End of end era: Mondeoman exit

Post by J. J. Lodder
End of end era: Mondeoman exit.
After thirty years of being proverbial,
and after three years of denial that they would do so
Ford has finally pulled the plug on the Mondeo.
Seems that Tesla has won,

This is a rather tangential, if not obscure subject to rail about in
AUE. Is there anything particular in Ford's announcement you are
objecting to?

Mondeo is, to the best of my knowledge, an unremarkable car produced by
an unremarkable company (Ford).

In his 2010 review of the Mondeo Clarkson characterised the car as the
"[the] missionary-position" of cars.

Why are you comparing it to just Tesla, and not any other breed of
better car?

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/the-clarkson-review-ford-mondeo-2010/

charles

2021-03-31 19:44:41 UTC

This is a rather tangential, if not obscure subject to rail about in
AUE. Is there anything particular in Ford's announcement you are
objecting to?
Mondeo is, to the best of my knowledge, an unremarkable car produced by
an unremarkable company (Ford).
In his 2010 review of the Mondeo Clarkson characterised the car as the
"[the] missionary-position" of cars.
Why are you comparing it to just Tesla, and not any other breed of
better car?
https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/the-clarkson-review-ford-mondeo-2010/

and, in any case, Ford have produced an Electric Vehicle as a potential
rival to Tesla. a Mustang Mach E (Mondeo uses an ic engine.)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-01 09:47:49 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Jan

occam

2021-04-01 11:12:44 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Not just "Mondeoman". I remember in the early 2000's the UK Government
had a handy socioeconomic classification system according to the type of
vehicles taxpayers drove (or aspired to drive). I remember finding
myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford), much to my embarrassment. I do not
recall if all the cars used for this classification were in the Ford
range. I do recall 'Fiestaman' for young, boy-racer types.

Ken Blake

2021-04-01 16:29:02 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Too bad you weren't a Camryman. If you were, you might have been able to
get a high-paying job in Hollywod.

--
Ken

Mark Brader

2021-04-01 22:01:17 UTC

Post by occam
Not just "Mondeoman". I remember in the early 2000's the UK Government
had a handy socioeconomic classification system according to the type of
vehicles taxpayers drove (or aspired to drive).

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

--
Mark Brader | "A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why
Toronto | my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county
***@vex.net | and it comes every two and a half minutes" -- John Rowland

Sam Plusnet

2021-04-01 23:58:31 UTC

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

"Man of the Galaxy" has a better sound to it.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-02 10:02:38 UTC

Post by occam
Not just "Mondeoman". I remember in the early 2000's the UK
Government had a handy socioeconomic classification system according
to the type of vehicles taxpayers drove (or aspired to drive).

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

"Man of the Galaxy" has a better sound to it.

Marathon Man (other chocolate Heros are available).

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Chrysi Cat

2021-04-04 01:44:47 UTC

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

Very much not.

The Ford Galaxy is a minivan; the Ford GALAXIE, by contrast, was the
largest traditional passenger car (rear-drive, some hardtops, some
sedans and the rare coupe).

It was built in Brazil (I suspect anymore, that's increasingly "in
*Brasil* instead, even in the English world) and in Australia, but if it
was ever even offered to Ford of Europe or Ford of Britain, it was
understandably rejected due to being a New-World-sized car.

There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent
England after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion with
the EU, for that matter.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Peter Moylan

2021-04-04 00:57:24 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent
England after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion
with the EU, for that matter.

I'm surprised that this is taking so long. The will of the Scots sounds
pretty clear to me. Logically, the break should have happened before
Brexit became final, to allow continuity of trade.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-04 08:55:42 UTC

On Sun, 04 Apr 2021 00:57:24 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent
England after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion
with the EU, for that matter.

I'm surprised that this is taking so long. The will of the Scots sounds
pretty clear to me. Logically, the break should have happened before
Brexit became final, to allow continuity of trade.

The manadarins in Whitehall are very reluctant to give up any more of the
Empire.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

occam

2021-04-04 09:02:33 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 04 Apr 2021 00:57:24 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent
England after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion
with the EU, for that matter.

I'm surprised that this is taking so long. The will of the Scots sounds
pretty clear to me. Logically, the break should have happened before
Brexit became final, to allow continuity of trade.

The manadarins in Whitehall are very reluctant to give up any more of the
Empire.

It was not up to the mandarins in Whitehall. In the 2014 Scottish
independence referendum, it was up to the Scottish people. And they blew
it! Of course they could not have known about Brexit then, else the
result might have been different.

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-04 09:30:58 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 04 Apr 2021 00:57:24 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent
England after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion
with the EU, for that matter.

I'm surprised that this is taking so long. The will of the Scots
sounds pretty clear to me. Logically, the break should have happened
before Brexit became final, to allow continuity of trade.

The manadarins in Whitehall are very reluctant to give up any more of
the Empire.

It was not up to the mandarins in Whitehall. In the 2014 Scottish
independence referendum, it was up to the Scottish people. And they
blew it! Of course they could not have known about Brexit then, else
the result might have been different.

The "UK" government won't let the Scots have another go.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Quinn C

2021-04-04 14:32:37 UTC

[Scots independece]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The manadarins in Whitehall are very reluctant to give up any more of
the Empire.

It was not up to the mandarins in Whitehall. In the 2014 Scottish
independence referendum, it was up to the Scottish people. And they
blew it! Of course they could not have known about Brexit then, else
the result might have been different.

The "UK" government won't let the Scots have another go.

Why should it be up to them? (I may have been influenced by my Quebec
surroundings. Although I am in favor of Montreal independence in case
Quebec leaves Canada. It's easy to joke about that, it seems so unlikely
now.)

Do you think they would come down as hard as the Spanish did on the
Catalans if the Scots decided to just ignore them? I thought that was a
disgrace.

--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-04 18:38:48 UTC

On Sun, 04 Apr 2021 14:32:37 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
[Scots independece]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The manadarins in Whitehall are very reluctant to give up any more of
the Empire.

It was not up to the mandarins in Whitehall. In the 2014 Scottish
independence referendum, it was up to the Scottish people. And they
blew it! Of course they could not have known about Brexit then, else
the result might have been different.

The "UK" government won't let the Scots have another go.

Why should it be up to them? (I may have been influenced by my Quebec
surroundings. Although I am in favor of Montreal independence in case
Quebec leaves Canada. It's easy to joke about that, it seems so unlikely
now.)
Do you think they would come down as hard as the Spanish did on the
Catalans if the Scots decided to just ignore them? I thought that was a
disgrace.

The Spanish have less of a tradition of democracy; ours (UK) is looking
increasingly dodgy.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Mark Brader

2021-04-04 02:32:18 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
The Ford Galaxy is a minivan; the Ford GALAXIE, by contrast, was the
largest traditional passenger car...

Ah. Got it, thanks.

