Discussion:
Thomas Mallon's review of Vincent Bugliosi's "Reclaimimg History"
(too old to reply)
David Von Pein
2007-05-02 00:27:54 UTC
Permalink
EXCERPTS OF A PRE-RELEASE REVIEW FOR VINCENT BUGLIOSI'S JFK BOOK,
"RECLAIMING HISTORY";

APPEARING IN "THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY" (June 2007 Issue);

REVIEW WRITTEN BY:
THOMAS MALLON (Author of "Mrs. Paine's Garage")

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200706/mallon-JFK

===================================

"The most exhaustive book yet written about the Kennedy assassination
should lay the conspiracy theories to rest once and for all-but it
won't."

===================================

"Vincent Bugliosi, the assistant district attorney who put Charles
Manson away and later produced the most merciless book on O.J. Simpson
('Outrage'), has in one way or another been working on 'Reclaiming
History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy' for 21 years,
ever since he acted as the prosecutor in an elaborate mock trial of
Oswald that was filmed in London and included Ruth Paine among its
"witnesses." Bugliosi got a conviction and never really left the case.

The result is a text far larger and heavier than any that Oswald may
have handled in the hours before he pointed his gun out a sixth-floor
window of the book depository. Indeed, 'Reclaiming History', whose
first draft was handwritten on legal pads, is longer than the Warren
Report, William Manchester's 'The Death of a President', and Gerald
Posner's 'Case Closed'-combined.

After putting the book's two sets of footnotes (which run 1,128 pages)
onto a CD-ROM, the publisher, W. W. Norton, managed to get the
principal 1,664 densely typeset pages into a single volume, no doubt
by calling on the same compressive binding skills that allow the
company to produce its massive well-known literary anthologies.

'Reclaiming History' is a magnificent and, in many ways, appalling
achievement, a work that, for all the author's liveliness and
pugnacity, is destined to be more referenced than read. Bugliosi
insists that, in the face of America's widespread and misplaced belief
in the existence of a conspiracy against JFK's life, "overkill in this
book is historically necessary."

This undue elaboration includes, one supposes, the work's primer on
the civil-rights movement (as context for Kennedy's own activity in
that realm); its long history of the Mafia that Jack Ruby was not part
of; nine pages on the Bay of Pigs invasion that did not motivate Fidel
Castro to kill Kennedy; and four paragraphs on the oil-depletion
allowance, whose reduction, unsought by Kennedy, did not drive the
Texas oilman H. L. Hunt to murder the president.

If there was no second gunman, there was, Bugliosi proves, a second
soda machine in the book depository, which undermines Oswald's claim
of having gone, minutes after the assassination, from the first floor
to the second in search of a bottle of pop. (Moreover, his preferred
brand, Dr. Pepper, was in the first-floor machine, not the second.)

Bugliosi also corrects one account claiming that in 1969, it took a
New Orleans jury only 45 minutes to acquit Clay Shaw, the man Jim
Garrison framed for Kennedy's murder. (It took the jury 54 minutes.)
And Bugliosi writes that my own book {"Mrs. Paine's Garage"}, while
correctly assessing a piece of his strategy in the London mock trial,
has him "beaming with delight" over Paine's testimony, whereas in fact
he responded with only "a measured smile."

Bugliosi has a confidence that makes Schwarzenegger, or Popeye, seem
diffident. He finds that "plain incompetence ... from the highest levels
on down, is endemic in our society," and he takes up arms against the
"pure myth" that one cannot prove a negative. "I am never elliptical
and always state the obvious," he declares, not without charm.

He has great hopes for "the stature of this book," which would derive
chiefly from its ability "to turn the percentages around in the
debate," a reversal that would leave 75 percent of Americans believing
Oswald acted on his own and only 19 percent thinking there was a
conspiracy to kill Kennedy. "My only master and my only mistress are
the facts and objectivity," Bugliosi declares, as if once more being
sworn in at the DA's office in Los Angeles.

In at least one way, he's up against both sides, CT and LN,
simultaneously. When Gerald Posner published 'Case Closed' in 1993-two
years after belief in a Kennedy-assassination conspiracy had its
widest and wildest dissemination with the release of Oliver Stone's
'JFK'-the book received a tremendously positive response, at least in
the mainstream media.

It may not have shifted those percentages, but its argument that
Oswald acted alone-of which the author became convinced only midway
through his labors-had a kind of weird freshness, given that the
Warren Report, for most of the 30 years since its appearance, had
attracted fewer defenders than the tax code. So, isn't Bugliosi
writing 'Case Still Closed', however many steroids he may have pumped
into the original orthodoxy?

Not at all, he argues. For starters, one needs a law-enforcement
background, not just Posner's lawyerly one, to make sense of
everything. Posner may have accomplished a few things-such as helping
to knock down the actuarially risible belief that there have been a
hundred or so "mysterious deaths" among people who supposedly knew too
much-but by Bugliosi's lights, Posner's methods are sometimes as
slippery as the CTs'. He accuses his LN predecessor of distortion and
credit-grabbing, especially when it comes to rehabilitating the single-
bullet theory (Bugliosi prefers calling it a "fact").

In a passage that reads like a memo to his own publisher, arguing for
the novelty of what he's doing, Bugliosi writes that his is "the first
anti-conspiracy 'book'," since all Posner's does is take an "anti-
conspiracy 'position'," devoting a mere "8 percent" of its measly 607
pages to knocking down conspiracist notions.

There's no question that Bugliosi succeeds in scorching the CT terrain
with ferocious, even definitive, plausibility. He also, by the time
his admirable 2,792 pages are through, drowns himself in a kind of
ghastly historical irony.

Before he can begin dispatching the CTs' frauds and follies, Bugliosi
must deal with Lee Harvey Oswald himself, who remains a ghost in even
the more fantastic machines of the conspiracists. Across 275 pages of
biography, and another 316 of narrative devoted to the climactic "Four
Days in November," Bugliosi's Oswald, for all his deprivations and
dyslexia, emerges as an intelligent, ill-humored, and remarkably
strong-willed young man, one who lapped up ideology and had delusions
of attaining power but was otherwise lacking in ordinary appetites "or
any of the myriad personal characteristics or eccentricities that are
so very human."

Oswald spent his childhood tagging along on the aggrieved
peregrinations of his mother, Marguerite, who would one day take
offense when her son was denied burial in Arlington National Cemetery.
But Bugliosi's sympathies, which can be surprisingly tender and
thoughtful, extend even to her and to the attempts she made to provide
for her sons in a world she believed was dead set against her.
Marguerite can, in fact, be viewed as the mother not only of Oswald
but of CTs everywhere.

The author gives proper centrality both to Oswald's near-success in
killing the far-right-wing General Edwin Walker in the spring of 1963-
an assault much more carefully planned than Oswald's strike against
Kennedy-and to his humiliating rebuff, that September in Mexico City,
by the Soviet Embassy and the Cuban consulate, when he tried to secure
a visa for travel to Havana. In the weeks before the assassination, he
was a man running out of flamboyant gestures.

Bugliosi says that he doesn't read fiction, but he favors what might
be called a novelist's view of Oswald over any unified prosecutorial
theory of the case and perpetrator.

The same Oswald who played with his children and Paine's after
rewrapping his rifle the night before the assassination would 18 hours
later fire an extra shot into the head of Officer Tippit, who had
already fallen helpless to the pavement; the same Oswald who killed
the leader of the free world could complain a day later about the
denial of his "hygienic rights" (he wanted a shower).

These were the "personal characteristics or eccentricities" that made
him "so very human," and Bugliosi, to his credit, is never rattled or
deterred by their violent juxtaposition.

Bugliosi notes that incompetence is "so very common in life," so it's
not surprising that he finds some "investigative sloppiness" to have
occurred even in an inquiry headed by a chief justice of the United
States. But occasional clumsiness-amid far more exhaustiveness and
skill-does not equal cover-up (the usual CT charge) by the Warren
Commission, whose august members shrank from fighting back when their
report came under attack.

Bugliosi also analyzes Kennedy's much-flawed autopsy and finds that
its "main conclusion" still stands. He even praises the Dallas police
who, but for the matter of allowing Oswald to be killed, succeeded in
swiftly compiling a mass of evidence against him. Captain Will Fritz,
who'd once helped hunt down Bonnie and Clyde and who conducted much of
Oswald's interrogation, emerges as a kind of low-key hero.

Toward the assassination's host of investigators, Bugliosi displays a
forbearance of human frailty and simple mistakes. What he doesn't
abide are lapses in logic, against which he displays a prosecutor's
natural preference for cross-examination over direct.

Once or twice his own logic flags, and he explains away some
exculpatory-seeming fact as part of Oswald's attempt to construct an
alibi; but much more typically, for dozens-no, hundreds-of pages at a
time, he exhilarates the reader with rat-a-tat annihilations of
others' false premises and shaky inferences.

He makes clear, for instance, that Kennedy's Parkland doctors, whose
memories of their work on the president are much loved by many CTs,
are bad witnesses; on November 22, 1963, they were making a futile
attempt to resuscitate the president, not to do ballistic analysis.
(What's more, they were largely young and inexperienced, because most
of their senior colleagues were in Galveston at a medical conference.)

Similarly, and with all due respect, Governor Connally, who never
believed the single-bullet theory, was hardly in a position to be a
careful observer while that bullet was working its way through him.

And to take one more example: On Sunday morning, November 24, Oswald
helped delay his own transfer from the Dallas city lockup to the
county jail by requesting a different shirt, thereby giving Ruby time
to arrive at the police station and kill him-an unwitting consequence,
Bugliosi reasons, "unless Oswald was a party to the conspiracy to
murder himself."

Worse than gaps in reasoning, however, are instances of bad faith,
which make Bugliosi livid. He will toss the bones of compliments to
any number of CTs-Walt Brown has a "good mind," Harold Weisberg is a
"decent rascal," and Penn Jones Jr. was "motivated by patriotism"-but
Lord help those he finds manipulating quotations, telling outright
lies, or depending on portions of the Warren Report when they're
otherwise trashing it.

Oliver Stone, always the ne plus ultra of disingenuousness, is by
Bugliosi's reckoning guilty of a "cultural crime" committed through a
thousand manipulations, among them the use of a smoke machine to
generate a puff of rifle smoke from the Grassy Knoll that 'JFK'
presents as being visible to people in Dealey Plaza.

In the course of all his refutations, Bugliosi frequently writes as if
he were delivering the world's longest jury summation. He asks the
"folks" who are reading to "please get this," or to sit tight and
"wait awhile" for an important point he's making.

He eventually runs out of sarcastic formulations for what he's up
against-the "room temperature" IQs required to believe stuff that's as
crazy as the idea that "alligators can do the polka"-but in the end it
is the weight of Bugliosi's analysis, not his rhetoric, that crushes a
long list of libels and suppositions: the sightings of a "Second
Oswald"; the "acoustic evidence" (from a police Dictabelt) that some
believe recorded four shots instead of the Warren Report's three; the
CT assertion that Kennedy's head immediately moved backward (it
didn't) when he was fatally shot from the front (he wasn't).

These last matters are at least potentially fundamental. And yet, in
order to make this "the first anti-conspiracy 'book'," Bugliosi-who
writes that "any denial of Oswald's guilt is not worthy of serious
discussion"-spends a vast acreage of print debunking the fringiest and
most lunatic theories, marshaling facts to prove that Kennedy's corpse
wasn't altered ("the conspirators would have needed at least three
separate teams of plastic surgeons waiting in hiding"); that the
Zapruder film wasn't tampered with; that the president wasn't
accidentally shot from behind by a Secret Service agent; and that the
shiny "Badge Man," who in one photograph appears to be perched on the
Grassy Knoll, is probably a Coke bottle. (Not Dr. Pepper?)

All this disputation may add heft, but it's not likely to give
'Reclaiming History' the "stature" that Bugliosi seeks for it. Its
effect, peculiarly, is to magnify much of the nonsense on this subject
that has cluttered the public mind for more than 40 years.

The writing and preservation of history is no less replete with
paradox than history itself. James L. Swanson, author of the recent
book Manhunt, about the search for Lincoln's assassin, nicely argues
that the restored Ford's Theatre is ultimately more a monument to John
Wilkes Booth than to Abraham Lincoln. Similarly, in knocking down the
conspiracists' shantytown of constructs, Bugliosi has had to save the
village in order to destroy it, and his book, if it has the longevity
it deserves, will be a kind of eternal flame running on the very gases
it thought it had capped."

=============

[END REVIEW.]

=============

A very nice review by Mr. Mallon, IMO. The two portions I like the
best are:

1.) The information that Bugliosi reveals about there being a soda
machine (with Dr. Pepper availability) on the FIRST floor of the Book
Depository on the day of the assassination. This is something I had no
knowledge of whatsoever. I had thought that the ONLY soda machine in
the TSBD was on the second floor.

And I have no doubt that Vince has checked his facts regarding this
first-floor soda machine (and the fact that the first-floor machine--
not the one on the 2nd Floor--offered Oswald's preferred drink, Dr.
Pepper).

One of the main reasons I have no qualms about believing this
information is this motto of VB's:

"If there's one thing I take pride in, it's that I never, ever make a
charge without supporting it. You might not agree with me, but I
invariably offer an enormous amount of support for my position." --
VINCENT BUGLIOSI

2.) [Mallon On] -- "But Lord help those he {VB} finds manipulating
quotations, telling outright lies, or depending on portions of the
Warren Report when they're otherwise trashing it. Oliver Stone, always
the ne plus ultra of disingenuousness, is by Bugliosi's reckoning
guilty of a "cultural crime" committed through a thousand
manipulations, among them the use of a smoke machine to generate a
puff of rifle smoke from the Grassy Knoll that JFK presents as being
visible to people in Dealey Plaza." -- [/Mallon Off]

Hooray for Vincent T. Bugliosi here! That's just exactly the type of
Stone-bashing I was hoping for in "Reclaiming History". ....

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2fa93b6e293e5e96

I'm looking forward to reading the entire Stone-wrecking chapter,
which should have me smiling from ear to ear for days (or weeks).

Thank you, Mr. Mallon, for an excellent and well-written (and
objective) review of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of
President John F. Kennedy".

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0bcdfcf65f6cb26f
David Von Pein
2007-05-02 01:04:21 UTC
Permalink
In addition.......

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200705u/kennedy-assassination
Peter Fokes
2007-05-02 01:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
In addition.......
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200705u/kennedy-assassination
Doesn't strike me as a book one can read in a single sitting, or
perhaps even in the time allotted when one borrows a book from the
library!

I hope it has a thorough index. I wouldn't be surprised if the book
is often used as a "reference work" but seldom read all the way
through. Similar to the WC report itself.

I hope the print is not too small. It surely will weigh a ton on one's
lap if reading in bed.

Will there be a paperback edition?

I'm considering cancelling my order and waiting for the paperback
edition simply because it will be easier to hold. I don't want to nod
off and have the book cut off circulation to my legs, LOL.

Ah, decisions decisions.

I did want to get the First Season of Diagnosis Murder starring Dick
Van Dyke ....

PF
David Von Pein
2007-05-02 02:00:24 UTC
Permalink
"Doesn't strike me as a book one can read in a single sitting, or
perhaps even in the time allotted when one borrows a book from the
library!" <<<

You're right about this, of course. No way you can read it in one sitting.
I doubt even that Harriet Klausner (Amazon.com's #1 ranked reviewer, who
posts reviews of 10 or more books PER DAY at Amazon!), could read VB's
tome in a single sitting.
"I hope the print is not too small. It surely will weigh a ton on
one's lap if reading in bed." <<<

LOL. Good point.

But reading VB's tome in bed will be tough on a second level -- i.e., the
need to constantly reference the CD-ROM for endnotes and source notes. (I
assume, at any rate, that all footnotes and source info will be only
included on the CD-ROM; that's what I've read from at least 2 sources
anyway.)

And I, too, hope the print isn't ultra-tiny. The "densely typeset" comment
in Tom Mallon's review now tells me that even MORE CS&L from VB is on tap
in "RH" (enough acronyms to choke a horse there). ;)

I was kind of hoping for virtually the same type of "RH" type face and
book structure that Dale Myers employed in his first-class 1998 entry
"With Malice". It's a classy volume all the way.
"Will there be a paperback edition?" <<<
I've wondered that too. I have no knowledge of that at this moment.

I notice, however, that Mark Fuhrman's "A Simple Act Of Murder" is getting
a second printing and a re-release in softcover form in November 2007.
....

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Act-Murder-Mark-Fuhrman/dp/006072157X/ref=sr_1_2/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178069413&sr=8-2

And did you notice that the first edition of Fuhrman's book has gone into
the "Bargain Bin" at Amazon? Been there for a while now. ($7.99 US)
"I did want to get the First Season of Diagnosis Murder starring Dick
Van Dyke." <<<

You can always wait for that show to appear at Amazon...in their new
"Unbox Video" area. All episodes of "TDvDS" are currently there.....

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000O7V3XW

My review for that above page is pending. Amazon takes forever to post
stuff sometimes. I think it's an internal "conspiracy" against "LN"
reviewers! ;)
David Von Pein
2007-05-02 03:42:04 UTC
Permalink
QUESTION FOR THE WHOLE SITE.......

Was anyone here aware of the existence of a Dr. Pepper soda machine in
the Depository's first-floor lunch ("Domino") room on 11/22/63?
David Von Pein
2007-05-02 13:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Soda Pop Machine Follow-Up........

