In article <C2C18B81.5A3C6%***@yahoo.co.uk>, ***@yahoo.co.uk
says...
Post by SklengeOh, alrighty then... shy women really don't want to be approached. No,
really, they don't: they're shy;
Perhaps, but the experience I have had with friends of mine says
otherwise. Naturally, they weren't cured of their shyness on the first
try. But simply getting out there and getting used to being approached
got them used to it and then they realized that they didn't have to do
anything special. If they couldn't think of anything to say, it didn't
matter. That was the man's job.
Post by Sklengethe idea of being picked up is frightening and tawdry.
You seem to be equating the notion of being approached with being picked
up. Now, if you go straight to the worst meat-market bar then you are
likely to be "picked up on" but that is different from being "picked
up." Only you can choose whether you actually get "picked up." "Picked up
on" is simply having a man come on rather strong and usually with
somewhat canned lines or questions. If you go to a more friendly bar then
you will avoid that. People will really just start with normal,
appropriate, "nice to meet you" behavior.
Post by SklengeMy advice to a man [shy or otherwise] who wants to pick up a shy woman
specifically is: don't bother, it's not worth the work - you have to wait
until she's no longer shy and can actually pick you up or, at the very
least, can match your level of confidence.
Well, a shy woman definitely requires a different approach. And a shy man
is probably not going to have the skills to break through her barriers.
Besides, if they are *both* shy, don't they already have matching levels
of confidence?
Post by SklengeIncidentally, Grant Robertson, many people actually enjoy the subtle and the
assertive romantic play that constitutes the approaching and "fending off"
that goes on between the sexes.
I know that. But those are the people who know how to do it. People
rarely enjoy doing what they both don't know how to do and rarely succeed
at.
Post by SklengeSo I wouldn't denigrate it as being mere
female snootiness any more than it is all about male arrogance.
I didn't. You seem to be reading a bit too much into what I say. Perhaps
you are arguing against what you believe to be a common notion but a
notion which I did not actually state. I do not denigrate the natural
selectiveness of women as snootiness. But I do recognize that it is
there. It is not just playful entertainment. If that were so then women
would be more forgiving when a man didn't get it just right. It would
simply be a minor party foul. As it is, a woman's natural selectiveness
is just something that men have to deal with. It is not bad. It is not
intentional. And, therefore, it cannot be "snooty." It is just there and
must be dealt with.
As you say, there are some men who enjoy dealing with it. Just like there
are some men who enjoy dealing with riding a bicycle up a steep hill. It
is a challenge and it is fun on the way down the other side. But then
there are some men who never learned to ride a bicycle and who find it a
chore. Once they do learn how to ride, then it will be fun. But, until
then, they skin their knees a lot and they cry.
Post by SklengeIf you're
shy you probably won't understand that therein lies the fun and the thrill
of getting to know people [from whatever motive]. Well you might understand
it in theory but can you do it? Can you enjoy it?
Unlike a lot of people, I do have the ability to understand the
implications of something even if I don't fully understand the thing
itself. I can understand that people enjoy getting into a good fight
(boxers, martial artists) but I don't know how to fight nor can I truly
empathize with their enjoyment. I especially can't empathize with what
some men get out of a "good" bar fight. But some still do enjoy it and I
can understand what primitive portions of the brain are stimulated by
that activity.
As I have said before, people enjoy what they can do. Even if the only
thing that they can "do" is merely the slow learning of how to "do"
something else. If they can't even "do" the learning part, then they very
rarely enjoy the activity itself. Therefore, when I get to where I can
"do" the activity called "flirting" then maybe I will enjoy it. As it is
I have to be content with enjoying the more basic activity of simply
learning - step by step - *how* to flirt. I may not have many successes
with the actual flirting (as in getting dates or even phone numbers) but
I do have enough successes with learning each successive step or bit that
it is enough to keep me trying. And I try to "do" my learning in a manner
that is enjoyable to me. Namely, by talking to people and getting to know
them. I, at least, like that part. If I get in a bit of a flirtation now
and then and don't look like an idiot then I feel I have really
succeeded. That success makes it enjoyable.
Post by SklengeI would think that your advice would only work when a woman is ready to
discard at least 80% of her shyness in the first place. So how does she do
that then?
Well, I guess that depends on just how "shy" she is in the first place.
