Ford's Recipie for a RECALL

[Philip®]

http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm

"This (virual testing) is directly related to the number of recalls
on today's vehicles. It has also affected customer satisfaction with
new car ownership. This would not be hard to understand. If you do
not know that a new design might fail in 50000 miles, causing a
safety concern, until after you began to sell it, you must recall it.
The reason it was not found before the car went in to production,
lack of test time. If you do not test it for 50k, you do not know
that it will last that long. Sure you can speculate about it's
durability, but that's all it is. Speculation! And obviously, if you
paid the kind of money a new vehicle costs, you are unhappy when you
find that the manufacturer has issued recall after recall on it."

--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

[badraptor]

I have belonged to this web sight because i am a flat rate tech. And i can
tell you after going to detroit many times that your speculation is half
correct.it isnt that ford and other manufactures dont test there vehicles
correctly! How could they ever test there vehicles accurately in every
situation and every enviroment known to man. it is imposible.And how could
they duplicate every type of driver on the road? Look at is this way how
many other manufacturers come out voluntarily with recals --> FORD
how many are forced to recal there vehicles by the courts? CHEVY SIDE FUEL
TANKS after how many people died. CHEVY on cold start up 3 timed the
emissions alowed. DODGE well i wont even go there. I deal with fact not
speculation! And fact tells me this, as many parts and the engineering that
is involved is mind blowing yes mind blowing just to make one car!!!! ONE
CAR!! Know mass produce it and give it to every tom dick and harry that want
to drive it, Know consider the amount of recals that are out there, and gee
there really are not that many! AND SENCE WHEN IS A RECAL CONSIDERED A BAD
THING! I THINK IS THE FACT THAT THE MANUFACTURE JUST WANTS TO GET IT RIGHT
FOR YOU. Or is it just that you and others dont want to be iconvenienced?
THE BOTTOM LINE IS RECALS ARE FREE AND YOU CANT BLAME THE MANUFACTURERS FOR
NOT TESTING THEY TEST A NEW MODEL FOR 3 YEARS AT DETRIOT , they have no way
of testing everything! look at the douglass l-10ll they tested the hell out
of that jet,mc donald douglass did many many tests thousands of hours of
test in every situation imaginable.Did this help them forsee the engines
falling of because of a 286.00 dollar part called a engine mount! my point
is you cant use a cristal ball and wave a magic wand and make thing
perfect!!!!!!!!!!!

SINIOR FORD MASTER TECH 23 YEARS AND PROUD OF IT!!

Post by Philip®
http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm
"This (virual testing) is directly related to the number of recalls
on today's vehicles. It has also affected customer satisfaction with
new car ownership. This would not be hard to understand. If you do
not know that a new design might fail in 50000 miles, causing a
safety concern, until after you began to sell it, you must recall it.
The reason it was not found before the car went in to production,
lack of test time. If you do not test it for 50k, you do not know
that it will last that long. Sure you can speculate about it's
durability, but that's all it is. Speculation! And obviously, if you
paid the kind of money a new vehicle costs, you are unhappy when you
find that the manufacturer has issued recall after recall on it."
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

...

[Philip®]

My point in posting the link ( http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm )
is to illustrate that recalls are a manufacturer's way to not lose
profits due to lawsuits and lose customers. Recalls originate from
using the PUBLIC to test far too much of the vehicle. It is
unreasonable for a manufacturer to test for -all- conceivable
conditions that their vehicles will be subjected to by the public.
You and I agree on that point. But it does seem lately that there is
too much reliance on virtual testing. I have only to point to the
Ford Focus as the most recent and flagrant example of insufficient
real world testing with production quality parts. There are many
less egregious examples which you know better than I.
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Post by badraptor
I have belonged to this web sight because i am a flat rate tech.
And i can tell you after going to detroit many times that your
speculation is half correct.it isnt that ford and other
manufactures dont test there vehicles correctly! How could they
ever test there vehicles accurately in every situation and every
enviroment known to man. it is imposible.And how could they
duplicate every type of driver on the road? Look at is this way
how many other manufacturers come out voluntarily with recals -->
FORD how many are forced to recal there vehicles by the courts?
CHEVY SIDE FUEL TANKS after how many people died. CHEVY on cold
start up 3 timed the emissions alowed. DODGE well i wont even go
there. I deal with fact not speculation! And fact tells me this,
as many parts and the engineering that is involved is mind blowing
yes mind blowing just to make one car!!!! ONE CAR!! Know mass
produce it and give it to every tom dick and harry that want to
drive it, Know consider the amount of recals that are out there,
and gee there really are not that many! AND SENCE WHEN IS A RECAL
CONSIDERED A BAD THING! I THINK IS THE FACT THAT THE MANUFACTURE
JUST WANTS TO GET IT RIGHT FOR YOU. Or is it just that you and
others dont want to be iconvenienced? THE BOTTOM LINE IS RECALS
ARE FREE AND YOU CANT BLAME THE MANUFACTURERS FOR NOT TESTING THEY
TEST A NEW MODEL FOR 3 YEARS AT DETRIOT , they have no way of
testing everything! look at the douglass l-10ll they tested the
hell out of that jet,mc donald douglass did many many tests
thousands of hours of test in every situation imaginable.Did this
help them forsee the engines falling of because of a 286.00 dollar
part called a engine mount! my point is you cant use a cristal
ball and wave a magic wand and make thing perfect!!!!!!!!!!!
SINIOR FORD MASTER TECH 23 YEARS AND PROUD OF IT!!

