Josquin anniversary

[Todd Michel McComb]

So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....

Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....

This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.

I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

[number_six]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

The cds I have with music by this composer are a fairly predictable array --

Pro Cantione Antiqua, Philip Pickett, La Nef, Piffaro and Ensemble Clement Janequin.

I'm not actively looking for more, but if a new release sets the early music world on fire, would probably give it a try.

[Mandryka]

Post by number_six

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

The cds I have with music by this composer are a fairly predictable array --
Pro Cantione Antiqua, Philip Pickett, La Nef, Piffaro and Ensemble Clement Janequin.
I'm not actively looking for more, but if a new release sets the early music world on fire, would probably give it a try.

Well I was in the Utrecht festival in 2017 when it was focused on music from Josquin’s time, and I must have seen more than half a dozen Josquin masses. All of them were performed with the emphasis on beautiful tone and fluid articulation and smooth polyphony and consonant cross relations, and equal temperament.

Bjorn Schmelzer, who was running the festival that year, avoided Josquin as far as I recall. Shame that!

I saw Giuseppe Maletto do a mass there and it was OK, but it didn’t take off. I haven’t had a chance to hear his new recording of motets properly yet, but just dipping in makes me think that I’ll enjoy the brass and the sound quality. I’ll give it some more attention this weekend.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka

Post by number_six

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

The cds I have with music by this composer are a fairly predictable array --
Pro Cantione Antiqua, Philip Pickett, La Nef, Piffaro and Ensemble Clement Janequin.
I'm not actively looking for more, but if a new release sets the early music world on fire, would probably give it a try.

Well I was in the Utrecht festival in 2017 when it was focused on music from Josquin’s time, and I must have seen more than half a dozen Josquin masses. All of them were performed with the emphasis on beautiful tone and fluid articulation and smooth polyphony and consonant cross relations, and equal temperament.
Bjorn Schmelzer, who was running the festival that year, avoided Josquin as far as I recall. Shame that!
I saw Giuseppe Maletto do a mass there and it was OK, but it didn’t take off. I haven’t had a chance to hear his new recording of motets properly yet, but just dipping in makes me think that I’ll enjoy the brass and the sound quality. I’ll give it some more attention this weekend.

As far as the music being left on the page is concerned, I’ll just mention that the more Josquin I hear the more I’m impressed by Orlando Consort’s motets recording, because of the tuning. The harmonies sound so much more interesting on that recording! And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

[Joe Markley]

Post by Mandryka
And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

Cappella Pratensis continues to do outstanding work--their recording of Josquin's Missa Ave Maris Stella is top-notch.

Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

[Mandryka]

The new Cantica Symphonia recording features a rarity, and a beaut -- Ecce tu pulchra est.

It also features nearly all of the Vultum Tuum cycle. I have another version of it, this time with a larger choir, on a recording by James O'Donnell.

I'm going to say something maybe naive about the Cantica Symphonia release. The first time I heard a Josquin concert in a real renaissance church I was gobsmacked by the sound. Sound -- tasty tangy complex sounds -- that's a major part of Josquin's art. The Cantica Symphonia disc capture a bit of that.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
The first time I heard a Josquin concert in a real renaissance
church I was gobsmacked by the sound. Sound -- tasty tangy complex
sounds -- that's a major part of Josquin's art. The Cantica
Symphonia disc capture a bit of that.

I agree that the acoustics of performance is another basic issue
with recordings of music from this era, compounding the other
difficulties. I try to be as accommodating on this point as possible,
since I'm usually fretting about other aspects. However, it does
sometimes bother me. Beauty Farm has tried various approaches on
acoustics, for instance, sometimes to dubious effect really, but
it's better than the "total haze" approach of some... actually their
most recent Gombert might be the best yet as far as balancing
acoustics. (I'd have reviewed that already, but I'm unsure whether
the audio problem is because of the review download or the original
production. Actually I hesitate to mention this in public, since
it may well be the former, and so not an association this double
album needs.... Awaiting word from the North American agent....)
That said, I agree, the new Cantica Syphonia disc has a good "sound."
I enjoy some of the tracks quite a bit. I didn't feel it really
challenged/expanded my view of Josquin, but I do enjoy what they've
done.

[Mandryka]

Post by Joe Markley

Post by Mandryka
And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

Cappella Pratensis continues to do outstanding work--their recording of Josquin's Missa Ave Maris Stella is top-notch.
Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

Yes but their a different animal than they were in the Rebecca Stewart days, IMO less interesting for all fact, undoubted, that their work is outstanding.

For what it's worth I saw them a few years ago sing Obrecht's Missa Maria Zart using some major new performing edition that they sponsored. The concert fell flat, and I'm not surprised that they haven't released a recording.

[Andrew Clarke]

Post by Joe Markley

Post by Mandryka
And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

Cappella Pratensis continues to do outstanding work--their recording of Josquin's Missa Ave Maris Stella is top-notch.

Joe, I've just looked at the CVs of the singers on the Cappella Pratensis website, and it is a sobering experience. All experts in their field, and how.

<https://www.cappellapratensis.nl/en/singers/>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
All of them were performed with the emphasis on beautiful tone and
fluid articulation and smooth polyphony and consonant cross
relations, and equal temperament.

For a while now, it seems that many Josquin performances are more
"conservative" than most anything being done for his contemporaries.

Post by Mandryka
Bjorn Schmelzer, who was running the festival that year, avoided
Josquin as far as I recall.

And I'm not sure why so many of the best groups seem to avoid
Josquin. It's not as if there is really a big body of recording
work that can't be topped.

So maybe this all changes next year....

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So maybe this all changes next year....

Yes maybe. If only Beauty Farm would do for Josquin what they did for Bauldeweyn.

[Mandryka]

Here's an interesting one. Missa Pange Lingue by Vocal Ensemble Cappella (Tetsuro Hanai)

[Todd Michel McComb]

If only Beauty Farm would do for Josquin what they did for Bauldeweyn.

I'd like to see Beauty Farm do for Josquin what they did for Gombert,
i.e. a double album of motets (if not two)!

Reauditioning the Orlando Consort motets album, a 1999 recording...
definitely an impressive attempt for the time, lots of precision
(although entirely mean-tone), but loses the plot regularly. Probably
still the best motet program (pace that the new Cantica Symphonia
is partly secular music)!

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

If only Beauty Farm would do for Josquin what they did for Bauldeweyn.

I'd like to see Beauty Farm do for Josquin what they did for Gombert,
i.e. a double album of motets (if not two)!
Reauditioning the Orlando Consort motets album, a 1999 recording...
definitely an impressive attempt for the time, lots of precision
(although entirely mean-tone), but loses the plot regularly. Probably
still the best motet program (pace that the new Cantica Symphonia
is partly secular music)!

