Heathrow Express slashes fares (so it says!)

[tim...]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html

[Recliner]

Post by tim...
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

[Rink]

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds

"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)

How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

[Recliner]

Post by Rink

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds
"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)
How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

I don't suppose the HEx touts in Arrivals do much explaining: they just
flog the most expensive tickets they can. The cheaper fares are to attract
locals who would otherwise use Crossrail.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Rink

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds
"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)
How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

Just charge them the most expensive fare, as they won't know otherwise
(if they've researched it in advance, they'd know). It's a privately
owned airport service, competing with taxis not with other forms of
scheduled public transport.

[Recliner]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Rink

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds
"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)
How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

Just charge them the most expensive fare, as they won't know otherwise
(if they've researched it in advance, they'd know). It's a privately
owned airport service, competing with taxis not with other forms of
scheduled public transport.

That's no longer the case when Crossrail is fully open. Any local, and most
visitors, will be better off using Crossrail: quicker, fewer changes, hgher
frequency, cheaper. Only people travelling from Paddington itself to T5
might have a slightly faster journey using HEx; everyone else will have a
more convenient journey on Crossrail.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Rink

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-expre
ss-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds
"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)
How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

Just charge them the most expensive fare, as they won't know otherwise
(if they've researched it in advance, they'd know). It's a privately
owned airport service, competing with taxis not with other forms of
scheduled public transport.

That's no longer the case when Crossrail is fully open. Any local, and most
visitors, will be better off using Crossrail: quicker, fewer changes, hgher
frequency, cheaper. Only people travelling from Paddington itself to T5
might have a slightly faster journey using HEx; everyone else will have a
more convenient journey on Crossrail.

The market is more segmented than you suggest. Visitors will be
conditioned to seek out the "Airport Express" service, which they know
will shield them from the complexities of the local commuter services.

(Even though sometimes, like Stansted Express, the operational
difference is wafer thin)

Clearly, many of the people using HEx today aren't heading for hotels or
business meetings (or even onward rail transport) in the Paddington
area, so they'll continue to use Paddington as the railhead, and let's
face it the facilities for travellers there are far better than
Tottenham Court Crossrail.

Similarly, on the way back getting to Paddington is "safety" as it's in
effect an airport annex. If using Crossrail, people won't feel
completely comfortable until they've got to the Terminal.

Bearing in mind, always, that their audience is people who would
otherwise have got a taxi from the airport, not those adventurous enough
to take the tube or Heathrow Connect.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Rink

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-expre
ss-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds
"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)
How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

Just charge them the most expensive fare, as they won't know otherwise
(if they've researched it in advance, they'd know). It's a privately
owned airport service, competing with taxis not with other forms of
scheduled public transport.

That's no longer the case when Crossrail is fully open. Any local, and most
visitors, will be better off using Crossrail: quicker, fewer changes, hgher
frequency, cheaper. Only people travelling from Paddington itself to T5
might have a slightly faster journey using HEx; everyone else will have a
more convenient journey on Crossrail.

The market is more segmented than you suggest. Visitors will be
conditioned to seek out the "Airport Express" service, which they know
will shield them from the complexities of the local commuter services.
(Even though sometimes, like Stansted Express, the operational
difference is wafer thin)
Clearly, many of the people using HEx today aren't heading for hotels or
business meetings (or even onward rail transport) in the Paddington
area, so they'll continue to use Paddington as the railhead, and let's
face it the facilities for travellers there are far better than
Tottenham Court Crossrail.
Similarly, on the way back getting to Paddington is "safety" as it's in
effect an airport annex. If using Crossrail, people won't feel
completely comfortable until they've got to the Terminal.
Bearing in mind, always, that their audience is people who would
otherwise have got a taxi from the airport, not those adventurous enough
to take the tube or Heathrow Connect.

The fact that they're suddenly providing all these new discounted options
proves that HEx lacks your deep insights into airport express services.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Rink

Post by Recliner

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-expre
ss-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html>

Interesting, I wondered how HEx would respond. But it sounds like the
cheapest tickets will only be available a long way in advance.

I do not understand anything of the prices for this train.
25 pounds
22 pounds
12,50 pounds
5,50 pounds
16,50 pounds
7,50 pounds
6 pounds
5,10 pounds
3,10 pounds
"cash fare"?
"peak contactless fare"?
"off-peak fare"? (I think I understand this, but do not know the
off-peak times)
How do you explains this to foreigners arriving at Heathrow?

Just charge them the most expensive fare, as they won't know otherwise
(if they've researched it in advance, they'd know). It's a privately
owned airport service, competing with taxis not with other forms of
scheduled public transport.

That's no longer the case when Crossrail is fully open. Any local, and most
visitors, will be better off using Crossrail: quicker, fewer changes, hgher
frequency, cheaper. Only people travelling from Paddington itself to T5
might have a slightly faster journey using HEx; everyone else will have a
more convenient journey on Crossrail.

The market is more segmented than you suggest. Visitors will be
conditioned to seek out the "Airport Express" service, which they know
will shield them from the complexities of the local commuter services.
(Even though sometimes, like Stansted Express, the operational
difference is wafer thin)
Clearly, many of the people using HEx today aren't heading for hotels or
business meetings (or even onward rail transport) in the Paddington
area, so they'll continue to use Paddington as the railhead, and let's
face it the facilities for travellers there are far better than
Tottenham Court Crossrail.
Similarly, on the way back getting to Paddington is "safety" as it's in
effect an airport annex. If using Crossrail, people won't feel
completely comfortable until they've got to the Terminal.
Bearing in mind, always, that their audience is people who would
otherwise have got a taxi from the airport, not those adventurous enough
to take the tube or Heathrow Connect.

The fact that they're suddenly providing all these new discounted options
proves that HEx lacks your deep insights into airport express services.

On the contrary, news of these price cuts are unlikely to make their way
through to their main target market, who will continue to pay the full
price. Meanwhile, in the UK some gullible people might be persuaded that
HEx isn't as expensive (as a commuter service, which isn't its target
market) after all.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
The fact that they're suddenly providing all these new discounted options
proves that HEx lacks your deep insights into airport express services.

On the contrary, news of these price cuts are unlikely to make their way
through to their main target market, ...

Despite what that article said, HeX has been offering restricted
discount tickets for years. In 2015 I paid £16.10 for a ticket and
last year £14.30. I believe there were some exotic under £10 tix last
year if you knew 90 days ahead that you'd be travelling on a Sunday.

Seems to me that a sensible person books his train tix when he books
his flights, which for vacations and conferences can often be months
ahead. That's what I do and is how I got those (sort of) low fares.

It also seems to me that when Crossrail is running through trains, the
HeX time advantage will be a lost for many places Crossrail goes
beyond Paddington. It's not just the fares.

Perhaps we could have volunteer anti-touts saying "don't buy those silly
express tickets, just tap your credit card and take the cheap train."

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
The fact that they're suddenly providing all these new discounted options
proves that HEx lacks your deep insights into airport express services.

On the contrary, news of these price cuts are unlikely to make their way
through to their main target market, ...

Despite what that article said, HeX has been offering restricted
discount tickets for years. In 2015 I paid £16.10 for a ticket and
last year £14.30. I believe there were some exotic under £10 tix last
year if you knew 90 days ahead that you'd be travelling on a Sunday.
Seems to me that a sensible person books his train tix when he books
his flights, which for vacations and conferences can often be months
ahead. That's what I do and is how I got those (sort of) low fares.

I don't think you are a very typical traveller. Most are very
unadventurous when it comes to foreign countries, and hence the race for
taxis (and HEx's mission to replace taxis).

I wouldn't expect to be able to understand how to pick up pre-booked
train tickets at a random overseas airport, and there's a limit to how
much we can say "trust us, it's easy in the UK".

As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

That was Brisbane, which has the advantage of speaking (approx) English,
and I was going somewhere an hour away which happened to be on the same
line, rather than just the city centre.

Of course, having worked things out, I have a few times taken a train
*back* to the airport, or used one on a second or subsequent visit. I
was a bit put off by the difficulty of collecting a pre-bought TGV
ticket in Paris, though.

Post by John Levine
It also seems to me that when Crossrail is running through trains, the
HeX time advantage will be a lost for many places Crossrail goes
beyond Paddington. It's not just the fares.