Post by Philip®
http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm
"This (virual testing) is directly related to the number of
recalls on today's vehicles. It has also affected customer
satisfaction with new car ownership. This would not be hard to
understand. If you do not know that a new design might fail in
50000 miles, causing a safety concern, until after you began to
sell it, you must recall it. The reason it was not found before
the car went in to production, lack of test time. If you do not
test it for 50k, you do not know that it will last that long.
Sure you can speculate about it's durability, but that's all it
is. Speculation! And obviously, if you paid the kind of money a
new vehicle costs, you are unhappy when you find that the
manufacturer has issued recall after recall on it."
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark
Twain"

...

[badraptor]

I wasnt saying you were wrong but you know what ford problem is? I
recently went on a cruise that ford gave its senior master technicians after
they achieved over 5000 hours of training and one of the head guys from ford
motor company made a speech and siad that they were changing the way they do
business! He gave a example of the new 6.0 l diesel and its problems the
problem is ford relies to much on venders and the venders quality.This is
sad but the problem with the 6.0l motor was the venders O-rings for the fuel
injecters were way substandard and it ruined the motors reputaion from the
start! It is now fixed but wow what a headache for us! He siad from now on
they will spend the extra money to get good quality venders and make sure
the venders keep that quality ! this is good to hear from one of the top
guys! i think the products that you see from 2003 forward will be great!!

Post by Philip®
My point in posting the link ( http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm )
is to illustrate that recalls are a manufacturer's way to not lose
profits due to lawsuits and lose customers. Recalls originate from
using the PUBLIC to test far too much of the vehicle. It is
unreasonable for a manufacturer to test for -all- conceivable
conditions that their vehicles will be subjected to by the public.
You and I agree on that point. But it does seem lately that there is
too much reliance on virtual testing. I have only to point to the
Ford Focus as the most recent and flagrant example of insufficient
real world testing with production quality parts. There are many
less egregious examples which you know better than I.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Post by badraptor
I have belonged to this web sight because i am a flat rate tech.
And i can tell you after going to detroit many times that your
speculation is half correct.it isnt that ford and other
manufactures dont test there vehicles correctly! How could they
ever test there vehicles accurately in every situation and every
enviroment known to man. it is imposible.And how could they
duplicate every type of driver on the road? Look at is this way
how many other manufacturers come out voluntarily with recals -->
FORD how many are forced to recal there vehicles by the courts?
CHEVY SIDE FUEL TANKS after how many people died. CHEVY on cold
start up 3 timed the emissions alowed. DODGE well i wont even go
there. I deal with fact not speculation! And fact tells me this,
as many parts and the engineering that is involved is mind blowing
yes mind blowing just to make one car!!!! ONE CAR!! Know mass
produce it and give it to every tom dick and harry that want to
drive it, Know consider the amount of recals that are out there,
and gee there really are not that many! AND SENCE WHEN IS A RECAL
CONSIDERED A BAD THING! I THINK IS THE FACT THAT THE MANUFACTURE
JUST WANTS TO GET IT RIGHT FOR YOU. Or is it just that you and
others dont want to be iconvenienced? THE BOTTOM LINE IS RECALS
ARE FREE AND YOU CANT BLAME THE MANUFACTURERS FOR NOT TESTING THEY
TEST A NEW MODEL FOR 3 YEARS AT DETRIOT , they have no way of
testing everything! look at the douglass l-10ll they tested the
hell out of that jet,mc donald douglass did many many tests
thousands of hours of test in every situation imaginable.Did this
help them forsee the engines falling of because of a 286.00 dollar
part called a engine mount! my point is you cant use a cristal
ball and wave a magic wand and make thing perfect!!!!!!!!!!!
SINIOR FORD MASTER TECH 23 YEARS AND PROUD OF IT!!

Post by Philip®
http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm
"This (virual testing) is directly related to the number of
recalls on today's vehicles. It has also affected customer
satisfaction with new car ownership. This would not be hard to
understand. If you do not know that a new design might fail in
50000 miles, causing a safety concern, until after you began to
sell it, you must recall it. The reason it was not found before
the car went in to production, lack of test time. If you do not
test it for 50k, you do not know that it will last that long.
Sure you can speculate about it's durability, but that's all it
is. Speculation! And obviously, if you paid the kind of money a
new vehicle costs, you are unhappy when you find that the
manufacturer has issued recall after recall on it."
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

...

