Discussion:
New HPS operational/strategic game and Napoleonic title
(too old to reply)
s***@hotmail.com
2005-05-09 19:28:37 UTC
Permalink
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
discovered, on the front page, blurbs for two new titles. One,
Napoleonic Battles: Campaign Waterloo
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A92-8763-6E8788B39330}&ic=NAPOBCW%2EIR&eq=&Tp=)
is one I'd heard of before, but the other, World War II: The First
Blitzkrieg
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A92-8763-6E8788B39330}&ic=WORLWIIFB%2EIR&eq=&Tp=)
is apparently the first game in a new series (I wonder if this is the
"War in Europe"-like game that Tiller has supposedly been working on?).
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)

Scott
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-09 19:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
discovered, on the front page, blurbs for two new titles. One,
Napoleonic Battles: Campaign Waterloo
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A9
2-8763-6E8788B39330}&ic=NAPOBCW%2EIR&eq=&Tp=) is one I'd heard of
before, but the other, World War II: The First Blitzkrieg
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A9
2-8763-6E8788B39330}&ic=WORLWIIFB%2EIR&eq=&Tp=) is apparently the
first game in a new series (I wonder if this is the "War in
Europe"-like game that Tiller has supposedly been working on?).
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Glenn Saunders posted this over in the WarefareHQ forum yesterday :

"Another New Panzer Campaign is MASTERED - This title will be released on
the TILLERCON Weekend in Richmond Virginia - Friday June 17th. Hope to see
anyone who can make it there.

Also - with any luck HPS will have something new up next Friday. All I can
say for now is that it is NOT a Panzer Campaign, but it covers a World War
II topic, and is the start of something new, with additional titles to
follow.

...but there are still more PzCs coming too - we're actively working on
another title that has been in the works since PzC #3. Lots of good games
to come if you like John Tiller Wargames."

- - - -

Seems like there's still some life in the Battleground engine :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
JP
2005-05-09 21:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
discovered, on the front page, blurbs for two new titles. One,
Napoleonic Battles: Campaign Waterloo
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A92-876
3-6E8788B39330}&ic=NAPOBCW%2EIR&eq=&Tp=)
Post by s***@hotmail.com
is one I'd heard of before, but the other, World War II: The First
Blitzkrieg
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A92-876
3-6E8788B39330}&ic=WORLWIIFB%2EIR&eq=&Tp=)
Post by s***@hotmail.com
is apparently the first game in a new series (I wonder if this is the
"War in Europe"-like game that Tiller has supposedly been working on?).
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Scott
<sound of golf clap>
Mike Cox
2005-05-09 21:30:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Scott
Rich Hamilton's site had this on Campaign Waterloo:

http://hist-sdc.com/waterloo/
Bill
2005-05-11 22:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Post by Mike Cox
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Scott
http://hist-sdc.com/waterloo/
JP
2005-05-11 23:53:31 UTC
Permalink
That's because they basically are.
Post by Bill
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Post by Mike Cox
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Scott
http://hist-sdc.com/waterloo/
Epi
2005-05-12 00:49:17 UTC
Permalink
In article <IXwge.611$***@eagle.america.net>, ***@hotmail.com
says...
Post by JP
That's because they basically are.
Post by Bill
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Post by Mike Cox
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Scott
http://hist-sdc.com/waterloo/
Heh heh, as they say: "Some things never change."
--
Epi

------------
I perceive that smoking
cigarettes is very healthy for me.
Perception is reality.
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Giftzwerg
2005-05-12 11:19:20 UTC
Permalink
In article <guKdnTcuk-75FR_fRVn-***@giganews.com>, ***@comcast.net
says...
Post by Bill
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Fancy that. <g>
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Adam Parker
2005-05-12 21:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
says...
Post by Bill
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Fancy that. <g>
You guys crack me up. From "The story of S.S.I." by JACK POWELL, Antic
Technical Editor, VOL. 4, NO. 3, July 1985, p28:

"WAR PAYS!

Most SSI games are written in BASIC then compiled for speed. Almost all
their games are written by outside contributors. Of the 12 games
published last year, six were by regular contibutors-such as the
prolific and popular Gary Grigsby-but six were by complete newcomers.

'There's a decent amount of money to be made. A war game may bring in
$10-20,000 for the programmer.'....

SSI has developed in-house graphics tools-Graph-Pak and
Square-Pak-which speed map design and handle special algorithms...
Utilities such as these simplify transfer between computers and 'allow
us to crank these games out.'

Billings referred to some of their games as 'clone games.' By keeping
the core system and changing the weapons and the map, a new game is
created. Gary Grigsby is their most prolific author partly because he's
mastered their utility tools and the concept of clone games. 'New math,
new database, and you've got a whole new game.' "

Fancy that! Tiller isn't the master of "crank and clone" afterall? Nor
it seems is "clone and conquer" such a unique term? You mean there's
money to be made out of a stable game engine? Why didn't they think of
this 10 years before Talonsoft's Battleground? Why isn't Matrix's "War
in the Pacific" uncannily like Talonsoft's "Battle of Britain"? Oh you
mean they tweaked the interface and certain aspects like... turn
sequencing... combat routines and... rules? You mean these could be
different games afterall? Kudos to Grigsby, Billings, Koger, Tiller et
al. Especially Al. What a guy.

Adam.
JP
2005-05-12 21:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
Post by Epi
says...
Post by Bill
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Fancy that. <g>
You guys crack me up. From "The story of S.S.I." by JACK POWELL, Antic
"WAR PAYS!
Most SSI games are written in BASIC then compiled for speed. Almost all
their games are written by outside contributors. Of the 12 games
published last year, six were by regular contibutors-such as the
prolific and popular Gary Grigsby-but six were by complete newcomers.
'There's a decent amount of money to be made. A war game may bring in
$10-20,000 for the programmer.'....
SSI has developed in-house graphics tools-Graph-Pak and
Square-Pak-which speed map design and handle special algorithms...
Utilities such as these simplify transfer between computers and 'allow
us to crank these games out.'
Billings referred to some of their games as 'clone games.' By keeping
the core system and changing the weapons and the map, a new game is
created. Gary Grigsby is their most prolific author partly because he's
mastered their utility tools and the concept of clone games. 'New math,
new database, and you've got a whole new game.' "
Fancy that! Tiller isn't the master of "crank and clone" afterall? Nor
it seems is "clone and conquer" such a unique term? You mean there's
money to be made out of a stable game engine? Why didn't they think of
this 10 years before Talonsoft's Battleground? Why isn't Matrix's "War
in the Pacific" uncannily like Talonsoft's "Battle of Britain"? Oh you
mean they tweaked the interface and certain aspects like... turn
sequencing... combat routines and... rules? You mean these could be
different games afterall? Kudos to Grigsby, Billings, Koger, Tiller et
al. Especially Al. What a guy.
Adam.
Fancy that; an article from *1985*, used as a defense for the "Tiller CD
Pressing Company" style. Pretty much proves the point. And yes, Tiller IS
the master of "crank and clone."

A dubious distinction to be sure, but if the shoe fits........
Adam Parker
2005-05-12 22:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Golf clap. Prolific comeback my esteemed fellow poster! Psst. Now don't
fret that you'll also this year or next see a game that looks just like
The Operational Art of War.
JP
2005-05-13 01:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
Golf clap. Prolific comeback my esteemed fellow poster! Psst. Now don't
fret that you'll also this year or next see a game that looks just like
The Operational Art of War.
My, a bit sensitive on the subject, eh ? Looks like you need to worry
more about yourself fretting, rather than me. Interesting, but hardly
surprising.

As to your rhetorical TAOW example, what does The Tiller Clone Company now
have control over Kroger's work too ? Nah, can't be. Afterall, it's been
what, seven years since TAOW was released, whereas we all know, The TCC
likes to work in weeks at most between <wink> new releases.
Adam Parker
2005-05-13 02:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by JP
My, a bit sensitive on the subject, eh ? Looks like you need to worry
more about yourself fretting, rather than me. Interesting, but hardly
surprising.
LOL! Not at all! Picture these posts being written with a smile.
Anything I can do to make the ignorant wiser :-D

As for the TOAW look alike - it's not an HPS or Tiller game. I thought
you were up to speed on our hobby?

Anyway as I once long ago wrote, some people just can't understand why
a game of Kharkov 42 would be played on the same map as Kharkov 43.
Geez World War 2 was such a cookie cutter affair!

In future wars may we please conquer something and just move on - to
preferably something with new palette?
JP
2005-05-13 02:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by JP
Post by JP
My, a bit sensitive on the subject, eh ? Looks like you need to
worry
Post by JP
more about yourself fretting, rather than me. Interesting, but
hardly
Post by JP
surprising.
LOL! Not at all! Picture these posts being written with a smile.
Anything I can do to make the ignorant wiser :-D
Hehe, you're an asshole, but one of these :-D means I'm just joking
too, right ?
Post by JP
As for the TOAW look alike - it's not an HPS or Tiller game. I thought
you were up to speed on our hobby?
Whoosh, right over the top it went........best stick to being an HPS
fanbois/tester :-D
Adam Parker
2005-05-13 03:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Nah, the actual title is:

"War Game Player".

Shhh! I'm (whipser) multi-developer ;-)
JP
2005-05-13 19:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
"War Game Player".
Shhh! I'm (whipser) multi-developer ;-)
Hehe, ah, the usual TS, er, HPS, fanbois line, heard over and over ad
nauseam; " I'm just a wargame player, just like you guys......etc., etc. "
First heard it from basically the same group, on the old TS forums, when
East Front came out.

Over and over again; someone would be having problems/a comment about the
game, and fanbois X would spew forth the "I'm just a wargame player, just
like you guys, ....etc., etc.", usually while stating he never had/never had
seen the problems numerous posters were mentioning, the game was perfect,
the best, etc. (of course, that would change upon the next release, when the
same group would state that that game was perfect, was the best, etc.)

Now they do it with HPS titles. They could sell snow to an eskimo, have
to give them credit. I wonder who'll they'll latch onto when they're done
at HPS.
Adam Parker
2005-05-14 07:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Talonsoft! You mean Tiller, Grisgsby, Brors, Koger? You turkey!

Btw I'm still waiting for TS to patch my Divided Ground, those
bastards! TOAW a game where every single rifle and truck goes into
combat. East/West Front et al., games where rules for armor facing
exist but you can change facing at the end of every turn without
penalty? Battle of Britain where you're encouraged to join a weight
loss class and can lose 12 pounds before the AI finshes both yours and
the enemy's turns?

You're a complete and utter buffoon JP!

(No offense to anyone who worked on those games. That was many years
ago. They were a valiant effort but in those days SSI roamed the world
better imo).

Even TS "Battleground Napoleonics" and ACW - beautiful maps with 3D
icons so small in useful zoom, I to this day can't play them. The only
game I did like was Battleground Bulge - but its AI succumbed.

Yeah, I'm a fanbois alright. For a rock stable, bug free war gaming
engine, an AI with challenge and rules without typos.
Post by JP
" I'm just a wargame player, just like you guys......etc., etc. "
Nah you even got it wrong there. I'm nothing like you ;-) You lost this
battle with my first post! You gotta read Sun Tzu and flee to fight
another day :-D

Cheers,
Adam.
JP
2005-05-14 19:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
Talonsoft! You mean Tiller, Grisgsby, Brors, Koger? You turkey!
Btw I'm still waiting for TS to patch my Divided Ground, those
bastards! TOAW a game where every single rifle and truck goes into
combat. East/West Front et al., games where rules for armor facing
exist but you can change facing at the end of every turn without
penalty? Battle of Britain where you're encouraged to join a weight
loss class and can lose 12 pounds before the AI finshes both yours and
the enemy's turns?
You're a complete and utter buffoon JP!
(No offense to anyone who worked on those games. That was many years
ago. They were a valiant effort but in those days SSI roamed the world
better imo).
Even TS "Battleground Napoleonics" and ACW - beautiful maps with 3D
icons so small in useful zoom, I to this day can't play them. The only
game I did like was Battleground Bulge - but its AI succumbed.
Yeah, I'm a fanbois alright. For a rock stable, bug free war gaming
engine, an AI with challenge and rules without typos.
Post by JP
" I'm just a wargame player, just like you guys......etc., etc. "
Nah you even got it wrong there. I'm nothing like you ;-) You lost this
battle with my first post! You gotta read Sun Tzu and flee to fight
another day :-D
Cheers,
Adam.
Hehe, who's fighting ? Like I said, same 'ole fanbois crowd (+/-) that
infested the TS scene, hitched up with HPS, and the only thing that's
changed in their spiels are the substiution of HPS for TS.

Just because you're a latecomer to that crowd, don't blame me :-D
Adam Parker
2005-05-13 03:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Nah, the actual title is:

"War Game Player".

Shhh! I'm (whipser) multi-developer ;-)
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-13 06:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
Psst. Now don't
fret that you'll also this year or next see a game that looks just like
The Operational Art of War.
Hi,

ok - I'll bite - is there anything more you care to divulge about this
game ?

The only game in development I know about that comes close is "Combined
Arms : World War II" in development at Matrix Games.

Unless it's an HPS game of course in which case we'll find the game for
sale at NWS before it's even mentioned on the website ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Adam Parker
2005-05-13 08:28:58 UTC
Permalink
I wish I looked like Omar Sharif... (Lawrence of Arabia circa).
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-13 09:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
I wish I looked like Omar Sharif... (Lawrence of Arabia circa).
Unless you accidentily crossposted this from
alt.celebrities.lookalikewannabees the above line could be seen as what
rocket scientists call a "clue"

hm, as my brain default setting is "pretty clueless" this will be a
hard one to crack. - Google to the rescue !

An 'Omar Sharif' designed a board wargame called 'Quo Vadis' -> TOAW -
a Century of Warfare will get an add-on : A Millenium or 2 of Warfare ?

Some Lebanese politician is said to "look like Omar Sharif" ->
Operational game on the Arab/Israeli wars. Something like "The Star and
the Crescent : The Arab/Israeli Wars 1956 to 2009" from Shrapnel ?

Meta meaning of "looked like" as in wish you could gaze across the
desert -> operational Rommel game ?

Ok - by now you've seen how stupid my guesses are. You could either
give me another clue - hereby prolonging the torture - or stop giving
those bloody clues and just tell us :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Adam Parker
2005-05-13 11:03:45 UTC
Permalink
No no no. "Schreef" = Omar Sharif???

Your mention of Battlefields is right Eddy.

When seeing the first screen shots of B'fields (now CA:WW2) my first
impression was "so here's what's happened to TOAW" - same look graphics
set, map and map labels. Uncanny. But by the interface screen shots
I've seen since, definitely promising a different user experience from
Norm's earlier efforts. Pretty graphics, pretty similar in look to TOAW
even to the point of label fonting and floating names. Hence its ref in
this thread.

Obviously Cookie Cutter Company stuff, them folks borrowing this
look...
Not.
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-13 11:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
No no no. "Schreef" = Omar Sharif???
Google groups insists on "internationalizing". My pc's regional setting
is set to Dutch so instead of getting "Adam Parker wrote" you get "Adam
Parker schreef" - you can recognize the latin "scribe" in there of
which derivatives are still used in English. And no, I'm not Dutch - at
least not in the sence the Anglo-Saxons interpret it.
Post by Adam Parker
Your mention of Battlefields is right Eddy.
Lucky guess :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Adam Parker
2005-05-13 11:34:31 UTC
Permalink
LOL - I actually looked schreef up in my O***** dictionary too <G>
Giftzwerg
2005-05-13 10:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
Golf clap. Prolific comeback my esteemed fellow poster! Psst. Now don't
fret that you'll also this year or next see a game that looks just like
The Operational Art of War.
From Norm Koger? Doubt it.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Giftzwerg
2005-05-13 10:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Parker
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Bill
Looks like Talonsoft's old game.
Fancy that. <g>
You guys crack me up. From "The story of S.S.I." by JACK POWELL, Antic
"WAR PAYS!
[snip]
Post by Adam Parker
Billings referred to some of their games as 'clone games.' By keeping
the core system and changing the weapons and the map, a new game is
created. Gary Grigsby is their most prolific author partly because he's
mastered their utility tools and the concept of clone games. 'New math,
new database, and you've got a whole new game.' "
Fancy that! Tiller isn't the master of "crank and clone" afterall? Nor
it seems is "clone and conquer" such a unique term? You mean there's
money to be made out of a stable game engine? Why didn't they think of
this 10 years before Talonsoft's Battleground?
Perhaps they did. And if they were still doing this today, rest assured
that I, for one, would be Calling A Spade A Spade
Post by Adam Parker
Why isn't Matrix's "War
in the Pacific" uncannily like Talonsoft's "Battle of Britain"?
Uh, because they're light-years apart in most significant aspects?
Post by Adam Parker
Oh you
mean they tweaked the interface and certain aspects like... turn
sequencing... combat routines and... rules?
<laughter>

Sounds like the old saw about George Washington's axe:

"This is the *very* axe that George Washington used to chop down the
cherry tree. Of course, over the years it's had twelve new handles and
three new axe-heads..."
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
s***@hotmail.com
2005-05-14 19:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Adam Parker wrote:
<snip>
Nor it seems is "clone and conquer" such a unique term?
Heh... I think I can shed some light on that phrase. As far as I
know, I was the one who coined it back in my days with Strategy Plus
(aka Computer Games Strategy Plus, aka S+ or S-Plus, now Computer Games
Magazine). I used it in a column where I was decrying the many clones
of Command & Conquer, and other similar RTS games, that we started to
see in such abundance in '97/'98. I admit to feeling some pride
(perhaps misplaced, if others came up with the term too) in seeing the
phrase used still today, even if in a different context... :P

Scott
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-14 21:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
Heh... I think I can shed some light on that phrase. As far as I
know, I was the one who coined it back in my days with Strategy Plus
(aka Computer Games Strategy Plus, aka S+ or S-Plus, now Computer Games
Magazine).
It must be nice if something you've thought up ends up in the wargamer's
lingo :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
James Cobb
2005-05-09 22:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@hotmail.com
I just dropped by Chips 'n' Bits' web site (www.chipsbits.com) and
discovered, on the front page, blurbs for two new titles. One,
Napoleonic Battles: Campaign Waterloo
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A92-8763-6E8788B39330}&ic=NAPOBCW%2EIR&eq=&Tp=)
is one I'd heard of before, but the other, World War II: The First
Blitzkrieg
(http://www.chipsbits.com/itemdesc.asp?CartId={EVEREST259B45F3-34AB-4A92-8763-6E8788B39330}&ic=WORLWIIFB%2EIR&eq=&Tp=)
is apparently the first game in a new series (I wonder if this is the
"War in Europe"-like game that Tiller has supposedly been working on?).
Both are due to ship May 13th. Anyone have any more details on these?
(There is some blurbage on the Chips website.)
Scott
Primary unit is division,2 turns per day, supply is much more important.
Interface seems the usual. First game cover 9/30 - 7/40 (may go to Sealion,
not sure). More later.
tbob
2005-05-09 23:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Cobb
Primary unit is division,2 turns per day, supply is much more important.
Interface seems the usual. First game cover 9/30 - 7/40 (may go to
Sealion, not sure). More later.
I've never bought any of Tiller's WWII games, even though the subject
appeals to me greatly. The scale (6 bazillion turns, 12 bazillion units)
turned me off completely. This game I will almost certainly buy.

tbob
James Cobb
2005-05-10 00:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by tbob
Post by James Cobb
Primary unit is division,2 turns per day, supply is much more important.
Interface seems the usual. First game cover 9/30 - 7/40 (may go to
Sealion, not sure). More later.
I've never bought any of Tiller's WWII games, even though the subject
appeals to me greatly. The scale (6 bazillion turns, 12 bazillion units)
turned me off completely. This game I will almost certainly buy.
tbob
Many hypotheticals; good tie in to the France 40 thread.
Dirk Gross
2005-05-13 03:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by tbob
The scale (6 bazillion turns, 12 bazillion units)
turned me off completely. This game I will almost certainly buy.
tbob
Have you played the Panzer Campaigns games? All of them have numerous
scenarios that are much smaller and playable than the full-blown campaigns.
I've been playing them from the start, and just now began a campaign -
Market Garden. I'm on turn 35 of 90 and it takes only about 20 minutes per
turn (e-mail). I picked that campaign to play because of the small size. I
haven't got time for the big campaigns either. You just need to pick the
right one.

Dirk
Eric Whitfield
2005-05-14 10:54:36 UTC
Permalink
OK, so I read elsewhere that this new Tiller HPS game is not just PzC at a
different scale, but completely new code and AI routines written from the
ground up. It supposedly plays much faster than PzC.

Great, it sounds very tempting, but then a quick look at the paltry few
screen shots available, and there we are, that same old interface and
graphics again. What a great way to turn people off what just might be a
good game. It's almost as if they don't actually want to attract any new
customers beyond the confines of the PzC faithful, a view which is
reinforced by the lack of information about the title - no list of
scenarios, only the vaguest details of gameplay....
Giftzwerg
2005-05-14 11:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Whitfield
OK, so I read elsewhere that this new Tiller HPS game is not just PzC at a
different scale, but completely new code and AI routines written from the
ground up. It supposedly plays much faster than PzC.
Great, it sounds very tempting, but then a quick look at the paltry few
screen shots available, and there we are, that same old interface and
graphics again. What a great way to turn people off what just might be a
good game. It's almost as if they don't actually want to attract any new
customers beyond the confines of the PzC faithful, a view which is
reinforced by the lack of information about the title - no list of
scenarios, only the vaguest details of gameplay....
Well, what evidence is there that the game *was* "written from the
ground up" with "completely new code and AI routines?" The say-so of
the developers who've been selling us BATTLEGROUND Vxx.xx as a
"completely new" game for ... how many years now?

I'm sorry, but there are a few too many sausages coming out of the
machine on a continuous basis for me to conclude that *this* particular
sausage can be anything but a redress of the last several dozen
sausages. Until I see some actual evidence, my conclusion is that this
is just BATTLEGROUND XXVIX, or PANZER CAMPAIGNS with a new scale; HPS is
increasingly redolent of the cinematic FRIDAY THE 13TH franchise.

Same shit, new pricing.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Eric Whitfield
2005-05-14 11:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Well, what evidence is there that the game *was* "written from the
ground up" with "completely new code and AI routines?" The say-so of
the developers who've been selling us BATTLEGROUND Vxx.xx as a
"completely new" game for ... how many years now?
I'm sorry, but there are a few too many sausages coming out of the
machine on a continuous basis for me to conclude that *this* particular
sausage can be anything but a redress of the last several dozen
sausages. Until I see some actual evidence, my conclusion is that this
is just BATTLEGROUND XXVIX, or PANZER CAMPAIGNS with a new scale; HPS is
increasingly redolent of the cinematic FRIDAY THE 13TH franchise.
Same shit, new pricing.
The 'evidence', I'm afraid, was just a post Glenn Saunders made on Warfare
HQ:

"....please don't say it is PzC at another scale, because there is no PzC
Code in this game. It was built from scratch starting just after PzC #3 came
out. Sure it is a Tiller Game with a style in the images which can make the
Gettysburg and Panzer Campaign similar. Even the AI came from John's recent
defense contract and none of that AI code is in any PzC's."

No, I'm not convinced by that, either.

But I'm sure there'll be a glowing review by one of the usual sycophants
appearing on The Wargamer pretty soon....
Giftzwerg
2005-05-14 12:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Whitfield
Post by Giftzwerg
Well, what evidence is there that the game *was* "written from the
ground up" with "completely new code and AI routines?" The say-so of
the developers who've been selling us BATTLEGROUND Vxx.xx as a
"completely new" game for ... how many years now?
The 'evidence', I'm afraid, was just a post Glenn Saunders made on Warfare
"....please don't say it is PzC at another scale, because there is no PzC
Code in this game. It was built from scratch starting just after PzC #3 came
out. Sure it is a Tiller Game with a style in the images which can make the
Gettysburg and Panzer Campaign similar. Even the AI came from John's recent
defense contract and none of that AI code is in any PzC's."
I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me - in painstaking detail -
the innovations which clearly and obviously separate this new title from
the previous games.

And it won't be easy, because I'm familiar with this refrain; each new
"series" is trumpeted as being "not-BATTLEGROUND" - and each new title
seems depressingly like its fellows. I think I've purchased the lead
title in each of these "not-BATTLEGROUND" runs; SMOLENSK, ME67, SB:V,
TSUSHIMA, and the arch-ridiculous WAR OVER VIETNAM ... and every time,
it's the same ol' BATTLEGROUND. Balky interface, workaday graphics,
turn-basing, bone-stupid AI...

zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZzzzzzzZZZzzzzz...
Post by Eric Whitfield
No, I'm not convinced by that, either.
But I'm sure there'll be a glowing review by one of the usual sycophants
appearing on The Wargamer pretty soon....
As always, it bears mention that there's nothing *bad* about the
BATTLEGROUND/Tiller series, I guess. If you like the game, then I
suppose it would be difficult not to be delighted at having a new title.
I mean, it's not like there aren't very positive elements at hand; solid
research, good scenarios, robust programming, etc.

But jeezum crow, guys, build something *new*. Enough of selling the old
wine in new bottles[1].

[1] Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all "built from scratch, and not a single
one or zero from the original binary is included in the current title."
Uh-huh. Gotcha. It'll just *look* - and play - suspiciously like the
last series.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Adam Parker
2005-05-14 14:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
But jeezum crow, guys, build something *new*. Enough of selling the old
wine in new bottles[1].
[1] Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all "built from scratch, and not a single
one or zero from the original binary is included in the current title."
Uh-huh. Gotcha. It'll just *look* - and play - suspiciously like the
last series.
Let me give you my take FWIW. LOL. The last time I did this you bought
War Over Vietnam. This time, read first.

1. I had nothing to do with this title.

2. I've already modded the 2d icons to something that I like.

3. The game can best be described IMO as operational war gaming
semi-lite. Not Panzer General by any means but definitely an imported
variety beer and pretzels. It's focus is on force utilization not C&C.
Supply is there but highly abstracted and to contradict that statement
of mine, with quite a complex supply line maths system viz PzC (all
under the hood). It is definitely a much faster play than PzC. No enemy
defensive fire here for example.

4. It's strength is teaching the art of Blitzkrieg. Of concentration
and exploitation. Land forces are either mech, inf, static or arty with
a wide variety of types in between and - with combat and rail engineers
thrown in. Amphib and naval landing operations are there. Rail is
there. Air is highly expanded over PzC in allowing for air superiority,
ground support, port and troop interdiction missions. Missions are
still conducted via a dialog box but I found its interface
counter-intuitive at first over PzC. After a while it does begin to
feel ok but it could be finessed in future titles. At the start of each
turn, a player is asked to assign squadrons based on core plane types
to air superiority or attack roles. The relative air superiority ratio
then results in a pre-turn match-up whose outcome determines each
side's ability to wage counter-air during the enemy's turn.

5. Combat occurs within each hex. Artillery joins this in-hex foray.
Whilst FOW denies knowledge of enemy strength, upon initiation of
combat, an indicator reflects the probability of overrun, superiority,
advantage or disadvantage. A player then proceeds or cancels the battle
at hand. Stacking limits both regulate the total strength of land and
air able to be brought into a hex for each combat type (ie: maneuver vs
air support). A fairly (to me) elongated math system then determines
outcomes (again under the hood).

6. Units (being divs or regts) if successful in overrun, may continue
overrunning ad nauseam up to the limit their movement allows. Mech
units on the other hand may exploit without further combat, again based
on movement allowance remaining. A successful attacker moves into an
hex retreated by the enemy. Artillery, remains in place.

7. Success is based on destruction of the enemy and the ownership of
objectives that generate points rewarding tenure of possession and or
the surrender of enemy nations.

8. The game therefore forces the player ot think strategically and
aggressively, in terms of air, suppression, schwerpunkt and
breakthrough.

9. The AI has shown smarts in using its air better than moi and
coordinating the 1-2-3 punch. On the offense it choses its objectives
and works a path of least resistance to them. Which objectives it
choses is another matter. On defense it is adequate, falling back and
protecting hexes of value but I easily out-defended the AI using my
nouce and interior lines - and on the attack - maybe due to the paucity
of the historical enemy in some scenarios, I easily won. But I've yet
to finish Poland or attempt the huger France or Sealion games. I
believe that with a stronger OOB, the AI should provide some steady
defensive entertainment. Having not spoken to the testers on this I
just can't confirm.

10. Awkward things that made me see the game as a little quirky? The
turn number sequence is very ummm "unique". Keep an eye on your dates
folks - there's no "turn 1 of 10" here for whatever reason. The air
mission dialog as I've mentioned is different to PzC's but I feel,
that's because it's in larger use and its benefit is that here, it may
remain on screen for as long as desired. Again, it does become
comfortable after a while. Then there's the question of the Panzer V on
the cover of a 1940's game...

I'd recommend this game to those looking for an introduction to war
gaming. For the experienced player, it's operations are huge and its
potential for more to come immense. Head to head it will be a
quick-playing blast. It's a much more comfortable play than unfurling a
map of Europe on the carpet. It's quickness of play makes for a
comfortable gaming session but without the graphical bells and whistles
of say GG's World at War (different game and level altogther - but
useful as a contemporary analogy). This game has been made with
attention to the eye but not to overt beauty imo. The interface is
straightforward, with its highlight movement spans and on-map labels
the equivalent of - and as obtrusive as PzC's. It's 2d icons
(especially rail heads) I found very bland. I think the modded 2d icon
set I made will soon at Glenn Saunder's Panzer Campaigns site
http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/welcome.html

To basically attempt to answer your fair question, that's it Giftz.

Adam.
James Cobb
2005-05-14 14:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Giftzwerg
But jeezum crow, guys, build something *new*. Enough of selling the
old
Post by Giftzwerg
wine in new bottles[1].
[1] Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all "built from scratch, and not a
single
Post by Giftzwerg
one or zero from the original binary is included in the current
title."
Post by Giftzwerg
Uh-huh. Gotcha. It'll just *look* - and play - suspiciously like
the
Post by Giftzwerg
last series.
Let me give you my take FWIW. LOL. The last time I did this you bought
War Over Vietnam. This time, read first.
1. I had nothing to do with this title.
2. I've already modded the 2d icons to something that I like.
3. The game can best be described IMO as operational war gaming
semi-lite. Not Panzer General by any means but definitely an imported
variety beer and pretzels. It's focus is on force utilization not C&C.
Supply is there but highly abstracted and to contradict that statement
of mine, with quite a complex supply line maths system viz PzC (all
under the hood). It is definitely a much faster play than PzC. No enemy
defensive fire here for example.
4. It's strength is teaching the art of Blitzkrieg. Of concentration
and exploitation. Land forces are either mech, inf, static or arty with
a wide variety of types in between and - with combat and rail engineers
thrown in. Amphib and naval landing operations are there. Rail is
there. Air is highly expanded over PzC in allowing for air superiority,
ground support, port and troop interdiction missions. Missions are
still conducted via a dialog box but I found its interface
counter-intuitive at first over PzC. After a while it does begin to
feel ok but it could be finessed in future titles. At the start of each
turn, a player is asked to assign squadrons based on core plane types
to air superiority or attack roles. The relative air superiority ratio
then results in a pre-turn match-up whose outcome determines each
side's ability to wage counter-air during the enemy's turn.
5. Combat occurs within each hex. Artillery joins this in-hex foray.
Whilst FOW denies knowledge of enemy strength, upon initiation of
combat, an indicator reflects the probability of overrun, superiority,
advantage or disadvantage. A player then proceeds or cancels the battle
at hand. Stacking limits both regulate the total strength of land and
air able to be brought into a hex for each combat type (ie: maneuver vs
air support). A fairly (to me) elongated math system then determines
outcomes (again under the hood).
6. Units (being divs or regts) if successful in overrun, may continue
overrunning ad nauseam up to the limit their movement allows. Mech
units on the other hand may exploit without further combat, again based
on movement allowance remaining. A successful attacker moves into an
hex retreated by the enemy. Artillery, remains in place.
7. Success is based on destruction of the enemy and the ownership of
objectives that generate points rewarding tenure of possession and or
the surrender of enemy nations.
8. The game therefore forces the player ot think strategically and
aggressively, in terms of air, suppression, schwerpunkt and
breakthrough.
9. The AI has shown smarts in using its air better than moi and
coordinating the 1-2-3 punch. On the offense it choses its objectives
and works a path of least resistance to them. Which objectives it
choses is another matter. On defense it is adequate, falling back and
protecting hexes of value but I easily out-defended the AI using my
nouce and interior lines - and on the attack - maybe due to the paucity
of the historical enemy in some scenarios, I easily won. But I've yet
to finish Poland or attempt the huger France or Sealion games. I
believe that with a stronger OOB, the AI should provide some steady
defensive entertainment. Having not spoken to the testers on this I
just can't confirm.
10. Awkward things that made me see the game as a little quirky? The
turn number sequence is very ummm "unique". Keep an eye on your dates
folks - there's no "turn 1 of 10" here for whatever reason. The air
mission dialog as I've mentioned is different to PzC's but I feel,
that's because it's in larger use and its benefit is that here, it may
remain on screen for as long as desired. Again, it does become
comfortable after a while. Then there's the question of the Panzer V on
the cover of a 1940's game...
I'd recommend this game to those looking for an introduction to war
gaming. For the experienced player, it's operations are huge and its
potential for more to come immense. Head to head it will be a
quick-playing blast. It's a much more comfortable play than unfurling a
map of Europe on the carpet. It's quickness of play makes for a
comfortable gaming session but without the graphical bells and whistles
of say GG's World at War (different game and level altogther - but
useful as a contemporary analogy). This game has been made with
attention to the eye but not to overt beauty imo. The interface is
straightforward, with its highlight movement spans and on-map labels
the equivalent of - and as obtrusive as PzC's. It's 2d icons
(especially rail heads) I found very bland. I think the modded 2d icon
set I made will soon at Glenn Saunder's Panzer Campaigns site
http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/welcome.html
To basically attempt to answer your fair question, that's it Giftz.
Adam.
Another "quirk" that could throw veteran Tiller gamers off is that Objective
points are not shown in the terrain info box; those are Surrender points, a
new animal. Objective points can be viewed only from the Info menu.
John
2005-05-14 16:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Based on that description, it sounds like a game I'd like. Count me
in.
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-14 17:00:44 UTC
Permalink
"Adam Parker" <***@bigpond.com> wrote in news:1116079636.946885.55130
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

<best little game preview this year>

Thanks for this little preview - a good read - contains *a lot* more
usefull info than the blurb at :

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/TWIE/Blitz/blitz.html

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Dirk Gross
2005-05-14 14:48:35 UTC
Permalink
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released yet.
However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of games and because
of that you'd hate it just because of the graphics, interface, turns, (but
maybe not AI this time). Given your record with Tiller's games, Gifty, I'd
suggest passing on this one too. But let's wait to give the game a chance
to see if it actually plays well for those of us who aren't bothered by the
interface.

Dirk
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Eric Whitfield
Post by Giftzwerg
Well, what evidence is there that the game *was* "written from the
ground up" with "completely new code and AI routines?" The say-so of
the developers who've been selling us BATTLEGROUND Vxx.xx as a
"completely new" game for ... how many years now?
The 'evidence', I'm afraid, was just a post Glenn Saunders made on Warfare
"....please don't say it is PzC at another scale, because there is no PzC
Code in this game. It was built from scratch starting just after PzC #3 came
out. Sure it is a Tiller Game with a style in the images which can make the
Gettysburg and Panzer Campaign similar. Even the AI came from John's recent
defense contract and none of that AI code is in any PzC's."
I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me - in painstaking detail -
the innovations which clearly and obviously separate this new title from
the previous games.
And it won't be easy, because I'm familiar with this refrain; each new
"series" is trumpeted as being "not-BATTLEGROUND" - and each new title
seems depressingly like its fellows. I think I've purchased the lead
title in each of these "not-BATTLEGROUND" runs; SMOLENSK, ME67, SB:V,
TSUSHIMA, and the arch-ridiculous WAR OVER VIETNAM ... and every time,
it's the same ol' BATTLEGROUND. Balky interface, workaday graphics,
turn-basing, bone-stupid AI...
zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZzzzzzzZZZzzzzz...
Post by Eric Whitfield
No, I'm not convinced by that, either.
But I'm sure there'll be a glowing review by one of the usual sycophants
appearing on The Wargamer pretty soon....
As always, it bears mention that there's nothing *bad* about the
BATTLEGROUND/Tiller series, I guess. If you like the game, then I
suppose it would be difficult not to be delighted at having a new title.
I mean, it's not like there aren't very positive elements at hand; solid
research, good scenarios, robust programming, etc.
But jeezum crow, guys, build something *new*. Enough of selling the old
wine in new bottles[1].
[1] Yeah, yeah, I know, it's all "built from scratch, and not a single
one or zero from the original binary is included in the current title."
Uh-huh. Gotcha. It'll just *look* - and play - suspiciously like the
last series.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings
"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-14 16:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dirk Gross
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released yet.
However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of games and
because of that you'd hate it just because of the graphics, interface,
turns, (but maybe not AI this time). Given your record with Tiller's
games, Gifty, I'd suggest passing on this one too.
eh, maybe I'm wrong but I think Mr. Giftzwerg just mentioned that he
bought *every* first game of *every* "new" series HPS ever published.
That's a very solid indication that he tried to like the games - that he
desperately wanted them to be good, and has given them the benefit of
the doubt (and his money) every time.
Post by Dirk Gross
But let's wait to
give the game a chance to see if it actually plays well for those of
us who aren't bothered by the interface.
Only fair - waiting for a couple of reviews to come in.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Epi
2005-05-14 18:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Post by Dirk Gross
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released yet.
However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of games and
because of that you'd hate it just because of the graphics, interface,
turns, (but maybe not AI this time). Given your record with Tiller's
games, Gifty, I'd suggest passing on this one too.
eh, maybe I'm wrong but I think Mr. Giftzwerg just mentioned that he
bought *every* first game of *every* "new" series HPS ever published.
That's a very solid indication that he tried to like the games - that he
desperately wanted them to be good, and has given them the benefit of
the doubt (and his money) every time.
I think he meant his record of liking them, not buying.
--
Epi

------------
Some people enjoy the things that money can buy.
Others just like the money itself.
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-14 18:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Post by Dirk Gross
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released
yet. However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of
games and because of that you'd hate it just because of the
graphics, interface, turns, (but maybe not AI this time). Given
your record with Tiller's games, Gifty, I'd suggest passing on this
one too.
eh, maybe I'm wrong but I think Mr. Giftzwerg just mentioned that he
bought *every* first game of *every* "new" series HPS ever published.
That's a very solid indication that he tried to like the games - that
he desperately wanted them to be good, and has given them the benefit
of the doubt (and his money) every time.
I think he meant his record of liking them, not buying.
Ok - my bad if that's the case.

As a side note : I did try Campaign Corinth in the ACW series and must
say that I liked it - somehow I think the BattleGround engine is better
suited to 19th century warfare simulation.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
2005-05-14 19:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Post by Dirk Gross
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released yet.
However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of games and
because of that you'd hate it just because of the graphics, interface,
turns, (but maybe not AI this time). Given your record with Tiller's
games, Gifty, I'd suggest passing on this one too.
eh, maybe I'm wrong but I think Mr. Giftzwerg just mentioned that he
bought *every* first game of *every* "new" series HPS ever published.
That's a very solid indication that he tried to like the games - that he
desperately wanted them to be good, and has given them the benefit of
the doubt (and his money) every time.
Heck, I'd probably own *all* of their games if they'd throw 'em in the
bargain bin once in a while.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Giftzwerg
2005-05-14 19:29:58 UTC
Permalink
In article <7dohe.29240$***@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>, ***@a.com
says...
Post by Dirk Gross
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released yet.
I'm not "discrediting" it, I'm saying I'll believe it's not-BATTLEGROUND
when I see it.
Post by Dirk Gross
However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of games
No. We don't think Tiller makes games. He made *a* game. This is just
another iteration of it.
Post by Dirk Gross
and because
of that you'd hate it just because of the graphics, interface, turns, (but
maybe not AI this time). Given your record with Tiller's games, Gifty, I'd
suggest passing on this one too.
I fully intend to hang waaaaaaaaay back. If anyone with an opinion I
trust says, "This is fabulously not like BATTLEGROUND!", then I might
give it a look.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Dirk Gross
2005-05-14 20:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Epi's right. I meant that you don't like his style, and it's almost certain
this one will be similar to the extent you won't like it either. And that's
no big deal, it's like me arguing blue is better than orange. For me, even
though Korsun Pocket was deemed wargame of the year by at least one mag, I
never liked the feel of the system. But when you find a system you like,
it's great when it's supported and expanded on and on. Ardennes Offensive,
Korsun Pocket, Across the Dnper, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy.
More sausages? It's a system that apparently a lot of people like, and good
for them. I'm glad companies are putting out quality games even if that
style doesn't fit mine. Why the need for so many to go after HPS's and
Tiller's games? I generally like Tiller's style, although I have a hard
time getting into the Squad Battles series, and I never tried the naval or
air stuff. But I'm in four game clubs that support the Early American, ACW,
Panzer and Modern Battles series by email and I have about 6-8 games going
at a time. The clubs are so popular there is never a lack of somebody to
play. And, once you play human vs. human, playing any AI sucks. So, go
ahead and call me a fanboy, 'cause I am. But I'm glad the sausages keep
coming because me and a lot of other wargamers are having a ball playing'em.

Dirk
Post by Epi
says...
Post by Dirk Gross
It's silly for you guys to discredit a game that isn't released yet.
I'm not "discrediting" it, I'm saying I'll believe it's not-BATTLEGROUND
when I see it.
Post by Dirk Gross
However, it's obvious that you don't like Tiller STYLE of games
No. We don't think Tiller makes games. He made *a* game. This is just
another iteration of it.
Post by Dirk Gross
and because
of that you'd hate it just because of the graphics, interface, turns, (but
maybe not AI this time). Given your record with Tiller's games, Gifty, I'd
suggest passing on this one too.
I fully intend to hang waaaaaaaaay back. If anyone with an opinion I
trust says, "This is fabulously not like BATTLEGROUND!", then I might
give it a look.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings
"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Giftzwerg
2005-05-14 21:57:48 UTC
Permalink
In article <Wtthe.29313$***@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>, ***@a.com
says...
Post by Dirk Gross
Epi's right. I meant that you don't like his style, and it's almost certain
this one will be similar to the extent you won't like it either.
Saying it's his "style" that's not liked, though, implies that he makes
all sorts of *different* games that are linked only by "style." I'm
saying it's more like I don't like the *one* game he's ever designed.
Post by Dirk Gross
And that's
no big deal, it's like me arguing blue is better than orange. For me, even
though Korsun Pocket was deemed wargame of the year by at least one mag, I
never liked the feel of the system. But when you find a system you like,
it's great when it's supported and expanded on and on. Ardennes Offensive,
Korsun Pocket, Across the Dnper, Battles in Normandy, Battles in Italy.
More sausages?
Pretty much - although, as I've said before, I gave Tiller the benefit
of the doubt about twenty times before I started wearying of his one-
note piano and calling the sausages sausages. I'll give SSG the same
leeway, but rest assured that if they start cranking out naval games,
and airpower games, and horse & musket games - all of which look the
same, play the same, and feature the same retarded AI - then I shall
certainly start to find the "Trout" game tiresome.

I think we should at least stir into our calculations the effort that's
put into new titles in the same system. Panther, for example, has been
working on the next title in the AIRBORNE ASSAULT series for almost *two
years*. A sausage? Or two solid years of effort? My suspicion is that
we'll see that two years of effort.

HPS, in sharp contrast, whelps another "Tiller" sausage every ... I
dunno what the chronology here is, but I'm almost sure they're released
*three other titles* while we were all talking about FRANCE '40!
Post by Dirk Gross
It's a system that apparently a lot of people like, and good
for them.
Agreed.
Post by Dirk Gross
I'm glad companies are putting out quality games even if that
style doesn't fit mine.
Speaking for myself, I don't think the games *are* all that high
quality. I think they're mediocre copies of a mediocre original game; I
didn't find BATTLEGROUND terribly cutting edge even when it was first
released - and it hasn't aged as well as Bollinger. "Quality" is a term
I reserve for people who genuinely innovate.
Post by Dirk Gross
Why the need for so many to go after HPS's and
Tiller's games?
Cause he's been selling $50 scenario packs for the same game for a
decade now. We dislike this. Sorry.
Post by Dirk Gross
So, go
ahead and call me a fanboy, 'cause I am. But I'm glad the sausages keep
coming because me and a lot of other wargamers are having a ball playing'em.
Well, go ahead and call me The Dog In The Manger. But the ur-prolific
nature of HPS's meat factory ensures you'll hear some barking three to
five times every year.

<g>
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-14 22:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
I think we should at least stir into our calculations the effort
that's put into new titles in the same system. Panther, for example,
has been working on the next title in the AIRBORNE ASSAULT series for
almost *two years*. A sausage? Or two solid years of effort? My
suspicion is that we'll see that two years of effort.
On top of that Dave O'Connor keeps everyone informed of what he's working
on in the public forum. This is the "progress" thread in which new stuff is
revealed as it is getting programmed. Input is welcomed and more than 1
good user suggestion has made it into the specs.

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%
3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/m.asp%3Fm%3D845309

Compare this style to the latest HPS Blitzkrieg release : it became known
that this game was in development because some other company put it on
their "for sale" webpage too early. Zero user input, zero info, zero pr. If
Mr. Parker hadn't typed up a preview our total information on this game
would be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".

If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
another recent post it became clear that the Crown of Glory developers re-
thought their no-pbem strategy after user input on the forum. Who's
correcting Mr. Tiller's mistakes ?
Post by Giftzwerg
HPS, in sharp contrast, whelps another "Tiller" sausage every ... I
dunno what the chronology here is, but I'm almost sure they're
released *three other titles* while we were all talking about FRANCE
'40!
4 games so far this year - all Tiller games :

Panzer Campaigns - France '40
Campaign Peninsula
Napoleonic Battles : Campaign Waterloo
World War 2 in Europe : The First Blitzkrieg

Given that Matrix Games has released 3 this year (all by different
developers) I'd say that they've been pretty busy :)

Flashpoint Germany
Gary Grigsby's World at War
Tin Soldiers : Julius Caesar
Post by Giftzwerg
Cause he's been selling $50 scenario packs for the same game for a
decade now. We dislike this. Sorry.
There's a type of gamer who likes this : they've got busy schedules and
don't have the time or patience to learn a new system to get their wargame
fix. For them the ability to visit every theather in the war within the
same game system is bliss. And the price tag is irrelevant for most
wargamers I know in my age bracket.
Post by Giftzwerg
Well, go ahead and call me The Dog In The Manger. But the ur-prolific
nature of HPS's meat factory ensures you'll hear some barking three to
five times every year.
*Very* conservative estimate - at this rate it'll be 10 games.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Epi
2005-05-14 23:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Panzer Campaigns - France '40
Campaign Peninsula
Napoleonic Battles : Campaign Waterloo
World War 2 in Europe : The First Blitzkrieg
I might actually end up getting campaign Peninsula. In one of the
screenshots you can actually see the farm I grew up on. It's easy to
spot because it's a peninsula on the James River.
--
Epi

------------
Some people enjoy the things that money can buy.
Others just like the money itself.
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-15 07:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Panzer Campaigns - France '40
Campaign Peninsula
Napoleonic Battles : Campaign Waterloo
World War 2 in Europe : The First Blitzkrieg
I might actually end up getting campaign Peninsula. In one of the
screenshots you can actually see the farm I grew up on. It's easy to
spot because it's a peninsula on the James River.
I'll give you another good reason to buy it : you can actually add or
modify the text on the map quite easily with notepad. You could (re)name
that farm to "Epi's Ranch" :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Giftzwerg
2005-05-14 23:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Post by Giftzwerg
Cause he's been selling $50 scenario packs for the same game for a
decade now. We dislike this. Sorry.
There's a type of gamer who likes this : they've got busy schedules and
don't have the time or patience to learn a new system to get their wargame
fix. For them the ability to visit every theather in the war within the
same game system is bliss.
Yeah, but this is perilously close to observing that there's something
to be said for being a fan of Harlequin Romances; you're never left with
a painful wait for the next wretchedly formulaic literary treat - and
it's never a hard read when it arrives.

[Us James Clavell fans, on the other hand, only got six books out of the
bugger before he passed on, and all of them were monstrous tomes. And
heaven save the J. D. Salinger aficionados...]
--
Giftzwerg
***
"The greatest danger for those of us who dislike George Bush
is that our instincts may tip over into a desire to see his
foreign policy objectives fail. No reasonable person can oppose
the president's commitment to Islamic democracy."
- Max Hastings

"'May tip over?!?!' Most of you moonbats tipped, flipped, and fucking
skydived into hysterical opposition to every single policy objective
roughly five minutes after Saddam was deposed."
- Giftzwerg
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-16 21:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Post by Giftzwerg
Cause he's been selling $50 scenario packs for the same game for a
decade now. We dislike this. Sorry.
There's a type of gamer who likes this : they've got busy schedules and
don't have the time or patience to learn a new system to get their wargame
fix. For them the ability to visit every theather in the war within the
same game system is bliss.
Yeah, but this is perilously close to observing that there's
something
Post by Giftzwerg
to be said for being a fan of Harlequin Romances; you're never left with
a painful wait for the next wretchedly formulaic literary treat - and
it's never a hard read when it arrives.
Exactly :)

This ng isn't the wargame equivalent of some "Litary Journal & Review"
where only 1000-page tomes get mentioned. There's room in here for
everything, even for (H)arlequin (P)acks of (S)cenario's.
Post by Giftzwerg
[Us James Clavell fans, on the other hand, only got six books out of the
bugger before he passed on, and all of them were monstrous tomes.
And
Post by Giftzwerg
heaven save the J. D. Salinger aficionados...]
Counting myself lucky to be a Donald Duck comic fan - a new one coming
out every week :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Mike Cox
2005-05-16 16:38:19 UTC
Permalink
"Eddy Sterckx" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@216.143.170.11...
be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".
Post by Eddy Sterckx
If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
another recent post it became clear that the Crown of Glory developers re-
thought their no-pbem strategy after user input on the forum. Who's
correcting Mr. Tiller's mistakes ?
While Tiller may be a gaming recluse, HPS does rely heavily on teams of
playtesters. I believe there are 2 for PzCamp, 2 for Nappy, and 2 for ACW.
I have no idea about the other series. Some of the scenario
designers/playtest coordinators solicit feedback regularly from people who
play the games.



Mike - not a play tester, don't know JT, never seen Scott Hamilton, or
received a check from HPS - Cox
Epi
2005-05-16 16:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".
Post by Eddy Sterckx
If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
another recent post it became clear that the Crown of Glory developers re-
thought their no-pbem strategy after user input on the forum. Who's
correcting Mr. Tiller's mistakes ?
While Tiller may be a gaming recluse, HPS does rely heavily on teams of
playtesters. I believe there are 2 for PzCamp, 2 for Nappy, and 2 for ACW.
I have no idea about the other series. Some of the scenario
designers/playtest coordinators solicit feedback regularly from people who
play the games.
Mike - not a play tester, don't know JT, never seen Scott Hamilton, or
received a check from HPS - Cox
They rely heavily on 2 people per game series? I think recluse might be
a good word for HPS as well.
--
Epi

------------
Some people enjoy the things that money can buy.
Others just like the money itself.
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
JP
2005-05-16 22:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Eddy Sterckx
be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".
Post by Eddy Sterckx
If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
another recent post it became clear that the Crown of Glory developers re-
thought their no-pbem strategy after user input on the forum. Who's
correcting Mr. Tiller's mistakes ?
While Tiller may be a gaming recluse, HPS does rely heavily on teams of
playtesters. I believe there are 2 for PzCamp, 2 for Nappy, and 2 for ACW.
I have no idea about the other series. Some of the scenario
designers/playtest coordinators solicit feedback regularly from people who
play the games.
Mike - not a play tester, don't know JT, never seen Scott Hamilton, or
received a check from HPS - Cox
They rely heavily on 2 people per game series? I think recluse might be
a good word for HPS as well.
--
Epi
------------
Some people enjoy the things that money can buy.
Others just like the money itself.
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Especially since it's +/- the same two fanbois over and over and
over......
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-16 18:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".
Post by Eddy Sterckx
If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
another recent post it became clear that the Crown of Glory
developers re- thought their no-pbem strategy after user input on the
forum. Who's correcting Mr. Tiller's mistakes ?
While Tiller may be a gaming recluse, HPS does rely heavily on teams
of playtesters. I believe there are 2 for PzCamp, 2 for Nappy, and 2
for ACW. I have no idea about the other series. Some of the scenario
designers/playtest coordinators solicit feedback regularly from people
who play the games.
That might be the case, but given the glacial pace at which these game
engines evolve I don't think they've got any say in the features aspects
and are just scenario playtesters (balance, historicity, fun, ..) While
this is a worthwile thing and certainly a job that needs to be done
well, it's not what I call participation like the Crown of Glory example
I mentioned or any dozen other I can think off of the top of my head.
Post by Eddy Sterckx
Mike - not a play tester, don't know JT, never seen Scott Hamilton, or
received a check from HPS - Cox
Eddy - playtester of COTA - knows more folk than he can remember - will
accept a check from anyone dumb enough to send me one - Sterckx
--
"Ceterum censeo Belgicam delendam."
(Cato, 'Pro Gerolphe')
Epi
2005-05-16 18:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eddy Sterckx
be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".
Post by Eddy Sterckx
If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
Mike - not a play tester, don't know JT, never seen Scott Hamilton, or
received a check from HPS - Cox
Something about this post smells fishy. I'm not sure if I buy this last
part.

Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Epi
2005-05-16 18:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Eddy Sterckx
be "turn-based regt-div level operational game set in WWII".
Post by Eddy Sterckx
If something irks me about the HPS style it's the zero user input. In
Mike - not a play tester, don't know JT, never seen Scott Hamilton, or
received a check from HPS - Cox
Something about this post smells fishy. I'm not sure if I buy this last
part.
Epi
------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
I quoted the wrong part. I meant about the OP not being connected.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Mike Cox
2005-05-16 20:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Something about this post smells fishy. I'm not sure if I buy this last
part.
That's fine. I only mentioned it because elsewhere it was claimed that HPS
people showed up in disguise to shill the various titles. If you search,
you will see that I am involved in the PBEM clubs, but that is the limit of
my affiliation with HPS.

As to the two lead designers per title, Bill Peters leads one Nap group
(Eckmuhl, Wagram, ???) and Charlie Cutshall(sic?) the other (Russian
Campaign, Waterloo). In PzCamp, I think it is mostly Glenn Saunders and one
other (though David Guegan did France 40). ACW is Rich Walker (?)and Drew
Wegenhofer and Doug Strickler, now that I think of it. This is just stuff
gleaned off the internet and could be completely wrong.
Epi
2005-05-16 20:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Cox
Post by Epi
Something about this post smells fishy. I'm not sure if I buy this last
part.
That's fine. I only mentioned it because elsewhere it was claimed that HPS
people showed up in disguise to shill the various titles. If you search,
you will see that I am involved in the PBEM clubs, but that is the limit of
my affiliation with HPS.
As to the two lead designers per title, Bill Peters leads one Nap group
(Eckmuhl, Wagram, ???) and Charlie Cutshall(sic?) the other (Russian
Campaign, Waterloo). In PzCamp, I think it is mostly Glenn Saunders and one
other (though David Guegan did France 40). ACW is Rich Walker (?)and Drew
Wegenhofer and Doug Strickler, now that I think of it. This is just stuff
gleaned off the internet and could be completely wrong.
I'm not saying I have any proof or anything. Just suspicious.

I also misunderstood the "2" before. I thought you meant two
playtesters.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-16 20:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Cox
Post by Epi
Something about this post smells fishy. I'm not sure if I buy this last
part.
That's fine. I only mentioned it because elsewhere it was claimed that HPS
people showed up in disguise to shill the various titles.
In here ? LOL - hell, if I wouldn't mention HPS once in a while when a
patch is out or it gets known - purely by accident - that they're
selling a new game (great pr btw) you wouldn't know the company existed
by reading this ng.

Come to think of it : a complete stranger wandering into this ng and
asked to point out the obvious HPS shill would almost certainly point
to me :)
Post by Mike Cox
If you search,
you will see that I am involved in the PBEM clubs, but that is the limit of
my affiliation with HPS.
Don't let it get to you - this ng is neutral territory - or actually :
multi-publisher territory. Nobody cares who you're "affiliated" with or
not, it's what you post in here that counts. Some publishers/developers
keep a close eye on this ng and post occasionally, some don't - their
loss.

If someone "affiliated" (what a word !) with HPS cares to keep us up to
date with what's going on over there I personally would be very happy.
Glenn Saunders used to post here but I think I've scared him away
[which was obviously just a ruse to get me some street credibility in
here as I'm the company shill - remember]

Anyway, I'm counting on you to provide us with juicy HPS rumours from
now on :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Epi
2005-05-16 21:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Cox
Post by Mike Cox
Post by Epi
Something about this post smells fishy. I'm not sure if I buy this
last
Post by Mike Cox
Post by Epi
part.
That's fine. I only mentioned it because elsewhere it was claimed
that HPS
Post by Mike Cox
people showed up in disguise to shill the various titles.
In here ? LOL - hell, if I wouldn't mention HPS once in a while when a
patch is out or it gets known - purely by accident - that they're
selling a new game (great pr btw) you wouldn't know the company existed
by reading this ng.
Come to think of it : a complete stranger wandering into this ng and
asked to point out the obvious HPS shill would almost certainly point
to me :)
Post by Mike Cox
If you search,
you will see that I am involved in the PBEM clubs, but that is the
limit of
Post by Mike Cox
my affiliation with HPS.
multi-publisher territory. Nobody cares who you're "affiliated" with or
not, it's what you post in here that counts. Some publishers/developers
keep a close eye on this ng and post occasionally, some don't - their
loss.
If someone "affiliated" (what a word !) with HPS cares to keep us up to
date with what's going on over there I personally would be very happy.
Glenn Saunders used to post here but I think I've scared him away
[which was obviously just a ruse to get me some street credibility in
here as I'm the company shill - remember]
Anyway, I'm counting on you to provide us with juicy HPS rumours from
now on :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they say
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-16 22:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they say
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
It would, but what's affiliated ? if you have a fan website, or if you
make user scenario's for some favourite game, or if you playtested some
game, or if you get a review copy of some game, or run a pbem ladder,
or ...

Under some of these definitions I would be "affiliated" with Matrix
Games, but I would also deny being "affiliated" with them as I find it
a truly ugly word bordering on bribed/paid for.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Epi
2005-05-16 22:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Epi
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they
say
Post by Epi
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
It would, but what's affiliated ? if you have a fan website, or if you
make user scenario's for some favourite game, or if you playtested some
game, or if you get a review copy of some game, or run a pbem ladder,
or ...
Under some of these definitions I would be "affiliated" with Matrix
Games, but I would also deny being "affiliated" with them as I find it
a truly ugly word bordering on bribed/paid for.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
I mainly just mean things being different from what someone says. In
spirit not technically.

I'm even more suspicious of this guy since he responded to me. If he
was for real he might be somewhat mad. He wasn't at all. Just offered
so-called proof that he was who he said he was.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-17 06:24:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
I'm even more suspicious of this guy since he responded to me. If he
was for real he might be somewhat mad. He wasn't at all. Just offered
so-called proof that he was who he said he was.
Do you know how bizar that sounds ? :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Epi
2005-05-17 13:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Epi
I'm even more suspicious of this guy since he responded to me. If
he
Post by Epi
was for real he might be somewhat mad. He wasn't at all. Just
offered
Post by Epi
so-called proof that he was who he said he was.
Do you know how bizar that sounds ? :)
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
It sounds like it makes sense to me. It's just how people tend to act.
I don't claim to know anything for sure. I sold my crystal ball months
ago. I just have very little trust that this guy is representing
himself accurately.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-17 13:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
It sounds like it makes sense to me. It's just how people tend to act.
I don't claim to know anything for sure. I sold my crystal ball months
ago. I just have very little trust that this guy is representing
himself accurately.
I hope you never get suspicious of me, because there's no way I can
reach the bar you've just set for proving something as my "normal"
reaction to wrong information/gossip about me is laughter, followed by
pouring some more oil on the fire so the rumour becomes so unbelievable
most people will dismiss it. It also helps if you're a bit of a
sociopath and don't really care what other people think of you.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Epi
2005-05-17 15:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Epi
It sounds like it makes sense to me. It's just how people tend to
act.
Post by Epi
I don't claim to know anything for sure. I sold my crystal ball
months
Post by Epi
ago. I just have very little trust that this guy is representing
himself accurately.
I hope you never get suspicious of me, because there's no way I can
reach the bar you've just set for proving something as my "normal"
reaction to wrong information/gossip about me is laughter, followed by
pouring some more oil on the fire so the rumour becomes so unbelievable
most people will dismiss it. It also helps if you're a bit of a
sociopath and don't really care what other people think of you.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx
I haven't really set a bar. Just judging a reaction to something. If I
had set a bar, you would have no reason to worry, you would have gone
far higher.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Giftzwerg
2005-05-17 11:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they say
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
How do you define "affiliation," though? Speaking for myself, I'm
"affiliated" with any number of companies in one sense or another. For
example, I'm a longtime user and supporter of Redhat Linux, and
participate in a variety of forums, professional circles, and
initiatives sponsored by Redhat. They've never paid me a nickel, but
I'm interested and involved, nonetheless.

Am I "affiliated" with them?
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report
that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay,
and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked
by the article."
- Reuters

"Fucking charming, this. The Religion of Peace(TM) actually
*murders* people over some lies that the leftist antiAmerican
press prints. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
- Giftzwerg

"
Epi
2005-05-17 15:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they say
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
How do you define "affiliation," though? Speaking for myself, I'm
"affiliated" with any number of companies in one sense or another. For
example, I'm a longtime user and supporter of Redhat Linux, and
participate in a variety of forums, professional circles, and
initiatives sponsored by Redhat. They've never paid me a nickel, but
I'm interested and involved, nonetheless.
Am I "affiliated" with them?
Dude, why don't you try to address what we're talking about, instead of
a word. I didn't start using the word "affiliate."
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Giftzwerg
2005-05-17 17:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they say
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
How do you define "affiliation," though? Speaking for myself, I'm
"affiliated" with any number of companies in one sense or another. For
example, I'm a longtime user and supporter of Redhat Linux, and
participate in a variety of forums, professional circles, and
initiatives sponsored by Redhat. They've never paid me a nickel, but
I'm interested and involved, nonetheless.
Am I "affiliated" with them?
Dude, why don't you try to address what we're talking about, instead of
a word. I didn't start using the word "affiliate."
<shrug>

The point is that your interlocutor might define "affiliated" as
"employed by" or "being paid by," while you might define it as "having
*any* sort of relationship with." This would lead to a situation where
he could honestly claim "no affiliation" while you could claim that one
existed.

Unless we know what the parties mean by their terms, we can't possibly
make any conclusions at all.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report
that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay,
and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked
by the article."
- Reuters

"Fucking charming, this. The Religion of Peace(TM) actually
*murders* people over some lies that the leftist antiAmerican
press prints. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
- Giftzwerg

"
Epi
2005-05-17 17:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
I for one do mind if someone is affiliated with a company that they say
they're not affiliated with. That would be somewhat dishonest.
How do you define "affiliation," though? Speaking for myself, I'm
"affiliated" with any number of companies in one sense or another. For
example, I'm a longtime user and supporter of Redhat Linux, and
participate in a variety of forums, professional circles, and
initiatives sponsored by Redhat. They've never paid me a nickel, but
I'm interested and involved, nonetheless.
Am I "affiliated" with them?
Dude, why don't you try to address what we're talking about, instead of
a word. I didn't start using the word "affiliate."
<shrug>
The point is that your interlocutor might define "affiliated" as
"employed by" or "being paid by," while you might define it as "having
*any* sort of relationship with." This would lead to a situation where
he could honestly claim "no affiliation" while you could claim that one
existed.
Unless we know what the parties mean by their terms, we can't possibly
make any conclusions at all.
I think he would definitely define it in a way so that what he said was
technically accurate. I'm saying that he at some point was talked to by
HPS to say good things about them. That's all. There might be no other
connection.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Giftzwerg
2005-05-17 17:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Giftzwerg
Unless we know what the parties mean by their terms, we can't possibly
make any conclusions at all.
I think he would definitely define it in a way so that what he said was
technically accurate. I'm saying that he at some point was talked to by
HPS to say good things about them. That's all. There might be no other
connection.
What's your evidence for this, though? That he said something nice
about them?

That's almost a self-fulfilling argument.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report
that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay,
and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked
by the article."
- Reuters

"Fucking charming, this. The Religion of Peace(TM) actually
*murders* people over some lies that the leftist antiAmerican
press prints. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
- Giftzwerg

"
Epi
2005-05-17 17:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
Post by Giftzwerg
Unless we know what the parties mean by their terms, we can't possibly
make any conclusions at all.
I think he would definitely define it in a way so that what he said was
technically accurate. I'm saying that he at some point was talked to by
HPS to say good things about them. That's all. There might be no other
connection.
What's your evidence for this, though? That he said something nice
about them?
That's almost a self-fulfilling argument.
I never said I had any evidence. In fact, I have said more than once
that I had none. I have always put it as my judgement. I don't see
anything self-fulfilling about this. Am I supposed to go through life
making no judgements unless there is no room for doubt?
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Giftzwerg
2005-05-17 18:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Epi
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
I think he would definitely define it in a way so that what he said was
technically accurate. I'm saying that he at some point was talked to by
HPS to say good things about them. That's all. There might be no other
connection.
What's your evidence for this, though? That he said something nice
about them?
That's almost a self-fulfilling argument.
I never said I had any evidence. In fact, I have said more than once
that I had none. I have always put it as my judgement.
Based on what? The fact that he claims he's *not* affiliated with HPS?

Using this "logic," *I'm* an HPS lickspittle.
Post by Epi
I don't see
anything self-fulfilling about this. Am I supposed to go through life
making no judgements unless there is no room for doubt?
One would hope that you'd check-fire on an accusation that someone is a
corporate shill until you had something better than a vague inkling that
... what? You found something "fishy" in something clearly intended to
point out that Mr. Cox had nothing to do with HPS?
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report
that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay,
and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked
by the article."
- Reuters

"Fucking charming, this. The Religion of Peace(TM) actually
*murders* people over some lies that the leftist antiAmerican
press prints. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
- Giftzwerg

"
Epi
2005-05-17 19:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
Post by Giftzwerg
Post by Epi
I think he would definitely define it in a way so that what he said was
technically accurate. I'm saying that he at some point was talked to by
HPS to say good things about them. That's all. There might be no other
connection.
What's your evidence for this, though? That he said something nice
about them?
That's almost a self-fulfilling argument.
I never said I had any evidence. In fact, I have said more than once
that I had none. I have always put it as my judgement.
Based on what? The fact that he claims he's *not* affiliated with HPS?
Using this "logic," *I'm* an HPS lickspittle.
Post by Epi
I don't see
anything self-fulfilling about this. Am I supposed to go through life
making no judgements unless there is no room for doubt?
One would hope that you'd check-fire on an accusation that someone is a
corporate shill until you had something better than a vague inkling that
... what? You found something "fishy" in something clearly intended to
point out that Mr. Cox had nothing to do with HPS?
It was the whole post I found "fishy," not just one part. I used that
word in the first place. I've been totally upfront about not having any
evidence, and this just being my judgement. After that, people can make
their own minds up.

I think part of the problem here is that I tend to think of this group,
and others, in a more casual, conversational way. Maybe anyone reading
my posts should keep that in mind.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
Mike Cox
2005-05-17 18:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Conspiracy theories abound. While I mostly lurk, I have read the group for
longer than I have played HPS games (and have posted occasionally over the
years - some good, most far less so). If I was to be offended by your post,
I think I would be far to delicate for usenet posting. I do however use my
real name.

So to be clear, information or opinion I offer is my own. The affiliation
bit was an attempt to prempt the theory that any positive poster is on the
HPS company dole. However seems a bit more is needed: SS# 875-86-8959, CA
DL D96786291, Passport 6805-0854-9876. In the past 24 months I have posted
at alt.music.replacements, alt.music.pixies., rec.bicycles.racing, and
alt.games.wargames. If you are really bored read a bio at the bottom of
this page: http://www.schugwinery.com/family.htm (granted - i *could* have
just stolen this guy's identity, but he was a better pick than the Michigan
Attorney General, a kids author, or a newage musician artist)

So I will be happy to return to lurk mode until I think I have something
useful to offer (which is all said, not that often).

Mike

BTW - Eddy - I would say that as a playtester you are affiliated with Matrix
since I would assume that you will get published credit in the game
somewhere. Given a choice of reviews of COTA (sic) from you or Giftz, I
would put more weight in Giftz. Since they will both likely be positive, it
really won't matter much.
Giftzwerg
2005-05-17 18:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Cox
So to be clear, information or opinion I offer is my own. The affiliation
bit was an attempt to prempt the theory that any positive poster is on the
HPS company dole. However seems a bit more is needed: SS# 875-86-8959, CA
DL D96786291, Passport 6805-0854-9876. In the past 24 months I have posted
at alt.music.replacements, alt.music.pixies., rec.bicycles.racing, and
alt.games.wargames. If you are really bored read a bio at the bottom of
this page: http://www.schugwinery.com/family.htm (granted - i *could* have
just stolen this guy's identity, but he was a better pick than the Michigan
Attorney General, a kids author, or a newage musician artist)
"Mike Cox" is such a high-school semantic trap, though. Everyone knows
the apocryphal story of the poor teenage girl who, reading the daily
announcements over the school intercom, is given this item:

"The football team would like to thank Mike Hunt for services rendered
to dozens of team members after Friday's game."

Even "South Park" had a riff on this.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report
that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay,
and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked
by the article."
- Reuters

"Fucking charming, this. The Religion of Peace(TM) actually
*murders* people over some lies that the leftist antiAmerican
press prints. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
- Giftzwerg

"
John Smith
2005-05-20 13:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
"Mike Cox" is such a high-school semantic trap, though. Everyone knows
the apocryphal story of the poor teenage girl who, reading the daily
"The football team would like to thank Mike Hunt for services rendered
to dozens of team members after Friday's game."
Even "South Park" had a riff on this.
And let's not forget the legendary M1ke Hunt, talented writer of smut
humor (or should that be humorous smut?).

John

Epi
2005-05-17 19:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Cox
Conspiracy theories abound. While I mostly lurk, I have read the group for
longer than I have played HPS games (and have posted occasionally over the
years - some good, most far less so). If I was to be offended by your post,
I think I would be far to delicate for usenet posting. I do however use my
real name.
So to be clear, information or opinion I offer is my own. The affiliation
bit was an attempt to prempt the theory that any positive poster is on the
HPS company dole. However seems a bit more is needed: SS# 875-86-8959, CA
DL D96786291, Passport 6805-0854-9876. In the past 24 months I have posted
at alt.music.replacements, alt.music.pixies., rec.bicycles.racing, and
alt.games.wargames. If you are really bored read a bio at the bottom of
this page: http://www.schugwinery.com/family.htm (granted - i *could* have
just stolen this guy's identity, but he was a better pick than the Michigan
Attorney General, a kids author, or a newage musician artist)
So I will be happy to return to lurk mode until I think I have something
useful to offer (which is all said, not that often).
Mike
BTW - Eddy - I would say that as a playtester you are affiliated with Matrix
since I would assume that you will get published credit in the game
somewhere. Given a choice of reviews of COTA (sic) from you or Giftz, I
would put more weight in Giftz. Since they will both likely be positive, it
really won't matter much.
As I said before, I have no proof of anything. This is just how I see
it.

I'm not going to look up your information. I'm really not that into it.
--
Epi

------------
Imagine that there is clothing that can be seen
through by anyone wearing some special glasses.
It was all on the up-and-up. People who bought
the clothing knew what it was. Someone could be
walking the downtown of some major metropolis fully
nude to anyone wearing the glasses, but they would
seem fully clothed to everyone else.
How would the law view this?
------------
http://www.curlesneck.com
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-17 20:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Cox
BTW - Eddy - I would say that as a playtester you are affiliated with Matrix
since I would assume that you will get published credit in the game
somewhere.
Not me, but my dog will be - long story :)
Post by Mike Cox
Given a choice of reviews of COTA (sic) from you or Giftz, I
would put more weight in Giftz. Since they will both likely be positive, it
really won't matter much.
I won't do a review, but I've got something special planned which I
hope will be received well ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Mike Cox
2005-05-17 21:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
I won't do a review, but I've got something special planned which I
hope will be received well ...
Well looking forward to it. (The game and your teaser ..)
Dan
2005-05-20 12:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Hope its the "guide to creating scenarios" that you've written about
elsewhere... I'll be very interested in that!

Dan (Rooster)
e***@hotmail.com
2005-05-20 12:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan
Hope its the "guide to creating scenarios" that you've written about
elsewhere... I'll be very interested in that!
Nope, but I will finish that one once COTA goes gold and things start
to slowdown for the beta-testers - current priority is testing the
brand-new build - looking good, some issues but only a single crash
reported on an easily reproducable error.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
Glenn Saunders
2005-05-17 00:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
If someone "affiliated" (what a word !) with HPS cares to keep us up to
date with what's going on over there I personally would be very happy.
Glenn Saunders used to post here but I think I've scared him away
[which was obviously just a ruse to get me some street credibility in
here as I'm the company shill - remember]
You give yourself too much credit Eddy.

I just found over time that I nothing that I could add to the discussion
here. When I have something to say, usually someone finds it elsewhere on a
forum and posts it for me. Works quite well really and personally keeps me
very happy.

Glenn Saunders
Eddy Sterckx
2005-05-14 17:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giftzwerg
I'm sorry, but there are a few too many sausages coming out of the
machine on a continuous basis
Apparantly the folks at HPS have lost count of the amount of sausages
too :

Wagram was the 3rd installment in the Napoleonic series (after the
Russian Campaign and Eckmuhl) and it's mentioned as such at the website

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/NapBat/Wagram/wagram.html

Now they've released Waterloo and they've again called it the 3rd
installment :)

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/NapBat/waterloo/waterloo.html

Now, with my weird sense of humour *that's* what I call funny (at least
the guys of Friday the 13th Part xxx didn't mess up the numbering)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
s***@hotmail.com
2005-05-16 12:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Whitfield
OK, so I read elsewhere that this new Tiller HPS game is not just PzC at a
different scale, but completely new code and AI routines written from the
ground up. It supposedly plays much faster than PzC.
<snip>

FWIW, the game start-up lists a second gentleman as "AI Programmer"
(apologies--I forgot his name, and don't have the game handy). This is
the first time I can recall seeing a second programmer (versus
"designer") given credit on a John Tiller game?

Can't actually comment on the quality of the AI, as I've only played
one turn of the tutorial.
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