Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

[Sean Fidler]

I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.

When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.

Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).

Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?

I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.

I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.

Sean
7T

[Bruce Hoult]

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
Sean
7T

Because it needs a LOT of space, unless all you want to do is get something with a sustainer engine off the ground? (or you're at a ridge-top site)

[Tango Whisky]

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.

Winches can be homebuilt.
They are not expensive to maintain.
At least in Europe, they are not expensive to insure.
In most European clubs (maybe except Southern France), most club members are trained to operate a winch, and do so based on a rooster schedule.

So why exactly do you want to replace them with a car screaming down the runway?

Bert
TW

[GB]

Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.

[Dan Marotta]

I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of the
launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley was
mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was staked
to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff direction
during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the pulley, it was
every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at about 1/2 the speed
of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway and I don't recall the
release height, though it was not as high as a winch with a full runway
length of cable.

Post by GB
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.

There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.

I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed).  One of
the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
staked to the ground near mid field.  The car drove in the takeoff
direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch.  The car drove at
about 1/2 the speed of the glider.  We were using a 3,400' runway
and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
a winch with a full runway length of cable.
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
--
Dan, 5J

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 6:18:15 PM UTC-6,
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm

Reverse pulley is the best way to autotow. Cotswold no longer does this, but did so for about 30 years.

Frank Whiteley

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.

I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed).  One of
the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
staked to the ground near mid field.  The car drove in the takeoff
direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch.  The car drove at
about 1/2 the speed of the glider.  We were using a 3,400' runway
and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
a winch with a full runway length of cable.
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks, Bill.

I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN thing.
Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear end of the car
being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost control of the car.
Fortunately the passenger/observer was Emerson Fittipaldi and he reached
across, took the wheel, and straightened out the car. When I released,
it was quite a sight seeing the rope literally slamming down on the
runway. I can easily imagine the tangles this caused in the pulley
system. =-O

Dan

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.

Post by Dan Marotta
I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of
the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
staked to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff
direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at
about 1/2 the speed of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway
and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
a winch with a full runway length of cable.
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

...
I have the raw footage on DVD. Perhaps I can find a "free" video editor
program and pull out the car pulley sequence and upload to google
drive. We'll see...

Dan

Post by Dan Marotta
Thanks, Bill.
I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN thing.
Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear end of the
car being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost control of the
car. Fortunately the passenger/observer was Emerson Fittipaldi and he
reached across, took the wheel, and straightened out the car. When I
released, it was quite a sight seeing the rope literally slamming down
on the runway. I can easily imagine the tangles this caused in the
pulley system. =-O
Dan

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.

Post by Dan Marotta
I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of
the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
staked to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff
direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at
about 1/2 the speed of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway
and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
a winch with a full runway length of cable.
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

As promised, the following clip was copied from raw film shot for an
ESPN show, Secrets of Speed. The ground launch begins around 30 seconds
into the clip but I left the low pass just for fun. This shows what
happens to the tow car when the glider (me in my LS-6a) pull too
aggressively at the top.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9a4v2wbg9fok9r/Ground%20Launch.mp4?dl=0

Post by Dan Marotta
...
I have the raw footage on DVD. Perhaps I can find a "free" video
editor program and pull out the car pulley sequence and upload to
google drive. We'll see...
Dan

Post by Dan Marotta
Thanks, Bill.
I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN
thing. Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear end
of the car being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost control of
the car. Fortunately the passenger/observer was Emerson Fittipaldi
and he reached across, took the wheel, and straightened out the car.
When I released, it was quite a sight seeing the rope literally
slamming down on the runway. I can easily imagine the tangles this
caused in the pulley system. =-O
Dan

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.

Post by Dan Marotta
I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed). One of
the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
staked to the ground near mid field. The car drove in the takeoff
direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch. The car drove at
about 1/2 the speed of the glider. We were using a 3,400' runway
and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
a winch with a full runway length of cable.
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[WB]

Post by Dan Marotta
As promised, the following clip was copied from raw film shot for an
ESPN show, Secrets of Speed.  The ground launch begins around 30
seconds into the clip but I left the low pass just for fun.  This
shows what happens to the tow car when the glider (me in my LS-6a)
pull too aggressively at the top.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9a4v2wbg9fok9r/Ground%20Launch.mp4?dl=0
On 10/6/2015 9:35 AM, Dan Marotta
...
I have the raw footage on DVD.  Perhaps I can find a "free" video
editor program and pull out the car pulley sequence and upload to
google drive.  We'll see...
Dan
On 10/6/2015 9:21 AM, Dan Marotta
Thanks, Bill.
I only did a couple of pulley tows for the filming of the ESPN
thing.  Some of the raw footage (not shown on TV) shows the rear
end of the car being lifted sufficiently that the driver lost
control of the car.  Fortunately the passenger/observer was
Emerson Fittipaldi and he reached across, took the wheel, and
straightened out the car.  When I released, it was quite a sight
seeing the rope literally slamming down on the runway.  I can
easily imagine the tangles this caused in the pulley system. =-O
Dan
Dan, a pulley tow launches a glider just fine - but then you need to reset for the next launch. Often, this means untangling the rope. Straight auto tow or winch launch rarely tangles the rope.
There are very few pulley tow operations in the world and cycle time is the usual reason why they gave up on pulleys and moved on to winch launch.
I once flew for an ESPN video on flying (Secrets of Speed).  One of
the launch methods used was an auto pulley tow wherein the pulley
was mounted to the receiver on the back of the car and the cable was
staked to the ground near mid field.  The car drove in the takeoff
direction during the launch and, with the 2:1 advantage of the
pulley, it was every bit as exciting as a winch.  The car drove at
about 1/2 the speed of the glider.  We were using a 3,400' runway
and I don't recall the release height, though it was not as high as
a winch with a full runway length of cable.
Good question. Seems to me reverse car tows(fixed pulley windward car drives toward the glider) would be the way to go. Has there been any sailplane work with car mounted pay out winches? Pay out winches are what the hangglider and paraglider community have mostly settled on using. Both of these solutions somewhat mitigate the space needed to auto tow.
--
Dan, 5J
--
Dan, 5J
--
Dan, 5J
--
Dan, 5J

Yep. That's why we had 400 pounds of bricks in the trunk of our autolaunch car.

[Stephen Damon]

Frank W. What kind of wire are people using and where to get it, Please. Just now learning about winch use.

[Frank Whiteley]

Post by Stephen Damon
Frank W. What kind of wire are people using and where to get it, Please. Just now learning about winch use.

WRT Reverse Pulley, wire was 13 gauge BS5216 'Shiney Bright" piano wire. 10 gauge was tried but the weight caused flats to wear more quickly on the 'memory' coils in the wire, so would break more often. No idea where to get in bulk. Not sure this would be insurable in the US. The Cotswold system was retired a few years ago. There was another system at Essex GC at North Weald also. Rather different design with high inertial pulleys.

Parafil is a sole-source product AFAIK. Google is your friend.

Winching in the US. We formerly used solid wire, then migrated to 3/16" 7/7 galvanized steel wire rope. Not insurable under the SSA Group Plan any longer. Now using Amsteel Blue. I have a vendor that has been pretty consistent with best pricing. However, it may be possible to secure Plasma 12 (virtually the same) for similar but I've never pushed a distributor for best price. UHMWPE ropes come in different flavors. The ropes mentioned are the higher performance brands. Dyneema 75 is the base fiber for Amsteel Blue. Spectra is the base product for Plasma12 There is a Yahoo group called winchdesign. Become a member.

Frank Whiteley

[Bill T]

I don't think I've ever felt the rear ended get light on my truck. We've used Dodge Ram 2500, my 2007 5.7L Tundra, and a newer Toyota FJ with no reports of rear end lift.
BillT

[Roy Pentecost]

Having done both in the UK, at two different sites, I can compare an
contrast:
1. Auto-tow needs a hard surface, realistically at least 1000m an
preferably nearer 2000m long. Winch launch can be done off grass surface
needing only a route for cable tow out using a tractor or 4x4.
2. Winching only accelerates the glider (plus a small amount of engine
transmission and drum inertia) thus reaching take-off speed takes much les
time than auto-tow where you also accelerate close to 2 tons of auto a
well as the glider (say about 0.6 tons). Typical winch launch reache
take-off speed in 2-3 seconds whereas auto tow takes 10-15 seconds to ge
airborne. This longer ground roll also exacerbates cable wear (along th
hard abrasive surface for auto-tow, compared to soft grass surfaces o
winch strips).
3. The angle of pull is more favourable as the winch is always further awa
than the auto would be at any given point. There is rather more down tha
forward pull with an auto, mid-climb onwards. This increases cable tensio
(limited by the weak link) for a given level of 'thrust' so makes cabl
breaks more likely and reduces the amount you can use back pressure t
increase the angle of attack and hence climb rate.
4. With an auto, you have to terminate the climb before the end of th
runway so you can stretch out the cable, as it falls by parachute, so i
does not end up in a big knotted pile. This reduces the effective useabl
runway length.
5. Heavy cars with auto transmission generally need a lot more maintenanc
than a winch (lots more effort in accelerating and decelerating the to
vehicle itself).
My experience is that, all other things being equal, you typically ge
around 50% higher for a given runway length using a winch.
Ther may be occasions, such as on expeditions, when auto-tow is expedien
but for regular training operations such as those done in Europe, you can'
beat the winch.

Regards,
Roy Pentecost

[Roy Pentecost]

Yes I've also done reverse pulley.
It solves a few of the auto-tow issues: Angle of pull, length to tow ou
cable after release but still leaves the others: Time and distance t
accelerate great moving mass. It also introduces much more cable wear a
part of the cable is always on the ground. Reverse pulley is better tha
straight tow but still less effective than the winch.

