" is then some kind of contraction
or a degenerate form.

"númen "west, the way of the sunset" (SA:andúnë, cf. NDÛ,
MEN; capitalized Númen under SA:men and in CO), "going
down, occudent" (Letters:361), also name of tengwa #17
(Appendix E).
[...]
Númen(n)órë "people of the west", confused with Númendor
"land of the west" (SA:dôr); hence Númenor as the name
of the great isle given to the Edain by the Valar (FS,
LR:56); full form Númenórë (LR:47, SD:247, NDÛ);
allative númenórenna "to Númenor" (LR:56)
[...]
Númendor "land of the west", confused with and replaced
by Númen(n)órë "people of the west" (SA:dôr)"

<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/quen-eng.rtf>
(Ware - link to rich text document)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

[I hope all the accents and other stuff shows up OK...]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Long and short vowels according to the accents.
Stressed syllables are stressed with "//" (italicized).

Thanks! I note with interest that the syllable that you stress moves
from 1st to second to third throughout the list below. Is it normal for
the stressed syllable, if such exists, to change so frequently?
{Actually, having now re-read the pronunciation guides, I think I
understand this.}

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
1) Númenor
Nu-men-noor

/Noo/-men-nor

That sounds better! I was thinking of a long 'o'.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
2) Númenórë
Nu-men-naw-ree

Noo-/men/-nor-reh

The stress on the second syllable sounds weird. I would accent the third
syllable if anything. I didn't look at the Ardalambion RTF you linked
to; does that explain the pronunciation or are you using the
pronunciation guides in LotR and Silm?

The Silm. guide doesn't mention 'ó', but does mention 'ú'.

The 'reh' you use is much better, and is what I was trying to say!

I note that your pronunciation of '-nor' in Númenor is the same as your
pronunciation of '-nór' in Númenórë. I tend to open my mouth a bit more
and accent the 'o' as shown (but that is French pronunciation - the only
language I know how to pronounce accents in, so that shows how awfully I
must mangle some of Tolkien's words!).

The closest I can get to the pronunciation of the 'ó' is in Appendix E
of LotR, footnote 3 to part 1 (Pronunciation of Words and Names):

"A fairly widespread pronunciation of long é and ó as 'ei' and 'ou',
more or less as in English 'say' and 'no' [...] Those therefore who
pronounce yéni ûnótime 'long years innumerable', as is natural in
English (sc. more or less as 'yainy oonoatimy') will err little more
than Bilbo, Meriadoc or Peregrin. Frodo is said to have shown 'great
skill with foreign sounds.'" (Appendix E, LotR)

[Doesn't Tolkien mean 'yainy oono-U-timy'?]

And on stress: "in the Eldarin languages [...] its place is determined
by the form of the word [...] In longer [than 2 syllables] words it
falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a
diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants. Where the
last syllable but one contains (as often) a short vowel followed by only
one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable third from the
end." (Appendix E, LotR)

From this I would agree with /Noo/-men-nor, but disagree with the stress
placement in Noo-/men/-nor-reh. In Númenor the last syllable but one
contains a short vowel, so the stress should be on 'Núm-'. However, for
Númenórë, the last syllable but one contains a long vowel (the 'ó'). So
I would put the stress on the '-nór-' bit:

i.e. Noo-men-/naw/-reh

[I would compare this to Elent-A-ri, where the stress is on the 'a'.]

I feel a bit happier about pronunciation having looked at those guides
in LotR and Silm! :-) I now also know that Elijah Wood wasn't mangling
ancalima, as I would say ancalima (no stress), while Wood was obviously
told to say anc-/A/-lima, which is exactly what it says in Appendix E...

I've also been pronouncing Eressëa wrong... :-(

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
3) Númenórean
Nu-men-naw-ree-an

From the quote from Appedix E above, the '-naw-' bit is meant to be the
"ó as 'ou', more or less as in English 'no'". Huh? That makes no sense
whatsosever! Aagh! Can anyone help out here?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Noo-men-/nor/-reh-an
(long 'nor' the vowel is the same as in English (British) 'for', but
the final 'r' should be trilled, and, it is my impression, more
clearly so than is usual in English 'for'.)