I'm going to have to listen again to Hilliard's Josquin to see if they sing with non-equal temperament.

Rogers Covey Crump wrote a series of essays on tuning for the three "Conductus" CDs he was part of -- it was evidently something he was exploring and presumably he passed on his enthusiasm for this type of experimentation to Orlando Consort.

I note in passing that as far as I can see Gothic Voices did not record one single second of music by Josquin Des Prez -- have I missed something obvious?

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka
I note in passing that as far as I can see Gothic Voices did not
record one single second of music by Josquin Des Prez -- have I
missed something obvious?

Nothing obvious. I don't there's even a track, as you say. They
did a La Rue disc, but that's as close as it gets. Most of their
recordings are of considerably earlier music.
(And Rogers Covey Crump did a lot of his work on tuning with/via
Gothic Voices. The famous "first" Pythagorean recording being with
Parrott....)

Is that the Machaut mass?

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka

The famous "first" Pythagorean recording being with Parrott....

Is that the Machaut mass?

Right. And the first Machaut album from Gothic Voices wasn't in
Pythagorean.

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

"Josquin des Prez and His Musical Legacy: An Introductory Guide" (2013 book):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qf18p

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/gbmmsOGCizk

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tallis-scholars-josquin-des-pres-review-a-heavenly-album-zxcwljbpq

[Mandryka]

New recording from Dominique Visée of Josquin songs, it’s streaming on Qobuz

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Desprez-Septiesme-Livre-Chansons/dp/B08NF1PFX4/ref=sr_1_4?crid=6991WTPA00L9&dchild=1&keywords=josquin&qid=1610528631&s=music&sprefix=Josquin%2Caps%2C143&sr=1-4

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 01:05:01 -0800 (PST), Mandryka

New recording from Dominique Visée of Josquin songs, it’s streaming on Qobuz
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Desprez-Septiesme-Livre-Chansons/dp/B08NF1PFX4/ref=sr_1_4?crid=6991WTPA00L9&dchild=1&keywords=josquin&qid=1610528631&s=music&sprefix=Josquin%2Caps%2C143&sr=1-4

"Josquin Desprez: Septiesme livre de chansons" is also on Spotify.

[Todd Michel McComb]

New recording from Dominique Visse of Josquin songs, it's streaming
on Qobuz

I'll certainly hear this eventually, but it hasn't made its way to
me yet....

Could be interesting since they already have a Josquin album recorded
in 1988....

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

New recording from Dominique Visse of Josquin songs, it's streaming
on Qobuz

I'll certainly hear this eventually, but it hasn't made its way to
me yet....
Could be interesting since they already have a Josquin album recorded
in 1988....

Talking of things recorded twice by the same artists, what to you think of Beauty Farm's two recordings of Gombert's Media Vita? The first seems to me to use a more interesting tuning than the second, the second seems to me to be more about being in control.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
Talking of things recorded twice by the same artists, what to you
think of Beauty Farm's two recordings of Gombert's Media Vita? The
first seems to me to use a more interesting tuning than the second,
the second seems to me to be more about being in control.

I did review the new album. I like the new editions they are using,
and find them to be quite illuminating for the style of that
generation, particularly its elaboration to mass length. I agree,
though, that the first recording brings out more details of this
motet. The second comes off, consciously so I think, more as the
kernel of the larger work to be heard with it. The other motet is
one of their most striking tracks though.

[Ellie Ke]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western music
history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging with that
debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him to be the best of
his era myself, but did want to contextualize the anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending on
volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in this
group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of Josquin's
best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to this point.
Getting the understanding together AND getting the vocal technique
together has taken a long time. To this point, pace the other
conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the abstract/silly Kantian
or Platonic sense) has been left on the page -- so to speak. Some gets
through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for a
long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

Stumbled upon this discussion and thought I'd join, as I am among those
excited about the possibility of many new Josquin recordings... Mostly I
hope we get some good motet collections, which I like much more than the
masses - but also, in masses, we already have the Tetsuro Hanai complete
set, which, merely by virtue of adhering to Rebecca Stewart's 'modal
singing' idea (and I should note those recordings are much more 'modal,'
in the Stewartian sense, than the Tetsuro Hanai video linked below), is so
much more satisfying than current alternatives that it's hard to imagine
new mass recordings sustaining interest. Since contextualizing 'modal
singing' via Stewart's mini-manifesto (http://cantusmodalis.org/, on the
off chance you haven't read it), I've become hyper-aware of how little
other supposedly radical performance aesthetics (Beauty Farm,
Graindelavoix) actually challenge certain underlying assumptions around
vocal technique embedded in the generic/ahistorical 'early music voice'...
And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself is
working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due to Covid...

All that said, I, too, would be delighted with a Beauty Farm or a
Graindelavoix Josquin, which would be plenty enjoyable in their own right!

[Todd Michel McComb]

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself
is working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due
to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself
is working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due
to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

I like the Josquin she did on O Admirabile Comercium. I have another CD with quite a few motets called Missus est Gabriel Angelus, but in truth I’ve hardly listened to it. Will do soon.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself
is working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due
to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

I like the Josquin she did on O Admirabile Comercium. I have another CD with quite a few motets called Missus est Gabriel Angelus, but in truth I’ve hardly listened to it. Will do soon.

Some details about her new Josquin project here

https://fr-fr.facebook.com/Secondapratica/videos/this-is-one-of-dr-rebeccas-stewarts-first-choirbooks-containing-josquins-absolve/607763179695530/

[Ellie Ke]

Post by Mandryka

Post by Mandryka

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself is
working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

I like the Josquin she did on O Admirabile Comercium. I have another CD
with quite a few motets called Missus est Gabriel Angelus, but in truth
I’ve hardly listened to it. Will do soon.

Some details about her new Josquin project here
https://fr-fr.facebook.com/Secondapratica/videos/this-is-one-of-dr-

rebeccas-stewarts-first-choirbooks-containing-josquins-absolve/
607763179695530/

Thanks for linking this!
As for 'Missus est Gabriel Angelus' - that record and their 'Missa
Gaudeamus' record strike me more as early/rough attempts at formalizing a
new performance practice, and interest me mainly as curiosities. Outside
of O Admirabile Commercium, there are a couple excellent Josquin motets on
the Missa Lesse faire a mi record.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Some details about her [ Rebecca Stewart ] new Josquin project here
https://fr-fr.facebook.com/Secondapratica/videos/this-is-one-of-dr-rebeccas-stewarts-first-choirbooks-containing-josquins-absolve/607763179695530/

If I am reading a June comment right, there should be a new recording
soon? Of what, or where it will be released, I have no idea....