How many of the Crossrail stations will have taxi ranks? I presume
they'll at least all have lifts to avoid having to haul baggage up
escalators.

Post by John Levine
Perhaps we could have volunteer anti-touts saying "don't buy those silly
express tickets, just tap your credit card and take the cheap train."

Or if it's a family holiday "find 4 credit cards between you, to tap".

And how widespread is contactless outside the UK? The USA is catching up
rapidly, but is probably still in single figure percentages.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry
I don't think you are a very typical traveller. Most are very
unadventurous when it comes to foreign countries, and hence the race for
taxis (and HEx's mission to replace taxis).

Depends who the travellers are. I'm currently at an ICANN meeting (I know
you know who they are) whose travel department's phobia of public transport
that is not an airplane is just comic. But I don't think it's universal.

Post by Roland Perry
As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Huh, I do it all the time. I can think of Frankfurt, Paris CDG,
Munich, Barcelona, Narita, Haneda, Seoul (now permanently bustituted),
Hong Kong, and Singapore. And Gatwick and Prestwick, since I live in
the US.

Post by Roland Perry
I was a bit put off by the difficulty of collecting a pre-bought TGV
ticket in Paris, though.

Gee, it's easy to put your SNCF ticket on your smartphone. (Yes, I
know.)

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
It also seems to me that when Crossrail is running through trains, the
HeX time advantage will be a lost for many places Crossrail goes
beyond Paddington. It's not just the fares.

How many of the Crossrail stations will have taxi ranks?

I dunno. I was thinking that a lot of them will be within walking
distance of where one wants to go.

Post by Roland Perry
And how widespread is contactless outside the UK? The USA is catching up
rapidly, but is probably still in single figure percentages.

In the US and Canada I see lots of contactless cards, now that it's a
standard feature of new point-of-sale terminals.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
I don't think you are a very typical traveller. Most are very
unadventurous when it comes to foreign countries, and hence the race for
taxis (and HEx's mission to replace taxis).

Depends who the travellers are. I'm currently at an ICANN meeting (I know
you know who they are)

I'm vaguely following the proceedings from Montreal on social media.

Post by John Levine
whose travel department's phobia of public transport

I've been to about a dozen, even by train for Paris, Brussels and London
(although the latter is hardly surprising as there are no flights from
Cambridge to London). But never had any involvement from their travel
department.

Because it was my third or fourth trip to the City, I used public
transport to get to get from the airport to their meeting in Prague. I
know the RIR policy would be "you must be mad - we'll order you a limo".

Post by John Levine
that is not an airplane is just comic. But I don't think it's universal.

The RIRs are almost as bad!

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Huh, I do it all the time.

Every *first* time you visit these places?

Post by John Levine
I can think of Frankfurt, Paris CDG, Munich, Barcelona, Narita, Haneda,
Seoul (now permanently bustituted), Hong Kong, and Singapore. And
Gatwick and Prestwick, since I live in the US.

You are much more travelled than average. And quite likely visit them
more than once, so you have a chance to come to grips with the local
peculiarities. For example, I've been to Seoul twice now, and the second
time I took an express coach back to the airport. The railway line
stopped short.

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
I was a bit put off by the difficulty of collecting a pre-bought TGV
ticket in Paris, though.

Gee, it's easy to put your SNCF ticket on your smartphone. (Yes, I
know.)

My experience with using foreign transport apps (and I *have* tried) is
that between them either not apparently working at all, and the steep
learning curve, if you are visiting for the first time it's easier to
just buy a paper ticket when you get there.

The HEx app scores an impressive 1.8 stars (almost all the scores are 1
- "terrible").

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
It also seems to me that when Crossrail is running through trains, the
HeX time advantage will be a lost for many places Crossrail goes
beyond Paddington. It's not just the fares.

How many of the Crossrail stations will have taxi ranks?

I dunno. I was thinking that a lot of them will be within walking
distance of where one wants to go.

The kind of airline passenger who would normally have got a taxi
door-to-door previously, but decides to give HEx a try instead, isn't
likely to be wanting to be wandering round London on foot in all
weathers with with their baggage trying to find heir hotel.

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
And how widespread is contactless outside the UK? The USA is catching up
rapidly, but is probably still in single figure percentages.

In the US and Canada I see lots of contactless cards, now that it's a
standard feature of new point-of-sale terminals.

There's a lot more issued so far in Canada than USA, apparently.

[Clive D.W. Feather]

Post by Roland Perry
As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Working backwards through my travel log.

Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.

Seoul: first trip I used the express bus that stopped outside the
company hotel rather than two or three (long) metro trips and then a 2
km taxi in a country where I can't even read the signs. Second trip,
just used the metro to the (different) hotel; both cheaper and faster
than the express bus.

Seattle: wasn't going anywhere on the tram, so rented a car (perhaps I
should have tried Uber, but I never have so far). In the past I've used
the tram. I forget what I did before there were trams.

Minneapolis St.Paul: wasn't staying near the metro, such as it is, and
wasn't staying close enough to the meeting place to walk, so rented a
car.

Perth: got picked up by relatives this time. Last time, rented a car
because I was going several hundred km. When I returned the car I took
bus+metro to my hotel. (I eventually left Perth by train.)

Sydney: train. Opal card. Trivial.

Cairns: no metro, rented a car. But did catch the train once.

Copenhagen: metro or train every time (including to Aalborg, Lund, and
Goteborg).

Atlanta: MARTA works fine. What's the problem?

Singapore: metro, of course.

Madrid: metro.

AYQ: got the dedicated bus service.

Melbourne: bus to central area, then tram to hotel. Trams and local
trains thereafter (left Melbourne on a coach trip).

Hobart: rented a car because going to catch the Ida Bay railway then
drive to Launceston.

Cagliari: rented a car because was going all over the place. But did
ride the entire tram network while I was there.

Aalborg: no trams to hotel, so used a taxi.

San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I
have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one).

Billund: no public transport and needed to get to Aalborg.

Hong Kong: metro and tram. Octopus card. Simples.

Amsterdam: train and tram.

Montreal: from memory, express bus to the city (Dorval train wasn't
workable) but metro in the city.

Calgary: rented a car because had to drive half way to Banff.

ACE: rented a car because going all over the place.

DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public
transport I can find.

Stockholm: train and metro.

That's 7 years; I think I'll stop there.

[John Levine]

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by Roland Perry
As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Working backwards through my travel log.

This is all consistent with my experience.

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I
have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one).

Never took BART into the city? Works great.

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Montreal: from memory, express bus to the city (Dorval train wasn't
workable) but metro in the city.

I was in Montreal yesterday. The express 747 bus runs between the
airport and downtown. There is a shuttle from the Dorval station to
the airport but only for Via Rail intercity passengers, not Exo local
passengers, snd you need to call the shuttle from your mobile to tell
it to pick you up at the airport. For arcane reasons of language
politics, the metro goes nowhere near the airport.

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public
transport I can find.

There's now a tram that runs into Dallas, fine if you're going where
it goes. Otherwise you need a car.

[Clive D.W. Feather]

In article <qq55te$u56$***@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <***@taugh.com>
writes

Post by John Levine

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I
have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one).

Never took BART into the city? Works great.

I've used BART many times in the past. But every time I've flown to SFO
since BART reached the airport, I've been going to somewhere like San
Jose or Santa Cruz.

Post by John Levine

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public
transport I can find.

There's now a tram that runs into Dallas, fine if you're going where
it goes. Otherwise you need a car.

D != FW

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by Roland Perry
As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Working backwards through my travel log.
Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.

You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just
missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid
the extra.

[Clive D.W. Feather]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.

You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just
missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid
the extra.

Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.

You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just
missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid
the extra.

Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options.

Machines right next to the counter where you get the CAT tickets.

[Clive D.W. Feather]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by Graeme Wall
You can buy a ticket for the S-Bahn at the terminal too. As we'd just
missed a CAT train we actually got to Mitte earlier than if we'd paid
the extra.

Quite possibly. But I couldn't be bothered to search out options.

Machines right next to the counter where you get the CAT tickets.

If I ever go again, I'll try to remember that.

On the other hand, I had a nice train ride in Business Class (better
than 1st class) from Vienna to Zurich on the way back. 25 minutes late
arriving because a Swiss train was late to our single line crossing
point in Liechtenstein.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by Roland Perry
As a result, and even as a more adventurous traveller (colleagues were
amazed I dared get a bus from Geneva to the airport, and didn't even
consider rail) I think I've only once got a train on first arrival at a
suitably equipped overseas airport.