--
Mark Brader "...we are now uniquely privileged to sit side by side
Toronto with the giants on whose shoulders we stand."
***@vex.net -- Gerald Holton

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-04 08:29:30 UTC

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

Very much not.
The Ford Galaxy is a minivan; the Ford GALAXIE, by contrast, was the
largest traditional passenger car (rear-drive, some hardtops, some
sedans and the rare coupe).

They are not unknown, in these parts.
[looking] I see one advertised, the rare white coupe,
fully restored for a mere 25 000 euros.

Some people like to dress up American-like,
and go to oldtimer festivals with such cars
to meet others with the same hobby.
There they do real American things that all Americans do,
like listening to country music and line dancing,

Jan

Snidely

2021-04-04 15:56:53 UTC

Lo, on the 4/3/2021, Chrysi Cat did proclaim ...

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

Some, but Louisville, KY isn't usually considered to be in Brazil.
Neither is Wayne, MI. Yes, there were some built in Homebush, Sydney,
Australia and São Paulo, Brazil, but apparently for local consumption.
(1964-1968, Oz, and 1967-1983 BR).

"Galaxie" first appeared as a subtype of the Ford Fairlane, and 1958
was the year of dual headlights and modest fins [carried over into
1959, as the WP pics show], but became the top-line badge until the
Ford LTD took over.

And WP has the note , " For the Ford Galaxy sold in Argentina
1987–1991, see Volkswagen Carat." (which redirects to
<URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Santana>

Post by Chrysi Cat
(I suspect anymore, that's increasingly "in *Brasil*
instead, even in the English world) and in Australia, but if it was ever even
offered to Ford of Europe or Ford of Britain, it was understandably rejected
due to being a New-World-sized car.
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent England
after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion with the EU, for
that matter.

by the time of independence, only a handful of Galaxies will be around,
all in the hands of collectors [or maybe a fallen-down barn].

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

Chrysi Cat

2021-04-04 18:08:52 UTC

Post by Snidely
Lo, on the 4/3/2021, Chrysi Cat did proclaim ...

See signature quote.

Post by occam
I remember finding myself labelled a 'Galaxyman' (Ford)...

Not Galaxieman?

Oy. I thought the "originated in the US market" part was a given, so I
was pointing out where *OUTSIDE THE US* it was produced and intended for
local distribution. The point was more along the lines of "it's like a
Pontiac in Germany or an Opel Manta in Virginia".

Post by Snidely
"Galaxie" first appeared as a subtype of the Ford Fairlane, and 1958 was
the year of dual headlights and modest fins [carried over into 1959, as
the WP pics show], but became the top-line badge until the Ford LTD took
over.
And WP has the note , " For the Ford Galaxy sold in Argentina 1987–1991,
see Volkswagen Carat." (which redirects to
<URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Santana>

Post by Chrysi Cat
(I suspect anymore, that's increasingly "in *Brasil* instead, even in
the English world) and in Australia, but if it was ever even offered
to Ford of Europe or Ford of Britain, it was understandably rejected
due to being a New-World-sized car.
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK. Or in independent
England after Scotland puts paid to the Union in favour of reunion
with the EU, for that matter.

by the time of independence, only a handful of Galaxies will be around,
all in the hands of collectors [or maybe a fallen-down barn].
/dps

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Ken Blake

2021-04-04 16:27:21 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I don't
remember ever seeing it before.

--
Ken

Quinn C

2021-04-04 17:08:10 UTC

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I don't
remember ever seeing it before.

I think the people I heard it from were American. Obvi, they are the
kind of people who would totes ask what's the sitch with your fam on
vacay.

--
9/11 was pretty much the 9/11 of the falafel business.
-- Abed Nadir on Community

musika

2021-04-04 18:02:39 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I
don't remember ever seeing it before.

I think the people I heard it from were American. Obvi,

That would be obvs over here.

Post by Quinn C
they are the kind of people who would totes ask what's the sitch with
your fam on vacay.

--
Ray
UK

Chrysi Cat

2021-04-04 18:04:01 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I don't
remember ever seeing it before.

I think the people I heard it from were American. Obvi, they are the
kind of people who would totes ask what's the sitch with your fam on
vacay.

Incidentally, I was already using the term "sitch" in 1994 (partly as an
expansion of "what's the haps"), though basically at the time it was
"trying to make 'fetch' happen". The rest indeed go along with it, and
then "what's the sitch" itself went national and mainstream with Kim
Possible.

As Quinn suggested, the terms are not only American; they're largely
American and used by people who began using them when they were under 25
years of age, though most of us who *did* begin using such terms didn't
STOP doing so when we turned 30 or even 40.

Also, Quinn, the word you're looking for to initiate your snarky
sentence about thsoe type of terms/abbreviations isn't "obvi", but
"obvs". :-P

--
Chrysi Cat--first 4 years California, remainder Colorado, Oregonian parents
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Snidely

2021-04-04 17:13:46 UTC

Ken Blake pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I don't
remember ever seeing it before.

No, it's pretty American, from the same era as "peeps" for people (most
often in "my people", aka "my posse"). Although "defs" is new to me,
it follows a pattern that we've discussed here before. I'm blanking on
the canonical example from that discussion [1], but "certs" for
certainly is in the same group.

[1] The ambitious might be mildly amused by tracking down a post by me
that had a link to a foodie truck in Westwood [Village] which was
relevant to the conversation. I think one of the words discussed was
used on the truck.

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

Ken Blake

2021-04-04 18:19:10 UTC

Post by Snidely
Ken Blake pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I don't
remember ever seeing it before.

No, it's pretty American,

OK, but it's new to me.

Post by Snidely
from the same era as "peeps" for people (most

I've seen that, but never heard it.

Post by Snidely
often in "my people", aka "my posse"). Although "defs" is new to me,
it follows a pattern that we've discussed here before. I'm blanking on
the canonical example from that discussion [1], but "certs" for
certainly is in the same group.

Never seen or heard that either.

--
Ken

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-04 18:59:42 UTC

Post by Snidely
Ken Blake pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

Post by Chrysi Cat
There would defs never be a Galaxieman in the UK.

Is "defs" an abbreviation for "definitely"? Is that BrE slang? I don't
remember ever seeing it before.

No, it's pretty American,

OK, but it's new to me.

Post by Snidely
from the same era as "peeps" for people (most

I've seen that, but never heard it.

Only Harry Enfield's Stavros character used it, AFAICT;- "Hello evrbody
peeps"

later stuff:

Never seen or heard that either.

deffo nogo hereabouts.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-02 08:18:10 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Why the embarresment? That's almost prefect,

Jan

occam

2021-04-02 09:19:37 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Why the embarresment? That's almost prefect,

Not if you don't think of yourself as "an average family man with a
mortgage, a dog, and 2.4 children".

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-04 08:29:29 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Why the embarresment? That's almost prefect,

Not if you don't think of yourself as "an average family man with a
mortgage, a dog, and 2.4 children".

Prefect wasn't,

Jan

Janet

2021-04-02 09:32:46 UTC

In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>, ***@de-
ster.demon.nl says...

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Why the embarresment? That's almost prefect,
Jan

Br. E also has "White van man"

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_van_man>

Janet.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2021-04-01 12:40:41 UTC

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_man

Essex man and Mondeo man are stereotypical figures which were
popularised in 1990s England.
....
"Mondeo man" was identified as the sort of voter the Labour Party
needed to attract to win the election in 1997.
....

Mondeo man

The concept of the "Mondeo man" was popularised by a phrase used by
then Leader of the Labour Party, Tony Blair at the Labour Party
Conference in October 1996. He recalled a Ford Sierra owner he had
canvassed in the Midlands whilst out campaigning for the 1992
general election. The man was a self-employed electrician, who Blair
met while the man was polishing his car at the weekend, and told
Blair that he was an ex-Labour voter who had bought his council
house, owned his own car, and wondered what the Labour Party had to
offer him given the party's history of raising taxes and mortgage
rates:

{Tony Blair:}
His dad voted Labour, he said. He used to vote Labour, too. But
he'd bought his own house now. He'd set up his own business. He
was doing very nicely. "So I've become a Tory" he said. In that
moment, he crystallised for me the basis of our failure... His
instincts were to get on in life. And he thought our instincts
were to stop him. But that was never our history or our purpose.

Although that man had a Ford Sierra that model had been replaced by the
Ford Mondeo a few years earlier.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mondeo-man

Mondeo Man in British English
noun
British informal
a middle-class man, seen as typically driving a Ford Mondeo and
preferring to do this rather than use public transport

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Tony Cooper

2021-04-01 13:39:03 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Yes, but Tony Blair made a word out of it.
So now we have an experimental possibility
to measure the half-life of a word,

Yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_man
Essex man and Mondeo man are stereotypical figures which were
popularised in 1990s England.
....
"Mondeo man" was identified as the sort of voter the Labour Party
needed to attract to win the election in 1997.
....
Mondeo man
The concept of the "Mondeo man" was popularised by a phrase used by
then Leader of the Labour Party, Tony Blair at the Labour Party
Conference in October 1996. He recalled a Ford Sierra owner he had
canvassed in the Midlands whilst out campaigning for the 1992
general election. The man was a self-employed electrician, who Blair
met while the man was polishing his car at the weekend, and told
Blair that he was an ex-Labour voter who had bought his council
house, owned his own car, and wondered what the Labour Party had to
offer him given the party's history of raising taxes and mortgage
{Tony Blair:}
His dad voted Labour, he said. He used to vote Labour, too. But
he'd bought his own house now. He'd set up his own business. He
was doing very nicely. "So I've become a Tory" he said. In that
moment, he crystallised for me the basis of our failure... His
instincts were to get on in life. And he thought our instincts
were to stop him. But that was never our history or our purpose.
Although that man had a Ford Sierra that model had been replaced by the
Ford Mondeo a few years earlier.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mondeo-man
Mondeo Man in British English
noun
British informal
a middle-class man, seen as typically driving a Ford Mondeo and
preferring to do this rather than use public transport

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

The "station wagon" was the suburbanite vehicle, then the van
(Plymouth Voyager/Dodge Caravan, etc) then the SUV.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Garrett Wollman

2021-04-01 22:28:40 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mondeo-man
Mondeo Man in British English
noun
British informal
a middle-class man, seen as typically driving a Ford Mondeo and
preferring to do this rather than use public transport

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

Yes, I think stereotypes here go with vehicle classes or makes rather
than specific models -- except for the Toyota Prius; there is
definitely a stereotype of Prius drivers. Makes which have associated
stereotypes include Tesla (techbro assholes), BMW (finance assholes,
surgeons, and dentists), Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class
women), and various other luxury-car lines.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Quinn C

2021-04-01 22:36:32 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

The VW Passat that my father used to drive was long considered the
typical "public servant car" in Germany (or sometimes just "school
teacher car"). Yes, the stereotype applied in my father's case.

--
The lack of any sense of play between them worried Miles. You
had to have a keen sense of humor to do sex and stay sane.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Memory

Peter T. Daniels

2021-04-02 14:45:56 UTC

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

The VW Passat that my father used to drive was long considered the
typical "public servant car" in Germany (or sometimes just "school
teacher car"). Yes, the stereotype applied in my father's case.

The village doctor drove a Buick. Less flashy than a Cadillac,
but solid and prosperous.

Tony Cooper

2021-04-01 23:41:37 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

In this area, the only time I've seen Hummers on the road is on city
streets.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-02 10:03:35 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

Or Drug-dealer.

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Graham

2021-04-02 14:44:05 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-02 18:16:21 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

To be fair, I didn't write any of the above.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Snidely

2021-04-04 17:26:28 UTC

Kerr-Mudd,John suggested that ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

To be fair, I didn't write any of the above.

To be fair, even though the attribution was trimmed, the leaving-in of
the signature seems to allow correct authorship to be inferred.

-d

--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.

Sam Plusnet

2021-04-02 19:09:25 UTC

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

Here, Subaru seem to be the preferred vehicle for boy racers who like
brightly coloured brake-calipers, and adding coloured lighting to
various parts of the car.
The very powerful sub-woofer in the boot almost goes without saying.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

Tony Cooper

2021-04-02 19:43:56 UTC

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-02 20:33:03 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

Another difference with Europe.
In these parts cars need to have a Euro type aproval.
Modifying it in ways that make it significantly different is illegal.
(such as producing more noise pollution)

Owners who do so may get fined, and their cars may be impounded.
And yes, this is not a theoretical possibility,
despite there being a grey area,

Jan

PS A notorious grey area is speed modding.
Fast German cars are capable of more than 250 km/h
but they are limited in software to 250 km/h.
Of course some people will 'upgrade' the software to go faster.
If caught at 250+ it is the end of the car.

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-02 22:53:13 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

Another difference with Europe.
In these parts cars need to have a Euro type aproval.
Modifying it in ways that make it significantly different is illegal.
(such as producing more noise pollution)

I'm sure there are limits to noise and other things here, but they're
probably less stringent than in Europe, and probably not enforced much
in neighborhoods where many people can't afford to fix broken mufflers.

Among the better off, the muffler sound can be /very important/ to boy
racers of all ages. A quality called "throaty" is desirable.

Post by J. J. Lodder
Owners who do so may get fined, and their cars may be impounded.
And yes, this is not a theoretical possibility,
despite there being a grey area,
Jan
PS A notorious grey area is speed modding.
Fast German cars are capable of more than 250 km/h
but they are limited in software to 250 km/h.
Of course some people will 'upgrade' the software to go faster.
If caught at 250+ it is the end of the car.