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Some details about her [ Rebecca Stewart ] new Josquin project here
https://fr-fr.facebook.com/Secondapratica/videos/this-is-one-of-dr-rebeccas-stewarts-first-choirbooks-containing-josquins-absolve/607763179695530/

If I am reading a June comment right, there should be a new recording
soon? Of what, or where it will be released, I have no idea....

Would love to go to this, but alas, too risky

https://oudemuziek.nl/agenda/alle-concerten-20212022/fom21002-cantus-modalis-seconda-prat-ca/27-aug-utrecht-2230/

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
https://oudemuziek.nl/agenda/alle-concerten-20212022/fom21002-cantus-modalis-seconda-prat-ca/27-aug-utrecht-2230/

The _Missa Mater patris_ should be a good piece for them....

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Mandryka
https://oudemuziek.nl/agenda/alle-concerten-20212022/fom21002-cantus-modalis-seconda-prat-ca/27-aug-utrecht-2230/

The _Missa Mater patris_ should be a good piece for them....

Indeed, I have a recording of them doing it which I think I took from YouTube. The Tallis Scholars CD has some wonderful moments in it.

[Mandryka]

http://josquin500.com/

[Mandryka]

Rebecca Stewart, Missa Matris Patris

https://www.amazon.com/Memoria-Mea-Rebecca-Stewart/dp/B099C8F91X

[cheregi]

Post by Mandryka
Rebecca Stewart, Missa Matris Patris
https://www.amazon.com/Memoria-Mea-Rebecca-Stewart/dp/B099C8F91X

Have you/anyone gotten a chance to hear this yet? I wasn't sure it would ever actually appear!

In the meantime I've discovered Rebecca Stewart's / Schola Cantorum Brabantiae's Machaut Messe de Nostre Dame studio recording, quite different from the live recording you sent me a long time ago on talkclassical, really 'rhetorical' and effective in a totally different way than my other favorite school of interpretation, the Peres and Schmelzer CDs...

Looking back on my earlier comments here as Ellie Ke, a little struck by how severely one-track-minded I was regarding Stewartian modality, even if basically my enthusiasm hasn't much waned...

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by cheregi

Post by Mandryka
Rebecca Stewart, Missa Matris Patris

Have you/anyone gotten a chance to hear this yet?

Supposedly releases in September. Carpe diem (the record label)
is on Bandcamp now, so perhaps a free & easy audition in a few
weeks....

[Mandryka]

Post by cheregi

Post by Mandryka
Rebecca Stewart, Missa Matris Patris

Have you/anyone gotten a chance to hear this yet?

Supposedly releases in September. Carpe diem (the record label)
is on Bandcamp now, so perhaps a free & easy audition in a few
weeks....

A couple of mass movements are on streaming now, qobuz and spotify.

[Mandryka]

Post by cheregi

Post by Mandryka
Rebecca Stewart, Missa Matris Patris

Have you/anyone gotten a chance to hear this yet?

Supposedly releases in September. Carpe diem (the record label)
is on Bandcamp now, so perhaps a free & easy audition in a few
weeks....

Now on spotify, qobuz etc.

[cheregi]

Post by Mandryka

Post by cheregi

Post by Mandryka
Rebecca Stewart, Missa Matris Patris

Have you/anyone gotten a chance to hear this yet?

Supposedly releases in September. Carpe diem (the record label)
is on Bandcamp now, so perhaps a free & easy audition in a few
weeks....

Now on spotify, qobuz etc.

And at almost the same time as the third of Eliane Radigue's Occam Ocean records, which strike me as very much related - what a pleasant coincidence.

This is the most hushed and static-feeling Nymphes des Bois I can remember hearing. Certainly communicates the feeling of 'In memoria'. Also though interesting to note, at the same time, more 'solidity', less 'ethereality', to the voices than in the old Cappella Pratensis recordings, I think. Presumably booklet notes would go into this, but does anyone know if the dispute over the authenticity of Missa Mater patris as a Josquin composition is entirely down to the un-Josquin-like style, or is there 'firmer' evidence?

[Todd Michel McComb]

... does anyone know if the dispute over the authenticity of Missa
Mater patris as a Josquin composition is entirely down to the
un-Josquin-like style, or is there 'firmer' evidence?

It's a style argument, and at this point, I'm pretty sure it's
Josquin.

[Todd Michel McComb]

I continue to be in awe of how thin the basis for knowledge about
history often turns out to be...

It's a good point, and there's something of a chicken & egg problem
in listening to Josquin, in terms of getting the scores right in
the first place, but as more & more of this music starts to sound
idiomatic in interpretation, I also start to feel a keen sense for
these dead men -- after all these decades -- and the many, many
notes they wrote. That part isn't ultimately all that thin.

[cheregi]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

I continue to be in awe of how thin the basis for knowledge about
history often turns out to be...

It's a good point, and there's something of a chicken & egg problem
in listening to Josquin, in terms of getting the scores right in
the first place, but as more & more of this music starts to sound
idiomatic in interpretation, I also start to feel a keen sense for
these dead men -- after all these decades -- and the many, many
notes they wrote. That part isn't ultimately all that thin.

Today I am returning to Ockeghem's songs which were at or near the beginning of my interest in medieval and renaissance music, and what you wrote feels especially poignant, that I could, whatever it means or for whatever it's worth, relate in a straightforwardly-felt way to music written down 500 years ago. And there is something the same that does come through in even very different performances of a given song. For me today it's Ma maistresse that just feels like such perfect songwriting and so distinctively Ockeghem.

[cheregi]

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:30:59 AM UTC-4, cheregi wrote:

Anyway, has anyone else seen anything about this - https://graindelavoix.myshopify.com/products/josquin-the-undead-laments-deplorations-and-dances-of-death

So after all we are getting Graindelavoix Josquin! But of course it's not any of the usual suspects, rather it's the same posthumous greatest-hits chanson collection that Ensemble Clement Janequin just performed so compellingly, and even in a kind of vaguely Graindelavoix-y way, with the 'roughness' of the voices...

[Todd M. McComb]

Post by cheregi
Anyway, has anyone else seen anything about this -
https://graindelavoix.myshopify.com/products/josquin-the-undead-laments-deplorations-and-dances-of-death

Hadn't seen it yet.... Interesting choice for Graindelavoix.

[Todd M. McComb]

Post by Todd M. McComb
Hadn't seen it yet.... Interesting choice for Graindelavoix.

I really enjoyed this the second time through. Might be the release
of the anniversary year so far for me... per early impressions.

[cheregi]

Hadn't seen it yet.... Interesting choice for Graindelavoix.