Working backwards through my travel log.
Vienna: caught the CAT train then the U-bahn to the hotel. No problem.
Possibly CAT is overpriced but it went to the right place and I could
buy a ticket right in the terminal.
Seoul: first trip I used the express bus that stopped outside the
company hotel rather than two or three (long) metro trips and then a 2
km taxi in a country where I can't even read the signs. Second trip,
just used the metro to the (different) hotel; both cheaper and faster
than the express bus.
Seattle: wasn't going anywhere on the tram, so rented a car (perhaps I
should have tried Uber, but I never have so far). In the past I've used
the tram. I forget what I did before there were trams.
Minneapolis St.Paul: wasn't staying near the metro, such as it is, and
wasn't staying close enough to the meeting place to walk, so rented a
car.
Perth: got picked up by relatives this time. Last time, rented a car
because I was going several hundred km. When I returned the car I took
bus+metro to my hotel. (I eventually left Perth by train.)
Sydney: train. Opal card. Trivial.
Cairns: no metro, rented a car. But did catch the train once.
Copenhagen: metro or train every time (including to Aalborg, Lund, and
Goteborg).
Atlanta: MARTA works fine. What's the problem?
Singapore: metro, of course.
Madrid: metro.
AYQ: got the dedicated bus service.
Melbourne: bus to central area, then tram to hotel. Trams and local
trains thereafter (left Melbourne on a coach trip).
Hobart: rented a car because going to catch the Ida Bay railway then
drive to Launceston.
Cagliari: rented a car because was going all over the place. But did
ride the entire tram network while I was there.
Aalborg: no trams to hotel, so used a taxi.
San Francisco: always been going somewhere that needs a car, though I
have used the San Jose trams (and once acted as conductor on one).
Billund: no public transport and needed to get to Aalborg.
Hong Kong: metro and tram. Octopus card. Simples.
Amsterdam: train and tram.
Montreal: from memory, express bus to the city (Dorval train wasn't
workable) but metro in the city.
Calgary: rented a car because had to drive half way to Banff.
ACE: rented a car because going all over the place.
DFW: rented a car because it's nowhere near D or FW with no public
transport I can find.
Stockholm: train and metro.
That's 7 years; I think I'll stop there.

An interesting history from a seasoned and adventurous traveller. As
such you've ruled yourself out of the target market under discussion.

[Roland Perry]

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

[Roland Perry]

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

Remember that HEx and Crossrail will be using the same stations and even
the same platforms at Heathrow. That doesn't happen with local commuter
services.

Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train. People waiting for a HEx train at Heathrow Central might have to let
a Crossrail service go first, from the same platform. That's not like the
Tube or Gatwick Southern services, which aren't visible from the Express
platforms.

This, of course, will probably lead to confusion between the services: will
people always get on their intended train?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

Remember that HEx and Crossrail will be using the same stations and even
the same platforms at Heathrow. That doesn't happen with local commuter
services.
Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Post by Recliner
People waiting for a HEx train at Heathrow Central might have to let
a Crossrail service go first, from the same platform. That's not like the
Tube or Gatwick Southern services, which aren't visible from the Express
platforms.
This, of course, will probably lead to confusion between the services: will
people always get on their intended train?

Do many people today get on HEx services if they've only got a Connect
ticket? I don't know, but it's not something that hits the headlines.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

Remember that HEx and Crossrail will be using the same stations and even
the same platforms at Heathrow. That doesn't happen with local commuter
services.
Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
People waiting for a HEx train at Heathrow Central might have to let
a Crossrail service go first, from the same platform. That's not like the
Tube or Gatwick Southern services, which aren't visible from the Express
platforms.
This, of course, will probably lead to confusion between the services: will
people always get on their intended train?

Do many people today get on HEx services if they've only got a Connect
ticket? I don't know, but it's not something that hits the headlines.

I don't know either, but it's likely to happen much more with the more
frequent Crossrail services.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

You are over-estimating the willingness of the sort of person whose
normal policy is "no-one got fired getting a taxi end to end", to start
grappling with London's commuter rail services.

How would they even know (or care) what the cheaper fare was on
Crossrail?

Even assuming that a railhead at one of the Crossrail stations in
central London is a compellingly shorter taxi-ride to their ultimate
destination than Paddington.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

You are over-estimating the willingness of the sort of person whose
normal policy is "no-one got fired getting a taxi end to end", to start
grappling with London's commuter rail services.

Not at all: the keenest taxi users use taxis anyway, not HEx. For many
people, Paddington just isn't in the right place, even to get a taxi. And
you seem to under-estimate the effort in getting from the HEx Padd platform
to the taxi rank; many Crossrail stations will have more convenient taxi
ranks.

People, particularly with luggage, or if travelling as a couple or family,
will find a door-to-door taxi much more convenient than taking a train part
of the way, then getting a taxi. So HEx only gets a subset of possible taxi
users. And that subset will shrink when Crossrail gets going.

Post by Roland Perry
How would they even know (or care) what the cheaper fare was on
Crossrail?

Probably large signs advertising Crossrail's lower prices. They'll also see
the much more useful route map.

Post by Roland Perry
Even assuming that a railhead at one of the Crossrail stations in
central London is a compellingly shorter taxi-ride to their ultimate
destination than Paddington.

Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people
heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would
be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

You are over-estimating the willingness of the sort of person whose
normal policy is "no-one got fired getting a taxi end to end", to start
grappling with London's commuter rail services.

Not at all: the keenest taxi users use taxis anyway, not HEx.

The target market is those who *can* be persuaded to try the airport
express instead.

Post by Recliner
For many people, Paddington just isn't in the right place, even to get
a taxi.

HEx's ridership, exceeding their estimates, appears to prove this wrong.

Post by Recliner
And you seem to under-estimate the effort in getting from the HEx Padd
platform to the taxi rank;

It's pretty easy, actually. And a very similar experience to seeking a
taxi rank at an airport.

Post by Recliner
many Crossrail stations will have more convenient taxi ranks.

Nominate one, and we'll see what it's like when the station eventually
opens.

Post by Recliner
People, particularly with luggage, or if travelling as a couple or family,
will find a door-to-door taxi much more convenient than taking a train part
of the way, then getting a taxi. So HEx only gets a subset of possible taxi
users. And that subset will shrink when Crossrail gets going.

No-one has claimed they get the whole market, but it has successfully
got the market it projected.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
How would they even know (or care) what the cheaper fare was on
Crossrail?

Probably large signs advertising Crossrail's lower prices. They'll also see
the much more useful route map.

People navigating an unfamiliar airport like Heathrow will be suffering
from sign-blindness. There's simply too much going on. That why (whether
you approve of it or not) the HEx ticket sellers have an easy time.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Even assuming that a railhead at one of the Crossrail stations in
central London is a compellingly shorter taxi-ride to their ultimate
destination than Paddington.

Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people
heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would
be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

I agree that if you are going to Canary Wharf then Crossrail should be a
better choice, but you have to persuade people it's better than the
average big city commuter railway.

Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone trying to catch HEx from T4 will actually have to start their
journey on a Crossrail train and change at Central, and perhaps again at
Paddington, rather than just taking a through train. They'll be able to
realise their mistake while looking at the route map on the Crossrail
train.

By then they've bought their ticket. On their next trip to England they
may make a different choice.

Yup, HEx may only catch them the once, and probably only in one direction.
Not a good long-term business model.

You are over-estimating the willingness of the sort of person whose
normal policy is "no-one got fired getting a taxi end to end", to start
grappling with London's commuter rail services.

Not at all: the keenest taxi users use taxis anyway, not HEx.

The target market is those who *can* be persuaded to try the airport
express instead.

Post by Recliner
For many people, Paddington just isn't in the right place, even to get
a taxi.

HEx's ridership, exceeding their estimates, appears to prove this wrong.

Post by Recliner
And you seem to under-estimate the effort in getting from the HEx Padd
platform to the taxi rank;

It's pretty easy, actually. And a very similar experience to seeking a
taxi rank at an airport.

Post by Recliner
many Crossrail stations will have more convenient taxi ranks.

Nominate one, and we'll see what it's like when the station eventually
opens.