Post by Roy Pentecost
Having done both in the UK, at two different sites, I can compare an
1. Auto-tow needs a hard surface, realistically at least 1000m an
preferably nearer 2000m long. Winch launch can be done off grass surface
needing only a route for cable tow out using a tractor or 4x4.
2. Winching only accelerates the glider (plus a small amount of engine
transmission and drum inertia) thus reaching take-off speed takes muc

les

Post by Roy Pentecost
time than auto-tow where you also accelerate close to 2 tons of auto a
well as the glider (say about 0.6 tons). Typical winch launch reache
take-off speed in 2-3 seconds whereas auto tow takes 10-15 seconds to ge
airborne. This longer ground roll also exacerbates cable wear (along th
hard abrasive surface for auto-tow, compared to soft grass surfaces o
winch strips).
3. The angle of pull is more favourable as the winch is always furthe

awa

Post by Roy Pentecost
than the auto would be at any given point. There is rather more down tha
forward pull with an auto, mid-climb onwards. This increases cable tensio
(limited by the weak link) for a given level of 'thrust' so makes cabl
breaks more likely and reduces the amount you can use back pressure t
increase the angle of attack and hence climb rate.
4. With an auto, you have to terminate the climb before the end of th
runway so you can stretch out the cable, as it falls by parachute, so i
does not end up in a big knotted pile. This reduces the effective useabl
runway length.
5. Heavy cars with auto transmission generally need a lot more maintenanc
than a winch (lots more effort in accelerating and decelerating the to
vehicle itself).
My experience is that, all other things being equal, you typically ge
around 50% higher for a given runway length using a winch.
Ther may be occasions, such as on expeditions, when auto-tow is expedien
but for regular training operations such as those done in Europe, yo

can'

Post by Roy Pentecost
beat the winch.
Regards,
Roy Pentecost

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Chapter 3 of the classic American Soaring Handbook has about 23 pages on Auto Tow with several illustrations including a homebuilt car tow release and a technical discussion of the process. 3,500' of runway is the minimum runway length suggested so the sailplane can (barely) make a 360 degree circle to land. Straight-line auto tow and auto tow with pulley are discussed in detail.

As simple as it appears, auto tow should be carefully researched. Finding a sailplane pilot who has supervised auto tow is essential. A ground-launch endorsement from an authorized CFI per FAR 61.31(j) is required for the sailplane pilot unless "grandfathered" however proficiency is essential for both the pilot and the driver. An observer in the auto is important for safety. Density altitude will affect the power of the auto motor and the speed required for the sailplane to launch.

One possible issue with auto tow on airports with airplane traffic is that the cable cannot be reeled in unless a winch system is mounted on the back of a pick-up truck. Some of the hang glider folks have developed this system.

Read the article in the May-June 1955 SOARING magazine, "The Elimination of Guess-Work in Auto Towing" by Otto Zauner and Art Heavener.

The American Soaring Handbook was a binder of 10 chapters on essential aspects that a SSA club needed to know about maintenance, auto, winch and aerotow launching, instruments and much more. Long out of print this handy 6"x9" blue binder might be found on dusty bookshelves in gliderport clubhouses around the USA. Often listed on E-bay and internet book searches such as Albris, this valuable collection of knowledge written by some of the legends of soaring is essential reading. About $25 if all of the 10 chapters are included in the binder.

For an entertaining (but not instructional) video of auto tow watch the "Reunion" episode of the '50's Sci-Fi TV show, "One Step Beyond".

[Papa3]

Two excellent posts above from Roy and Burt. I learned partially on auto tow, with maybe 25 launches done by that method over the space of two winters (we would put the towplane away for the winter and revert to auto towing). Roy summarizes the operational aspects beautifully. As far as equipment, we used "junker" big-block American iron from the early and mid 1970s. The Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser wagon was ideal, since it has a built-in observer seat in the rear. We found that for whatever reason, auto-towing seemed to put a lot of wear and tear on the transition and drive train. Moderately hard acceleration with the load of the glider followed by near-panic stopping repeatedly at the other end meant that I got to be a pretty decent auto mechanic. At our facility, we had 3,000 foot paved with 800 or so grass overrun. With the glider's tail right in the weeds, the car was just on the runway. That gave us the full 3,000 to accelerate, cruise, then stop. We normally got about 600 feet of altitude, though 700 or even 800 was possible if the wind was right down the runway.

So, it's definitely a viable option, especially for early training. Practically, we ended up getting maybe 8-10 launches during a session before something broke on the vehicle or we had a big rope break. We spent a lot of time fixing per every minute of aviating, but when you're in college, $5 tows are attractive!

Erik Mann (P3)

[Ross Briegleb]

Post by Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
Chapter 3 of the classic American Soaring Handbook has about 23 pages on
Au=
to Tow with several illustrations including a homebuilt car tow release
and=
a technical discussion of the process. 3,500' of runway is the minimum
ru=
nway length suggested so the sailplane can (barely) make a 360 degree
circl=
e to land. Straight-line auto tow and auto tow with pulley are discussed
i=
n detail. =20
As simple as it appears, auto tow should be carefully researched. Finding
a=
sailplane pilot who has supervised auto tow is essential. A
ground-launch=
endorsement from an authorized CFI per FAR 61.31(j) is required for the
sa=
ilplane pilot unless "grandfathered" however proficiency is essential for
b=
oth the pilot and the driver. An observer in the auto is important for
saf=
ety. Density altitude will affect the power of the auto motor and the
spee=
d required for the sailplane to launch.
One possible issue with auto tow on airports with airplane traffic is

that

Post by Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
=
the cable cannot be reeled in unless a winch system is mounted on the

back

Post by Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
=
of a pick-up truck. Some of the hang glider folks have developed this
syst=
em.=20
Read the article in the May-June 1955 SOARING magazine, "The Elimination
of=
Guess-Work in Auto Towing" by Otto Zauner and Art Heavener. =20
The American Soaring Handbook was a binder of 10 chapters on essential
aspe=
cts that a SSA club needed to know about maintenance, auto, winch and
aerot=
ow launching, instruments and much more. Long out of print this handy
6"x9=
" blue binder might be found on dusty bookshelves in gliderport

clubhouses

Post by Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
=
around the USA. Often listed on E-bay and internet book searches such as
A=
lbris, this valuable collection of knowledge written by some of the
legends=
of soaring is essential reading. About $25 if all of the 10 chapters

are

Post by Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
=
included in the binder.
For an entertaining (but not instructional) video of auto tow watch the
"Re=
union" episode of the '50's Sci-Fi TV show, "One Step Beyond".
Yep, my dad was the glider pilot and I was the tow car driver . I was

fifteen then. Ross
Ross Briegleb

[Muttley]

Hi Sean
The Dublin Gliding Club is doing every year an expedition to the Beaches on the Dingle Peninsula in the South of Ireland where gliders are car towed see enclosed or others on You Tube
https://vimeo.com/108137453

Regards
Bruno

[Tango Eight]

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
Sean
7T

It's only as economical as your space and labor happens to be. Ideal for a dry lake. Hobbs is sort of a paved dry lake :-).

When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Papa3]

Post by Tango Eight
When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
-Evan Ludeman / T8

That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Papa3

Post by Tango Eight
When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
-Evan Ludeman / T8

That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.

All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

[Papa3]

Post by h***@gmail.com
All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

We had a very nice rig for that. The car end had Schweizer tow release mounted on a steel plate. The plate was hinged for freedom in the vertical axis. The plate and associated structure was mounted on a ball coupling that rode on the car's towball, allowing freedom in the horizontal axis. The rig had the usual Schweizer release rope (same as a towplane), so the back seat observer held the release rope in his hand and pulled it in an emergency. We also had a crash-ax mounted in back as an extra safety measure.

[Tango Eight]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Papa3

Post by Tango Eight
When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
-Evan Ludeman / T8

That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.

All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars?

We had a Schweizer tow hook mounted in place of a hitch ball.

-Evan

[Steve Leonard]

Post by h***@gmail.com
All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

Yikes! Like the others, we have a Schweizer hitch on a swivel so it is always line up with the rope tension, and a cable or cord to operate it. On my setup, I also have a hydraulic cylinder between the car and the hitch, with a gauge up front so I can see line tension and use this to help set the right speed.

Steve Leonard

[Dan Marotta]

At the Las Vegas tow weekend, they have a release mounted to the
receiver of the vehicle and the release rope routed to the observer.

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Papa3

Post by Tango Eight
When I was a student pilot, we did 2-33 "cat shots" off Harris Hill with two old tow ropes spliced together, later with a proper 400' cable, into gentle late afternoon ridge lift, all powered by an old 307 Chevelle with questionable brakes (thanks Dave!). A total gas, never to be forgotten. Driving the car (which I did a lot) was even more exciting than flying the glider. The brow of the hill slopes off in a fashion that makes the nerves a little uneasy... especially with those rusty four wheel drum brakes.
-Evan Ludeman / T8

That reminded me. The far end of our runway had a steep dropoff into a corn field. On one tow, as I eased off the gas and got on the brakes... there weren't any. Or not much. Went all Dukes of Hazard and luckily landed safely on the downslope, ending up with the hood in the corn. Funny now, but actually a pretty dicey situation. So driver/observer safety in the tow vehicle is definitely another consideration depending on the field conditions/configuration.

All the winches I flew on in Europe had guillotines to cut the cable in an emergency (mandated in Germany). How do you do that with cars? I witnessed a near fatal accident with hanglider being towed by a car where the pilot flew a neat arc that ended with an impact. When I asked the person on the bed of the towing pickup how he had planned to sever the rope in such an event, he showed me his pocket knife!

[Sean Fidler]

Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.

We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.

My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.

I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!

Anyway...back to work.

[Dan Marotta]

Tow pilot lobby? Ha!

Send them to Moriarty so I can step down from towing. It may be fun for
time builders or youngsters but, for me, it's just plain underpaid work
which takes time away from my soaring.

Post by Sean Fidler
Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.
We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.
My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.
I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!
Anyway...back to work.

[WB]

Post by Sean Fidler
Wow! Great posts. I'll need time to read it all. Thanks.
We have an auto-tow rig in Ionia that has been used on rare occasion. Recently, a clinic was done in Cadillac and it was quite successful from what I understand. A number of people got sign offs, etc. But then it died again.
My honest opinion. Aerotowing is popular because the tow pilot lobby likes flying tow planes for free, building hours, etc. We should be auto-towing more! Especially in early training. It's a safe, viable and great option and if done with great care (as aero and winch are) it could be really impactful to lowering costs and increasing the number of youth pilots being trained.
I think the public would get a kick out of seeing cars towing up gliders at airports! There is just something cool about it!
Anyway...back to work.