I really enjoyed this the second time through. Might be the release
of the anniversary year so far for me... per early impressions.

Really enjoyed the two early 'singles' on the graindelavoix 'bootlegs' youtube channel, and was already thinking about how there's something extra special about the level of refinement here compared to previous graindelavoix releases, so it's vindicating to see you express a similar sentiment in your longer remarks.

[Mandryka]

Listening to Heringman’s latest Josquin, love the way he plays the silences.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka
Listening to Heringman’s latest Josquin, love the way he plays the silences.

Now enjoying the John Potter/ Anna Maria Friman disc with Josquin and others. Secret Histories.

[cheregi]

Profeti Della Quinta doing Mille Regretz, unfortunately not a harbinger of (yet another) Josquin songs recording but quite beautiful nonetheless:

And then this prompted youtube to recommend me a recording of the same song by 'Pulse Ensemble', who seem to be new:

Quite a discovery, I think, much as I wish I could say it came by another route. Very distinctive, bassy sound, and in some tracks bringing also a rather unique sense of (subtle) ornamentation.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's
results thus far, but I've been following the approach & will
certainly audition whatever is next.

To elaborate a little, I like the vocal technique/timbre, but am
rather less enthusiastic regarding the simplified notes & rhythms.

[Mandryka]

Stile Antico’s new Josquin is now available, with M. Pange Lingue. Beautiful of course, it’s too early for me to say whether there are any new challenging ideas in there, it sounds like yet another well executed mainstream performance, on the basis of one superficial listen.

I know some people who rate Stile Antico as the best of the choirs around today from the point of view of sonority and vocality, this may be true, but from the point of view of interpretation I doubt it’s true.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Stile Antico's new Josquin is now available, with M. Pange Lingue.

Hrm, this is a new album where the Presto download includes no liner
notes. And the Decca site only sells CDs(!).

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Stile Antico's new Josquin is now available, with M. Pange Lingue.

Hrm, this is a new album where the Presto download includes no liner
notes. And the Decca site only sells CDs(!).

I wonder if January is indicative of what the year of releases will
be like, or if this is already most of them....

The liner notes thing is a real aggravation, though, not least
because there's a good chance there's nothing of interest in the
liner notes! But how to know...? And it always seems irresponsible
of me to comment on points that might well be discussed already by
the musicians/producers without having read what they have to say....

The incentive of Decca/Presto to be releasing this new album download
sans notes? Charge another $1 for them or something if that's what
they really want.... The current situation seems absurd.

Anyway, Visse/Ricercar review coming shortly. Brabant is that "17th
century choir" sound, but the most interesting program so far with
"a lot of music" even if some of it ends up being obscured by style.
(I haven't read their discussion yet, although I have it!) "Best
sounding" is still Cantica Symphonia, although most of their program
is material I didn't really need to hear more of....

(Note that both Maletto & Visse completely sidestep authorship
discussions, so maybe that'll be the general approach this year.
People can't resist some of the catchy
this-probably-isn't-really-by-Josquin music.... Whether anyone
tries explicitly to address the shift/overlap in tuning during the
Josquin era remains an open question.... So far, no. Seems like
something Kirkman would surely do, but we'll see....)

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
I wonder if January is indicative of what the year of releases will
be like, or if this is already most of them....

Well, things have slowed considerably....

I expect some more will pick up in the Fall?

At this point, it seems as though there's been lamentably little
progress on Josquin interpretations. I mean, obviously I'm being
premature, and some developments will surely be consolidated, but
it mainly seems as though people are spinning their wheels....

Hence one of the greatest musical figures in European history will
see his 500th anniverary pass with barely a shrug?

[Mandryka]

What is Missa Chacun me Crie? Metamorphoses recorded it, but is it by Josquin? I don't have the booklet to the CD unfortunately.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Mandryka
What is Missa Chacun me Crie? Metamorphoses recorded it, but is it by Josquin? I don't have the booklet to the CD unfortunately.

Yes, by Josquin.

[MiNe109]

Post by Mandryka
What is Missa Chacun me Crie? Metamorphoses recorded it, but is it
by Josquin? I don't have the booklet to the CD unfortunately.

There's a description here:

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/arr20132.htm

"...The Missa "Chascun me crie... même Hercule!" was written by Maurice
Bourbon based on Josquin's Credo "Chascun me crie" and themes from the
Hercules mass and elsewhere. Although he states it is in the
Franco-Flemish style of the period, I do not think anyone would mistake
this music as by Josquin or his contemporaries."

So it's an original work based on Josquin.

[Mandryka]

Post by MiNe109

What is Missa Chacun me Crie? Metamorphoses recorded it, but is it
by Josquin? I don't have the booklet to the CD unfortunately.

http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/arr20132.htm
"...The Missa "Chascun me crie... même Hercule!" was written by Maurice
Bourbon based on Josquin's Credo "Chascun me crie" and themes from the
Hercules mass and elsewhere. Although he states it is in the
Franco-Flemish style of the period, I do not think anyone would mistake
this music as by Josquin or his contemporaries."
So it's an original work based on Josquin.

I really ought to go to that website more often! Thanks -- to you and to Todd.

[Mandryka]

I just noticed a review of the new Dufay from Diabolus in Musica on medieval.org -- I'm enjoying it more than Todd I think. Very lyrical, fluid, sweet, in the mass.

It brought back a memory. I heard them sing this mass in Paris the day Notre Dame burnt. At the end of the concert Guerber announced that he'd heard that the cathedral was on fire, when we left the hall the air was filled with smoke. I walked down to the cathedral and watched the flames . . .

I didn't enjoy the concert much because the ensemble seemed to be dominated by the bass Philippe Roche, and that just felt wrong to me. But on record the sound seems more equally balanced.

In the booklet Guerber comments that he thinks that the music has “un humanism touchant et raffiné.” I really am the most suggestable person in the world, because that's exactly what this recording seems to bring to a mass which has not often been recorded. Pomerium did it, but it has never been resurrected from vinyl. And Vellard did it on Stil with Schola Cantorum Basilensis, but the sound's a bit disappointing.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
I just noticed a review of the new Dufay from Diabolus in Musica
on medieval.org -- I'm enjoying it more than Todd I think.

Well it's the best version yet... tried to balance some feelings
of disappointment though. (That's only because there have been so
many improvements of late in singing/recording this repertory.)

Post by Mandryka
I heard them sing this mass in Paris the day Notre Dame burnt.

That does answer part of my implied question as to whether they'd
been able to perform this piece as much before recording....

Post by Mandryka
... what this recording seems to bring to a mass which has not
often been recorded.

Yes, it's strange... maybe the Vellard version cast a little bit
of a spell, but it's very dated at this point....