You seem to pronouce it as if there is an ë there: Númenórëan. Tolkien
does say that the final 'e' in such words should be pronounced, and that
the umlaut is not always used consistently, but the final 'e' should
always be pronounced even so. But see next sentence...

I think this is problematic, as it is actually a construction in
English. The '-ean' bit is not Elvish, and the pronunciation guides
mostly fall flat on their faces. I would guess that the ó is put in to
guide us, rather than being a remnant from the Númenórë form. In that
case, I would ignore all the stress guides as inapplicable, and it is
what I originally said: Nu-men-naw-ree-an. If anything, I'd put the
stress on the first syllable, for want of a better place.

I do like this one though: Noo-men-nor-/reh/-an.
But I can't justify it in any way whatsoever. :-(

<snip>

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[I hope all the accents and other stuff shows up OK...]

Me too ;-)
<snip>

Númenórë

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Noo-/men/-nor-reh

The stress on the second syllable sounds weird. I would accent the
third syllable if anything.

You're right - I overlooked that the long vowel could receive the stress
and doggedly kept on counting consonants ;-)

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The 'reh' you use is much better, and is what I was trying to say!

Ah, sorry - I thought you were thinking of the sound in 'beer' (English
pronunciation based on spelling is a mystery in which there are some
natural laws and a goodly bit of black magic involved - or so it
sometimes seems to this foreigner <g>)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I note that your pronunciation of '-nor' in Númenor is the same as
your pronunciation of '-nór' in Númenórë.

Again an error on my side. I was thinking of Sindarin at that point.

While I don't feel capable of judging the correctness, I think that Helge
Fauskanger makes an excellent job at explaining the pronunciation in his
Quenya course. In this case he says:

" Long ó may be pronounced more or less as in English sore,
but preferably a little tenser and "closer" (midway between
the vowel-sounds of English sore and English "oo" as in soon):
mól "slave", tó "wool", óma "voice". Short o may be pronounced
as in English for (when accented), or as in box. The quality
of the latter vowel may be just a little too open and A-like
according to Tolkien's descriptions. Yet this is the
pronunciation he himself used in most cases in the recording
of him reading Namárië; it should perhaps be attributed to his
English accent. Some words with o: rondo "cave", olos "dream",
tolto "eight". Of course, Quenya o is never pronounced "ow" as
in English so, also; a word like tolto must NOT come out as
"tol-tow". Neither must o ever be reduced to a schwa or
dropped altogether; be especially mindful of the ending -on,
often found in masculine names (and also in plural genitives
like Silmarillion; see later lessons). "English-style"
pronunciation of a name like Sauron would result in what a
baffled Elf might try to represent in writing as Sór'n (or at
best Sóren). The final -on should sound rather like the first
syllable of English online, with the vowel fully intact even
though it is unaccented in Sauron. In the Jackson movie, the
actors usually deliver a good pronunciation of this name;
especially listen to how "Gandalf" and "Saruman" pronounce it.
Good examples of short Elvish o also occur in the name Mordor
as pronounced by the same two actors."
<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-a.rtf>

Note that his assertion "Quenya o is never pronounced "ow"" is still
consistent with Tolkien's remarks, which were about the long vowel, "ó".

Unfortunately I know of no way to distinguish in writing between the
pronunciation of the o in 'sore' and 'for' (or 'online').

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
3) Númenórean
Nu-men-naw-ree-an

From the quote from Appedix E above, the '-naw-' bit is meant to be
the "ó as 'ou', more or less as in English 'no'". Huh? That makes no
sense whatsosever! Aagh! Can anyone help out here?

"But such pronunciations were regarded as incorrect or rustic." as it
says about the 'ou' pronunciation of the long 'ó'.

All we have to go on in the appendix is that the short 'o' was
"approximately similar to [...] /o/ [...] in English [...] /for/ [...]"
and that the long vowel were, in Quenya, "tenser and 'closer' than the
short vowel."

Not very helpful, I'm afraid.

[Númenórean]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Noo-men-/nor/-reh-an

[...]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
You seem to pronouce it as if there is an ë there: Númenórëan.

[...]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I think this is problematic, as it is actually a construction in
English. The '-ean' bit is not Elvish,

[...]