The phrase here is "street-legal". You can own the car, but you
may not be allowed to drive it (except on a race track).

--
Jerry Friedman

Garrett Wollman

2021-04-02 21:05:43 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
Here, Subaru seem to be the preferred vehicle for boy racers who like
brightly coloured brake-calipers, and adding coloured lighting to
various parts of the car.
The very powerful sub-woofer in the boot almost goes without saying.

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

Specifically a Honda Civic in one of the "sport/performance" trims
(e.g., Si or Type R), if it's anything like up here. Sometimes
they'll buy counterfeit performance badging to glue onto their
cheaper/used trims, especially the "R" which has not always been sold
in the US.

-GAWollman

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-02 23:00:29 UTC

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I'll have to pay more attention, although identifying cars isn't important
the way identifying birds is. I see youngsters in Mustangs here now and
then. However, in these parts boys with fragile egos seem to be more
likely to have monster trucks.

I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to show off
your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on display.

--
Jerry Friedman is still looking for a semi with "super single" tires.

Stoat

2021-04-03 03:45:45 UTC

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I'll have to pay more attention, although identifying cars isn't important
the way identifying birds is. I see youngsters in Mustangs here now and
then. However, in these parts boys with fragile egos seem to be more
likely to have monster trucks.
I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to show off
your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on display.

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

--brian

--
Wellington
New Zealand

Tony Cooper

2021-04-03 13:21:50 UTC

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I'll have to pay more attention, although identifying cars isn't important
the way identifying birds is. I see youngsters in Mustangs here now and
then. However, in these parts boys with fragile egos seem to be more
likely to have monster trucks.
I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to show off
your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on display.

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

In this context, a car. Lowriders are modified so the chassis is
lowered so there is very little clearance between the body and the
ground. Some modifications include a hydraulic system that allows the
the chassis to be raised or lowered according to driving conditions.

It's unusual to see a lowrider that does not include a custom paint
job, flashy wheel rims, and some other external modification like LED
undercarriage lighting.

In my area - based on my own observations but no supporting data - it
is usually an Hispanic or African American that owns and drives a
lowrider. The white person who modifies a vehicle usually does the
opposite: raise the chassis (usually a pickup truck or Jeep) so it
almost requires a step-ladder to get in the cab.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-03 14:03:52 UTC

...

I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to show off
your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on display.

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

Originally according to legal conditions--you could get a ticket for having
too low a clearance, and probably some white police officers in East
L. A. were happy to give chicano zoot-suiters tickets, so people put in
"hydros" so they could make their cars street-legal on short notice. Now
it's more to show off one's car's ability to hop.

I don't know what the law is here in New Mexico, but my town bills itself
(perhaps not quite accurately) as the lowrider capital of the world, and I
imagine you'd have to get the cops very, very angry at you to get a ticket
for low clearance.

It's unusual to see a lowrider that does not include a custom paint
job, flashy wheel rims, and some other external modification like LED
undercarriage lighting.

Fancy upholstery is also good, and a small steering wheel, possibly
made of welded chain.

When I moved here in '94, I still occasionally saw lowriders without
those enhancements, even "primer gray". Rims were the top priority.
But now because of speed bumps and probably other things,
lowriding is mostly a hobby for people who have other vehicles for
normal use and only take their customized cars out for display.

In my area - based on my own observations but no supporting data - it
is usually an Hispanic or African American that owns and drives a
lowrider. The white person who modifies a vehicle usually does the
opposite: raise the chassis (usually a pickup truck or Jeep) so it
almost requires a step-ladder to get in the cab.

Which makes it what I referred to, with some exaggeration, as a monster
truck.

--
Jerry Friedman

Ken Blake

2021-04-03 16:19:00 UTC

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I'll have to pay more attention, although identifying cars isn't important
the way identifying birds is. I see youngsters in Mustangs here now and
then. However, in these parts boys with fragile egos seem to be more
likely to have monster trucks.
I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to show off
your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on display.

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

In this context, a car. Lowriders are modified so the chassis is
lowered so there is very little clearance between the body and the
ground. Some modifications include a hydraulic system that allows the
the chassis to be raised or lowered according to driving conditions.
It's unusual to see a lowrider that does not include a custom paint
job, flashy wheel rims, and some other external modification like LED
undercarriage lighting.
In my area - based on my own observations but no supporting data - it
is usually an Hispanic or African American that owns and drives a
lowrider. The white person who modifies a vehicle usually does the
opposite: raise the chassis (usually a pickup truck or Jeep) so it
almost requires a step-ladder to get in the cab.

And so the driver of the vehicle behind him has his vision of what's
going on on the road greatly impaired. If I had my way, doing that would
be illegal.

--
Ken

Tony Cooper

2021-04-03 16:39:50 UTC

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I'll have to pay more attention, although identifying cars isn't important
the way identifying birds is. I see youngsters in Mustangs here now and
then. However, in these parts boys with fragile egos seem to be more
likely to have monster trucks.
I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to show off
your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on display.

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

In this context, a car. Lowriders are modified so the chassis is
lowered so there is very little clearance between the body and the
ground. Some modifications include a hydraulic system that allows the
the chassis to be raised or lowered according to driving conditions.
It's unusual to see a lowrider that does not include a custom paint
job, flashy wheel rims, and some other external modification like LED
undercarriage lighting.
In my area - based on my own observations but no supporting data - it
is usually an Hispanic or African American that owns and drives a
lowrider. The white person who modifies a vehicle usually does the
opposite: raise the chassis (usually a pickup truck or Jeep) so it
almost requires a step-ladder to get in the cab.

And so the driver of the vehicle behind him has his vision of what's
going on on the road greatly impaired. If I had my way, doing that would
be illegal.

I once saw a high school girl in a long sheath dress try to get into
her boyfriend's raised pickup truck. Finally, he came around to her
side and lifted her in.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

musika

2021-04-03 16:53:22 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
In my area - based on my own observations but no supporting data - it
is usually an Hispanic or African American that owns and drives a
lowrider. The white person who modifies a vehicle usually does the
opposite: raise the chassis (usually a pickup truck or Jeep) so it
almost requires a step-ladder to get in the cab.

And so the driver of the vehicle behind him has his vision of what's
going on on the road greatly impaired. If I had my way, doing that would
be illegal.

Yeah, get rid of all lorries and buses while we're at it.

--
Ray
UK

Ken Blake

2021-04-03 17:14:04 UTC

Post by musika

And so the driver of the vehicle behind him has his vision of what's
going on on the road greatly impaired. If I had my way, doing that would
be illegal.

Yeah, get rid of all lorries and buses while we're at it.

If there were a reasonable way to do that, I'd be in favor of that too.
But I don't know a way, so all I can suggest is reducing the number of
vision-blocking vehicles, not completely eliminating them.