Post by Recliner
People, particularly with luggage, or if travelling as a couple or family,
will find a door-to-door taxi much more convenient than taking a train part
of the way, then getting a taxi. So HEx only gets a subset of possible taxi
users. And that subset will shrink when Crossrail gets going.

No-one has claimed they get the whole market, but it has successfully
got the market it projected.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
How would they even know (or care) what the cheaper fare was on
Crossrail?

Probably large signs advertising Crossrail's lower prices. They'll also see
the much more useful route map.

People navigating an unfamiliar airport like Heathrow will be suffering
from sign-blindness. There's simply too much going on. That why (whether
you approve of it or not) the HEx ticket sellers have an easy time.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Even assuming that a railhead at one of the Crossrail stations in
central London is a compellingly shorter taxi-ride to their ultimate
destination than Paddington.

Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people
heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would
be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

I agree that if you are going to Canary Wharf then Crossrail should be a
better choice, but you have to persuade people it's better than the
average big city commuter railway.
Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a
high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar
(and rather run-down) London suburb.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a
high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar
(and rather run-down) London suburb.

Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice,
leafy parts just near the station. It's obvious that you're condemning it
while knowing nothing about the station or the area.

And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington?
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a
high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar
(and rather run-down) London suburb.

Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice,
leafy parts just near the station.

Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to
tangle with the streets outside.

Post by Recliner
It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the
station or the area.

Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected
because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but
got much more of an inner-city experience.

Post by Recliner
And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington?

The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would
they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more
familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what
they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the
suburbs.

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a
high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar
(and rather run-down) London suburb.

Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice,
leafy parts just near the station.

Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to
tangle with the streets outside.

Post by Recliner
It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the
station or the area.

Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected
because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but
got much more of an inner-city experience.

Post by Recliner
And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington?

The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would
they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more
familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what
they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the
suburbs.

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

You seem to think that the HEx target market consists solely of rich,
ignorant, timorous foreigners, travelling to London for the first time, who
have done precisely zero research into how to get to the address in London
they're aiming for. You also think that very particular market will be
large enough to survive after Crossrail.

I don't think many agree with you. I certainly don't.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Ealing Broadway (in general not just the station) is rather inhospitable
as a railhead. I don't think I'd recommend it for a novice overseas
visitor.

Why? Lift up to the station, a few steps through the barrier, taxi rank
right outside. Far better than the long hike at Paddington from platfrm 6/7
to the taxi rank above and beyond the H&C line platform 16.

For someone who spends so much time in first class lounges, you have a
high expectation that others will want to "slum it" in an unfamiliar
(and rather run-down) London suburb.

Paddington is a much worse area than Ealing, which has some very nice,
leafy parts just near the station.

Padding station has many excellent facilities, and you don't need to
tangle with the streets outside.

Post by Recliner
It's obvious that you're condemning it while knowing nothing about the
station or the area.

Strangely, I spent a week on holiday in Ealing Broadway, selected
because of the rail service to London. I was hoping for leafy-suburb but
got much more of an inner-city experience.

Post by Recliner
And why do you assume that Ealing is more unfamiliar than Paddington?

The people I'm talking about are foreigners, just off a plane. Why would
they be familiar with Ealing Broadway? What they will be slightly more
familiar with is the concept of capital city mainline stations, and what
they might expect to find there, compared to a commuter station in the
suburbs.

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

You seem to think that the HEx target market consists solely of rich,
ignorant, timorous foreigners, travelling to London for the first time, who
have done precisely zero research into how to get to the address in London
they're aiming for. You also think that very particular market will be
large enough to survive after Crossrail.
I don't think many agree with you.

Certainly they aren't expected to agree with your exaggerated version of
the target market I've described.

Post by Recliner
I certainly don't.

You must agree with it more than you claim, or you wouldn't need to
distort it in an attempt to play to the gallery.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.

[Recliner]

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.

Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.

Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.

To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.

Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.

While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.

Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.

To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.

That's the HEx share. The Tube carries about twice as many.

Post by Roland Perry
Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.
While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.

Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to many
HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without
changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That
explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
Someone using it as a railhead would be doing so deliberately, because it
was conveniently located.

I don't happen to think it's convenient for very much, other than people
whose destination is Ealing Broadway.

It's very useful for the 112 bus to the Ace Café and the nearby
Travelodge, where we usually stay. Avoids going into zone 1 when coming
from Heathrow T5.

Roland will assure you that you are not in the HEx target market. And, he's
absolutely right: by his definition, almost no-one is.

To an extent that's true. After all, rail only carries 10% [that's a
survey result rounded to the nearest percentage, not just wild stab] of
the passengers.

That's the HEx share.

HEx plus Heathrow Connect, although the split is in the region of nine
percentage points for HEx, and one for Connect. The latter is not nearly
as popular as people here imagine.

Post by Recliner
The Tube carries about twice as many.

18% according to the survey I was quoting. But that's not the point -
which is that HEx is *not* the choice of 90(+)%, but is still based on a
solid business case. That 9% using HEx have very good reasons for doing
so, even if our "from the 90% (or is that 91%)" correspondents here are
in denial.

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Then there's the workers, but rail has a tiny 2% share of that with 54%
in cars, 25% on the bus and 9% on the tube. Most of the 2% is Connect, I
expect.
While we see people here bending over backwards to explain why they are
"part of the 90%", that doesn't explain why HEx has met its targets, nor
why it will fail to do so in future.

Why are you so determined to ignore the attractiveness of Crossrail to many
HEx customers: more frequent, goes to many more useful places without
changing, leaves from the same platforms, and, yes, much cheaper. That
explains why HEx will see a slump in usage 2022.

And you are determined to ignore the reasons why people take the
"airport express" rather than grappling with what they perceive to be
the local commuter services.

33% of passengers use a taxi (or private hire) which is of course the
ultimate default when in a strange country. Not all of those will be
heading towards Central London, but the main reason for HEx was to limit
that percentage as much as possible to reduce road congestion/pollution,
by abstracting those passengers who could be attracted by a fast, sexy,
"airport express", with chuggers selling tickets.

You might dislike the chuggers, but the people who are winning here are
other road users and local residents breathing the air[2]. Significant
numbers of those choosing HEx would not be seen dead on a local commuter
service (or more to the point, might suspect they'd be dead if they were
ever seen on it).

An enquiry by the London Assembly in 2011 (looking at LHR air pollution
and the possibilities of encouraging modal shift) heard evidence that
while it was predicted by the DfT that combined rail+tube passenger
numbers would increase by a whole one percentage point (woo-hoo!) when
Crossrail opens[1], but if Crossrail were to grab HEx paths in order to
increase their frequency above 6tph, then rail's modal share would
shrink three percentage points as a result of losing the "Express"
perception (and delivery) of HEx.

In other words, six percentage points would more or less grudgingly
catch Crossrail instead of HEx, but three percentage points would revert
to taxi.

In summary: your gut feel is contradicted by the people who have a
proper feel for the demographic and the actual numbers at their
fingertips.

[1] This obscures an unstated number of passengers switching from tube
to Crossrail, but obviously Crossrail's gain is the tube's loss.
It's public transport share which they were concentrating on.

[2] And in a completely different space, the airport seeking permission
to increase the number of flights as long as it can encourage most
of the additional passengers to use public transport to the airport.

[Sammi Gray-Jones]

Post by Recliner
Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for people
heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary Wharf would
be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what
we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to
Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going
right into Zone 1.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Sammi Gray-Jones

Post by Recliner
Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for
people heading to west London, and people going to the City or Canary
Wharf would be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what
we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to
Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going
right into Zone 1.

As a regular visitor, you just ruled yourself out of HEx's target
market.

Will you be using Crossrail, rather than the tube, in future?

[Sammi Gray-Jones]

Post by Sammi Gray-Jones

 Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for
people  heading to west London, and people going to the City or
Canary Wharf would  be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what
we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to
Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going
right into Zone 1.

As a regular visitor, you just ruled yourself out of HEx's target market.
Will you be using Crossrail, rather than the tube, in future?

That depends if Crossrail opens any time soon, the underground may well
remain the best option for us to use.

[Recliner]

Post by Sammi Gray-Jones

Post by Sammi Gray-Jones

 Not just central London: Ealing Broadway may be more convenient for
people  heading to west London, and people going to the City or
Canary Wharf would  be crazy to take HEx rather than Crossrail.