I think it is only the -an part that is the English suffix - the use of
the long 'ó' implies to me that it is derived from the full form,
'Númenórë'.

Are there any rules to how such words are constructed in English? Had it
been derived from the short form, 'Númenor' I would have expected
'Númenorian' as in "Gondorians" (e.g. UT 3,II(iii) 'Cirion and Eorl' -
shortly after the Oath of Cirion), both, in that case, being appended to
an Elvish word ending in -or.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I would guess that the ó is put in to guide us, rather than being a
remnant from the Númenórë form.

Well, as noted above I don't agree with that. The lack of the diaresis
over the 'e' is not conclusive. The 'e' is no longer final, but it not
part of an Elvish dis-syllabic 'ëa' either, but constitutes, IMO, the
last syllable of the Quenya part of the word.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
In that case, I would ignore all the stress guides as inapplicable, and
it is what I originally said: Nu-men-naw-ree-an. If anything, I'd put
the stress on the first syllable, for want of a better place.

I'd certainly agree with that if it had said 'Númenorian' instead of
'Númenórean', but as it stands I think that it is the Númenórë form that
is meant.

--
Troels Forchhammer

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it
turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
- Anne Lamott

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
While I don't feel capable of judging the correctness, I think that
Helge Fauskanger makes an excellent job at explaining the

Thanks for this. Excuse my sarcasm in parts. It comes from my ignorance.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
" Long ó may be pronounced more or less as in English sore,
but preferably a little tenser and "closer" (midway between

Hmm. I get lost at this point. I wouldn't have a clue how to get
something midway between those two sounds.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
mól "slave"

Mall?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
tó "wool"

Tul?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
óma "voice".

Oi-ma?

[Sounds like 'I'm a' in some strange accent...?]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Short o may be pronounced
as in English for (when accented), or as in box. The quality
of the latter vowel may be just a little too open and A-like
according to Tolkien's descriptions. Yet this is the
pronunciation he himself used in most cases in the recording
of him reading Namárië; it should perhaps be attributed to his
English accent.

Huh? "Attributed to his English accent"? I give up!

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Some words with o: rondo "cave"

Ran-day?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
olos "dream"

Ee-lease?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
tolto "eight".

Tail-tay?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Of course, Quenya o is never pronounced "ow" as
in English so, also; a word like tolto must NOT come out as
"tol-tow". Neither must o ever be reduced to a schwa or
dropped altogether; be especially mindful of the ending -on,
often found in masculine names (and also in plural genitives
like Silmarillion; see later lessons).

What a teaser. I can't wait...

Post by Troels Forchhammer
"English-style"
pronunciation of a name like Sauron would result in what a
baffled Elf might try to represent in writing as Sór'n (or at
best Sóren). The final -on should sound rather like the first
syllable of English online, with the vowel fully intact even
though it is unaccented in Sauron. In the Jackson movie, the
actors usually deliver a good pronunciation of this name;
especially listen to how "Gandalf" and "Saruman" pronounce it.

Has Helge Fauskanger thought of doing his own .wav files?

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Good examples of short Elvish o also occur in the name Mordor
as pronounced by the same two actors."
<http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/less-a.rtf>
Note that his assertion "Quenya o is never pronounced "ow"" is still
consistent with Tolkien's remarks, which were about the long vowel, "ó".
Unfortunately I know of no way to distinguish in writing between the
pronunciation of the o in 'sore' and 'for' (or 'online').

I don't see any difference between 'sore' and 'for'. 'Online' seems to
be slightly different, but I can't get quite my tongue (or mouth) round
the difference!

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
"But such pronunciations were regarded as incorrect or rustic." as it
says about the 'ou' pronunciation of the long 'ó'.

I'll just have to be rustic then! :-)

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Noo-men-/nor/-reh-an

[...]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
You seem to pronouce it as if there is an ë there: Númenórëan.

[...]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I think this is problematic, as it is actually a construction in
English. The '-ean' bit is not Elvish,

[...]
I think it is only the -an part that is the English suffix - the use
of the long 'ó' implies to me that it is derived from the full form,
'Númenórë'.