--
Ken

Sam Plusnet

2021-04-03 19:04:10 UTC

And so the driver of the vehicle behind him has his vision of what's
going on on the road greatly impaired. If I had my way, doing that would
be illegal.

That driver in front of you is so concerned with road safety he (isn't
it always a he?) has ensured that he can see over _any_ vehicle in front
of him[1].

All you have to do is make sure your vehicle is modified so that you can
see over him.

[1] With the possible exception of a double-decker bus.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

Peter Moylan

2021-04-04 00:20:14 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
In my area - based on my own observations but no supporting data -
it is usually an Hispanic or African American that owns and drives
a lowrider. The white person who modifies a vehicle usually does
the opposite: raise the chassis (usually a pickup truck or Jeep)
so it almost requires a step-ladder to get in the cab.

And so the driver of the vehicle behind him has his vision of what's
going on on the road greatly impaired. If I had my way, doing that
would be illegal.

I have impaired vision anyway because of the popularity of suburban
assault vehicles.

Being behind a high vehicle doesn't particularly bother me. The big
problem for me is being beside one. When I'm on a road with two or more
lanes in my direction - and I drive on many such - and I'm trying to
enter an intersection or roundabout, I can almost guarantee that an SUV
will pull up beside me and block my view. Trucks don't cause that
problem because truck drivers almost always stay in the left lane, but
SUV drivers always prefer to stay in the lane that will maximise their
inconvenience to everyone else.

The other place where this can be a problem is when I'm backing out of a
supermarket parking lot. I have to ease out very cautiously when the
high cars on both sides block my view.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-04 05:27:05 UTC

On Saturday, April 3, 2021 at 7:20:21 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
...

Post by Peter Moylan
I have impaired vision anyway because of the popularity of suburban
assault vehicles.
Being behind a high vehicle doesn't particularly bother me. The big
problem for me is being beside one. When I'm on a road with two or more
lanes in my direction - and I drive on many such - and I'm trying to
enter an intersection or roundabout, I can almost guarantee that an SUV
will pull up beside me and block my view. Trucks don't cause that
problem because truck drivers almost always stay in the left lane, but
SUV drivers always prefer to stay in the lane that will maximise their
inconvenience to everyone else.

In that situation, I assume that anything I'd need a view of will hit the
SUV first, and the latter won't hit me very hard, if at all.

Post by Peter Moylan
The other place where this can be a problem is when I'm backing out of a
supermarket parking lot. I have to ease out very cautiously when the
high cars on both sides block my view.

One could back into the space and pull out. I usually don't, but one could.

Do Australians then say "back out", as Americans do, instead of "reverse
out", as I believe the British do? And does "pull out" travel?

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2021-04-04 04:49:32 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Peter Moylan
I have impaired vision anyway because of the popularity of
suburban assault vehicles.
Being behind a high vehicle doesn't particularly bother me. The
big problem for me is being beside one. When I'm on a road with two
or more lanes in my direction - and I drive on many such - and I'm
trying to enter an intersection or roundabout, I can almost
guarantee that an SUV will pull up beside me and block my view.
Trucks don't cause that problem because truck drivers almost always
stay in the left lane, but SUV drivers always prefer to stay in the
lane that will maximise their inconvenience to everyone else.

In that situation, I assume that anything I'd need a view of will hit
the SUV first, and the latter won't hit me very hard, if at all.

Mostly that works, but sometimes the SUV accelerates hard to reveal
another car that just misses it. I'm not in the habit of burning rubber
in those cases, but some drivers are, and there's not always enough
advance information to know whether you're going to stay in the bigger
car's shadow.

Post by Peter Moylan
The other place where this can be a problem is when I'm backing out
of a supermarket parking lot. I have to ease out very cautiously
when the high cars on both sides block my view.

One could back into the space and pull out. I usually don't, but one could.
Do Australians then say "back out", as Americans do, instead of
"reverse out", as I believe the British do? And does "pull out"
travel?

For me "reverse out" and "back out" are equally good.

"Pull out" doesn't work for me in that situation, and it vaguely hints
at coitus interruptus. Strangely, though, I can pull out into the
traffic when I'm parked parallel to the kerb. Just not when a turn is
implied.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Graham

2021-04-04 18:33:41 UTC

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Peter Moylan
I have impaired vision anyway because of the popularity of
suburban assault vehicles.
Being behind a high vehicle doesn't particularly bother me. The
big problem for me is being beside one. When I'm on a road with two
or more lanes in my direction - and I drive on many such - and I'm
trying to enter an intersection or roundabout, I can almost
guarantee that an SUV will pull up beside me and block my view.
Trucks don't cause that problem because truck drivers almost always
stay in the left lane, but SUV drivers always prefer to stay in the
lane that will maximise their inconvenience to everyone else.

In that situation, I assume that anything I'd need a view of will hit
the SUV first, and the latter won't hit me very hard, if at all.

4WD SUVs are ideal for winter driving here. However, many drivers think
that the car's traction in icy conditions also applies to its ability to
stop. So after the first snowfall, the majority of vehicles "in the
ditch" are SUVs.

Peter T. Daniels

2021-04-03 14:02:12 UTC

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

Both. Context reveals which is intended here.

Chrysi Cat

2021-04-04 03:24:37 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

Both. Context reveals which is intended here.

I think you just got whooshed.

Jerry may or may not have been suggesting that both types were on
display, considering the type of girl who follows the type of guy who
tends to operate low-riders.

Stoat was almost CERTAINLY suggesting both types were as a joke.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-04 05:20:57 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

Both. Context reveals which is intended here.

I think you just got whooshed.
Jerry may or may not have been suggesting that both types were on
display, considering the type of girl who follows the type of guy who
tends to operate low-riders.

From what I saw yesterday, the typical driver was graying pot-bellied guy
with his wife in the passenger seat and the kids in the back. There are
young men with lowriders, though.

By the way, today I parked in the same lot as a jacked-up Chevy
sports or "sports" car with a custom paint job, red with some black
(but no metallic flake etc.) The driver appeared to be a grandpa
racer.

Post by Chrysi Cat
Stoat was almost CERTAINLY suggesting both types were as a joke.

Or at least wasn't trying too hard to look for clues in the context.

--
Jerry Friedman

Tony Cooper

2021-04-04 14:29:22 UTC

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 07:11:54 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Forgive my ignorance, but does "lowrider" refer to cars or jeans?

Both. Context reveals which is intended here.

I think you just got whooshed.

Hardly.
Context reveals that he was talking about the cars.
The reference to "antique" confirms.

Post by Chrysi Cat
Jerry may or may not have been suggesting that both types were on
display, considering the type of girl who follows the type of guy who
tends to operate low-riders.

Explain how anyone outside the car can see, or gawk at, the jeans
being worn by the driver?
I assume both the drivers and the jeans-wearers are male. Is "low-riders"
some sort of feminine fashion statement?

You've not heard of the "whale-tail" look?