[Joseph Oberlander]

Post by badraptor
I wasnt saying you were wrong but you know what ford problem is? I
recently went on a cruise that ford gave its senior master technicians after
they achieved over 5000 hours of training and one of the head guys from ford
motor company made a speech and siad that they were changing the way they do
business! He gave a example of the new 6.0 l diesel and its problems the
problem is ford relies to much on venders and the venders quality.This is
sad but the problem with the 6.0l motor was the venders O-rings for the fuel
injecters were way substandard and it ruined the motors reputaion from the
start! It is now fixed but wow what a headache for us! He siad from now on
they will spend the extra money to get good quality venders and make sure
the venders keep that quality ! this is good to hear from one of the top

...

As if they can stop their suppliers from outsourcing cheaper sub-assemblies
and materials. What else can they possibly do when they MUST drop 5% of their
cost every year but cut quality?

[TeGGeR]

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by badraptor
will spend the extra money to get good quality venders and make sure
the venders keep that quality ! this is good to hear from one of the top

As if they can stop their suppliers from outsourcing cheaper
sub-assemblies and materials. What else can they possibly do when
they MUST drop 5% of their cost every year but cut quality?

Some of that quality loss is just plain bad design. Suppliers must work
within Ford specs and requirements. You are given the CAD files, test jigs
and any other information that is needed to develop tooling for the piece.
Sometimes they leave it up to you to actually design the part, but normally
the design comes from Ford. And therein lies the problem.

[badraptor]

Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

Post by TeGGeR

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by badraptor
will spend the extra money to get good quality venders and make sure
the venders keep that quality ! this is good to hear from one of the top

As if they can stop their suppliers from outsourcing cheaper
sub-assemblies and materials. What else can they possibly do when
they MUST drop 5% of their cost every year but cut quality?

Some of that quality loss is just plain bad design. Suppliers must work
within Ford specs and requirements. You are given the CAD files, test jigs
and any other information that is needed to develop tooling for the piece.
Sometimes they leave it up to you to actually design the part, but normally
the design comes from Ford. And therein lies the problem.
--
TeGGeR®

...

[Scott in Fla]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????


Scott in Florida

[Philip®]

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is
vender issues at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues
involving frame ,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these
things day in and day out? i do and dont see any design flaws at
all !!! I fix vender stuff like DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING
ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok guys lets
deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????
Scott in Florida

...

"Dude".... "I do (work on these things) and I don't see any design
flaws at all!!!"

Ok... then WHY are you working on them? Hmmmm?
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

[C. E. White]

Post by Philip®
"Dude".... "I do (work on these things) and I don't see any design
flaws at all!!!"
Ok... then WHY are you working on them? Hmmmm?

Probably for the same reason Toyota mechanics had to replaces all those
perfect engines that were sludged up.

Ed

[Philip®]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Philip®
"Dude".... "I do (work on these things) and I don't see any
design flaws at all!!!"
Ok... then WHY are you working on them? Hmmmm?

Probably for the same reason Toyota mechanics had to replaces all
those perfect engines that were sludged up.
Ed

AGREED! Customer abuse or neglect! :-)
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[Scott in Fla]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 05:01:09 GMT, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White

Post by Philip®
"Dude".... "I do (work on these things) and I don't see any design
flaws at all!!!"
Ok... then WHY are you working on them? Hmmmm?

Probably for the same reason Toyota mechanics had to replaces all those
perfect engines that were sludged up.

Cause some soccer mom didn't change her oil????


Scott in Florida

[badraptor]

wow you guys are in the real world i thought i was alone!

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 05:01:09 GMT, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White

Post by Philip®
"Dude".... "I do (work on these things) and I don't see any design
flaws at all!!!"
Ok... then WHY are you working on them? Hmmmm?

Probably for the same reason Toyota mechanics had to replaces all those
perfect engines that were sludged up.

Cause some soccer mom didn't change her oil????
Scott in Florida

[Joseph Oberlander]

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

...

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.

ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why bother - the
customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new visually, so you lie
and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd world companies - corruption is
the norm, not the exception). The vender in the U.S. looks the other way
as you get it to them for a reasonable cost.

(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

[Dan---]

Ford is going broke aint they.

Now "Junk Bonds" Nuff said!
:-p

--
Regards
Dan.

[badraptor]

finally someone with a brain

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why bother - the
customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new visually, so you lie
and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd world companies - corruption is
the norm, not the exception). The vender in the U.S. looks the other way
as you get it to them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

...

[Scott in Fla]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why bother - the
customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new visually, so you lie
and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd world companies - corruption is
the norm, not the exception). The vender in the U.S. looks the other way
as you get it to them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

...

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to ensure
that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!

If you don't it is YOUR fault!

Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.

Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer that
out sources his parts) IMHO

Scott in Florida

[Joseph Oberlander]

Post by Scott in Fla
When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to ensure
that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!

But they are not able to tell unless the stress-test or wear-test the
parts. Since they have budget and corporate set deadlines, this
isn;t a high priority.

Post by Scott in Fla
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer that
out sources his parts) IMHO

If they are *requiring* their suppliers to cut costs 5% a year, eventually
they will all start to lie to Ford.(which I guess IS Ford's fault for being
such a cheapass.

Garbage in, garbage out. Funny how such a simple truism escapes auto makers.

[badraptor]

this is the problem joe

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to ensure
that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!

But they are not able to tell unless the stress-test or wear-test the
parts. Since they have budget and corporate set deadlines, this
isn;t a high priority.