I now agree with you.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Are there any rules to how such words are constructed in English? Had
it been derived from the short form, 'Númenor' I would have expected
'Númenorian' as in "Gondorians" (e.g. UT 3,II(iii) 'Cirion and Eorl' -
shortly after the Oath of Cirion), both, in that case, being appended
to an Elvish word ending in -or.

Argentine, Argentina, Argentinian, Argentinean, might be a good example.
I think that in general the '-ian' ending is used unless the word ends
in a vowel, when another construction, such as '-ean' could be used. But
that is just a guess.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I would guess that the ó is put in to guide us, rather than being a
remnant from the Númenórë form.

Well, as noted above I don't agree with that. The lack of the diaresis
over the 'e' is not conclusive. The 'e' is no longer final, but it not
part of an Elvish dis-syllabic 'ëa' either, but constitutes, IMO, the
last syllable of the Quenya part of the word.

Ah yes, I had not realised that 'ëa' would cause confusion.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
In that case, I would ignore all the stress guides as inapplicable,
and it is what I originally said: Nu-men-naw-ree-an. If anything,
I'd put the stress on the first syllable, for want of a better place.

I'd certainly agree with that if it had said 'Númenorian' instead of
'Númenórean', but as it stands I think that it is the Númenórë form
that is meant.

Good! As that is what I originally thought! :-)

Christopher

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
mól "slave"

Mall?

Um. I'm hoping he didn't mean mól _translates_ as "slave". I was trying
to pronounce mól using the 'a' vowel sound in slave! It was late. I was
tired!

<snip rest of other stuff>

Christopher

[Tar-Elenion]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
mól "slave"

Mall?

Um. I'm hoping he didn't mean mól _translates_ as "slave". I was trying
to pronounce mól using the 'a' vowel sound in slave! It was late. I was
tired!

Yes 'mól' means 'slave'.

[Matthew Woodcraft]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Long and short vowels according to the accents.
Stressed syllables are stressed with "//" (italized).

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
2) Númenórë

Noo-/men/-nor-reh

Stress on 'nór', because of the long vowel.

-M-

[s***@nomail.com]

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
: Matthew Woodcraft <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
:> Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
:>> [changing tack slightly: you correctly accent 'Númenóreans', but
:>> 'Númenor' does not have an acute accent on the 'o'. What is going on
:>> here?]
:>
:> It appears there are sound-changes which operate in both Quenya and
:> Sindarin which tend to turn long vowels into short ones when in the
:> last syllable of a word, and before consonant clusters.
:>
:> This isn't exactly an example of that phenomenon, as of course the
:> 'ean' ending is English, so 'Númenórean' isn't a real Elvish word. But
:> you can see the same thing with Númenórë, for example.

: Thanks. So are these three words pronounced differently?

: [apologies for my mangled attempt at spelling out my pronunciation]

: 1) Númenor

: Nu-men-noor

I do not know if this helps or not, but C.S. Lewis spelled it
"Numinore", presumably only having heard Tolkien say the name and
never seeing it written.

Stephen

[Flame of the West]

Post by s***@nomail.com
I do not know if this helps or not, but C.S. Lewis spelled it
"Numinore", presumably only having heard Tolkien say the name and
never seeing it written.

Actually CSL spelt it "Numinor" I believe. Tolkien confirmed in
Letter 169 that CSL only heard the name and never saw it writtten.


-- FotW

Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.

[Belba Grubb from Stock]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:19:22 +0000 (UTC), Troels Forchhammer
<***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
[3] Again the ambiguity of elven magic: "Are these magic cloaks?"
Pippin asks. "I do not know what you mean by that," is the reply.
"They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean.

[...]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight
of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the
trees."
Now, are these cloaks magic?

