Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances and Isle of the Dead

[Michael Schaffer]

I have been going through a large pile of recordings of the Symphonic
Dances recently. I had known and liked the piece for a while, but not
listened to it for a long time. A concert I heard with the NYP and
Dutoit rekindled my interest in this incredibly original and inventive
piece. Unfortunately, dutoit's own recording with the PhilaO (Decca)
is a little disappointing. So is Ormandy's (Sony) which is a real
disappointment, especially given that he premiered the piece. But the
recording doesn't even suggest particular familiarity with the music
or its style. It is just very tired and univolved. A pity.

So far, my favorites are Janson's two accounts with the StPP (EMI),
closely followed, but leading his live recording with the RCO (RCO
live). His readings have everything. Rhythm, color, expressivity,
drive, great playing from both orchestras and also nice sound (very
close and direct on EMI, more distant but well balanced and capturing
the acoustics of the hall well on RCO live). Ashkenazy's recording
with the RCO is also very good and rather "exciting", but he cares
little for color and small details, and a lot of that is washed out in
the boomy recording in which the Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar. Other versions I liked were Maazel/BP (DG) which is
extremely well played and pays a lot of attention to balances and fine
detail, but unfortunately, part of the fun is spoilt by the very dry
and bright recording, and Zinman/BalSO (Telarc) which isn't quite on
the same level orchestrally as the others but very meticulously
prepared and transparently played.

I also started to listen to a number of versions of Isle of the Dead.
So far, the one I like best is Reiner/CSO (RCA), a very sombre and to-
the-point account in a recording which is rather good for its age
(1957, as I was told here) which works very well in this piece -
things can get mushy very easily as they do in Ashkenazy's recording
in which the orchestra textures aren't as well controlled and the
already mentioned boomy recording mashes everything together too much.
Dutoit's PhilaO recording (Decca) is more athmospheric, but here the
recording is too soft-focus and too distant, too. Decca apparently
wanted to re-create some kind of "classic Philadelphia sound", but
what they do doesn't work so well.

What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

[Sol L. Siegel]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).

Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played. Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found it the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's
actually a very good performance, definitely superior to the Ormandy.) My
current favorite is the JEG on DG, but -- other than a general overall
excitement -- I don't remember why it's my favorite. (Sorry.) It might be
that he does a really good job of "characterizing" each movement.

As for "Isle of the Dead"...

I've always liked the Horenstein, still available from Chesky (paired with
the PC2). Horenstein takes his time (without schlepping), and the mood is
morbidly dark, lightening a bit only toward the end. As you really "ought"
to own the Wild/Horenstein recordings, this disk is, as the Brits say,
self-recommending.

[Dawg]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found it the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's
actually a very good performance, definitely superior to the Ormandy.) My
current favorite is the JEG on DG, but -- other than a general overall
excitement -- I don't remember why it's my favorite. (Sorry.) It might be
that he does a really good job of "characterizing" each movement.
As for "Isle of the Dead"...
I've always liked the Horenstein, still available from Chesky (paired with
the PC2). Horenstein takes his time (without schlepping), and the mood is
morbidly dark, lightening a bit only toward the end. As you really "ought"
to own the Wild/Horenstein recordings, this disk is, as the Brits say,
self-recommending.

I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree

[Gerard]

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive airplane
hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw Orchestra
recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra,
and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive airplane
hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw Orchestra
recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra,
and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes extra
effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made you want
the de Waart disc in the first place?

And if those are your favorites, which ones have you heard and
classified as non-favorites?

I don't have many recordings of this work, but I suppose the one
recording I'm having trouble working up much enthusiasm for, at the
moment, is the Oue recording. Good sound, supposedly, but not
particularly interesting interpretively and I think the orchestra has
sounded more impressive on other discs with that conductor. It did not
live up to expectations. Neither did Maazel's recording, which is well
played and interesting but analytical and fussy to the point of losing
its way.

--Jeff

[Gerard]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes extra
effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made you want
the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been "on offer" in
the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably priced (and available from all
over the world at that time, when Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence -
I've mentioned this set a few times before).
So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing' compared to
his new recordings.

Post by j***@aol.com
And if those are your favorites, which ones have you heard and
classified as non-favorites?

Hard to say. Most of the time I have no "hard favorites", but plenty of "very
good" recordings.
In this case I see myself listening to a few recordings repeatedly, while
forgetting about other ones, like Zinman, Litton, Previn (and I have some more
on LP I never hear any more). Ormandy is 'ok', but no favorite.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes extra
effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made you want
the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been "on offer" in
the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably priced (and available from all
over the world at that time, when Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence -
I've mentioned this set a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

Post by Gerard
So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing' compared to
his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
And if those are your favorites, which ones have you heard and
classified as non-favorites?

Hard to say. Most of the time I have no "hard favorites", but plenty of "very
good" recordings.
In this case I see myself listening to a few recordings repeatedly, while
forgetting about other ones, like Zinman, Litton, Previn (and I have some more
on LP I never hear any more). Ormandy is 'ok', but no favorite.

That gives me a better perspective on your favorites. Zinman is one I
cannot forget easily. I haven't heard Previn or Litton.

--Jeff

[Proboscis]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes extra
effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made you want
the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been "on offer" in
the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably priced (and available from all
over the world at that time, when Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence -
I've mentioned this set a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

The symphonic dances are available seperately through HMV Japan. Believe me,
they're worth it.

[Steve de Mena]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes extra
effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made you want
the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been "on offer" in
the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably priced (and available from all
over the world at that time, when Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence -
I've mentioned this set a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

It is £26.90 ($51.77) total cost, with shipping to the U.S., from
Amazon UK.

http://tinyurl.com/6cs4so

Steve

[Gerard]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a
Russian darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a
massive airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's
recording neither. Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard
his Concertgebouw Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya),
Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart
(Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been
"on offer" in the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably
priced (and available from all over the world at that time, when
Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence - I've mentioned this set
a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

I don't understand why 48 Euros is too expensive for a box with *4* hybrid
SACD's.
This is almost the same price when the set was on offer here (44 Euros).

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard
So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

[Paul Goldstein]

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

He did; it was issued on Philips LP and, as another poster has stated, it's
available on CD in Japan.

[Paul Goldstein]

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

He did; it was issued on Philips LP and, as another poster has stated, it's
available on CD in Japan.

Correction: I misread the earlier post. It's the de Waart Exton remake that's
available from Japan. I couldn't find any sign of the Philips recording on the
usual Japanese websites. It looks like the LP has not been reissued. I haven't
heard it in at least 25 years, but I don't recall thinking it was competitive
with Kondrashin or Ormandy.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

He did; it was issued on Philips LP and, as another poster has stated, it's
available on CD in Japan.

Correction: I misread the earlier post. It's the de Waart Exton remake that's
available from Japan. I couldn't find any sign of the Philips recording on the
usual Japanese websites. It looks like the LP has not been reissued. I haven't
heard it in at least 25 years, but I don't recall thinking it was competitive
with Kondrashin or Ormandy.

Are you, like me, wondering why several posters have reservations
about the Ormandy recording?

--Jeff

[Paul Goldstein]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

He did; it was issued on Philips LP and, as another poster has stated, it's
available on CD in Japan.

Correction: I misread the earlier post. It's the de Waart Exton remake that's
available from Japan. I couldn't find any sign of the Philips recording on the
usual Japanese websites. It looks like the LP has not been reissued. I haven't
heard it in at least 25 years, but I don't recall thinking it was competitive
with Kondrashin or Ormandy.

Are you, like me, wondering why several posters have reservations
about the Ormandy recording?

Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings. I can understand downgrading the Ormandy
Symphonic Dances a bit because of its sound quality, but as an interpretation it
is outstanding, and it is hard to imagine any orchestra playing the notes much
better than the Philadelphians did on that occasion.

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

[Paul Goldstein]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

Without preconceptions about the quality of the recording.

[Bob Harper]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance
more objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've
sometimes been surprised to find that a performance I hear in that
manner and like very much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have
gone out of my way to hear or purchase.

Bob Harper

[Frank Berger]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance more
objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've sometimes
been surprised to find that a performance I hear in that manner and like
very much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have gone out of my way
to hear or purchase.
Bob Harper

Objective listening has occurred when someone else agrees with *your*
opinion of the music.

[Paul Goldstein]

In article <v4WdnW6P-***@supernews.com>, Frank Berger
says...

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance more
objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've sometimes
been surprised to find that a performance I hear in that manner and like
very much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have gone out of my way
to hear or purchase.
Bob Harper

Objective listening has occurred when someone else agrees with *your*
opinion of the music.

Too cynical a view, though certainly what you describe happens sometimes. Bob's
answer is right on the money.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Paul Goldstein
says...

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance more
objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've sometimes
been surprised to find that a performance I hear in that manner and like
very much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have gone out of my way
to hear or purchase.
Bob Harper

Objective listening has occurred when someone else agrees with *your*
opinion of the music.

Too cynical a view

Only if taken literally.

When you said, "Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.....," it sounded a lot to me like you
were saying that anyone who disagreed with you wan't listening objectively."
OK, you didn't say, "anyone," you said "many." If that's an important
distinction, I withdraw my "accusation."

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Frank Berger
When you said, "Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.....," it sounded a lot to me like you
were saying that anyone who disagreed with you wan't listening
objectively." OK, you didn't say, "anyone," you said "many." If that's an
important distinction, I withdraw my "accusation."

Frank, I too have seen "objective" used as a euphemism for "agrees with me,"
and that's why I asked Paul what he meant. I'm satisfied with Paul's
explanation.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Bob Harper
Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance more
objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've sometimes been
surprised to find that a performance I hear in that manner and like very
much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have gone out of my way to
hear or purchase.

And sometimes you say to yourself, "Aha! I'm not surprised!" Such as the
time I tuned into a performance of "Ma Vlast" that was so gripping that I
missed my offramp by several miles and had to double back. I've told this
before, of course, and it turned out to be Kubelik's late-in-life return to
conduct the Czech Philharmonic at the Prague Spring Festival.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Bob Harper
Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance more
objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've sometimes been
surprised to find that a performance I hear in that manner and like very
much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have gone out of my way to
hear or purchase.

