Received: from localhost (HELO mail.python.org) (127.0.0.1)
by albatross.python.org with SMTP; 04 Jun 2014 14:17:22 +0200
Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (unknown
[IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a])
(using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS
for <python-***@python.org>; Wed, 4 Jun 2014 14:17:22 +0200 (CEST)
Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id y10so8159955wgg.1
for <python-***@python.org>; Wed, 04 Jun 2014 05:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
:cc:content-type;
bh=nBLeMBOukPnGhX6AsCeHiZDfkwBMfClboNh1RbVGNOM=;
b=TC1NcbP/ihxmoSUYEP8MmVedfyWsCFjwRg3/5mNzpXEVwS33I6UDkPaPFytAvU1zcc
wdc9LP2+TzHKj1NBTfTfuBouFTiPDB982umzXps+BDJohm89DyZOOZsb0AlOReaHsMUi
KzKf3TUDbfTNoJrOoT++BaC/S/UCR2oR5h7ZsjWwhtDWnieuguvsqJ3FWDZ9KxGE/u4d
tHDBPRpw1gMYhX2R3xkXRgO3aY+By40WsPqx61uuCjzq5ggFtMUcUvJItGOzyay2gEr3
nwbnxwsu2TXIisEUxTOLXAA4gLcXus5CkyUIu+v3A96eebXsJt+o2RTzRnZHdCWtM4D8
HhbA==
X-Received: by 10.194.92.176 with SMTP id cn16mr69440057wjb.43.1401884236695;
Wed, 04 Jun 2014 05:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.194.202.230 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jun 2014 05:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <***@x34f>
X-BeenThere: python-***@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Python core developers <python-dev.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev>,
<mailto:python-dev-***@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:python-***@python.org>
List-Help: <mailto:python-dev-***@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev>,
<mailto:python-dev-***@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: python-dev-bounces+python-python-dev=***@python.org
Sender: "Python-Dev"
<python-dev-bounces+python-python-dev=***@python.org>
Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/147916>
If we're voting I think representing Unicode internally in micropython
as utf-8 with O(N) indexing is a great idea, partly because I'm not
sure indexing into strings is a good idea - lots of Unicode code
points don't make sense by themselves; see also grapheme clusters. It
would probably work great.
On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:49 AM, Paul Sokolovsky <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2014 20:53:46 +1000
> Chris Angelico <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Paul Sokolovsky <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > And I'm saying that not to discourage Unicode addition to
>> > MicroPython, but to hint that "force-force" approach implemented by
>> > CPython3 and causing rage and split in the community is not
>> > appreciated.
>>
>> FWIW, it's Python 3 (the language) and not CPython 3.x (the
>> implementation) that specifies Unicode strings in this way.
>
> Yeah, but it's CPython what dictates how language evolves (some people
> even think that it dictates how language should be implemented!), so all
> good parts belong to Python3, and all bad parts - to CPython3,
> right? ;-)
>
>> I don't
>> know why it has to cause a split in the community; this is the one way
>> to make sure *everyone's* strings work perfectly, rather than having
>> ASCII strings work fine and others start tripping over problems in
>> various APIs.
>
> It did cause split in the community, that's the fact, that's why
> Python2 and Python3 are at the respective positions. Anyway, I'm not
> interested in participating in that split, I did not yet uttered my
> opinion on that publicly enough, so I seized a chance to drop some
> witty remarks, but I don't want to start yet another Unicode flame.
>
>
>
> So, let's please be back to Unicode storage representation in
> MicroPython. So, https://github.com/micropython/micropython/issues/657
> discussed technical aspects, in a recent mail on this list I expressed
> my opinion why following CPython way is not productive (for development
> satisfaction and evolution of Python community, to be explicit).
>
> Final argument I would have is that you certainly can implement Unicode
> support the PEP393 way - it would be enormous help and would be gladly
> accepted. The question, how useful it will be for MicroPython. It
> certainly will be useful to report passing of testsuites. But will it
> be *really* used?
>
> For microcontroller board, it might be too heavy (put simple, with it,
> people will be able to do less (== heap running out sooner)), than
> without it, so one may expect it to be disabled by default. Then POSIX
> port is there surely not to let people replace "python" command
> with "micropython" and run Django, but to let people develop and debug
> their apps with more comfort than on embedded board. So, it should
> behave close to MCU version, and would follow with MCU choice
> re: Unicode.
>
> That's actually the reason why I keep up this discussion - not for the
> sake of argument or to bash Python3's Unicode choices. With recent
> MicroPython announcement, we surely looked for more people to
> contribute to its development. But then we (or at least I can speak for
> myself), would like to make sure that these contribution are actually
> the most useful ones (for both MicroPython, and Python community in
> general, which gets more choices, rather than just getting N% smaller
> CPython rewrite).
>
> So, you're not sure how O(N) string indexing will work? But MicroPython
> offers a great opportunity to try! And it's something new and exciting,
> which surely will be useful (== will save people memory), not just
> something old and boring ;-).
>
>
>>
>> ChrisA
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Paul mailto:***@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Python-Dev mailing list
> Python-***@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/dholth%40gmail.com