Post by Scott in Fla
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer that
out sources his parts) IMHO

If they are *requiring* their suppliers to cut costs 5% a year, eventually
they will all start to lie to Ford.(which I guess IS Ford's fault for being
such a cheapass.
Garbage in, garbage out. Funny how such a simple truism escapes auto makers.

...

[Philip®]

Post by badraptor

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to
ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!

But they are not able to tell unless the stress-test or
wear-test the parts. Since they have budget and corporate set
deadlines, this
isn;t a high priority.

Post by Scott in Fla
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any
manufacturer that out sources his parts) IMHO

If they are *requiring* their suppliers to cut costs 5% a year,
eventually they will all start to lie to Ford.(which I guess IS
Ford's fault for being such a cheapass.
Garbage in, garbage out. Funny how such a simple truism escapes auto makers.

this is the problem joe

...

"Badraptor" It would be really swell of you to post at the bottom
of the thread WHEN such a pattern of "bottom posting" is in evidence.
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[badraptor]

WHAAAAAAAAA!

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to
ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!

But they are not able to tell unless the stress-test or
wear-test the parts. Since they have budget and corporate set
deadlines, this
isn;t a high priority.

Post by Scott in Fla
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any
manufacturer that out sources his parts) IMHO

If they are *requiring* their suppliers to cut costs 5% a year,
eventually they will all start to lie to Ford.(which I guess IS
Ford's fault for being such a cheapass.
Garbage in, garbage out. Funny how such a simple truism escapes auto makers.

this is the problem joe

"Badraptor" It would be really swell of you to post at the bottom
of the thread WHEN such a pattern of "bottom posting" is in evidence.
--
* Philip
"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

...

[TeGGeR]

Post by badraptor
WHAAAAAAAAA!

<sniff sniff>

Yep. Pooped his diaper again.

[Scott in Fla]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:12:21 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to ensure
that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!

But they are not able to tell unless the stress-test or wear-test the
parts. Since they have budget and corporate set deadlines, this
isn;t a high priority.

Post by Scott in Fla
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer that
out sources his parts) IMHO

If they are *requiring* their suppliers to cut costs 5% a year, eventually
they will all start to lie to Ford.(which I guess IS Ford's fault for being
such a cheapass.
Garbage in, garbage out. Funny how such a simple truism escapes auto makers.

...

Agreed.


Scott in Florida

[badraptor]

scott i must agree with you ! in the end it is fords responsiblity to make
sure they are on ther toes! i was only telling the other guy that his
assumsion that ford has major design flaws was wrong!

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why bother - the
customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new visually, so you lie
and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd world companies - corruption is
the norm, not the exception). The vender in the U.S. looks the other way
as you get it to them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to ensure
that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer that
out sources his parts) IMHO
Scott in Florida

...

[Philip®]

Post by badraptor

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing
is vender issues at least in my area.I havent seen any
major issues involving frame ,suspension, motor, trans
exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out? i do and
dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff
like DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER
SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok guys lets deal with
fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff
to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they
outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why
bother - the customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new
visually, so you lie and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd
world companies - corruption is the norm, not the exception).
The vender in the U.S. looks the other way as you get it to
them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to
ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer
that out sources his parts) IMHO
Scott in Florida

scott i must agree with you ! in the end it is fords responsiblity
to make sure they are on ther toes! i was only telling the other
guy that his assumsion that ford has major design flaws was wrong!

...

But the fact is you .... are wrong. Ford is the POSTERBOY for
"design" and "quality" issues. AutoNews has in not so many words
said so. ;-)
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[badraptor]

OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES EVERYONE HAS ONE! SOME ARE JUST BIGGER LIKE
YOURS!

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing
is vender issues at least in my area.I havent seen any
major issues involving frame ,suspension, motor, trans
exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out? i do and
dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff
like DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER
SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok guys lets deal with
fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why
bother - the customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new
visually, so you lie and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd
world companies - corruption is the norm, not the exception).
The vender in the U.S. looks the other way as you get it to
them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to
ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer
that out sources his parts) IMHO
Scott in Florida

scott i must agree with you ! in the end it is fords responsiblity
to make sure they are on ther toes! i was only telling the other
guy that his assumsion that ford has major design flaws was wrong!

But the fact is you .... are wrong. Ford is the POSTERBOY for
"design" and "quality" issues. AutoNews has in not so many words
said so. ;-)
--
* Philip
"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

...

[Philip®]

Post by badraptor

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im
fixing is vender issues at least in my area.I havent
seen any major issues involving frame ,suspension,
motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and
day out? i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!!
I fix vender stuff like DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING
ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok
guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal
thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why
bother - the customer can't tell recycled steel from brand
new visually, so you lie and pocket the profits(problem
with 3rd world companies - corruption is the norm, not the
exception). The vender in the U.S. looks the other way as
you get it to them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going
around)

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility
to ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any
manufacturer that out sources his parts) IMHO
Scott in Florida

scott i must agree with you ! in the end it is fords
responsiblity to make sure they are on ther toes! i was only
telling the other guy that his assumsion that ford has major
design flaws was wrong!

But the fact is you .... are wrong. Ford is the POSTERBOY for
"design" and "quality" issues. AutoNews has in not so many words
said so. ;-)
--
* Philip

OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES EVERYONE HAS ONE! SOME ARE JUST BIGGER
LIKE YOURS!

...

Your point is? If you didn't like the opinion of Autonews, my views
of Ford quality over the years will leave you seething.
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[TeGGeR]

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor
OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES EVERYONE HAS ONE! SOME ARE JUST BIGGER
LIKE YOURS!

Your point is? If you didn't like the opinion of Autonews, my views
of Ford quality over the years will leave you seething.

My Teen-o-meter is going off the scale here, Philip... I think this guy
isn't what he claims to be.

[Philip®]

Post by TeGGeR

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor
OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASSHOLES EVERYONE HAS ONE! SOME ARE JUST
BIGGER LIKE YOURS!

Your point is? If you didn't like the opinion of Autonews, my
views of Ford quality over the years will leave you seething.

My Teen-o-meter is going off the scale here, Philip... I think
this guy isn't what he claims to be.

I had that "reading" several days ago. ;-)
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[Mercury]

Thats funny.. name me a full sized truck that is perfect and ill gladly buy
it

ken

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing
is vender issues at least in my area.I havent seen any
major issues involving frame ,suspension, motor, trans
exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out? i do and
dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff
like DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER
SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok guys lets deal with
fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why
bother - the customer can't tell recycled steel from brand new
visually, so you lie and pocket the profits(problem with 3rd
world companies - corruption is the norm, not the exception).
The vender in the U.S. looks the other way as you get it to
them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going around)

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility to
ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any manufacturer
that out sources his parts) IMHO
Scott in Florida

scott i must agree with you ! in the end it is fords responsiblity
to make sure they are on ther toes! i was only telling the other
guy that his assumsion that ford has major design flaws was wrong!

But the fact is you .... are wrong. Ford is the POSTERBOY for
"design" and "quality" issues. AutoNews has in not so many words
said so. ;-)
--
* Philip
"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

...

[Philip®]

Post by Mercury

Post by Philip®

Post by badraptor

Post by Scott in Fla
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:02:08 GMT, Joseph Oberlander

Post by Joseph Oberlander

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im
fixing is vender issues at least in my area.I havent
seen any major issues involving frame ,suspension,
motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and
day out? i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!!
I fix vender stuff like DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING
ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok
guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal
thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Ford's specs are fine 99.999% of the time. It's when they outsource
the machining to China or Indonesia or Mexico that things get wierd.
ie - do they use 440 steel if it calls for it? No - why
bother - the customer can't tell recycled steel from brand
new visually, so you lie and pocket the profits(problem
with 3rd world companies - corruption is the norm, not the
exception). The vender in the U.S. looks the other way as
you get it to them for a reasonable cost.
(see discussion about Chinese rotors that's been going
around)

When you out source your products it is YOUR responsibility
to ensure that your suppliers are doing the job correctly!
If you don't it is YOUR fault!
Do it yourself or make damned sure it is done right.
Ford is at fault if anything goes wrong! (as is any
manufacturer that out sources his parts) IMHO
Scott in Florida

scott i must agree with you ! in the end it is fords
responsiblity to make sure they are on ther toes! i was only
telling the other guy that his assumsion that ford has major
design flaws was wrong!

But the fact is you .... are wrong. Ford is the POSTERBOY for
"design" and "quality" issues. AutoNews has in not so many words
said so. ;-)
--
* Philip

Thats funny.. name me a full sized truck that is perfect and ill
gladly buy it
ken

...

That's fair!
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[Joseph Oberlander]

Post by Mercury
Thats funny.. name me a full sized truck that is perfect and ill gladly buy
it

IIRC, the Pinzgauer comes close, as does the Unimog.

Oh - you meant the crud consumers have to choose from - yeah - no such beast.

[C. E. White]

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

...

Have you ever tried to write specifications for purchased goods? It
isn't easy.

Ed

[Philip®]

Post by C. E. White

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is
vender issues at least in my area.I havent seen any major
issues involving frame ,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you
fix these things day in and day out? i do and dont see any
design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS
,CD PLAYERS EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation
or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Have you ever tried to write specifications for purchased goods? It
isn't easy.
Ed

...

Have you ever supplied plans for a product along with the materials
and performance?
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[TeGGeR]

Post by Philip®

Post by C. E. White

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"
...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Have you ever tried to write specifications for purchased goods? It
isn't easy.
Ed

Have you ever supplied plans for a product along with the materials
and performance?

These are all developed by the automaker as a normal part of their
development and testing of the car and its constituent parts. You can
suggest changes if you think you can make the design better or cheaper,
(especially cheaper), but then the change has to make its way through the
labyrinthine, tortuous and lengthy approval process. Usually you just let
dumb designs slide.

Those automaker specs are what you follow when developing tooling and
processes, and when sourcing materials. The automakers also supply you with
fitting jigs and bucks so you can try your parts to make certain that they
meet fit requirements. All those jigs say "Property of <the automaker>" on
them and are on loan so long as you remain OEM for that part.

