Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

[Kirk Wolf]

I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real" Unix
shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an ISPF
dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this bother anyone
else or am I missing an obvious work-around?

I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF dialog,
but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...

What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS) ISPF
application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the other
updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives. I
could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
"half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-thread
problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
"full-duplex" 3270 conversations.

Comments appreciated,

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies LLC

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[Stephen Y Odo]

Kirk Wolf wrote:
> I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real" Unix
> shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
> OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an ISPF
> dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this bother anyone
> else or am I missing an obvious work-around?
That bothers me too ... but I found a workaround ... I split the screen
in ISPF and then in the new screen do the TSO OMVS. When I want to swap
back to another ISPF screen, I just start OBROWSE or OEDIT and then the
swap works ... kinda goofy, but ...

--Stephen

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[Steve Comstock]

Kirk Wolf wrote:
> I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real" Unix
> shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
> OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an ISPF
> dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this bother anyone
> else or am I missing an obvious work-around?

I find it frustrating also.

What I do is usually work under omvs then get into
oedit of some file; from there I can split the screen
and do other ISPF work while holding my place in the
omvs screen (one nice side effect: you don't time
out if you have one screen running omvs).

But there are drawbacks to this approach, too. You
can't have two non-oedit omvs sessions and swap
between them - unless you started omvs with multiple
sessions; but then, the swap command works only for
the omvs sessions, not any other ISPF screens you
have going.

>
> I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF dialog,
> but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
>
> What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS) ISPF
> application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the other
> updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives. I
> could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
> "half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-thread
> problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
> "full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
>
> Comments appreciated,

I would be happy with a swap command to swap among omvs
sessions and a different swap command to swap from an
omvs screen to the ISPF split screen sessions.


Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
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[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf
<***@DOVETAIL.COM> wrote:

>...
>I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF
dialog,
>but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
>
>What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS)
ISPF
>application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the
other
>updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives. I
>could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
>"half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-
thread
>problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
>"full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
>...

I rarely do much Unixy stuff so what is comfortable for me is
probably far from what you want, but it sounds like ISHELL
addresses some of what you are asking for. It certainly doesn't
address the half-duplex nature of 3270 datastreams. (3270
datastreams ARE half-duplex.) But ISHELL gives you a full ISPF
screen manipulation, scrollable output (but only after the command
has completed), etc.

It doesn't give you Unix; it gives you ISPF access to Unix commands.
For some of us that's enough.

Pat O'Keefe

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[Kirk Wolf]

I'm aware of ISHELL; its good for most things...common things like "tail -f"
don't work so well :-)
(gripe: the way that the current directory is managed (not) for sh and
ex commands is goofy )

Back to ISPF processing... of course 3270 is half-duplex, but many
applications can alternate between updating output fields and accepting
input without requiring that the user press the Enter key (eg: the MVS
console). It has been *many* years since I wrote any ISPF dialogs, but it
seems to still be limited in this respect. Perhaps this is the reason why
"OMVS" does its own 3270 datastreams rather than run as an ISPF dialog?

Kirk

On Nov 28, 2007 5:42 PM, Patrick O'Keefe <***@wamu.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf
> <***@DOVETAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >...
> >I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF
> dialog,
> >but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
> >
> >What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS)
> ISPF
> >application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the
> other
> >updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives. I
> >could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
> >"half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-
> thread
> >problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
> >"full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
> >...
>
> I rarely do much Unixy stuff so what is comfortable for me is
> probably far from what you want, but it sounds like ISHELL
> addresses some of what you are asking for. It certainly doesn't
> address the half-duplex nature of 3270 datastreams. (3270
> datastreams ARE half-duplex.) But ISHELL gives you a full ISPF
> screen manipulation, scrollable output (but only after the command
> has completed), etc.
>
> It doesn't give you Unix; it gives you ISPF access to Unix commands.
> For some of us that's enough.
>
> Pat O'Keefe
>
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[Roger Lowe]

>On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf
><***@DOVETAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>>...
>>I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF
>dialog,
>>but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
>>
>>What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS)
>ISPF
>>application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the
>other
>>updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives. I
>>could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
>>"half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-
>thread
>>problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
>>"full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
>>...
I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up yet
to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !

Roger

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[R.S.]

Roger Lowe wrote:
[...]
> I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
> Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up yet
> to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !

AFAIK it is available for some time, maybe in 1.9 it is enhanced somehow

Regarding to Kirk's question: I miss it (the functionality) too. I don't
know any reasonable workaround, sometimes I simply use two sessions: two
3270 emulator windows, two userids... better than nothing...

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego,
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 0000025237
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Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone.

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[Chicklon, Tom]

Just started testing with my 1.9 system, and yes, there is more
integration in ISPF to access zFS and HFS files.

For example, from ISPF Opt 2, you can now enter a UNIX file name:

ISPF Library:

Project . . . TE23

Group . . . . TEST . . . . . . . . .

Type . . . . JCL

Member . . . (Blank or pattern for member selection
list)


Other Partitioned, Sequential or VSAM Data Set, or z/OS UNIX file:

Name . . . . . /u/TE23/Test
+
Volume Serial (If not cataloged)


Tom Chicklon

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Roger Lowe
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:22 PM
To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

>On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf
><***@DOVETAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>>...
>>I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF
>dialog,
>>but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
>>
>>What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS)
>ISPF
>>application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the
>other
>>updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives.
I
>>could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
>>"half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-
>thread
>>problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
>>"full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
>>...
I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up
yet
to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !

Roger

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[Steve Comstock]

Chicklon, Tom wrote:
> Just started testing with my 1.9 system, and yes, there is more
> integration in ISPF to access zFS and HFS files.
>
> For example, from ISPF Opt 2, you can now enter a UNIX file name:
>
> ISPF Library:
>
> Project . . . TE23
>
> Group . . . . TEST . . . . . . . . .
>
> Type . . . . JCL
>
> Member . . . (Blank or pattern for member selection
> list)
>
>
> Other Partitioned, Sequential or VSAM Data Set, or z/OS UNIX file:
>
> Name . . . . . /u/TE23/Test
> +
> Volume Serial (If not cataloged)
>
>
> Tom Chicklon

From my earlier (10/23/2007) post with subject
"z/OS 1.9 Features summary" ...

_TSO, CLIST, REXX, ISPF/Dialog Manager:_

* ISPF: scrollable fields; introduced in 1.5,
enhanced in 1.8 (ZCLRSFLD command), more
widely used in 1.9
[discussed in "ISPF Update"; details covered
in "Developing Dialog Manager Applications
in z/OS"]


* ISPF Edit and View: SOURCE command allows you to
edit and view data in ASCII; LF command lets you
set x'0A's to EBCDIC new lines
[discussed in "Advanced ISPF in z/OS"]


* Many ISPF data set name entry fields now
support z/OS HFS UNIX files

* Edit and View entry panel
* Edit / View CREATE / REPLACE / COPY / MOVE
[discussed in "TSO/ISPF in z/OS", "ISPF Update",
and in "ISPF and JCL on z/OS"]


* HFS file names and path names can be kept in
personal reference lists)
[discussed in "TSO/ISPF in z/OS", "ISPF Update",
and in "ISPF and JCL on z/OS"]


* The UNIX Directory List Utility (3.17) now uses edit
and browse instead of oedit and obrowse; there is
also a view option now.
[discussed in "ISPF Update" and "Introduction to
z/OS UNIX"]


* Dialog Manager BROWSE, EDIT, and VIEW services now
support z/OS UNIX files
[discussed in "Developing Dialog Manager Applications
in z/OS"]


Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
+ Useful utilities and subroutines
+ Tips and techniques

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[Roger Lowe]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:22:02 -0600, Roger Lowe <***@BIGPOND.COM> wrote:

>>>...
>I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
>Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up yet
>to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !
>
>
Just an addendum to my above post - have found a draft Redbook "z/OS Version
1 Release 9 Implementation" SG24-7427, which discusses some enhancements to
ISPF in relation to z/OS Unix files.