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-03 09:54:14 UTC

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 23:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman

Post by Sam Plusnet
Here, Subaru seem to be the preferred vehicle for boy racers who
like brightly coloured brake-calipers, and adding coloured lighting
to various parts of the car.
The very powerful sub-woofer in the boot almost goes without saying.

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I'll have to pay more attention, although identifying cars isn't
important the way identifying birds is. I see youngsters in Mustangs
here now and then. However, in these parts boys with fragile egos
seem to be more likely to have monster trucks.
I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to
show off your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on
display.

Praying for a lack of collisions?

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-03 13:48:44 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 23:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman

...

I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to
show off your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on
display.

Praying for a lack of collisions?

If so, it didn't work. There was an accident at the busiest intersection,
and traffic was backed up for about a mile. I took alternate routes.

--
Jerry Friedman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-04-03 17:33:39 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 23:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman

...

I just got back from some errands. In my town, Good Friday is a
traditional day of fasting, prayer, penance, and driving around to
show off your lowrider or antique. Some impressive ones were on
display.

In my town Good Friday is an ordinary working day (if anything is
ordinary in these days of Covid-19) like any other. Easter Monday, on
the other hand, is a holiday. Very strange.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Praying for a lack of collisions?

If so, it didn't work. There was an accident at the busiest intersection,
and traffic was backed up for about a mile. I took alternate routes.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

charles

2021-04-03 08:28:35 UTC

The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I had a colleague, in our pennyless days, who'd just got himeslf a new (to
him) car amd was on the phone to insure it. He was worried that the broker
miht think t was a sports version and said "it's only an SL, you know what
that means?" "Yes, pseudo-luxurious."

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Peter Moylan

2021-04-03 04:56:57 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
The car of choice for those in this area is a Honda. Add loud
mufflers to the list

I once got a hole in my muffler, which of course produced a horrible
noise. At the muffler replacement place, I mentioned to the owner that I
had been nervous driving over there, expecting to be arrested at any
time. His comment: "There are people who pay me to get a noise like yours."

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-04-03 09:31:13 UTC

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

My wife had a Subaru when we were first married, but she wasn't a girl
racer: it was about the simplest car you could buy in Chile at the
time. I had a Ford Escort, so for a while we were a two-car family.
However, the two cars never met, being separated by thousands of km of
ocean.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-03 09:52:31 UTC

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

My dad had a Subaru *before* they were cool. The full monty woofer was
used to round up (not roundup) sheep.

Lower down the valley it's still souped up Fiestas.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Quinn C

2021-04-03 15:10:34 UTC

Post by Graham
30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945

Garrett Wollman

2021-04-04 03:41:15 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.

-GAWollman

[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-04 08:29:31 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.

In these parts the big AWD Subarus were popular
with the owners of the notorious caravans,

Jan

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2021-04-04 09:37:55 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.
-GAWollman
[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

The Subaru that my wife had was a very small car -- barely room for
four people, no room for luggage, and certainly not suitable for snow
-- with very little resemblance to the cars that an image search for
"Subaru" will yield. Just one colour (brown). In the late 1980s it must
have been the commonest car in Chile.

--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

pensive hamster

2021-04-04 11:13:02 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.
[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

Chryslers are bigger, if the B-52's are to be believed. (I'm not
familiar with American cars, so I can't really comment on the type
of person who might favour a Chrysler.)

https://genius.com/The-b-52s-love-shack-lyrics

I got me a car, it's as big as a whale
And we're headin' on down to the love shack
I got me a Chrysler, it seats about twenty
So hurry up and bring your jukebox money

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-04 15:49:54 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.
[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

Chryslers are bigger, if the B-52's are to be believed. (I'm not
familiar with American cars, so I can't really comment on the type
of person who might favour a Chrysler.)
https://genius.com/The-b-52s-love-shack-lyrics
I got me a car, it's as big as a whale
And we're headin' on down to the love shack
I got me a Chrysler, it seats about twenty
So hurry up and bring your jukebox money

Chrysler was and probably still is a more upscale brand than Plymouth and
Dodge from the same company. Their big cars were typical of the American
market. I'm not sure there were ever small cars with the Chrysler brand.

--
Jerry Friedman

Ken Blake

2021-04-04 16:38:25 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.
[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

Chryslers are bigger, if the B-52's are to be believed. (I'm not
familiar with American cars, so I can't really comment on the type
of person who might favour a Chrysler.)
https://genius.com/The-b-52s-love-shack-lyrics
I got me a car, it's as big as a whale
And we're headin' on down to the love shack
I got me a Chrysler, it seats about twenty
So hurry up and bring your jukebox money

Chrysler was and probably still is a more upscale brand than Plymouth and
Dodge from the same company.

Still is, as far as I know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Their big cars were typical of the American
market. I'm not sure there were ever small cars with the Chrysler brand.

There's the Chrysler PT Cruiser--a top contender for the world's ugliest
car, in my opinion.

--
Ken

Chrysi Cat

2021-04-04 18:23:19 UTC

On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 10:38:00 AM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden
wrote: > On 2021-04-04 03:41:15 +0000, Garrett Wollman said: > >
to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a > >> good chance
of snow on the roads several months a year. > > > > Yeah, the
people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up > > now
have Subarus. > >

[1] As a class, not specific individuals. > > The Subaru that my

wife had was a very small car -- barely room for > four people, no
room for luggage, and certainly not suitable for snow > -- with very
little resemblance to the cars that an image search for > "Subaru"
will yield. Just one colour (brown). In the late 1980s it must > have
been the commonest car in Chile.
Chryslers are bigger, if the B-52's are to be believed. (I'm not
familiar with American cars, so I can't really comment on the type of
person who might favour a Chrysler.)
https://genius.com/The-b-52s-love-shack-lyrics
I got me a car, it's as big as a whale And we're headin' on down to
the love shack I got me a Chrysler, it seats about twenty So hurry up
and bring your jukebox money

Chrysler was and probably still is a more upscale brand than Plymouth and
Dodge from the same company.

Still is, as far as I know.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Their big cars were typical of the American
market. I'm not sure there were ever small cars with the Chrysler brand.

There's the Chrysler PT Cruiser--a top contender for the world's ugliest
car, in my opinion.

And also originally designed as a Plymouth, but by the time it was
nearing release, it was an open secret that the Plymouth make was
destined for extinction, and they didn't want a possible "halo car" to
save it. I'm not sure *why*, given these facts, they still made the
Prowler a Plymouth. It COULD have been because the original Prowler
concept car was badged that way, but then again, so was the PT Cruiser.

And I'm not kidding about "possible 'halo car'". The PT was one of the
most hyped vehicles of its time period, as much because of its
versatility without OFFICIALLY being a minivan as anything else. I
test-drove one myself and it evoked memories of the Colt Vista (a
rebadged and unchanged Mitsubishi Chariot) that had been the first car I
had permanent access to. Might have even heeled over a little less in
tight-radius cornering. I also *liked* the retro styling and I was in
the age group targeted by Chrysler. To this day, I can't call it ugly in
the way I can a Pontiac Aztek or most post-2010 Toyotas that aren't Prius.