I'm an enthusiastic advocate of ground launching, however, at least in the U.S., tow planes provide operational flexibility that winches and auto launch do not. Towplanes can operate out of fields that are too short/narrow for ground launch operations (getting your winch line out of trees is no fun). Try to take a winch somewhere besides the home field. It can be anything but straightforward to insure a winch for transport and operation anywhere but your home field. Getting permission for ground launching at a different field can be difficult (someone else mentioned in another thread about the lost opportunity to have glider operations to ever be accepted as normal in the U.S.). Not to mention being able to choose a launch height, aero retrieve/transport of gliders, contest towing, etc.

We do need more ground launching in the U.S., but most of our clubs and commercial ops cannot afford time and/or money to do both aerotow and ground launch other than as an occasional exercise.

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

Post by WB
I'm an enthusiastic advocate of ground launching, however, at least in the U.S., tow planes provide operational flexibility that winches and auto launch do not. Towplanes can operate out of fields that are too short/narrow for ground launch operations (getting your winch line out of trees is no fun). Try to take a winch somewhere besides the home field. It can be anything but straightforward to insure a winch for transport and operation anywhere but your home field. Getting permission for ground launching at a different field can be difficult (someone else mentioned in another thread about the lost opportunity to have glider operations to ever be accepted as normal in the U.S.). Not to mention being able to choose a launch height, aero retrieve/transport of gliders, contest towing, etc.
We do need more ground launching in the U.S., but most of our clubs and commercial ops cannot afford time and/or money to do both aerotow and ground launch other than as an occasional exercise.

All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.

Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.

If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.

SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.

[Sean Fidler]

From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...

"Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp

Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others
Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch
Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)
Get away rate for cross country: 75%

Highlights:
Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual (Thank you Stan & Carol)
Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr

Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow pilots, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!

Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford starter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing) controlled by a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in trunk. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow release mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio communication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The driver is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add 5mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off) full to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an end!).

<Note: the glider has a window that, if looked out of, shows the whole operation. So remind the driver as you see her, or him nearing the end.>

For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For those that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less cost and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing technique is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes, the safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly functioning, carefully inspected tow releases.

<sidenote - one fine lady got to boast that she jerked three guys off and kept them all up at the same time>

Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
7T

[Frank Whiteley]

Post by Sean Fidler
From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...
"Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp
Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others
Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch
Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)
Get away rate for cross country: 75%
Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual (Thank you Stan & Carol)
Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr
Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow pilots, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!
Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford starter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing) controlled by a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in trunk. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow release mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio communication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The driver is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add 5mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off) full to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an end!).
<Note: the glider has a window that, if looked out of, shows the whole operation. So remind the driver as you see her, or him nearing the end.>
For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For those that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less cost and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing technique is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes, the safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly functioning, carefully inspected tow releases.
<sidenote - one fine lady got to boast that she jerked three guys off and kept them all up at the same time>
Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
7T

The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years. Parafil was used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without appreciable wear. Parafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study, http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil. 1500ft plus launches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with 275hp. We just pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled though we did snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-ATC winches. Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from a stolen Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.

I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service before the club folded.

Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.

Frank Whiteley

[Nigel Pocock]

Post by Frank Whiteley
The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.

Parafil

Post by Frank Whiteley
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without

appreciable wear.

Post by Frank Whiteley
P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,

http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf

Post by Frank Whiteley
The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.

1500ft plus

Post by Frank Whiteley
l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with

275hp. We

Post by Frank Whiteley
jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled

though we did

Post by Frank Whiteley
=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the

runway.

Post by Frank Whiteley
That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-

ATC

Post by Frank Whiteley
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from

a stolen

Post by Frank Whiteley
=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service

before the

Post by Frank Whiteley
c=
lub folded.
Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.

I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.

[Ken Fixter]

Post by Frank Whiteley

Post by Frank Whiteley
The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.

Parafil

Post by Frank Whiteley
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without

appreciable wear.

Post by Frank Whiteley
P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,

http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf

Post by Frank Whiteley
The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.

1500ft plus

Post by Frank Whiteley
l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with

275hp. We

Post by Frank Whiteley
jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled

though we did

Post by Frank Whiteley
=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the

runway.

Post by Frank Whiteley
That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-

ATC

Post by Frank Whiteley
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from

a stolen

Post by Frank Whiteley
=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service

before the

Post by Frank Whiteley
c=
lub folded.
Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.
I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.

For info.

Post by Frank Whiteley
The RR engine powered winch is at north wales gliding club, we are

putting it back in service as our chevy powered winch destroyed its
gearbox last sunday with wave all over the site so the pw6 pilot the only
launch of the day managed to get a nice wave flight, so the RR will get
another lease of life starting this week end with a bit of luck.
KF.

[Tony]

I've had a lot of fun Auto Towing at Sunflower in the last few years. Twice when I've had family visiting, we've taken them up in the 2-33 on Auto Tow, with Leah driving and me flying. Everyone gets involved in the operation, everyone has fun, and it's cheap.

We have a lot of room. We usually start the launch from wherever the glider stopped on landing, usually with around 6000 feet remaining. Usually we use a 2000 foot-ish long rope. Usually we get our 2-33 to around 1000 feet AGL without much extra effort. We could accelerate faster, we could pull harder, and we would have more rope breaks and more wear and tear on the car and the glider. There is a lot of extra wear and tear on everything involved, whether winch launching or auto towing, to get that last 10% of altitude.

When I was giving my grandparents rides and my little sister her first flying lessons on Labor Day, we had a great wind gradient and our best launch in the 2-33 was 1500 AGL. This is on the "nose" aerotow hook.

One of our club members has built a few pulleys but we haven't had a chance to test them out. I am kind of more interested in a 3:1 reduction with a moving and fixed pulley. This allows the towing car to also have a tow release in case the glider can't release. Also reduces the car speed, increases acceleration, and allows you to use less runway.

We've almost exclusively been auto towing the last few years with my 3.6L 2014 Subaru Outback with a homemade schweizer-like tow release in the receiver hitch.

I'd like to get a hitch mounted rope rewinder along with the tow release. Then I think that with a parachute on the glider end we could wind the rope in before the end hit the ground, greatly reducing our wear and tear and not hurting the turn around time much.

Sometimes when I'm dreaming I think that a mobile glider school with an auto tow rig and a two seater on a trailer could be fun. There are a lot of people out there who are interested in flying gliders but just don't live within a convenient distance to a club or commercial operation.

After reading about Casey Aviation's Auto Towing (http://flycasey.com/auto-towing-a-glider/) we got some of the flat pull tape that he was talking about. It is cheap, available in long lengths, and plenty strong enough. Unfortunately it just didn't last at all on our rough old runway and its almost impossible to splice. At least it wasn't an expensive experiment.

[Frank Whiteley]

Post by Frank Whiteley

Post by Frank Whiteley
The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years.

Parafil

Post by Frank Whiteley
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without

appreciable wear.

Post by Frank Whiteley
P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,

http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf

Post by Frank Whiteley
The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil.

1500ft plus

Post by Frank Whiteley
l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with

275hp. We

Post by Frank Whiteley
jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled

though we did

Post by Frank Whiteley
=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the

runway.

Post by Frank Whiteley
That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-

ATC

Post by Frank Whiteley
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from

a stolen

Post by Frank Whiteley
=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service

before the

Post by Frank Whiteley
c=
lub folded.
Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
Frank Whiteley

I learned to fly at Enstone in the late 70s but my recollections of
parafil are very different. Once the outer sheath had been worn
through on retrieves the cable broke on about 1 in 5 launches.
Since we were using scrapper cars we mounted the cable
attatchment in the middle of the roof. This solved the problem of
lifting the weight off the rear wheels when towing.
We also built a special which used a Ford Transit pickup with a mid
mounted 4.2litre Jaguar engine. We retained the original axle which
gave us very good acceleration but a top speed of about 60mph.
I now fly at Lasham which used to use Autotow. We now use
modern winches which give better and safer launches to 1700-
2000ft on a normal day. The cost of buying, maintaining and
running costs of autotow were much higher than the winch in the
UK. Gasoline about $7.50 a gallon here. Winch runs on LPG.

Interesting. I can only recall 2-3 repairs. We knotted the dacron in a protective rubber bumper. We did move in winches within a year, so I really only had a single season with the parafil. Enjoyed the Jag though.

Frank Whiteley

[Ken Fixter]

Post by Sean Fidler
From the guy who ran the Cadilac auto-tow camp last year...
=20
"Auto-tow pointers" - Cadillac, MI camp
=20
Gliders: ASW12, ASK21, ASW15, RS15, and some others =20
Tow vehicle: Late model Ford Fairmont, V8, 305 cubic inch=20
Tow rope: Initially, dacron 1500 ft The next year spectra 1500ft
Runway length 5200 ft (field elevation - 800 msl)
Average altitude gain 1000 to 1200 ft (occasionally 1500ft)=20
Get away rate for cross country: 75%
=20
Highlights: =20
Six pilots auto-tow launch endorsed in one day and a 12-year annual

(Than=
k you Stan & Carol)

Post by Sean Fidler
Over 100 hours of XC in the 12 from auto-tow in 1 yr=20
=20
Lowlights: introduced to a club with many solo pilots, not many tow

pilo=
ts, and left the unit with them for a year. They never used it!

Post by Sean Fidler
=20
Auto-Tow unit description: 1500 ft.rope on a reel powered by a Ford

star=
ter motor 1950's vintage (exposed shaft beyond motor housing)

controlled

by=
a dead man type switch. Reel in time about 1 minute. Easily fits in
trun=
k. The emergency release mechanism is a larger copy of Schweizer tow
relea=
se mounted to a hitch with a rope to the driver. The driver has radio
comm=
unication to glider. The driver is any person that is willing. The
driver=
is instructed to accelerate smoothly until glider lifts off and then add
5=
mph unless told otherwise. Normally, this meant (after glider lift off)
fu=
ll to the floorboard (and to remember that the runway does have an

end!). =

=20

Post by Sean Fidler
=20
=20
=20
For those of you that think this technique is not proper well, ok. For

t=
hose that are willing, this is a way to launch sailplane with: 1) less
cost=
and 2) no need for a tow pilot or tow aircraft. This auto-towing
techniqu=
e is ideal for any "club" with a willing group of two or more. Oh yes,
the=
safety checks were performed on all gliders used. They all had properly
f=
unctioning, carefully inspected tow releases. =20

Post by Sean Fidler
=20
=20
Sean (still shaking my head at the sidenote).
7T

The former Enstone GC in the UK used autotow for several years. Parafil
wa=
s used as it could be dragged along the tarmac without appreciable

wear.