To answer that I think we need to look at how Tolkien perceived
Elvish magic. I have collected a couple of relevant quotations from
Letters and /On Fairy Stories/ below.
[Letters #131, 1951?]
" I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the
Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the
Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the
devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the
Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the
latter (since all human stories have suffered the same
confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to
demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered
from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more
quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed
correspondence). And its object is Art not Power,
sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of
Creation."
[...]
"But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their
nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid
of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an
ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as
applied to the gods)."
[Letters #155, 1954]
" I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and
especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and others
show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that
the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a
v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you
so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice,
temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is
found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a
pseudo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve
myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real
or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for
the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a
latent distinction such as once was called the distinction
between /magia/ and /goeteia/.[1] Galadriel speaks of the
'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but /magia/ could be,
was, held good (per se), and /goeteia/ bad. Neither is, in
this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or
purpose or use.
[...]
Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story
is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is
in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as
such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical',
or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic'
processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who
have very little notions of philosophy and science; while
A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the
'children of Luthien'.[2]"
[1] "Greek Goeteia* (Goech*, sorcerer); the English form
Goety is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic
performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits;
necromancy.'"
* written with Greek letters in original
[2] "Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written: 'But
the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?'"
/On Fairy Stories/, 'Fantasy'
"You are deluded - whether that is the intention of the elves
(always or at any time) is another question. They at any
rate are not themselves deluded. This is for them a form of
Art, and distinct from Wizardry or Magic, properly so
called. They do not live in it, though they can, perhaps,
afford to spend more time at it than human artists can. The
Primary World, Reality, of elves and men is the same, if
differently valued and perceived.
We need a word for this elvish craft, but all the words
that have been applied to it have been blurred and confused
with other things. Magic is ready to hand, and I have used
it above (p. 39), but I should not have done so: Magic
should be reserved for the operations of the Magician. Art
is the human process that produces by the way (it is not
its only or ultimate object) Secondary Belief. Art of the
same sort, if more skilled and effortless, the elves can
also use, or so the reports seem to show; but the more
potent and specially elvish craft I will, for lack of a
less debatable word, call Enchantment. Enchantment produces
a Secondary World into which both designer and spectator
can enter, to the satisfaction of their senses while they
are inside; but in its purity it is artistic in desire and
purpose. Magic produces, or pretends to produce, an
alteration in the Primary World. It does not matter by whom
it is said to be practised, fay or mortal, it remains
distinct from the other two; it is not an art but a
technique; its desire is power in this world, domination of
things and wills."
OK, that was rather extensive, but, I hope, of interest ;-)
I don't doubt that the cloaks were made with the use of this Elvish
Art - they were enchanted, so to speak. Saying that they were magical
would, in the sense of the Hobbits, be true, because they, as
Galadriel noted earlier, "to use the same word of the deceits of the
Enemy" as they do for the Elvish Art (or craft). However, in our
debate we should, IMO, allow ourselves to distinguish (though
Tolkien's discussion of /magia/ and /goeteia/ in letter #155 suggests
that the difference is not in the 'magic' per se, but rather in the
motives and intentions of the use of it).

A good exposition, Troels. What I still can't quite grasp is how to
connect all this to the answer JRRT gives to Pippin's question through
the leader of the Elves:

They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was
made in this land. They are elvish robes certainly, if
that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and
stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things
under the twilight of Lorien that we love; for we put the
thought of all that we love into all that we make.

This notion of putting the thought of what you love into the works of
your hands is echoed somewhere in "The Lord of the Rings," I can't
find the reference, by an Elf who says something to the effect that
while the Elves will grieve deeply for their works, which they love,
they will never be fooled by Sauron again.

Certainly this is "product and vision in unflawed correspondence."
Maybe, too, there is an echo there of the external effect of a
fairy-story:

Fantasy is made out of the Primary World, but a good craftsman
loves his material, and has a knowledge and feeling for clay,
stone and wood which only the art of making can give. By the
forging of Gram cold iron was revealed; by the making of
Pegasus horses were ennobled; in the Trees of the Sun and Moon
root and stock, flower and fruit are manifested in glory.

Barb

[Igenlode Wordsmith]

(a very belated response...)

A few things I don't think were mentioned:

"They all resolved to go forward" more or less answers the nature of
Galadriel's 'testing', does it not? It would suggest that she was testing,
or thought she was testing, their resolve to continue into hardship -
their commitment to the Fellowship in the face of an easier and more
inviting prospect.


Celeborn refers here to "the long home of those that fall in battle".
This sounds to me like a Valhalla-reference or similar. However, it
doesn't seem to fit very well with Tolkien's mythology on the afterlife
- even assuming that Celeborn, unaccustomed to conversing with mortals,
has the 'sad halls of Mandos' in mind as a destination for his own
people...