We usually stay close to the Ace Cafe (good grub there) so that's what
we intend to do from now on. Piccadilly to Acton Town, District to
Ealing Broadway, then the 112 bus round to Wembley instead of going
right into Zone 1.

As a regular visitor, you just ruled yourself out of HEx's target market.
Will you be using Crossrail, rather than the tube, in future?

That depends if Crossrail opens any time soon, the underground may well
remain the best option for us to use.

That bit of Crossrail is already open, albeit with a lower frequency than
planned for the future.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised. The Long Island Railroad also goes to that
Airtrain much faster and lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train
goes to Newark airport via another airtrain and it's also quite
popular.

Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised. The Long Island Railroad also goes to that
Airtrain much faster and lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train
goes to Newark airport via another airtrain and it's also quite
popular.
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

And the same is true in London of course. The Tube runs a much more
frequent (12 tph vs 4 tph), but slower stopping service to Heathrow, and
the trains are packed with suitcases and travellers (many of them foreign).
It carries significantly more pax than HEx and TfL Rail combined.

"The Piccadilly Line accounts for the bulk of the rail and tube journeys to
Heathrow (42 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the airport by
public transport and 16 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the
airport by all modes)."

<https://bettertransport.org.uk/sites/default/files/research-files/surface-access-final.pdf>

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised. The Long Island Railroad also goes to that
Airtrain much faster and lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train
goes to Newark airport via another airtrain and it's also quite
popular.
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

And the same is true in London of course. The Tube runs a much more
frequent (12 tph vs 4 tph), but slower stopping service to Heathrow, and
the trains are packed with suitcases and travellers (many of them foreign).
It carries significantly more pax than HEx and TfL Rail combined.
"The Piccadilly Line accounts for the bulk of the rail and tube journeys to
Heathrow (42 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the airport by
public transport and 16 per cent of all air passenger journeys to the
airport by all modes)."

That's fine for the people comfortable using it. HEx is for the
passengers who would in normal circumstances take a taxi.

Post by Recliner
<https://bettertransport.org.uk/sites/default/files/research-files/surfa
ce-access-final.pdf>

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised.

What I mean is that city subways get tarred with that brush,
irrespective of whether or not the NY on goes anywhere near an airport.

Post by John Levine
The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

Post by John Levine
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry
majority. Plus all the less confident ones who inherently distrust
foreign commuter services rather than airport expresses.

Can't be many of them.

I think it's a majority. Local commuter services have a poor reputation,
the New York subways being the poster boy.

The NY subway doesn't go to LGA and only goes to JFK airport with a
long slow trip out to Queens with a connection to the Airtrain so I'm
not too surprised.

What I mean is that city subways get tarred with that brush,
irrespective of whether or not the NY on goes anywhere near an airport.

Post by John Levine
The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

Post by John Levine
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?
Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

Yes, it's straightforward racial prejudice with MARTA. That could also
apply to some other public transit systems that serve airports.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

Yes, it's straightforward racial prejudice with MARTA. That could also
apply to some other public transit systems that serve airports.

It's a prejudice against muggers, which Hollywood (and others) portray
as infesting metro systems. The ethnicity of the muggers will depend on
which country, as well as which city.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

I haven't a clue. Probably depends where they're from.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi. The distances are greater, and we have absurdly large
car parks. One time at a conference in Lyon (where there is a
convenient overpriced tram from the airport) a young guy from
California on his first international trip rented a car and attempted
to drive it around the city. It was pretty funny.

Post by Roland Perry
Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

I can believe it. The local snark is that MARTA means Moving Africans
Rapidly Through Atlanta. The communter traffic is horrible but
adjacent counties have repeatedly voted down MARTA extensions because
Those People could come to their counties. (It is my impression that
a whole lot of those people come as house cleaners and garden guys,
presumably arriving by magic, or more likely very slow buses.) I've
never had any trouble on MARTA.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it. The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

I haven't a clue. Probably depends where they're from.

It's vital to your thesis because HEx is catering for the high-end
airline passenger who has probably never visited London before, and just
wants to be spoon-fed an "airport express" service to the city centre.

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to. In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I think that's a huge stretch for the kind of travellers involved. For
example the first time I flew into Atlanta from the UK for a trade show
in the city centre, a hire car would be a huge liability. As would one
have been to a similar trade show six months later in New York. What I
needed was to hire a car for an hour to take me to my hotel (and a few
days later, back to the airport). That's called a Taxi.

That doesn't mean I've never flown into a city and hired a car, but
thinking back it's always when I've been on holiday, and my destination
was some way outside that city. That's quite disjoint from HEx's target
market which is people otherwise taking a taxi from Heathrow to Zone 1.

And, of course, for whom even the regular HEx fare is down in the noise
level compared to their $2000 flight or $200/night hotel.

Post by John Levine
The distances are greater, and we have absurdly large
car parks. One time at a conference in Lyon (where there is a
convenient overpriced tram from the airport) a young guy from
California on his first international trip rented a car and attempted
to drive it around the city. It was pretty funny.

It'd be like that in London. And remember, we are discussing why people
would use HEx rather than other modes of transport. To hire a car at
Heathrow to drive to hotel in Zone 1 would be insane.

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

I can believe it. The local snark is that MARTA means Moving Africans
Rapidly Through Atlanta. The communter traffic is horrible but
adjacent counties have repeatedly voted down MARTA extensions because
Those People could come to their counties. (It is my impression that
a whole lot of those people come as house cleaners and garden guys,
presumably arriving by magic, or more likely very slow buses.) I've
never had any trouble on MARTA.

I've never had any trouble on MARTA either, and yes the resistance to
extensions is for precisely the same reason people fear city metro
systems almost everywhere (regardless of the ethnicity of the locals):
that it's perceived as the mode of choice of thieves and muggers.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
The Long Island Railroad also goes to that Airtrain much faster and
lots of people take it.  The NJ Transit train goes to Newark airport
via another airtrain and it's also quite popular.

How many of those people are visitors on their first trip to NY?

I haven't a clue.  Probably depends where they're from.

It's vital to your thesis because HEx is catering for the high-end
airline passenger who has probably never visited London before, and just
wants to be spoon-fed an "airport express" service to the city centre.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Elsewhere in North America, the subway or local commuter train goes to
the airports in Toronto, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington
DC (National), Atlanta, Chicago (both airports), Dallas, St Louis, San
Francisco, Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver, and probably other places
I haven't been to.  In each case there's been plenty of people on the
train with me with suitcases.

First time visitors to the city, who would normally use a taxi?

Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I think that's a huge stretch for the kind of travellers involved. For
example the first time I flew into Atlanta from the UK for a trade show
in the city centre, a hire car would be a huge liability. As would one
have been to a similar trade show six months later in New York. What I
needed was to hire a car for an hour to take me to my hotel (and a few
days later, back to the airport). That's called a Taxi.
That doesn't mean I've never flown into a city and hired a car, but
thinking back it's always when I've been on holiday, and my destination
was some way outside that city. That's quite disjoint from HEx's target
market which is people otherwise taking a taxi from Heathrow to Zone 1.
And, of course, for whom even the regular HEx fare is down in the noise
level compared to their $2000 flight or $200/night hotel.

The distances are greater, and we have absurdly large
car parks.  One time at a conference in Lyon (where there is a
convenient overpriced tram from the airport) a young guy from
California on his first international trip rented a car and attempted
to drive it around the city.  It was pretty funny.

It'd be like that in London. And remember, we are discussing why people
would use HEx rather than other modes of transport. To hire a car at
Heathrow to drive to hotel in Zone 1 would be insane.

Post by Roland Perry
Atlanta's another metro system where people have said I was crazy to mix
it with the locals. It's a very deep seated prejudice.

I can believe it.  The local snark is that MARTA means Moving Africans
Rapidly Through Atlanta.  The communter traffic is horrible but
adjacent counties have repeatedly voted down MARTA extensions because
Those People could come to their counties.  (It is my impression that
a whole lot of those people come as house cleaners and garden guys,
presumably arriving by magic, or more likely very slow buses.)  I've
never had any trouble on MARTA.

I've never had any trouble on MARTA either, and yes the resistance to
extensions is for precisely the same reason people fear city metro
that it's perceived as the mode of choice of thieves and muggers.