P=
arafil is not pulley friendly (they tried). It was easily spliced.
Case study,

http://linearcomposites.net/media/parafil_case_study_13.pdf

The club moved on to winches before we wore out the parafil. 1500ft

plus

l=
aunches were done on a 500m length using an XJ-6 Jaguar with 275hp.

We

jus=
t pulled it back to the launch point at 65mph. Near tangled though we

did

=
snag a couple of things in the tall grass on the north side of the

runway.

That engine replaced the 150hp Bedford diesel in one of the ex-ATC
winches.=
Another winch was refitted with the motor and transmission from a

stolen

=
Rolls Royce that was burned on the airfield one night.
I don't think the third ex-ATC winch was ever put into service before the
c=
lub folded.
Maybe some lurker knows the fate of those winches.
Frank Whiteley

For info
The winch with RR engine is at north wales gliding club,
our other winch destroyed it,s gearbox on sunday so the Rolls Royce is to
be put back to work this weekend with some luck.
KF

[WB]

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.
Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.
If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.
SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.

I would not classify a 1000m field as particularly short. I have operated winch and auto launch off of shorter fields, but it is not too good for anything but pattern practice. I would say that in some ways winching can do something that aerotow would not do as well: With a winch you only need 1000 feet (or less) of launching/landing area if the winch can be placed a sufficient distance beyond the "runway" end. That opens up a lot of possibilities for flying from non-airports. I agree that when everything works correctly the winch line will not end up in the trees. However, there's always the pilot who forgets to correct for crosswind and drops the rope too far downwind or the line breaks and falls into the trees. Even the synthetics break occasionally. Timely replacement when worn makes breaks unlikely. And with synthetics we no longer have the problem of a highly conductive steel cable on power lines.

Glad to hear that SSA group plan covers winch transport. That may not have always been the case. Or, it might have just been the case that our self mobile winch was not insured for over the road. That winch left us a long time ago. Wish we had it back.

[Martin Gregorie]

Post by WB
I would not classify a 1000m field as particularly short.

Agreed. With a remotely placed winch, all you need is a launch and
landing area that's about 350-400m square.

In a southwesterly, pretty much our usual wind direction, we operate off
the 'diamond' in front of our club house. This is 390m on the SW axis and
300m across. We set up the launch point halfway along the southerly edge.
The winch is 1200m away at the far end of 22, a grass run 175m wide that
extends out of the diamond.

With this arrangement almost everybody, including many ab-initios, can
land in the first half of the 'diamond' and stop more or less in line
with the launch point, so a landed glider doesn't block the next winch
launch. In this wind the remainder of 22 is only used for aero-tows,
cable breaks and cable break training, though its available as a huge
safety margin if an ab-initio overshoots his first few landings.

Our Robins can easily launch the Puchacz or an ASK-21 from the diamond,
though this is normally only done for the first aero-tow of the day.

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

WB, I 'm glad you like winch launching. However, I do have just one tiny nit to pick just for the benefit of those not familiar with winch launch. Pilots don't "drop" the rope, they release it (or more likely, it auto-releases). Then the parachute opens preventing the rope from dropping too fast. That gives the winch operator plenty of time to wind in the rope all the way to the winch before it can hit the ground. There's usually less than 100' of rope left out when the winch stops.

If a winch is capable of it, the transmission can be shifted to overdrive and the 'chute ripped out of the sky at more than 100mph to minimize drift. Of course, the operator has to be absolutely certain he can stop the drum before the 'chute is pulled through the fairlead.

Post by WB

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
All of these objections to winch launch have been put to rest. If you want to see small field winch operations, use Google Earth to look at European, particularly German, glider airports. Many are as short as 1000m and surrounded by trees. Just pick club names from OLC and enter them in the GE search field.
Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks which is getting very rare with ultra-strong ropes.
If a pilot really thinks a distant tow is necessary, then use a sustainer from a winch launch.
SSA group insurance offers winch coverage for traveling to and operating at any airfield.

I would not classify a 1000m field as particularly short. I have operated winch and auto launch off of shorter fields, but it is not too good for anything but pattern practice. I would say that in some ways winching can do something that aerotow would not do as well: With a winch you only need 1000 feet (or less) of launching/landing area if the winch can be placed a sufficient distance beyond the "runway" end. That opens up a lot of possibilities for flying from non-airports. I agree that when everything works correctly the winch line will not end up in the trees. However, there's always the pilot who forgets to correct for crosswind and drops the rope too far downwind or the line breaks and falls into the trees. Even the synthetics break occasionally. Timely replacement when worn makes breaks unlikely. And with synthetics we no longer have the problem of a highly conductive steel cable on power lines.
Glad to hear that SSA group plan covers winch transport. That may not have always been the case. Or, it might have just been the case that our self mobile winch was not insured for over the road. That winch left us a long time ago. Wish we had it back.

[WB]

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
WB, I 'm glad you like winch launching. However, I do have just one tiny nit to pick just for the benefit of those not familiar with winch launch. Pilots don't "drop" the rope, they release it (or more likely, it auto-releases). Then the parachute opens preventing the rope from dropping too fast. That gives the winch operator plenty of time to wind in the rope all the way to the winch before it can hit the ground. There's usually less than 100' of rope left out when the winch stops.
If a winch is capable of it, the transmission can be shifted to overdrive and the 'chute ripped out of the sky at more than 100mph to minimize drift. Of course, the operator has to be absolutely certain he can stop the drum before the 'chute is pulled through

Yes, most of the time we did just let it back release. I would often shift our winch (the Eagle Winch, now at Philadelphia) into second gear to recover the line. Usually could lay it down right in front of the winch. Worked even better after the steel cable was replaced with Spectra.

[Dave Nadler]

Post by Sean Fidler
Anyway...back to work.

Aaarrggg! Stuff like that gives us nightmares Sean...

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

[BobW]

Post by Jonathan St. Cloud
One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released
over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before
releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one
turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

Hmmm...

I suspect this "truth" is more a statement of "the way aerotows normally are"
than "the realities of usable lift distribution." Reality as a self-fulfilling
prophecy, maybe?

In any event, BTDT insofar as brain-picking for "local knowledge" and
"locations of house thermals," but my experience throughout launch sites
(mostly aerotow) in the intermountain west (mostly Colorado and New Mexico)
has me concluding I can't think of one locale where it's *necessary* to "tow
over there" in order to find usable lift. Sure, some plains sites along the
east slope of the Colorado Rockies tend to start later than a tow into nearby
uplands, but my observation has been very few of the locals routinely take
advantage of that fact when time of launch is considered as a function of
release point. IOW, many tows "go to the hills" just because they can, and not
because it's necessary. Every single one of my launch sites has had convective
lift with easy reach of "above pattern height" releases, for ships of the
ubiquitous 2-33->35:1 performance range.

As for auto towing (exposed to that before winching, I was), popularity (or
lack thereof) has to do - so I reckon - with lack of familiarity; neither auto
towing or winching have been "popular" ("common" is probably a better
descriptor) in the U.S. because whatever critical mass may once have existed
disappeared when "cheap towplanes" became the norm after WW-II. Where they
exist(ed), my experience has been both were "hugely popular."

Bob W.

[Dan Marotta]

When I started ground launching, I was told that the glider taking off
often kicks off a thermal is there was a bubble of warm air that the
glider passed through. Because of that, on my ground launch safaris, I
always made a U-turn after release and flew back down the runway. I got
away every time from about 700'. Maybe I was just lucky...

Post by BobW

Post by Jonathan St. Cloud
One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released
over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before
releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one
turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

Hmmm...
I suspect this "truth" is more a statement of "the way aerotows
normally are" than "the realities of usable lift distribution."
Reality as a self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe?
In any event, BTDT insofar as brain-picking for "local knowledge" and
"locations of house thermals," but my experience throughout launch
sites (mostly aerotow) in the intermountain west (mostly Colorado and
New Mexico) has me concluding I can't think of one locale where it's
*necessary* to "tow over there" in order to find usable lift. Sure,
some plains sites along the east slope of the Colorado Rockies tend to
start later than a tow into nearby uplands, but my observation has
been very few of the locals routinely take advantage of that fact when
time of launch is considered as a function of release point. IOW, many
tows "go to the hills" just because they can, and not because it's
necessary. Every single one of my launch sites has had convective lift
with easy reach of "above pattern height" releases, for ships of the
ubiquitous 2-33->35:1 performance range.
As for auto towing (exposed to that before winching, I was),
popularity (or lack thereof) has to do - so I reckon - with lack of
familiarity; neither auto towing or winching have been "popular"
("common" is probably a better descriptor) in the U.S. because
whatever critical mass may once have existed disappeared when "cheap
towplanes" became the norm after WW-II. Where they exist(ed), my
experience has been both were "hugely popular."
Bob W.

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

Post by Jonathan St. Cloud
One reason winch or auto tows are not more popular is that you are released over the airpark. In an aero tow you can be towed to the lift before releasing. Yes, I know usually on soft days there is a thermal just as one turns downwind to base, but that is not the best place to thermal.

If you can get 2000' - 2500' over the airport, there's no need for a distant tow. If you disagree, get a turbo.

If you can find a thermal, why aero tow? If you can't, there probably aren't any so why aero tow?

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, October 9, 2015 at 5:59:49 PM UTC-5, >

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
If you can get 2000' - 2500' over the airport, there's no need for a distant tow. If you disagree, get a turbo.
If you can find a thermal, why aero tow? If you can't, there probably aren't any so why aero tow?

Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short, and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have looked at it and done the math...).

But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

Kirk
66

[Werner Schmidt]

Post by kirk.stant
Well, if your glider field is only 2400' long, with a highway at one
end and a road at the other, you pretty much have to aero tow. We
would love to have a winch at SLSA, but our field is just too short,
and we have 2 nice Pawnees and a nice 180 Supercub, and our tows are
cheap - so THAT is why we don't use a winch (trust me, we have
looked at it and done the math...).
But for clubs that have access to a nice long airport, I agree that
a modern winch is definitely the way to go!

if it's this location:

<https://www.google.de/maps/@38.7785294,-89.6473942,1389m/data=!3m1!1e3>

=> then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
ft., if Google does measure it correct. That's not worse than at our place:

<https://www.google.de/maps/@53.9688337,10.221559,1102m/data=!3m1!1e3>

About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.

