Discussion:
OVMS day of birthday server
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Edgar Ulloa
2020-09-02 15:47:15 UTC
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Hello guys
How can you tell if an ovms installation was done from cd or was it via restore from a backup/image?

Do you know any command that shows the exact creation date of the server? maybe in license commands or in sda clue something like that?

regards
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
2020-09-02 16:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edgar Ulloa
How can you tell if an ovms installation was done from cd or was it
via restore from a backup/image?
Two different questions.
Post by Edgar Ulloa
Do you know any command that shows the exact creation date of the
server? maybe in license commands or in sda clue something like that?
What about

$ dir/dat [000000]000000

My guess is that with a CD installation it would show the timestamp of
that installation, but with after the restore of an image backup the
timestamp of the original installation, though other backup commands
could result in the timestamp of the restore.

Back up a bit (pun intended). What is your actual goal?
Edgar Ulloa
2020-09-02 16:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Post by Edgar Ulloa
How can you tell if an ovms installation was done from cd or was it
via restore from a backup/image?
Two different questions.
Post by Edgar Ulloa
Do you know any command that shows the exact creation date of the
server? maybe in license commands or in sda clue something like that?
What about
$ dir/dat [000000]000000
My guess is that with a CD installation it would show the timestamp of
that installation, but with after the restore of an image backup the
timestamp of the original installation, though other backup commands
could result in the timestamp of the restore.
Back up a bit (pun intended). What is your actual goal?
Hi Phillip
for example if server A already has some problems reported, example in the dcltables.exe ... a new installation does not bring that error, however your assistant tells you that I have already carried out an installation but you are not sure that it is from cd but a simple restor because the new server exhibits the same type of behavior as server A. the good server B was made with cd and does not exhibit that. (It is only an example of the dcltables, it is not that it is happening) but I am wondering if there is a way to know the creation date and maybe when doing restore brings the same date of the wrong server and know that an installation was not done from zero but a simple restore
Robert A. Brooks
2020-09-02 16:59:17 UTC
Permalink
On 9/2/2020 12:49 PM, Edgar Ulloa wrote:
Hi Phillip for example if server A already has some problems
Post by Edgar Ulloa
reported, example in the dcltables.exe ... a new installation does
not bring that error, however your assistant tells you that I have
already carried out an installation but you are not sure that it is
from cd but a simple restor because the new server exhibits the same
type of behavior as server A. the good server B was made with cd and
does not exhibit that. (It is only an example of the dcltables, it is
not that it is happening) but I am wondering if there is a way to
know the creation date and maybe when doing restore brings the same
date of the wrong server and know that an installation was not done
from zero but a simple restore
You look at the image identification to see if the specific image in question
has been replace or not.
--
-- Rob
Stephen Hoffman
2020-09-02 19:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert A. Brooks
...for example if server A already has some problems reported, example
in the dcltables.exe ... a new installation does not bring that error,
however your assistant tells you that I have already carried out an
installation but you are not sure that it is from cd but a simple
restor because the new server exhibits the same type of behavior as
server A. the good server B was made with cd and does not exhibit that.
(It is only an example of the dcltables, it is not that it is
happening) but I am wondering if there is a way to know the creation
date and maybe when doing restore brings the same date of the wrong
server and know that an installation was not done from zero but a
simple restore
You look at the image identification to see if the specific image in
question has been replace or not.
Oh my, is this situation ever familiar. More than a few OpenVMS systems
and deployments are managed similarly, too.

The OP has already gotten good information on the limits of the
existing tracking and tooling, and we've all had some experience in
under-automated server operations.

OpenVMS lacks any sort of telemetry and lacks any sort of change
tracking. This outside of what gets written to the audit and accounting
data, into OPCOM and the OPERATOR.LOG files, the PCSI database, the
VMSINSTAL.HISTORY file, into user- or app-specific logs, and which in
aggregate seems like a lot, but it's approximately impractical to
rummage and use that data.

There've been efforts toward this change tracking, DECinspect was one.
There's prolly been third-party tools here, too. (There were some hooks
put in place for change-tracking of OpenVMS itself some years ago too,
via VMSKITBLD.DAT, but that work was never been completed. And it's now
also outdated, given its intended use of MD5 for detecting changes.
This would now best be SHA-2 or newer, as malicious changes are likely
in scope.)

In place of the image headers (which don't always get updated), there's
the MD5 (insecure), SHA-1 (weak), or SHA-2 of the files, given various
places don't necessarily track and change image idents. See the DCL
command CHECKSUM for some assistance here. (The CHECKSUM command has
been around forever, and was updated and documented for V8.something or
other. None of the checksums are cryptographically secure against
malicious attackers, but they'll work fine for non-malicious cases.)

Given DCLTABLES doesn't have any ident or any sort of checksum-ability
that would be useful here, the ugly option is to extract the contents
and compare, using the VERB freeware utility that's been around for a
while, or some other similar means. Or re-load the changes.