We also learn that the Anduin cannot be crossed downstream of
Lothlorien "by travellers *with* baggage" [my emphasis]. To my ear at
least, this implies that those not so burdened can indeed make the
crossing - by swimming? On horseback? By the patent Galadhrim rope
bridges? :-)

What is Egladil? ("There in the last end of Egladil upon the green
grass...")

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
We also learn that the Anduin cannot be crossed downstream of
Lothlorien "by travellers *with* baggage" [my emphasis]. To my ear at
least, this implies that those not so burdened can indeed make the
crossing - by swimming? On horseback? By the patent Galadhrim rope
bridges? :-)

I suspect swimming. Anduin is a mighty river and too wide to cross by
rope-bridge. It can probably only be crossed by swimming if unburdened
by baggage that does not float. Maybe a small amount of buoyant baggage
could be pulled across by a swimmer, but not much more than that.
Horseback would be good as well, though the horse would have to swim and
you would probably hold onto the reins and swim in the downstream side
of the horse.

Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
What is Egladil? ("There in the last end of Egladil upon the green
grass...")

Haldir says in 'Lothlorien' that: "The others may walk free for a while,
until we come nearer to our dwellings, down in Egladil, in the Angle
between the waters." From that, I guess Egladil is the bit of the Naith
(or Gore) that extends for some unknown distance from the Angle (where
Celebrant and Anduin meet) inland. Beyond Egladil would be the rest of
the Naith, and across Celebrant the rest of Lorien.

As for a translation, some sources say "angle", but I'm not so sure.

Christopher

[Jim Deutch]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:12:09 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
We also learn that the Anduin cannot be crossed downstream of
Lothlorien "by travellers *with* baggage" [my emphasis]. To my ear at
least, this implies that those not so burdened can indeed make the
crossing - by swimming? On horseback? By the patent Galadhrim rope
bridges? :-)

I suspect swimming. Anduin is a mighty river and too wide to cross by
rope-bridge. It can probably only be crossed by swimming if unburdened
by baggage that does not float.

Isildur tried it, but I guess that Orc archers lining the bank would
make it a challenge to the no-longer-invisible...

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Jim Deutch
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:12:09 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

<snip>

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I suspect swimming. Anduin is a mighty river and too wide to cross by
rope-bridge. It can probably only be crossed by swimming if
unburdened by baggage that does not float.

Isildur tried it, but I guess that Orc archers lining the bank would
make it a challenge to the no-longer-invisible...

That's true. Though I thought Isildur tried to swim the Gladden?

[Jim Deutch]

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:59:47 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Jim Deutch
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:12:09 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

<snip>

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I suspect swimming. Anduin is a mighty river and too wide to cross by
rope-bridge. It can probably only be crossed by swimming if
unburdened by baggage that does not float.

Isildur tried it, but I guess that Orc archers lining the bank would
make it a challenge to the no-longer-invisible...

That's true. Though I thought Isildur tried to swim the Gladden?

He was escaping from the "disaster of the Gladden *Fields*". Or
trying to, anyway. Many years later, Deagol was fishing on the Anduin
river...

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
<snip>

Post by Jim Deutch

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
I suspect swimming. Anduin is a mighty river and too wide to cross
by rope-bridge. It can probably only be crossed by swimming if
unburdened by baggage that does not float.

Isildur tried it, but I guess that Orc archers lining the bank would
make it a challenge to the no-longer-invisible...

That's true. Though I thought Isildur tried to swim the Gladden?

He was escaping from the "disaster of the Gladden *Fields*". Or
trying to, anyway. Many years later, Deagol was fishing on the Anduin
river...

I've just skimmed through the bit in Unfinished Tales about the disaster
of the Gladden Fields. You are quite right, I hadn't realised that they
were on the east bank of Anduin. And what a great story! I'm re-reading
that chapter tonight.

One bit I did find about Isildur trying to swim Anduin:

"He [Isildur] was a man of strength and endurance that few even of the
Dunedain of that age could equal, but he had little hope to gain the
other shore."

He had to turn north against the current, and even so was swept south
towards the Gladden Fields. He nearly made the other side.. Read about
it yourself if you haven't yet!

Christopher