(I'm surprised you didn't mention the Cantica Symphonia version.
Er, and there's no Pomerium that I can see!)

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Mandryka
I just noticed a review of the new Dufay from Diabolus in Musica
on medieval.org -- I'm enjoying it more than Todd I think.

Well it's the best version yet... tried to balance some feelings
of disappointment though. (That's only because there have been so
many improvements of late in singing/recording this repertory.)

Post by Mandryka
I heard them sing this mass in Paris the day Notre Dame burnt.

That does answer part of my implied question as to whether they'd
been able to perform this piece as much before recording....

Post by Mandryka
... what this recording seems to bring to a mass which has not
often been recorded.

Yes, it's strange... maybe the Vellard version cast a little bit
of a spell, but it's very dated at this point....
(I'm surprised you didn't mention the Cantica Symphonia version.
Er, and there's no Pomerium that I can see!)

Ah, Pomerium is Ecce Ancilla Domine, and I forgot the Cantica Symphonia, thanks for reminding me, I remember really liking it - those early Maletto recordings are introspective. Will dig it out over the next few days.

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Mandryka
I just noticed a review of the new Dufay from Diabolus in Musica
on medieval.org -- I'm enjoying it more than Todd I think.

Well it's the best version yet... tried to balance some feelings
of disappointment though. (That's only because there have been so
many improvements of late in singing/recording this repertory.)

Post by Mandryka
I heard them sing this mass in Paris the day Notre Dame burnt.

That does answer part of my implied question as to whether they'd
been able to perform this piece as much before recording....

Post by Mandryka
... what this recording seems to bring to a mass which has not
often been recorded.

Yes, it's strange... maybe the Vellard version cast a little bit
of a spell, but it's very dated at this point....
(I'm surprised you didn't mention the Cantica Symphonia version.
Er, and there's no Pomerium that I can see!)

Ah, Pomerium is Ecce Ancilla Domine, and I forgot the Cantica Symphonia, thanks for reminding me, I remember really liking it - those early Maletto recordings are introspective. Will dig it out over the next few days.

And Clemencic -- dated, passionate, fascinating.

[Mandryka]

The latest new release for the Josquin anniversary -- Tetsuro Hanai with both the L'homme Arme masses I haven't heard it, obvs.

http://cappellajp.com/album/index.html

Loading Image...

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
The latest new release for the Josquin anniversary -- Tetsuro Hanai with
both the L'homme Arme masses I haven't heard it, obvs.
http://cappellajp.com/album/index.html

A new one? Scroll down to the next entry... also #1045 (recorded
in 2013)!

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Mandryka
The latest new release for the Josquin anniversary -- Tetsuro
Hanai with both the L'homme Arme masses I haven't heard it, obvs.

A new one?

In one place on the Tower Records Japan site, it suggests that this
program is actually Missa Sine nomine & Missa Ad fugam... which
hadn't appeared in the series yet.

The cover graphic clearly says "Missa L'homme arme" though....

[Mandryka]

Well it’s all a bit academic for me because I can see no way of hearing their recordings without paying an arm and a leg in import taxes, which I’m not prepared to do.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Well it's all a bit academic for me because I can see no way of
hearing their recordings without paying an arm and a leg in import
taxes, which I'm not prepared to do.

I was getting to the point of figuring out "What is this going to
cost me?" when I started to have doubts on the contents....

I believe that at least one person on this group has attested to
preferring these recordings, so perhaps some practical advice may
yet be added....

[gggg gggg]

Post by Ellie Ke

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western music
history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging with that
debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him to be the best of
his era myself, but did want to contextualize the anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending on
volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in this
group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of Josquin's
best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to this point.
Getting the understanding together AND getting the vocal technique
together has taken a long time. To this point, pace the other
conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the abstract/silly Kantian
or Platonic sense) has been left on the page -- so to speak. Some gets
through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for a
long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

Stumbled upon this discussion and thought I'd join, as I am among those
excited about the possibility of many new Josquin recordings... Mostly I
hope we get some good motet collections...

According to this:

- ... The Binchois Consort, we get a program almost entirely devoted to Josquin, but in a very unique way: most of the works are motets...

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8103/

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by gggg gggg
- ... The Binchois Consort, we get a program almost entirely devoted
to Josquin, but in a very unique way: most of the works are motets...

Not unique at all, of course, including not "very." :-)

But the motets have been relatively neglected over the past couple
of decades. (This is cyclical. Already in Gustav Reese, motets
are given pride of place.)

[sci.space]

For anyone interested, WHRB, the radio station at Harvard University, is part way through a Josquin orgy. Today , 11 May, they will be playing his works from 1 pm through 10 pm and tomorrow from 6 pm to 10 pm. They have a streaming service at WHRB.ORG are are available on many internet radio feeds for those not in the broadcast coverage area.

[Vanessa Lann]

This is great to know - thanks!
(I used to be a member of WHRB, myself)

Vanessa Lann
www.lann.dds.nl

For anyone interested, WHRB, the radio station at Harvard University, is part way through a Josquin orgy. Today , 11 May, they will be playing his works from 1 pm through 10 pm and tomorrow from 6 pm to 10 pm. They have a streaming service at WHRB.ORG are are available on many internet radio feeds for those not in the broadcast coverage area.

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

"The Musical Mysteries of Josquin" (recent article):

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/06/21/the-musical-mysteries-of-josquin

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

(Recent Y. upload):

Unsatisfyingly sweet: Josquin's Mille Regretz

[Mandryka]

Not Josquin, but I’ve found myself really enjoying Andrew Kirkman’s old recording called Josquin and his Contemporaries - and in particular the De Produndis by Nicolas Champion. Graindelavoix also recorded it. I don’t care if Kirkman’s style is part of a neo colonial subjugation of the pre modern, it’s fucking gorgeous.

So little of this composer on record, but there is a whole mass by Graindelavoix - Schmelzer clearly an advocate.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka
Not Josquin, but I’ve found myself really enjoying Andrew Kirkman’s old recording called Josquin and his Contemporaries - and in particular the De Produndis by Nicolas Champion. Graindelavoix also recorded it. I don’t care if Kirkman’s style is part of a neo colonial subjugation of the pre modern, it’s fucking gorgeous.
So little of this composer on record, but there is a whole mass by Graindelavoix - Schmelzer clearly an advocate.

Also listened to Capella Pratensis with Missa Ave Maris Stella - what’s interesting is that I think you can hear Rebecca Stewart’s influence even though it Stratton Bull.

[Todd M. McComb]

Not Josquin, but I’ve found myself really enjoying Andrew Kirkman’s
old recording called Josquin and his Contemporaries ....

