TGV Service Between Bern and Paris in 1991?

[Rhino]

I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.

It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time. Other parts
of the journey may also have been at normal or at least sub-TGV speeds.
I really don't recall any more.

I DO remember that even when the train seemed to be moving at its
quickest, it didn't seem to be going as fast as I had expected. But that
is probably because I had inappropriate expectations. I think I expected
to see the world looking blurry and for the train to be moving from
horizon to horizon in seconds; it certainly didn't go that fast.

I'm basically just trying to understand where the train went - I don't
recall any stops but there may well have been a very few - and how fast
the train was going at each stage of the journey.

I'm hoping that this newsgroup is full of train exports who can answer
this kind of question easily ;-)

[iMark]

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.
It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time. Other parts
of the journey may also have been at normal or at least sub-TGV speeds.
I really don't recall any more.
I DO remember that even when the train seemed to be moving at its
quickest, it didn't seem to be going as fast as I had expected. But that
is probably because I had inappropriate expectations. I think I expected
to see the world looking blurry and for the train to be moving from
horizon to horizon in seconds; it certainly didn't go that fast.
I'm basically just trying to understand where the train went - I don't
recall any stops but there may well have been a very few - and how fast
the train was going at each stage of the journey.
I'm hoping that this newsgroup is full of train exports who can answer
this kind of question easily ;-)

I don't think a lot has changed since 1991. The TGV's were introduced in
1987.

Today the services are branded TGV Lyria, in 1991 they were branded
EuroCity.

More information on the routing:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyria

From Bern your train would have been routed via Neuchâtel, the border
near Pontarlier, Frasne, Dole and Dijon. Only the last stretch of the
journey (from the junction at Aisy-s.-Armaçon to just outside Paris Gare
de Lyon) would have been on the LGV Sud-Est.

For a map see here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Lignes_ferroviaires_B
ourgogne_Franche_Comte.svg

So regular line speeds (140-160 km/h) would have been reached on the
classic rail lines in both Switzerland and France. Back in 1991 the
maximum speed of the TGV's would have 270 km/h on the LGV. I think about
an hour was shaved off the journey time between Dijon and Paris when the
TGV's were introduced in 1987.

The TGV's used on the route to Switzerland via Dijon are the only ones
that haven't been upgraded to 300 km/h from the batch of TGV's that was
introduced in 1981.

[Erwan David]

Post by iMark

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.
It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time. Other parts
of the journey may also have been at normal or at least sub-TGV speeds.
I really don't recall any more.
I DO remember that even when the train seemed to be moving at its
quickest, it didn't seem to be going as fast as I had expected. But that
is probably because I had inappropriate expectations. I think I expected
to see the world looking blurry and for the train to be moving from
horizon to horizon in seconds; it certainly didn't go that fast.
I'm basically just trying to understand where the train went - I don't
recall any stops but there may well have been a very few - and how fast
the train was going at each stage of the journey.
I'm hoping that this newsgroup is full of train exports who can answer
this kind of question easily ;-)

I don't think a lot has changed since 1991. The TGV's were introduced in
1987.

It might be routed through Strasbourg and Basel since TGV Est opened.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Erwan David

Post by iMark

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.
It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time. Other parts
of the journey may also have been at normal or at least sub-TGV speeds.
I really don't recall any more.
I DO remember that even when the train seemed to be moving at its
quickest, it didn't seem to be going as fast as I had expected. But that
is probably because I had inappropriate expectations. I think I expected
to see the world looking blurry and for the train to be moving from
horizon to horizon in seconds; it certainly didn't go that fast.
I'm basically just trying to understand where the train went - I don't
recall any stops but there may well have been a very few - and how fast
the train was going at each stage of the journey.
I'm hoping that this newsgroup is full of train exports who can answer
this kind of question easily ;-)

I don't think a lot has changed since 1991. The TGV's were introduced in
1987.

It might be routed through Strasbourg and Basel since TGV Est opened.

AFAIK, Bern has always been served via Dijon and Neuchatel. The LGV Est was used for Paris Est - Strasbourg - Basel - Zürich, but when the LGV Rhine-Rhone opened, these were diverted, so Basel and Zürich services are now routed on the LGV Rhine-Rhone between Mulhouse and Dijon. I suppose it makes sense to concentrate all of the Lyria (the joint venture between SNCF and SBB-CFF-FFS) services on a single station in Paris, but it makes life less convenient for connecting with Eurostar.

Robin

[Rhino]

Post by iMark

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.
It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time. Other parts
of the journey may also have been at normal or at least sub-TGV speeds.
I really don't recall any more.
I DO remember that even when the train seemed to be moving at its
quickest, it didn't seem to be going as fast as I had expected. But that
is probably because I had inappropriate expectations. I think I expected
to see the world looking blurry and for the train to be moving from
horizon to horizon in seconds; it certainly didn't go that fast.
I'm basically just trying to understand where the train went - I don't
recall any stops but there may well have been a very few - and how fast
the train was going at each stage of the journey.
I'm hoping that this newsgroup is full of train exports who can answer
this kind of question easily ;-)

I don't think a lot has changed since 1991. The TGV's were introduced in
1987.
Today the services are branded TGV Lyria, in 1991 they were branded
EuroCity.

I spent a month in Europe on that trip and used rail quite a bit; I
remember seeing various signs and brochures referring to EuroCity.

Post by iMark
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyria
From Bern your train would have been routed via Neuchâtel, the border
near Pontarlier, Frasne, Dole and Dijon. Only the last stretch of the
journey (from the junction at Aisy-s.-Armaçon to just outside Paris Gare
de Lyon) would have been on the LGV Sud-Est.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Lignes_ferroviaires_B
ourgogne_Franche_Comte.svg
So regular line speeds (140-160 km/h) would have been reached on the
classic rail lines in both Switzerland and France. Back in 1991 the
maximum speed of the TGV's would have 270 km/h on the LGV. I think about
an hour was shaved off the journey time between Dijon and Paris when the
TGV's were introduced in 1987.
The TGV's used on the route to Switzerland via Dijon are the only ones
that haven't been upgraded to 300 km/h from the batch of TGV's that was
introduced in 1981.

So I was probably doing 270 km/h on the fastest stretches; interesting.
Do you know which parts of the journey would have been at regular line
speeds and which parts would have been on TGV lines? There have
evidently been some very substantial expansions in TGV service since 1991.

It was certainly interesting to have taken a TGV train. I expect I paid
somewhat more for it than for a ride on a regular train but I just
wanted to be able to say I'd ridden on the fastest train in the world -
or at least the fastest in Europe. (I think the French TGV trains were
said to be the fastest at the time. Or was it the Japanese bullet trains?).

The ride was smooth and the car was comfortable so I certainly had no
complaints about the experience.

[iMark]

Post by Rhino
So I was probably doing 270 km/h on the fastest stretches; interesting.
Do you know which parts of the journey would have been at regular line
speeds and which parts would have been on TGV lines? There have
evidently been some very substantial expansions in TGV service since 1991.

Only on the last stretch from the junction north of Dijon to just south
of Paris.

The daily direct TGV 9824 takes 4h42 from Bern to Paris Gare de Lyon.
Same route as back in 1991 and similar journey times.

Today you can travel faster from Bern ot Paris Gare de Lyon by changing
at Basel SBB. The TGV's from Basel to Paris are now routed via the LGV
Rhin-Rhône, which opened in 2011.
Total journey time from Bern to Paris is just over 4h.

Post by Rhino
It was certainly interesting to have taken a TGV train. I expect I paid
somewhat more for it than for a ride on a regular train but I just
wanted to be able to say I'd ridden on the fastest train in the world -
or at least the fastest in Europe. (I think the French TGV trains were
said to be the fastest at the time. Or was it the Japanese bullet trains?).

In 1991 the fastest trains in Europe ran in France with speeds up to 300
km/h on the LGV Atlantique, which had opened in 1990. Your TGV ran up to
270 km/h.
I think the Japanese Shinkansen back then did speeds up to 250 km/h, but
I don't know exactly.
The first generation ICE ran up to 250 km/h in Germany.
The first AVE line in Spain opened in 1992 with a speed of 300 km/h.
If you had done this trip a year earlier, you could say that you
travelled on the fastest train in the world.

Post by Rhino
The ride was smooth and the car was comfortable so I certainly had no
complaints about the experience.

Exactly as I remember my first journey on a TGV in France. I think I
made a trip from Lyon to Paris around 1984.

[Rhino]

Post by iMark

Post by Rhino
So I was probably doing 270 km/h on the fastest stretches; interesting.
Do you know which parts of the journey would have been at regular line
speeds and which parts would have been on TGV lines? There have
evidently been some very substantial expansions in TGV service since 1991.

Only on the last stretch from the junction north of Dijon to just south
of Paris.
The daily direct TGV 9824 takes 4h42 from Bern to Paris Gare de Lyon.
Same route as back in 1991 and similar journey times.
Today you can travel faster from Bern ot Paris Gare de Lyon by changing
at Basel SBB. The TGV's from Basel to Paris are now routed via the LGV
Rhin-Rhône, which opened in 2011.
Total journey time from Bern to Paris is just over 4h.

Post by Rhino
It was certainly interesting to have taken a TGV train. I expect I paid
somewhat more for it than for a ride on a regular train but I just
wanted to be able to say I'd ridden on the fastest train in the world -
or at least the fastest in Europe. (I think the French TGV trains were
said to be the fastest at the time. Or was it the Japanese bullet trains?).

In 1991 the fastest trains in Europe ran in France with speeds up to 300
km/h on the LGV Atlantique, which had opened in 1990. Your TGV ran up to
270 km/h.
I think the Japanese Shinkansen back then did speeds up to 250 km/h, but
I don't know exactly.
The first generation ICE ran up to 250 km/h in Germany.
The first AVE line in Spain opened in 1992 with a speed of 300 km/h.
If you had done this trip a year earlier, you could say that you
travelled on the fastest train in the world.

Post by Rhino
The ride was smooth and the car was comfortable so I certainly had no
complaints about the experience.

Exactly as I remember my first journey on a TGV in France. I think I
made a trip from Lyon to Paris around 1984.

Thank you VERY much for all the helpful information about the trip I
took in 1991, iMark. I'm overdue for a trip back to see what's changed
since my last time in Europe but it might be another year or two before
I manage that ;-) Maybe I'll get a chance to ride the faster trains that
you have now....

[Recliner]

Post by iMark
In 1991 the fastest trains in Europe ran in France with speeds up to 300
km/h on the LGV Atlantique, which had opened in 1990. Your TGV ran up to
270 km/h.
I think the Japanese Shinkansen back then did speeds up to 250 km/h, but
I don't know exactly.
The first generation ICE ran up to 250 km/h in Germany.
The first AVE line in Spain opened in 1992 with a speed of 300 km/h.
If you had done this trip a year earlier, you could say that you
travelled on the fastest train in the world.

Post by Rhino
The ride was smooth and the car was comfortable so I certainly had no
complaints about the experience.

Exactly as I remember my first journey on a TGV in France. I think I
made a trip from Lyon to Paris around 1984.

Thank you VERY much for all the helpful information about the trip I took
in 1991, iMark. I'm overdue for a trip back to see what's changed since
my last time in Europe but it might be another year or two before I
manage that ;-) Maybe I'll get a chance to ride the faster trains that you have now....

Yes, you can now travel at 320 km/h on some European trains. It's just as
quiet, smooth and uneventful as 270 km/h was.

[frank paulsen]

Post by iMark
km/h on the LGV Atlantique, which had opened in 1990. Your TGV ran up to
270 km/h.
I think the Japanese Shinkansen back then did speeds up to 250 km/h, but
I don't know exactly.
The first generation ICE ran up to 250 km/h in Germany.

280km/h from June 1991 to ~2002. there are no more schedules for speeds
higher than 250km/h due to changed security considerations.

Post by iMark
The first AVE line in Spain opened in 1992 with a speed of 300 km/h.
If you had done this trip a year earlier, you could say that you
travelled on the fastest train in the world.

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by iMark
The TGV's used on the route to Switzerland via Dijon are the only ones
that haven't been upgraded to 300 km/h from the batch of TGV's that was
introduced in 1981.

Which explains why those TGV sets are being retired right now as we
speak. All other trains on the LGV Sud-Est run at 300 km/h so the ones
that can't keep up with that speed are eating too much space on the
line. Excluding accidents, they are the first TGV sets to be retired.

[Richard]

Post by iMark

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.

[...]
I don't think a lot has changed since 1991. The TGV's were introduced in
1987.
Today the services are branded TGV Lyria, in 1991 they were branded
EuroCity.

Memories! I used the Zurich - Paris TGVs in 1998-9, when they were
called Ligne de Cœur.

Post by iMark
From Bern your train would have been routed via Neuchâtel, the border
near Pontarlier, Frasne, Dole and Dijon. Only the last stretch of the
journey (from the junction at Aisy-s.-Armaçon to just outside Paris Gare
de Lyon) would have been on the LGV Sud-Est.

I really enjoyed that route -- it was the same from Neuchâtel -- quite
picturesque, particularly on the French side. And you could see the
odd refurbished TEE train set in the sidings near the border, I don't
think they lasted for long after that. Talking of the border, the
Lyria web site says that "your papers!" are still demanded. I thought
that had ended a few years ago.

Richard.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Richard
I really enjoyed that route -- it was the same from Neuchâtel -- quite
picturesque, particularly on the French side. And you could see the
odd refurbished TEE train set in the sidings near the border, I don't
think they lasted for long after that. Talking of the border, the
Lyria web site says that "your papers!" are still demanded. I thought
that had ended a few years ago.

I've done Zürich - Paris (in both directions) a number of times since Switzerland joined Schengen, and I have never been asked to show anything other than a valid ticket in that time. Of all the CH-EU train trips I've made in the last few years, I've only been checked once, which was irritatingly at somthing like 02.00 on the Amsterdam - Zürich CNL a couple of years ago.

Robin

[U***@web.de]

Post by Richard
Talking of the border, the
Lyria web site says that "your papers!" are still demanded. I thought
that had ended a few years ago.

Yes and no. There are customs checks at the Swiss borders.

Best regards, ULF

[U***@web.de]

Hello,

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.
It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time. Other parts
of the journey may also have been at normal or at least sub-TGV speeds.

The mountain parts of the line are quite slow. The Val de Travers line might have been upgraded later. Also TGV PSE trcourant were quite weak under 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz.

Best regards, ULF

[U***@web.de]

Hello again,

Post by Rhino
I took a TGV train between Bern, Switzerland and Paris in late summer
1991. I'm very curious to know what the exact route would have been and
if the entire trip would was at TGV speeds.
It is entirely possible that the first part of the trip from Bern to
some point in France was at normal rail speeds at that time.

See http://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=&lat=46.916503267244835&lon=6.4263153076171875&zoom=10&style=maxspeed

Best regards, ULF