The longer-term fix for various sites is to use PCSI or (maybe)
VMSINSTAL kits as manually-installed software is seemingly inevitably
going to have inconsistencies, and to update the local app-build
scripts to always update the image identification values and to use
those versions to re-generate the PCSI kits, and then to also implement
site-specific telemetry for the rest of what's locally required. This
at least gets the contents over into the PCSI database, which can be
quickly reviewed. And most app update installations go a whole lot
faster than the manual-per-file install approach, too. To make even the
local apps into layered products. Which makes all of the software
installations far more reproducible. And if you're doing something
PCSI balks at, maybe try a different approach?




ps: This mess all also ties back into my previous comments around (the
lack of) telemetry and lack of change-tracking, the lack of
profiles-like mechanisms for tailoring an app installation, the various
limitations within PCSI itself, and for better and more isolated app
installation tools, obviously. The difficulties around pushing out
updates, and around re-installing and migrating existing OpenVMS and
layered products and apps without having to go through the whole
manual-install process, too. The auto-answer mechanisms in the
installer tools only get you so far.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Simon Clubley
2020-09-02 17:02:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edgar Ulloa
Hi Phillip
for example if server A already has some problems reported, example in the dcltables.exe ... a new installation does not bring that error, however your assistant tells you that I have already carried out an installation but you are not sure that it is from cd but a simple restor because the new server exhibits the same type of behavior as server A. the good server B was made with cd and does not exhibit that. (It is only an example of the dcltables, it is not that it is happening) but I am wondering if there is a way to know the creation date and maybe when doing restore brings the same date of the wrong server and know that an installation was not done from zero but a simple restore
Look at both the PCSI and VMSINSTAL history.

That will tell you when various things were originally installed.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
geze...@rlgsc.com
2020-09-02 18:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by Edgar Ulloa
Hi Phillip
for example if server A already has some problems reported, example in the dcltables.exe ... a new installation does not bring that error, however your assistant tells you that I have already carried out an installation but you are not sure that it is from cd but a simple restor because the new server exhibits the same type of behavior as server A. the good server B was made with cd and does not exhibit that. (It is only an example of the dcltables, it is not that it is happening) but I am wondering if there is a way to know the creation date and maybe when doing restore brings the same date of the wrong server and know that an installation was not done from zero but a simple restore
Look at both the PCSI and VMSINSTAL history.
That will tell you when various things were originally installed.
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
All,
Genealogy of a system disk is an interesting question. The history can be complicated.

The date on device:[000000]000000.DIR;1 is the initialization date of the disk file structure. It may not be the date that the system was installed. It can be earlier, contemporaneous, or later, depending on how the system was installed and the volume history.

The various histories may be useful, but may be inaccurate if the system disk image was cloned at one or more points.

Checking the ident of individual images is probably the most useful element. (Note to VSI: A contents list of the distribution including idents would be a good addition to the distribution. Preferably one with the appropriate checksums and and overall file checksum).

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
Bob Wilson
2020-09-02 20:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@rlgsc.com
Checking the ident of individual images is probably the most useful element. (Note to VSI: A contents list of the distribution including idents would be a good addition to the distribution. Preferably one with the appropriate checksums and and overall file checksum).
There are no idents or checksums, but there's:

$ HELP SYS_FILES

bw
Stephen Hoffman
2020-09-02 20:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Wilson
Post by ***@rlgsc.com
Checking the ident of individual images is probably the most useful
element. (Note to VSI: A contents list of the distribution including
idents would be a good addition to the distribution. Preferably one
with the appropriate checksums and and overall file checksum).
$ HELP SYS_FILES
Easier to parse and to automate the comparison, starting from
VMSKITBLD.DAT and (probably better here) VMSKITBLD.XML.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Bob Wilson
2020-09-03 00:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Bob Wilson
Post by ***@rlgsc.com
Checking the ident of individual images is probably the most useful
element. (Note to VSI: A contents list of the distribution including
idents would be a good addition to the distribution. Preferably one
with the appropriate checksums and and overall file checksum).
$ HELP SYS_FILES
Easier to parse and to automate the comparison, starting from
VMSKITBLD.DAT and (probably better here) VMSKITBLD.XML.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
The process by which the help is created is based on the contents VMSKITBLD.DAT
Stephen Hoffman
2020-09-03 03:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Wilson
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Bob Wilson
$ HELP SYS_FILES
Easier to parse and to automate the comparison, starting from
VMSKITBLD.DAT and (probably better here) VMSKITBLD.XML.
The process by which the help is created is based on the contents VMSKITBLD.DAT
The VMSKITBLD.XML drives a far amount of the kit-related processing
around here, and—for the purposes here—the XML is easier to process
than the DAT.
IIRC, the XML generates the DAT file and the rest of the derived data,
and not the other way 'round.
To extend the contents of the XML file, see the XSD file. Or import the
XML file into any of various XML-related tools.
There are some build-related qualifiers buried within the DCL command
CREATE, too.
But I may be mis-remembering all of this.
But even if I'm mis-remembering this and the VMSKITBLD.DAT generates
the XML file, it's still easier to start the effort here with the
already-parsed XML data than the DAT file.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Bob Wilson
2020-09-04 04:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Bob Wilson
Post by Stephen Hoffman
Post by Bob Wilson
$ HELP SYS_FILES
Easier to parse and to automate the comparison, starting from
VMSKITBLD.DAT and (probably better here) VMSKITBLD.XML.
The process by which the help is created is based on the contents VMSKITBLD.DAT
The VMSKITBLD.XML drives a far amount of the kit-related processing
around here, and—for the purposes here—the XML is easier to process
than the DAT.
IIRC, the XML generates the DAT file and the rest of the derived data,
and not the other way 'round.
To extend the contents of the XML file, see the XSD file. Or import the
XML file into any of various XML-related tools.
There are some build-related qualifiers buried within the DCL command
CREATE, too.
But I may be mis-remembering all of this.
But even if I'm mis-remembering this and the VMSKITBLD.DAT generates
the XML file, it's still easier to start the effort here with the
already-parsed XML data than the DAT file.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
The genesis of all kitting is VMSKITBLD.DAT...has been since VAX (and still is today)