Didn't someone say Kirkman is doing a new Josquin album?

[Todd M. McComb]

Not Josquin, but I’ve found myself really enjoying Andrew Kirkman’s
old recording called Josquin and his Contemporaries - and in particular
the De Produndis by Nicolas Champion. Graindelavoix also recorded it.

Note that the _De profundis_ was still attributed to Josquin in the
New New Grove (2001), where it's even used in the text as an example
of his style.... (It's on e.g. a Hilliard Ensemble album as a work
by Josquin.)

[Mandryka]

And the booklet for the Hilliard set describes it as one of Josquin's finest works -- an essay by Mark Audus who is, or was, in the music department of Nottingham University.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka
And the booklet for the Hilliard set describes it as one of Josquin's finest works -- an essay by Mark Audus who is, or was, in the music department of Nottingham University.

And work on the attribution was done by Patrick Macey, who has created a Josquin edition -- apparently he argues it's more likely to be Champion than Josquin -- based on a statistical analysis of their "musical habits."

(From Josquin's Qui habitat and the Psalm Motets by Leeman L. Perkins -- in Jstor.)

[Mandryka]

I see that eight mass recordings from Tetsuro Hanai are now on spotify and elsewhere, i.e. out of Japan.

[Todd M. McComb]

Post by Mandryka
I see that eight mass recordings from Tetsuro Hanai are now on
spotify and elsewhere, i.e. out of Japan.

Ha, after I finally relented this year & ordered from Japan...!
Well, it's good these will be in the more general conversation.

[cheregi]

Post by Todd M. McComb

Post by Mandryka
I see that eight mass recordings from Tetsuro Hanai are now on
spotify and elsewhere, i.e. out of Japan.

Ha, after I finally relented this year & ordered from Japan...!
Well, it's good these will be in the more general conversation.

Was a very welcome surprise to find them suddenly on youtube...

Anyway, arbitrarily returning to Stewart's and related recordings in the past few days, still thinking about the issue of this approach rendering rhythmic ideas clearly present in the written music almost inaudible... I think it's a strong criticism.

I think I was wrong to generalize from my impression of the Cappella Pratensis Dufay recording (formless, directionless) to the idea that the Stewart approach doesn't effectively serve pre-Ockeghem composers. The 2002 (not 2005!) Machaut with Schola Cantorum Brabantiae has, since then, become for me the premier example of the strength of the overall approach, the piece sounding more formed and directional than in anybody else's hands. I think I just don't really like the Dufay mass itself, the booklet even proposes that it's a show-off-y consolidation of many international styles by a young Dufay with something to prove, which indeed doesn't seem likely to appeal...

Also, I seem to remember that the argument for extreme close-miking in Beauty Farm and related ensembles is: there's all this (rhythmic etc.) nuance/complexity in the written music, but there's 'no way' (in quotes because of course Stewart at least claims to have 'solved' this 'problem) to sing it such that, in church acoustics, that effectively translates to the churchgoing audience, who hear more of a smeared smudged sound, so it must have been written for the enjoyment and indulgence of the singers (cf. Ockeghem's various notational puzzles), so we should make recordings that present what the singers hear rather than what the audience hears? If I am representing this correctly, it does seem to be about as much of a 'plot hole'/implausibility as the issue of rhythm in Stewart's approach. What does Beauty Farm sound like from the audience? (As I'm typing this, I haven't even yet bothered to type 'beauty farm live' into youtube...)

Also - been listening to vocal subgenres of gagaku music, saibara and roei, and really quite strongly struck by the similarities with Stewart and with, by extension, Dagar dhrupad... I knew Stewart had played in a gagaku ensemble in the 1960s but without hearing this type of vocalization I didn't have the pieces to put together, to imagine the seed of Stewart's approach as: noticing similarity between gagaku and dhrupad vocalization (and, I don't know, presumably Sardinian modal polyphony too or something like that), generalizing from this about an archaic layer of overtone-oriented vocal techniques once common to liturgical chant in general, and then of course reconstructing an analogous approach for Josquin etc....

[Todd M. McComb]

I seem to remember that the argument for extreme close-miking ....

I would not call it "extreme." In fact, I would say that a lot of
mic'ing in this repertory is rather distant. :-)

... so we should make recordings that present what the singers
hear rather than what the audience hears?

This is more or less what Jesse Rodin says in his new recording,
where they go for more presence as well. It's welcome to me, and
I think you're dividing the poles too much, in that in practice,
in person, one can adjust one's ear fairly well between "closer"
listening & hearing the bigger acoustic. However, when recordings
focus on the latter, the former becomes impossible. Perhaps that
will change with the "high def" recordings genre....

But of course, who was really the intended audience for this music?
As far as implausibility arguments go....

The 2002 (not 2005!) Machaut with Schola Cantorum Brabantiae ....

This recording seems not to be listed at the FAQ. Where is the
information for it? It seems not to have been a commercial release....

[cheregi]

I would not call it "extreme." In fact, I would say that a lot of
mic'ing in this repertory is rather distant. :-)

That's a good reframing, I do tend to agree with you there.

This is more or less what Jesse Rodin says in his new recording,
where they go for more presence as well. It's welcome to me, and
I think you're dividing the poles too much, in that in practice,
in person, one can adjust one's ear fairly well between "closer"
listening & hearing the bigger acoustic. However, when recordings
focus on the latter, the former becomes impossible. Perhaps that
will change with the "high def" recordings genre....

Interesting, that does make sense... Living in Seattle and Denver and not being particularly interested in the majority of these ensembles I've yet to actually experience any of this music live.

But of course, who was really the intended audience for this music?
As far as implausibility arguments go....

I'm not totally sure what you mean here. It seems like, for example, in madrigals it makes sense to imagine the singers as the primary audience because the singers are wealthy amateurs who can patronize composers and are therefore worth impressing, but in masses the singers are lower-status working professionals, so the music is clearly public-facing.

This recording seems not to be listed at the FAQ. Where is the
information for it? It seems not to have been a commercial release....

I came across it almost by accident, but looking now the only place I can find any mention is here: http://www.machali.net/Early%20Music/Discography/EMD_PQ.htm , which has entries for both the 2001/2(?) and 2005 recordings. But the files I have (for the earlier recording) include scans of reasonably professional-looking CD case, booklet essay in 3 languages... There's a 'Fontys' logo, presumably the conservatory, and 'JLR 20021' in several places. I'd happily supply the files. The 2005 is a lower-quality live recording with no metadata which I think I acquired from Mandryka, actually.