Shades of the Duke of Wellington!

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry
It's vital to your thesis because HEx is catering for the high-end
airline passenger who has probably never visited London before, and just
wants to be spoon-fed an "airport express" service to the city centre.

If you say so, but it's hard to believe their business model assumed
that each passenger will make one trip in his lifetime. I cheerfully
agree that if your destination is near Paddington, HeX is quite handy,
particularly if you or your travel planner are able to think a few
days ahead and book a £15 fixed date return HeX ticket.

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I think that's a huge stretch for the kind of travellers involved. For
example the first time I flew into Atlanta from the UK for a trade show
in the city centre, a hire car would be a huge liability. As would one
have been to a similar trade show six months later in New York.

If you're just going to downtown Atlanta or anywhere in NYC you're
right, a car is a bad idea. But they are not typical of US cities or
airports. I have visted a friend who lives on the Emory campus at the
north edge of Atlanta. You can get there on MARTA and a bus, but it's
quite slow. A taxi is quite expensive since it takes hour with
traffic, and you'll typically want a car at your destination anyway
since restaurants and such are rarely within walking distance.

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
It's vital to your thesis because HEx is catering for the high-end
airline passenger who has probably never visited London before, and just
wants to be spoon-fed an "airport express" service to the city centre.

If you say so, but it's hard to believe their business model assumed
that each passenger will make one trip in his lifetime.

Their business model was primarily high-end passengers who would
otherwise have taken a taxi door to door. But as it's traditional in
this group for people to be in denial about that, it becomes necessary
to look at the next layer in the demographic, and look at "why people
choose HEx rather than commuter services". And that's because they are
novices at travelling in London and the rule of thumb in big cities for
the uninitiated is "commuter services are a nightmare, catch the airport
express instead".

It's also why such people also choose to stay in familiar international
chains of hotels, rather than seek out privately-run local alternatives,
but I digress.

Post by John Levine
I cheerfully agree that if your destination is near Paddington, HeX is
quite handy,

For the people in HEx's target market (both of the two above), it's
irrelevant where Paddington is, it's simply a railhead with a taxi-rank
that's (to use London terminology) 'inside Zone 1'.

Post by John Levine
particularly if you or your travel planner are able to think a few
days ahead and book a £15 fixed date return HeX ticket.

Given the other costs of the trip - flight, hotels, and yes the taxi
from Paddington to their ultimate destination - they they think they've
done that task by identifying HEx as the quicker/cheaper[even at rack
rate] way to get to Zone 1, than a taxi starting from Heathrow.

They don't need to airbrush out HEx, and then see what the next more
gruesome option is.

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by John Levine
Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I think that's a huge stretch for the kind of travellers involved. For
example the first time I flew into Atlanta from the UK for a trade show
in the city centre, a hire car would be a huge liability. As would one
have been to a similar trade show six months later in New York.

If you're just going to downtown Atlanta or anywhere in NYC you're
right, a car is a bad idea. But they are not typical of US cities or
airports. I have visted a friend who lives on the Emory campus at the
north edge of Atlanta. You can get there on MARTA and a bus, but it's
quite slow. A taxi is quite expensive since it takes hour with
traffic, and you'll typically want a car at your destination anyway
since restaurants and such are rarely within walking distance.

But we are discussing coming to London, not to cities in the USA.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by John Levine
Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I've never done that when arriving from the UK. I'm usually too
jet-lagged to even think about driving. I mostly stay with friends, so
either they pick me up or I get a taxi. If I need a car, I'll get it the
next day.

I have picked up cars at airports on internal flights, though.

[Roland Perry]

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by John Levine
Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I've never done that when arriving from the UK. I'm usually too
jet-lagged to even think about driving. I mostly stay with friends, so
either they pick me up or I get a taxi. If I need a car, I'll get it
the next day.
I have picked up cars at airports on internal flights, though.

UK internal, or USA internal?

Back in the day, I did once have a long weekend in Glasgow which
involved a flight from London and a rental car. But that was when
I had a very well paid job where being on any kind of holiday was
hugely disapproved of. So one had to flit around within strict
limits, that would not have allowed any other means of transport
(other than perhaps a private helicopter).

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by John Levine
Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I've never done that when arriving from the UK. I'm usually too
jet-lagged to even think about driving. I mostly stay with friends, so
either they pick me up or I get a taxi. If I need a car, I'll get it
the next day.
I have picked up cars at airports on internal flights, though.

UK internal, or USA internal?

USA internal. San Francisco to San Diego usually. Although I did get a
car one time when I flew from Aberdeen to Birmingham to visit the mother
(a dirty job, but it has to be done..!)

Post by Roland Perry
Back in the day, I did once have a long weekend in Glasgow which
involved a flight from London and a rental car. But that was when
I had a very well paid job where being on any kind of holiday was
hugely disapproved of. So one had to flit around within strict
limits, that would not have allowed any other means of transport
(other than perhaps a private helicopter).

That would be nice, I could mess around in a Bell 206 JetRanger all day..!

[Roland Perry]

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by Roland Perry

Post by MissRiaElaine

Post by John Levine
Here in the US, the normal thing at an airport is to rent a car, not
to take a taxi.

I've never done that when arriving from the UK. I'm usually too
jet-lagged to even think about driving. I mostly stay with friends,
so either they pick me up or I get a taxi. If I need a car, I'll get
it the next day.
I have picked up cars at airports on internal flights, though.

UK internal, or USA internal?

USA internal. San Francisco to San Diego usually.

As a regular and seasoned traveller (and also not "destination London"),
you've ruled yourself out of the population under discussion.

[MissRiaElaine]

Post by Roland Perry
As a regular and seasoned traveller (and also not "destination London"),
you've ruled yourself out of the population under discussion.

I'm always doing things like that, take no notice..!

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:50:33 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

I think you're underestimating them. Its not the 1990s anymore where tourists
rock up in a new place scratching their heads and clutching a Lonely Planet
book not quite sure what to do. I imagine most of them will have done their
homework online including the best way to get from the airport to their hotel
and if that involves a train no doubt Crossrail will feature.

Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

[Recliner]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:50:33 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:38:02 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

It'll leave all the first-time visitors, which will probably be the

Why would it? I'm sure most of them can read a metro map and will immediately
spot the lines that go to central london and won't much care for the one
that goes to a bears home.

For the reasons I've explained why airport express services are more
attractive than the local commuter services.

I think you're underestimating them. Its not the 1990s anymore where tourists
rock up in a new place scratching their heads and clutching a Lonely Planet
book not quite sure what to do. I imagine most of them will have done their
homework online including the best way to get from the airport to their hotel
and if that involves a train no doubt Crossrail will feature.
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

[John Levine]

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

[Recliner]

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.

Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.
Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

[Recliner]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.
Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the
Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall,
the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end.

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 14:33:29 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less

packed.

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.
Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the
Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall,
the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end.

Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly
hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london
and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable
speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually
terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost
2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them).

While you have a point about luggage, a lot of the time in the rush hour there
was often nowhere left for more heathrow bound passengers to put theirs and
they ended up sitting on their cases in the middle of the vestibule.

[Roland Perry]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the
Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall,
the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end.

Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly
hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london
and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable
speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually
terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost
2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them).
While you have a point about luggage, a lot of the time in the rush hour there
was often nowhere left for more heathrow bound passengers to put theirs and
they ended up sitting on their cases in the middle of the vestibule.

I'm forced to agree about the crowding/standing, having taken the
Piccadilly from Kings Cross to Heathrow T4 and back earlier this year.
And not even during a rush hour (it was Saturday mid-morning and
mid-evening). The attraction, rather than using HEx/Connect, was only
having to change trains once, at Kings Cross.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the
Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall,
the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end.

Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly
hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london
and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable
speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually
terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost
2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them).
While you have a point about luggage, a lot of the time in the rush hour there
was often nowhere left for more heathrow bound passengers to put theirs and
they ended up sitting on their cases in the middle of the vestibule.

I'm forced to agree about the crowding/standing, having taken the
Piccadilly from Kings Cross to Heathrow T4 and back earlier this year.
And not even during a rush hour (it was Saturday mid-morning and
mid-evening). The attraction, rather than using HEx/Connect, was only
having to change trains once, at Kings Cross.

Exactly. It's an easy, if protracted, journey.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the
Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall,
the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end.

Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly
hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london
and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable
speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually
terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost
2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them).
While you have a point about luggage, a lot of the time in the rush hour there
was often nowhere left for more heathrow bound passengers to put theirs and
they ended up sitting on their cases in the middle of the vestibule.

I'm forced to agree about the crowding/standing, having taken the
Piccadilly from Kings Cross to Heathrow T4 and back earlier this year.
And not even during a rush hour (it was Saturday mid-morning and
mid-evening). The attraction, rather than using HEx/Connect, was only
having to change trains once, at Kings Cross.

Exactly. It's an easy, if protracted, journey.

I wouldn't have called the rather long walks (with luggage) at
either end "easy", nor the standing on the train with its constant
start/stopping. The only attraction was lack of further changes, and
once on the train a reasonably accurate prediction of when we'd arrive.

As it happens we only just made the 1tph onward from Kings Cross,
whereas we were far too early to the airport (but an hour later,
assuming no cancellations and it therefore not being two hours later)
would have been too tight.

[Recliner]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 14:33:29 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 02:18:00 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less

packed.

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine
Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.
Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations. The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

Even if you're going somewhere in north london on the piccadilly line it
would probably still be considerably quicker to take crossrail and change
in central london twice. As for KX - Farringdon then 1 stop on the met or
thameslink, finsbury park - farringdon then 2 stops on thameslink (if they
can be bothered to run their trains on time just for once).

Crossrail might be quicker, but the trains will be less frequent than the
Piccadilly, and people with luggage don't like changing trains. Overall,
the Piccadilly is more convenient, and probably hardly slower end-to-end.

Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end.

We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from
LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for
changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross,
that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a
more frequent service and no change required at Heathrow Central, it might
be only 5 mins longer on average.

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end.

We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from
LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for
changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross,
that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a

Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone up
the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit.
Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be
a year away.

[Recliner]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end.

We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from
LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for
changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross,
that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a

Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone up
the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit.
Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be
a year away.

More, now.

The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far
from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains
from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away.

[Recliner]

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:49:05 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:08:49 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end.

We already have the Crossrail journey planner. It estimates 39 minutes from
LHR T5 to Farringdon, or 40 from T4 to Farringdon. If you allow 5+ mins for
changing to the Underground, and another 5 mins to get to Kings Cross,
that's about 50+ minutes. It's about 10 mins longer on the Tube, but with a

Only 10 mins longer on the tube if the piccadilly line timetable hasn't gone

up

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
the spout yet again. Which probably happens slightly less often than Brexit.
Still, rather moot until Crossfail actually starts which always seems to be
a year away.

More, now.
The tunnel won't open in 2020, and even if it opens in early 2021 — far
from guaranteed — the through services will come later. So, through trains
from Heathrow to Farringdon are probably at least two years away.

Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same
people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not the
ones doing crossrail.

No, that's also behind schedule, partly to align with the Bank station
reopening. It was originally planned to open in 2020, but the currently
scheduled opening date is Sep 2021.

<https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/exclusive-northern-line-extension-to-open-nine-months-late-14-12-2018/>

Both the Battersea contractors are also involved in Crossrail.

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:33:25 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Lets hope if the Bakerloo extension gets financing TfL will hire the same
people doing the northern line extension which seems to be on schedule, not

the

ones doing crossrail.

No, that's also behind schedule, partly to align with the Bank station
reopening. It was originally planned to open in 2020, but the currently
scheduled opening date is Sep 2021.

Oh well. The TV program I watched about it was obviously somewhat optimistic.

Post by Recliner
<https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/exclusive-northern-line-extension-to-o
pen-nine-months-late-14-12-2018/>

I suppose 634m isn't too bad for a few miles of bored tube tunnel and stations
under London considering the jocks managed to blow almost 800m on 9 miles of
tram line which is a pretty staggering achievement and is almost crossfail
standard.

[Basil Jet]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly
hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london
and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable
speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually
terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost
2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them).

I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

[Bryan Morris]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Well until we see a crossrail timetable there's no way to tell, but having
commuted all the way to hatton cross and back each day for 9 months on that
line I would be very surprised if it was the same end to end. It is utterly
hopeless especially in the rush hour - it literally crawls through west london
and only once past hammersmith does it reach anything approaching a reasonable
speed. And then there'd usually be some pointless delay at Acton. I actually
terminated the contract early because I couldn't stand it any longer, almost
2 hours each way door to door on a bad day (which was most of them).

I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%

I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.

Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform. Westminster and Waterloo Jubilee
Line platforms are between 25-26m below sea level.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform. Westminster and Waterloo Jubilee
Line platforms are between 25-26m below sea level.

What about the DLR at Bank?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform. Westminster and Waterloo Jubilee
Line platforms are between 25-26m below sea level.

What about the DLR at Bank?

Gets tangled up in whether it's a "tube" service or not.

But maybe people can comment on whether it's also "unbearably deep",
nevertheless.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform. Westminster and Waterloo Jubilee
Line platforms are between 25-26m below sea level.

What about the DLR at Bank?

Gets tangled up in whether it's a "tube" service or not.

Well, they're bored tube tunnels.

Post by Roland Perry
But maybe people can comment on whether it's also "unbearably deep",
nevertheless.

I don't notice any depth effects on any of these underground lines, nor the
Channel, nor even the Seikan Tunnel (240m below sea level). Similarly, I
don't get light-headed 240m above sea level.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform. Westminster and Waterloo Jubilee
Line platforms are between 25-26m below sea level.

What about the DLR at Bank?

Gets tangled up in whether it's a "tube" service or not.

Why would that be an issue?

[Roland Perry]

Post by Graeme Wall

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform. Westminster and Waterloo Jubilee
Line platforms are between 25-26m below sea level.

What about the DLR at Bank?

Gets tangled up in whether it's a "tube" service or not.

Why would that be an issue?

Because Roland hadn’t thought of it and was trying to confine this thread
diversion to tube tunnels to disguise that, even though Basil had already
introduced non tube tunnels in his post by writing “ no other tunnel
affects me like that, not even the Chunnel”.

I did think of it, and looked it up, but decided my original bid for the
Jubilee Line was more consistent with the theme.

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

[Roland Perry]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below the
surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

[Bryan Morris]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below the
surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below ground
level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55 metres
(180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

[Bryan Morris]

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below
the surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below ground
level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55 metres
(180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

BTW - I used to live in Highgate and frequently travelled Hampstead
Lane/Heath Street to my office . Hampstead station is not at the top of
the Hill (I might be wrong but it's the Pond by the Heath that's
probably the apex) so the line is further under ground there than at the
station.

[Marland]

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below
the surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below ground
level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55 metres
(180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

BTW - I used to live in Highgate and frequently travelled Hampstead
Lane/Heath Street to my office . Hampstead station is not at the top of
the Hill (I might be wrong but it's the Pond by the Heath that's
probably the apex) so the line is further under ground there than at the
station.

Isn’t the deepest bit near the site of the unfinished North End Station now
better known by the unofficial name Bull and Bush?

GH

[Roland Perry]

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below
the surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below
ground level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55
metres (180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

BTW - I used to live in Highgate and frequently travelled Hampstead
Lane/Heath Street to my office . Hampstead station is not at the top of
the Hill (I might be wrong but it's the Pond by the Heath that's
probably the apex) so the line is further under ground there than at
the station.

The highest point the line passes under is 446ft (136m) the other side
of the road from the aptly named Heath Brow car park; the old Bull and
Bush pub is 391ft (119m).

Note that Google maps is particularly bad at showing the route with it's
"fit a curve to the stations" algorithm ignoring a bend just north of
Hampstead station with the actual line following Heath Road.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below
the surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below ground
level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55 metres
(180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

Indeed, but if the earlier poster was having difficulty breathing due to
depth, it could be attributed to air pressure, which is a factor of
sea-level, not depth from the surface. However as the effect is less
than 1% at such depths, perhaps it's claustrophobia or air pollution
that's really the issue. In which case the tube lines are more prone to
those than the DLR.

[Marland]

Post by Roland Perry
In

Post by Bryan Morris
Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below ground
level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55 metres
(180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

Indeed, but if the earlier poster was having difficulty breathing due to
depth, it could be attributed to air pressure, which is a factor of
sea-level, not depth from the surface. However as the effect is less
than 1% at such depths, perhaps it's claustrophobia or air pollution
that's really the issue. In which case the tube lines are more prone to
those than the DLR.