Unfortunately, it may have had even worse build quality THAN the
Chariot, which was so badly designed that, six years after we'd bought
it new and about four months into my having my license, I tried to
activate the (button-operated, part-time) four-wheel-drive mode and
instead blew several fuses; we never COULD get that shift re-enabled.
And of course the other issue (I think on both) is ALSO related to the
shifter--I think it had a Diamond Star 5-speed manual closely related to
the one on the Chariot, and OURS on that car threw a gear about every
60k miles. And that is ignoring the way that PTs have a habit of
catching fire while unattended and turned off for some reason no one has
figured out yet. So it's a bad car NOW, but no one knew it was then, and
there's a reason that Chevy somewhat tried to ape the idea of "doesn't
look like it was built in this century" with the HHR and SSR.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

J. J. Lodder

2021-04-04 12:34:54 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.
-GAWollman
[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

It was probably an example of a 'Kei-car'.
This was a Japanese class of small city cars,
with specs set by the government.
(designed to cope with post war scarcity of everything)
They gradually grew a bit, but the most common ones
were limited to 3m length, and something like a 500 cc engine.
(maybe 3.40m, 700 cc for modern ones)

Used ones are very much in demand, and hard to find.
Dealers may have a waiting list.
There will always be people who just want a car,
not the kind of oversize gadget loaded thing that you can buy new,

Jan

Quinn C

2021-04-04 14:22:17 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.
-GAWollman
[1] As a class, not specific individuals.

It was probably an example of a 'Kei-car'.
This was a Japanese class of small city cars,
with specs set by the government.
(designed to cope with post war scarcity of everything)
They gradually grew a bit, but the most common ones
were limited to 3m length, and something like a 500 cc engine.
(maybe 3.40m, 700 cc for modern ones)
Used ones are very much in demand, and hard to find.
Dealers may have a waiting list.
There will always be people who just want a car,
not the kind of oversize gadget loaded thing that you can buy new,

The selling point is that tax and insurance are considerably lower in
Japan, though, which doesn't translate as well to other countries. Even
in Japan, these savings were significantly curtailed in 2014, I just
read.

The Japanese genius is that they can even make vans and trucks within
those specifications.

A small Subaru can be ("really") a Daihatsu.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Ken Blake

2021-04-04 16:34:06 UTC

Post by Quinn C
Hm - the reason to buy a Subaru may be different where there's not a
good chance of snow on the roads several months a year.

Yeah, the people[1] in Vermont who had Volvo 750s when I was growing up
now have Subarus.

I've never owned a Volvo 750, but I owned a 544, two 144s, and a 145.
Never a Subaru either.

I've never lived in Vermont, so I guess that's why.

--
Ken

Chrysi Cat

2021-04-04 03:20:03 UTC

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.
-GAWollman

30+ years ago, Volvo was the car of choice for teachers, uni profs,
accountants, doctors and such.
Now they choose Subaru.

I think BOTH apply around here.

A WRX is still one of the cheapest performance models around, and one of
the most fuel-efficient when you AREN'T winding the hell out of the
engine. That was already true 18 years ago as well, when it was the
other model I considered as I was shopping for my (still-current) Matrix
XRS. They're still beloved by street racers with a thing for loud music,
in part because the whole "efficient when not being wound out" thing
means that they might have a few extra bucks to spend ON the music.

On the other hand, MOST Subarus are Foresters or Outbacks, with a few
"normal Imprezas" sprinkled in (but not as many as you might think,
because very few staid people want their car to be able to be mistaken,
at first glance, for a punk-rocket).

And those, of course, are mainly owned by public servants, because the
all-wheel drive means theyll get to work in all kinds of weather--

--and also "mainly owned by public servants" because they ARE
all-wheel-drive, and light duty at that--so that they aren't nearly as
desirable for the dedicated off-roaders that are the OTHER part of
"performance culture" in Colorado.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Snidely

2021-04-04 17:24:43 UTC

On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 22:28:40 GMT in accordance with the GPS constellation,

Post by Garrett Wollman
Yes, I think stereotypes here go with vehicle classes or makes rather
than specific models -- except for the Toyota Prius; there is
definitely a stereotype of Prius drivers. Makes which have associated
stereotypes include Tesla (techbro assholes), BMW (finance assholes,
surgeons, and dentists),

Or Drug-dealer.

The trim-meister disappoints me -- forgetting to fix the chevrons when

Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

Post by Garrett Wollman
women), and various other luxury-car lines.

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

Anders D. Nygaard

2021-04-02 11:54:55 UTC

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
women),

Huh?

Post by Garrett Wollman
and various other luxury-car lines.

/Anders, Denmark

Kerr-Mudd,John

2021-04-02 12:04:38 UTC

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 11:54:55 GMT, "Anders D. Nygaard"

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
women),

Huh?

School run.

Post by Garrett Wollman
and various other luxury-car lines.

/Anders, Denmark

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

musika

2021-04-02 12:05:39 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Yes, I think stereotypes here go with vehicle classes or makes
rather than specific models -- except for the Toyota Prius; there
is definitely a stereotype of Prius drivers. Makes which have
associated stereotypes include Tesla (techbro assholes),
BMW (finance assholes, surgeons, and dentists),

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

What's the difference between a hedgehog and a Volvo?
A hedgehog has the pricks on the outside.

--
Ray
UK

Stefan Ram

2021-04-02 13:03:57 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Sharona Fleming, the first assistant of Adrian Monk in the
TV series "Monk" (US, 2002), was driving a Volvo. According
to one web page, a 1990 Volvo 740 GLE Wagon with about
100,000 miles, but she had no idea how to pay a $900 repair.

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-02 13:56:15 UTC

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
women),

Huh?

Real Men care about speed and looks, not safety.

On this subject, I once heard someone say a Lexus was a "bitch car"
that no man would drive unless he was gay or overly influenced by
his wife or girlfriend. People are weird.

Post by Garrett Wollman
and various other luxury-car lines.

--
Jerry Friedman

Lewis

2021-04-02 15:10:36 UTC

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
women),

Huh?

Real Men care about speed and looks, not safety.
On this subject, I once heard someone say a Lexus was a "bitch car"
that no man would drive unless he was gay or overly influenced by
his wife or girlfriend. People are weird.

And some men are very very fragile about the cars they and others drive.
It is certainly part of the reason I pay nearly no attention to cars at
all.

4 wheels? Seatbelts? Run OK? AC and heater work? Nifty. That's all I
need.

--
If we get through this alive I'll meet you next week same place same
time

charles

2021-04-02 15:42:24 UTC

Post by Lewis

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
women),

Huh?