Two more Stewart-related recordings, which I haven't heard, include the Hadewijch CD that accompanied a book in Dutch, and this 2007 Cantus Modalis: https://www.muziekweb.nl/Link/DBX8501/Missa-Fontes-et-omnia

[Todd M. McComb]

Post by cheregi
It seems like, for example, in madrigals it makes sense to imagine
the singers as the primary audience because the singers are wealthy
amateurs who can patronize composers and are therefore worth
impressing, but in masses the singers are lower-status working
professionals, so the music is clearly public-facing.

We're talking about prior to the Reformation. And a public that
was accustomed e.g. to listening to entire services in a language
they didn't understand. To me, this is a matter of degree: Then
as now, someone's grandma (to pick an unfair trope...) will simply
glory in the overall sonic spectacle. Someone else will be listening
to musical details. And various degrees of attentiveness in between.
The economic situation you're suggesting, though, didn't really
maintain yet. The sorts of expert singers singing a Josquin mass
would be more like ivory tower academics -- even cloistered! These
were among the most educated people of the period. They had bosses,
but the public wasn't them (& the public sometimes resented it!).

[re: Stewart Machaut...]

Post by cheregi
I came across it almost by accident, but looking now the only place
http://www.machali.net/Early%20Music/Discography/EMD_PQ.htm

Hmm, Jorge Salazar has contributed many entries to the FAQ discography,
but not those "private label" items.

So I ask first from my "institutional" role about listing these
recordings.... Of course "private recording" opens up who knows
what....

But yes, I would also be happy to hear this as a listener, if it's
convenient and doesn't seem like it's running afoul of someone's
rights....

[Mandryka]

I believe the source of Rebecca Stewart’s Machaut recording is here - if the link on the page doesn’t work say and I’ll upload it for you

http://intoclassics.net/news/2010-09-17-18584

[cheregi]

We're talking about prior to the Reformation. And a public that
was accustomed e.g. to listening to entire services in a language
they didn't understand. To me, this is a matter of degree: Then
as now, someone's grandma (to pick an unfair trope...) will simply
glory in the overall sonic spectacle. Someone else will be listening
to musical details. And various degrees of attentiveness in between.
The economic situation you're suggesting, though, didn't really
maintain yet. The sorts of expert singers singing a Josquin mass
would be more like ivory tower academics -- even cloistered! These
were among the most educated people of the period. They had bosses,
but the public wasn't them (& the public sometimes resented it!).

Interesting... surprised as always by the sheer scale of societal transformation in Europe from pre-imperial to imperial era... and also feeling like I should read up a bit on the actual social circumstances in which Josquin masses etc. were performed...

Hmm, Jorge Salazar has contributed many entries to the FAQ discography,
but not those "private label" items.
So I ask first from my "institutional" role about listing these
recordings.... Of course "private recording" opens up who knows
what....
But yes, I would also be happy to hear this as a listener, if it's
convenient and doesn't seem like it's running afoul of someone's
rights....

Just sent a link. One of the singers credited for this recording actually happened to have answered my email inquiry to Cantus Modalis a few years ago, when I couldn't find some of the early Cappella Pratensis CDs. He freely sent over all the files. If I'd known about this Machaut I would've asked for it too, instead of stumbling upon it later.

[Mandryka]

Post by cheregi

Post by Todd M. McComb

Post by Mandryka
I see that eight mass recordings from Tetsuro Hanai are now on
spotify and elsewhere, i.e. out of Japan.

Ha, after I finally relented this year & ordered from Japan...!
Well, it's good these will be in the more general conversation.

Was a very welcome surprise to find them suddenly on youtube...
Anyway, arbitrarily returning to Stewart's and related recordings in the past few days, still thinking about the issue of this approach rendering rhythmic ideas clearly present in the written music almost inaudible... I think it's a strong criticism.
I think I was wrong to generalize from my impression of the Cappella Pratensis Dufay recording (formless, directionless) to the idea that the Stewart approach doesn't effectively serve pre-Ockeghem composers. The 2002 (not 2005!) Machaut with Schola Cantorum Brabantiae has, since then, become for me the premier example of the strength of the overall approach, the piece sounding more formed and directional than in anybody else's hands. I think I just don't really like the Dufay mass itself, the booklet even proposes that it's a show-off-y consolidation of many international styles by a young Dufay with something to prove, which indeed doesn't seem likely to appeal...
Also, I seem to remember that the argument for extreme close-miking in Beauty Farm and related ensembles is: there's all this (rhythmic etc.) nuance/complexity in the written music, but there's 'no way' (in quotes because of course Stewart at least claims to have 'solved' this 'problem) to sing it such that, in church acoustics, that effectively translates to the churchgoing audience, who hear more of a smeared smudged sound, so it must have been written for the enjoyment and indulgence of the singers (cf. Ockeghem's various notational puzzles), so we should make recordings that present what the singers hear rather than what the audience hears? If I am representing this correctly, it does seem to be about as much of a 'plot hole'/implausibility as the issue of rhythm in Stewart's approach. What does Beauty Farm sound like from the audience? (As I'm typing this, I haven't even yet bothered to type 'beauty farm live' into youtube...)
Also - been listening to vocal subgenres of gagaku music, saibara and roei, and really quite strongly struck by the similarities with Stewart and with, by extension, Dagar dhrupad... I knew Stewart had played in a gagaku ensemble in the 1960s but without hearing this type of vocalization I didn't have the pieces to put together, to imagine the seed of Stewart's approach as: noticing similarity between gagaku and dhrupad vocalization (and, I don't know, presumably Sardinian modal polyphony too or something like that), generalizing from this about an archaic layer of overtone-oriented vocal techniques once common to liturgical chant in general, and then of course reconstructing an analogous approach for Josquin etc....

I have heard concerts in Holland and Belgium in Renaissance churches which have excellent acoustics.

[cheregi]

Post by Mandryka
I have heard concerts in Holland and Belgium in Renaissance churches which have excellent acoustics.

Excellent as in, easy to hear everything going on? Interesting. I think there's something also about how a lot of those churches have been modified since? Maybe that's b.s.

[Mandryka]

Post by cheregi

Post by Todd M. McComb

Post by Mandryka
I see that eight mass recordings from Tetsuro Hanai are now on
spotify and elsewhere, i.e. out of Japan.

Ha, after I finally relented this year & ordered from Japan...!
Well, it's good these will be in the more general conversation.

Was a very welcome surprise to find them suddenly on youtube...
Anyway, arbitrarily returning to Stewart's and related recordings in the past few days, still thinking about the issue of this approach rendering rhythmic ideas clearly present in the written music almost inaudible... I think it's a strong criticism.
I think I was wrong to generalize from my impression of the Cappella Pratensis Dufay recording (formless, directionless) to the idea that the Stewart approach doesn't effectively serve pre-Ockeghem composers. The 2002 (not 2005!) Machaut with Schola Cantorum Brabantiae has, since then, become for me the premier example of the strength of the overall approach, the piece sounding more formed and directional than in anybody else's hands. I think I just don't really like the Dufay mass itself, the booklet even proposes that it's a show-off-y consolidation of many international styles by a young Dufay with something to prove, which indeed doesn't seem likely to appeal...
Also, I seem to remember that the argument for extreme close-miking in Beauty Farm and related ensembles is: there's all this (rhythmic etc.) nuance/complexity in the written music, but there's 'no way' (in quotes because of course Stewart at least claims to have 'solved' this 'problem) to sing it such that, in church acoustics, that effectively translates to the churchgoing audience, who hear more of a smeared smudged sound, so it must have been written for the enjoyment and indulgence of the singers (cf. Ockeghem's various notational puzzles), so we should make recordings that present what the singers hear rather than what the audience hears? If I am representing this correctly, it does seem to be about as much of a 'plot hole'/implausibility as the issue of rhythm in Stewart's approach. What does Beauty Farm sound like from the audience? (As I'm typing this, I haven't even yet bothered to type 'beauty farm live' into youtube...)
Also - been listening to vocal subgenres of gagaku music, saibara and roei, and really quite strongly struck by the similarities with Stewart and with, by extension, Dagar dhrupad... I knew Stewart had played in a gagaku ensemble in the 1960s but without hearing this type of vocalization I didn't have the pieces to put together, to imagine the seed of Stewart's approach as: noticing similarity between gagaku and dhrupad vocalization (and, I don't know, presumably Sardinian modal polyphony too or something like that), generalizing from this about an archaic layer of overtone-oriented vocal techniques once common to liturgical chant in general, and then of course reconstructing an analogous approach for Josquin etc....

I rather appreciate the Cappella Pratensis Dufay, I don’t think it is directionless, there are cadences and climaxes. What I like most is that they’re good with the words, they make the poetry of the mass sound meaningful.

Re the acoustics of churches, remember that some of this music was site specific and written for specific occasions. Dufay’s Nuper Rosarum Flores was written for the consecration of Florence Cathedral, for example - the motet was written for a grand public ceremony in precisely that building.

[cheregi]

I rather appreciate the Cappella Pratensis Dufay, I don’t think it is directionless, there are cadences and climaxes. What I like most is that they’re good with the words, they make the poetry of the mass sound meaningful.

I might have just been overwhelmed by sheer variety, with no monophonic chant to rest my ears on between sections. I listened again to the Alleluia and enjoyed it more without context. I agree that there is an especial attention to words here that pays off.

Re the acoustics of churches, remember that some of this music was site specific and written for specific occasions. Dufay’s Nuper Rosarum Flores was written for the consecration of Florence Cathedral, for example - the motet was written for a grand public ceremony in precisely that building.

I've often heard Gabrieli's later innovation of polychoral style described as the most significant instance where the acoustics of a single building shaped evolution in musical aesthetics across an entire continent. Maybe this is true of Nostre Dame as well? And I'm curious if anything else was written with Florence Cathedral in mind. I've been thinking a lot about the ways that acoustic environments shape development of music in hunter-gatherer/pastoralist/farming/'mostly-outdoors' cultures, attention to harmony correlating with dense jungle or high mountain, attention to monophonic melody correlating to deserts and flatlands. Armchair ethnomusicology...

Anyway I just sent the 2001 Machaut to you as well on talkclassical.

[Mandryka]

Re the Dufay St James mass, Andrew Kirkman doesn’t mention the idea that is a show off student work. Reading his essay reminded me of something I knew but am always forgetting, that Dufay composed the propers as well as the ordinarium. An interesting scholarly essay, and it’s good to have Kirkman’s interpretation to complement Stewart’s.

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/55272-B.pdf

[Mandryka]

Re the Dufay St James mass, Andrew Kirkman doesn’t mention the idea that is a show off student work. Reading his essay reminded me of something I knew but am always forgetting, that Dufay composed the propers as well as the ordinarium. An interesting scholarly essay, and it’s good to have Kirkman’s interpretation to complement Stewart’s.
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/55272-B.pdf

My real point is, that it’s a good idea to NOT skip the propers - which is what I often do out of habit! Of course it makes the experience much longer, but that’s good!

[Todd M. McComb]

... significant instance where the acoustics of a single building
shaped evolution in musical aesthetics across an entire continent.
Maybe this is true of Nostre Dame as well?

Not really, no. Although the acoustics of Nostre Dame have been
identified (speculated?) as contributing to specific harmonic
relations in the Machaut Mass, most of the more elaborate polyphonic
Mass movements of the period are actually from Avignon & elsewhere.
That Machaut wrote an entire Mass Ordinary as a single cycle was a
novelty, but not the style in general.

Anyway I just sent the 2001 Machaut to you as well on talkclassical.

Thanks also for that. I have a couple of basic thoughts.

1) The "first thing" I wanted to hear in a 2001 recording was how
they handled the long texts of the Gloria & Credo. It was 2004,
as I recall, that Clemencic put out a recording with a more declamatory
style, and that's changed how these pieces are performed. These
are rather limp, maybe parts of the Credo are steps in that
direction....

2) Especially for a group concerned so strongly with vocal
sound/technique that they let it determine their pace/phrasing, the
prominence of women's voices must be noted. Not only that, they
come off to me as pretty generic Western singers of the 21st century
-- more so than the men. And dominate much of the sound, seeming
particularly jarring in the plainchant IMO.

[Todd M. McComb]

Although the acoustics of Nostre Dame have been identified
(speculated?) as contributing to specific harmonic relations ....

Sorry, I'm confusing my remarks. :-)

[cheregi]

Post by Mandryka

Post by Mandryka
And the booklet for the Hilliard set describes it as one of Josquin's finest works -- an essay by Mark Audus who is, or was, in the music department of Nottingham University.

And work on the attribution was done by Patrick Macey, who has created a Josquin edition -- apparently he argues it's more likely to be Champion than Josquin -- based on a statistical analysis of their "musical habits."
(From Josquin's Qui habitat and the Psalm Motets by Leeman L. Perkins -- in Jstor.)

Oof - knowing what I know how about the history of attribution of the Josquin(?) Missa Mater patris I feel strongly predisposed to distrust such analysis...

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

(Recent Y. upload):

Review: It's A Big Box Of Josquin, Mon!

[Mandryka]

Listening to Cappella Pratensis doing Missa Gaudeamus. Well worth hearing, this, because it’s so intimate. I keep thinking that the music is some sort of summit of something - I mean, it sounds very special music in CP’s hands at least.