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[Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3]

>I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real"
>Unix shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to
>use the TSO OMVS command.

Out of curiosity and to better understand your requirement, can you
give some examples of where it is necessary of convenient? I just hardly
ever use TSO OMVS if I have telnet/ssh available. I do the TSO/ISPF
stuff in the 3270 TSO session and the unix stuff in one or more
telnet/ssh sesions.

>I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF
>dialog, but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...

Remember, TSO OMVS starts a UNIX shell (such as /bin/sh) in the
background and then acts kind of like a mediator between the
half-duplex 3270 forground TSO session and the full duplex
UNIX background session. One of the things it has to do is cache
all STDOUT and STDERR output from the UNIX session, "translate" it
to "3270 data stream" and display it in chunks.


This it not meant to justify the current implementation. I just
wanted to support your impression it would not be easy to do.
It will have its rough edges whatever you try, I think. As said,
I just don't have a need for it.

--
Peter Hunkeler
Credit Suisse

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[Walt Farrell]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf <***@DOVETAIL.COM> wrote:

>I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real" Unix
>shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
>OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an
> ISPF dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this bother
anyone
>else or am I missing an obvious work-around?
>

If you're really wondering why it's not better integrated, you should ask on
MVS-OE, instead, as the z/OS UNIX developers do not (as far as I know) hang
out on IBM-MAIN.

--
Walt

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[Kirk Wolf]

Agreed - MVS-OE is a better place to discuss OMVS per se,
but I'm really more interested in understanding whether ISPF dialogs can
support pseudo-full-duplex 3270 processing - something like the MVS console.

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies

On Nov 29, 2007 6:52 AM, Walt Farrell <***@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf <***@DOVETAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> >I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real" Unix
> >shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
> >OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an
> > ISPF dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this
> bother
> anyone
> >else or am I missing an obvious work-around?
> >
>
> If you're really wondering why it's not better integrated, you should ask
> on
> MVS-OE, instead, as the z/OS UNIX developers do not (as far as I know)
> hang
> out on IBM-MAIN.
>
> --
> Walt
>
>

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[Lindy Mayfield]

Hi Kirk,

I've created a Rexx / ISPF application panel that scrolls dynamically on
its own before, just for fun mostly to see if I could do it. I'm sure
there are other ways to do it, but for mine (as I recall) I did
something like this:

TBADD MYRECORD
TBTOP MYRECORD
<some check on the size>
TBTOP MYRECORD
TBSKIP MYRECORD NUMBER(n)
CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK
TBDISPL MYRECORD PANEL(MYPANEL)

This was ok for me because I was using tables to simplify things, but
for what you are talking about it would be better to use a dynamic area.
The trick was the CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK command.

Regards,
Lindy

P.S. If you are interested in seeing it, I can try to gut the essence of
it and put together a simple demo Rexx exec that automatically scrolls.
Or I can send you the original. It was just a simple thing that looked
at TCP/IP resolver parameters, back in OS/390 days.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> Sent: 29. marraskuuta 2007 15:32
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
> Agreed - MVS-OE is a better place to discuss OMVS per se,
> but I'm really more interested in understanding whether ISPF dialogs
can
> support pseudo-full-duplex 3270 processing - something like the MVS
> console.
>
> Kirk Wolf
> Dovetailed Technologies

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[Kirk Wolf]

Lindy,

Can it accept input from a command area while do this?
In other words, rows would be added to the table as they arrived from the
shell stdout, but input would be accepted as well.

It would seem to me that "CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK" would cause the table
display to be updated, but leave the keyboard locked for input, but I don't
really understand ISPF that well any more.

Kirk

On Nov 29, 2007 2:19 PM, Lindy Mayfield <***@ssf.sas.com> wrote:

> Hi Kirk,
>
> I've created a Rexx / ISPF application panel that scrolls dynamically on
> its own before, just for fun mostly to see if I could do it. I'm sure
> there are other ways to do it, but for mine (as I recall) I did
> something like this:
>
> TBADD MYRECORD
> TBTOP MYRECORD
> <some check on the size>
> TBTOP MYRECORD
> TBSKIP MYRECORD NUMBER(n)
> CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK
> TBDISPL MYRECORD PANEL(MYPANEL)
>
> This was ok for me because I was using tables to simplify things, but
> for what you are talking about it would be better to use a dynamic area.
> The trick was the CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK command.
>
> Regards,
> Lindy
>
> P.S. If you are interested in seeing it, I can try to gut the essence of
> it and put together a simple demo Rexx exec that automatically scrolls.
> Or I can send you the original. It was just a simple thing that looked
> at TCP/IP resolver parameters, back in OS/390 days.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> > Sent: 29. marraskuuta 2007 15:32
> > To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
> >
> > Agreed - MVS-OE is a better place to discuss OMVS per se,
> > but I'm really more interested in understanding whether ISPF dialogs
> can
> > support pseudo-full-duplex 3270 processing - something like the MVS
> > console.
> >
> > Kirk Wolf
> > Dovetailed Technologies
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Lindy Mayfield]

Kirk,

That's an excellent point. I was actually thinking about that just after I answered -- how one might check for some sort of input to pause, stop or cancel things. I think it could probably be done somehow though. Still it would be a kludge and probably awkward.

Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270 and that for a Unix shell TCP/IP clients like telnet, rlogin, and ssh are superior. On the other hand, just for the sake of discussion, we've taken a step backwards with one of our newest technologies, http and web pages. Their behavior is almost identical to a 3270 application and you have to jump through some hoops and fake things to get a scrolling output.

Funny, I was just looking again at OMVS which I rarely use unless I have to cause I hate it. I did an ls -la /tmp/ without realizing that there were a few thousand files there. It has been scrolling away for almost 10 minutes now. (-: It says at the bottom left:

ESC=¢

But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it. (-:

Lindy


> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> Sent: 29. marraskuuta 2007 22:37
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
> Lindy,
>
> Can it accept input from a command area while do this?
> In other words, rows would be added to the table as they arrived from the
> shell stdout, but input would be accepted as well.
>
> It would seem to me that "CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK" would cause the table
> display to be updated, but leave the keyboard locked for input, but I
> don't
> really understand ISPF that well any more.
>
> Kirk
>
> On Nov 29, 2007 2:19 PM, Lindy Mayfield <***@ssf.sas.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Kirk,
> >
> > I've created a Rexx / ISPF application panel that scrolls dynamically on
> > its own before, just for fun mostly to see if I could do it.

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:09 PM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

<snip>

>
> Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270 and
> that for a Unix shell TCP/IP clients like telnet, rlogin, and
> ssh are superior. On the other hand, just for the sake of
> discussion, we've taken a step backwards with one of our
> newest technologies, http and web pages. Their behavior is
> almost identical to a 3270 application and you have to jump
> through some hoops and fake things to get a scrolling output.

I don't know if it is a "hoop", but AJAX and Javascript make this
relatively easy.