And sometimes you say to yourself, "Aha! I'm not surprised!" Such as the
time I tuned into a performance of "Ma Vlast" that was so gripping that I
missed my offramp by several miles and had to double back. I've told this
before, of course, and it turned out to be Kubelik's late-in-life return to
conduct the Czech Philharmonic at the Prague Spring Festival.

An especially impressive story since, in SoCal, missing one's offramp
by several miles can mean a two-hour's delay in getting home.

--Jeff

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by j***@aol.com

following letters to be typed

Post by Bob Harper
Suppose you tune in to the performance on the radio, after it has begun.
You don't know who is conducting. Is your reaction to the performance
more objective than when you know the performers? I say yes; I've
sometimes been surprised to find that a performance I hear in that
manner and like very much turns out to be from someone I wouldn't have
gone out of my way to hear or purchase.

And sometimes you say to yourself, "Aha! I'm not surprised!" Such as the
time I tuned into a performance of "Ma Vlast" that was so gripping that I
missed my offramp by several miles and had to double back. I've told this
before, of course, and it turned out to be Kubelik's late-in-life return
to conduct the Czech Philharmonic at the Prague Spring Festival.

An especially impressive story since, in SoCal, missing one's offramp
by several miles can mean a two-hour's delay in getting home.

But I've mentioned this occurrence several times before. I was on my way
from West L.A. to visit the late John Wilson at his home in Long Beach, and I
became so entranced by that performance that I simply missed my turnoff and
didn't think to look for several minutes. I did get to hear the end of
"Blanik" and the performer attributions before I finally got to his place.
When I explained why I was so abysmally late, he completely understood.

Naturally, when the CD was issued (what I heard was an NPR tape, I think), I
grabbed it up.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem
unable to listen objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

What occurred in the summer of 1970 when the reviewers of WQXR's "On First
Hearing" trashed an Ormandy performance without knowing who was conducting.
Interestingly, I correctly guessed it was Ormandy, as did (he claimed)
Martin Bookspan.

I'm not big fan of HvK, but he turned out some terrific performances.

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Curtis Croulet

Yes and no, Jeff.  Many sophisticated listeners seem
unable to listen objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

What occurred in the summer of 1970 when the reviewers of WQXR's "On First
Hearing" trashed an Ormandy performance without knowing who was conducting.
Interestingly, I correctly guessed it was Ormandy, as did (he claimed)
Martin Bookspan.
I'm not big fan of HvK, but he turned out some terrific performances.

Did you ever take part in any of the blind listening games I used to
host here at one time?

[j***@aol.com]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem
unable to listen objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

What occurred in the summer of 1970 when the reviewers of WQXR's "On First
Hearing" trashed an Ormandy performance without knowing who was conducting.
Interestingly, I correctly guessed it was Ormandy, as did (he claimed)
Martin Bookspan.

I used to guess correctly on that show quite frequently. But I (and a
lot of listeners and I suspect the critics too) had some inkling about
what records were lurking in the new release bins, and hence what
might be on George Jelinek's play list. So, for instance, if he played
a movement from anew Tchaikovsky symphony, and it sounded like an
American orchestra, you already had a good idea which one it was.

--Jeff

[Norman M. Schwartz]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem
unable to listen objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

What occurred in the summer of 1970 when the reviewers of WQXR's "On
First Hearing" trashed an Ormandy performance without knowing who
was conducting. Interestingly, I correctly guessed it was Ormandy,
as did (he claimed) Martin Bookspan.

I used to guess correctly on that show quite frequently. But I (and a
lot of listeners and I suspect the critics too) had some inkling about
what records were lurking in the new release bins, and hence what
might be on George Jelinek's play list. So, for instance, if he played
a movement from anew Tchaikovsky symphony, and it sounded like an
American orchestra, you already had a good idea which one it was.

Despite all of that, I recall the panel (did they consider themselves
"critics"?) often displayed their ignorance.

Post by j***@aol.com
--Jeff

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Despite all of that, I recall the panel (did they consider themselves
"critics"?) often displayed their ignorance.

Are you claiming a distinction between "reviewer" and "critic?" Jellinek
and Bookspan were once regular reviewers/critics, whatever you wish to call
them, for HiFi/Stereo Review.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Despite all of that, I recall the panel (did they consider themselves
"critics"?) often displayed their ignorance.

Are you claiming a distinction between "reviewer" and "critic?" Jellinek
and Bookspan were once regular reviewers/critics, whatever you wish to call
them, for HiFi/Stereo Review.

How old George Jellinek? (Don't reply "Old George Jellinek fine," although
if that were a true statement, I would be delighted.)

[Curtis Croulet]

He's about 88. A quick check of Google netted this article, which you may
find interesting:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/11/29/041129fa_fact3

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Curtis Croulet
He's about 88. A quick check of Google netted this article, which you may
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/11/29/041129fa_fact3

Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a perfect
illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New Yorker publishes.

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a perfect
illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New Yorker publishes.

Well, I don't agree with that. Anyway, they change every time you access
the article.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a perfect
illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New Yorker publishes.

Well, I don't agree with that. Anyway, they change every time you access
the article.

I'm with Matthew. I re-loaded the page 10 times. 0 for 10, IMO.

[Bob Harper]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Curtis Croulet
He's about 88. A quick check of Google netted this article, which you may
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/11/29/041129fa_fact3

Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a perfect
illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New Yorker publishes.

Well, I didn't fine them *that* unfunny, but yes, a wonderful article.

Bob Harper

[Norman M. Schwartz]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Curtis Croulet
He's about 88. A quick check of Google netted this article, which
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/11/29/041129fa_fact3

Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a
perfect illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New
Yorker publishes.

Well, I didn't fine them *that* unfunny, but yes, a wonderful article.

Wonderful article about the wonderful achievements of Mr. Jellinek.

Post by Bob Harper
Bob Harper

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Curtis Croulet
He's about 88. A quick check of Google netted this article, which you may
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/11/29/041129fa_fact3

Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a perfect
illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New Yorker publishes.

One would think that classical listeners would have the sophistication to
appreciate New Yorker's cartoons. (I'll admit that about 1% of them are
incomprehensible to me.)

[Frank Berger]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Curtis Croulet
He's about 88. A quick check of Google netted this article, which you

may

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Curtis Croulet
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/11/29/041129fa_fact3

Thanks for the link to a very interesting article! And also a perfect
illustration of the utterly humor-free cartoons the New Yorker publishes.

One would think that classical listeners would have the sophistication to
appreciate New Yorker's cartoons. (I'll admit that about 1% of them are
incomprehensible to me.)

They're not incomprehensible. They're just not funny. Do not assume that
if one finds a cartoon unfunny that one does not "get" it.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by William Sommerwerck
One would think that classical listeners would have the sophistication to
appreciate New Yorker's cartoons. (I'll admit that about 1% of them are
incomprehensible to me.)

They're not incomprehensible. They're just not funny. Do not assume that
if one finds a cartoon unfunny that one does not "get" it.

I didn't say that people who didn't laugh didn't get the cartoon. I said
that there was a small percentage I didn't understand.

I find most New Yorker cartoons funny. I apologize for being a pretentious
intellectual.

[Bob Lombard]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
One would think that classical listeners would have the sophistication to
appreciate New Yorker's cartoons. (I'll admit that about 1% of them are
incomprehensible to me.)

They're not incomprehensible. They're just not funny. Do not assume that
if one finds a cartoon unfunny that one does not "get" it.

I didn't say that people who didn't laugh didn't get the cartoon. I said
that there was a small percentage I didn't understand.
I find most New Yorker cartoons funny. I apologize for being a pretentious
intellectual.

Back in the day, some of Virgil Partch's cartoons stumped me until I
contemplated them awhile. That may be because I was/am somewhat
humor-challenged.

bl

[Frank Berger]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
One would think that classical listeners would have the sophistication to
appreciate New Yorker's cartoons. (I'll admit that about 1% of them are
incomprehensible to me.)

They're not incomprehensible. They're just not funny. Do not assume that
if one finds a cartoon unfunny that one does not "get" it.

I didn't say that people who didn't laugh didn't get the cartoon. I said
that there was a small percentage I didn't understand.
I find most New Yorker cartoons funny. I apologize for being a pretentious
intellectual.

I am also a pretentious intellectual and I find few New Yorker cartoons to
be funny. That was my point. You missed it.

[Allen]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Despite all of that, I recall the panel (did they consider themselves
"critics"?) often displayed their ignorance.

Are you claiming a distinction between "reviewer" and "critic?" Jellinek
and Bookspan were once regular reviewers/critics, whatever you wish to call
them, for HiFi/Stereo Review.

How old George Jellinek? (Don't reply "Old George Jellinek fine," although
if that were a true statement, I would be delighted.)

Thank you Mr. Leach.
Allen

[Dawg]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Paul Goldstein
Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.

What is "objective" listening?

Having no formed conceptions because of who the performers are, gives a
degree of objectivity. In short, blind listening.

Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree

[Bob Harper]

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

He did; it was issued on Philips LP and, as another poster has stated, it's
available on CD in Japan.

Correction: I misread the earlier post. It's the de Waart Exton remake that's
available from Japan. I couldn't find any sign of the Philips recording on the
usual Japanese websites. It looks like the LP has not been reissued. I haven't
heard it in at least 25 years, but I don't recall thinking it was competitive
with Kondrashin or Ormandy.

Are you, like me, wondering why several posters have reservations
about the Ormandy recording?

Yes and no, Jeff. Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings. I can understand downgrading the Ormandy
Symphonic Dances a bit because of its sound quality, but as an interpretation it
is outstanding, and it is hard to imagine any orchestra playing the notes much
better than the Philadelphians did on that occasion.

Agreed.

Bob Harper

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Paul Goldstein

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com
Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

So I gave it a try, and it was a big surprise in all respects.
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

He did; it was issued on Philips LP and, as another poster has stated, it's
available on CD in Japan.