If she is so severely shy that she can't even go into a bar - and I was
there just a few years ago - then she should try more casual places like
coffee shops, just as I have advised shy men and just as I did when I
finally started getting out. I realize that it is often scarier for women
to go out alone. In that case, women need to get someone to go with them.
If a woman has absolutely no friends, male or female, whom they can go
hang out with, then there are some therapists who are willing to do this.
I was lucky in that there was a popular coffee shop right next to a
popular bar. A lot of the same people hung out at both places. After
hanging out at the coffee shop, I got to know - or at least become
familiar with - some of the regulars of the bar. This finally made it
easier for me to get up the courage to go into that bar. If you knew how
many times I had my hand on the door-handle of that bar, but then didn't
open the door and go in, you would be amazed. I walked past that place
once a week or so for almost a year. But I kept walking past and I
avoided the negative internal reactions that so many others seem to
express here. Yes, at first, I told myself that those people were too
snobby and would never accept me. But I fought back those feelings -
sometimes using things I had read in the "Feeling Good,..." book - and,
over time, finally made myself go in. The first few times I could only
stand to be in there for an hour or so. I was still convinced that no one
there would ever like me, and I made up all kinds of reasons. But I just
kept going. Eventually, I got comfortable enough to start talking to
people and people started talking to me. One young woman even said to me,
"No. You are not allowed to come to 'The Patio' and then sit there and be
anti-social. What's your name?"
So, if a woman is so shy that she cannot even walk into a bar, then she
is no more shy than I was when I started. (If she can't even get out of
the house then that is agoraphobia and there are treatments for that.)
All it really takes is the determination that the sickness (being lonely)
is much worse than the cure (the temporary stress of being in an
uncomfortable situation). I never said it was easy as pie for a shy woman
to get out there. What I did say is that getting out there is about all
she really has to do. Enough people will approach a woman soon enough and
often enough that she will get over her shyness much sooner than an
equivalently shy man. Even if a woman is too shy to even respond when men
approach her - as in: can barely answer when he asks questions - then
other women will approach that shy woman and befriend her. Naturally,
this is more likely to happen at a "friendly" bar, as I mentioned
earlier.
Post by SklengeMy shyness at that age included a real aversion to exposing my femininity to
male onlookers [and I still feel that way]. So showing off any part of my
anatomy to strangers was totally off the agenda. I don't even like seeing
other women and men dressing like tramps. Your advice would have been quite
abhorrent to me, albeit honest and practical.
How much of your body are you talking about not "showing off to
strangers?" Remember, all I stated as a requirement was not covering up
your collar bones. Cleavage is optional. These women friends used to
always wear shirts that went higher than the normal men's T-shirt. That
is usually a subtle signal that a woman is not open to being approached.
That and the hunching forward of the shoulders to hide the chest. Even I
knew that way back then. I'm not talking about suddenly switching to
halter tops with no bra. You can just wear a normal, modest bra, under a
normal, modest shirt that is simply more open at the neck. All you need
to really show is the top of your sternum and you have crossed the line
from "Don't talk to me!" to "I might be quiet but I won't bite your head
off." Showing the top of your sternum is not being a tramp. Showing off
the top of your xiphoid process may be. It really depends on the
situation, the intention of the owner of said xiphoid process, and the
temperament of the observer.
Post by SklengeI could just as fairly say to you: "just be more dominant and masculine";
this would be a comparable piece of advice to your "just show off more of
your body and be more feminine". Both pieces of advice are spot-on but
worthless to shy people.
Now you truly *are* reading more into what I wrote, and actually quoting
what I did not say. I did not say, "and be more feminine." Someone else
in your past may have said that, but I did not. You seem to be arguing
against what you have either heard in the past or made up in your own
head rather than what I said. From what I have seen, a woman does not
have to "be more feminine." All she has to do is change one tiny thing
about how she dresses and then get the hell out there. Again, getting the
hell out there may not be easy, but it is about the same for men and
women - both of whom will say it is easier for the other, for various
reasons. Once a man "gets the hell out there" he also must learn a vast
litany of social cues and body language signals and the appropriate
responses and timings to all of them. A woman doesn't have to learn all
of these signals because she either gives them off naturally or most
normal men will simply soldier on even when they don't get the "best"
feedback signals.
So, it truly is different for men than it is for women. I'm not saying it
is "easy for women." But I am saying it is "easier," noting that easier
may still be pretty difficult for some people.