We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)

Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.

regards
Werner

[kirk.stant]

Post by Werner Schmidt
=> then you could - if according to local laws / rules, which I don't
know - perhaps place the "launching runway" (I don't know the correct
term in english) a bit more in the east, where your grass strip is
longer, so you could start respectively winch from a point more in
south. The distance between plane and winch would grow to about 2,900
About 2,600 ft. distance between winch and starting point, and the
options of emergency land-outs are not really better than yours, if
I estimate this right from the google map's view.
We almost only use a winch to launch our gliders ... winch has 2 drums,
7 mm steel cable, a 330 hp Turbo Diesel engine with torque converter and
fixed transmission. Max. release height is up to 1,500 ft. (wood: K8,
K6) or about 1,100-1,200 ft. (glass ships), depending on wind speed,
winch driver's and pilot's skill :-)
Given a good day, XC distances flown from our field are up to 1,000 km -
given a bad day, just training pattern.
regards
Werner

Werner,

You found us! Yes, we could use 2600 of the current runway for taking off (the threshold is displaced for landing over the road, that doesn't apply for takeoffs). We have looked at that - and so far the consensus it that it just isn't worth the effort.

We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl. Arrggghh!

But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) - maybe we can get some interest going. I for one would love to have a winch option!

(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Cheers,

Kirk

[d***@gmail.com]

Didn't somebody have a winch down near St.Louis? I doubt you'll find a Demo winch in the midwest. Cross Country up in Faribault might come to you but it will cost a mint. What you might do is form a group to go and do some site visits and clinics. You might ask them to simulate your field length. No matter what you discover you won't change the minds of the "experts" but you will learn a lot and you'll be suprised at some of those who do convert. Our club started a project about 2 years ago and we will be taking delivery of our winch in a month or so. Our runway is about 3000ft long.
It can be done...
-Doug

[s***@yahoo.com]

I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!

If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.


John

[Bruce Hoult]

Post by s***@yahoo.com
I did my first 100+ flights as a private pilot on auto two. In Hobbs we used a 2000 ft wire, on 8000 ft of paved runway. In Odessa we used a 1200 ft poly rope on a 5000 ft paved runway. On the short rope we could get a launch of 800-900 feet in a 1-26. It was fun, and cheap! The best thing ( other than the price) was the fact that you had to get good at scratching around in whatever you could find. Those "scratching" skills have come in handy a few times for sure!
If you have a long paved runway, 5000 ft or more, auto tow is a great way to fly.

I'm sure it would be, but I can't think of any paved runway of even 4000 ft in NZ that hasn't got B1900s, Q300s, and/or warbirds who would be very upset about people auto-towing gliders there!

It's far easier to find 2000 ft of landable grass, or even 1500 ft of landable grass with unlandable extension to 5000 - 6000 ft for a wire.

[Werner Schmidt]

Post by kirk.stant
You found us!

wasn't too hard :-)

Post by kirk.stant
We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

Fuel still too cheap? ;-)

Post by kirk.stant
(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)

Post by kirk.stant
As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
Arrggghh!

Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
pilots!

Post by kirk.stant
But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
maybe we can get some interest going.

Ah, and now, how did it work out?

Regards
Werner

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Werner Schmidt

Post by kirk.stant
You found us!

wasn't too hard :-)

Post by kirk.stant
We have talked about trying to get a winch demo at our field to find
out it we should look more carefully at a winch - but as we already
have 2 nice Pawnees, there is not much interest.

Fuel still too cheap? ;-)

Post by kirk.stant
(But I do love towing with the Pawnee... ;^)

Oh, I understand, however i'm not flying powered planes :-)

Post by kirk.stant
As an aside, one of the disadvantages of using aero tow is that
everybody gets used to 3000' tows and can't thermal down low! Even on
booming days I'll tow them through the house thermal at 2000' but
they will grimly hang on then release in sink, spot on 3000' agl.
Arrggghh!

Yeah. Arrggghh. I like the winch; it's more of a sport and it's training
your skills. And I also like to sit on the winch and launch my fellow
pilots!

Post by kirk.stant
But I will bring up your point at our next club meeting (tomorrow) -
maybe we can get some interest going.

Ah, and now, how did it work out?
Regards
Werner

Danke Werner!

Winch training is in my humble opinion the key to being comfortable down low (shout-out to Dan for sticking to his un-popular views). I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to 1,500. If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today. Once or twice a year I have to take a relight. I cherish the feeling of connecting and working a weak thermal early in the day and making my own altitude. If it doesn't work for others, I don't care. Close to the field my personal limit is 500'. Instructors use me as the 'bad example'. Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals. Wouldn't want to miss my training on the winch back in Oerlinghausen and at the Luftsportverein Hameln.

Herb

[c***@gmail.com]

IIRC, in the old days a ground launch signoff was required before the commercial glider test. We would do it once a year at the Soaring Society of Dayton (now Caesar Creek Soaring Club) at our Richmond, IN airport, which had 3 paved runways, including two with paved taxiways that we operated off of. 5000-5500'. This was the late 1960s and the age of the big block V-8 horsepower wars so someone always seemed eager to volunteer their vehicle to show it off (probably not a second time, though). We got high enough to do a full pattern in a 2-22. Because it conflicted with our normal ops, we tended to pick an overcast day, fairly calm. A Schweizer tow hook was mounted on the hitch ball and someone sat in the back to pull the cord if necessary. I don't think it was hinged to track the wire direction so I suspect it would have been difficult to release under load. The only drama was how fast the glider climbed compared with aerotow. The biggest problem was the old wire breaking every few tows. It was a big deal to lay everything out and splice the wire a few times so we never did it more than was necessary to get the ground launch sign off for whomever was going up for their test.

I've had a couple of auto pulley tows. Wild! Aileron control before the wing runner even takes a step. These were just to get high enough from a grass strip to turn out over the ridge so I don't know what it's like for a full tow.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

[Steve Leonard]

We do some auto towing at Sunflower in Kansas. Ex Military base, 7000 foot long runway. Surface is roughly the equivalent of The Great Barrier Reef as far as the rope is concerned. The majority of the wear seems to happen when dragging the rope back after the launch, as it does not take too long for all 2000 or so feet to be off the ground. We have cracks in the pavement that has some grass growing up through them, so you can reduce the wear some by pulling the rope back with it in/on that grass. We do not put a chute on the rope, but just let it fall. The fun comes in turning the car around, and trying to be within 50 feet of the end of the rope when it hits the ground. Yep, I have done it. With a full size Chevy G-20 van!

Another option that has been used is a wind up winch on the tow vehicle. Once the vehicle is stopped, the crew goes to the back, operates the wind up winch (have seen both gas and electric version), then drive back, and lay out the rope again.

Pay Out winch probably works better for hang gliders than for our sailplanes, as the car has to go faster than the glider in order to pay out any line. And in light winds, the glider may need the car to run 60 MPH or more for straight towing, so even faster for pay-out towing. Faster yet for higher elevations (Sunflower is 1500 feet MSL). Gary Boggs has used a pay-out system quite successfully, so it is not impossible to do. Just maybe not so good for the planes that need a bit more speed, unless operating from a drive lakebed.

Fixed pulley at the upwind end opens up lots of possibilities. Especially since the glider can no longer pick up the tow car! Bring on the Z06 Corvettes if you have got pavement! You wanted winch acceleration, now you have got it!

As to wear and tear on the vehicle and its drive train, do an auto tow with a vehicle with an auto transmission that also has a tachometer. Then, drive in the same gear (count shifts from start) at the same speed without the load of the glider. You will probably discover that the torque converter is not locked up when launching the glider (much higher RPM during the glider tow). So, you are generating a lot of extra heat in the transmission on each tow. Best bet for auto tow would be a big block with a manual transmission, and ability to start out in second gear, so you don't have to shift.

It is fun. Get a new car. Get the extended drive train warranty. When the tranny goes out, don't mention you have been launching gliders. :-)

Steve Leonard

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
Sean
7T

Sean, I've done a lot of both auto tows and winch launches. The low cost of auto tow is illusionary because people tend to ignore the costs associated with the tow car. Auto towing is really, really hard on a car. Modern gliders need 60 - 65 knots to safely rotate into the climb phase so the tow car is doing full throttle 0 - 75 mph on every tow followed by maximum effort braking to stop. It's basically drag racing so maintenance and tire replacement become a huge cost. Auto tow operations typically use a noob's car - until the owner figures out the wear and tear his vehicle is subject to.

As other poster pointed out, it also takes a LOT of room. To get decent height you need a long rope which takes up a large chunk of runway before anything gets rolling. Then, you need the acceleration distance for the car before the glider can start the climb. Finally, the tow must end so as to leave enough distance for the tow car to stop before running off the end of the runway.

If unlimited space is available as on Mojave dry lakes, then auto tow sorta makes sense but with any runway less than 5500 feet long, winches will get you higher and cost you less money doing it.

[Dan Marotta]

Not quite as exciting as winching since the power to weight ratio is
less but as effective if you have the room. Still, it's a heck of a lot
of fun! Definitely cheaper than a winch since somebody always has a
capable vehicle.

I've been on two ground launch safaris with my partner and our LS-6a.
We used his Jeep Grand Cherokee once and my Ford F-150 the other time.
We would take turns flying and driving (pulling the trailer) and every
flight was a straight out adventure. Everywhere we went we were well
received by airport management and never had problems with departing any
airport. Over 6-8 days we would fly a large circuit around the
southwest USA.

I'll be ground launching off of Roach Dry Lake south of Las Vegas, NV in
a couple of weeks during the LVVSA's twice annually ground launch
weekend. What a hoot!