Correction:  I misread the earlier post.  It's the de Waart Exton remake that's
available from Japan.  I couldn't find any sign of the Philips recording on the
usual Japanese websites.  It looks like the LP has not been reissued.  I haven't
heard it in at least 25 years, but I don't recall thinking it was competitive
with Kondrashin or Ormandy.

Are you, like me, wondering why several posters have reservations
about the Ormandy recording?

Yes and no, Jeff.  Many sophisticated listeners seem unable to listen
objectively to Ormandy's recordings.  I can understand downgrading the Ormandy
Symphonic Dances a bit because of its sound quality, but as an interpretation it
is outstanding, and it is hard to imagine any orchestra playing the notes much
better than the Philadelphians did on that occasion.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You don't even have to imagine that. There are many versions which are
much better played and musically more interesting. Not that the
playing is bad. Not at all. They pretty much play all the notes, but
they don't even do that very brilliantly with any particular verve or
intensity of expression of color. They just play through the piece
competently, although I have to say that many finer points of the
score, like a lot of articulation nuances which Rachmaninoff marked
very carefully, are not really happening.

Not all criticism is based on some horribly, horribly unfair bias
against the artists. In this case, I was if anything positively biased
when I put the recording in the CD player since I think Ormandy's
recording of the 2nd is very good in every respect, and after all, he
had premiered the SD which are dedicated to him and the orchestra. So
I expected something very special from someone who was particularly
familiar with the score, had rehearsed it together with the composer
and, presumably, conducted it often. Maybe it's a case of too high
expectations disappointed? Disappointed, yes, but I don't think my
expectations were too high. I think it's fair to expect something very
good from such a team. But, positive or negative bias, or no bas at
all, this recording is simply disappointingly mediocre orchestrally
and musically. I don't even think that the recording is that bad,
certainly not bad enough to influence the listening to the music
negatively. Certainly not any worse than the 2nd symphony recorded a
few years earlier which I, like I already said, think is very good.

I am not really aware of a "general bias" in this group against
Ormandy, but then I don't really follow it that closely either.

BTW, I am definitely negatively biased against Reiner based on the
fact that most of the recordings of his I have heard I didn't like
very much, some of them I find outright horrible - but yet I think the
recording of Isle of the Dead is very good. So I guess I am being
pretty "objective" here.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a
Russian darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a
massive airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's
recording neither. Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard
his Concertgebouw Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya),
Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart
(Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been
"on offer" in the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably
priced (and available from all over the world at that time, when
Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence - I've mentioned this set
a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

I don't understand why 48 Euros is too expensive for a box with *4* hybrid
SACD's.
This is almost the same price when the set was on offer here (44 Euros).

I'm just not interested in paying that much, that's all. Hence it is
too expensive. My point of view, you understand.

Other than two or three truly extraordinary items--like that BSO box
mentioned in the other thread--I basically have never paid that much
per disc for a box set. And practically never for single CDs either. I
guess I paid that much per disc to buy the Persichetti quartets last
month (only one disc!), but that's repertoire I've waited eagerly for
two decades to purchase. It was still probably a small extravagance.

I shudder to imagine how much money one would have to sink into CDs at
that price for basic repertoire, over and over, to the point of having
a dozen or more fine recordings of the same work while searching for
that nth marginal improvement of excellence and yet only have time to
hear it, oh, maybe three or four times anyway, and maybe only one half
of the box even that often.

Perhaps if I bought only one version of every work, then perhaps it
would make sense to pay that much.

--Jeff

[Paige Turner]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a
Russian darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a
massive airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's
recording neither. Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard
his Concertgebouw Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya),
Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart
(Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been
"on offer" in the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably
priced (and available from all over the world at that time, when
Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence - I've mentioned this set
a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

I don't understand why 48 Euros is too expensive for a box with *4* hybrid
SACD's.
This is almost the same price when the set was on offer here (44 Euros).

I'm just not interested in paying that much, that's all. Hence it is
too expensive. My point of view, you understand.
Other than two or three truly extraordinary items--like that BSO box
mentioned in the other thread--I basically have never paid that much
per disc for a box set. And practically never for single CDs either. I
guess I paid that much per disc to buy the Persichetti quartets last
month (only one disc!), but that's repertoire I've waited eagerly for
two decades to purchase. It was still probably a small extravagance.
I shudder to imagine how much money one would have to sink into CDs at
that price for basic repertoire, over and over, to the point of having
a dozen or more fine recordings of the same work while searching for
that nth marginal improvement of excellence and yet only have time to
hear it, oh, maybe three or four times anyway, and maybe only one half
of the box even that often.

Enter an old but often neglected friend: Radio!! I am not going to buy
any more Beethoven (OK, that is a commitment likely to be broken once
or twice), but certainly, if it's on the radio, I will gladly listen
to more and more and more and more versions. Hell, there is even an
Internet-only Radio Beethoven, that is all they play. And broadcasts
of concerts, and so on. Maybe I will spring for a historical reissue
of something that I could never find before, as in the case of
Sofronitsky or Arrau in concert. But how many artists of that quality
are there? WIth the radio, I don't have to worry. In fact, I don't
even feel obliged to listen.

Kind regards

pt

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Paige Turner

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a
Russian darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a
massive airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's
recording neither. Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard
his Concertgebouw Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya),
Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart
(Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been
"on offer" in the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably
priced (and available from all over the world at that time, when
Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence - I've mentioned this set
a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

I don't understand why 48 Euros is too expensive for a box with *4* hybrid
SACD's.
This is almost the same price when the set was on offer here (44 Euros).

I'm just not interested in paying that much, that's all. Hence it is
too expensive. My point of view, you understand.
Other than two or three truly extraordinary items--like that BSO box
mentioned in the other thread--I basically have never paid that much
per disc for a box set. And practically never for single CDs either. I
guess I paid that much per disc to buy the Persichetti quartets last
month (only one disc!), but that's repertoire I've waited eagerly for
two decades to purchase. It was still probably a small extravagance.
I shudder to imagine how much money one would have to sink into CDs at
that price for basic repertoire, over and over, to the point of having
a dozen or more fine recordings of the same work while searching for
that nth marginal improvement of excellence and yet only have time to
hear it, oh, maybe three or four times anyway, and maybe only one half
of the box even that often.

Enter an old but often neglected friend: Radio!! I am not going to buy
any more Beethoven (OK, that is a commitment likely to be broken once
or twice), but certainly, if it's on the radio, I will gladly listen
to more and more and more and more versions. Hell, there is even an
Internet-only Radio Beethoven, that is all they play. And broadcasts
of concerts, and so on. Maybe I will spring for a historical reissue
of something that I could never find before, as in the case of
Sofronitsky or Arrau in concert. But how many artists of that quality
are there? WIth the radio, I don't have to worry. In fact, I don't
even feel obliged to listen.
Kind regards
pt

Yes to most of that, except neglected friend radio (on the internet)
is of relatively poor sound, so a new Cd now and then is still
satisfying. Also, radio continues to show that artists of "that"
quality are as numerous as ever. We are spoiled with riches, doubly so
if we have money to throw at all the new CDs that are coming out.

--Jeff

[j***@aol.com]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Paige Turner

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a
Russian darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a
massive airplane hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's
recording neither. Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard
his Concertgebouw Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya),
Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart
(Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes
extra effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made
you want the de Waart disc in the first place?

The Exton box set with all Rachmaninov's symphonic works has been
"on offer" in the Netherlands, 4 hybrid SACD's, very reasonably
priced (and available from all over the world at that time, when
Kuijpers Klassiek was still in existence - I've mentioned this set
a few times before).

Even without Kuijpers we can still get it from Amazon.de, and I
suspect other stores (though not Amazon.com, unfortunately). The price
listed there (48 Euros) is way beyond me--outrageous for four CDs of
music so well recorded elsewhere, and especially too expensive if you
have to factor in shipping to the U.S. But then, I am not inclined to
pay much for CDs when so many are so cheap.

I don't understand why 48 Euros is too expensive for a box with *4* hybrid
SACD's.
This is almost the same price when the set was on offer here (44 Euros).

I'm just not interested in paying that much, that's all. Hence it is
too expensive. My point of view, you understand.
Other than two or three truly extraordinary items--like that BSO box
mentioned in the other thread--I basically have never paid that much
per disc for a box set. And practically never for single CDs either. I
guess I paid that much per disc to buy the Persichetti quartets last
month (only one disc!), but that's repertoire I've waited eagerly for
two decades to purchase. It was still probably a small extravagance.
I shudder to imagine how much money one would have to sink into CDs at
that price for basic repertoire, over and over, to the point of having
a dozen or more fine recordings of the same work while searching for
that nth marginal improvement of excellence and yet only have time to
hear it, oh, maybe three or four times anyway, and maybe only one half
of the box even that often.

Enter an old but often neglected friend: Radio!! I am not going to buy
any more Beethoven (OK, that is a commitment likely to be broken once
or twice), but certainly, if it's on the radio, I will gladly listen
to more and more and more and more versions. Hell, there is even an
Internet-only Radio Beethoven, that is all they play. And broadcasts
of concerts, and so on. Maybe I will spring for a historical reissue
of something that I could never find before, as in the case of
Sofronitsky or Arrau in concert. But how many artists of that quality
are there? WIth the radio, I don't have to worry. In fact, I don't
even feel obliged to listen.
Kind regards
pt

Yes to most of that, except neglected friend radio (on the internet)
is of relatively poor sound, so a new Cd now and then is still
satisfying. Also, radio continues to show that artists of "that"
quality are as numerous as ever. We are spoiled with riches, doubly so
if we have money to throw at all the new CDs that are coming out.

...and I should add that, given Gerard's recommendation, de Waart's
track record in this composer, and the fine orchestra he has at his
disposal in the Exton set, I have little doubt that it is very good at
a minimum, and maybe a great choice as a possible favorite. I'm just
waiting to find it as an amazing bargain, willing to risk that I'll
never hear it.

--Jeff

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Gerard

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard
De Waart's previous Rachmaninov recordings on Philips are 'nothing'
compared to his new recordings.

That's a strong statement, since his Philips Rachmaninoff gets high
praise in the reviews I've seen. I think they are probably quite
underrated. I wonder what he does differently this time around (did he
even recorded the Symphonic Dances in the first cycle?).

AFAIK he did not record the Symphonic Dances in his firstcycle.

Actually he did. It might have been way before he recorded the
symphonies.

Loading Image...

Steve

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive airplane
hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw Orchestra
recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra,
and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

Exton is not a well marketed label outside of Japan, so it takes extra
effort to find them and extra money to buy them. What made you want
the de Waart disc in the first place?
And if those are your favorites, which ones have you heard and
classified as non-favorites?
I don't have many recordings of this work, but I suppose the one
recording I'm having trouble working up much enthusiasm for, at the
moment, is the Oue recording. Good sound, supposedly, but not
particularly interesting interpretively and I think the orchestra has
sounded more impressive on other discs with that conductor. It did not
live up to expectations. Neither did Maazel's recording, which is well
played and interesting but analytical and fussy to the point of losing
its way.
--Jeff

I think that's mostly the sound which makes it so "overanalytical" in
a negative way. It really is very dry and brittle and breaks up the
sound of the orchestra so that on the one hand, yes, one can hear a
lot of inner detail, but everything sounds so bright and "isolated". I
don't find it musically "fussy". It is very detailed and nuanced, but
that is also a function of how the orchestra generally played,
especially when conducted by someone as clear in his concept as
Maazel, in contrast to Karajan who sometimes buried that musical
detailedness under a blanket of "big" sound. The recording quality
here is a pity, not just a little problem, but a real pity because the
combination of the BP's very rich and full sound and Maazel's very
clear outlining sounded phenomenally good live. I remember fabulous
Sibelius performances (1 and 2), a great Prokofieff 5, among other
really good concerts with Maazel back in those days. And also a
Bruckner 8 which was very good and actually recorded by EMI - in much
better sound than these horrible DG recordings of the Rachmaninoff
works.

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Gerard

Post by Dawg
I find Ashkenazy very good in both these works, and with a Russian
darkness and feel, that seems just right.

Agreed. I've never heard the "Concertgebouw sounds like a massive airplane
hangar" (like the OP) - in Ashkenazy's recording neither.

What the OP ment by this was that the acoustics are very reverberant
and the orchestra is recorded a little distant, so while the sound is
allowed to bloom - and also boom! -, it is also really mushy. There is
some selective highlighting going on, especially of the brass, which,
in the boomy acoustics, makes it sound very "exciting" - and it really
is. The wild playing and diabolic drive underline that impression.
However, there is also a lot of good stuff lost in that process. For
instance, at the end, when the massive climaxes with the dies irae
motif and the tamtams come, it really sounds as if all hell broke
loose. But then after the two bars of offbeat chords in the brass over
snare drum rolls - which here are actually broken up by those chords
while in most version, the roll is uninterrupted for those bars - when
the strings take off with the main theme accompanied by the racing
snare drum - all that is tremendously exciting. But you don't really
hear anything else, like the syncopated chords accompanying that
passage, because the sound is so boomy, and pretty much everything
from here on is ff or fff no matter what the score says. This is why I
still prefer Janson/StPP by a fair margin because that version is very
"exciting", too, but you also get much more detail and color.

Post by Gerard
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw Orchestra
recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the Concertgebouw Orchestra,
and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like nobody knows this recording by Edo de
Waart.

There is a recording of Kondrashin with the Concertgebouworkest? Tell
me more.

[Gerard]

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Gerard
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

There is a recording of Kondrashin with the Concertgebouworkest? Tell
me more.

This has been "discussed" very recently in this ng.

Emergo Classics EC 3962-2.
Tchaikovsky Suite #3
Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances.

See also:
http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/kondrachine/discographie.php?p=r#r
and
http://www.geocities.jp/exist2ok/e-kondrashin.html

The latest copy of this I've bought costed 3 Euros.
But it was also the latest copy of it in that store.
It's here in front of me since the, because it is intended to be sent to a
friend, who does not want to believe that this is not a used CD. So I am making
it 'used' now.

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Gerard

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Gerard
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

There is a recording of Kondrashin with the Concertgebouworkest? Tell
me more.

This has been "discussed" very recently in this ng.
Emergo Classics EC 3962-2.
Tchaikovsky Suite #3
Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances.
 http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/kondrachine/discographie.php?p=r#r
and
 http://www.geocities.jp/exist2ok/e-kondrashin.html
The latest copy of this I've bought costed 3 Euros.
But it was also the latest copy of it in that store.
It's here in front of me since the, because it is intended to be sent to a
friend, who does not want to believe that this is not a used CD. So I am making
it 'used' now.

Where did you find it?

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Gerard

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Gerard
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

There is a recording of Kondrashin with the Concertgebouworkest? Tell
me more.

This has been "discussed" very recently in this ng.
Emergo Classics EC 3962-2.
Tchaikovsky Suite #3
Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances.
http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/kondrachine/discographie.php?p=r#r
and
http://www.geocities.jp/exist2ok/e-kondrashin.html
The latest copy of this I've bought costed 3 Euros.
But it was also the latest copy of it in that store.
It's here in front of me since the, because it is intended to be sent to a
friend, who does not want to believe that this is not a used CD. So I am making
it 'used' now.

Where did you find it?

Amazon UK has some copies. ASIN: B000025XEQ

Steve

[Gerard]

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Gerard

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Gerard
Favorites are Jansons (EMI - I've not heard his Concertgebouw
Orchestra recording), Kondrashin (Melodiya), Kondrashin with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Edo de Waart (Exton). It seems like
nobody knows this recording by Edo de Waart.

There is a recording of Kondrashin with the Concertgebouworkest?
Tell me more.

This has been "discussed" very recently in this ng.
Emergo Classics EC 3962-2.
Tchaikovsky Suite #3
Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances.
http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/kondrachine/discographie.php?p=r#r
and
http://www.geocities.jp/exist2ok/e-kondrashin.html
The latest copy of this I've bought costed 3 Euros.
But it was also the latest copy of it in that store.
It's here in front of me since the, because it is intended to be
sent to a friend, who does not want to believe that this is not a
used CD. So I am making it 'used' now.

Where did you find it?

The Hague, Spui Records.
http://www.spuirecords.nl/

When the price dropped down, I wanted to buy all the copies that were still in
stock. Sometimes they have many (staples of Dvorak's Rusalka with Neumann e.g.).
This time there was 1 copy only left.

[Frank Berger]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found it the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's

Please explain how the sound of an audiophile recording can be dryish.
Thank you.

[Mark Melson]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:51:56 -0500, "Frank Berger"

Post by Frank Berger

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found it the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's

Please explain how the sound of an audiophile recording can be dryish.
Thank you.

I know what he means: it was recorded in McFarlin Auditorium at
Southern Methodist University, a room (then as now) with almost no
reverberation at all, and the recording captures that dryness
faithfully. But the sound has bite and presence, and the balances are
well-judged.

Mark Melson

[j***@yale.edu]

David Zinman's recording of the Symphonic Dances with the Baltimore
Symphony on Teldec is subtle, powerful, and beautiful--and in superb
sound.

Jon Butler

[Pierre Paquin]

Modified Neumann U 47 or some other model were used for this Dallas
recording. I think it was ? Church. Frank maybe?
who did these mods with excellent results. I don't know who was on the
rest of the recording team for this Rach Dances recording.
I friend of mine has an analog tape copy of the master tape of this
recording. He might sitll have it.
Pierre
--
Continuous, non-stop internet broadcast of 5+ hours of HAYDN SYMPHONIES
from Haydn House
Please click-> http://www.live365.com/stations/ppaquin

Post by Mark Melson
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:51:56 -0500, "Frank Berger"

Post by Frank Berger

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found it the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's

Please explain how the sound of an audiophile recording can be dryish.
Thank you.

I know what he means: it was recorded in McFarlin Auditorium at
Southern Methodist University, a room (then as now) with almost no
reverberation at all, and the recording captures that dryness
faithfully. But the sound has bite and presence, and the balances are
well-judged.
Mark Melson

[Kalman Rubinson]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:42:10 -0400, "Pierre Paquin"

Post by Pierre Paquin
Modified Neumann U 47 or some other model were used for this Dallas
recording. I think it was ? Church. Frank maybe?
who did these mods with excellent results. I don't know who was on the
rest of the recording team for this Rach Dances recording.

?? Mowrey and Hancock

Kal

[Pierre Paquin]

Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:42:10 -0400, "Pierre Paquin"

Post by Pierre Paquin
Modified Neumann U 47 or some other model were used for this Dallas
recording. I think it was ? Church. Frank maybe?
who did these mods with excellent results. I don't know who was on the
rest of the recording team for this Rach Dances recording.

?? Mowrey and Hancock
Kal

Yes, that is the team.
Thanks
Pierre

[Kevin P. Mostyn]

Pierre, IIRC, the microphones were ribbons, not condensers. RCA 44BX, as
modified by the engineer from Cambridge Recordings, I think. He used to sell
the mics to the industry. I forget his name at the moment.

I have the CD issue but not to hand. I used to have the Lp. Demonstration
quality, despite the dry acoustic. Also recorded by the same team was a
Copland disc. Ditto re demonstration quality.

The above is from aging memory, but is fairly accurate, methinks.

Not to sound too parochial, but the Koussevitzky Isle of the Dead (both
versions, live and RCA) is an extraordinary statement. Not quite what
Rachmaninov wrote, but perhaps better. Certainly a very emotional reading of
the work. Reiner & Rachmaninov versions rather too cool for these ears.

--Kevin Mostyn

Post by Pierre Paquin
Modified Neumann U 47 or some other model were used for this Dallas
recording. I think it was ? Church. Frank maybe?
who did these mods with excellent results. I don't know who was on the
rest of the recording team for this Rach Dances recording.
I friend of mine has an analog tape copy of the master tape of this
recording. He might sitll have it.
Pierre
--
Continuous, non-stop internet broadcast of 5+ hours of HAYDN SYMPHONIES
from Haydn House
Please click-> http://www.live365.com/stations/ppaquin

Post by Mark Melson
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:51:56 -0500, "Frank Berger"

Post by Frank Berger

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found
it
the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's

Please explain how the sound of an audiophile recording can be dryish.
Thank you.

I know what he means: it was recorded in McFarlin Auditorium at
Southern Methodist University, a room (then as now) with almost no
reverberation at all, and the recording captures that dryness
faithfully. But the sound has bite and presence, and the balances are
well-judged.
Mark Melson

[Alan Cooper]

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Not to sound too parochial, but the Koussevitzky Isle of the
Dead (both versions, live and RCA) is an extraordinary
statement. Not quite what Rachmaninov wrote, but perhaps better.
Certainly a very emotional reading of the work. Reiner &
Rachmaninov versions rather too cool for these ears.

Emphatically seconded (I'm referring to the live account in the EMI Great Conductors
series). Incomparable intensity, building to an incredible climax yet never seeming
overwrought.

My favorites in the Symphonic Dances already have been named (Jansons, Kondrashin,
Johanos, and while I find Ashkenazy's conducting perfunctory his orchestra is
transcendent). I also recommend the wild and wooly Golovanov recordings kindly
assembled, transferred, and posted by Neal (vhorowitz) here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/113374403/Golovanov_Rachmaninoff.rar

AC

[Kevin P. Mostyn]

Alan,

The EMI set has the commercial RCA recording. If you glance at the
documentation for the EMI CD, you might see my name.

The live performance, from 31 March 1945, is even more febrile. It has been
published only on pirate issues:

Lp: EMA (Discocorp) SID-711 (note that the prefix SID is DIS spelled
backwards; a private joke by Fred Maroth.)
CD: LYS LYS-382; AS-DISC 569 (AS-Disc copied from the EMA source; LYS copied
from the AS-DISC source.)
(Also note that there is no honor among thieves.)

The Toteninsel on the EMA Lp was sourced from the Boston Symphony
Transcription Trust (BSTT) broadcast ASK-5, in the series "The Art of Serge
Koussevitzky." The BSTT was sourced from ABC transcription discs at the
Library of Congress.
--
Kevin Mostyn
---------------------
my real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Not to sound too parochial, but the Koussevitzky Isle of the
Dead (both versions, live and RCA) is an extraordinary
statement. Not quite what Rachmaninov wrote, but perhaps better.
Certainly a very emotional reading of the work. Reiner &
Rachmaninov versions rather too cool for these ears.

Emphatically seconded (I'm referring to the live account in the EMI Great Conductors
series). Incomparable intensity, building to an incredible climax yet never seeming
overwrought.
My favorites in the Symphonic Dances already have been named (Jansons, Kondrashin,
Johanos, and while I find Ashkenazy's conducting perfunctory his orchestra is
transcendent). I also recommend the wild and wooly Golovanov recordings kindly
http://rapidshare.com/files/113374403/Golovanov_Rachmaninoff.rar
AC

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Alan,
The EMI set has the commercial RCA recording. If you glance at the
documentation for the EMI CD, you might see my name.
The live performance, from 31 March 1945, is even more febrile. It has
Lp: EMA (Discocorp) SID-711 (note that the prefix SID is DIS spelled
backwards; a private joke by Fred Maroth.)

I believe there was an earlier BWS issue, with an all-blue jacket with a blue
sticker listing the contents. It also included Scriabin's "Poem of
Ecstasy," if member serves. I had this, and seem to have parted with it many
years ago, to my regret.

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
CD: LYS LYS-382; AS-DISC 569 (AS-Disc copied from the EMA source; LYS
copied from the AS-DISC source.)
(Also note that there is no honor among thieves.)
The Toteninsel on the EMA Lp was sourced from the Boston Symphony
Transcription Trust (BSTT) broadcast ASK-5, in the series "The Art of
Serge Koussevitzky." The BSTT was sourced from ABC transcription discs
at the Library of Congress.

[Kevin P. Mostyn]

Matthew,

I don't recall seeing it on BWS. Nor is it listed as such in Canfield. Fred
Maroth also issued it on IGI 711 ("I Grandi Interpreti") probably described
as "from rare transcription discs recently discovered in Italy, etc. etc."
Perhaps this is the one you had.

There were several incarnations of his labels on Lp.

WSA (Western Sound Archive)
BWS (Bruno Walter Society)
DIS (Discocorp)
SID (DIS spelled backward)
IGI (I Grandi Interpreti)
EMA (Educational Media Associates)
MORG (as in Morgan the Pirate)
PENZANCE (as in Pirates of)
ATRA (Arturo Toscanini Recordings Association, or something like that)
AUDAX (I forget the reference)
CURTAIN CALL (ditto)
LSSA (Leopold Stokowski Society of America)
R (I think this was a typo for RR)
RR (Recital Records)

..and possibly more. A moving target is hard to hit.
--
Kevin Mostyn
---------------------
my real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Alan,

<snip>

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
The live performance, from 31 March 1945, is even more febrile. It has
Lp: EMA (Discocorp) SID-711 (note that the prefix SID is DIS spelled
backwards; a private joke by Fred Maroth.)

I believe there was an earlier BWS issue, with an all-blue jacket with a blue
sticker listing the contents. It also included Scriabin's "Poem of
Ecstasy," if member serves. I had this, and seem to have parted with it many
years ago, to my regret.

<snip>

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Matthew B. Tepper

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Matthew,
I don't recall seeing it on BWS. Nor is it listed as such in Canfield.
Fred Maroth also issued it on IGI 711 ("I Grandi Interpreti") probably
described as "from rare transcription discs recently discovered in
Italy, etc. etc." Perhaps this is the one you had.

It probably was.

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
There were several incarnations of his labels on Lp.
WSA (Western Sound Archive)
BWS (Bruno Walter Society)
DIS (Discocorp)
SID (DIS spelled backward)
IGI (I Grandi Interpreti)
EMA (Educational Media Associates)
MORG (as in Morgan the Pirate)
PENZANCE (as in Pirates of)
ATRA (Arturo Toscanini Recordings Association, or something like that)
AUDAX (I forget the reference)
CURTAIN CALL (ditto)
LSSA (Leopold Stokowski Society of America)
R (I think this was a typo for RR)
RR (Recital Records)
..and possibly more. A moving target is hard to hit.

I didn't know that Penzance and Morgan (I do have a Toscanini rehearsal on
that latter label) were his, but now that you mention it, I shouldn't be the
least bit surprised. The Penzance issue I coveted was a 3-LP set of live
performances by Stokowski of the Mahler 2nd (Philadelphia Orchestra) and 8th
(New York Philharmonic), but of course I now have those performances on CD.

[Dan Fowler]

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Not to sound too parochial, but the Koussevitzky Isle of the Dead (both
versions, live and RCA) is an extraordinary statement. Not quite what
Rachmaninov wrote, but perhaps better. Certainly a very emotional reading of
the work. Reiner & Rachmaninov versions rather too cool for these ears.
--Kevin Mostyn

Koussevitzky's Isle is pretty atmospheric all right, though I do like
that Reiner version, which was the my introduction to the work.

One night I was out walking and stopped transfixed to listen to
Mitropoulos's rendition (found in the "History" or TIM box coupled with
the Rachmaninov 2nd symphony and also coupled with a very good Mahler
1st symphony. Mitropoulos nailed the atmosphere and pacing of the piece,
and the hollow-sounding (but clear) recording enhanced the effect. It
remains my favorite, though I do like the Reiner, Svetlanov, and
Horenstein versions very much.

Dan

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
I have the CD issue but not to hand. I used to have the Lp. Demonstration
quality, despite the dry acoustic. Also recorded by the same team was a
Copland disc. Ditto re demonstration quality.

I have the Copland LP. I was alerted to the excellent sound when I heard it
in a high-end salon ("high-end" ca. 1968 or so). For years it was my
standard home demo disc. The last time I played it, I was appalled at how
off-center the LP was, which I never noticed 40 years ago.

[Pierre Paquin]

Kevin,
Thanks for the update on this, mon ami.
You remember Victor Campos? he has(d) teh master tape copy and
aired it on WGBH, plugging his Studer TRs directly into the stereo FM
exciter
on Great Blue Hill, in Canton, MA. Those broadcasts of his were the
ultimate
in FM sound quality. GBH broadcast qaulity has steadily gone down ever
since,
and is still getting worse. The program was called Adventures in Sound.
Last I heard, is that all his tapes were in storage along with his
equipment.
One of the tapes he had was a 1st generation master of the Ozawa/BSO
Berlioz Damation of Faust as recorded by DG.
Pierre
--
Continuous, non-stop internet broadcast of 5+ hours of HAYDN SYMPHONIES
from Haydn House
Please click-> http://www.live365.com/stations/ppaquin

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Pierre, IIRC, the microphones were ribbons, not condensers. RCA 44BX, as
modified by the engineer from Cambridge Recordings, I think. He used to
sell the mics to the industry. I forget his name at the moment.
I have the CD issue but not to hand. I used to have the Lp. Demonstration
quality, despite the dry acoustic. Also recorded by the same team was a
Copland disc. Ditto re demonstration quality.
The above is from aging memory, but is fairly accurate, methinks.
Not to sound too parochial, but the Koussevitzky Isle of the Dead (both
versions, live and RCA) is an extraordinary statement. Not quite what
Rachmaninov wrote, but perhaps better. Certainly a very emotional reading
of the work. Reiner & Rachmaninov versions rather too cool for these ears.
--Kevin Mostyn

Post by Pierre Paquin
Modified Neumann U 47 or some other model were used for this Dallas
recording. I think it was ? Church. Frank maybe?
who did these mods with excellent results. I don't know who was on the
rest of the recording team for this Rach Dances recording.
I friend of mine has an analog tape copy of the master tape of this
recording. He might sitll have it.
Pierre
--
Continuous, non-stop internet broadcast of 5+ hours of HAYDN SYMPHONIES
from Haydn House
Please click-> http://www.live365.com/stations/ppaquin

Post by Mark Melson
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:51:56 -0500, "Frank Berger"

Post by Frank Berger

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found
it
the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's

Please explain how the sound of an audiophile recording can be dryish.
Thank you.

I know what he means: it was recorded in McFarlin Auditorium at
Southern Methodist University, a room (then as now) with almost no
reverberation at all, and the recording captures that dryness
faithfully. But the sound has bite and presence, and the balances are
well-judged.
Mark Melson

[Kevin P. Mostyn]

Pierre,

I remember C. Victor Campos very well. At first he wanted to do that show on
WCRB, and I had set everything up for that, but the program director and he
couldn't agree and nothing came of it. He then went to WGBH. I think,
though, the tapes were played directly into the STL transmitter at the
studio. About as good as going directly into the exciter.

He had many hundreds of tapes, copied for him by friends from the master
tapes. A bunch were Dolby A copies.

Another posting in this thread triggered my memory about the ribbon
microphones used on the Dallas recordings. The recording engineer was David
B. Hancock. He didn't design the mics, he just used them and advertised
them. I believe that I found the patent for them: U.S. Patent #03435143 .
--
Kevin Mostyn
---------------------
my real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com

Post by Pierre Paquin
Kevin,
Thanks for the update on this, mon ami.
You remember Victor Campos? he has(d) teh master tape copy and
aired it on WGBH, plugging his Studer TRs directly into the stereo FM
exciter
on Great Blue Hill, in Canton, MA. Those broadcasts of his were the
ultimate
in FM sound quality. GBH broadcast qaulity has steadily gone down ever
since,
and is still getting worse. The program was called Adventures in Sound.
Last I heard, is that all his tapes were in storage along with his
equipment.
One of the tapes he had was a 1st generation master of the Ozawa/BSO
Berlioz Damation of Faust as recorded by DG.
Pierre

[Mark Melson]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:12:59 GMT, "Kevin P. Mostyn"

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Pierre,
I remember C. Victor Campos very well. At first he wanted to do that show on
WCRB, and I had set everything up for that, but the program director and he
couldn't agree and nothing came of it. He then went to WGBH. I think,
though, the tapes were played directly into the STL transmitter at the
studio. About as good as going directly into the exciter.
He had many hundreds of tapes, copied for him by friends from the master
tapes. A bunch were Dolby A copies.
Another posting in this thread triggered my memory about the ribbon
microphones used on the Dallas recordings. The recording engineer was David
B. Hancock. He didn't design the mics, he just used them and advertised
them. I believe that I found the patent for them: U.S. Patent #03435143 .

My LP copy of Johanos' recording of the Symphonic Dances says on the
jacket that the four ribbon microphones were designed by Charles P.
Fisher of Cambridge MA. The master tape. made at 30 inches per second,
used a transport "modified to produce exceptionally good motion." The
lacquer masters "were made directly from the original tape, thus
avoiding transfer degradation" Finally - and I love this
holier-than-thou wording - "The result is a recording of exceptional
clarity, naturalness, and freedom from vices prevalent generally in
the art." Zap!

Mark Melson

[Kevin P. Mostyn]

Mark,

Yes, Fisher is the name of the inventor on the patent.
--
Kevin Mostyn
---------------------
my real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com

Post by Mark Melson
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:12:59 GMT, "Kevin P. Mostyn"

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Pierre,
I remember C. Victor Campos very well. At first he wanted to do that show on
WCRB, and I had set everything up for that, but the program director and he
couldn't agree and nothing came of it. He then went to WGBH. I think,
though, the tapes were played directly into the STL transmitter at the
studio. About as good as going directly into the exciter.
He had many hundreds of tapes, copied for him by friends from the master
tapes. A bunch were Dolby A copies.
Another posting in this thread triggered my memory about the ribbon
microphones used on the Dallas recordings. The recording engineer was David
B. Hancock. He didn't design the mics, he just used them and advertised
them. I believe that I found the patent for them: U.S. Patent #03435143 .

My LP copy of Johanos' recording of the Symphonic Dances says on the
jacket that the four ribbon microphones were designed by Charles P.
Fisher of Cambridge MA. The master tape. made at 30 inches per second,
used a transport "modified to produce exceptionally good motion." The
lacquer masters "were made directly from the original tape, thus
avoiding transfer degradation" Finally - and I love this
holier-than-thou wording - "The result is a recording of exceptional
clarity, naturalness, and freedom from vices prevalent generally in
the art." Zap!
Mark Melson

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but
it has some of the snap missing from the Philly versions)...

Agreed, and an audiophile recording, to boot. Until recently, I found it the
least-bad of a generally disappointing lot. (On an absolute basis, it's
actually a very good performance, definitely superior to the Ormandy.) My
current favorite is the JEG on DG, but -- other than a general overall
excitement -- I don't remember why it's my favorite. (Sorry.) It might be
that he does a really good job of "characterizing" each movement.

Ooops, I totally forgot that I have that, too. It is on a CD with
Taras Bulba, played by the NDRSO. I bought it for that - another
favorite piece of mine, and the performance is pretty good, but did
not impress me particularly. I don't remember even listening to the
SD as I wasn't so much into the music at that time.
Most of my CDs are still in moving boxes, so I probed into a few of
them and actually found the CD, so I will listen to it later tonight.

Another version I rather liked but forgot to mention is Bychkov's with
the WDRSO. That one may not be the most exciting, "driven" version,
but it certainly is among the most lush and luxuriously played and
sounding. Bychkov also pays a lot of attention to fine musical detail
and subtle nuances of color. Overall, his reading is rather elegiac,
especially in the slow middle section of the first part which is more
introvertly played here than on any other recording I have heard.

Post by William Sommerwerck
As for "Isle of the Dead"...
I've always liked the Horenstein, still available from Chesky (paired with
the PC2). Horenstein takes his time (without schlepping), and the mood is
morbidly dark, lightening a bit only toward the end. As you really "ought"
to own the Wild/Horenstein recordings, this disk is, as the Brits say,
self-recommending.

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Sol L. Siegel
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).

Oh, yes, I forgot, I already have the Kondrashin recording, but I
wouldn't generally recommend it. Only to Kondrashin fans (like myself)
and/or fans to the style of playing of Russian orchestras in that
period (like myself). It is a white hot, in places maybe overdriven.
What I generally like bout Kondrashin though is that while he often
cranks up the intensity, he still pays attention to interesting detail
(like the way the trumpets start the syncopated dies irae motif
towards the end a little softer than usual and then play the motif
with a steep crescendo/descrescendo in the middle.

Post by Sol L. Siegel
Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played.  Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.

Yes, I definitely want to get that. Any recommendations for the best
transfer? I have Svetlanov, too, but I haven't listened to it in a
while. I am sure I will relisten to it very soon though!

Post by Sol L. Siegel
 - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Allen]

Post by Sol L. Siegel
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).
Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played. Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

I totally agree about the Johanos Dances, but I have always been puzzled
why thew Ives Holidays Symphony was split between two discs when it
would have been very easy to have rearranged things so that nothing
would be split. I bought that set for the Ives, and it is still my
favorite performance. A bonus was that I found out that the Dances were
worth listening to, contrary to my opinion of most of R's works.
Allen

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Allen

Post by Sol L. Siegel
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).
Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played. Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

I totally agree about the Johanos Dances, but I have always been puzzled
why thew Ives Holidays Symphony was split between two discs when it
would have been very easy to have rearranged things so that nothing
would be split. I bought that set for the Ives, and it is still my
favorite performance. A bonus was that I found out that the Dances were
worth listening to, contrary to my opinion of most of R's works.
Allen

For even more bonus, you should generally review your opinion about
Rachmaninoff. I have only come to really appreciate his music fairly
recently - I always kind of liked it, but not very much, sort of like,
nice to listen to, maybe a little long and tedious sometimes, maybe a
little bit "thick" - but in the last weeks and months somehow, it
totally "clicked" for me. I think before that, I simply didn't "get"
the music, only heard it very superficially, heard the nice melodies
and interesting colors, but did not "see" the "whole picture", if you
know what I mean. Lately, I have been on a massive Rachmaninoff trip.
I more and more see the astonishing originality and inventiveness of
his music, I don't think it's "kitschy" at all - intense, emotional,
dramatic, yes, but also genuine, not melodramatic or kitschy. The
Symphonic Dances, for instance, are a work of pure genius, how
Rachmaninoff fuses all these different elements together into these
three very compelling movements of music is highly impressive.

[Bob Harper]

Michael Schaffer wrote:
(snip)

Post by Michael Schaffer
For even more bonus, you should generally review your opinion about
Rachmaninoff. I have only come to really appreciate his music fairly
recently - I always kind of liked it, but not very much, sort of like,
nice to listen to, maybe a little long and tedious sometimes, maybe a
little bit "thick" - but in the last weeks and months somehow, it
totally "clicked" for me. I think before that, I simply didn't "get"
the music, only heard it very superficially, heard the nice melodies
and interesting colors, but did not "see" the "whole picture", if you
know what I mean. Lately, I have been on a massive Rachmaninoff trip.
I more and more see the astonishing originality and inventiveness of
his music, I don't think it's "kitschy" at all - intense, emotional,
dramatic, yes, but also genuine, not melodramatic or kitschy. The
Symphonic Dances, for instance, are a work of pure genius, how
Rachmaninoff fuses all these different elements together into these
three very compelling movements of music is highly impressive.

Michael, have you read Culshaw's book on Rachmaninoff? He's with you--as
am I.

Bob Harper

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Bob Harper
(snip)

Post by Michael Schaffer
For even more bonus, you should generally review your opinion about
Rachmaninoff. I have only come to really appreciate his music fairly
recently - I always kind of liked it, but not very much, sort of like,
nice to listen to, maybe a little long and tedious sometimes, maybe a
little bit "thick" - but in the last weeks and months somehow, it
totally "clicked" for me. I think before that, I simply didn't "get"
the music, only heard it very superficially, heard the nice melodies
and interesting colors, but did not "see" the "whole picture", if you
know what I mean. Lately, I have been on a massive Rachmaninoff trip.
I more and more see the astonishing originality and inventiveness of
his music, I don't think it's "kitschy" at all - intense, emotional,
dramatic, yes, but also genuine, not melodramatic or kitschy. The
Symphonic Dances, for instance, are a work of pure genius, how
Rachmaninoff fuses all these different elements together into these
three very compelling movements of music is highly impressive.

Michael, have you read Culshaw's book on Rachmaninoff? He's with you--as
am I.
Bob Harper- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I didn't even know there was a book by Culshaw about Rachmaninoff. I
don't really know much about the subject in general. But I will
definitely have to do some reading up about him, as well as more
listening, including to his own recordings as conductor and pianist,
of course. Pretty much the only background about him I have is that at
the music academy, we had a Russian music theory teacher (and music
theory books printed in the USSR, as this was in Weimar in former East
Germany only 2 years after the fall of the wall). And they were full
with examples for very advanced harmonic modulations drawn from works
by Rachmaninoff. I gained a first understanding then that his music
wasn't just thick harmonies and long melodies, but that he was
actually a very original and, get this, *progressive* musical thinker
who explored far-reaching paths into harmonic worlds no one before him
did. That knowledge still didn't mean that his music really "clicked"
with me back then, but I think I am finally beginning to "get' it.

[Rugby]

On Aug 12, 1:04 am, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:
but I think I am finally beginning to "get' it.


Favorites of mine are the Cello Sonata, Op.39 Etudes, Op.32 Preludes,
1st Piano Sonata, and the surprisingly attractive Symphony No.1,
"surprisingly" given its historical condemnation.

Regards,Rugby

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Allen

Post by Sol L. Siegel
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).
Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played. Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

I totally agree about the Johanos Dances, but I have always been puzzled
why thew Ives Holidays Symphony was split between two discs when it
would have been very easy to have rearranged things so that nothing
would be split. I bought that set for the Ives, and it is still my
favorite performance. A bonus was that I found out that the Dances were
worth listening to, contrary to my opinion of most of R's works.
Allen

For even more bonus, you should generally review your opinion about
Rachmaninoff. I have only come to really appreciate his music fairly
recently - I always kind of liked it, but not very much, sort of like,
nice to listen to, maybe a little long and tedious sometimes, maybe a
little bit "thick" - but in the last weeks and months somehow, it
totally "clicked" for me. I think before that, I simply didn't "get"
the music, only heard it very superficially, heard the nice melodies
and interesting colors, but did not "see" the "whole picture", if you
know what I mean. Lately, I have been on a massive Rachmaninoff trip.
I more and more see the astonishing originality and inventiveness of
his music, I don't think it's "kitschy" at all - intense, emotional,
dramatic, yes, but also genuine, not melodramatic or kitschy. The
Symphonic Dances, for instance, are a work of pure genius, how
Rachmaninoff fuses all these different elements together into these
three very compelling movements of music is highly impressive.

Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

--Jeff

[Dawg]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Allen

Post by Sol L. Siegel
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).
Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played. Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

I totally agree about the Johanos Dances, but I have always been puzzled
why thew Ives Holidays Symphony was split between two discs when it
would have been very easy to have rearranged things so that nothing
would be split. I bought that set for the Ives, and it is still my
favorite performance. A bonus was that I found out that the Dances were
worth listening to, contrary to my opinion of most of R's works.
Allen

For even more bonus, you should generally review your opinion about
Rachmaninoff. I have only come to really appreciate his music fairly
recently - I always kind of liked it, but not very much, sort of like,
nice to listen to, maybe a little long and tedious sometimes, maybe a
little bit "thick" - but in the last weeks and months somehow, it
totally "clicked" for me. I think before that, I simply didn't "get"
the music, only heard it very superficially, heard the nice melodies
and interesting colors, but did not "see" the "whole picture", if you
know what I mean. Lately, I have been on a massive Rachmaninoff trip.
I more and more see the astonishing originality and inventiveness of
his music, I don't think it's "kitschy" at all - intense, emotional,
dramatic, yes, but also genuine, not melodramatic or kitschy. The
Symphonic Dances, for instance, are a work of pure genius, how
Rachmaninoff fuses all these different elements together into these
three very compelling movements of music is highly impressive.

Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.
--Jeff

Fwiw, I think that Rach got a bit too typecast with his 2nd piano
concerto, but as has already been discussed, he is a much better
composer than this over-popular work suggests.

I like his symphonies too, and all are excellent, especially No.3, which
shares some of the texture and feel of his Symphonic Dances.

Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"***@aol.com" <***@aol.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:52eae229-7f32-4804-a005-

Post by j***@aol.com
Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

Yes, but if you get Järvi's recordings on DGG, try to get the earlier edition
and not the Trio box, because some geniuses at the label decided that we
don't deserve to have texts and translations any more.

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:52eae229-7f32-4804-a005-

Post by j***@aol.com
Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

Yes, but if you get Järvi's recordings on DGG, try to get the earlier edition
and not the Trio box, because some geniuses at the label decided that we
don't deserve to have texts and translations any more.

If the Trio release didn't cost 1/2 the price of the original release,
maybe you'd have a point.

Steve

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Steve de Mena

following letters to be typed in news:52eae229-7f32-4804-a005-

Post by j***@aol.com
Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

Yes, but if you get Järvi's recordings on DGG, try to get the earlier
edition and not the Trio box, because some geniuses at the label
decided that we don't deserve to have texts and translations any more.

If the Trio release didn't cost 1/2 the price of the original release,
maybe you'd have a point.

What is the value of knowing what the !@#$%^& singers are singing *about*?
Less, or more, than that ostensible saving? I haunted eBay for months
until I finally found that earlier version, and even though I paid more than
I would have for the Trio release, and I feel I got my money's worth. This
ain't no !@#$%^& "La Boheme," you know. Now, if there were libretti for
these operas easily findable online, maybe *you'd* have a point.

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Steve de Mena

following letters to be typed in news:52eae229-7f32-4804-a005-

Post by j***@aol.com
Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

Yes, but if you get Järvi's recordings on DGG, try to get the earlier
edition and not the Trio box, because some geniuses at the label
decided that we don't deserve to have texts and translations any more.

If the Trio release didn't cost 1/2 the price of the original release,
maybe you'd have a point.

Less, or more, than that ostensible saving? I haunted eBay for months
until I finally found that earlier version, and even though I paid more than
I would have for the Trio release, and I feel I got my money's worth. This
these operas easily findable online, maybe *you'd* have a point.

The original release with libretto that "everyone would want" probably
sold 1-2 thousand copies tops, at which time they naturally deleted
it. So they could either never reissue it again or reissue it as
economically as possible. I'll bet they have sold more copies of the
Trio version.

Used copies of the older version are available for diehards. I found
my copy a couple of hours ago on Amazon for $21.

Steve

[Paige Turner]

My favorite Symphonic Variations is the old Goosens (Everest), briefly
available on CD in an excellent remastering. I did not imprint on it,
but had the old LP stored for years. One time I took it out and played
it (it is coupled with Stravinsky's Rite of Spring) and wow...
spectacular performance. Check it out.

Kind regards

pt

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Paige Turner
My favorite Symphonic Variations is the old Goosens (Everest), briefly
available on CD in an excellent remastering. I did not imprint on it,
but had the old LP stored for years. One time I took it out and played
it (it is coupled with Stravinsky's Rite of Spring) and wow...
spectacular performance. Check it out.
Kind regards
pt

Is that on "Everest"?

[Alan Cooper]

Post by Paige Turner
My favorite Symphonic Variations is the old Goosens (Everest),
briefly available on CD in an excellent remastering. I did not
imprint on it, but had the old LP stored for years. One time I
took it out and played it (it is coupled with Stravinsky's Rite
of Spring) and wow... spectacular performance. Check it out.

That was my imprint performance, in fact, although over time I found it stodgy in
comparison with others (esp. Kondrashin). The original LP issue, which I still have
somewhere, was a 2-LP foldout album in which the Symphonic Dances were c/w Respighi's
Feste Romane. Each work was spread out over two sides to accommodate the wide
dynamic range, and the album notes feature some charming purple prose about the great
leap forward in sound reproduction that the recordings represented.

AC

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Steve de Mena

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Steve de Mena

following letters to be typed in news:52eae229-7f32-4804-a005-

Post by j***@aol.com
Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

Yes, but if you get Järvi's recordings on DGG, try to get the earlier
edition and not the Trio box, because some geniuses at the label
decided that we don't deserve to have texts and translations any more.

If the Trio release didn't cost 1/2 the price of the original release,
maybe you'd have a point.

Less, or more, than that ostensible saving? I haunted eBay for months
until I finally found that earlier version, and even though I paid more than
I would have for the Trio release, and I feel I got my money's worth. This
these operas easily findable online, maybe *you'd* have a point.

The original release with libretto that "everyone would want" probably
sold 1-2 thousand copies tops, at which time they naturally deleted
it. So they could either never reissue it again or reissue it as
economically as possible. I'll bet they have sold more copies of the
Trio version.
Used copies of the older version are available for diehards. I found
my copy a couple of hours ago on Amazon for $21.
Steve

Relax, everybody. I got my copy for half that on Chant du Monde or
some other label for Russian performance. No need to fret over Jarvi's
libretti here.

--Jeff

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Steve de Mena

following letters to be typed in news:52eae229-7f32-4804-a005-

Post by j***@aol.com
Don't stop with the orchestral music, of course. In addition to the
piano music, chamber music, and songs, I was delighted to discover his
operas are well worth hearing too.

Yes, but if you get Järvi's recordings on DGG, try to get the earlier
edition and not the Trio box, because some geniuses at the label
decided that we don't deserve to have texts and translations any more.

If the Trio release didn't cost 1/2 the price of the original release,
maybe you'd have a point.

Less, or more, than that ostensible saving? I haunted eBay for months
until I finally found that earlier version, and even though I paid more than
I would have for the Trio release, and I feel I got my money's worth. This
Now, if there were libretti for
these operas easily findable online, maybe *you'd* have a point.

http://tinyurl.com/6jhzax

Steve

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Steve de Mena

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Now, if there were libretti for
these operas easily findable online, maybe *you'd* have a point.

http://tinyurl.com/6jhzax

Very good, and thanks, but I don't think these existed a few yearsa ago when
I decided I wanted the integral set of recordings on DGG. When did Naxos
issue their own?

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Steve de Mena

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Now, if there were libretti for
these operas easily findable online, maybe *you'd* have a point.

http://tinyurl.com/6jhzax

Very good, and thanks, but I don't think these existed a few yearsa ago when
I decided I wanted the integral set of recordings on DGG.  When did Naxos
issue their own?
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

The question though is how good are these recordings musically? Given
the many, many, many recordings Järvi has made, many of them very
obviously without actually knowing the music well, I am always very
careful to buy anything with his name on it. He also has a recording
of the Symphonic Dances (surprise!) on Chandos, and that *might* be
interesting, more because it is played by the Philharmonia than
because of him.

[Allen]

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by Allen

Post by Sol L. Siegel
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

Post by Michael Schaffer
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances: Johanos/Dallas (dryish sound, but it has some of the
snap missing from the Philly versions) and Kondrashin (despite
thatll-too-Russian brass).
Isle: Svetlanov from the 1960s, one of those volcanic readings that
sound as if the music is being composed as it's being played. Don't
rule out the composer's brooding, authoritative account, despite the
1929 sound (it comes off fairly well on RCA) and the small cuts.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

I totally agree about the Johanos Dances, but I have always been puzzled
why thew Ives Holidays Symphony was split between two discs when it
would have been very easy to have rearranged things so that nothing
would be split. I bought that set for the Ives, and it is still my
favorite performance. A bonus was that I found out that the Dances were
worth listening to, contrary to my opinion of most of R's works.
Allen

For even more bonus, you should generally review your opinion about
Rachmaninoff. I have only come to really appreciate his music fairly
recently - I always kind of liked it, but not very much, sort of like,
nice to listen to, maybe a little long and tedious sometimes, maybe a
little bit "thick" - but in the last weeks and months somehow, it
totally "clicked" for me. I think before that, I simply didn't "get"
the music, only heard it very superficially, heard the nice melodies
and interesting colors, but did not "see" the "whole picture", if you
know what I mean. Lately, I have been on a massive Rachmaninoff trip.
I more and more see the astonishing originality and inventiveness of
his music, I don't think it's "kitschy" at all - intense, emotional,
dramatic, yes, but also genuine, not melodramatic or kitschy. The
Symphonic Dances, for instance, are a work of pure genius, how
Rachmaninoff fuses all these different elements together into these
three very compelling movements of music is highly impressive.

Way back when (55 to 65 years ago), I listened to and liked Rach; also
Tchaikovsky, Wagner, and a few others from that time, but I guess I ODed
on it, as I find it a bit too much nowadays. If I should live another
55-65 years two things might happen: First, I would be a marvel of the
scientific/medical world with daily press updates generally saying
"still alive!", and I most likely would find composers such as
Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Penderecki etc on my "Not again!" list. There
are a few works by Rach that I like--among them the Dances, All Night
Vigil (Vespers) and Isle of the Dead. I am also fascinated by his
ability to work the Dies Irae into almost everything he did. My wife
used to teach a lot of church classes and she always asked me to find
some music for them. One time she was to do Micah and Zephaniah and said
that I would probably find something for Micah but not Zephaniah. I
skimmed Zephaniah and told her that I could find a year's worth of stuff
from it, as the text for the Dies Irae came almost word for word out of
it; I used some Rach (as I recall, Isle of the Dead) but I could have
picked almost anything by him, limited only by the length. A side note:
another time she was doing some of the Psalms and I picked one section
of Steve Reich's Tehillim. As most of the class were women in their 70s
and 80s, I was a little leery of using it, but what the hell, I
thought--let them hear something new to their ears. She started it but
ran out of time before it ended. Every person in the class was upset and
asked her to please, please let it finish.
Allen

[Rugby]

On Aug 10, 7:21 pm, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:

OT, but here are the Dances in the 2 -piano version played at 2008
Verbier by Lugansky and Berezovsky:

www.medici.tv/#/movie/362/

Rugby

[JohnGavin]

On Aug 10, 8:21 pm, Michael Schaffer <***@gmail.com> wrote:
Other versions I liked were Maazel/BP (DG) which is

Post by Michael Schaffer
extremely well played and pays a lot of attention to balances and fine
detail, but unfortunately, part of the fun is spoilt by the very dry
and bright recording,

Yes, agreed. Also, I find the Maazel/Berlin approach to Rachmaninoff
a bit too clinical - just a tad uptight emotionally.

[Ed Presson]

Post by Michael Schaffer
I have been going through a large pile of recordings of the Symphonic
Dances recently. I had known and liked the piece for a while, but not
listened to it for a long time. A concert I heard with the NYP and
Dutoit rekindled my interest in this incredibly original and inventive
piece. Unfortunately, dutoit's own recording with the PhilaO (Decca)
is a little disappointing. So is Ormandy's (Sony) which is a real
disappointment, especially given that he premiered the piece. But the
recording doesn't even suggest particular familiarity with the music
or its style. It is just very tired and univolved. A pity.
So far, my favorites are Janson's two accounts with the StPP (EMI),
closely followed, but leading his live recording with the RCO (RCO
live). His readings have everything. Rhythm, color, expressivity,
drive, great playing from both orchestras and also nice sound (very
close and direct on EMI, more distant but well balanced and capturing
the acoustics of the hall well on RCO live). Ashkenazy's recording
with the RCO is also very good and rather "exciting", but he cares
little for color and small details, and a lot of that is washed out in
the boomy recording in which the Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar. Other versions I liked were Maazel/BP (DG) which is
extremely well played and pays a lot of attention to balances and fine
detail, but unfortunately, part of the fun is spoilt by the very dry
and bright recording, and Zinman/BalSO (Telarc) which isn't quite on
the same level orchestrally as the others but very meticulously
prepared and transparently played.
I also started to listen to a number of versions of Isle of the Dead.
So far, the one I like best is Reiner/CSO (RCA), a very sombre and to-
the-point account in a recording which is rather good for its age
(1957, as I was told here) which works very well in this piece -
things can get mushy very easily as they do in Ashkenazy's recording
in which the orchestra textures aren't as well controlled and the
already mentioned boomy recording mashes everything together too much.
Dutoit's PhilaO recording (Decca) is more athmospheric, but here the
recording is too soft-focus and too distant, too. Decca apparently
wanted to re-create some kind of "classic Philadelphia sound", but
what they do doesn't work so well.
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

My favorites:

Symphonic Dances: (1) Ashkenazy (I don't concur with the criticism of the
sound) for its exploration of the "dark side" and diablerie of the music,
and (2) Goossens (Everest) for the "coiled spring" tension that he builds
from the first movement to the last.

There are recordings on Telarc (Zinman, I think); Reference Recordings (Oue
sp?), and Decca (Dutoit) that have better sound, perhaps; but I don't find
any of the three performances come close to my favorites.

Isle of the Dead: Reiner; I've have not heard another recording that comes
close.

YMMV, of course.

Ed Presson

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Michael Schaffer
I have been going through a large pile of recordings of the Symphonic
Dances recently. I had known and liked the piece for a while, but not
listened to it for a long time. A concert I heard with the NYP and
Dutoit rekindled my interest in this incredibly original and inventive
piece. Unfortunately, dutoit's own recording with the PhilaO (Decca)
is a little disappointing. So is Ormandy's (Sony) which is a real
disappointment, especially given that he premiered the piece. But the
recording doesn't even suggest particular familiarity with the music
or its style. It is just very tired and univolved. A pity.
So far, my favorites are Janson's two accounts with the StPP (EMI),
closely followed, but leading his live recording with the RCO (RCO
live). His readings have everything. Rhythm, color, expressivity,
drive, great playing from both orchestras and also nice sound (very
close and direct on EMI, more distant but well balanced and capturing
the acoustics of the hall well on RCO live). Ashkenazy's recording
with the RCO is also very good and rather "exciting", but he cares
little for color and small details, and a lot of that is washed out in
the boomy recording in which the Concertgebouw sounds like a massive
airplane hangar. Other versions I liked were Maazel/BP (DG) which is
extremely well played and pays a lot of attention to balances and fine
detail, but unfortunately, part of the fun is spoilt by the very dry
and bright recording, and Zinman/BalSO (Telarc) which isn't quite on
the same level orchestrally as the others but very meticulously
prepared and transparently played.
I also started to listen to a number of versions of Isle of the Dead.
So far, the one I like best is Reiner/CSO (RCA), a very sombre and to-
the-point account in a recording which is rather good for its age
(1957, as I was told here) which works very well in this piece -
things can get mushy very easily as they do in Ashkenazy's recording
in which the orchestra textures aren't as well controlled and the
already mentioned boomy recording mashes everything together too much.
Dutoit's PhilaO recording (Decca) is more athmospheric, but here the
recording is too soft-focus and too distant, too. Decca apparently
wanted to re-create some kind of "classic Philadelphia sound", but
what they do doesn't work so well.
What are your favorites? Please don't just list names, also say why.

Symphonic Dances:  (1) Ashkenazy (I don't concur with the criticism of the
sound) for its exploration of the "dark side" and diablerie of the music,
and (2) Goossens (Everest) for the "coiled spring" tension that he builds
from the first movement to the last.

Or maybe because no one else recommends it? ;-)

There are recordings on Telarc (Zinman, I think); Reference Recordings (Oue
sp?), and Decca (Dutoit) that have better sound, perhaps; but I don't find
any of the three performances come close to my favorites.
Isle of the Dead:  Reiner; I've have not heard another recording that comes
close.
YMMV, of course.
Ed Presson- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -