Discussion:
I think I've discovered the real problem with modern F1, but you might think it's trivial
(too old to reply)
Yousuf Khan
2020-05-08 23:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Here's the TLDR: the real problem with modern F1 is ... *pitstops*!

Long version:
Okay, with the COVID situation around the world, I've been forced to
rewatch old seasons of F1, which I normally would not have any interest
in watching again, I'm usually too engrossed in the current seasons. But
I didn't go back just a few years ago, I went really old school, from
1981 onwards. I was personally around and watching F1 in those days, but
I was a kid, and I didn't really take in all of the details that I can
pick up on now. And I must say, I'm surprised by all of the changes in
F1 since those days, which I never noticed at the time.

So why are pitstops the problem? Okay in 1981 and 82, the concept of the
scheduled pitstop didn't even exist in F1. People were driving the
entire race with a single set of tires! The Brabham team introduced the
concept of scheduled pitstops towards the end of the 82 season, and that
was mainly due to shortcomings in the design of their car at the time,
such as lack of range and fuel capacity. By 83, pretty much every team
picked up on the idea of scheduling pitstops. This turned the F1 races
into a series of sprints, which meant that cars weren't even on the same
strategy on the track, and you have no idea who is really in the lead.
The only commonality they had is that they all started at the same lap,
and they all finished at the same lap, but in between they were like as
if running in different races.

This is also around the time that teams started to dominate seasons,
year after year. McLaren, Williams, Benetton, Red Bull, Mercedes and
Ferrari. These are the teams that keep coming back to dominate, over and
over again during the era of the pitstops. I think it was not a
coincidence that the eras of domination also coincided with the era of
the pitstop.

Now, the FIA has ordered Pirelli to develop a tire that is specifically
designed to degrade by a specific lap number. If they have so much
control over this process, then why not order Pirelli to design tires
that will last the whole race? If they can design a tire that will last
the whole race, with no more than 10% performance degradation, then that
will automatically make pitstops unnecessary, as the fastest way around
a track is to never stop once! You'd still need pitcrews for emergency
situations such as punctures, but otherwise no need for so many of them
anymore. Maybe Pirelli can take its hardest 3 compounds and switch
between them depending which type of circuit: slow, medium, fast. They
would only bring one compound for the entire field for a whole race
weekend. Having harder compounds will also reduce the marbles on the
side of the road, which makes passing difficult.

What do you think?

Yousuf Khan
geoff
2020-05-09 07:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Here's the TLDR: the real problem with modern F1 is ... *pitstops*!
Okay, with the COVID situation around the world, I've been forced to
rewatch old seasons of F1, which I normally would not have any interest
in watching again, I'm usually too engrossed in the current seasons. But
I didn't go back just a few years ago, I went really old school, from
1981 onwards. I was personally around and watching F1 in those days, but
I was a kid, and I didn't really take in all of the details that I can
pick up on now. And I must say, I'm surprised by all of the changes in
F1 since those days, which I never noticed at the time.
So why are pitstops the problem? Okay in 1981 and 82, the concept of the
scheduled pitstop didn't even exist in F1. People were driving the
entire race with a single set of tires! The Brabham team introduced the
concept of scheduled pitstops towards the end of the 82 season, and that
was mainly due to shortcomings in the design of their car at the time,
such as lack of range and fuel capacity. By 83, pretty much every team
picked up on the idea of scheduling pitstops. This turned the F1 races
into a series of sprints, which meant that cars weren't even on the same
strategy on the track, and you have no idea who is really in the lead.
The only commonality they had is that they all started at the same lap,
and they all finished at the same lap, but in between they were like as
if running in different races.
This is also around the time that teams started to dominate seasons,
year after year. McLaren, Williams, Benetton, Red Bull, Mercedes and
Ferrari. These are the teams that keep coming back to dominate, over and
over again during the era of the pitstops. I think it was not a
coincidence that the eras of domination also coincided with the era of
the pitstop.
Now, the FIA has ordered Pirelli to develop a tire that is specifically
designed to degrade by a specific lap number. If they have so much
control over this process, then why not order Pirelli to design tires
that will last the whole race? If they can design a tire that will last
the whole race, with no more than 10% performance degradation, then that
will automatically make pitstops unnecessary, as the fastest way around
a track is to never stop once!  You'd still need pitcrews for emergency
situations such as punctures, but otherwise no need for so many of them
anymore. Maybe Pirelli can take its hardest 3 compounds and switch
between them depending which type of circuit: slow, medium, fast. They
would only bring one compound for the entire field for a whole race
weekend. Having harder compounds will also reduce the marbles on the
side of the road, which makes passing difficult.
What do you think?
    Yousuf Khan
I think the opposite. It makes watchers think more deeply about who is
where and when, and what the relative implications are of the differing
strategies.

I find the pit crews and stops a fascinating element to watch.

Yes, the marbles are a pain - but that's a variable ordained by the FIA
(or F1 ?) and could be eliminated if desired by tyre specification.

geoff
Bigbird
2020-05-09 11:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Here's the TLDR: the real problem with modern F1 is ... pitstops!
Okay, with the COVID situation around the world, I've been forced
to rewatch old seasons of F1, which I normally would not have any
interest in watching again, I'm usually too engrossed in the
current seasons. But I didn't go back just a few years ago, I went
really old school, from 1981 onwards. I was personally around and
watching F1 in those days, but I was a kid, and I didn't really
take in all of the details that I can pick up on now. And I must
say, I'm surprised by all of the changes in F1 since those days,
which I never noticed at the time.
So why are pitstops the problem? Okay in 1981 and 82, the concept
of the scheduled pitstop didn't even exist in F1. People were
driving the entire race with a single set of tires! The Brabham
team introduced the concept of scheduled pitstops towards the end
of the 82 season, and that was mainly due to shortcomings in the
design of their car at the time, such as lack of range and fuel
capacity. By 83, pretty much every team picked up on the idea of
scheduling pitstops. This turned the F1 races into a series of
sprints, which meant that cars weren't even on the same strategy
on the track, and you have no idea who is really in the lead. The
only commonality they had is that they all started at the same lap,
and they all finished at the same lap, but in between they were
like as if running in different races.
This is also around the time that teams started to dominate
seasons, year after year. McLaren, Williams, Benetton, Red Bull,
Mercedes and Ferrari. These are the teams that keep coming back to
dominate, over and over again during the era of the pitstops. I
think it was not a coincidence that the eras of domination also
coincided with the era of the pitstop.
Now, the FIA has ordered Pirelli to develop a tire that is
specifically designed to degrade by a specific lap number. If they
have so much control over this process, then why not order Pirelli
to design tires that will last the whole race? If they can design
a tire that will last the whole race, with no more than 10%
performance degradation, then that will automatically make
pitstops unnecessary, as the fastest way around a track is to
never stop once!  You'd still need pitcrews for emergency
situations such as punctures, but otherwise no need for so many of
them anymore. Maybe Pirelli can take its hardest 3 compounds and
switch between them depending which type of circuit: slow, medium,
fast. They would only bring one compound for the entire field for
a whole race weekend. Having harder compounds will also reduce the
marbles on the side of the road, which makes passing difficult.
What do you think?
    Yousuf Khan
I think the opposite. It makes watchers think more deeply about who
is where and when, and what the relative implications are of the
differing strategies.
I find the pit crews and stops a fascinating element to watch.
Yes, the marbles are a pain - but that's a variable ordained by the
FIA (or F1 ?) and could be eliminated if desired by tyre
specification.
He has also totally ignored the main reason non-stop races would have
been boring parades for most of the last 15 years. The aerodynamics
that have meant a following car needs a huge advantage in order to get
in a position to pass. Pitstops enable that advantage; even then they
need DRS at most tracks.

I can find strategic races fascinating but to be truly interesting
there needs to be a number of viable strategies.

I don't disagree that it can be very difficult to follow unless you
have live timing available... and even then...

To really enthuse me again I think cars need to be able to follow
within 0.5 seconds for several laps without overly degrading their
tyres. I can wait 20 laps for a pass if two cars a duking it out.
--
"However much you deny the truth, the truth goes on existing."
~ George Orwell

Impeached President Trump 16,241 false or misleading claims in his
first three years

"So if you only watch Fox News, because it's
reinforcing what you believe, you are not an informed citizen."
Yousuf Khan
2020-05-11 07:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigbird
He has also totally ignored the main reason non-stop races would have
been boring parades for most of the last 15 years. The aerodynamics
that have meant a following car needs a huge advantage in order to get
in a position to pass. Pitstops enable that advantage; even then they
need DRS at most tracks.
That kind of relates back to pitstops too. The reasons why they can't
follow is because their tires degrade too much after a chase, which
would require you to change them sooner, since tires are too soft and
sensitive these days. The reason tires have been getting softer over the
years is precisely because pitstops exist and tire mfgs know that they
only need them to last a certain distance and then they can put on a new
set. If they had to make them last the whole race, then the tires would
be the hardest varieties. The harder they are, the less they will be
marbling on the circuit, etc. This will make it easier to try different
racing lines on track.

It's not just the tires that overheat, but even the brakes and engines
overheat if you follow too closely for too long. This has resulted in
the ridiculous situation where you can't even follow too closely on the
straights, not just the corners! If you can try different lines on the
track, then you can eliminate cooling issues.
Post by Bigbird
To really enthuse me again I think cars need to be able to follow
within 0.5 seconds for several laps without overly degrading their
tyres. I can wait 20 laps for a pass if two cars a duking it out.
I'm hoping the new generation cars (2022, previously 2021) are going to
fix this aspect myself.

Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan
2020-05-11 04:39:40 UTC
Permalink
I think the opposite.  It makes watchers think more deeply about who is
where and when, and what the relative implications are of the differing
strategies.
I find the pit crews and stops a fascinating element to watch.
Oh, I agree, there is something entertaining to be had about watching a
pitcrew go into action. And it's fascinating to figure out what strategy
with the tires they will employ. But do we want an F1 which is all about
statistics and modelling, or do we want an F1 that is about action on
the road? Do we want the F1 to be more like baseball or cricket, vs.
football (either type)? I think most people want action on the road.

I was just watching several pitstops from 1983, the first year we had
competitive pitstops. The average pitstop was about 17 seconds, an
outstanding pitstop about about 15 seconds. So even in this first season
of pitstops, one crew made a mindblowing 11 second pitstop! And I
genuinely went, "wow!" Now, we're in the era of sub-3 second pitstops.
Does doing an average 3.5s pitstop vs. an outstanding 2.1s pitstop hold
the same level of excitement? No, not at all.

Also another reason we don't see as much passing on the road anymore is
because whenever a car starts to approach backmarkers, the pitcrew calls
them in to change their tires, so as to get them out of the traffic! But
we want to see them in the traffic!
Yes, the marbles are a pain - but that's a variable ordained by the FIA
(or F1 ?) and could be eliminated if desired by tyre specification.
If they made tires strong enough to last the whole race, then
automatically the marbles situation will go down.

Yousuf Khan
geoff
2020-05-11 05:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
I think the opposite.  It makes watchers think more deeply about who
is where and when, and what the relative implications are of the
differing strategies.
I find the pit crews and stops a fascinating element to watch.
Oh, I agree, there is something entertaining to be had about watching a
pitcrew go into action. And it's fascinating to figure out what strategy
with the tires they will employ. But do we want an F1 which is all about
statistics and modelling, or do we want an F1 that is about action on
the road?
Me both aspects.

geoff
b***@topmail.co.nz
2020-05-09 09:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Didn't we have a season with Bridgestones going the whole race? But there was
still refuelling, and probably some accidents with cars taking off with hose
attached.
Yousuf Khan
2020-05-11 07:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Didn't we have a season with Bridgestones going the whole race? But there was
still refuelling, and probably some accidents with cars taking off with hose
attached.
I don't recall all of the Bridgestone compounds being able to last the
whole race. Perhaps a few of their hardest ones, yes.

I recall that at the first annual race at Texas COTA, when they didn't
really have enough data about it, and so they just brought their 3
hardest compounds, and they could all basically last the whole race. It
made strategy irrelevant basically that year. The next year, they
brought softer compounds.

Yousuf Khan
John
2020-05-09 18:53:55 UTC
Permalink
The two compound tire rule has made pit stops silly since it takes so much of the race out of the drivers hands.
Yousuf Khan
2020-05-11 07:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John
The two compound tire rule has made pit stops silly since it takes so much of the race out of the drivers hands.
I think that this happened long before then. In the 1983 season, I'm
seeing that people are already avoiding passing on the track, if they
can just wait for the pitstops. It's nothing like it is now, but the
mentality of the drivers was already starting to change after pitstops
came in.

Yousuf Khan

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