But I wonder what it is peculiar to the Piccadilly that affects Basil in
that way ?
He says it is the deepness of it but it isn’t really that different from
the other London tube Lines (using tube in the old way to describe the
smaller loading gauge routes).
Perhaps it is the only one he uses , or enters by one of the few remaining
lifts entries which seem to emphasise
a trip towards the underworld.
Basil,have you ever taken a journey on the Glasgow Subway?
If you have did you find that claustrophobic at all with it loading gauge
even smaller than London tubes.


GH

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Roland Perry

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:17:03 +0000

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Bryan Morris

Post by Basil Jet
I find the Picc unbearably deep, so by the time I've reached Barons
Court (westbound) I'm standing by the door gasping for fresh air. No
other tunnel affects me like that, not even the Chunnel.

I thought the Northern Line Edgware Branch was deepest. I know when I
used to travel via Hampstead/Golders Green my ears used to pop.

That's the deepest under the surface, but the surface is a hill! Air
pressure on the surface there will be lower as a result, by about 2.5%
I think the deepest below sea level (from memory) is the Jubilee between
Westminster and Waterloo.
Later: Hampstead Station is approx 200m above sea level at the surface,
140m above sea level at the platform.

Not it isn't. The highest point of the heath which is well above the tube
station is 134m. I'm guessing the station entrance is around 80-90m.

That's what one gets for looking things up at what turns out to be an
unreliable source. I still believe that the platforms are 60m below
the surface, which a more reliable source puts at 376ft (ie 115m).

Hampstead is on a steep hill and the station platforms are the deepest
on the London Underground network, at 58.5 metres (192 ft) below ground
level. It has the deepest lift shaft on the Underground at 55 metres
(180 ft) which houses high-speed lifts.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampstead_tube_station

Indeed, but if the earlier poster was having difficulty breathing due to
depth, it could be attributed to air pressure, which is a factor of
sea-level, not depth from the surface. However as the effect is less
than 1% at such depths, perhaps it's claustrophobia or air pollution
that's really the issue. In which case the tube lines are more prone to
those than the DLR.

Yes, it sounds more like claustrophobia than air pressure. But I don't
think the 73TS is any more claustrophobic than any other current Tube
stock, so I don't know why that line should be different to, say, the
Bakerloo line, whose trains have a similar mid 1970s ambience. And, apart
from the twisty section just east of South Ken, the Piccadilly line tunnels
aren't as noisy as, say, the Northern or JLE.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.
Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations.

If I were to use Crossrail to get to Kings Cross, I'd probably change at
Farringdon. For many inner/outer suburban destinations, it would
actually be the only change.

Post by Recliner
The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

I know there's a lot of cheap hotels in the Kings Cross area, so perhaps
the tourists arriving for the first time at Heathrow might be tempted to
use the Piccadilly to get to them. Given the cheapness of the hotels,
they probably aren't part of the market for HEx, which would previously
have involved paying for a taxi.

For completeness, the number of people arriving at Heathrow and then
wanting to get a train from Kings Cross is down in the noise level.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner

Post by John Levine

Post by Recliner

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
Aside from Hex I suspect the piccadilly line will face a hefty slump in
passengers too given how slow and uncomfortable it is.

Yes, quite likely: for many pax, Crossrail will be the better option. I'm
not one of them, but will be delighted if the Tube trains are less packed.

Since TfL gets the fare whether you take the Picc or Crossrail,
wouldn't that be their cunning plan to free up more underground
capacity?

I think both are cheap enough that pax will choose between them based on
convenience, not price. It really depends on whether the Piccadilly or
Crossrail routes suit you better.
Oddly enough, the only interchange stations between the Piccadilly and
Crossrail are at Heathrow, so they serve a different set of central London
stations.

If I were to use Crossrail to get to Kings Cross, I'd probably change at
Farringdon.

Yes, of course. But I'd rather do it without changing if I'm carrying
luggage. If I arrive at T5 and want to go to Kings Cross, I can do it on a
direct Piccadilly train, with a maximum wait of 10 mins. With Crossrail, I
might have to change twice, for less frequent trains.

Post by Roland Perry
For many inner/outer suburban destinations, it would
actually be the only change.

Yes

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Recliner
The Piccadilly then goes on to serve north London, and Crossrail,
the City and east London. So, if you're heading for Padd, Farringdon or
Liverpool St, choose Crossrail; for Kings Cross St Pancras, the Piccadilly.

I know there's a lot of cheap hotels in the Kings Cross area, so perhaps
the tourists arriving for the first time at Heathrow might be tempted to
use the Piccadilly to get to them. Given the cheapness of the hotels,
they probably aren't part of the market for HEx, which would previously
have involved paying for a taxi.

You must be richer than I thought if you regard the St. Pancras Renaissance
Hotel and the Great Northern Hotel as cheap.

Post by Roland Perry
For completeness, the number of people arriving at Heathrow and then
wanting to get a train from Kings Cross is down in the noise level.

Is it? I see plenty of them.

[Roland Perry]

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
I know there's a lot of cheap hotels in the Kings Cross area, so perhaps
the tourists arriving for the first time at Heathrow might be tempted to
use the Piccadilly to get to them. Given the cheapness of the hotels,
they probably aren't part of the market for HEx, which would previously
have involved paying for a taxi.

You must be richer than I thought if you regard the St. Pancras Renaissance
Hotel and the Great Northern Hotel as cheap.

Are they the only two hotels in the area? (The one I've used is the
Travelodge that overlooks the old Met line St Kings Cross station).

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
For completeness, the number of people arriving at Heathrow and then
wanting to get a train from Kings Cross is down in the noise level.

Is it? I see plenty of them.

There's 100k passengers a day arriving a Heathrow. The number ending up
on the ECML is down in the noise level.

[John Levine]

Post by Roland Perry
I know there's a lot of cheap hotels in the Kings Cross area, so perhaps
the tourists arriving for the first time at Heathrow might be tempted to
use the Piccadilly to get to them. Given the cheapness of the hotels,
they probably aren't part of the market for HEx, which would previously
have involved paying for a taxi.

I suppose but there's also a lot of cheap hotels in Norfolk Square and
Sussex Gardens near Paddington. What do you expect those visitors to
do?

[Roland Perry]

Post by John Levine

Post by Roland Perry
I know there's a lot of cheap hotels in the Kings Cross area, so perhaps
the tourists arriving for the first time at Heathrow might be tempted to
use the Piccadilly to get to them. Given the cheapness of the hotels,
they probably aren't part of the market for HEx, which would previously
have involved paying for a taxi.

I suppose but there's also a lot of cheap hotels in Norfolk Square and
Sussex Gardens near Paddington. What do you expect those visitors to
do?

Whatever they "do", it's unlikely to be an alternative to a black cab
from Heathrow. They will be a different kind of traveller.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by tim...
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-express-ticket-cheap-train-fares-airport-crossrail-travel-a9165661.html

That was inevitable once they lost their monopoly.

[b***@nowhere.co.uk]

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 22:16:22 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Roland Perry
On the contrary, news of these price cuts are unlikely to make their way
through to their main target market, who will continue to pay the full
price. Meanwhile, in the UK some gullible people might be persuaded that
HEx isn't as expensive (as a commuter service, which isn't its target
market) after all.

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

I suspect even the owners of HEx know it'll be dead in the water once
crossrail opens and are probably just grateful for every extra month crossrail
is delayed.

[Recliner]

Post by b***@nowhere.co.uk
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 22:16:22 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Roland Perry
On the contrary, news of these price cuts are unlikely to make their way
through to their main target market, who will continue to pay the full
price. Meanwhile, in the UK some gullible people might be persuaded that
HEx isn't as expensive (as a commuter service, which isn't its target
market) after all.

plenty of British travellers and savvy foreign travellers use the airport
too. Any of them who have been HEx users will switch to Crossrail when it's
fully open, and not just because it's cheaper. That won't leave enough
premium payers on HEx to keep it viable.

I suspect even the owners of HEx know it'll be dead in the water once
crossrail opens and are probably just grateful for every extra month crossrail
is delayed.

Yes, the two-year Crossrail delay has been a real bonus for HAL.