<snip>

> Lindy



--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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[Steve Comstock]

Lindy Mayfield wrote:
> Kirk,
>
> That's an excellent point. I was actually thinking about that just after I answered -- how one might check for some sort of input to pause, stop or cancel things. I think it could probably be done somehow though. Still it would be a kludge and probably awkward.
>
> Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270 and that for a Unix shell TCP/IP clients like telnet, rlogin, and ssh are superior. On the other hand, just for the sake of discussion, we've taken a step backwards with one of our newest technologies, http and web pages. Their behavior is almost identical to a 3270 application and you have to jump through some hoops and fake things to get a scrolling output.
>
> Funny, I was just looking again at OMVS which I rarely use unless I have to cause I hate it. I did an ls -la /tmp/ without realizing that there were a few thousand files there. It has been scrolling away for almost 10 minutes now. (-: It says at the bottom left:
>
> ESC=¢
>
> But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it. (-:

For future reference, when you start up omvs, you can
specify the key to use for escape:

omvs esc('^')

then use shift+6 followed by a c or a d




Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
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[Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3]

>ESC=¢
>
>But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it.

Don't you have the cent sign key on your keyboard? The "ESC"
in TSO OMVS is somewhat special. There is no way of sending
Ctrl-c (or any other control key) to the shell because 3270
simply does not support them. OMVS' workaround is the "ESC"
character. Type this (the ¢) directly folloed by the letter
representing the control-sequence you want to send (e.g. Ctrl-c)
and press enter. OMVS will translate the two characters "¢c"
to a single Ctrl-c and sends this to the shell.

So ¢c + <enter> should occasionally cancel your long running
ls command. Note, however, that it might not work so immediately
as it would in a telnet shell session. This is because OMVS
buffers lines it receives from the shell and updates the 3270
display regularly, in the long running ls case, whenever it
has buffered a screen full of data. With this concept, the
ls might already have sent a bunch of lines to the OMVS buffer
which have not yet been displayed. OMVS will continue to to
empty the buffer even after the shell has cancelled the ls
due to the ctrl-c.

If the ¢-sign is inconvenient for you, you can change it
upon OMVS invocation using the ESCAPE('...') parameter

--
Peter Hunkeler
Credit Suisse

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[shmuel+ (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.)]

In <***@emeamail15.emea.sas.com>, on
11/29/2007
at 10:09 PM, Lindy Mayfield <***@SSF.SAS.COM> said:

>Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270

No, just the nature of ISPF.

>But I have no idea where the ¢ key is

Consult the documentation for your 3270 simulator, or use something other
than ¢.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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[shmuel+ (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.)]

In <LISTSERV%***@BAMA.UA.EDU>, on 11/29/2007
at 06:52 AM, Walt Farrell <***@US.IBM.COM> said:

>If you're really wondering why it's not better integrated, you should ask
>on MVS-OE, instead,

Were IBM to implement an ISPF panel for running Unix commands, would it be
owned by ISPF or by OMVS? The former seems more likely.

It wouldn't hurt to post the question on ISPF-L, but my guess is that
IBM-MAIN is the most productive place for the question.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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[Mark Zelden]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:13:25 +0100, R.S. <***@BREMULTIBANK.COM.PL> wrote:

>Roger Lowe wrote:
>[...]
>> I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
>> Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up yet
>> to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !
>
>AFAIK it is available for some time, maybe in 1.9 it is enhanced somehow

It is. z/OS 1.8 added 3.17 (UDLIST). In 1.9 all panels can access unix
files / directories and there is some help for ascii translation.

>
>Regarding to Kirk's question: I miss it (the functionality) too. I don't
>know any reasonable workaround, sometimes I simply use two sessions: two
>3270 emulator windows, two userids... better than nothing...
>


Why 2 3270 sessions? When I want 3270 I use ISHELL (or one of the ISPF
extentions), if I want a unix shell I telnet into z/OS UNIX. Any decent
telnet
client (not the win-doze one) will allow you to scroll back and forth and you
can use editors like VI and EMACS from a telnet session. The setup to telnet
directly into z/OS UNIX is very simple. Ocassionally I use TSO OMVS if I
only need a shell for a short period of time.

Mark
--
Mark Zelden
Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:***@zurichna.com
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:50 PM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
>
> I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a
> "real" Unix
> shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to
> the the TSO
> OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing
> wasn't an ISPF
> dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this
> bother anyone
> else or am I missing an obvious work-around?
>
> I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an
> ISPF dialog,
> but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
>
> What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS) ISPF
> application - one thread handles normal input processing, and
> the other
> updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it
> arrives. I
> could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
> "half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the
> single-thread
> problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
> "full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
>
> Comments appreciated,
>
> Kirk Wolf
> Dovetailed Technologies LLC

From what IBM has said, the problem is that the UNIX terminal I/O is
basically asynchronous or maybe it was "full duplex". 3270 in TSO is not
full duplex, by design (or misdesign). ISPF uses the basic TSO
facilities for terminal I/O (TPUT/TGET/TPG?). The OMVS interface, from
what I was told, works by waiting some period of time for output from
the UNIX command. During this time, any output from the UNIX command is
sent to the TSO session and displayed. When the "timer pops", the OMVS
command in TSO "hangs a read" command (TGET?) to the terminal. During
this time, the UNIX command's output cannot be displayed (it is being
buffered). That's why you need to press the PF10 (refresh) key
periodically. This takes the OMVS interface out of "input mode",
displays any queued output, and sets the timer again.

I only use the TSO OMVS interface when I need to do a set of short
commands.

I use ISHELL, at times, to run some UNIX commands.

I use OSHELL at other times to run some UNIX commands.

I use option 3.17 (z/OS 1.8) to edit UNIX files.

I use telnet/ssh when I plan to do a lot of UNIX work (Hummingbird
emulator on Windows or the bundled telnet/ssh on my Linux desktop).

In some cases, I use vim on my Linux desktop to edit files on Linux.
This is in a directory on the Linux system which is exported via NFS to
the z/OS sytem (chmod 1777 on Linux). The z/OS NFS client mounts the
directory with XLAT(Y) to do automatic ASCII<->EBCDIC translation. I
then use a z/OS UNIX command such as "OSHELL cp /nfs/mounted/file
/zos/file" to copy the Linux resident file onto a z/OS filesystem.
Unfortunately, NFS is a bit of a CPU hog, so I don't do this often.

In a truly weird scenario. I've been known to copy the file from z/OS to
the Linux desktop (via NFS), vim edit it to do some regular expression
changes, copy the file back from Linux to z/OS (via NFS), then use 3.17
to finish up my editing. I really despise the z/OS UNIX version of "vi".
I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared to bash on
Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
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[Mark Post]

>>> On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 9:21 AM, in message
<***@UICNRHECHP6.uicnrh.dom>, "McKown,
John" <***@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> wrote:
-snip-
> I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared to bash on
> Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.

The shell on USS is the same as on AIX. I never had the time to learn it properly, so the conflicting command options between it and bash always drove me nuts as well. I got around it by compiling bash and using that. (Or I used a version of bash from the ported tools page. My memory is failing me there.) That was much more comfortable.


Mark Post

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[Steve Comstock]

Mark Post wrote:
>>>>On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 9:21 AM, in message
>
> <***@UICNRHECHP6.uicnrh.dom>, "McKown,
> John" <***@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> wrote:
> -snip-
>
>>I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared to bash on
>>Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.
>
>
> The shell on USS is the same as on AIX. I never had the time
> to learn it properly, so the conflicting command options
> between it and bash always drove me nuts as well. I got
> around it by compiling bash and using that. (Or I used a
> version of bash from the ported tools page. My memory is
> failing me there.) That was much more comfortable.