My earlier post was to address the "Note to VSI: A contents list of the distribution...".

The HELP SYS_FILES stuff has been around since VMS V7.3 (VAX and Alpha)...there are no checksums, but...

bw

Simon Clubley
2020-09-03 12:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@rlgsc.com
All,
Genealogy of a system disk is an interesting question. The history can be complicated.
The date on device:[000000]000000.DIR;1 is the initialization date of the disk file structure. It may not be the date that the system was installed. It can be earlier, contemporaneous, or later, depending on how the system was installed and the volume history.
The various histories may be useful, but may be inaccurate if the system disk image was cloned at one or more points.
It looks like the OP is trying to find out if a server was rebuilt from
the ground up or if it was restored from a backup.

In that case, the histories give the OP the information they require as
the OP presumably knows when the server was supposed to have been rebuilt.

If the installation dates are around that date, then the system was rebuilt
from the ground up. If they are not, then the server was restored from some
backup image.

Simon.
--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Edgar Ulloa
2020-09-03 14:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
Post by ***@rlgsc.com
All,
Genealogy of a system disk is an interesting question. The history can be complicated.
The date on device:[000000]000000.DIR;1 is the initialization date of the disk file structure. It may not be the date that the system was installed. It can be earlier, contemporaneous, or later, depending on how the system was installed and the volume history.
The various histories may be useful, but may be inaccurate if the system disk image was cloned at one or more points.
It looks like the OP is trying to find out if a server was rebuilt from
the ground up or if it was restored from a backup.
In that case, the histories give the OP the information they require as
the OP presumably knows when the server was supposed to have been rebuilt.
If the installation dates are around that date, then the system was rebuilt
from the ground up. If they are not, then the server was restored from some
backup image.
Simon.
--
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.
Hello guys
I found a clue, as it was indeed a backup / image, the info is in the decnet configuration .. same name as the other node, the same circuits and lines.

small detail that was forgotten at the end of the restore

Thank you all for your comments
Stephen Hoffman
2020-09-03 15:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Clubley
If the installation dates are around that date, then the system was
rebuilt from the ground up. If they are not, then the server was
restored from some backup image.
Ayup.

Similarly, if all ~thirty places OpenVMS stores the host name match,
it's a fresh, recent install. If some of the ~thirty do not match,
it's a restored host and/or a renamed host.

I used to think restoring a backup was a wonderful capability, and
that's still useful, yes. But for some purposes not the least of which
are system disks, it can be a bad approach. Corruptions and errors
latent in the restoration get restored, too.

What's good about the restore is also what's bad about the restore.

The ability to easily migrate user files and settings and related
content to a new operating system installation (potentially with a new
host name, if needed) is really handy.

But then this gets back to resolving the non-designed and design
accretions, the lack of profiles and bundles and suchlike, and that'll
all be somewhere between difficult and impossible to resolve while
maintaining app compatibility.

And of the (in)ability to verify consistency, and to identify
modifications and divergences, too.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
Dave Froble
2020-09-02 20:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edgar Ulloa
Hello guys
How can you tell if an ovms installation was done from cd or was it via restore from a backup/image?
Do you know any command that shows the exact creation date of the server? maybe in license commands or in sda clue something like that?
regards
What platform?

For Alpha and newer there is product show hist *

But a BACKUP restore would keep the same data.

If you were told of an installation on a specific date, then the history
could tell you if it was then, or earlier.

For VAX, I'm not sure this data is available.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Andrew Commons
2020-09-03 06:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edgar Ulloa
Hello guys
How can you tell if an ovms installation was done from cd or was it via restore from a backup/image?
Do you know any command that shows the exact creation date of the server? maybe in license commands or in sda clue something like that?
regards
From memory, a very old memory, some VMS files like the accounting file and the audit file have back/forward links in then so you can verify that you have a complete set. Files created on a new system would not have backlinks whereas files from an existing system would/might have backlinks and contain historical data. Sysgen related files would also probably be good for timestamps related to a full install.

If you think your problem is just dcltables you could copy the good version to the bad system, point a user at the good version using /CLITABLES and see if the problems go away.
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