The CAD drawings and all the specifications are the same ones they'd need
to use if they were producing the part in-house. There is ultimately no
difference in spec requirements whether they produce the part themselves or
with an outside supplier.

[Philip®]

Post by TeGGeR

Post by Philip®

Post by C. E. White

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"
...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff
to?????

Have you ever tried to write specifications for purchased
goods? It isn't easy.
Ed

Have you ever supplied plans for a product along with the
materials and performance?

These are all developed by the automaker as a normal part of their
development and testing of the car and its constituent parts. You
can suggest changes if you think you can make the design better or
cheaper, (especially cheaper), but then the change has to make its
way through the labyrinthine, tortuous and lengthy approval
process. Usually you just let dumb designs slide.
Those automaker specs are what you follow when developing tooling
and processes, and when sourcing materials. The automakers also
supply you with fitting jigs and bucks so you can try your parts
to make certain that they meet fit requirements. All those jigs
say "Property of <the automaker>" on them and are on loan so long
as you remain OEM for that part.
The CAD drawings and all the specifications are the same ones
they'd need to use if they were producing the part in-house. There
is ultimately no difference in spec requirements whether they
produce the part themselves or with an outside supplier.

...

But the POLITICAL capital earned by having the part outsourced is
immeasurable if or when it comes time to BLAME someone. ;-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

[Robin S.]

Post by Philip®
But the POLITICAL capital earned by having the part outsourced is
immeasurable if or when it comes time to BLAME someone. ;-)
--

That's no joke. If tier one suppliers produce and ship parts that are out of
tolerance, they are charged for any of the repercussions. It costs roughly
$10,000/minute to shut down a vehicle assembly plant.

Regards,

Robin

[Philip®]

Post by Robin S.

Post by Philip®
But the POLITICAL capital earned by having the part outsourced is
immeasurable if or when it comes time to BLAME someone. ;-)
--

That's no joke. If tier one suppliers produce and ship parts that
are out of tolerance, they are charged for any of the
repercussions. It costs roughly $10,000/minute to shut down a
vehicle assembly plant.
Regards,
Robin

Agreed but.... I was thinking more benevolently. Let's say the
builder/supplier produces parts precisely as demanded by Ford and
meets performance spec within tolerance. But the part's performance
when installed falls short. Ford still blames the builder for Ford's
own design and performance shortfall. What a risk.
--

* Philip

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
Just like the ones I used to know"
-Bing Crosby

[Dan Gates]

Post by TeGGeR

Post by Philip®

Post by C. E. White

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"
...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Have you ever tried to write specifications for purchased goods? It
isn't easy.
Ed

Have you ever supplied plans for a product along with the materials
and performance?

These are all developed by the automaker as a normal part of their
development and testing of the car and its constituent parts. You can
suggest changes if you think you can make the design better or cheaper,
(especially cheaper), but then the change has to make its way through the
labyrinthine, tortuous and lengthy approval process. Usually you just let
dumb designs slide.
Those automaker specs are what you follow when developing tooling and
processes, and when sourcing materials. The automakers also supply you with
fitting jigs and bucks so you can try your parts to make certain that they
meet fit requirements. All those jigs say "Property of <the automaker>" on
them and are on loan so long as you remain OEM for that part.
The CAD drawings and all the specifications are the same ones they'd need
to use if they were producing the part in-house. There is ultimately no
difference in spec requirements whether they produce the part themselves or
with an outside supplier.

...

I recall seeing a documentary on Magna (specifically about his little
girly who now runs the bigger part of the Company) and in it they said
that the automaker (Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM) would tell them "I need
an instrument cluster for a two-seat sports car, with the following
information shown" and Magna would come up with the design, coordinated
with the automaker's designers, make sure everything fit together etc.
This is known as a "Performance Specification", ie, we don't care how
you get there, we just need the part to perform as specified.

I think this is the "New World Order". Suppliers are given much more
responsibility for design and performance. After all, they know best
what their equipment and people can produce.

Dan

[Robin S.]

Post by Dan Gates
I recall seeing a documentary on Magna (specifically about his little
girly who now runs the bigger part of the Company) and in it they said
that the automaker (Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM) would tell them "I need
an instrument cluster for a two-seat sports car, with the following
information shown" and Magna would come up with the design, coordinated
with the automaker's designers, make sure everything fit together etc.
This is known as a "Performance Specification", ie, we don't care how
you get there, we just need the part to perform as specified.

...

Magna's global structure is divided into groups that deal with specific
automotive systems. Chassis and body, interior, exterior, mirror and window,
and engines, transmissions and fueling systems. Magna also provides for
total vehicle assembly (Mercedes E class 4MATIC for one).

They supply everything from engineering, design, tooling, stamping, welding,
and assembly.

Post by Dan Gates
I think this is the "New World Order". Suppliers are given much more
responsibility for design and performance. After all, they know best
what their equipment and people can produce.