I'll go ahead and confirm/answer my own above-asked question re. a
first-floor soda machine in the TSBD.

Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor
lunchroom. So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on
11/22/63.

I don't think I've ever heard the common-sense argument made by Vince
Bugliosi being made by anyone else. I certainly didn't think of it.
I.E., Oswald's preferred beverage was available on the first floor;
therefore, why the need to go UPSTAIRS to the 2nd Floor to get a soft
drink there (which is what he told police at one point after his
arrest)?

And the Dr. Pepper machine was positively in working order on 11/22,
too. How do we know? Because Bonnie Ray Williams testified he bought a
Dr. Pepper from the "Dr. Pepper machine" just before he went up to the
sixth floor to eat his lunch. (The empty Dr. Pepper bottle was left by
Williams on the 6th Floor by Williams as well.)

I think some of the confusion surrounding the soda-pop machines comes
from the witness testimony given by the TSBD employees. Virtually all
of them testified that they went "up to the second floor" to buy their
soft drinks ("Cokes") on 11/22. Billy Lovelady said that he did
that...and he said he came back down to the first floor after getting
his "Coke".

Wesley Frazier testified in some detail about "soft drinks". But his
testimony, too, is rather murky about there being ANY pop machine on
the FIRST floor at all. In fact, to hear Frazier tell it, the
employees had to go to the SECOND-floor lunchroom to get "different
kinds of soft drinks".

But when searching through the witness testimony, I hit soda-pop
paydirt with the testimony of James Jarman. Jarman's WC testimony
verifies, beyond all doubt, that a "Dr. Pepper machine" was located on
the FIRST FLOOR of the Book Depository on the day of President
Kennedy's assassination. Let's have a look.....

Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.

Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.

Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Peter Fokes
2007-05-02 13:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
Soda Pop Machine Follow-Up........
I'll go ahead and confirm/answer my own above-asked question re. a
first-floor soda machine in the TSBD.
Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor
lunchroom. So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on
11/22/63.
Ok.

Oswald was in the habit of going to the second floor to ask for change
for the pop machine.

Geneva Hine noticed Oswald a few minutes after the assassination
walking through her office area on the second floor carrying a full
bottle of pop.
Post by David Von Pein
I don't think I've ever heard the common-sense argument made by Vince
Bugliosi being made by anyone else.
What argument?

I certainly didn't think of it.
Post by David Von Pein
I.E., Oswald's preferred beverage was available on the first floor;
therefore, why the need to go UPSTAIRS to the 2nd Floor to get a soft
drink there (which is what he told police at one point after his
arrest)?
What brand of pop was Oswald carrying? Was the bottle found?
Sometimes people drink a different beverage than their favorite
beverage.
Post by David Von Pein
And the Dr. Pepper machine was positively in working order on 11/22,
too. How do we know? Because Bonnie Ray Williams testified he bought a
Dr. Pepper from the "Dr. Pepper machine" just before he went up to the
sixth floor to eat his lunch. (The empty Dr. Pepper bottle was left by
Williams on the 6th Floor by Williams as well.)
Ok. Where was Oswald's empty? Was Oswald's empty found?
Post by David Von Pein
I think some of the confusion surrounding the soda-pop machines comes
from the witness testimony given by the TSBD employees. Virtually all
of them testified that they went "up to the second floor" to buy their
soft drinks ("Cokes") on 11/22. Billy Lovelady said that he did
that...and he said he came back down to the first floor after getting
his "Coke".
Oswald went up to the second floor almost every day to ask the girls
for change so he could buy a pop. Was there no one on the first floor
he could ask?
Post by David Von Pein
Wesley Frazier testified in some detail about "soft drinks". But his
testimony, too, is rather murky about there being ANY pop machine on
the FIRST floor at all. In fact, to hear Frazier tell it, the
employees had to go to the SECOND-floor lunchroom to get "different
kinds of soft drinks".
Could be? Do we know for sure?
Post by David Von Pein
But when searching through the witness testimony, I hit soda-pop
paydirt with the testimony of James Jarman. Jarman's WC testimony
verifies, beyond all doubt, that a "Dr. Pepper machine" was located on
the FIRST FLOOR of the Book Depository on the day of President
Kennedy's assassination. Let's have a look.....
So what? Was Oswald drinking a Dr. Pepper?
Post by David Von Pein
Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Jarman is not Oswald.

Could you flesh out this argument a little more.

Are you saying Oswald shot the President then ran down to the first
floor, got a pop and then ran back up to the second floor and stood by
the pop machine where he was seen by two people?


PF
Peter Fokes
2007-05-02 13:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by David Von Pein
Soda Pop Machine Follow-Up........
I'll go ahead and confirm/answer my own above-asked question re. a
first-floor soda machine in the TSBD.
Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor
lunchroom. So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on
11/22/63.
Ok.
Oswald was in the habit of going to the second floor to ask for change
for the pop machine.
Geneva Hine noticed Oswald a few minutes after the assassination
walking through her office area on the second floor carrying a full
bottle of pop.
Excuse me. Doing three things at once here .... It was Mrs. Reid:


Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming
in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk
several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot,
but maybe they didn't hit him."
He **mumbled** something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I
didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of
anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was
**very calm**. He had gotten a *coke* and was holding it in his hands
and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought
it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in
the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only
time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change [as
Geneva has already told us] and he already had his coke in his hand so
he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything
else.

Mr. BELIN. Was the coke full or empty?
Mrs. REID. It was full.
Mr. BELIN. It was full.

Excuse my error

PF
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by David Von Pein
I don't think I've ever heard the common-sense argument made by Vince
Bugliosi being made by anyone else.
What argument?
I certainly didn't think of it.
Post by David Von Pein
I.E., Oswald's preferred beverage was available on the first floor;
therefore, why the need to go UPSTAIRS to the 2nd Floor to get a soft
drink there (which is what he told police at one point after his
arrest)?
What brand of pop was Oswald carrying? Was the bottle found?
Sometimes people drink a different beverage than their favorite
beverage.
Post by David Von Pein
And the Dr. Pepper machine was positively in working order on 11/22,
too. How do we know? Because Bonnie Ray Williams testified he bought a
Dr. Pepper from the "Dr. Pepper machine" just before he went up to the
sixth floor to eat his lunch. (The empty Dr. Pepper bottle was left by
Williams on the 6th Floor by Williams as well.)
Ok. Where was Oswald's empty? Was Oswald's empty found?
Post by David Von Pein
I think some of the confusion surrounding the soda-pop machines comes
from the witness testimony given by the TSBD employees. Virtually all
of them testified that they went "up to the second floor" to buy their
soft drinks ("Cokes") on 11/22. Billy Lovelady said that he did
that...and he said he came back down to the first floor after getting
his "Coke".
Oswald went up to the second floor almost every day to ask the girls
for change so he could buy a pop. Was there no one on the first floor
he could ask?
Post by David Von Pein
Wesley Frazier testified in some detail about "soft drinks". But his
testimony, too, is rather murky about there being ANY pop machine on
the FIRST floor at all. In fact, to hear Frazier tell it, the
employees had to go to the SECOND-floor lunchroom to get "different
kinds of soft drinks".
Could be? Do we know for sure?
Post by David Von Pein
But when searching through the witness testimony, I hit soda-pop
paydirt with the testimony of James Jarman. Jarman's WC testimony
verifies, beyond all doubt, that a "Dr. Pepper machine" was located on
the FIRST FLOOR of the Book Depository on the day of President
Kennedy's assassination. Let's have a look.....
So what? Was Oswald drinking a Dr. Pepper?
Post by David Von Pein
Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Jarman is not Oswald.
Could you flesh out this argument a little more.
Are you saying Oswald shot the President then ran down to the first
floor, got a pop and then ran back up to the second floor and stood by
the pop machine where he was seen by two people?
PF
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-03 14:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
Soda Pop Machine Follow-Up........
I'll go ahead and confirm/answer my own above-asked question re. a
first-floor soda machine in the TSBD.
Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor
lunchroom. So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on
11/22/63.
Fun. Show me the evidence photo of the Dr. Pepper machine.
David Von Pein
2007-06-01 16:22:37 UTC
Permalink
By way of Vince Bugliosi's masterpiece, "Reclaiming History", I've
been directed to the forgotten-about Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st
Floor of the TSBD. Sure enough a picture exists of it, and Vince found
it...after he talked to Wes Frazier in 2004 to confirm from Wesley
that there was, indeed, a soft-drink machine on Floor #1, in the
northwest corner, near the back stairway.

Vince's book and source note led me to "Warren Commission Document
#CD496; Photo 7" (which apparently nobody has EVER looked at before; I
certainly hadn't). It's absolutely incredible how many different
documents and pictures there are connected to this case that I'm
guessing very people have ever seen. Mary Ferrell's site has every one
of them available online too.

The CD496 document comes from a kind of a "booklet/album" of FBI
photos of the TSBD. Fascinating, rarely-seen stuff in there too (like
this Dr. Pepper "find"). It's akin to "CE875", which is a similar type
of "album", only 875 is one put together by the Secret Service.

Here's a direct link to "CD496 (7)":

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12
Anthony Marsh
2007-06-02 03:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
By way of Vince Bugliosi's masterpiece, "Reclaiming History", I've
been directed to the forgotten-about Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st
Floor of the TSBD. Sure enough a picture exists of it, and Vince found
it...after he talked to Wes Frazier in 2004 to confirm from Wesley
that there was, indeed, a soft-drink machine on Floor #1, in the
northwest corner, near the back stairway.
Vince's book and source note led me to "Warren Commission Document
#CD496; Photo 7" (which apparently nobody has EVER looked at before; I
certainly hadn't). It's absolutely incredible how many different
documents and pictures there are connected to this case that I'm
guessing very people have ever seen. Mary Ferrell's site has every one
of them available online too.
Yes, as I have said thousands of times, there is a lot more to this case
than just the Warren Commission Report. So, should I now quibble with you
about how irrelevant your discovery is as you guys say about the
reinterment photos? Maybe the machine was out of Dr. Peppers that day.
Maybe that's what drove Oswald over the edge? ;]>
Post by David Von Pein
The CD496 document comes from a kind of a "booklet/album" of FBI
photos of the TSBD. Fascinating, rarely-seen stuff in there too (like
this Dr. Pepper "find"). It's akin to "CE875", which is a similar type
of "album", only 875 is one put together by the Secret Service.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12
David Von Pein
2007-06-02 05:36:15 UTC
Permalink
"Maybe the machine was out of Dr. Peppers that day." <<<
Nope. You can't go there either. Because we know Bonnie Ray Williams
purchased a Dr. Pepper FROM THAT MACHINE at noontime on 11/22 (unless
you want to quibble & kick that Williams got the very last one, and
there was none left for LHO at 12:31).

BTW, Bugliosi confirmed (via a call to Buell Frazier) that the 2nd-
Floor machine had ONLY COKE in it. Nothing else (per Frazier's memory
anyhow).

But nobody is saying (Vince nor myself, nor no doubt ANY other LNer)
that the "Dr. Pepper" discovery PROVES anything necessarily. But it
is, as Vince in wont to say (and correctly), just one more small piece
making up the "mosaic of guilt" leading toward one guy and only one
guy....i.e., the guy CTers love to love -- Lee H. Oswald.

Another interesting photo buried in "CD496" that I'd never seen before
is the one linked below, showing Frazier's 1953 Chevy sedan parked
where he parked it on 11/22/63, with the Depository Building looming
in the background.....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=51
James K. Olmstead
2007-06-02 19:27:37 UTC
Permalink
trivia point .....WBF sold that car for $15.00 afterwards. It is in a small
car collection and was a feature segment of Ripley's Believe it or Not.

jko
Post by David Von Pein
"Maybe the machine was out of Dr. Peppers that day." <<<
Nope. You can't go there either. Because we know Bonnie Ray Williams
purchased a Dr. Pepper FROM THAT MACHINE at noontime on 11/22 (unless
you want to quibble & kick that Williams got the very last one, and
there was none left for LHO at 12:31).
BTW, Bugliosi confirmed (via a call to Buell Frazier) that the 2nd-
Floor machine had ONLY COKE in it. Nothing else (per Frazier's memory
anyhow).
But nobody is saying (Vince nor myself, nor no doubt ANY other LNer)
that the "Dr. Pepper" discovery PROVES anything necessarily. But it
is, as Vince in wont to say (and correctly), just one more small piece
making up the "mosaic of guilt" leading toward one guy and only one
guy....i.e., the guy CTers love to love -- Lee H. Oswald.
Another interesting photo buried in "CD496" that I'd never seen before
is the one linked below, showing Frazier's 1953 Chevy sedan parked
where he parked it on 11/22/63, with the Depository Building looming
in the background.....
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=51
Anthony Marsh
2007-06-02 19:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Maybe the machine was out of Dr. Peppers that day." <<<
Nope. You can't go there either. Because we know Bonnie Ray Williams
purchased a Dr. Pepper FROM THAT MACHINE at noontime on 11/22 (unless
you want to quibble & kick that Williams got the very last one, and
there was none left for LHO at 12:31).
Jeez, you're such a smart guy that you figured that out all by yourself.
My only point is to quibble. So your theory should be that Bonnie Ray
Williams got the last Dr. Pepper and that pushed Oswald over the edge
and he wanted to get his rifle to kill Williams. After all, if Oswald is
crazy he doesn't need any national explanation for anything he does.
Post by David Von Pein
BTW, Bugliosi confirmed (via a call to Buell Frazier) that the 2nd-
Floor machine had ONLY COKE in it. Nothing else (per Frazier's memory
anyhow).
Again, do not rely on witnesses. No one independently confirmed that.
Post by David Von Pein
But nobody is saying (Vince nor myself, nor no doubt ANY other LNer)
that the "Dr. Pepper" discovery PROVES anything necessarily. But it
But he and you bring it up as if it is important.
Your hidden agenda is that Oswald had no excuse to be on the second
floor so therefore the only possible reason why he was on the second
floor is because he had just run down from the sixth floor.
Post by David Von Pein
is, as Vince in wont to say (and correctly), just one more small piece
making up the "mosaic of guilt" leading toward one guy and only one
guy....i.e., the guy CTers love to love -- Lee H. Oswald.
The problem is that you will take any tidbit and add it to your witches
brew of evidence pointing to guilt. He took off his wedding ring. So you
say ah ha, that proves that he intended to shoot the President. He left
on his Marine Corps ring so you say ah ha, that proves that he intended
to shoot the President. He put on socks, so you say ah ha, that proves
that he intended to shoot the President.
Post by David Von Pein
Another interesting photo buried in "CD496" that I'd never seen before
is the one linked below, showing Frazier's 1953 Chevy sedan parked
where he parked it on 11/22/63, with the Depository Building looming
in the background.....
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=51
And this proves Oswald's guilt how?
Let's try to make something conspiratorial out of this photo just for
fun. First, look at the way the car is park. Frazier was intentionally
hiding it behind that shed. Second, what the heck is that shed anyway
and why doesn't it show up on any maps? Maybe that was command central
for the assassination team. Third, why park so far away from the TSBD?
It looks like a couple of blocks. Various WC defender movies show the
car being parked much closer to the TSBD. Was that propaganda to absolve
Frazier?
RICLAND
2007-06-02 22:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
By way of Vince Bugliosi's masterpiece, "Reclaiming History", I've
been directed to the forgotten-about Dr. Pepper machine on the 1st
Floor of the TSBD. Sure enough a picture exists of it, and Vince found
it...after he talked to Wes Frazier in 2004 to confirm from Wesley
that there was, indeed, a soft-drink machine on Floor #1, in the
northwest corner, near the back stairway.
Vince's book and source note led me to "Warren Commission Document
#CD496; Photo 7" (which apparently nobody has EVER looked at before; I
certainly hadn't). It's absolutely incredible how many different
documents and pictures there are connected to this case that I'm
guessing very people have ever seen. Mary Ferrell's site has every one
of them available online too.
The CD496 document comes from a kind of a "booklet/album" of FBI
photos of the TSBD. Fascinating, rarely-seen stuff in there too (like
this Dr. Pepper "find"). It's akin to "CE875", which is a similar type
of "album", only 875 is one put together by the Secret Service.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12
Don't let me be the first to tell you this, David, but it seems both Tom
Mallon and you have missed something very significant: the book is an
anthology, not Vinny's writing.

More on this soon.

ricland
--
Reclaiming History -- The Rebuttals
The Rebuttals to Bugliosi's JFK Assassination Book
http://jfkhit.com
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-02 13:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
QUESTION FOR THE WHOLE SITE.......
Was anyone here aware of the existence of a Dr. Pepper soda machine in
the Depository's first-floor lunch ("Domino") room on 11/22/63?
I have asked questions like that and never gotten a good answer. We know
about the Coke machine and some people say it was stocked with Dr.
Pepper as if Dr. Pepper is a Coke owned brand. I don't know if that is
true. I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD. One wacky WC
defender had a theory that the reason why Oswald decided to shoot the
President was that he had gone to the machine to purchase his usual Dr.
Pepper and it was out of Dr. Pepper so he had to buy a Coke. This so
incensed him that he decided to shoot the President. It's known as the
Cola defense.
Peter Fokes
2007-05-02 14:02:39 UTC
Permalink
On 2 May 2007 09:58:19 -0400, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David Von Pein
QUESTION FOR THE WHOLE SITE.......
Was anyone here aware of the existence of a Dr. Pepper soda machine in
the Depository's first-floor lunch ("Domino") room on 11/22/63?
I have asked questions like that and never gotten a good answer. We know
about the Coke machine and some people say it was stocked with Dr.
Pepper as if Dr. Pepper is a Coke owned brand. I don't know if that is
true. I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD. One wacky WC
defender had a theory that the reason why Oswald decided to shoot the
President was that he had gone to the machine to purchase his usual Dr.
Pepper and it was out of Dr. Pepper so he had to buy a Coke. This so
incensed him that he decided to shoot the President. It's known as the
Cola defense.
LN author Jim Moore discusses this matter. I think Moore believed
Oswald had a Dr. Pepper. Don't have time to look it up in his book
now.


PF
tomnln
2007-05-02 19:24:58 UTC
Permalink
O DO have the time to look it up;

David quotes Jim Moore's Lies;

Page 52 of Moore's book quotes ONE (1) of Bakers accounts.
Moore OMITS Baker's other THREE (3) accounts offered by Baker.

NOT wanting to point out that Baker gave FOUR (4) Different accounts of his
encounter with Oswald.

Proving that Baker LIED a minimum of 3 out of four times.>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm

NOT to mention Many other Lies/Ommissions in Moore's book.

On page 53 of Moore's book "Conspiracy of One", Moore states that " AFTER
the encounter with Baker and Truly
Oswald bought a coke."... "Oswald habitually drank Dr. Perrpr(58)"
Page 55 shows citations of footnotes (58) (page 157 of WCR. Page 157 of
WCR says NOTHING of Oswald's choice of soft drink. Page alludes to Oswald's
Bus ride with McWatters.

IN EFFECT;
Moore Lies & David Swears to it.
Post by Peter Fokes
On 2 May 2007 09:58:19 -0400, Anthony Marsh
Post by Anthony Marsh
Post by David Von Pein
QUESTION FOR THE WHOLE SITE.......
Was anyone here aware of the existence of a Dr. Pepper soda machine in
the Depository's first-floor lunch ("Domino") room on 11/22/63?
I have asked questions like that and never gotten a good answer. We know
about the Coke machine and some people say it was stocked with Dr.
Pepper as if Dr. Pepper is a Coke owned brand. I don't know if that is
true. I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD. One wacky WC
defender had a theory that the reason why Oswald decided to shoot the
President was that he had gone to the machine to purchase his usual Dr.
Pepper and it was out of Dr. Pepper so he had to buy a Coke. This so
incensed him that he decided to shoot the President. It's known as the
Cola defense.
LN author Jim Moore discusses this matter. I think Moore believed
Oswald had a Dr. Pepper. Don't have time to look it up in his book
now.
PF
David Von Pein
2007-05-03 04:22:18 UTC
Permalink
"IN EFFECT; Moore Lies & David Swears to it." <<<
Yeah, that must be why I gave Jim Moore's book a wishy-washy (i.e.,
somewhat negative) rating when I reviewed it in December 2006...right Tom?
....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000HMSIBE&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=ROEPV7B8GNG96&displayType=ReviewDetail

BTW, I never once mentioned Moore's "Dr. Pepper vs. Coke" theory in my
review of his book. (And that's because I think that theory is kinda
silly; so I simply ignored Moore's guesswork regarding that particular
soft-drink point.)

And I also never once mentioned the name "Marrion Baker" in my review
either. So, the two things that Tom R. specifically mentions above in his
post are two things that I NEVER even bring up in my review. And yet he
berates me for something I never said (or even inferred).

~shrugs~


BTW #2, Jim Moore (although he definitely has the bottom-line conclusion
of "Oswald Did It Alone" correct in his 1990 book "Conspiracy Of One") is
going to look all the sillier regarding his claim that LHO's nervousness
made him purchase a Coke by mistake (instead of a Dr. Pepper) once Mr.
Bugliosi's book streets.

This due to the revelation that the Dr. Pepper machine wasn't even ON the
second floor--it was on the first floor. (Unless Moore, or somebody, can
prove that Dr. Pepper was available in BOTH soft-drink machines on
11/22/63.)
p***@AOL.COM
2007-05-03 14:36:44 UTC
Permalink
If this Dr. Pepper argument is symptomatic of Bugliosi's book... my,
what a disappointment! Oswald went up to the second floor...perhaps
he felt like a coke... so what? Whether or not he normally drank Dr.
Pepper or Coke, on this day he went upstairs and purchased a Coke.. He
was seen drinking this Coke... So??? Bonnie Ray Williams normally
ate in the domino room...on this day he went up to the sixth
floor...where he didn't see Oswald. Anyone,including VB, who can
attach more significance to Oswald's drinking Coke over Dr. Pepper
than to Williams' NOT seeing Oswald on the sixth floor, is cognitively
challenged.
Post by David Von Pein
"IN EFFECT; Moore Lies & David Swears to it." <<<
Yeah, that must be why I gave Jim Moore's book a wishy-washy (i.e.,
somewhat negative) rating when I reviewed it in December 2006...right Tom?
....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
BTW, I never once mentioned Moore's "Dr. Pepper vs. Coke" theory in my
review of his book. (And that's because I think that theory is kinda
silly; so I simply ignored Moore's guesswork regarding that particular
soft-drink point.)
And I also never once mentioned the name "Marrion Baker" in my review
either. So, the two things that Tom R. specifically mentions above in his
post are two things that I NEVER even bring up in my review. And yet he
berates me for something I never said (or even inferred).
~shrugs~
BTW #2, Jim Moore (although he definitely has the bottom-line conclusion
of "Oswald Did It Alone" correct in his 1990 book "Conspiracy Of One") is
going to look all the sillier regarding his claim that LHO's nervousness
made him purchase a Coke by mistake (instead of a Dr. Pepper) once Mr.
Bugliosi's book streets.
This due to the revelation that the Dr. Pepper machine wasn't even ON the
second floor--it was on the first floor. (Unless Moore, or somebody, can
prove that Dr. Pepper was available in BOTH soft-drink machines on
11/22/63.)
David Von Pein
2007-05-04 04:54:17 UTC
Permalink
"On page 53 of Moore's book "Conspiracy of One", Moore states that "
AFTER the encounter with Baker and Truly Oswald bought a coke."...
"Oswald habitually drank Dr. Perrpr(58)" Page 55 shows citations of
footnotes (58) (page 157 of WCR. Page 157 of WCR says NOTHING of
Oswald's choice of soft drink. Page alludes to Oswald's Bus ride with
McWatters." <<<

Tom,

I've just checked on this...and (as usual) you are incorrect. Moore's
footnote ("58") is an "Ibid", which means it refers to the footnote
immediately preceding it...which refers to Jim Bishop's book "THE DAY
KENNEDY WAS SHOT" (which Moore loves tremendously and endorses many times
is his book).

So the "58" footnote indicates that Moore is referencing "Page 157" of
Bishop's book...not the WCR.

Moore refers to a different edition of Bishop's book than the hardcover
version I have, however. Because Page 183 (not 157) contains the
"invariably drank Dr. Pepper" remark by Bishop (although how Mr. Bishop
knows that Oswald "invariably" (i.e., always) drank Dr. Pepper is anyone's
guess).

Anyway, that's where you're mixed up, Tom. Start learning how to read
"Ibid" footnotes.
David Von Pein
2007-05-02 21:59:13 UTC
Permalink
"I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD." <<<
And I'm actually rather embarrassed that I, myself, couldn't figure
out something so EASY to figure out via the witness testimony of James
Jarman.

Jarman's testimony is crystal-clear regarding what floor the "Dr.
Pepper" machine (not "Coke") was on -- it was the FIRST FLOOR. (Unless
we want to believe the silly notion that Jarman ate his sandwich and
drank his soda pop on the FIRST floor (while "walking around" on that
floor)...then he went upstairs to the second floor to toss away his
trash and place the empty bottle in a case next to the soft-drink
machine that Jarman refers to specifically as a "Dr. Pepper machine".

That scenario, of course, is just goofy. Jarman was on the first floor
the whole time. Reviewing that testimony again proves it......

Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.

Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.

Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-03 04:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD." <<<
And I'm actually rather embarrassed that I, myself, couldn't figure
out something so EASY to figure out via the witness testimony of James
Jarman.
Give me a chance to understand your concern. Are you saying Oswald was on
the first floor getting his "drink" before the Baker/Truly encounter?

jko
Post by David Von Pein
Jarman's testimony is crystal-clear regarding what floor the "Dr.
Pepper" machine (not "Coke") was on -- it was the FIRST FLOOR. (Unless
we want to believe the silly notion that Jarman ate his sandwich and
drank his soda pop on the FIRST floor (while "walking around" on that
floor)...then he went upstairs to the second floor to toss away his
trash and place the empty bottle in a case next to the soft-drink
machine that Jarman refers to specifically as a "Dr. Pepper machine".
That scenario, of course, is just goofy. Jarman was on the first floor
the whole time. Reviewing that testimony again proves it......
Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Peter Fokes
2007-05-03 14:14:02 UTC
Permalink
On 3 May 2007 00:22:41 -0400, "James K. Olmstead"
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD." <<<
And I'm actually rather embarrassed that I, myself, couldn't figure
out something so EASY to figure out via the witness testimony of James
Jarman.
Give me a chance to understand your concern. Are you saying Oswald was on
the first floor getting his "drink" before the Baker/Truly encounter?
jko
Hi jko,

I asked the same question. Still waiting for reply.
Maybe I'm missing something ....

PF
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
Jarman's testimony is crystal-clear regarding what floor the "Dr.
Pepper" machine (not "Coke") was on -- it was the FIRST FLOOR. (Unless
we want to believe the silly notion that Jarman ate his sandwich and
drank his soda pop on the FIRST floor (while "walking around" on that
floor)...then he went upstairs to the second floor to toss away his
trash and place the empty bottle in a case next to the soft-drink
machine that Jarman refers to specifically as a "Dr. Pepper machine".
That scenario, of course, is just goofy. Jarman was on the first floor
the whole time. Reviewing that testimony again proves it......
Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
David Von Pein
2007-05-03 14:16:33 UTC
Permalink
"Are you saying Oswald was on the first floor getting his "drink" before the Baker/Truly encounter?" <<<
Come now, my good man. You should better than that.

I'm saying just EXACTLY what Vince Bugliosi will undoubtedly be saying
in his book....to wit:

1.) Lee Harvey Oswald was on the 6th Floor at 12:30 PM and he shot and
killed JFK (alone) from the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of
the building.

2.) Oswald then scurried down the back stairs after stashing his rifle
in the northwest corner (while wiping off as many fingerprints as he
could with his brown shirt, a shirt he likely was not wearing when he
pulled the trigger; and that's how the fairly-"fresh" brownish shirt
fibers could have embedded themselves onto the rifle, while Oswald was
wiping off prints as he went from the SN to the stairs).*

3.) Oswald peels off the stairs at Floor #2, and ducks into the
lunchroom. (It's possible he heard Baker & Truly coming up the stairs
from the first floor.)

4.) Baker & Truly encounter Oswald (with NO soft drink at all) in the
lunchroom. Baker's gun is shoved almost right up against LHO's belly
("almost touching" Oswald's body, per Roy Truly). Oswald says not a
word (which, if he's innocent, is mighty strange, IMO).

5.) Oswald, after his encounter with B&T, purchases a Coke from the
Coca-Cola machine on the second floor, and then works his way through
the 2nd-Floor offices. He mumbles something to Mrs. Robert A. Reid
after Reid says to LHO "the President's been shot". And again, there's
no surprised reaction at all by LHO. He doesn't ask, "What the heck
happened do you think? How could this have happened?".

He's totally unconcerned...and that's because he doesn't NEED to ask
questions, because HE himself knows what happened to JFK, because he
himself was responsible for causing it.

6.) Oswald, after his arrest, tells police (on at least one occasion)
that he had lunch with "Junior" on the first floor of the Depository
when the President was killed. And in elaborating on this "first-
floor" alibi, he says he went up to the second floor to get a Coke,
and then he encountered Baker & Truly (which he did not deny, and
obviously he knew he couldn't deny that meeting).

* = The "shirt" theory is mine, but I have a feeling VB might possibly
say something along those same lines as well; hence the reason why
witnesses saw Oswald in "light" clothing (in his white T-shirt only).
The brown shirt was probably by his feet in the Sniper's Nest when
Oswald was seen by witnesses. Baker testified that Oswald's brown
"jacket" (he thought the shirt resembled a "jacket") was "hanging
out"...i.e., untucked.

MARRION BAKER -- "I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I
was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention.
After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to
him, so I just turned and went on."

Now, since Jarman's and Williams' WC testimony verifies beyond any
doubt that there was a Dr. Pepper machine (in working order on 11/22)
on the FIRST floor, it begs the obvious question re. Oswald's alibi --
Why does he need to travel to the 2nd Floor for a soft drink when a
pop machine was right there on the first floor, which is where he said
he was when JFK was shot at 12:30?

I also have a feeling that Mr. Bugliosi has probably doubled (and
maybe tripled) his verification of the existence of that first-floor
soda machine too.

IOW, he hasn't JUST relied (as I have done) on the WC testimony of the
TSBD witnesses, esp. Jarman. Vince has probably talked with some of
those TSBD employees himself and asked them point-blank: Was there a
second soda machine in the TSBD when you worked there in Nov. 1963?
Peter Fokes
2007-05-03 14:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Are you saying Oswald was on the first floor getting his "drink" before the Baker/Truly encounter?" <<<
Come now, my good man. You should better than that.
He asked a simple question. Others have asked it too.

And now you provide a long-winded answer that adds absolutely nothing
new to the known story.

Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?

Methinks you've gotten yourself all excited for nothing.

Old news.

If Vince does have a point re: the Dr. Pepper story, it will
undoubtedly make more sense than your interpretation.

PF
David Von Pein
2007-05-04 04:57:18 UTC
Permalink
"Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?" <<<
Not THIS much, no. ....

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e30758bdd48593b8
David Von Pein
2007-05-04 05:09:48 UTC
Permalink
"Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?" <<<
Not THIS much, no. ....


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/99273e0516a90afe
Peter Fokes
2007-05-04 06:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?" <<<
Not THIS much, no. ....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/99273e0516a90afe
Do you want me to respond to you or do you just want to play silly
games?

Why bother posting a response to me on another newsgroup?
I don't read it. I don't post there. Folks, maybe if we read his post
together we can decipher if there is something of substance or a grain
of insight ....
Post by David Von Pein
"Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?" <<<
No context provided by David VP. Let me provide the real context.
David VP is all excited by a Dr. Pepper soda machine on the first
floor, but he hasn't told us why. Oswald was seen with a Coke on the
second floor within a couple of minutes of the assassination. Several
other posters have also asked David VP to explain himself. As pjspeare
noted on this newsgroup: "Anyone, including VB, who can
attach more significance to Oswald's drinking Coke over Dr. Pepper
than to Williams' NOT seeing Oswald on the sixth floor, is cognitively
challenged." So far David VP has been tap dancing and has dodged
giving us any sensible answer, and has now resorted to posting a
response to me on the nuthouse ... a newsgroup I neither read nor post
to (he was kind enough to provide us the link here... not sure why he
avoided sending us the post though...)

So what did David VP say about my comment? My replies to him in square
brackets []

Read on:

DVP NOW SAYS:

At the exact moment a President was passing by my front doorstep, you
mean?

[Nope. I was referring to the moment Oswald was seen on the second
floor with a pop.]

Did I ever crave one so badly at such a significant time in
Dealey Plaza history that I would choose that precise moment when the
President was driving by to go to the second floor to purchase a
beverage (even when a drink machine, with my favorite flavor, was
handier on the first floor)?

[I have no idea what David VP craves .. now or then .. besides silly
misrepresentations of the meaning of my comment. Oswald was witnessed
by Truly and Baker on the second floor. I assume he arrived at that
location AFTER rather than at the precise moment the President was
driving by as David VP suggests.]

Is that what you mean, Peter?

[Not a chance. Readers, be alert to the fact that the
misinterpretation of what other people think forms large dollops of
most of David VP's posts]

Under those above-defined conditions,

[Lol. Then you are arguing with yourself since your conditions have
nothing to do with my comment.]

my answer would have to
be....No. I'm afraid I've never craved a Coca-Cola quite THAT much.
(But, then again, I'm more of a Pepsi-Cola kind of guy myself.) ;)


[Good for you. Now I know why you posted this on the nuthouse. You
must too. You must have realized it is better to try and make "some"
sense if you are going to post something on the moderated newsgroup.]

Now, we are still waiting David VP

What gives?



PF
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-04 15:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by David Von Pein
"Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?" <<<
Not THIS much, no. ....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/99273e0516a90afe
Do you want me to respond to you or do you just want to play silly
games?
Why bother posting a response to me on another newsgroup?
I don't read it. I don't post there. Folks, maybe if we read his post
together we can decipher if there is something of substance or a grain
of insight ....
Post by David Von Pein
"Did you ever crave a Coke rather than a Dr. Pepper?" <<<
No context provided by David VP. Let me provide the real context.
David VP is all excited by a Dr. Pepper soda machine on the first
floor, but he hasn't told us why. Oswald was seen with a Coke on the
second floor within a couple of minutes of the assassination. Several
other posters have also asked David VP to explain himself. As pjspeare
noted on this newsgroup: "Anyone, including VB, who can
attach more significance to Oswald's drinking Coke over Dr. Pepper
than to Williams' NOT seeing Oswald on the sixth floor, is cognitively
challenged." So far David VP has been tap dancing and has dodged
giving us any sensible answer, and has now resorted to posting a
response to me on the nuthouse ... a newsgroup I neither read nor post
to (he was kind enough to provide us the link here... not sure why he
avoided sending us the post though...)
So what did David VP say about my comment? My replies to him in square
brackets []
Give him a break, will ya? He is trying to invent a conspiracy theory
and he is new to this. I guess his theory is that Oswald usually bought
Dr. Pepper, but on only that day there were none left so he had to buy a
Coke. This so enraged Oswald that he went nuts and decided to shoot the
President.
Post by Peter Fokes
At the exact moment a President was passing by my front doorstep, you
mean?
[Nope. I was referring to the moment Oswald was seen on the second
floor with a pop.]
Did I ever crave one so badly at such a significant time in
Dealey Plaza history that I would choose that precise moment when the
President was driving by to go to the second floor to purchase a
beverage (even when a drink machine, with my favorite flavor, was
handier on the first floor)?
[I have no idea what David VP craves .. now or then .. besides silly
misrepresentations of the meaning of my comment. Oswald was witnessed
by Truly and Baker on the second floor. I assume he arrived at that
location AFTER rather than at the precise moment the President was
driving by as David VP suggests.]
Is that what you mean, Peter?
[Not a chance. Readers, be alert to the fact that the
misinterpretation of what other people think forms large dollops of
most of David VP's posts]
Under those above-defined conditions,
[Lol. Then you are arguing with yourself since your conditions have
nothing to do with my comment.]
my answer would have to
be....No. I'm afraid I've never craved a Coca-Cola quite THAT much.
(But, then again, I'm more of a Pepsi-Cola kind of guy myself.) ;)
[Good for you. Now I know why you posted this on the nuthouse. You
must too. You must have realized it is better to try and make "some"
sense if you are going to post something on the moderated newsgroup.]
Now, we are still waiting David VP
What gives?
PF
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-03 18:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
Post by David Von Pein
"Are you saying Oswald was on the first floor getting his "drink" before the Baker/Truly encounter?" <<<
Come now, my good man. You should better than that.
I'm saying just EXACTLY what Vince Bugliosi will undoubtedly be saying
At this time I'll wait for the opportunity to read "EXACTLY" what VB has
to say on this sequence of events since he is not involved in this
discussion and focus on your comments. Since your reply adds far more
views then the topic, those views will be addressed seperately.
Post by David Von Pein
Post by David Von Pein
4.) Baker &
Truly encounter Oswald (with NO soft drink at all) in the > lunchroom.

Since you don't say which lunchroom, I'll assume you mean the 2nd floor and not the 1st.

I believe Givens,originally said he saw Oswald reading a newspaper on the
first floor at 11:50 . Two other TSBD workers likewise put Oswald on the
first floor from 11:50 to 12:00, but I'm going from memory here, just to
show there is some conflict, but I believe it was Bill Shelley and Eddie
Piper who also saw Oswald on the first floor. The second floor is not
mentioned in this timeframe

Other workers put Oswald on the 6th floor when they broke for lunch. Bill
Lovelady, Danny Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams

The point being is that there is conflict dealing with where Oswald was
between the break for lunch and the Baker/Truly encounter.

Back to the "drink issue" ....... (with NO soft drink at all).

Here's two CT accounts

"Oswald allegedly told the police that he ate lunch in the domino room on
the first floor (which was often used as a lunchroom by employees), and
that he went upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a Coke and had
just finished getting the Coke from the soda machine when Officer Marrion
Baker approached him and asked him to identify himself. Three witnesses,
Eddie Piper, Bill Shelley, and Charles Givens, reported seeing Oswald on
the first floor between 11:50 and 12:00 (19 H 499; 6 H 383; 7 H 390; CD 5;
14:76-77).

"WHERE WAS OSWALD FROM 11:50 to 12:35 P.M. ON THE DAY OF THE
ASSASSINATION? Michael T. Griffith 1998

"Oswald went to the first floor of the building at approximately 12:15
p.m. and returned to the second 'floor lunchroom just before 12:30. He was
drinking a coke there at 12:31 when Officer Baker and Mr. Truly, the
building manager, encountered him while rushing up the stairs from the
first floor. "

Chapter 5, The Assassination of John Kennedy, "THE TAKING OF AMERICA,
1-2-3", 1985

Yet you don't think Oswald had any "drink" at the time of the encounter.
I could care less about the brand, since no investigational effort was
made to find any bottle that might have been handled by Oswald that day.

Michael Griffith outlines the conflict here very well.....let me quote
from his article mentioned above:

"Jim Moore and other lone-gunman theorists assume that Oswald bought the
Coke after the encounter with the manager and the policeman (3:53).
However, the available evidence indicates Oswald purchased the Coke before
the second-floor encounter (5: 50-52). Oswald had no reason to lie about
when he bought the Coke. When he mentioned the Coke-buying during his
questioning, he did so in passing, and he could not have known the
important role the timing of this detail would subsequently play in the
investigation. I agree with what David Lifton has said on this subject:

The original news accounts said that when Baker first saw Oswald, the
latter was drinking a Coke. This seemingly minor fact was crucial, because
if Oswald had time to operate the machine, open the bottle, and drink some
soda, that would mean he was on the second floor even earlier than the
Commission's reconstructions allowed. In a signed statement Officer Baker
was asked to make in September 1964, at the tail-end of the investigation,
he wrote: "I saw a man standing in the lunchroom drinking a coke." A line
was drawn through "drinking a coke," and Baker initialed the corrected
version.

[Dallas] Police Captain Will Fritz, in his report on his interrogation of
Oswald, wrote: "I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer
stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a Coca Cola when
the officer came in." If I were a juror, I would have believed Oswald
already had the Coke in hand, and indeed, had drunk some of it, by the
time the officer entered the lunchroom. (18:351) During a radio program on
December 23, 1966, Albert Jenner, a former senior WC counsel, said that
when Baker saw Oswald in the lunchroom, Oswald was holding a Coke in his
hand. Said Jenner, "the first man this policeman saw, was Oswald with a
bottle of Coke" (17:226). The fact that Oswald was holding a Coke when
Baker confronted him in the lunchroom was one of the details that Chief
Jesse Curry of the Dallas police mentioned to reporters the day after the
shooting. As late as ten days later this detail was still being reported
in major newspapers, such as THE WASHINGTON POST"

The above illustrates versions of the events and some of the conflicts.
Since your express view is:

"(with NO soft drink at all)."

How do you address the following conflict:

"In a signed statement Officer Baker was asked to make in September 1964,
at the tail-end of the investigation, he wrote: "I saw a man standing in
the lunchroom drinking a coke." A line was drawn through "drinking a
coke," and Baker initialed the corrected version.

All accounts prior to September 1964 indicate Oswald was holding "a drink"
when the Baker/Truly encounter took place, therefore if Oswald was not
holding a drink at the time, as you indicate, why were accounts given that
he was?

Why the need to eliminate the purchase? Don't forget, Oswald confirmed
having a drink when the encounter took place, and it's a matter of record,
if you take the after action notes, affidavits, statements and reports at
face value.

Who was lying and why?

jko
Post by David Von Pein
1.) Lee Harvey Oswald was on the 6th Floor at 12:30 PM and he shot and
killed JFK (alone) from the Sniper's Nest in the southeast corner of
the building.
2.) Oswald then scurried down the back stairs after stashing his rifle
in the northwest corner (while wiping off as many fingerprints as he
could with his brown shirt, a shirt he likely was not wearing when he
pulled the trigger; and that's how the fairly-"fresh" brownish shirt
fibers could have embedded themselves onto the rifle, while Oswald was
wiping off prints as he went from the SN to the stairs).*
3.) Oswald peels off the stairs at Floor #2, and ducks into the
lunchroom. (It's possible he heard Baker & Truly coming up the stairs
from the first floor.)
4.) Baker & Truly encounter Oswald (with NO soft drink at all) in the
lunchroom. Baker's gun is shoved almost right up against LHO's belly
("almost touching" Oswald's body, per Roy Truly). Oswald says not a
word (which, if he's innocent, is mighty strange, IMO).
5.) Oswald, after his encounter with B&T, purchases a Coke from the
Coca-Cola machine on the second floor, and then works his way through
the 2nd-Floor offices. He mumbles something to Mrs. Robert A. Reid
after Reid says to LHO "the President's been shot". And again, there's
no surprised reaction at all by LHO. He doesn't ask, "What the heck
happened do you think? How could this have happened?".
He's totally unconcerned...and that's because he doesn't NEED to ask
questions, because HE himself knows what happened to JFK, because he
himself was responsible for causing it.
6.) Oswald, after his arrest, tells police (on at least one occasion)
that he had lunch with "Junior" on the first floor of the Depository
when the President was killed. And in elaborating on this "first-
floor" alibi, he says he went up to the second floor to get a Coke,
and then he encountered Baker & Truly (which he did not deny, and
obviously he knew he couldn't deny that meeting).
* = The "shirt" theory is mine, but I have a feeling VB might possibly
say something along those same lines as well; hence the reason why
witnesses saw Oswald in "light" clothing (in his white T-shirt only).
The brown shirt was probably by his feet in the Sniper's Nest when
Oswald was seen by witnesses. Baker testified that Oswald's brown
"jacket" (he thought the shirt resembled a "jacket") was "hanging
out"...i.e., untucked.
MARRION BAKER -- "I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I
was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention.
After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to
him, so I just turned and went on."
Now, since Jarman's and Williams' WC testimony verifies beyond any
doubt that there was a Dr. Pepper machine (in working order on 11/22)
on the FIRST floor, it begs the obvious question re. Oswald's alibi --
Why does he need to travel to the 2nd Floor for a soft drink when a
pop machine was right there on the first floor, which is where he said
he was when JFK was shot at 12:30?
I also have a feeling that Mr. Bugliosi has probably doubled (and
maybe tripled) his verification of the existence of that first-floor
soda machine too.
IOW, he hasn't JUST relied (as I have done) on the WC testimony of the
TSBD witnesses, esp. Jarman. Vince has probably talked with some of
those TSBD employees himself and asked them point-blank: Was there a
second soda machine in the TSBD when you worked there in Nov. 1963?
David Von Pein
2007-05-04 04:48:33 UTC
Permalink
"How do you address the following conflict: "In a signed statement
Officer Baker was asked to make in September 1964, at the tail-end of the
investigation, he wrote: "I saw a man standing in the lunchroom drinking a
coke." A line was drawn through "drinking a coke," and Baker initialed the
corrected version." <<<

I've hashed this out several times with one of the CTers at the asylum
side of this forum. Here is the latest example:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/342fd77f9a7ee7c3

And here's the Burnett/Baker document in question:

Loading Image...
"All accounts prior to September 1964 indicate Oswald was holding "a
drink" when the Baker/Truly encounter took place." <<<

I have no idea why you're saying this obvious falsehood. Both Baker's and
Truly's WC testimony (taken well prior to September 1964) indicate that
Oswald had NO DRINK in his hands during the 2nd-Floor encounter on 11/22.

Therefore, why are you saying "all accounts" above? That's 100% incorrect.
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-04 15:19:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"How do you address the following conflict: "In a signed statement
Officer Baker was asked to make in September 1964, at the tail-end of the
investigation, he wrote: "I saw a man standing in the lunchroom drinking a
coke." A line was drawn through "drinking a coke," and Baker initialed the
corrected version." <<<
I've hashed this out several times with one of the CTers at the asylum
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/342fd77f9a7ee7c3
Since I rarely go to the nuthouse to read anything posted there I'm glad you
provided the link, although you might not think so.
Post by David Von Pein
http://whokilledjfk.net/images/altgen9.jpg
You make some statements concerning this document that I find interesting.

Do you have a copy of the handwriting evaluation conducted on who wrote
this document?

Was it done by the FBI, SS or Postal Inspectors who do offical examinations of this
type or by an outside agency?

When was this done and why?

Your comments over at the nuthouse indicate that the author of the document is in question
and it was written by Burnett and the coke issue was only crossed out and signed by Baker.
Post by David Von Pein
"You said it was written by an FBI agent." <<<
Your reply:

'Which it so obviously was (the handwriting indicates that, without doubt)."

Why is it so obvious?

Why would Burnett even mention a coke if it was not what Baker had said?

Who or what is his source for this if not Baker?

If the consideration of having a "coke" is not part of the offical record, why would Burnett
add a false consideration to the encounter?

Now it is common for an agent to write out a statement made by a witness and then have
the witness sign the document after correcting it. However, if Burnett was writing out what
Baker was saying....the indication is that Baker mentioned the coke first, then crossed it
out and signed it. Burnett would not write out the encounter on his own, it would not be
Baker's statement if he did.

Why was this September 23, 1964 document even needed if Baker had already
testified and made his offical statements? Is there another Baker document that mentions
Oswald with a "coke" or a drink of some sort?

If this issue was resolved there would be no need for this document. The document
however re-opens the issue in question.
Post by David Von Pein
"All accounts prior to September 1964 indicate Oswald was holding "a
drink" when the Baker/Truly encounter took place." <<<
I have no idea why you're saying this obvious falsehood. Both Baker's and
Truly's WC testimony (taken well prior to September 1964) indicate that
Oswald had NO DRINK in his hands during the 2nd-Floor encounter on 11/22.
Therefore, why are you saying "all accounts" above? That's 100% incorrect.
All may have been a strech, however the issue is still part of the accounts given.
I delt with those accounts in another response since you failed to address them.

jko
tomnln
2007-05-05 02:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Baker places himself in 2 different positions when he saw Oswald.

Baker places Oswald in 3 differen t positions when Baker saw Oswald,

All HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"How do you address the following conflict: "In a signed statement
Officer Baker was asked to make in September 1964, at the tail-end of the
investigation, he wrote: "I saw a man standing in the lunchroom drinking a
coke." A line was drawn through "drinking a coke," and Baker initialed the
corrected version." <<<
I've hashed this out several times with one of the CTers at the asylum
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/342fd77f9a7ee7c3
Since I rarely go to the nuthouse to read anything posted there I'm glad you
provided the link, although you might not think so.
Post by David Von Pein
http://whokilledjfk.net/images/altgen9.jpg
You make some statements concerning this document that I find interesting.
this document?
Was it done by the FBI, SS or Postal Inspectors who do offical
examinations of this
type or by an outside agency?
When was this done and why?
Your comments over at the nuthouse indicate that the author of the document is in question
and it was written by Burnett and the coke issue was only crossed out and signed by Baker.
Post by David Von Pein
"You said it was written by an FBI agent." <<<
'Which it so obviously was (the handwriting indicates that, without doubt)."
Why is it so obvious?
Why would Burnett even mention a coke if it was not what Baker had said?
Who or what is his source for this if not Baker?
If the consideration of having a "coke" is not part of the offical record,
why would Burnett
add a false consideration to the encounter?
Now it is common for an agent to write out a statement made by a witness and then have
the witness sign the document after correcting it. However, if Burnett
was writing out what
Baker was saying....the indication is that Baker mentioned the coke first, then crossed it
out and signed it. Burnett would not write out the encounter on his own, it would not be
Baker's statement if he did.
Why was this September 23, 1964 document even needed if Baker had already
testified and made his offical statements? Is there another Baker document that mentions
Oswald with a "coke" or a drink of some sort?
If this issue was resolved there would be no need for this document. The document
however re-opens the issue in question.
Post by David Von Pein
"All accounts prior to September 1964 indicate Oswald was holding "a
drink" when the Baker/Truly encounter took place." <<<
I have no idea why you're saying this obvious falsehood. Both Baker's and
Truly's WC testimony (taken well prior to September 1964) indicate that
Oswald had NO DRINK in his hands during the 2nd-Floor encounter on 11/22.
Therefore, why are you saying "all accounts" above? That's 100% incorrect.
All may have been a strech, however the issue is still part of the accounts given.
I delt with those accounts in another response since you failed to address them.
jko
David Von Pein
2007-05-05 05:42:30 UTC
Permalink
"You make some statements concerning this {9/23/64 Baker/Burnett/Coke}
document that I find interesting. Do you have a copy of the handwriting
evaluation conducted on who wrote this document?" <<<

No.
"Was it done by the FBI, SS or Postal Inspectors who do official
examinations of this type or by an outside agency?" <<<

I haven't the foggiest. I can't even see any logical reason as to why the
FBI would need such a document...one day prior to the WCR being released.
Weird, I'll readily admit. But conspiratorial? How? Somebody will need to
explain that part...especially since that 9/23/64 document obviously
wasn't going to be a part of the "official Warren Report" record at all.
"When was this done and why?" <<<
The handwriting evaluation, you mean?

My answer -- ~shrug~. Beats me.

What makes you think there even WAS any official "handwriting evaluation"
done concerning this document? There probably wasn't.
"Your comments over at the nuthouse indicate that the author of the
document is in question and it was written by Burnett...{DVP wrote} 'Which
it so obviously was (the handwriting indicates that, without doubt).'
{/DVP Off} ... Why is it so obvious?" <<<

I've slightly revised my opinion on "It Was Obviously Burnett's Writing".
I still think it is probably Burnett's...but I can't prove that 100%. But
it's positively NOT Marrion L. Baker's handwriting. THAT is obvious. It is
to me anyway...unless Baker was good at possessing two entirely-different
writing styles. .....

Loading Image...
"Why would Burnett even mention a coke if it was not what Baker had
said?" <<<

Like I said in an earlier post..."merged" evidence that shouldn't be
merged at all. By the time that document was written (09/23/64), it was
surely common knowledge at the Dallas FBI offices that Lee Oswald was
carrying a Coke bottle in the TSBD at some point just after President
Kennedy's assassination.

Perhaps Burnett, like other people who I think have done the same bit of
incorrect "merging", thought that Baker did see LHO with a Coke, and wrote
it down as such (and he got the floor number wrong too remember...strange,
indeed, if Baker was sitting right there beside him...and stranger still
is the question of WHY Baker couldn't pick up a pen and write the whole
damn thing himself if he was right there).
"Who or what is his source for this {"Coke" thing} if not Baker?" <<<
"Merging". (IMHO.)
"If the consideration of having a "coke" is not part of the official
record, why would Burnett add a false consideration to the encounter?" <<<

Again -- "Merging".
"Burnett would not write out the encounter on his own, it would not be
Baker's statement if he did." <<<

Yeah, the whole thing is just odd, I admit. I have no firm answer for it.
Maybe Vince B. will. Maybe Agent Burnett is still alive and has talked
with Bugliosi to clear it up. Or maybe Officer Bobby Hargis can clear it
up. Hargis is listed as a witness on the document. And his name is signed
by the same person who wrote the whole thing and who also signed Burnett's
name too...probably Burnett, IMO.
"Why was this September 23, 1964 document even needed if Baker had
already testified and made his official statements?" <<<

Indeed. I've asked that very same question myself....

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e25665403174ce0a
"Is there another Baker document that mentions Oswald with a "coke" or
a drink of some sort?" <<<

Not that I know of.

A DVP "COKE" ADDENDUM.....

Even if LHO had a Coke in his hands during his encounter with B&T, it in
no way exonerates Mr. Oswald of killing the President. It only tightens
the already-tight "lunchroom timeline" a little more.

Oswald could have bought that drink after running down the stairs from the
6th Floor and then encountered B&T. I don't think he did buy the Coke
before the meeting (and the WC evidence backs up that belief)....all I'm
saying is that it's possible he could have bought the Coke earlier.

It wouldn't have taken more than 10-15 extra seconds to buy that drink.
And all the timelines are only "best estimates" anyway.

Plus -- We don't have the slightest idea how fast (or slow) Oswald was
coming down those back stairs. No one knows that but Lee Harvey Oswald.
And Oswald, unfortunately, wasn't kind enough to tell us those details.

The Coke/Dr. Pepper thing isn't definitive in any way, as I've said
previously as well. But the proof-positive (via Vincent Bugliosi's
undoubtedly-thorough research and the testimony of James Jarman, which I
confirmed the other day) of a "Dr. Pepper machine" on the very same floor
that Oswald used as a 12:30 alibi only tends to make Lee Oswald's alibi
about travelling to the 2nd Floor to buy a soft drink just that much more
suspicious and specious.
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-05 14:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"You make some statements concerning this {9/23/64 Baker/Burnett/Coke}
document that I find interesting. Do you have a copy of the handwriting
evaluation conducted on who wrote this document?" <<<
No.
That's a shame.....you make a bold stand without evidence to support your
position. However, it it will make you feel good...there is little
question on the matter.... my evaluation (unoffical...because of my lack
of credentials) indicates it is Burnetts handwriting. I have had
instruction on handwriting in my forensic studies, by two experts.
Post by David Von Pein
"Was it done by the FBI, SS or Postal Inspectors who do official
examinations of this type or by an outside agency?" <<<
I haven't the foggiest. I can't even see any logical reason as to why the
FBI would need such a document...one day prior to the WCR being released.
Weird, I'll readily admit. But conspiratorial? How? Somebody will need to
explain that part...especially since that 9/23/64 document obviously
wasn't going to be a part of the "official Warren Report" record at all.
Evidence was still being collected even after the WR was given to LBJ,
TSBD employees were again fingerprinted at this same time and the
evaluation on palmprints continued in Dec of 64.

The 23 Sept document is worthless for several reason's besides the main
body of the report being finished, the exhibit volumes were still being
finalized.
Post by David Von Pein
"When was this done and why?" <<<
The handwriting evaluation, you mean?
My answer -- ~shrug~. Beats me.
What makes you think there even WAS any official "handwriting evaluation"
done concerning this document? There probably wasn't.
Your bold statement that it was obvious.....and the fact that you base
alot of your posts on what others say.
Post by David Von Pein
"Your comments over at the nuthouse indicate that the author of the
document is in question and it was written by Burnett...{DVP wrote} 'Which
it so obviously was (the handwriting indicates that, without doubt).'
{/DVP Off} ... Why is it so obvious?" <<<
I've slightly revised my opinion on "It Was Obviously Burnett's Writing".
I still think it is probably Burnett's...but I can't prove that 100%. But
it's positively NOT Marrion L. Baker's handwriting. THAT is obvious. It is
to me anyway...unless Baker was good at possessing two entirely-different
writing styles. .....
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/images/altgen9.jpg
The indicators that are obvious are the capital L. in Baker's name in the
opening as compared to the L in his signature. The J. in Burrentt's
signature in the body as compared to the J in his signature.....Baker
could not have written out the Burnett signature in the body of the
statement. The reproduction is too poor for anyone to do a detailed
evaluation without the orginal handy.
Post by David Von Pein
"Why would Burnett even mention a coke if it was not what Baker had
said?" <<<
Like I said in an earlier post..."merged" evidence that shouldn't be
merged at all. By the time that document was written (09/23/64), it was
surely common knowledge at the Dallas FBI offices that Lee Oswald was
carrying a Coke bottle in the TSBD at some point just after President
Kennedy's assassination.
HOW would this be common knowledge, without some source that could be
verified. Oswald was dead, there were no offical transcripts of the
interogations, no statements signed by Oswald. There is no evidence to
"merge". Burnett is writing down what Baker is saying....Baker had to say
"holding a coke" and cross it out after reading what he wrote. There are
no valid reasons to consider Burnett writing down 'his impression" of what
happened. He is not dictating what Baker is going to sign.
Post by David Von Pein
Perhaps Burnett, like other people who I think have done the same bit of
it down as such
FBI agents creating false statements by writing their own opinion instead
of the person's giving the statement..........don't think so. That's a
hard thing to accept. Drinking a coke....does not help the FBI's case
against Oswald, so it hard to accept that this extra time would be given
to Oswald, when there was very little time to spare.
Post by David Von Pein
(and he got the floor number wrong too remember...strange,
indeed, if Baker was sitting right there beside him...and stranger still
is the question of WHY Baker couldn't pick up a pen and write the whole
damn thing himself if he was right there).
Besides having the floor wrong.......he never mentions Oswald only "a
man". In addition the document is a cut and paste job, although only the
location, date and borders are "cut".....the rest is torn. Baker states
he initialed each sentence, as being correct, those initials on each line
are cut. There is also the consideration of missing pages.

Based on these considerations.....one can consider that Baker was asked to
cross out "drinking a coke" and to change the floor after what he said was
recorded verbatim. It's much easier to consider that the FBI would want to
change those aspects then to have a FBI agent write out his opinion that
favors the man Baker incountered was not Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
"Who or what is his source for this {"Coke" thing} if not Baker?" <<<
"Merging". (IMHO.)
No evidence of that consideration...it's speculation that no prosecutor
would try and get away with....it would undermine the integrity and
abilities of the "expert" witness (Burnett), the defense would jump all
over this and score big time with a jury.
Post by David Von Pein
"If the consideration of having a "coke" is not part of the official
record, why would Burnett add a false consideration to the encounter?" <<<
Again -- "Merging".
It's also perjury and does not help the case against Oswald. Burnett is
saying based on your "Merging" that the man Baker encountered was on the
first floor drinking a coke....not on the second floor.....in other words
Baker could not have encountered Lee Harvey Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
"Burnett would not write out the encounter on his own, it would not be
Baker's statement if he did." <<<
Yeah, the whole thing is just odd, I admit. I have no firm answer for it.
Maybe Vince B. will. Maybe Agent Burnett is still alive and has talked
with Bugliosi to clear it up. Or maybe Officer Bobby Hargis can clear it
up. Hargis is listed as a witness on the document. And his name is signed
by the same person who wrote the whole thing and who also signed Burnett's
name too...probably Burnett, IMO.
It's possible that Burnett wrote out the Hargis signature.....that's where
offical handwriting evaluation has to come in to play. If Burnett did in
fact as you suggest write out the signature of Hargis instead of allowing
Hargis to do it, there is a consideration of criminal behavior on the part
of Burnett creating a false document.
Post by David Von Pein
"Why was this September 23, 1964 document even needed if Baker had
already testified and made his official statements?" <<<
Indeed. I've asked that very same question myself....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e25665403174ce0a
Like I said I'm glad you directed me to that post. You provided the
opportunity to expand the details of this conflict......however you've
added details that do not actually help the case against Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
"Is there another Baker document that mentions Oswald with a "coke" or
a drink of some sort?" <<<
Not that I know of.
A DVP "COKE" ADDENDUM.....
Even if LHO had a Coke in his hands during his encounter with B&T, it in
no way exonerates Mr. Oswald of killing the President. It only tightens
the already-tight "lunchroom timeline" a little more.
The effort here is not to exonerate Oswald, he is directly involved in
various actions associated with the assassination, the effort is to
resolve some of these conflicts surrounding the actions presented.
Post by David Von Pein
Oswald could have bought that drink after running down the stairs from the
6th Floor and then encountered B&T. I don't think he did buy the Coke
before the meeting (and the WC evidence backs up that belief)....all I'm
saying is that it's possible he could have bought the Coke earlier.
He also could have been on the first floor and purchased the drink just
before the encounter as he entered the lunch room to drink it....while
waiting to make a phone call or pick up the phone first when it rang.
Another could have fired the shots, while Oswald was involved in these
actions. There are alot of considerations here....not just the
consideration of running down the stairs after shooting JFK. The WC only
presents "their conclusions"....and as the 23 Sept Baker document on this
action shows....those conclusions were formed before all the evidence or
considerations were in.
Post by David Von Pein
It wouldn't have taken more than 10-15 extra seconds to buy that drink.
And all the timelines are only "best estimates" anyway.
Perhaps then the10-15 extra seconds were actually 20-30 seconds. You have
no grounds to limit the amount of extra seconds such actions would take.
Post by David Von Pein
Plus -- We don't have the slightest idea how fast (or slow) Oswald was
coming down those back stairs.
Or going up from the first floor.
Post by David Von Pein
No one knows that but Lee Harvey Oswald.
And Oswald, unfortunately, wasn't kind enough to tell us those details.
Which makes the need for valid offical records even greater. Documents
that present false actions or documents "corrected" to show false actions
do not help the case against Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
The Coke/Dr. Pepper thing isn't definitive in any way, as I've said
previously as well. But the proof-positive (via Vincent Bugliosi's
undoubtedly-thorough research and the testimony of James Jarman, which I
confirmed the other day) of a "Dr. Pepper machine" on the very same floor
that Oswald used as a 12:30 alibi only tends to make Lee Oswald's alibi
about travelling to the 2nd Floor to buy a soft drink just that much more
suspicious and specious.
Sorry but the whole mess is not by any means "proof-positive". There may
well have been two pop machines available....and Lee might have really
enjoyed a 10-2-4 Dr. Pepper break. (10-2-4 was the suggested times by the
company to enjoy a cold refreshing Dr. P, it was under/above the name on
bottles of that time period) but the accounts are anything but clear.

jko
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-05 21:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"You make some statements concerning this {9/23/64 Baker/Burnett/Coke}
document that I find interesting. Do you have a copy of the handwriting
evaluation conducted on who wrote this document?" <<<
No.
That's a shame.....you make a bold stand without evidence to support your
position. However, it it will make you feel good...there is little
question on the matter.... my evaluation (unoffical...because of my lack
of credentials) indicates it is Burnetts handwriting. I have had
instruction on handwriting in my forensic studies, by two experts.
Post by David Von Pein
"Was it done by the FBI, SS or Postal Inspectors who do official
examinations of this type or by an outside agency?" <<<
I haven't the foggiest. I can't even see any logical reason as to why the
FBI would need such a document...one day prior to the WCR being released.
Weird, I'll readily admit. But conspiratorial? How? Somebody will need to
explain that part...especially since that 9/23/64 document obviously
wasn't going to be a part of the "official Warren Report" record at all.
Evidence was still being collected even after the WR was given to LBJ,
TSBD employees were again fingerprinted at this same time and the
evaluation on palmprints continued in Dec of 64.
The 23 Sept document is worthless for several reason's besides the main
body of the report being finished, the exhibit volumes were still being
finalized.
Post by David Von Pein
"When was this done and why?" <<<
The handwriting evaluation, you mean?
My answer -- ~shrug~. Beats me.
What makes you think there even WAS any official "handwriting evaluation"
done concerning this document? There probably wasn't.
Your bold statement that it was obvious.....and the fact that you base
alot of your posts on what others say.
Post by David Von Pein
"Your comments over at the nuthouse indicate that the author of the
document is in question and it was written by Burnett...{DVP wrote} 'Which
it so obviously was (the handwriting indicates that, without doubt).'
{/DVP Off} ... Why is it so obvious?" <<<
I've slightly revised my opinion on "It Was Obviously Burnett's Writing".
I still think it is probably Burnett's...but I can't prove that 100%. But
it's positively NOT Marrion L. Baker's handwriting. THAT is obvious. It is
to me anyway...unless Baker was good at possessing two entirely-different
writing styles. .....
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/images/altgen9.jpg
The indicators that are obvious are the capital L. in Baker's name in the
opening as compared to the L in his signature. The J. in Burrentt's
signature in the body as compared to the J in his signature.....Baker
could not have written out the Burnett signature in the body of the
statement. The reproduction is too poor for anyone to do a detailed
evaluation without the orginal handy.
Post by David Von Pein
"Why would Burnett even mention a coke if it was not what Baker had
said?" <<<
Like I said in an earlier post..."merged" evidence that shouldn't be
merged at all. By the time that document was written (09/23/64), it was
surely common knowledge at the Dallas FBI offices that Lee Oswald was
carrying a Coke bottle in the TSBD at some point just after President
Kennedy's assassination.
HOW would this be common knowledge, without some source that could be
verified. Oswald was dead, there were no offical transcripts of the
interogations, no statements signed by Oswald. There is no evidence to
"merge". Burnett is writing down what Baker is saying....Baker had to say
"holding a coke" and cross it out after reading what he wrote. There are
no valid reasons to consider Burnett writing down 'his impression" of what
happened. He is not dictating what Baker is going to sign.
Post by David Von Pein
Perhaps Burnett, like other people who I think have done the same bit of
it down as such
FBI agents creating false statements by writing their own opinion instead
of the person's giving the statement..........don't think so. That's a
hard thing to accept. Drinking a coke....does not help the FBI's case
against Oswald, so it hard to accept that this extra time would be given
to Oswald, when there was very little time to spare.
Post by David Von Pein
(and he got the floor number wrong too remember...strange,
indeed, if Baker was sitting right there beside him...and stranger still
is the question of WHY Baker couldn't pick up a pen and write the whole
damn thing himself if he was right there).
Besides having the floor wrong.......he never mentions Oswald only "a
man". In addition the document is a cut and paste job, although only the
location, date and borders are "cut".....the rest is torn. Baker states
he initialed each sentence, as being correct, those initials on each line
are cut. There is also the consideration of missing pages.
Based on these considerations.....one can consider that Baker was asked to
cross out "drinking a coke" and to change the floor after what he said was
recorded verbatim. It's much easier to consider that the FBI would want to
change those aspects then to have a FBI agent write out his opinion that
favors the man Baker incountered was not Oswald.
Obviously not your theory, but can anyone else explain how in the world
Burnett would think of adding the phrase "holding a Coke" if he had not
heard someone, Baker, saying it? He could just as easily have added,
"eating an apple." That makes more sense. He could just as easily have
added, "smoking a cigarette" which would be a dead giveaway that he was
making it up.
Something else seems to be overlooked. Burnett did not do all this on
his own. He wasn't smart enough. There had to be someone standing over
him and supervising him, telling him what to leave in and what to take
out. Someone who knew a lot more about the events than he did.
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"Who or what is his source for this {"Coke" thing} if not Baker?" <<<
"Merging". (IMHO.)
No evidence of that consideration...it's speculation that no prosecutor
would try and get away with....it would undermine the integrity and
abilities of the "expert" witness (Burnett), the defense would jump all
over this and score big time with a jury.
Post by David Von Pein
"If the consideration of having a "coke" is not part of the official
record, why would Burnett add a false consideration to the encounter?" <<<
Again -- "Merging".
It's also perjury and does not help the case against Oswald. Burnett is
saying based on your "Merging" that the man Baker encountered was on the
first floor drinking a coke....not on the second floor.....in other words
Baker could not have encountered Lee Harvey Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
"Burnett would not write out the encounter on his own, it would not be
Baker's statement if he did." <<<
Yeah, the whole thing is just odd, I admit. I have no firm answer for it.
Maybe Vince B. will. Maybe Agent Burnett is still alive and has talked
with Bugliosi to clear it up. Or maybe Officer Bobby Hargis can clear it
up. Hargis is listed as a witness on the document. And his name is signed
by the same person who wrote the whole thing and who also signed Burnett's
name too...probably Burnett, IMO.
It's possible that Burnett wrote out the Hargis signature.....that's where
offical handwriting evaluation has to come in to play. If Burnett did in
fact as you suggest write out the signature of Hargis instead of allowing
Hargis to do it, there is a consideration of criminal behavior on the part
of Burnett creating a false document.
Post by David Von Pein
"Why was this September 23, 1964 document even needed if Baker had
already testified and made his official statements?" <<<
Indeed. I've asked that very same question myself....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e25665403174ce0a
Like I said I'm glad you directed me to that post. You provided the
opportunity to expand the details of this conflict......however you've
added details that do not actually help the case against Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
"Is there another Baker document that mentions Oswald with a "coke" or
a drink of some sort?" <<<
Not that I know of.
A DVP "COKE" ADDENDUM.....
Even if LHO had a Coke in his hands during his encounter with B&T, it in
no way exonerates Mr. Oswald of killing the President. It only tightens
the already-tight "lunchroom timeline" a little more.
The effort here is not to exonerate Oswald, he is directly involved in
various actions associated with the assassination, the effort is to
resolve some of these conflicts surrounding the actions presented.
Post by David Von Pein
Oswald could have bought that drink after running down the stairs from the
6th Floor and then encountered B&T. I don't think he did buy the Coke
before the meeting (and the WC evidence backs up that belief)....all I'm
saying is that it's possible he could have bought the Coke earlier.
He also could have been on the first floor and purchased the drink just
before the encounter as he entered the lunch room to drink it....while
waiting to make a phone call or pick up the phone first when it rang.
Another could have fired the shots, while Oswald was involved in these
actions. There are alot of considerations here....not just the
consideration of running down the stairs after shooting JFK. The WC only
presents "their conclusions"....and as the 23 Sept Baker document on this
action shows....those conclusions were formed before all the evidence or
considerations were in.
Post by David Von Pein
It wouldn't have taken more than 10-15 extra seconds to buy that drink.
And all the timelines are only "best estimates" anyway.
Perhaps then the10-15 extra seconds were actually 20-30 seconds. You have
no grounds to limit the amount of extra seconds such actions would take.
Post by David Von Pein
Plus -- We don't have the slightest idea how fast (or slow) Oswald was
coming down those back stairs.
Or going up from the first floor.
Post by David Von Pein
No one knows that but Lee Harvey Oswald.
And Oswald, unfortunately, wasn't kind enough to tell us those details.
Which makes the need for valid offical records even greater. Documents
that present false actions or documents "corrected" to show false actions
do not help the case against Oswald.
Post by David Von Pein
The Coke/Dr. Pepper thing isn't definitive in any way, as I've said
previously as well. But the proof-positive (via Vincent Bugliosi's
undoubtedly-thorough research and the testimony of James Jarman, which I
confirmed the other day) of a "Dr. Pepper machine" on the very same floor
that Oswald used as a 12:30 alibi only tends to make Lee Oswald's alibi
about travelling to the 2nd Floor to buy a soft drink just that much more
suspicious and specious.
Sorry but the whole mess is not by any means "proof-positive". There may
well have been two pop machines available....and Lee might have really
enjoyed a 10-2-4 Dr. Pepper break. (10-2-4 was the suggested times by the
company to enjoy a cold refreshing Dr. P, it was under/above the name on
bottles of that time period) but the accounts are anything but clear.
jko
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-06 03:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"You make some statements concerning this {9/23/64 Baker/Burnett/Coke}
document that I find interesting. Do you have a copy of the handwriting
evaluation conducted on who wrote this document?" <<<
No.
That's a shame.....you make a bold stand without evidence to support your position. However, it it will make you
feel good...there is little question on the matter.... my evaluation (unoffical...because of my lack of credentials)
indicates it is Burnetts handwriting. I have had instruction on handwriting in my forensic studies, by two experts.
Post by David Von Pein
"Was it done by the FBI, SS or Postal Inspectors who do official
examinations of this type or by an outside agency?" <<<
I haven't the foggiest. I can't even see any logical reason as to why the
FBI would need such a document...one day prior to the WCR being released.
Weird, I'll readily admit. But conspiratorial? How? Somebody will need to
explain that part...especially since that 9/23/64 document obviously
wasn't going to be a part of the "official Warren Report" record at all.
Evidence was still being collected even after the WR was given to LBJ, TSBD employees were again fingerprinted at
this same time and the evaluation on palmprints continued in Dec of 64.
The 23 Sept document is worthless for several reason's besides the main body of the report being finished, the
exhibit volumes were still being finalized.
Post by David Von Pein
"When was this done and why?" <<<
The handwriting evaluation, you mean?
My answer -- ~shrug~. Beats me.
What makes you think there even WAS any official "handwriting evaluation"
done concerning this document? There probably wasn't.
Your bold statement that it was obvious.....and the fact that you base alot of your posts on what others say.
Post by David Von Pein
"Your comments over at the nuthouse indicate that the author of the
document is in question and it was written by Burnett...{DVP wrote} 'Which
it so obviously was (the handwriting indicates that, without doubt).'
{/DVP Off} ... Why is it so obvious?" <<<
I've slightly revised my opinion on "It Was Obviously Burnett's Writing".
I still think it is probably Burnett's...but I can't prove that 100%. But
it's positively NOT Marrion L. Baker's handwriting. THAT is obvious. It is
to me anyway...unless Baker was good at possessing two entirely-different
writing styles. .....
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/images/altgen9.jpg
The indicators that are obvious are the capital L. in Baker's name in the opening as compared to the L in his
signature. The J. in Burrentt's signature in the body as compared to the J in his signature.....Baker could not have
written out the Burnett signature in the body of the statement. The reproduction is too poor for anyone to do a
detailed evaluation without the orginal handy.
Post by David Von Pein
"Why would Burnett even mention a coke if it was not what Baker had
said?" <<<
Like I said in an earlier post..."merged" evidence that shouldn't be
merged at all. By the time that document was written (09/23/64), it was
surely common knowledge at the Dallas FBI offices that Lee Oswald was
carrying a Coke bottle in the TSBD at some point just after President
Kennedy's assassination.
HOW would this be common knowledge, without some source that could be verified. Oswald was dead, there were no
offical transcripts of the interogations, no statements signed by Oswald. There is no evidence to "merge". Burnett
is writing down what Baker is saying....Baker had to say "holding a coke" and cross it out after reading what he
wrote. There are no valid reasons to consider Burnett writing down 'his impression" of what happened. He is not
dictating what Baker is going to sign.
Post by David Von Pein
Perhaps Burnett, like other people who I think have done the same bit of
it down as such
FBI agents creating false statements by writing their own opinion instead of the person's giving the
statement..........don't think so. That's a hard thing to accept. Drinking a coke....does not help the FBI's case
against Oswald, so it hard to accept that this extra time would be given to Oswald, when there was very little time
to spare.
Post by David Von Pein
(and he got the floor number wrong too remember...strange,
indeed, if Baker was sitting right there beside him...and stranger still
is the question of WHY Baker couldn't pick up a pen and write the whole
damn thing himself if he was right there).
Besides having the floor wrong.......he never mentions Oswald only "a man". In addition the document is a cut and
paste job, although only the location, date and borders are "cut".....the rest is torn. Baker states he initialed
each sentence, as being correct, those initials on each line are cut. There is also the consideration of missing
pages.
Based on these considerations.....one can consider that Baker was asked to cross out "drinking a coke" and to change
the floor after what he said was recorded verbatim. It's much easier to consider that the FBI would want to change
those aspects then to have a FBI agent write out his opinion that favors the man Baker incountered was not Oswald.
Obviously not your theory, but can anyone else explain how in the world Burnett would think of adding the phrase
"holding a Coke" if he had not heard someone, Baker, saying it?
Anyone who considers that Burnett wrote down what he "thought" instead of
what Baker said has a difficult position to maintain. Since he was
writing down Baker's statement, Baker had to be the one who made the
statement.

He could just as easily have added,
"eating an apple." That makes more sense. He could just as easily have added, "smoking a cigarette" which would be a
dead giveaway that he was making it up.
Baker stated what he wanted to say....key aspects however were crossed out
or corrected and the document was butchered.....so it automatically
becomes a "questioned document". Why was it necessary to cut and paste
the date and location? Why was the intials on each sentence removed?
There are alot of things to consider with this document.
Something else seems to be overlooked. Burnett did not do all this on his own. He wasn't smart enough. There had to be
someone standing over him and supervising him, telling him what to leave in and what to take out. Someone who knew a
lot more about the events than he did.
That might be possible, but any agent building or working a case against
Oswald would know first hand that the comments needed to be removed or
corrected, since they favor Oswald.

jko
e***@tx.rr.com
2007-05-03 14:28:55 UTC
Permalink
James if I said to you out of the clear
blue based on nothing, "Are you saying
Oswald acted alone?" you would think I
was nutz.. So how do you justify this
post:

JKO ON:
"Give me a chance to understand your concern. Are you saying
Oswald was on the first floor getting his "drink" before the
Baker/Truly encounter?"
JKO OFF

James this is why/how what's left of the
"There's Something Fishy Here" gang never
progressed with any sense of direction
much less *objectivity* This is inaccurate
argumentative double-speak based on
absolutely nothing. Shall I demonstrate?

Please cut & paste what David Von Pein said
that would justify your above bewildering
"Are you saying" post.

Ed Cage 0429May307
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"I have never seen a Dr. Pepper machine in the TSBD." <<<
And I'm actually rather embarrassed that I, myself, couldn't figure
out something so EASY to figure out via the witness testimony of James
Jarman.
Give me a chance to understand your concern. Are you saying Oswald was on
the first floor getting his "drink" before the Baker/Truly encounter?
jko
Post by David Von Pein
Jarman's testimony is crystal-clear regarding what floor the "Dr.
Pepper" machine (not "Coke") was on -- it was the FIRST FLOOR. (Unless
we want to believe the silly notion that Jarman ate his sandwich and
drank his soda pop on the FIRST floor (while "walking around" on that
floor)...then he went upstairs to the second floor to toss away his
trash and place the empty bottle in a case next to the soft-drink
machine that Jarman refers to specifically as a "Dr. Pepper machine".
That scenario, of course, is just goofy. Jarman was on the first floor
the whole time. Reviewing that testimony again proves it......
Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you
talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around
finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get
out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had
had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop,
what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box
over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in
the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Peter Fokes
2007-05-03 14:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@tx.rr.com
James if I said to you out of the clear
blue based on nothing, "Are you saying
Oswald acted alone?" you would think I
was nutz..
Mmmm....

Not sure you even need to ask, eh jko?

Kidding aside Ed ... can YOU give the scoop on the vital importance of
this Dr. Pepper blockbuster?



PF
tomnln
2007-05-04 04:25:50 UTC
Permalink
ed cage will Never address the Baker Oswald encounter.

I've asked him to over one hundred times.

http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by e***@tx.rr.com
James if I said to you out of the clear
blue based on nothing, "Are you saying
Oswald acted alone?" you would think I
was nutz..
Mmmm....
Not sure you even need to ask, eh jko?
Kidding aside Ed ... can YOU give the scoop on the vital importance of
this Dr. Pepper blockbuster?
PF
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-04 04:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by e***@tx.rr.com
James if I said to you out of the clear
blue based on nothing, "Are you saying
Oswald acted alone?" you would think I
was nutz..
Mmmm....
Not sure you even need to ask, eh jko?
Pete: I always look for a laugh here and Ed seems to provide them. I don't
know how you guys would handle my response to a loaded question like the
above, so....to address the first part of the question I don't think
anyone (overall) who believes Oswald acted alone is "nutz" . The second
part of the answer however would be... I do suspect that there are many
"nutz" who do.

The reader can think what they want.

jko
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-04 04:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@tx.rr.com
James if I said to you out of the clear
blue based on nothing, "Are you saying
Oswald acted alone?" you would think I
was nutz.. So how do you justify this
"Give me a chance to understand your concern. Are you saying
Oswald was on the first floor getting his "drink" before the
Baker/Truly encounter?"
JKO OFF
James this is why/how what's left of the
"There's Something Fishy Here" gang never
progressed with any sense of direction
much less *objectivity* This is inaccurate
argumentative double-speak based on
absolutely nothing. Shall I demonstrate?
Ed: It was a simple question asked to help understand DVP's concern over
where Oswald purchased the "drink". He does not indicate in any of his
comments to that point, on why this issue is any concern.
Post by e***@tx.rr.com
Please cut & paste what David Von Pein said
that would justify your above bewildering
"Are you saying" post.
There is nothing to cut and paste since the question was asked BECAUSE he
didn't indicate why there is any concern over this issue.

The question was simple enough for DVP to respond to and he did, if you
can't understand the process of making the effort to discuss the issues
and ask questions first, to pinpoint key issues, then perhaps you should
stop and think about it before running off to demonstrate anything.

The issue of the "drink" is one of conflict, addressed by many in the past
and will be one discussed for years to come. I wanted to be clear on why
this issue was important to DVP, is that so hard to understand? The
question was simple, direct and to the point... directed to the person who
has raised the issue for discussion....if these types of questions are
"bewildering" to you, then I can't see where further discussion with you
on this will get anywhere.....but if you really don't see the conflict,
I'll try and expand...but I will not waste my time.

All accounts prior to September 1964, indicate Oswald has a "drink" during
the Baker/Truly encounter, where and when Oswald purchased that "drink" is
a major consideration. The "fishy" part you seem to be concerned with
deals with the two major conflicts "who lied about what" or "who was
mistaken about the event"....there are other concerns....but I don't want
to bewilder you any more then you indicate you are.

jko
David Von Pein
2007-05-04 05:09:03 UTC
Permalink
"It was a simple question asked to help understand DVP's concern over
where Oswald purchased the "drink". He does not indicate in any of his
comments to that point, on why this issue is any concern." <<<

Are you kidding?? Of course I indicated why the "drink" thing was of
concern to me. I indicated that in my very first post on the matter in
fact (and in others since). ....

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/1c48b1ff9fc98381

"Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom.
So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on 11/22/63. ...
Oswald's preferred beverage was available on the first floor; therefore,
why the need to go UPSTAIRS to the 2nd Floor to get a soft drink there
(which is what he told police at one point after his arrest)?" -- DVP;
05/02/2007
"All accounts prior to September 1964, indicate Oswald has a "drink"
during the Baker/Truly encounter..." <<<

Dead wrong. Neither Truly nor Baker told the WC that Oswald had a drink in
his hands during the lunchroom encounter. Why you continue to state
otherwise is a mystery.
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-04 15:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"It was a simple question asked to help understand DVP's concern over
where Oswald purchased the "drink". He does not indicate in any of his
comments to that point, on why this issue is any concern." <<<
Are you kidding?? Of course I indicated why the "drink" thing was of
concern to me. I indicated that in my very first post on the matter in
fact (and in others since). ....
The Vince Bugliosi part must have thrown me off dealing with two machines.
He poses the question as if Oswald did go up to the second floor and
purchased the drink, that's why I wanted to know if you thought he purchased
it on the first instead of the second. If there was no drink purchased why
didn't he just state that there was no evidence that Oswald had in fact
purchased a drink?
Post by David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/1c48b1ff9fc98381
"Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom.
So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on 11/22/63. ...
Oswald's preferred beverage was available on the first floor; therefore,
why the need to go UPSTAIRS to the 2nd Floor to get a soft drink there
(which is what he told police at one point after his arrest)?" -- DVP;
05/02/2007
"All accounts prior to September 1964, indicate Oswald has a "drink"
during the Baker/Truly encounter..." <<<
Dead wrong. Neither Truly nor Baker told the WC that Oswald had a drink in
his hands during the lunchroom encounter. Why you continue to state
otherwise is a mystery.
The mystery is because of the conflict of purchasing a drink. VB's quesion about
the NEED to go to the second floor to buy one, does not indicate that he did
not have one during the Baker/Truly encounter. VB's position as yours was
not clear.

If Truly didn't see any drink, then he would not be giving an account of him having
one. If Baker didn't see any drink in his hands the idea and conflict of Oswald having any
type of drink in his hands would never have been formed, since they would never
have "made it up" that he did. They are the only two people indicated that saw
Oswald at this point in time. Any indication either true or false that Oswald had
a drink at this time has to come from either of these two men.
Post by David Von Pein
During a radio program on December 23, 1966, Albert Jenner, a former senior WC counsel,
said that when Baker saw Oswald in the lunchroom, Oswald was holding a Coke in his hand.
Said Jenner, "the first man this policeman saw, was Oswald with a bottle of Coke"
Why would Jenner, of the WC counsel, make such a statement if there was no basis of truth?
Post by David Von Pein
The fact that Oswald was holding a Coke when Baker confronted him in the lunchroom was one
of the details that Chief Jesse Curry of the Dallas police mentioned to reporters the day after the shooting.
Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?
Post by David Von Pein
As late as ten days later this detail was still being reported in major newspapers, such as
THE WASHINGTON POST"
The mystery is figuring out who is giving false statements about Oswald and this encounter.

jko
David Von Pein
2007-05-05 05:06:53 UTC
Permalink
"VB's position, as yours, was not clear." <<<
It's as clear as a bell. I certainly understood what he meant immediately
(even though, granted, it's being filtered through a reviewer--Tom
Mallon). But it's still quite clear to me.

It's obvious that the whole thing goes to potentially undercutting (even
more so) OSWALD'S OWN ALIBI that he used when he told the police he was on
the first floor at the time of the shooting, then went to the 2nd Floor to
get a drink.

VB's position (quite obiously, and why it isn't obvious to everybody, I
cannot fathom) is .... If Oswald were truly innocent as he claimed and had
been on the 1st Floor at 12:30, why did he feel the need to go to the 2nd
Floor to get a drink when a drink machine (with his favorite brand) was
right there on the first floor?
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-05 14:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"VB's position, as yours, was not clear." <<<
It's as clear as a bell. I certainly understood what he meant immediately
(even though, granted, it's being filtered through a reviewer--Tom
Mallon). But it's still quite clear to me.
It's obvious that the whole thing goes to potentially undercutting (even
more so) OSWALD'S OWN ALIBI that he used when he told the police he was on
the first floor at the time of the shooting, then went to the 2nd Floor to
get a drink.
VB's position (quite obiously, and why it isn't obvious to everybody, I
cannot fathom) is .... If Oswald were truly innocent as he claimed and had
been on the 1st Floor at 12:30, why did he feel the need to go to the 2nd
Floor to get a drink when a drink machine (with his favorite brand) was
right there on the first floor?
Both you and VB are asking a question that can only be answered by a dead man,
your question can't be answered, by anyone else. There is no way anyone can say
how or what Oswald was feeling at the time or explain an action that may not even
have happened.

jko
David Von Pein
2007-05-05 05:07:08 UTC
Permalink
"Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?" <<<
In short....I believe Baker saw NO COKE in Oswald's hands at 12:31 PM
on Nov. 22.

Baker told the WC that very thing ("nothing in hands"). And that
probable fact is corroborated by another witness, Roy Truly, who said
the very same thing.....

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a Coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

The "no drink at all" remark is near the very bottom of the above
transcript page.
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-05 14:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?" <<<
In short....I believe Baker saw NO COKE in Oswald's hands at 12:31 PM
on Nov. 22.
Baker told the WC that very thing ("nothing in hands"). And that
probable fact is corroborated by another witness, Roy Truly, who said
the very same thing.....
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a Coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
The "no drink at all" remark is near the very bottom of the above
transcript page.
Then do you believe Oswald's alleged comment is the source for this conflict.

I doubt you think somebody was trying to buy him some time or it is just some urban legend, continued
by officials such as Burnett.

My biggest objection to this whole case has always been how these types of conflicts have
been presented by both sides. The bottom line is accurate accounts on critical issues. This
"drinking a coke" issue if one such example.

jko
tomnln
2007-05-05 22:21:00 UTC
Permalink
WHY do people ignore Baker reported as being in TWO different positions when
he saw Oswald?

WHY do people ignore that Baker reported that he (Osweald) was in THREE
diffrerent positions
when Baker saw Oswald?
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?" <<<
In short....I believe Baker saw NO COKE in Oswald's hands at 12:31 PM
on Nov. 22.
Baker told the WC that very thing ("nothing in hands"). And that
probable fact is corroborated by another witness, Roy Truly, who said
the very same thing.....
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a Coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
The "no drink at all" remark is near the very bottom of the above
transcript page.
Then do you believe Oswald's alleged comment is the source for this conflict.
I doubt you think somebody was trying to buy him some time or it is just
some urban legend, continued
by officials such as Burnett.
My biggest objection to this whole case has always been how these types of conflicts have
been presented by both sides. The bottom line is accurate accounts on critical issues. This
"drinking a coke" issue if one such example.
jko
tomnln
2007-05-06 20:09:42 UTC
Permalink
TOO HOT TO HANDLE
Post by tomnln
WHY do people ignore Baker reported as being in TWO different positions
when he saw Oswald?
WHY do people ignore that Baker reported that he (Osweald) was in THREE
diffrerent positions when Baker saw Oswald?
Post by James K. Olmstead
Post by David Von Pein
"Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?" <<<
In short....I believe Baker saw NO COKE in Oswald's hands at 12:31 PM
on Nov. 22.
Baker told the WC that very thing ("nothing in hands"). And that
probable fact is corroborated by another witness, Roy Truly, who said
the very same thing.....
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a Coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
The "no drink at all" remark is near the very bottom of the above
transcript page.
Then do you believe Oswald's alleged comment is the source for this conflict.
I doubt you think somebody was trying to buy him some time or it is just
some urban legend, continued
by officials such as Burnett.
My biggest objection to this whole case has always been how these types of conflicts have
been presented by both sides. The bottom line is accurate accounts on
critical issues. This
"drinking a coke" issue if one such example.
jko
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-05 21:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?" <<<
In short....I believe Baker saw NO COKE in Oswald's hands at 12:31 PM
on Nov. 22.
Baker told the WC that very thing ("nothing in hands"). And that
probable fact is corroborated by another witness, Roy Truly, who said
the very same thing.....
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a Coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
The "no drink at all" remark is near the very bottom of the above
transcript page.
Explain please how the Hell Dulles even knew to bring up the subject of
a Coke? He could just as easily asked if Oswald was eating an apple.
Why a Coke? Why not a Dr. Pepper? Surely the CIA would know Oswald's
favorite soda.
David Von Pein
2007-05-06 03:31:10 UTC
Permalink
"Explain please how the Hell Dulles even knew to bring up the subject
of a Coke?" <<<

Answer -- Mrs. Robert Reid.
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-06 20:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Explain please how the Hell Dulles even knew to bring up the subject
of a Coke?" <<<
Answer -- Mrs. Robert Reid.
Details please. She whispered something into his ear?
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-05 22:24:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Was Curry lying or did he believe Oswald over Baker/Truly?" <<<
In short....I believe Baker saw NO COKE in Oswald's hands at 12:31 PM
on Nov. 22.
Baker told the WC that very thing ("nothing in hands"). And that
probable fact is corroborated by another witness, Roy Truly, who said
the very same thing.....
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a Coke?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No drink?
Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
The "no drink at all" remark is near the very bottom of the above
transcript page.
There is the heart of your problem. You just believe whatever the WC says.
David Von Pein
2007-05-05 05:40:50 UTC
Permalink
"The mystery is figuring out who is giving false statements about
Oswald and this {"Coke"} encounter." <<<

IMO, these "Coke" reports are probably a product of people MERGING
different pieces of evidence together...when such evidence shouldn't be
"merged".

E.G., People after the shooting hear that Oswald had a Coke on the second
floor within a couple of minutes of the assassination. They probably don't
know the EXACT timeline of the buying of that Coke by Oswald. And somehow
"Coke" and "Baker/Truly" get merged together and, voila, suddenly people
are reporting that "Baker saw LHO with a Coke".

But the WC record is very clear (and backed up by two witnesses, both
Baker &Truly)....neither man saw anything in Oswald's hands on the 2nd
Floor.
"If Truly didn't see any drink, then he would not be giving an account
of him having one." <<<

And just when did Truly EVER give an account of Oswald having one when
Truly saw LHO at 12:31 on 11/22?
James K. Olmstead
2007-05-05 14:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"The mystery is figuring out who is giving false statements about
Oswald and this {"Coke"} encounter." <<<
IMO, these "Coke" reports are probably a product of people MERGING
different pieces of evidence together...when such evidence shouldn't be
"merged".
E.G., People after the shooting hear that Oswald had a Coke on the second
floor within a couple of minutes of the assassination. They probably don't
know the EXACT timeline of the buying of that Coke by Oswald. And somehow
"Coke" and "Baker/Truly" get merged together and, voila, suddenly people
are reporting that "Baker saw LHO with a Coke".
But the WC record is very clear (and backed up by two witnesses, both
Baker &Truly)....neither man saw anything in Oswald's hands on the 2nd
Floor.
"If Truly didn't see any drink, then he would not be giving an account
of him having one." <<<
And just when did Truly EVER give an account of Oswald having one when
Truly saw LHO at 12:31 on 11/22?
You are taking the above out of context by cutting and snipping. I was showing
that besides Oswald, only Truly and Baker could have been the other sources for
any account that he had a drink.

If Oswald did not have a drink somebody is lying about having one before the
encounter. There are only three people to consider.....somebody is lying on this.

It's interesting here that you love to cut and snip qoutes (without credit to who made them)
since the 23 Sept 64 Baker statement is also worthless........it's is a poor cut and paste job, with
Baker's line initials and page signatures cut off....

There are no offical records (reporters record) of what was said by Oswald during
the various interogations....the issue is unresolved.

jko
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-04 15:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"It was a simple question asked to help understand DVP's concern over
where Oswald purchased the "drink". He does not indicate in any of his
comments to that point, on why this issue is any concern." <<<
Are you kidding?? Of course I indicated why the "drink" thing was of
concern to me. I indicated that in my very first post on the matter in
fact (and in others since). ....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/1c48b1ff9fc98381
"Vince Bugliosi, as usual, is 100% correct. A Dr. Pepper machine was
located on the first floor. A Coke machine was in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom.
So there were definitely TWO soda machines in the TSBD on 11/22/63. ...
Oswald's preferred beverage was available on the first floor; therefore,
why the need to go UPSTAIRS to the 2nd Floor to get a soft drink there
(which is what he told police at one point after his arrest)?" -- DVP;
05/02/2007
"All accounts prior to September 1964, indicate Oswald has a "drink"
during the Baker/Truly encounter..." <<<
Dead wrong. Neither Truly nor Baker told the WC that Oswald had a drink in
his hands during the lunchroom encounter. Why you continue to state
otherwise is a mystery.
Dead wrong. He is talking about the accounts prior to Baker's WC testimony.
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-02 14:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Fokes
"Doesn't strike me as a book one can read in a single sitting, or
perhaps even in the time allotted when one borrows a book from the
library!" <<<
You're right about this, of course. No way you can read it in one sitting.
I doubt even that Harriet Klausner (Amazon.com's #1 ranked reviewer, who
posts reviews of 10 or more books PER DAY at Amazon!), could read VB's
tome in a single sitting.
Well, at least it won't take her 20 years like you. And BTW, some
reviewers read the book before it is published.
Post by Peter Fokes
"I hope the print is not too small. It surely will weigh a ton on
one's lap if reading in bed." <<<
LOL. Good point.
But reading VB's tome in bed will be tough on a second level -- i.e., the
need to constantly reference the CD-ROM for endnotes and source notes. (I
assume, at any rate, that all footnotes and source info will be only
included on the CD-ROM; that's what I've read from at least 2 sources
anyway.)
And I, too, hope the print isn't ultra-tiny. The "densely typeset" comment
in Tom Mallon's review now tells me that even MORE CS&L from VB is on tap
in "RH" (enough acronyms to choke a horse there). ;)
RH=Revisionist History.
Post by Peter Fokes
I was kind of hoping for virtually the same type of "RH" type face and
book structure that Dale Myers employed in his first-class 1998 entry
"With Malice". It's a classy volume all the way.
"Will there be a paperback edition?" <<<
I've wondered that too. I have no knowledge of that at this moment.
I notice, however, that Mark Fuhrman's "A Simple Act Of Murder" is getting
a second printing and a re-release in softcover form in November 2007.
....
Not bad for a racist with a kooky theory, eh?
Post by Peter Fokes
http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Act-Murder-Mark-Fuhrman/dp/006072157X/ref=sr_1_2/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178069413&sr=8-2
And did you notice that the first edition of Fuhrman's book has gone into
the "Bargain Bin" at Amazon? Been there for a while now. ($7.99 US)
"I did want to get the First Season of Diagnosis Murder starring Dick
Van Dyke." <<<
You can always wait for that show to appear at Amazon...in their new
"Unbox Video" area. All episodes of "TDvDS" are currently there.....
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000O7V3XW
My review for that above page is pending. Amazon takes forever to post
stuff sometimes. I think it's an internal "conspiracy" against "LN"
reviewers! ;)
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-02 19:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
In addition.......
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200705u/kennedy-assassination
I am not impressed by a review filled with grammatical errors and straw
man arguments published by a magazine subsidized by the CIA.
David Von Pein
2007-05-03 04:19:31 UTC
Permalink
"Iam not impressed by a review filled with grammatical errors and
straw man arguments published by a magazine subsidized by the CIA.


Good for you.

And thanks for that update.

It was an excellent review by Mr. Mallon, btw. Although you (Tony) were
responding to a post re. a separate interview not about VB's book.

Anyway, Mallon's review was quite forthright and objective, IMO. He didn't
like a lot of stuff in the book....and said so. I guess "Mr. Strawman/Mr.
Nonsense" Marsh must've missed all of those negative comments, huh?

You would think the many negative comments (in a review about a book, btw,
that Marsh thought a short time ago would never, ever come out) would have
earned Mr. Mallon at least a couple of brownie points.

Guess I was wrong.
Anthony Marsh
2007-05-03 14:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
"Iam not impressed by a review filled with grammatical errors and
straw man arguments published by a magazine subsidized by the CIA.
Good for you.
And thanks for that update.
It was an excellent review by Mr. Mallon, btw. Although you (Tony) were
responding to a post re. a separate interview not about VB's book.
Anyway, Mallon's review was quite forthright and objective, IMO. He didn't
like a lot of stuff in the book....and said so. I guess "Mr. Strawman/Mr.
Nonsense" Marsh must've missed all of those negative comments, huh?
You would think the many negative comments (in a review about a book, btw,
that Marsh thought a short time ago would never, ever come out) would have
earned Mr. Mallon at least a couple of brownie points.
Guess I was wrong.
I am not impressed by debunking based on false information.
Peter Fokes
2007-05-02 01:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Von Pein
Bugliosi has a confidence that makes Schwarzenegger, or Popeye, seem
diffident.
Lol
Post by David Von Pein
He finds that "plain incompetence ... from the highest levels
on down, is endemic in our society,"
Even the Supreme Court it seems. He thought they made a terrible
decision re: the Bush-Gore election chad fiasco.
Post by David Von Pein
and he takes up arms against the
"pure myth" that one cannot prove a negative.
My goodness ....

I can imagine such an opinion would stir quite a debate in academia.

PF
paul seaton
2007-05-02 19:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by David Von Pein
Bugliosi has a confidence that makes Schwarzenegger, or Popeye, seem
diffident.
Lol
Post by David Von Pein
He finds that "plain incompetence ... from the highest levels
on down, is endemic in our society,"
Even the Supreme Court it seems. He thought they made a terrible
decision re: the Bush-Gore election chad fiasco.
Post by David Von Pein
and he takes up arms against the
"pure myth" that one cannot prove a negative.
My goodness ....
I can imagine such an opinion would stir quite a debate in academia.
Peter, it's perfectly possible to prove a negative.
The problem is, was, and always will be proving an *existential* negative
( ie that something *does not exist* ).
An example of the former would be something like "Prove Abe Lincoln is not
alive" which shouldn't give anyone too much trouble. An example of the
latter would be "Prove there are no creatures with 6 heads" - proving this
would require knowledge of every form of life in the universe & is thus
impossible.

It is indeed 'pure myth' ( or conventional unwisdom ) that 'you cannot prove
a negative'. The fact that so many people seem to think you can't when it's
glaringly obvious that you can is kinda worrying.

paul s
Post by Peter Fokes
PF
Peter Fokes
2007-05-02 20:34:02 UTC
Permalink
On 2 May 2007 15:22:28 -0400, "paul seaton"
Post by paul seaton
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by David Von Pein
Bugliosi has a confidence that makes Schwarzenegger, or Popeye, seem
diffident.
Lol
Post by David Von Pein
He finds that "plain incompetence ... from the highest levels
on down, is endemic in our society,"
Even the Supreme Court it seems. He thought they made a terrible
decision re: the Bush-Gore election chad fiasco.
Post by David Von Pein
and he takes up arms against the
"pure myth" that one cannot prove a negative.
My goodness ....
I can imagine such an opinion would stir quite a debate in academia.
Peter, it's perfectly possible to prove a negative.
The problem is, was, and always will be proving an *existential* negative
( ie that something *does not exist* ).
An example of the former would be something like "Prove Abe Lincoln is not
alive" which shouldn't give anyone too much trouble. An example of the
latter would be "Prove there are no creatures with 6 heads" - proving this
would require knowledge of every form of life in the universe & is thus
impossible.
It is indeed 'pure myth' ( or conventional unwisdom ) that 'you cannot prove
a negative'. The fact that so many people seem to think you can't when it's
glaringly obvious that you can is kinda worrying.
paul s
I agree. We can prove JFK is not alive. Exhume him!

( kidding aside )

Are you *The ORIGINAL PAUL SEATON*?

(Toffing hat for PS ... )

Long time no read ....

This debate recalls a bit of the Garrison trial of Clay Shaw.

At one point the following dialogue occurred:

THE COURT: My ruling is that you can't argue.

MR. DYMOND: I am not going to argue.

I will follow that ruling!

The judge's ruling followed fast on the heels of Mr Dymond's argument
that he was going to prove a negative:

"Now, it is our intention in the defense of this case to strike at the
very core of the State's case, that is, the alleged conspiratorial
meeting between David Ferrie, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Mr. Clay Shaw
(indicating).

We will show you that this alleged meeting was never even conceived
until after the death of David Ferrie, the last living barrier between
the State's hand-picked Defendant here and the tragedy of this
prosecution. When David Ferrie died, the roaches came out of the
woodwork.

Now, in a case of this kind when you are called upon to prove a
negative, which we in effect are, there are two courses of action that
can be taken by a defendant ordinarily. One is to prove that he was
elsewhere at the time of the alleged happening.

Let me say now that this would be impossible. First of all, never at
any stage of these proceedings has the State seen fit to set forth any
precise date upon which this meeting is supposed to have taken place,
and even if they had done that, Mr. Shaw would have been called upon
to go back three and a half years and account for his whereabouts at a
particular time. I don't have to tell you the impossibility of doing
such a task as that.

The other alternative that a defendant has is to prove that whoever
said that he was at such a meeting or committed such an act lies. And,
gentlemen, I stand here now and tell you that we will prove that the
man who claims this, Perry Raymond Russo, is a liar, a notoriety
seeking liar whose name does not deserve to be mentioned in the same
sentence with honesty, justice, and propriety. We will prove that to
you gentlemen.

Now, gentlemen, I think that at this stage it would be well for us to
go into the history of Perry Raymond Russo's rise from obscurity to
fame.

MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I am going to object at this time."


Of course, we both know how that trial turned out.


A commentator on another recent case, Duke rape case, has this to say:

"In short, the prosecution is trying to win its case upon the dubious
prospect of attempting to prove a negative, something that absolutely
has been forbidden in the historical annals of American and English
law.

I begin with the idea of "proving a negative." For example, I cannot
prove that I did not assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Yes, I can
argue that when the crime occurred, I was in the fifth grade class of
Mrs. Isles at Boothwyn Elementary School, which was more than 1,000
miles from the scene and that witnesses can vouch for me, but someone
always can claim that I lied."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson140.html


Whatever words I might utter in this matter would merely drift away as
so much ephemeral verbiage, so I shall refrain from saying anything.

PF



















PF
Post by paul seaton
Post by Peter Fokes
PF
paul seaton
2007-05-03 04:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Fokes
Whatever words I might utter in this matter would merely drift away as
so much ephemeral verbiage, so I shall refrain from saying anything.
Is still say you CAN prove a negative.

Or do I mean you can't not prove a non-negative ?

Tune in next week.....
Post by Peter Fokes
PF
PF
PF
Gerry Simone (O)
2007-05-04 04:34:19 UTC
Permalink
The WC said that they "couldn't prove a negative to a certainty" when they
explained that their conclusion could not be absolute. (That's why they
say that they couldn't find any credible evidence to the contrary but that
doesn't mean that such evidence doesn't exist). Isn't that the corollary
to proving that LHO was the sole assassin with absolute certainty?

Isn't this what they mean - the degree of certainty or precision in their
conclusion?
Post by paul seaton
Post by Peter Fokes
Post by David Von Pein
Bugliosi has a confidence that makes Schwarzenegger, or Popeye, seem
diffident.
Lol
Post by David Von Pein
He finds that "plain incompetence ... from the highest levels
on down, is endemic in our society,"
Even the Supreme Court it seems. He thought they made a terrible
decision re: the Bush-Gore election chad fiasco.
Post by David Von Pein
and he takes up arms against the
"pure myth" that one cannot prove a negative.
My goodness ....
I can imagine such an opinion would stir quite a debate in academia.
Peter, it's perfectly possible to prove a negative.
The problem is, was, and always will be proving an *existential* negative
( ie that something *does not exist* ).
An example of the former would be something like "Prove Abe Lincoln is not
alive" which shouldn't give anyone too much trouble. An example of the
latter would be "Prove there are no creatures with 6 heads" - proving this
would require knowledge of every form of life in the universe & is thus
impossible.
It is indeed 'pure myth' ( or conventional unwisdom ) that 'you cannot prove
a negative'. The fact that so many people seem to think you can't when it's
glaringly obvious that you can is kinda worrying.
paul s
Post by Peter Fokes
PF
Gerry Simone (O)
2007-05-04 04:35:18 UTC
Permalink
I will pre-order this book (thanks to Peter Foke's previous post).

What's the fuss about the Coke vs. Dr. Pepper?

It would have taken Oswald longer to get to the 1st floor, even longer to
go from the 1st floor to the 2nd if he came down from the 6th.

Wasn't he actually seen by a machine with a bottle in his hand? Who cares
what he was drinking? He still had to get there quickly if he came down
from the 6th floor after doing what he was accused of.

Am I missing something here?
Post by David Von Pein
EXCERPTS OF A PRE-RELEASE REVIEW FOR VINCENT BUGLIOSI'S JFK BOOK,
"RECLAIMING HISTORY";
APPEARING IN "THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY" (June 2007 Issue);
THOMAS MALLON (Author of "Mrs. Paine's Garage")
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200706/mallon-JFK
===================================
"The most exhaustive book yet written about the Kennedy assassination
should lay the conspiracy theories to rest once and for all-but it
won't."
===================================
"Vincent Bugliosi, the assistant district attorney who put Charles
Manson away and later produced the most merciless book on O.J. Simpson
('Outrage'), has in one way or another been working on 'Reclaiming
History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy' for 21 years,
ever since he acted as the prosecutor in an elaborate mock trial of
Oswald that was filmed in London and included Ruth Paine among its
"witnesses." Bugliosi got a conviction and never really left the case.
The result is a text far larger and heavier than any that Oswald may
have handled in the hours before he pointed his gun out a sixth-floor
window of the book depository. Indeed, 'Reclaiming History', whose
first draft was handwritten on legal pads, is longer than the Warren
Report, William Manchester's 'The Death of a President', and Gerald
Posner's 'Case Closed'-combined.
After putting the book's two sets of footnotes (which run 1,128 pages)
onto a CD-ROM, the publisher, W. W. Norton, managed to get the
principal 1,664 densely typeset pages into a single volume, no doubt
by calling on the same compressive binding skills that allow the
company to produce its massive well-known literary anthologies.
'Reclaiming History' is a magnificent and, in many ways, appalling
achievement, a work that, for all the author's liveliness and
pugnacity, is destined to be more referenced than read. Bugliosi
insists that, in the face of America's widespread and misplaced belief
in the existence of a conspiracy against JFK's life, "overkill in this
book is historically necessary."
This undue elaboration includes, one supposes, the work's primer on
the civil-rights movement (as context for Kennedy's own activity in
that realm); its long history of the Mafia that Jack Ruby was not part
of; nine pages on the Bay of Pigs invasion that did not motivate Fidel
Castro to kill Kennedy; and four paragraphs on the oil-depletion
allowance, whose reduction, unsought by Kennedy, did not drive the
Texas oilman H. L. Hunt to murder the president.
If there was no second gunman, there was, Bugliosi proves, a second
soda machine in the book depository, which undermines Oswald's claim
of having gone, minutes after the assassination, from the first floor
to the second in search of a bottle of pop. (Moreover, his preferred
brand, Dr. Pepper, was in the first-floor machine, not the second.)
Bugliosi also corrects one account claiming that in 1969, it took a
New Orleans jury only 45 minutes to acquit Clay Shaw, the man Jim
Garrison framed for Kennedy's murder. (It took the jury 54 minutes.)
And Bugliosi writes that my own book {"Mrs. Paine's Garage"}, while
correctly assessing a piece of his strategy in the London mock trial,
has him "beaming with delight" over Paine's testimony, whereas in fact
he responded with only "a measured smile."
Bugliosi has a confidence that makes Schwarzenegger, or Popeye, seem
diffident. He finds that "plain incompetence ... from the highest levels
on down, is endemic in our society," and he takes up arms against the
"pure myth" that one cannot prove a negative. "I am never elliptical
and always state the obvious," he declares, not without charm.
He has great hopes for "the stature of this book," which would derive
chiefly from its ability "to turn the percentages around in the
debate," a reversal that would leave 75 percent of Americans believing
Oswald acted on his own and only 19 percent thinking there was a
conspiracy to kill Kennedy. "My only master and my only mistress are
the facts and objectivity," Bugliosi declares, as if once more being
sworn in at the DA's office in Los Angeles.
In at least one way, he's up against both sides, CT and LN,
simultaneously. When Gerald Posner published 'Case Closed' in 1993-two
years after belief in a Kennedy-assassination conspiracy had its
widest and wildest dissemination with the release of Oliver Stone's
'JFK'-the book received a tremendously positive response, at least in
the mainstream media.
It may not have shifted those percentages, but its argument that
Oswald acted alone-of which the author became convinced only midway
through his labors-had a kind of weird freshness, given that the
Warren Report, for most of the 30 years since its appearance, had
attracted fewer defenders than the tax code. So, isn't Bugliosi
writing 'Case Still Closed', however many steroids he may have pumped
into the original orthodoxy?
Not at all, he argues. For starters, one needs a law-enforcement
background, not just Posner's lawyerly one, to make sense of
everything. Posner may have accomplished a few things-such as helping
to knock down the actuarially risible belief that there have been a
hundred or so "mysterious deaths" among people who supposedly knew too
much-but by Bugliosi's lights, Posner's methods are sometimes as
slippery as the CTs'. He accuses his LN predecessor of distortion and
credit-grabbing, especially when it comes to rehabilitating the single-
bullet theory (Bugliosi prefers calling it a "fact").
In a passage that reads like a memo to his own publisher, arguing for
the novelty of what he's doing, Bugliosi writes that his is "the first
anti-conspiracy 'book'," since all Posner's does is take an "anti-
conspiracy 'position'," devoting a mere "8 percent" of its measly 607
pages to knocking down conspiracist notions.
There's no question that Bugliosi succeeds in scorching the CT terrain
with ferocious, even definitive, plausibility. He also, by the time
his admirable 2,792 pages are through, drowns himself in a kind of
ghastly historical irony.
Before he can begin dispatching the CTs' frauds and follies, Bugliosi
must deal with Lee Harvey Oswald himself, who remains a ghost in even
the more fantastic machines of the conspiracists. Across 275 pages of
biography, and another 316 of narrative devoted to the climactic "Four
Days in November," Bugliosi's Oswald, for all his deprivations and
dyslexia, emerges as an intelligent, ill-humored, and remarkably
strong-willed young man, one who lapped up ideology and had delusions
of attaining power but was otherwise lacking in ordinary appetites "or
any of the myriad personal characteristics or eccentricities that are
so very human."
Oswald spent his childhood tagging along on the aggrieved
peregrinations of his mother, Marguerite, who would one day take
offense when her son was denied burial in Arlington National Cemetery.
But Bugliosi's sympathies, which can be surprisingly tender and
thoughtful, extend even to her and to the attempts she made to provide
for her sons in a world she believed was dead set against her.
Marguerite can, in fact, be viewed as the mother not only of Oswald
but of CTs everywhere.
The author gives proper centrality both to Oswald's near-success in
killing the far-right-wing General Edwin Walker in the spring of 1963-
an assault much more carefully planned than Oswald's strike against
Kennedy-and to his humiliating rebuff, that September in Mexico City,
by the Soviet Embassy and the Cuban consulate, when he tried to secure
a visa for travel to Havana. In the weeks before the assassination, he
was a man running out of flamboyant gestures.
Bugliosi says that he doesn't read fiction, but he favors what might
be called a novelist's view of Oswald over any unified prosecutorial
theory of the case and perpetrator.
The same Oswald who played with his children and Paine's after
rewrapping his rifle the night before the assassination would 18 hours
later fire an extra shot into the head of Officer Tippit, who had
already fallen helpless to the pavement; the same Oswald who killed
the leader of the free world could complain a day later about the
denial of his "hygienic rights" (he wanted a shower).
These were the "personal characteristics or eccentricities" that made
him "so very human," and Bugliosi, to his credit, is never rattled or
deterred by their violent juxtaposition.
Bugliosi notes that incompetence is "so very common in life," so it's
not surprising that he finds some "investigative sloppiness" to have
occurred even in an inquiry headed by a chief justice of the United
States. But occasional clumsiness-amid far more exhaustiveness and
skill-does not equal cover-up (the usual CT charge) by the Warren
Commission, whose august members shrank from fighting back when their
report came under attack.
Bugliosi also analyzes Kennedy's much-flawed autopsy and finds that
its "main conclusion" still stands. He even praises the Dallas police
who, but for the matter of allowing Oswald to be killed, succeeded in
swiftly compiling a mass of evidence against him. Captain Will Fritz,
who'd once helped hunt down Bonnie and Clyde and who conducted much of
Oswald's interrogation, emerges as a kind of low-key hero.
Toward the assassination's host of investigators, Bugliosi displays a
forbearance of human frailty and simple mistakes. What he doesn't
abide are lapses in logic, against which he displays a prosecutor's
natural preference for cross-examination over direct.
Once or twice his own logic flags, and he explains away some
exculpatory-seeming fact as part of Oswald's attempt to construct an
alibi; but much more typically, for dozens-no, hundreds-of pages at a
time, he exhilarates the reader with rat-a-tat annihilations of
others' false premises and shaky inferences.
He makes clear, for instance, that Kennedy's Parkland doctors, whose
memories of their work on the president are much loved by many CTs,
are bad witnesses; on November 22, 1963, they were making a futile
attempt to resuscitate the president, not to do ballistic analysis.
(What's more, they were largely young and inexperienced, because most
of their senior colleagues were in Galveston at a medical conference.)
Similarly, and with all due respect, Governor Connally, who never
believed the single-bullet theory, was hardly in a position to be a
careful observer while that bullet was working its way through him.
And to take one more example: On Sunday morning, November 24, Oswald
helped delay his own transfer from the Dallas city lockup to the
county jail by requesting a different shirt, thereby giving Ruby time
to arrive at the police station and kill him-an unwitting consequence,
Bugliosi reasons, "unless Oswald was a party to the conspiracy to
murder himself."
Worse than gaps in reasoning, however, are instances of bad faith,
which make Bugliosi livid. He will toss the bones of compliments to
any number of CTs-Walt Brown has a "good mind," Harold Weisberg is a
"decent rascal," and Penn Jones Jr. was "motivated by patriotism"-but
Lord help those he finds manipulating quotations, telling outright
lies, or depending on portions of the Warren Report when they're
otherwise trashing it.
Oliver Stone, always the ne plus ultra of disingenuousness, is by
Bugliosi's reckoning guilty of a "cultural crime" committed through a
thousand manipulations, among them the use of a smoke machine to
generate a puff of rifle smoke from the Grassy Knoll that 'JFK'
presents as being visible to people in Dealey Plaza.
In the course of all his refutations, Bugliosi frequently writes as if
he were delivering the world's longest jury summation. He asks the
"folks" who are reading to "please get this," or to sit tight and
"wait awhile" for an important point he's making.
He eventually runs out of sarcastic formulations for what he's up
against-the "room temperature" IQs required to believe stuff that's as
crazy as the idea that "alligators can do the polka"-but in the end it
is the weight of Bugliosi's analysis, not his rhetoric, that crushes a
long list of libels and suppositions: the sightings of a "Second
Oswald"; the "acoustic evidence" (from a police Dictabelt) that some
believe recorded four shots instead of the Warren Report's three; the
CT assertion that Kennedy's head immediately moved backward (it
didn't) when he was fatally shot from the front (he wasn't).
These last matters are at least potentially fundamental. And yet, in
order to make this "the first anti-conspiracy 'book'," Bugliosi-who
writes that "any denial of Oswald's guilt is not worthy of serious
discussion"-spends a vast acreage of print debunking the fringiest and
most lunatic theories, marshaling facts to prove that Kennedy's corpse
wasn't altered ("the conspirators would have needed at least three
separate teams of plastic surgeons waiting in hiding"); that the
Zapruder film wasn't tampered with; that the president wasn't
accidentally shot from behind by a Secret Service agent; and that the
shiny "Badge Man," who in one photograph appears to be perched on the
Grassy Knoll, is probably a Coke bottle. (Not Dr. Pepper?)
All this disputation may add heft, but it's not likely to give
'Reclaiming History' the "stature" that Bugliosi seeks for it. Its
effect, peculiarly, is to magnify much of the nonsense on this subject
that has cluttered the public mind for more than 40 years.
The writing and preservation of history is no less replete with
paradox than history itself. James L. Swanson, author of the recent
book Manhunt, about the search for Lincoln's assassin, nicely argues
that the restored Ford's Theatre is ultimately more a monument to John
Wilkes Booth than to Abraham Lincoln. Similarly, in knocking down the
conspiracists' shantytown of constructs, Bugliosi has had to save the
village in order to destroy it, and his book, if it has the longevity
it deserves, will be a kind of eternal flame running on the very gases
it thought it had capped."
=============
[END REVIEW.]
=============
A very nice review by Mr. Mallon, IMO. The two portions I like the
1.) The information that Bugliosi reveals about there being a soda
machine (with Dr. Pepper availability) on the FIRST floor of the Book
Depository on the day of the assassination. This is something I had no
knowledge of whatsoever. I had thought that the ONLY soda machine in
the TSBD was on the second floor.
And I have no doubt that Vince has checked his facts regarding this
first-floor soda machine (and the fact that the first-floor machine--
not the one on the 2nd Floor--offered Oswald's preferred drink, Dr.
Pepper).
One of the main reasons I have no qualms about believing this
"If there's one thing I take pride in, it's that I never, ever make a
charge without supporting it. You might not agree with me, but I
invariably offer an enormous amount of support for my position." --
VINCENT BUGLIOSI
2.) [Mallon On] -- "But Lord help those he {VB} finds manipulating
quotations, telling outright lies, or depending on portions of the
Warren Report when they're otherwise trashing it. Oliver Stone, always
the ne plus ultra of disingenuousness, is by Bugliosi's reckoning
guilty of a "cultural crime" committed through a thousand
manipulations, among them the use of a smoke machine to generate a
puff of rifle smoke from the Grassy Knoll that JFK presents as being
visible to people in Dealey Plaza." -- [/Mallon Off]
Hooray for Vincent T. Bugliosi here! That's just exactly the type of
Stone-bashing I was hoping for in "Reclaiming History". ....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2fa93b6e293e5e96
I'm looking forward to reading the entire Stone-wrecking chapter,
which should have me smiling from ear to ear for days (or weeks).
Thank you, Mr. Mallon, for an excellent and well-written (and
objective) review of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of
President John F. Kennedy".
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0bcdfcf65f6cb26f
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