Clearly a matter of what you "grew up" with. For 25+ years I
worked on mainframes and UNIX was always the enemy. For the
last 8 years I have been learning, and developing training
courses about, z/OS UNIX. Not having any previous experience
with UNIX has actually been, to my mind, a benefit. I'm having
fun with it and don't miss things I've never seen.

I especially appreciate the omvs facility and recent ISPF
enhancements that others seem to despise. For long time
mainframe developers, this is a very comfortable environment
and you never have to say "vi". :-)


Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
+ Useful utilities and subroutines
+ Tips and techniques

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Comstock
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:25 AM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
>
> Mark Post wrote:
> >>>>On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 9:21 AM, in message
> >
> >
> <***@UICNRHECHP6.uicnrh.d
> om>, "McKown,
> > John" <***@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> wrote:
> > -snip-
> >
> >>I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared
> to bash on
> >>Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.
> >
> >
> > The shell on USS is the same as on AIX. I never had the time
> > to learn it properly, so the conflicting command options
> > between it and bash always drove me nuts as well. I got
> > around it by compiling bash and using that. (Or I used a
> > version of bash from the ported tools page. My memory is
> > failing me there.) That was much more comfortable.
>
> Clearly a matter of what you "grew up" with. For 25+ years I
> worked on mainframes and UNIX was always the enemy. For the
> last 8 years I have been learning, and developing training
> courses about, z/OS UNIX. Not having any previous experience
> with UNIX has actually been, to my mind, a benefit. I'm having
> fun with it and don't miss things I've never seen.

I generally like the new stuff in ISPF (z/OS 1.8) for doing UNIX work.
But I despise TSO OMVS.

>
> I especially appreciate the omvs facility and recent ISPF
> enhancements that others seem to despise. For long time
> mainframe developers, this is a very comfortable environment
> and you never have to say "vi". :-)

<war type="editor" subtype="religious" intensity="flame">
If IBM ever puts regular expressions in PDF edit/OEDIT, "vi" will become
just a bad dream.
</war>

>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> -Steve Comstock


--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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[Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3]

>I'm having fun with it and don't miss things I've never seen.

I'm just about in the same situation as you are. And, believe
it or not, I'm even having fun using vi :-) I'm far from being
a vi expert and I don't intent to become one, but, but I am able
to edit files in a plain UNIX shells, on z/OS, Linux, AIX, ...

--
Peter Hunkeler
Credit Suisse

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[shmuel+ (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.)]

In <***@UICNRHECHP6.uicnrh.dom>, on
11/29/2007
at 08:21 AM, "McKown, John" <***@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> said:

>ISPF uses the basic TSO
>facilities for terminal I/O (TPUT/TGET/TPG?).

Those facilities don't require you to wait for user input. You may need to
use macros beyond the one's you listed.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf wrote:

>I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a "real" Unix
>shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
>OMVS command. It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an ISPF
>dialog so that you could split the screen, etc. Doesn't this bother anyone
>else or am I missing an obvious work-around?
>
This is a pervasive deficiency of TSO, far antedating z/OS Unix. For
example, in the ISPF TSO "Command Shell" (Option 6), when I issue a
command that does linemode I/O, why doesn't it the linemode output
stay in its split, and let me alternate with editing in the other?

This sort of inversion of the desirable layering of functions is far
too typical of IBM design.

I suspect it has much to do with the two branch technique TSO uses to
preserve the integrity of authorized commands.

>I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF dialog,
>but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...
>
>What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS) ISPF
>application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the other
>updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives. I
>could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
>"half-duplex" 3270 conversations. I could work around the single-thread
>problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
>"full-duplex" 3270 conversations.
>
I would hold more hope for making z/OS Unix the executive, and starting
multiple ISPGUI or WSA processes in separate process spaces.

And I'll repeat my wish for "background initiated foreground". x3270
is open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.
As many concurrent sessions as one wishes, even on a single host.
The hard part is getting TSO to talk to sockets instead of to VTAM.

-- gil

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:56 AM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

<snip>

>
> And I'll repeat my wish for "background initiated foreground". x3270
> is open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
> invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.
> As many concurrent sessions as one wishes, even on a single host.

Actually, this should be rather simple. Set up a UNIX environment. Set
the DISPLAY environment variable to have the IP or host name of the
desktop. Set your X server on the desktop to allow connections from the
z/OS system (xhost). Invoke x3270.

How is this superior to doing a x3270 on my desktop? I am not
understanding the reason to run x3270 on z/OS instead of the desktop.

If you mean do this x3270 stuff from your TSO session, then the
complication would be the switching from one x3270 session to another.
And, from what little I understand, TSO is not really set up to be
multitasking. That is why ISPF does not really integrate TSO commands
from option 6 into its environment. I think that to do this, something
would need to "trap" the TPUT/TGET/TPG calls (subsystem SVC screening?)
and implement a sort of set of virtual 3270 terminals which can be
switched between. But x3270 isn't needed to do this, at least I can
think of why it would be. Oh, just so everybody knows (as if they didn't
already), I'm really getting out of my depth in this.


> The hard part is getting TSO to talk to sockets instead of to VTAM.

I know that BMC has some code which allows their TSO/ISPF Mainview
interfaces to be used in a started task (similar to TSO in that one logs
onto the STC, but the STC starts another STC and does a CLDST PASS to
pass control of the LU to the new STC). I wonder if they might be
interested in looking at how difficult it would be to change their
"emulation" code to talk to sockets instead of VTAM. However, this is
deprecated in favor of using a web browser to interface to their new
STC.

>
> -- gil


--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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[shmuel+ (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.)]

In <LISTSERV%***@BAMA.UA.EDU>, on 11/29/2007
at 09:56 AM, Paul Gilmartin <***@UNIX.STORTEK.COM> said:

>This is a pervasive deficiency of TSO,

Don't confuse TSO with ISPF; the required facilities are there but ISPF
doesn't exploit them.

>And I'll repeat my wish for "background initiated foreground". x3270 is
>open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
>invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.

You don't need x3270, or any other TN3270 client, just some enhancements
to the WAS support. The code has been there for a long time to allow a
batch ISPF job to connect to WSA.

>The hard part is getting TSO to talk to sockets instead of to VTAM.

Why do you believe that sockets are relevant to your proposal? A TN3270
server communicates via SNA, so no TSO change is necessary in order to use
x3270.


In <LISTSERV%***@BAMA.UA.EDU>, on 11/29/2007
at 06:09 PM, Paul Gilmartin <***@UNIX.STORTEK.COM> said:

>Anyone who believe that's a fundamental limitation of 3270
>hardware that can't be worked around:

>o Has never used VM/CMS

>o Has been brainwashed by TSO

ROTF,LMAO! That hasn't been a limitation of TSO for decades. It's a
limitation if ISPF, and I'd be very surprised if the CMS version of ISPF
didn't have the same limitation.

>I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
>bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams more
>directly to the terminal.

I doubt it. If it's done by the same people with the same design it will
have the same limitations, and you'll be unhappy. If it's done by someone
that understands TSO and with an interface requirement to eliminate the
wait, then it will be done that way.


In <LISTSERV%***@BAMA.UA.EDU>, on 11/29/2007
at 06:22 PM, Paul Gilmartin <***@UNIX.STORTEK.COM> said:

>Suppose in each of those (or in concurrent processes from a single
>TTY session) I could invoke a Rexx EXEC which says
>"ADDRESS TSO ISPGUI", or "ADDRESS TSO WSA" displaying a 3270 terminal
>emulator on my desktop.

Then there would have to be a complete redesign of ISPGUI, because the WSA
support does not use a 3270 simulator. In fact, the whole point of a WSA
session is that it is not a 3270 session.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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[Mark S. House]

We are attempting to run full volume dumps prior to moving from one system
to another. We use ARCCMD to set the DUMP for Saturday and Sunday. We
want to run them on Friday night. We modified the ARCCMD and then cycle
HSM. However when we go to use the tapes on Friday night, HSM will not
let us use them. We do not use RRS, or any other real tape management
system.
How can we expire the tapes, and force the full volume Dumps to
run one day early. Thanks.



Mark House
[phone]
IBM Mainframe Systems
***@tsainc.com

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[Traylor, Terry]

Make sure the DEFINE DUMPCYCLE command specifies Y in position 6 of the
first field.

Make sure the DEFINE DUMPCLASS command specifies DAY(6).

BTW, You can create a new DUMPCLASS for just Friday night processing.


Terry Traylor
charlesSCHWAB
TIS Mainframe Storage Management
Remedy Queue: tis-hs-mstg
[phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Mark S. House
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:33 PM
To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: DFSMSHSM Full Volume Dumps off schedule

We are attempting to run full volume dumps prior to moving from one
system to another. We use ARCCMD to set the DUMP for Saturday and
Sunday. We want to run them on Friday night. We modified the ARCCMD
and then cycle HSM. However when we go to use the tapes on Friday
night, HSM will not let us use them. We do not use RRS, or any other
real tape management system.
How can we expire the tapes, and force the full volume Dumps to
run one day early. Thanks.



Mark House
[phone]
IBM Mainframe Systems
***@tsainc.com

This e-mail message and any attachments may contain confidential,
proprietary or non-public information. This information is intended
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immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any review, dissemination, use or
reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited.
Any opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author
personally.


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[Mark Zelden]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:09:08 +0100, Lindy Mayfield
<***@SSF.SAS.COM> wrote:


>
>Funny, I was just looking again at OMVS which I rarely use unless I have to
cause I hate it. I did an ls -la /tmp/ without realizing that there were a
few thousand files there. It has been scrolling away for almost 10 minutes
now. (-: It says at the bottom left:
>
>ESC=¢
>
>But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it. (-:
>

Usually have to map it in your 3270 emulator. Cut/paste from the OMVS
screen...

I usually run the TSO OMVS shell with auto-scrolling off. You can set that
at invocation (HELP OMVS for details) or use PF2 (subcommand) and type
NOAUTO. Then if you ran into the same situation you could use PF2
and QUIT. :-)

Mark
--
Mark Zelden
Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:***@zurichna.com
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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[Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3]

>I usually run the TSO OMVS shell with auto-scrolling off. You
>can set that at invocation (HELP OMVS for details) or use PF2
>(subcommand) and type NOAUTO. Then if you ran into the same
>situation you could use PF2 and QUIT. :-)

You should be able to use PF2 (entering OMVS Subcommand mode)
even with autoscroll. BTW, you can type "quit" and then hit
PF2 which is even faster that hitting PF2 first.

--
Peter Hunkeler
Credit Suisse

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:03:23 -0700, Steve Comstock wrote:
>
>I would be happy with a swap command to swap among omvs
>
How would that be different from the "NextSess" command
(PF9 by default)?

>sessions and a different swap command to swap from an
>omvs screen to the ISPF split screen sessions.
>
Now, _that_ would be nice.

-- gil

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:42:32 -0600, Patrick O'Keefe wrote:
>
>I rarely do much Unixy stuff so what is comfortable for me is
>probably far from what you want, but it sounds like ISHELL
>addresses some of what you are asking for. It certainly doesn't
>address the half-duplex nature of 3270 datastreams. (3270
>datastreams ARE half-duplex.) ...
>
Anyone who believe that's a fundamental limitation of 3270
hardware that can't be worked around:

o Has never used VM/CMS

o Has been brainwashed by TSO

... probably both. On CMS, I can type input to my program, while
it runs, in anticipation of a VM READ. I can type immediate commands
to my Rexx EXEC to turn on tracing with no ATTN nor need to wait for
in input prompt.

Yes, in theory there's an ugly race condition. If I type HX when
the status shows RUNNING, I can't be sure that the command won't
be swallowed by a VM READ issued just as I press ENTER. I suppose
it's horrendous if HX happens to be a dialog command that the problem
program interprets as "ERASE * * *".

In practice, it works beautifully; I sometimes get caught by that
race. I curse quietly, then ask myself, "Would I prefer TSO's
terminal handling protocol?" "No."

It has also been mentioned a couple times in this thread that the
z/OS operator's 327x console is free of the half-duplex constraint:
the operator never needs to press ATTN before entering a command.

I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams
more directly to the terminal.

-- gil

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[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

***@UNIX.STORTEK.COM (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
> Anyone who believe that's a fundamental limitation of 3270
> hardware that can't be worked around:
>
> o Has never used VM/CMS
>
> o Has been brainwashed by TSO
>
> ... probably both. On CMS, I can type input to my program, while
> it runs, in anticipation of a VM READ. I can type immediate commands
> to my Rexx EXEC to turn on tracing with no ATTN nor need to wait for
> in input prompt.

we actually did some hardware mods to 3277 to eliminate race condition
if you happened to type at the instant the system wrote to the terminal
(which would lock the keyboard) ... aka 327x being half-duplex
infrastructure.

we complained about the change-over to 3274 controller with 3278
terminal (i.e. effectively terminal manufacturing cost reduction moving
a lot of components back into shared controller). having shared
electronics back in 3274 controller made 3278 terminal operations
(including response) a lot slower. complaining about it basically got a
response was that the significant hardware slowdown effectively wasn't
noticeable since mvs (&tso) was so slow anyway that it wasn't
noticeable.

post with old 3272/3274 comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

difference als shows up later with terminal emulation and the difference
between file download with "ANR" (i.e. 3272/3277) and "DCA" (i.e.
3274/3278) protocols (anr three times dca thruput)

lots of past posts mentioning terminal emulation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#emulation

for some total topic drift ... old email mentioning tso product manager
asking me if i would consider doing version of my resource manager for
mvs/tso operation (this was after marketing division decided to start
marketing CMS as the corporations strategic interactive product)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#email800310
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email800310b

reference in these posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#39 another blast from the past
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#23 Ranking of non-IBM mainframe builders?

in some sense, CMS provided interactive personal computing in 60s, 70s
and some part of the 80s ... but then saw personal computing starting to
shift to PCs.

for other folklore topic drift, cern did a report at share circa '74
about tso/cms bakeoff. internally within the company, copies of the
report were classified "confidential - restricted" (i.e. available on
need-to-know only) ... aka while they couldn't restrict its availability
to customers ... they could restrict its availability to people in
marketing and product development.

... and courtesy of the science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

virtual machines, cp67, cms (originally stood for cambridge monitor
system before renamed to conversational monitor system as part of vm370
morph), gml (invented in '69 at the science center) precursor to sgml,
html, xml, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#sgml

and internal network technology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
also used in bitnet/earn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet

here is reference discussing transformation from sgml to html at cern
http://infomesh.net/html/history/early

and first webserver outside europe was on slac vm370 system:
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml

[Kirk Wolf]

It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
responses have been very helpful to me. Thanks.

For me, key points are:

1) OMVS works in a pinch, but I'm not the only one that finds it painful.
OEDIT or OBROWSE commands get you back into an ISPF dialog so that you can
flip around with other dialogs / splits, etc.

2) ISPF can't handle "pseudo full duplex" 3270 sessions (like VM/CMS,
MVS/Console, etc.), so it is not obvious that a really nice OMVS replacement
could be written as an ISPF dialog.

3) ISHELL can be used not only as a filesystem navigator, but also to enter
shell commands. It is an ISPF dialog, so doesn't suffer in the same ways as
OMVS.

4) If you want a real Unix shell, your best bet is to use a (non-3270)
Telnet or SSH shell. (Putty on Windows or "ssh" on Linux are good choices)

Thanks,

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies LLC

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[Lindy Mayfield]

I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11. We've recently
installed z/OS 1.9.

Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
3.01296 out of PI.

(If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
moves from 0 - 100 percent.)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> Sent: 30. marraskuuta 2007 7:21
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
> It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
> responses have been very helpful to me. Thanks.

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[Kirk Wolf]

Character-drawn window "popups"? Yeah, this is some really cool UI
technology :-)
What next, a GDDM-rendered dog avitar that pops up with suggestions while
you are trying to figure out the ISMF screens?

3270-ISPF development should be quiesced in favor of the likely follow-on
product:
"ISPF-Link" (built on the IBMLink web technology stack)

All in good fun,
Kirk Wolf

On Nov 30, 2007 2:15 PM, Lindy Mayfield <***@ssf.sas.com> wrote:

> I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
> based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11. We've recently
> installed z/OS 1.9.
>
> Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
> 3.01296 out of PI.
>
> (If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
> moves from 0 - 100 percent.)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.E<IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU>]
> On
> > Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> > Sent: 30. marraskuuta 2007 7:21
> > To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
> >
> > It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
> > responses have been very helpful to me. Thanks.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Lindy Mayfield]

Seriously, I read that about the dog avatar while I was drinking some
juice, laughed and nearly died when the black currant mixed berry
cocktail went down the wrong pipe.

It's all fun and games until someone chokes to death.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
> Sent: 30. marraskuuta 2007 23:00
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
> Character-drawn window "popups"? Yeah, this is some really cool UI
> technology :-)
> What next, a GDDM-rendered dog avitar that pops up with suggestions
while
> you are trying to figure out the ISMF screens?
>
> 3270-ISPF development should be quiesced in favor of the likely
follow-on
> product:
> "ISPF-Link" (built on the IBMLink web technology stack)
>
> All in good fun,
> Kirk Wolf
>

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[Don Leahy]

Progress bars are cool, but nothing new. They have been easy to code since
the CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK service was added to ISPF, back before the turn of
the century. Only takes a few lines of code.

That IBM would add something so flashy to ISPF *is* a surprise though.


On Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM, Lindy Mayfield <***@ssf.sas.com> wrote:

> I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
> based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11. We've recently
> installed z/OS 1.9.
>
> Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
> 3.01296 out of PI.
>
> (If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
> moves from 0 - 100 percent.)
>

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[Chase, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> [ snip ]
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM, Lindy Mayfield wrote:
>
> > I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my
> > datasets based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11. We've
> > recently installed z/OS 1.9.
> >
> > Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
> > 3.01296 out of PI.
> >
> > (If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar
that
> > moves from 0 - 100 percent.)

With what effect on VWLC charges?

-jc-

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:09 PM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>

<snip>

>
> It has also been mentioned a couple times in this thread that the
> z/OS operator's 327x console is free of the half-duplex constraint:
> the operator never needs to press ATTN before entering a command.
>
> I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
> bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams
> more directly to the terminal.

Can't be VTAM. Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console. We now use them for
some Production Control people who are remote to the data center, but
need to have a console around to see messages "real time". TN3270E to
VTAM to SMCS for a console. Works well with all three of our TN3270
terminal emulators (Hummingbird, BlueZone, and Rumba).

>
> -- gil

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
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strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
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[Shane]

On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 08:43 -0600, McKown, John wrote:

> Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
> 3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console.

Mmmmm - try and see a NIP failure on a SMCS console.
Has it's place, but doesn't replace the flight-deck IMHO.

Shane ...

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shane
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:55 AM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: SMCS ... was something else entirely.
>
>
> On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 08:43 -0600, McKown, John wrote:
>
> > Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
> > 3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console.
>
> Mmmmm - try and see a NIP failure on a SMCS console.
> Has it's place, but doesn't replace the flight-deck IMHO.
>
> Shane ...

True. I should have mentioned that SMCS consoles are only available
after VTAM is up, and maybe TCPIP as well for TN3270 emulation. They are
fine for Production control users to have a console, not for IPL uses.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is
strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:15:57 -0600, McKown, John wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
>> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:56 AM
>> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> And I'll repeat my wish for "background initiated foreground". x3270
>> is open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
>> invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.
>> As many concurrent sessions as one wishes, even on a single host.
>
>Actually, this should be rather simple. Set up a UNIX environment. Set
>the DISPLAY environment variable to have the IP or host name of the
>desktop. Set your X server on the desktop to allow connections from the
>z/OS system (xhost). Invoke x3270.
>
>How is this superior to doing a x3270 on my desktop? I am not
>understanding the reason to run x3270 on z/OS instead of the desktop.
>
Because that way you can have only one x3270 TSO ISPF or OMVS session
per user ID at a time.

I can have several TTY z/OS Unix sessions concurrently. Suppose
in each of those (or in concurrent processes from a single
TTY session) I could invoke a Rexx EXEC which says
"ADDRESS TSO ISPGUI", or "ADDRESS TSO WSA" displaying a 3270
terminal emulator on my desktop. I could then have a 3270
OMVS session and a 3270 TSO session displaying in terminal
emulators on my desktop.

Of course, this would be exactly the effect of having multiple
concurrent 3270 TSO/ISPF sessions for a single user ID, but
IBM seems determined not to address that problem.

-- gil

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:20:49 -0600, Kirk Wolf wrote:

>It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
>responses have been very helpful to me. Thanks.
>
>For me, key points are:
>
>1) OMVS works in a pinch, but I'm not the only one that finds it painful.
>OEDIT or OBROWSE commands get you back into an ISPF dialog so that you can
>flip around with other dialogs / splits, etc.
>
And I assume that in that ISPF dialog you could enter "TSO OMVS" on
the command line. But that creates a new OMVS session. You can't
swap back and forth neither to the original OMVS session nor to the
dialog(s) in the split adjacent to that from which you launched it.

>2) ISPF can't handle "pseudo full duplex" 3270 sessions (like VM/CMS,
>MVS/Console, etc.), so it is not obvious that a really nice OMVS replacement
>could be written as an ISPF dialog.
>
"not obvious", or even "obviously not"?

>3) ISHELL can be used not only as a filesystem navigator, but also to enter
>shell commands. It is an ISPF dialog, so doesn't suffer in the same ways as
>OMVS.
>
It suffers in some of the same ways; in some ways different, even worse.
Principally, it's basically a batch protocol; you don't see output until
the shell command completes. You can't even tell whether it's looping,
perhaps spewing to stdout.

It might even be a better option to enter the shell command in a BPXBATCH
or BPXWUNIX batch job. At least that way you can monitor its output with
SDSF or ISV replacements.

>4) If you want a real Unix shell, your best bet is to use a (non-3270)
>Telnet or SSH shell. (Putty on Windows or "ssh" on Linux are good choices)
>
Yes.