I think it has to do with the reduction of bureaucracy while making the OEM
more flexible through volume. Why start up a facility to assemble a couple
hundred thousand frames when you can get a tier one to mix it in with their
millions? It hurts the tier one when you drop a line, but it could be
devastating to an OEM.

Regards,

Robin

[TeGGeR]

Post by Robin S.

Post by Dan Gates
I recall seeing a documentary on Magna (specifically about his little
girly who now runs the bigger part of the Company) and in it they
said that the automaker (Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, GM) would tell them
"I need an instrument cluster for a two-seat sports car, with the
following information shown" and Magna would come up with the design,
coordinated with the automaker's designers, make sure everything fit
together etc. This is known as a "Performance Specification", ie, we
don't care how you get there, we just need the part to perform as
specified.

Magna's global structure is divided into groups that deal with
specific automotive systems.
Chassis and body,

...

Tesma and Decoma

Post by Robin S.
interior, exterior,

Decoma and Intier

Post by Robin S.
mirror and window,

Cosma

Post by Robin S.
and engines, transmissions and fueling systems.

Tesma again

They keep changing things around so it's hard to keep track of. There are
so many plants in each division too. There's also Atoma (which seems to
have disappeared).

Post by Robin S.
Magna also provides for total vehicle assembly (Mercedes E class
4MATIC for one).
They supply everything from engineering, design, tooling, stamping,
welding, and assembly.

Yes. They were also given the complete job of designing and producing the
bed for Ford's Lincoln Blackwood, where I was involved on the Decoma side.
What a disaster that one was.

I read that Ford will be unlikely to trust Magna with the complete assembly
of parts for some time (until the wounds heal, I think).

A little tidbit: The Blackwood's bed cover was powered UP, but not DOWN.
This was done because they discovered in tests that people were running the
battery down demonstrating the cover to friends, etc. By making the action
part manual, they hoped to discourage too much showing off.

Post by Robin S.

Post by Dan Gates
I think this is the "New World Order". Suppliers are given much more
responsibility for design and performance. After all, they know best
what their equipment and people can produce.

I think it has to do with the reduction of bureaucracy while making
the OEM more flexible through volume. Why start up a facility to
assemble a couple hundred thousand frames when you can get a tier one
to mix it in with their millions? It hurts the tier one when you drop
a line, but it could be devastating to an OEM.

...

Most importantly, outside supppliers tend to be NON-UNION. It is nearly
impossible to remain competitive in today's world while paying protection
to unions.

[Robin S.]

Post by TeGGeR

Post by Robin S.
Chassis and body,

Tesma and Decoma

Tesma doesn't seem to deal with any chassis or body work at all (according
to their website). Only engine, transmission and fuel... Also, Cosma is the
chassis and body group. Decoma does exterior while Magna Donnelly does the
windows and mirrors.

Post by TeGGeR
Yes. They were also given the complete job of designing and producing the
bed for Ford's Lincoln Blackwood, where I was involved on the Decoma side.

Do you still work with Decoma?

Post by TeGGeR
What a disaster that one was.
I read that Ford will be unlikely to trust Magna with the complete assembly
of parts for some time (until the wounds heal, I think).

That's kind of unfortunate.

The Magna SUV built (IIRC) in 1986 is located in my plant's reception area.
Apparently every so oftem they fill it up with the required fluids and drive
it around... Snazy vehicle.

Post by TeGGeR
Most importantly, outside supppliers tend to be NON-UNION. It is nearly
impossible to remain competitive in today's world while paying protection
to unions.

Shh! Don't say that word too loud!
<looks around skittishly>

Regards,

Robin

[Scott in Fla]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:59:11 GMT, "C. E. White"

Post by C. E. White

Post by Scott in Fla
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:47:24 -0500, "badraptor"

Post by badraptor
Dude wtf are you talking about? the only problem im fixing is vender issues
at least in my area.I havent seen any major issues involving frame
,suspension, motor, trans exc. D o you fix these things day in and day out?
i do and dont see any design flaws at all !!! I fix vender stuff like
DPFE,SPRINGS,GASKET AND O RING ISSUES, VENDER SUPPLIED RADIOS ,CD PLAYERS
EXC. ok guys lets deal with fact not speculation or personal thoughts.

...and just who's specifications do vendors build stuff to?????

Have you ever tried to write specifications for purchased goods? It
isn't easy.

...

Yes I have and it ended up easier to do the job in house!

Scott in Florida

[Philip®]

Did ANY of you respectable old timers notice Ford is continuing to
blame everyone else for the outcome of their vendor hostile economic
policies? O-rings are only a symtom of Ford's "build it cheap"
mindset.
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Post by badraptor
I wasnt saying you were wrong but you know what ford problem
is? I recently went on a cruise that ford gave its senior master
technicians after they achieved over 5000 hours of training and
one of the head guys from ford motor company made a speech and
siad that they were changing the way they do business! He gave a
example of the new 6.0 l diesel and its problems the problem is
ford relies to much on venders and the venders quality.This is sad
but the problem with the 6.0l motor was the venders O-rings for
the fuel injecters were way substandard and it ruined the motors
reputaion from the start! It is now fixed but wow what a headache
for us! He siad from now on they will spend the extra money to get
good quality venders and make sure the venders keep that quality !
this is good to hear from one of the top guys! i think the
products that you see from 2003 forward will be great!!

"Philip®"
My point in posting the link (
http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm ) is to illustrate that
recalls are a manufacturer's way to not lose profits due to
lawsuits and lose customers. Recalls originate from using the
PUBLIC to test far too much of the vehicle. It is unreasonable
for a manufacturer to test for -all- conceivable conditions that
their vehicles will be subjected to by the public. You and I
agree on that point. But it does seem lately that there is too
much reliance on virtual testing. I have only to point to the
Ford Focus as the most recent and flagrant example of
insufficient real world testing with production quality parts.
There are many less egregious examples which you know better
than I. --
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark
Twain"

posted: I have belonged to this web sight because i am a flat
rate tech. And i can tell you after going to detroit many
times that your speculation is half correct.it isnt that ford
and other manufactures dont test there vehicles correctly! How
could they ever test there vehicles accurately in every
situation and every enviroment known to man. it is
imposible.And how could they duplicate every type of driver on
the road? Look at is this way how many other manufacturers
come out voluntarily with recals --> FORD how many are forced
to recal there vehicles by the courts? CHEVY SIDE FUEL TANKS
after how many people died. CHEVY on cold start up 3 timed the
emissions alowed. DODGE well i wont even go there. I deal with
fact not speculation! And fact tells me this, as many parts
and the engineering that is involved is mind blowing yes mind
blowing just to make one car!!!! ONE CAR!! Know mass produce
it and give it to every tom dick and harry that want to drive
it, Know consider the amount of recals that are out there, and
gee there really are not that many! AND SENCE WHEN IS A RECAL
CONSIDERED A BAD THING! I THINK IS THE FACT THAT THE
MANUFACTURE JUST WANTS TO GET IT RIGHT FOR YOU. Or is it just
that you and others dont want to be iconvenienced? THE BOTTOM
LINE IS RECALS ARE FREE AND YOU CANT BLAME THE MANUFACTURERS
FOR NOT TESTING THEY TEST A NEW MODEL FOR 3 YEARS AT DETRIOT ,
they have no way of testing everything! look at the douglass
l-10ll they tested the hell out of that jet,mc donald douglass
did many many tests thousands of hours of test in every
situation imaginable.Did this help them forsee the engines
falling of because of a 286.00 dollar part called a engine
mount! my point is you cant use a cristal ball and wave a
magic wand and make thing perfect!!!!!!!!!!!
SINIOR FORD MASTER TECH 23 YEARS AND PROUD OF IT!!

Post by Philip®
http://www.flatratetech.com/pub9.htm
"This (virual testing) is directly related to the number of
recalls on today's vehicles. It has also affected customer
satisfaction with new car ownership. This would not be hard
to understand. If you do not know that a new design might
fail in 50000 miles, causing a safety concern, until after
you began to sell it, you must recall it. The reason it was
not found before the car went in to production, lack of test
time. If you do not test it for 50k, you do not know that it
will last that long. Sure you can speculate about it's
durability, but that's all it is. Speculation! And
obviously, if you paid the kind of money a new vehicle
costs, you are unhappy when you find that the manufacturer
has issued recall after recall on it."
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

...

[John Doe]

To me imperfections are acceptable for a vehicle that costs thousands
less than the others. I had already been to the dealer's website and
had mulled over their used car inventory. I had also researched each
on the internet forums and NGs. Every car I researched had endless
complaimts from owners. Yes even Honda and Toyota.
When I actually test drove them and got a feel for the cars, I
instinctivly went for the Focus. The whole deal just felt better.
Buying a car is always a financial loss as soon as you cut the deal.
It is also a crap shoot as to build quality. Who was on the assembly
line that day and were they having a bad day or not. I think that the
supposed high-quality car makers simply have better quality conrol at
the end of the line and let less cars get out to the public with
problems, but not all are caught in time.
John

[Robin S.]

Post by John Doe
To me imperfections are acceptable for a vehicle that costs thousands
less than the others.

What about flaws that COST thousands of dollars (down the road) and possibly
strand you in the middle of no-where?

Post by John Doe
I had already been to the dealer's website and
had mulled over their used car inventory. I had also researched each
on the internet forums and NGs. Every car I researched had endless
complaimts from owners. Yes even Honda and Toyota.
When I actually test drove them and got a feel for the cars, I
instinctivly went for the Focus. The whole deal just felt better.
Buying a car is always a financial loss as soon as you cut the deal.
It is also a crap shoot as to build quality.

Sounds like a Ford buyer...

Post by John Doe
Who was on the assembly
line that day and were they having a bad day or not. I think that the
supposed high-quality car makers simply have better quality conrol at
the end of the line and let less cars get out to the public with
problems, but not all are caught in time.

I suppose you can support this claim by years of experience in the
automotive manufacturing and assembly industries?

Accuracy and repeatability within workpieces costs money. Plain and simple.
Automotive suppliers spend billions on these ideas (and others) so that your
car runs they way it should for a long time... Are you willing to pay?

Regards,

Robin