Dan, 5J

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.
When cost is considered, auto-towing has to be far more affordable than even winching. Maybe $1.50 per tow, max? In aviation, the cost is always critical. Especially in gliding club environments. Aerotows are $30-50 per tow. Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.
Auto-tow procedure seems fairly simple. 1) Steady strong acceleration until the glider comes airborne, then 2) add 5mph and 3) hold that speed until you hear differently from the pilot. Of course, 4) stop at the end of the runway :-).
Why is auto-towing not a mainstream method of getting gliders airborne?
I saw auto-towing happen regularly at Hobbs this year (my first visit). It was quite graceful and almost exotic. To be honest, it looks even more fun than winching.
I am very interested in learning what you know, your thoughts and your opinions.
Sean
7T

[f***@gmail.com]

The Douglas County Composite Squadron (Minden) of CAP has one or two auto-tow clinics every year. We find them a good way to introduce ground launch operations to the CAP members, but also find them pretty labor intensive, hard on tow vehicle and rope, and more of a novelty than a good way to launch gliders.

By labor intensive, I mean we have at least three people in the tow vehicle (a 4WD pickup truck with auto transmission in tow mode so it doesn't try to shift into 4th gear). The three people are driver, person beside driver who communicates with glider and launch crew, and person in the back who can release the rope in an emergency or at the end of the run. Then we have a wing runner, a signal person beside the wing runner to communicate between the truck and the glider, and a driver for a retrieve vehicle that hooks onto the glider end of the rope to pull it back to the launch position. That's a lot of people, and we could ideally operate with one or two less, but in CAP we want to involve everyone.

We use a 2000' long rope on a 6000' long runway (we actually use a hard dirt area beside the runway because there are lights on the runway that would suffer if we tried to auto tow there). We generally get 900-1100' altitude on launch, depending on wind and the pilot's skill. We have a specially fabricated tow hook that fits into the truck's receiver hitch. It has a swivel so the hook is always aligned with the rope and a Tost release at the end.

Having the pilot drop the rope where it will fall over the tow area is essential for us, as we have obstacles to each side (runway lights to the north and a chain link fence to the south). I remember one retrieve when the pilot dropped the rope in such a place that the wind carried it over the chain link fence. That one lasted one and a half hours.

Despite the fact that most flights are 5-10 minutes long (we are, after all, practicing launch, not soaring) we generally don't get more than 15 launches out of an 8 hour day. I think the most we've ever gotten was 25 launches. That gives you an idea of how long staging, launching, retrieving and re-staging takes. Not as efficient as we might be, but we've been doing it for 3 years so we aren't neophytes at it.

Bottom line for me: it is a good way to introduce CAP members to a different method of launch, and it adds a lot of flights to the glider (CAP wants us to get 200 flights a year in order to keep the glider), but it has its own limitations and is not quite as easy as it might sound.

Fred

[WB]

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.

Auto launching can be an economical, if laborious, way to get gliders in the air. My club used to do a lot of auto and winch launching. We did hundreds of auto launches and thousands of winch launches. For auto launch, we used the "pulley in the middle" system with the pulley on the to car, pulling from the middle of the rope. We used about 4000 feet of dacron line. 2:1 mechanical advantage of this system meant that the tow car never had to exceed 28 mph. With 10 mph headwind, our Ka-8 sometimes achieved launches of 2000' agl. We usually got 1400-1600' with the Ka-7 and ASK-21. The tow car was an old Ford Crown Vic that came from a junk yard. We had around 300-400 lbs of bricks in the trunk to keep the wheels from spinning in the later stages of a launch. I think it only ran on 5 cylinders, but it produced about the perfect amount of power for launching the 2 seaters. Put it in low gear and just push the accelerator smoothly to the floor. The glider would be airborne in about the same distance as a winch launch. The car would get to about 28 mph and by then the glider was beginning to pitch up. With the pedal all the way to the floor, a 2-seater glider in a steep climb would begin to slowly decelerate the car. This resulted in launches with very close to the perfect speed in the climb. We would be down below 25 mph with the glider at the top of the launch. Letting off the gas made for a very short stop. The rope usually back released at that point. Made it easy peasy to launch two seaters. With the single place birds, we'd have to go a little easier on the throttle to keep speed below 30 at the car. Still, it was very easy to drive the launch as long as the pilot pitched up correctly.

Recovery of the rope was a bit fiddly and was the time consuming part of it all. We were at the end of the runway at the end of the launch, so we could not continue on to pull the rope down to the car. The rope just fell wherever. We had no chute on it anyway. We'd recover and straighten the line by putting it back on the pulley then having the anchor vehicle tow the other end of the rope to the launch point. We could do a launch every 10 minutes if we hustled. Usually it was more like 15 minutes per launch.

We always had two people in the car. A driver and an observer. The observers job was to keep an eye on the glider and relay info to the driver. The observer also had a very sharp machete with which to cut the rope should the glider be unable to release.

Our pulley system was just a truck wheel mounted on a steel arm that fit into an hitch receiver.

[Ramy]

Post by WB

Post by Sean Fidler
I had an interesting conversation with a pal about auto-tow glider launching method recently. It seems academic really.

Auto launching can be an economical, if laborious, way to get gliders in the air. My club used to do a lot of auto and winch launching. We did hundreds of auto launches and thousands of winch launches. For auto launch, we used the "pulley in the middle" system with the pulley on the to car, pulling from the middle of the rope. We used about 4000 feet of dacron line. 2:1 mechanical advantage of this system meant that the tow car never had to exceed 28 mph. With 10 mph headwind, our Ka-8 sometimes achieved launches of 2000' agl. We usually got 1400-1600' with the Ka-7 and ASK-21. The tow car was an old Ford Crown Vic that came from a junk yard. We had around 300-400 lbs of bricks in the trunk to keep the wheels from spinning in the later stages of a launch. I think it only ran on 5 cylinders, but it produced about the perfect amount of power for launching the 2 seaters. Put it in low gear and just push the accelerator smoothly to the floor. The glider would be airborne in about the same distance as a winch launch. The car would get to about 28 mph and by then the glider was beginning to pitch up. With the pedal all the way to the floor, a 2-seater glider in a steep climb would begin to slowly decelerate the car. This resulted in launches with very close to the perfect speed in the climb. We would be down below 25 mph with the glider at the top of the launch. Letting off the gas made for a very short stop. The rope usually back released at that point. Made it easy peasy to launch two seaters. With the single place birds, we'd have to go a little easier on the throttle to keep speed below 30 at the car. Still, it was very easy to drive the launch as long as the pilot pitched up correctly.
Recovery of the rope was a bit fiddly and was the time consuming part of it all. We were at the end of the runway at the end of the launch, so we could not continue on to pull the rope down to the car. The rope just fell wherever. We had no chute on it anyway. We'd recover and straighten the line by putting it back on the pulley then having the anchor vehicle tow the other end of the rope to the launch point. We could do a launch every 10 minutes if we hustled. Usually it was more like 15 minutes per launch.
We always had two people in the car. A driver and an observer. The observers job was to keep an eye on the glider and relay info to the driver. The observer also had a very sharp machete with which to cut the rope should the glider be unable to release.
Our pulley system was just a truck wheel mounted on a steel arm that fit into an hitch receiver.

At least in most soaring sites in California, auto towing (as well as winch) will provide affordable sled rides at best. The lift is typically in the mountains 5-30 miles away. The only exceptions I can think of is Avenal and maybe Crazy Creek.

Ramy

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Ramy
At least in most soaring sites in California, auto towing (as well as winch) will provide affordable sled rides at best. The lift is typically in the mountains 5-30 miles away. The only exceptions I can think of is Avenal and maybe Crazy Creek.

Affordable sled rides make for affordable training. And, the whole reason we tried (and ultimately failed) to get a winch operating at Crazy Creek is that lift is easily accessible from 2000 feet above the field on nearly all soarable days.

[Tom (2N0)]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0kWK9b9sxAbMEN4WkVCb0l5N1E/view?usp=sharing

Car tow hitch with release

[f***@hersen.eu]

Aéroclub; Vol à Voile Montagne Noire
Airflield; LFMG


Loading Image...

[gb]

Wonder if they would be interested in upsizing to full on sailplane size?
http://cloudstreetwinch.com/

[Waveguru]

Pay out winch works great! Our airport manager here won't let me use it here tho...
Enjoy this video from our Alvord Desert Safari:

Boggs

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

Post by Waveguru
Pay out winch works great! Our airport manager here won't let me use it here tho...
http://youtu.be/oP8bVgG8xJc
Boggs

A payout winch can be forced to work with a low speed glider like a 2-33 but don't try to launch a heavy composite that way. If you do the math you'll see that the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.

When one looks at all the alternatives, it's clear that the cheapest, quickest, simplest way to ground launch a glider is with a winch. Auto tow in all its variations just can't compete.

[Waveguru]

the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.
I guess you didn't bother to watch the videos, eh Bill? We launched many glass ships to thousands of feet.

Boggs

[Craig Funston]

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.
I guess you didn't bother to watch the videos, eh Bill? We launched many glass ships to thousands of feet.
Boggs

Gary, what were your typical truck speeds?

Thanks,
Craig

[B***@coloradosoaring.org]

Post by B***@coloradosoaring.org
the tow car will have to hit nearly 100mph.
I guess you didn't bother to watch the videos, eh Bill? We launched many glass ships to thousands of feet.
Boggs

Yeah, I watched your video.

[George Haeh]

Out in the prairies, trees and power lines
are less prevalent than center pivot
irrigators and barbed wire fences. The
neighboring farmers might let us put in
gates to run the winch line another 3000'
+, but I'm wondering if we could mount
high pulleys at the fence lines to avoid
rubbing against fence posts etc.

If we could get a drone with PowerFLARM
to pull the line back, life would be really
good except for the pipeline patrol guy.

[Waveguru]

We figured the truck speed as stall speed plus 10 or 15 minus the wind speed. At the Alvord we had to add five or 10 for density altitude. I don't think we ever went more than 75mph, usually 60-65 We never launched any ships with water. The slower you can go and still get the job done the better. It's really important for there to be good three way communication between pilot, driver, and winch operator. Having the cable pressure set so that in lift the glider just climbs faster and in sink it doesn't pay out at all takes out the wild fluctuations in airspeed we used to get with the solid wire auto tow. It's much safer and the cable rarely breaks. Only when you get a nick in it some how.

Boggs

[Frank Whiteley]

Post by George Haeh
Out in the prairies, trees and power lines
are less prevalent than center pivot
irrigators and barbed wire fences. The
neighboring farmers might let us put in
gates to run the winch line another 3000'
+, but I'm wondering if we could mount
high pulleys at the fence lines to avoid
rubbing against fence posts etc.
If we could get a drone with PowerFLARM
to pull the line back, life would be really
good except for the pipeline patrol guy.

Would take a bit more time to retrieve the rope, but an wheel rim on a shaft on top of a fence topping frame would probably work if done properly, though a gate would be better and much more desireable. Retrieve drivers would have to be able to drive in a straight line. Not too hard on a flat surface.

There was a club that reportedly used a wheel rim of some sort on a post to guide the rope around a runway dogleg during the start of the launch. It may have been in the UK.

Frank Whiteley

[Sean Fidler]

Bill....at best, not accurate.

[Waveguru]

Here's another pay out winch video from the other end:

Boggs

[Waveguru]

And another next to the tow:

Here one that's a little long, 13 minutes, but gives you the view from the glider. The tow starts at about 3 minutes. We get more height when the truck gets up to speed before setting the brake:

Boggs

[danlj]

From 1995 - 2000 we had a little club that operated mostly with autotow. The biggest expense was, eventually, overhauling the CV joints of the Dodge Ram, eaten by the owner.
I wrote a little instruction manual one weekend in 2000. Behind every recommendation in this is an un-told story.
http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/GroundLaunch/index.html

[Nick Kennedy]

http://www.ssa.org/Archive/ViewIssue.aspx?year=1998&month=10&page=1

This is a article in soaring by Tom Hardy. it describes his experience gathering a group of students and doing low level auto tows runs up and down the runway at a low flight level. I remember reading this when it first came out and was impressed at how much fun it seemed and and quick way to get alot of budding pilots stick time. I met and flew with Mr Hardy in Marfa back in the late 90's. He was quite elderly at the time yet drove there alone, rigged and flew, I was impressed.
T

[son_of_flubber]

Start your training in winch land and you get hundreds of low altitude releases. You get quite good at climbing out and recognizing the need to give up and enter the pattern. Even better, do winch training when you're a kid and your brain is a sponge.

Train with aerotow, and you take a relatively small number of 3000 foot tows and just enough pattern tows to achieve PTS landing standards. Climb outs from pattern tows are rare. If you have a CFI-G on board, and you might climb out if the lift is solid and easy when you release.

Move on to XC, fly less frequently, land once a day, and see a regression in landing proficiency. Make an effort to maintain landing proficiency.

Having trained with aerotow exclusively, I'll release at 1300 in reliable lift, but if I don't immediately climb, I head for the pattern. I've never practiced the more subtle decision making that one needs for relatively safe 'low saves'. I avoid struggling for lift below 1300.

If I changed my home airport to a place with a nice winch, a big flat field, and smooth low altitude lift (and not much sink, gusts and wind shear), I'd roll back my training, take a few hundred winch tows over a summer, and fill the low altitude flying gaps in my training. Maybe some place in Germany... The only thing that I've ever practiced below 1300 is circling in smooth easy lift and landing.

I'm an adequate and well-trained pilot for how I fly. If I were a 'natural pilot', I might feel differently. Going to a one-off, auto/winch towing camp would be a good experience, but I'd not have too much confidence in my fresh ground launch endorsement until I did a few hundred launches. People who did their initial training with ground launch have deeply rooted skills that I don't have. I could probably get a ground launch endorsement with a brief effort, but my skills would be thin.

[Dan Marotta]

I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the pattern".
What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower the gear, turn
base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at least) when flying that
low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on airport or off, and work the
lift until you feel that your touchdown spot will soon become out of
reach. Maybe you'll drift to a location where there's another safe
landing spot, maybe not. The comfort comes from developing that feeling
for the glider and its response to your input.

Post by son_of_flubber
Start your training in winch land and you get hundreds of low altitude releases. You get quite good at climbing out and recognizing the need to give up and enter the pattern. Even better, do winch training when you're a kid and your brain is a sponge.
Train with aerotow, and you take a relatively small number of 3000 foot tows and just enough pattern tows to achieve PTS landing standards. Climb outs from pattern tows are rare. If you have a CFI-G on board, and you might climb out if the lift is solid and easy when you release.
Move on to XC, fly less frequently, land once a day, and see a regression in landing proficiency. Make an effort to maintain landing proficiency.
Having trained with aerotow exclusively, I'll release at 1300 in reliable lift, but if I don't immediately climb, I head for the pattern. I've never practiced the more subtle decision making that one needs for relatively safe 'low saves'. I avoid struggling for lift below 1300.
If I changed my home airport to a place with a nice winch, a big flat field, and smooth low altitude lift (and not much sink, gusts and wind shear), I'd roll back my training, take a few hundred winch tows over a summer, and fill the low altitude flying gaps in my training. Maybe some place in Germany... The only thing that I've ever practiced below 1300 is circling in smooth easy lift and landing.
I'm an adequate and well-trained pilot for how I fly. If I were a 'natural pilot', I might feel differently. Going to a one-off, auto/winch towing camp would be a good experience, but I'd not have too much confidence in my fresh ground launch endorsement until I did a few hundred launches. People who did their initial training with ground launch have deeply rooted skills that I don't have. I could probably get a ground launch endorsement with a brief effort, but my skills would be thin.

[BobW]

Post by Dan Marotta
I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the pattern".
What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower the gear, turn base,
and land. There's no pattern (for me, at least) when flying that low.
Pick a a touchdown spot early, on airport or off, and work the lift until
you feel that your touchdown spot will soon become out of reach. Maybe
you'll drift to a location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe
not. The comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
response to your input.

Pretty much, "What Dan said." Where-n-when I obtained my license was a shared
field (Cumberland, MD) and I had it beat into my skull to "NEVER be trying to
soar below pattern altitude (or you'll screw it up for gliding here, and quite
possibly also do somethings else stupid)!!!" So the first question the Chief
Instructor (not mine, but one from whom I'd heard the above message) asked me
after I'd abandoned a 5-hour attempt after approximately 4 hours and 55
minutes late on an overcast afternoon during which there'd been essentially
zero other traffic of any kind was, "What'd you quit circling for? There was
nobody around!" I'd known that, but...and the question didn't diminish the
bloom on my rose one iota.

Fast forward a few years and maybe a couple hundred total soaring hours to
Boulder, CO, another (almost guaranteed-to-be-busy) shared airport. There,
simple self-preservation is usually sufficient for Joe Average Glider Pilot to
realize on his own that circling down/below pattern altitude as if the sky
isn't a shared resource, is dangerously foolish, with or without instructor or
peer input. That said, the relatively busy pattern entry sky is simultaneously
a superb training location for improving one's situational awareness when
simultaneously trying to avoid having to land. Over the years there've been
times I pulled the plug as high as (say) 1300' agl, and other times I've hung
on to below 1000' agl delaying my pattern waiting for less congested
pattern-or-field conditions, and (rarely) some times landing farther down the
field was the safest and sanest choice, ground-convenience be damned. I can
recall only twice when my "Shoot - landing required!" planning didn't result
in my desired outcome, once due to a grossly situationally-unaware, visiting,
bozo glider pilot who barged into the pattern from an unapproved/"wind-wrong"
direction at about 500' agl, and once from a local pilot burning off several
thousand feet of altitude in an almighty rush to get on the ground "just
because." In both cases, I simply landed well down the runway to avoid 'em.
Point being, there's "no guaranteed magic" about a height-agl number when it
comes to pattern planning, and if Joe Pilot insists on thinking there is, he's
setting himself up for (at the very least) some future disappointments.

That was all in my mid-twenties, ~40 years ago.

Bob - head on a swivel is good! - W.

[Martin Gregorie]

Post by Dan Marotta
I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the pattern".
What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower the gear, turn
base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at least) when flying that
low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on airport or off, and work the
lift until you feel that your touchdown spot will soon become out of
reach. Maybe you'll drift to a location where there's another safe
landing spot, maybe not. The comfort comes from developing that feeling
for the glider and its response to your input.

Well said.

In addition, the 'several hundred' winch launches shouldn't be needed: a
good summer's local soaring should do the job for a signed-off solo
pilot. Realistically thats no more than 100 launches at the outside.

Don't forget that all the critical stuff, such as being able to fly
approaches from any point round the field onto any sensible run on the
field and getting rid of any fixation on using local landmarks when
judging circuits and landings, should have been covered pre-solo.
Similarly, dealing with cable breaks and winch failures at various
heights and stages in the launch should have been adequately covered
before getting the winch sign-off.

I did essentially all my training on the winch, soloing on my 80th flight
and being sent off in a Junior to complete Silver C with the distance
flight (off the winch) as my 207th launch as soon as I've been signed off
for the Bronze XC endorsement. A quick logbook scan says that, of those
207 flights, 11 were aero tows [1] and 4 were in an SF-25 TMG[2].

[1] That was for a spin demo in our Puchacz. Our summer instructor that
year knew how to spin an ASK-21 without any tail weights, etc. and so I
got my spin sign-offs in the ASK-21 with him off winch launches on good,
thermally days

[2] three of these SF-25 flights were normal take-offs. The remaining one
was a winch launch - I was visiting Nympsfield and got offered a ride
over to Aston Down (my first on type) in an SF-25, which was fitted with
a winch hook on its u/c strut. Its owner had it winched for the return
flight to show me what it could do. It felt very odd to be going up the
wire with the prop brake set to keep the prop clear of the cable and one
blade stationary in front of us (a 3-blader before you ask). Once
released at 1300, we glided around a bit before making an air start at
900 ft and flying back to NYM to soar the ridge a bit before landing.

[u***@ix.netcom.com]

Post by Dan Marotta
I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the
pattern".  What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower
the gear, turn base, and land.  There's no pattern (for me, at
least) when flying that low.  Pick a a touchdown spot early, on
airport or off, and work the lift until you feel that your touchdown
spot will soon become out of reach.  Maybe you'll drift to a
location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe not.  The
comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
response to your input.
This is a practice that may work for you, but is anywhere from a little unsafe to really dangerous for others.

How does the guy flying a regular pattern deal with these antics?
There are many good reasons to know when to stop soaring and start landing, the top of the list being you are much less likely to crash.
Dan may make it work for him but I'm on record as saying it is bad practice and sets a terrible example.
UH

[Dan Marotta]

Not everything can be said in a simple paragraph; there are nuances,
pop-ups, what-ifs, etc., and there's not enough time to mention all of
them here. What I'm talking about is skill, practice, observation,
planning, and, most of all, judgement, and apparently from some of the
attitudes I read here, there's not enough of the latter.