Real Men care about speed and looks, not safety.
On this subject, I once heard someone say a Lexus was a "bitch car"
that no man would drive unless he was gay or overly influenced by
his wife or girlfriend. People are weird.

And some men are very very fragile about the cars they and others drive.
It is certainly part of the reason I pay nearly no attention to cars at
all.
4 wheels? Seatbelts? Run OK? AC and heater work? Nifty. That's all I
need.

and will it carry all the things I might want to carry?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Lewis

2021-04-02 19:44:24 UTC

Post by charles

Post by Lewis

Here, young Arab men with heavy gold chains.

Post by Garrett Wollman
Volvo (safety-conscious upper-middle-class

With you so far ...

Post by Garrett Wollman
women),

Huh?

Real Men care about speed and looks, not safety.
On this subject, I once heard someone say a Lexus was a "bitch car"
that no man would drive unless he was gay or overly influenced by
his wife or girlfriend. People are weird.

And some men are very very fragile about the cars they and others drive.
It is certainly part of the reason I pay nearly no attention to cars at
all.
4 wheels? Seatbelts? Run OK? AC and heater work? Nifty. That's all I
need.

and will it carry all the things I might want to carry?

The only thing my car needs to carry is a couple of bags of groceries
and myself.

--
The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music.

Madhu

2021-04-02 12:40:13 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

The prius was after my time, but volvo had traction even then.
Then there were the indian h1bs with their first toyota i forget if it
was the camry or the corolla
and subarus were associated with lesbians

Garrett Wollman

2021-04-02 16:55:32 UTC

Post by Madhu
The prius was after my time, but volvo had traction even then.
Then there were the indian h1bs with their first toyota i forget if it
was the camry or the corolla
and subarus were associated with lesbians

It is probably true that there are proportionally more Subarus
registered in Northampton than in Massachusetts as a whole, although I
don't think that's necessarily the, um, explanatory factor.

-GAWollman

Jerry Friedman

2021-04-02 13:53:18 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 13:40:41 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

Yes, I think stereotypes here go with vehicle classes or makes rather
than specific models -- except for the Toyota Prius; there is
definitely a stereotype of Prius drivers.

...

Is that why, when I mentioned in class that I drove a Prius, one of my students
muttered, "Tree-hugging dirt-worshipper"?

--
Jerry Friedman

Lewis

2021-04-02 00:33:41 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I don't think there's a type-of-vehicle comparable usage in the US. We
do refer to SUVs as typical vehicles for suburbanites, but no
particular maker of the SUV.

I have heard "Jaghole" for the stereotypical middle-aged Jaguar driving
asshole and some other that I cannot manage to drag forward right now,
most referring to brands or models of sports cars. I know there was one
for fans of Beemers as well, but that was 40 years ago and I care even
less about cars than I do about sports or famous republicans, so I've
long forgotten that one.

I know there was on for owners of Escalades that I cannot remember at
all, but I suspect it may have been racist.

And there were a lot of racist nicknames for some cars when I was a kid,
certainly the El Camino and the Nova had derogatory nicknames in
California's central valley in the early 80s.

--
Take my hand and I'll show you what was and will be.

Snidely

2021-04-04 17:21:11 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
The "station wagon" was the suburbanite vehicle, then the van
(Plymouth Voyager/Dodge Caravan, etc)

No, the *minivan*, pioneered by those two labels, but which now inclues
the Toyota Sienna and the Honda Odyssey. Various makers have a smaller
presence, such as the Mazda MPV.

A *van* is the full-sized vehicle on a heavier chassis, often used for
commercial purposes, or for carpools, or hippy shag wagons.

Post by Tony Cooper
then the SUV.

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

pensive hamster

2021-04-02 12:33:12 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_man
Essex man and Mondeo man are stereotypical figures which were
popularised in 1990s England.
....
"Mondeo man" was identified as the sort of voter the Labour Party
needed to attract to win the election in 1997.
....
Mondeo man
The concept of the "Mondeo man" was popularised by a phrase used by
then Leader of the Labour Party, Tony Blair at the Labour Party
Conference in October 1996. He recalled a Ford Sierra owner he had
canvassed in the Midlands whilst out campaigning for the 1992
general election. The man was a self-employed electrician, who Blair
met while the man was polishing his car at the weekend, and told
Blair that he was an ex-Labour voter who had bought his council
house, owned his own car, and wondered what the Labour Party had to
offer him given the party's history of raising taxes and mortgage
{Tony Blair:}
His dad voted Labour, he said. He used to vote Labour, too. But
he'd bought his own house now. He'd set up his own business. He
was doing very nicely. "So I've become a Tory" he said. In that
moment, he crystallised for me the basis of our failure... His
instincts were to get on in life. And he thought our instincts
were to stop him. But that was never our history or our purpose.
Although that man had a Ford Sierra that model had been replaced by the
Ford Mondeo a few years earlier.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mondeo-man
Mondeo Man in British English
noun
British informal
a middle-class man, seen as typically driving a Ford Mondeo and
preferring to do this rather than use public transport

Slightly more recently, there is also Motorway man:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorway_man#Description

'The Motorway Man is seen as the successor to both the Essex Man
and the Mondeo Man, who respectively backed Margaret Thatcher
during the 1980s and Tony Blair during the 1990s.[2] According to an
article in The Observer from February 2010, the term "Motorway man"
has been used to describe "childless, youngish voters who live in
modern homes close to the main motorway networks, the less
environmentally attractive pockets of England where planning
permission for new developments is often easier to obtain."[3]

'On 22 January 2010, the Financial Times defined Motorway man
as "aspirational, materialistic and car dependent."[4] In terms of
occupation, Motorway man might be a regional sales manager,
sales rep or production manager; a person who needs to be near
a motorway to get around the country.[1] '

In the "See also" section at the end of that WP article, there is a list
of some of the other ways of classifying voter demographics:

Essex man
Worcester woman
Holby City woman
Soccer mom
Reagan Democrat
Squeezed middle
Yuppie
Workington man

Sam Plusnet

2021-03-31 22:00:07 UTC

I recall driving a Mondeo shortly after it was "launched" (an
inappropriate term if ever there was one) and was driving in lane 2 on a
motorway, but suddenly found myself in lane 3 at the behest of a gust of
wind.
It was also discovered that a minor 'bump' would probably make the
vehicle a write-off.
I believe they did manage to fix both problems, but that was my only
experience of driving one.

--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK

Lewis

2021-03-31 22:10:28 UTC

I recall driving a Mondeo shortly after it was "launched" (an
inappropriate term if ever there was one)

Many things other than ships are launched. In fact, the origin of the
word has nothing to do with ships at all, but with throwing, which
sound like it is probably very appropriate for the Mondeo.

--
If you were in charge, how would the Foo Fighters fix Fillory?

Bebercito

2021-04-01 00:07:47 UTC