-- gil

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:43:38 -0600, McKown, John wrote:
>
>> It has also been mentioned a couple times in this thread that the
>> z/OS operator's 327x console is free of the half-duplex constraint:
>> the operator never needs to press ATTN before entering a command.
>>
>> I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
>> bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams
>> more directly to the terminal.
>
>Can't be VTAM. Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
>3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console. We now use them for
>some Production Control people who are remote to the data center, but
>need to have a console around to see messages "real time". TN3270E to
>VTAM to SMCS for a console. Works well with all three of our TN3270
>terminal emulators (Hummingbird, BlueZone, and Rumba).
>
As an experiment, I composed the EXEC on VM/CMS:

/* Rexx */
signal on novalue
address 'COMMAND'

do forever
say date() time()
do while externals()>0
parse pull Line
say Line; end
'PIPE literal +10 | delay'; end

... then from an ISPF session, I "TSO TELNET VMCMS" in 3270 mode.
It mostly works; I can type ahead for 10 seconds, and the input
typed ahead comes out in the pull...say loop. But it stutters;
some characters are repeated; it seems that I can type characters
after I press ENTER but before the cursor is placed at the left
end of the input area. I wonder whether TELNET plays the same
invisible polling game as OMVS? Now I must try it from a linemode
z/OS Unix session, if only to see how externals() behaves under Unix.

About SMCS being unavailable during IPL, haven't I seen some
discussion here of a remote HMC? Would that suffice? Or are
there operator commands that can't be issued at the HMC?

And more on your perplexity about my suggestion of "background
initiated foreground": I've seen some sentiment here that a
class of users prefer linemode for general Unix operations, but
OEDIT/OBROWSE in their specialty areas. Wouldn't it be at least
convenient in a linemode z/OS Unix session to issue:

DISPLAY=local.desktop export DISPLAY
oedit some.file

... and have a new, genuine x3270 window running ISPF/PDF pop
up on one's desktop? No need to enter user ID and password;
current working directory and environment inherited from the
Unix session; and if the user has issued a "su" command, OEDIT
would run with the new user ID, not that of the original TSO
session as is the present (mis-)behavior of OEDIT under OMVS.

-- gil

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[McKown, John]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:05 AM
> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

<snip>

> And more on your perplexity about my suggestion of "background
> initiated foreground": I've seen some sentiment here that a
> class of users prefer linemode for general Unix operations, but
> OEDIT/OBROWSE in their specialty areas. Wouldn't it be at least
> convenient in a linemode z/OS Unix session to issue:
>
> DISPLAY=local.desktop export DISPLAY
> oedit some.file
>
> ... and have a new, genuine x3270 window running ISPF/PDF pop
> up on one's desktop? No need to enter user ID and password;
> current working directory and environment inherited from the
> Unix session; and if the user has issued a "su" command, OEDIT
> would run with the new user ID, not that of the original TSO
> session as is the present (mis-)behavior of OEDIT under OMVS.
>
> -- gil

Now that sounds interesting! And I even understand it. <grin> But it
would likely be difficult to implement because OEDIT is just an
interface to ISPF edit. So the z/OS UNIX version of "oedit" would need
to set up an ISPF environment. Which likely means a unique, non-shared,
ISPF profile dataset.

This is very interesting to think upon. Unfortunately, that is all that
I can do because my time is being taken up trying to come up with a plan
to split our current single z/OS image into two images (production vs.
non-production) while at the same time convincing everybody that the
only reasonable way to go is a parallel sysplex, which will cost real
money for the CF. Which everybody think can be done and finished in at
most a single quarter of next year.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:16:32 -0600, McKown, John wrote:
>>
>> DISPLAY=local.desktop export DISPLAY
>> oedit some.file
>>
>> ... and have a new, genuine x3270 window running ISPF/PDF pop
>> up on one's desktop? No need to enter user ID and password;
>
>Now that sounds interesting! And I even understand it. <grin> But it
>
Ah! It's refreshing that my thought processes sometimes mesh
with others' on this list.

>would likely be difficult to implement because OEDIT is just an
>interface to ISPF edit. So the z/OS UNIX version of "oedit" would need
>to set up an ISPF environment. Which likely means a unique, non-shared,

I do this routinely from a (non-interactive) Unix shell with Rexx:

address TSO 'ISPSTART cmd( %... )'

... where I do LMINIT, LMCOPY, LMMSTATS, LMFREE, ... (but not edit).
The obstacle is in connecting to a terminal, not in setting up an
ISPF environment.

>ISPF profile dataset.
>
In the non-interactive case, it suffices (and I prefer) simply to:

alloc dd(ISPPROF) new unit(VIO) space(1,1) tracks dir(5) delete

... (we don't need no ISPPROF).

It's ironic that ISPF which so successfully serializes edits to
PDS members can't do likewise with its own profile data set. I
suspect the obstacle is that for performance ISPF caches profile
updates and synchs them all at exit rather than updating dynamically.

But (I've described here before) we have developer/testers who like
to be logged on to one production system and several test systems
concurrently. Some years ago, our sysprog took the expedient step
of blocking CA/MIM's propagation of the ENQ on ISPPROF. I have
heard of no resulting difficulties; programmers understand that
the last session to exit wins; and corruption is possible only in
a tiny timing window if the programmer types EXIT on two terminals
and presses ENTER with one hand on each terminal simultaneously.
And doesn't z/OS itself nowadays serialize PDS directory updates
to prevent corruption? In the last resort, there are HSM backups.

I know; Shmuel has already said it's not his dog.

-- gil

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[Bruce Hewson]

Shane,

HMC works "OK" for NIP messages.

and

John,

In a Parallel Sysplex VTAM and TCPIP are always UP! So there is ALWAYS an
available SMCS console when you IPL.

Yes, I do agree that in a single image system that SMCS is not ideal, but
isn't parallel sysplex what we all should be aiming for to ensure the future
of z/OS?

At the least you could have 2 images active in plex on a single box.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:02:04 -0600, McKown, John
<***@HEALTHMARKETS.COM> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
>> [mailto:IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shane
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:55 AM
>> To: IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> Subject: SMCS ... was something else entirely.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 08:43 -0600, McKown, John wrote:
>>
>> > Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
>> > 3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console.
>>
>> Mmmmm - try and see a NIP failure on a SMCS console.
>> Has it's place, but doesn't replace the flight-deck IMHO.
>>
>> Shane ...
>
>True. I should have mentioned that SMCS consoles are only available
>after VTAM is up, and maybe TCPIP as well for TN3270 emulation. They are
>fine for Production control users to have a console, not for IPL uses.
>
>--
>John McKown
>Senior Systems Programmer
>HealthMarkets
>Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
>Administrative Services Group
>Information Technology

Regards
Bruce Hewson

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[R.S.]

Bruce Hewson wrote:
> Shane,
>
> HMC works "OK" for NIP messages.
>
> and
>
> John,
>
> In a Parallel Sysplex VTAM and TCPIP are always UP! So there is ALWAYS an
> available SMCS console when you IPL.

IMHO bad idea. BTDT many times. Any JES2 problem (i.e. question about
checkpoints) and you're blind: you don't see whole message, but ou have
to answer them. I don't like it.

> Yes, I do agree that in a single image system that SMCS is not ideal, but
> isn't parallel sysplex what we all should be aiming for to ensure the future
> of z/OS?
>
> At the least you could have 2 images active in plex on a single box.

I doubt anyone establish single box sysplex just to have consoles
available. Sysplex is good thing from availability point of view, but it
consumes more resources and costs you CPU cycles. Single system on
single box will be faster.
In this case (consoles) I would buy OSA card for OSA-ICC consoles or
second-hand 2074, or 3174, or Securagent box, or Visara SCON... I
believe each of them is cheaper than sysplex. <g>


My $0.02

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego,
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 0000025237
NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone.

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[Ted MacNEIL]

>Sysplex is good thing from availability point of view, but it consumes more resources and costs you CPU cycles.

The CPU cost for SYSPLEX is 1-3% of the physical processors involved.
I don't think that is expensive.

The real cost is the CF(s) and set up time.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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[R.S.]

Ted MacNEIL wrote:
>> Sysplex is good thing from availability point of view, but it consumes more resources and costs you CPU cycles.
>
> The CPU cost for SYSPLEX is 1-3% of the physical processors involved.
> I don't think that is expensive.
>
> The real cost is the CF(s) and set up time.

IMHO it's more. Some IBMer (sysplex specialist) told me about 5%. His
smile suggested the value is censored by marketing. My *very limited*
experience rather confirm 5+% than 1-3.
Of course, regardless of the above, we still have cost of HW resources
and set up, *and* management.
IMHO much too much to justify consoles only.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego,
nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237
NIP: 526-021-50-88
Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2007 r. kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA (w całości opłacony) wynosi 118.064.140 zł. W związku z realizacją warunkowego podwyższenia kapitału zakładowego, na podstawie uchwał XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA może ulec podwyższeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 zł. Akcje w podwyższonym kapitale zakładowym będą w całości opłacone.

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[Skip Robinson]

If shared console the only requirement, you can accomplish it with *basic*
sysplex: CTC connections only, no CF required. We run one sysplex that way.

.
.
JO.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
626-302-7535 Office
323-715-0595 Mobile
***@sce.com



"R.S."
<***@BREMU
LTIBANK.COM.PL> To
Sent by: IBM IBM-***@BAMA.UA.EDU
Mainframe cc
Discussion List
<IBM-***@BAMA.UA Subject
.EDU> Re: SMCS ... was something else
entirely.

12/02/2007 05:21
AM


Please respond to
IBM Mainframe
Discussion List
<IBM-***@BAMA.UA
.EDU>






Ted MacNEIL wrote:
>> Sysplex is good thing from availability point of view, but it consumes
more resources and costs you CPU cycles.
>
> The CPU cost for SYSPLEX is 1-3% of the physical processors involved.
> I don't think that is expensive.
>
> The real cost is the CF(s) and set up time.

IMHO it's more. Some IBMer (sysplex specialist) told me about 5%. His
smile suggested the value is censored by marketing. My *very limited*
experience rather confirm 5+% than 1-3.
Of course, regardless of the above, we still have cost of HW resources
and set up, *and* management.
IMHO much too much to justify consoles only.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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[R.S.]

Skip Robinson wrote:
> If shared console the only requirement, you can accomplish it with *basic*
> sysplex: CTC connections only, no CF required. We run one sysplex that way.

With GRS ring. No thanks. I still prefer real console. It can be old
good (and *cheap*) 3174. With another piece as a hot spare. If one can
afford, I would strongly recommend OSA-ICC.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego,
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 0000025237
NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone.

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[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:15:35 +0100, Lindy Mayfield wrote:

>I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
>based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11. We've recently
>installed z/OS 1.9.
>
>Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
>3.01296 out of PI.
>
>(If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
>moves from 0 - 100 percent.)
>
What's cooler is that it's innterruptible with ATTN. What's less
cool than it might be is that ATTN returns me to the primary ISPF
panel.

But trying to set up for the demonstration, I first picked a wildcard
HLQ far too big. When I tired of waiting for the list to display, I
pressed ATTN. Several times. Vertical bar each time. Finally, I
disconnected my terminal and logged in again.

TSO/ISPF's terminal interaction still sucks; anything inconveniently
long should be gently interruptible.

Likewise, a recurrent irritation is searching a large data set for
a string, and having the search pause every 100,000 lines to ask
me whether I want to continue. Better to show a progress bar and
allow interruption by ATTN. But that ATTN should not return me to
the primary panel.

And why, why, why is the argument for UP and DOWN still limited to
9,999 lines? What rationale is there for making it any less than
the size of the file? (Or at least the remaining distance in the
chosen scrolling direction.) (Halfword psychosis is not a rationale,
nor is a value motivated by the weight of a double armload of
punched cards.)

-- gil

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[Hunkeler Peter , KIUK 3]

Of what value are such progress bars other than proving useless
animation can also be provided in TSO sessions? Those development
resources would better be working on real enhancements.

--
Peter Hunkeler
CREDIT SUISSE

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[Don Leahy]

On Dec 4, 2007 3:03 AM, Hunkeler Peter (KIUK 3) <
***@credit-suisse.com> wrote:

> Of what value are such progress bars other than proving useless
> animation can also be provided in TSO sessions? Those development
> resources would better be working on real enhancements.
>
> --
> Peter Hunkeler
> CREDIT SUISSE
>
> I agree that progress bars are just a technical stunt.

The only time I ever put one to practical use was to demonstrate to my
sysprog how poor the TSO response time was on the Development system vs
Production. I had him run the progress bar function on both systems and
the difference was alarming enough to cause him to launch an investigation.

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[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 23:42:11 -0600, Bruce Hewson <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

>...
>In a Parallel Sysplex VTAM and TCPIP are always UP!

Uh huh. Sure.

>So there is ALWAYS an
>available SMCS console when you IPL.
>...

FSVO "always".

We've gone with ICC OSAs (plus a console-sharing server) because
"always" is just not good enough. Somebody has already mention JES
issues. Add to that IODF changes requiring PORs (taking down an
entire processor complex), dasd mirroring support changes requiring
all shared dasd to be down, etc.

There are always going to be situations - hopefully rare - where all
VTAM / TCP/IP access is down. Maybe you can live with that; maybe
you can't. But claiming that VTAM and TCP/IP are always available is
whistling in the dark.

Pat O'Keefe

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[Ted MacNEIL]

>Add to that IODF changes requiring PORs

There aren't many of those left, these days.
You can even add and delete LPARs without a POR, on the newer tech, IIRC.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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[R.S.]

Ted MacNEIL wrote:
>> Add to that IODF changes requiring PORs
>
> There aren't many of those left, these days.
> You can even add and delete LPARs without a POR, on the newer tech, IIRC.

AFAIK you cannot. From my understanding you can pre-define LPARs with
"reserved" name. I can be wrong, but the same functionality can be
obtained by defining some LPARs in advance.
However I agree, very few HW changes requires POR.
BTW: despite how rare my POR is, I *want* console during this process!

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego,
nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237
NIP: 526-021-50-88
Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2007 r. kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA (w całości opłacony) wynosi 118.064.140 zł. W związku z realizacją warunkowego podwyższenia kapitału zakładowego, na podstawie uchwał XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA może ulec podwyższeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 zł. Akcje w podwyższonym kapitale zakładowym będą w całości opłacone.

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[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:21:55 +0000, Ted MacNEIL <***@YAHOO.CA> wrote:

>>Add to that IODF changes requiring PORs
>
>There aren't many of those left, these days.
>...

We seem to have run into them, though. We've gone through a series
of datacenter moves and processor reconfigurations. We had a number
of PORs. Sometimes it was because of unanticipated shuffling of LPARs.
(We can't afford to have *those* 2 LPARS on the same processor
any more.) Sometimes it was because of some mismatches that
prevented dynamic changes. (I'm not directly involved so I didn't here
the details of that one.

Right now we've got another POR scheduled because a couple CTC
CU's were defined with just one device instead the intended number -
4 on one CU and 8 on another, I think. I have no idea why that
requires a POR, but apparently it does.

Pat O'Keefe

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[Ted MacNEIL]

>Right now we've got another POR scheduled because a couple CTC CU's were defined with just one device instead the intended number - 4 on one CU and 8 on another, I think. I have no idea why that
requires a POR, but apparently it does.

The only reason that should require a POR is because your IODF is not defined as dynamic, or the device (both unlikely) is not.

Of course, it could be because the people involved aren't, either.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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