Making a low save away from the airport, there are not the pattern
issues mentioned. This is my field and I'll do what I want. ...Unless
there's another glider also needing to land. Most often if that's the
case, the other pilot also has some of what it takes to be a safe glider
pilot or he wouldn't be in the same situation (stretching his wings) so
I trust him and assume he trusts me not to put each other into danger.

If low at the airport and trying to make a save, I'll consider pattern
issues. Is it a small strip? A single runway? Other traffic in the
pattern or in the area? Am I positioned for opposite traffic? Do the
winds permit a safe landing from that position? Will there be room? I
could go on with what-ifs for quite some time, but I hope you get the
idea. Where I fly there are two wide runways, each approximately 7,000'
long and very little traffic. Takeoff staging is about 1,700' from the
threshold of the runway and landings routinely exit on the exceptionally
wide (500' at the narrowest) staging area behind the launch. There are
also two parallel taxiways to land on, if necessary.

So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice? It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual situations
rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every situation. I'll
go on record stating that exercising flexibility and judgement is safer
than fixed protocol every time.

Post by u***@ix.netcom.com

Post by Dan Marotta
I get stuck on the attitude of "giving up and heading for the
pattern". What works for me is to keep trying until I must lower
the gear, turn base, and land. There's no pattern (for me, at
least) when flying that low. Pick a a touchdown spot early, on
airport or off, and work the lift until you feel that your touchdown
spot will soon become out of reach. Maybe you'll drift to a
location where there's another safe landing spot, maybe not. The
comfort comes from developing that feeling for the glider and its
response to your input.
This is a practice that may work for you, but is anywhere from a little unsafe to really dangerous for others.

How does the guy flying a regular pattern deal with these antics?
There are many good reasons to know when to stop soaring and start landing, the top of the list being you are much less likely to crash.
Dan may make it work for him but I'm on record as saying it is bad practice and sets a terrible example.
UH

[son_of_flubber]

Post by Dan Marotta
So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice?  It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual
situations rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every
situation. 

The point that I was trying to make in my original post is that pilots who make their first 100 or so launches with a winch, gain experience with low level flying and develop instincts to do it relatively safely (the record suggests). People like me who trained with 3000 foot tows and 'pattern tows' do not get low level 'climb out' experience and our instincts for low level flying are rather underdeveloped. There not much deliberation and weighing of options when releasing off a 'pattern tow' at the 'Initial Point'.

The fact that you feel so comfortable at low altitude suggests that you picked up the skills to do it at some point in your extensive flying career.

My SOP of committing to landing at 1000-1300 AGL means that I don't have to rely on instincts that I don't have. Sure it would be better if I was more comfortable with doing lower 'saves'. Maybe that will come in time. I get a fair bit of practice scraping for lift at fairly low AGL over local ridges, but I have the option of skipping out over the valley and entering the pattern at 1000 AGL. It's all relative. I've seen one of the local old timers, circling extremely low above the saddle on the ridge... but he is like 85... and he has a wife on standby for his notoriously frequent retrieves.

[Dan Marotta]

My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that implied
that my method/comfort level is "dangerous". Looking at Sugarbush on
google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see some decent looking
agricultural fields as fall backs if you get low. I also see not too
many options if the pattern gets crowded and, at your location, I'd be
much more inclined to land if I got down to my comfort level than to try
a low save. Regarding the old guy hanging out on the ridge, local
knowledge and experience plays an important role in low flying.

Take a look at Moriarty, NM
<https://www.google.com/maps/place/Moriarty+Municipal+Airport/@34.9753831,-106.0069118,2799m/data=%213m1%211e3%214m2%213m1%211s0x8718cfb021a7a53d:0xa23675822a0f93a3>
and you'll get an idea of why I'm comfortable with a low save here.
Look at all the landing options.

Dan

Post by son_of_flubber

Post by Dan Marotta
So, do you call all of this thought and planning and situational
awareness bad practice? It seems to me that less experienced pilots
would be better served by seeing what is possible in unusual
situations rather than being hobbled by one simple rule for every
situation.

The point that I was trying to make in my original post is that pilots who make their first 100 or so launches with a winch, gain experience with low level flying and develop instincts to do it relatively safely (the record suggests). People like me who trained with 3000 foot tows and 'pattern tows' do not get low level 'climb out' experience and our instincts for low level flying are rather underdeveloped. There not much deliberation and weighing of options when releasing off a 'pattern tow' at the 'Initial Point'.
The fact that you feel so comfortable at low altitude suggests that you picked up the skills to do it at some point in your extensive flying career.
My SOP of committing to landing at 1000-1300 AGL means that I don't have to rely on instincts that I don't have. Sure it would be better if I was more comfortable with doing lower 'saves'. Maybe that will come in time. I get a fair bit of practice scraping for lift at fairly low AGL over local ridges, but I have the option of skipping out over the valley and entering the pattern at 1000 AGL. It's all relative. I've seen one of the local old timers, circling extremely low above the saddle on the ridge... but he is like 85... and he has a wife on standby for his notoriously frequent retrieves.

[u***@ix.netcom.com]

Post by Dan Marotta
My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that
implied that my method/comfort level is "dangerous".  Looking at
Sugarbush on google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see
some decent looking agricultural fields as fall backs if you get
low.  I also see not too many options if the pattern gets crowded
and, at your location, I'd be much more inclined to land if I got
down to my comfort level than to try a low save.  Regarding the old
guy hanging out on the ridge, local knowledge and experience plays
an important role in low flying.
Take
a look at Moriarty, NM and you'll get an idea of why I'm
comfortable with a low save here.  Look at all the landing options.
Dan
Your comment was in response to my comment that your practice is one, that while it may work for you, is generally unsafe and not one that others who are much less experienced than you should imitate.

Getting comfortable with being low commonly leads to pilots on cross countries quitting way to late to plan a good landing and execute in properly.
This is a major contributor to our accident record.
People reading this should understand that while it works for Dan, it is likely not a practice they should adopt.
UH

[joesimmers]

Well said Hank.

[Dan Marotta]

Agreed, and not trying to get into a pissing contest. My main thrust is
the general lack of judgement that I see daily. I attribute that to a
cook book approach to instruction with only one method being taught. As
I tow pilot I see the same pattern tow instructed every time: 1,300'
AGL at the entry point and on a down wind heading. The student is
taught to make a right 360 degree turn to arrive over the entry point at
the same altitude and heading every time. This is great if you want to
open the dive brakes if you arrive a bit high or sweat bullets if you're
a bit low, but it does nothing for getting more out of your equipment
and yourself.

Please understand that I don't push low thermalling in the pattern as a
rule, only as another option, under certain circumstances, and with due
regard to what else is going on nearby. I'm all for flexibility and I
really wish instructors would at least teach or demonstrate just a few
different possibilities, like getting out of a 10:1 cone of the airport
or landing in the opposite direction of traffic or a right-hand
pattern. Students where I fly see these things only once - as
emergencies (which they may very well be) and during their final flights
before their private pilot check ride.

Now I must leave for the day to drop students off at 1,300' AGL at the
pattern entry point...

Post by u***@ix.netcom.com

Post by Dan Marotta
My reply wasn't directed at you, Flub, but at the response that
implied that my method/comfort level is "dangerous". Looking at
Sugarbush on google maps (that's where you fly, isn't it?), I see
some decent looking agricultural fields as fall backs if you get
low. I also see not too many options if the pattern gets crowded
and, at your location, I'd be much more inclined to land if I got
down to my comfort level than to try a low save. Regarding the old
guy hanging out on the ridge, local knowledge and experience plays
an important role in low flying.
Take
a look at Moriarty, NM and you'll get an idea of why I'm
comfortable with a low save here. Look at all the landing options.
Dan
Your comment was in response to my comment that your practice is one, that while it may work for you, is generally unsafe and not one that others who are much less experienced than you should imitate.

Getting comfortable with being low commonly leads to pilots on cross countries quitting way to late to plan a good landing and execute in properly.
This is a major contributor to our accident record.
People reading this should understand that while it works for Dan, it is likely not a practice they should adopt.
UH

[Werner Schmidt]

Post by Dan Marotta
Please understand that I don't push low thermalling in the pattern as a
rule, only as another option, under certain circumstances,

and it may be fun, like this:

<http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>

Sorry, download site in german, but it should work. Simple video, taken
by a teenager of our club during our summer camp 2013 at Möckmühl,
Germany. AVI-file of about 102 MB. Me in the K8, another pilot (from the
local club) in the LS4 circling around me. He had to give up - some 2
minutes before me :-)

regards
Werner

[son_of_flubber]

Post by Werner Schmidt
<http://filehorst.de/d/bputbHxH>

That is a risky click/link. Tried to install malware on my computer.

[Muttley]

Hi Sean another small video of a car Launch from this years Safari to the Kerry Beaches. Typical Irish Gliding weather - low cloudbase, weak ridge lift and rain, a lot worse than what you had in Chilhowee!

Regards
Bruno

[Sean Fidler]

Bruno. That is really cool!!!! Thx for sharing!

Sean
7T

[Muttley]

Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

[Sarah]

Post by Muttley
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?

Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Post by Sarah

Post by Muttley
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?
Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

Instead of bug wipers they need window wipers!

[Muttley]

Post by Sarah

Post by Muttley
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

Wonderful! Is this the beach at Inch?
Years and Years ago, when a mere student pilot on vacation, we stumbled on a similar operation there. Similar weather - the wind was really howling - similar K13 - but I just watched for a while.

Yes this Launch is from Inch Beach but I think in a KA8.

Bruno

[BobW]

Post by Muttley
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NnhoE7G68YM

So cool! Except for the water (on the ground, I mean, ha ha) that took me back
to my early training days in Cumberland, MD when - for lack of a better idea -
I'd go to the field on similar days, often there to find my instructor (who
lived 3 hours away), insisting I take a tow in similar low-cloudbase,
drizzling, superficially gloomy conditions. Many times we'd find
intermittently usable convective lift, and it wasn't long after I got my
license I figured out I'd been also learning a whole heckuva lot more about
the atmosphere and in-flight judgment, too. (Thanks, Tom!)

Man, it is FUN to soar on "unsoarable" days. It's even more fun to be having &
able to do so when XC!

Bob W.

[Waveguru]

IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs