Discussion:
the early days with the original cast
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2019-11-29 09:44:01 UTC
Permalink
1) Directing the play is easier now than the early days with the original cast.

2) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, with the original cast.

3) Directing the play is easier now than the early days when we had the original cast.

4) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, when we had the original cast.

Are all of the above sentences grammatical and correctly punctuated?
Are they idiomatic?


Which mean:
a) There were the early days with the original cast and then there were the
later days with the original cast and we are comparing now with the former

and which mean:

b) In the early days we had the original cast and now things are better than
the early days

I think '4' corresponds to 'b'. I am not sure the other three work.

Gratefully,
Navi
Peter Moylan
2019-11-29 10:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Directing the play is easier now than the early days with the original cast.
2) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, with the original cast.
3) Directing the play is easier now than the early days when we had the original cast.
4) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, when we had the original cast.
Are all of the above sentences grammatical and correctly punctuated?
Are they idiomatic?
Before even trying to compare these sentences, I would insert "it was"
after every occurrence of "than". Then we could start discussing what
should follow the "was".

Without that insertion, you are trying to compare "directing the play"
with "the early days", a comparison that makes no sense.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jack
2019-11-29 11:19:59 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:01:52 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Directing the play is easier now than the early days with the original cast.
2) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, with the original cast.
3) Directing the play is easier now than the early days when we had the original cast.
4) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, when we had the original cast.
Are all of the above sentences grammatical and correctly punctuated?
Are they idiomatic?
Before even trying to compare these sentences, I would insert "it was"
after every occurrence of "than". Then we could start discussing what
should follow the "was".
Without that insertion, you are trying to compare "directing the play"
with "the early days", a comparison that makes no sense.
Another way to make them work is to in
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-29 16:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Directing the play is easier now than the early days with the original cast.
2) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, with the original cast.
3) Directing the play is easier now than the early days when we had the original cast.
4) Directing the play is easier now than the early days, when we had the original cast.
Are all of the above sentences grammatical and correctly punctuated?
Are they idiomatic?
No. You need "in" before "the early days." Only (2) would not work.
But presence of a comma is not something to hang such judgments on.
Post by a***@gmail.com
a) There were the early days with the original cast and then there were the
later days with the original cast and we are comparing now with the former
b) In the early days we had the original cast and now things are better than
the early days
I think '4' corresponds to 'b'. I am not sure the other three work.
It seems unlikely that any version is true, because with a show that
has a history, the original version is always in the back of the mind
of the current cast.
Snidely
2019-12-06 10:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
a) There were the early days with the original cast and then there were the
later days with the original cast and we are comparing now with the former
This has me shaking my head, but I suppose it makes some sort of sense
for some shows that have run for decades.

The Simpsons, As The World Turns, and a few others. Maybe someone will
want to talk about how many years Coronation Street ran.

/dps
--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-06 16:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by a***@gmail.com
a) There were the early days with the original cast and then there were the
later days with the original cast and we are comparing now with the former
This has me shaking my head, but I suppose it makes some sort of sense
for some shows that have run for decades.
The Simpsons, As The World Turns, and a few others. Maybe someone will
want to talk about how many years Coronation Street ran.
Last week's Simpsons ("Thanksgiving of Horror I") included a nightmare
scene featuring both the late Mrs. Ned Flanders and the late Edna
Krabapple. They included clips of their voices, and the closing credits
included as "Guest Voices" both a name unknown to me (presumably the
voicer of Mrs. Flanders -- I don't know whether she perished on the
show because the performer died) and the late Marcia Wallace, who was
Edna Krabapple for many years. (Marcia Wallace was probably best known
as Dr. Bob Hartley's receptionist on *The Bob Newhart Show*, but she
appeared on countless sitcoms and as a panelist on countless game shows.)

Hmm, "Hartley" sprang to mind immediately, but I don't know the family
name of Bob the Innkeeper on *Newhart!*, the series with the greatest
final moment of any television series in history.
RH Draney
2019-12-06 21:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Last week's Simpsons ("Thanksgiving of Horror I") included a nightmare
scene featuring both the late Mrs. Ned Flanders and the late Edna
Krabapple. They included clips of their voices, and the closing credits
included as "Guest Voices" both a name unknown to me (presumably the
voicer of Mrs. Flanders -- I don't know whether she perished on the
show because the performer died) and the late Marcia Wallace, who was
Edna Krabapple for many years. (Marcia Wallace was probably best known
as Dr. Bob Hartley's receptionist on *The Bob Newhart Show*, but she
appeared on countless sitcoms and as a panelist on countless game shows.)
Marcia Wallace was also one of three different women who played the
secretary "Betty" at McMann & Tate on "Bewitched"...that show had a
great tradition of recasting characters with different actors (most
notably Darren, but also nosy neighbor Gladys Kravitz and the boss's
wife Louise Tate)....

In the matter of crediting dead former cast members, the program guide
for current episodes of "South Park" on my cable box lists Isaac Hayes
as one of the stars....
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Hmm, "Hartley" sprang to mind immediately, but I don't know the family
name of Bob the Innkeeper on *Newhart!*, the series with the greatest
final moment of any television series in history.
"Dick Loudon"...not a Bob at all....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-07 13:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Last week's Simpsons ("Thanksgiving of Horror I") included a nightmare
scene featuring both the late Mrs. Ned Flanders and the late Edna
Krabapple. They included clips of their voices, and the closing credits
included as "Guest Voices" both a name unknown to me (presumably the
voicer of Mrs. Flanders -- I don't know whether she perished on the
show because the performer died) and the late Marcia Wallace, who was
Edna Krabapple for many years. (Marcia Wallace was probably best known
as Dr. Bob Hartley's receptionist on *The Bob Newhart Show*, but she
appeared on countless sitcoms and as a panelist on countless game shows.)
Marcia Wallace was also one of three different women who played the
secretary "Betty" at McMann & Tate on "Bewitched"...that show had a
great tradition of recasting characters with different actors (most
notably Darren, but also nosy neighbor Gladys Kravitz and the boss's
wife Louise Tate)....
In the matter of crediting dead former cast members, the program guide
for current episodes of "South Park" on my cable box lists Isaac Hayes
as one of the stars....
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Hmm, "Hartley" sprang to mind immediately, but I don't know the family
name of Bob the Innkeeper on *Newhart!*, the series with the greatest
final moment of any television series in history.
"Dick Loudon"...not a Bob at all....r
It all seems like a dream ...

He tried a third time, with *Bob!*, which featured fellow Chicagoan
George Wendt, fresh from eleven years of *Cheers*. I think it lasted
half a season, if that.

Wendt did almost as many SNLs as Alec Baldwin has the last two seasons,
because they couldn't do a "Da Bearss" sketch without him.
RH Draney
2019-12-07 15:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Hmm, "Hartley" sprang to mind immediately, but I don't know the family
name of Bob the Innkeeper on *Newhart!*, the series with the greatest
final moment of any television series in history.
"Dick Loudon"...not a Bob at all....r
It all seems like a dream ...
He tried a third time, with *Bob!*, which featured fellow Chicagoan
George Wendt, fresh from eleven years of *Cheers*. I think it lasted
half a season, if that.
One full season and about half another (33 episodes in all)...Wendt was
only in a single episode....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-07 22:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Hmm, "Hartley" sprang to mind immediately, but I don't know the family
name of Bob the Innkeeper on *Newhart!*, the series with the greatest
final moment of any television series in history.
"Dick Loudon"...not a Bob at all....r
It all seems like a dream ...
He tried a third time, with *Bob!*, which featured fellow Chicagoan
George Wendt, fresh from eleven years of *Cheers*. I think it lasted
half a season, if that.
One full season and about half another (33 episodes in all)...Wendt was
only in a single episode....r
? Well, _some_ well-known Chicago actor was in it! Not Joan or John Cusack.
(Though she was in another short-lived Chicago series about an apartment
building across the street from Wrigley Field -- probably Not Suitable for
the national audience.)

I wonder if it was one of those shows that did so badly but they were
committed to produce it so they bounced it around the schedule so if
someone _did_ want to follow it, it was almost impossible.

CBS just did that to *Sunnyside* so they could bring back an unneeded
second season of the Will & Grace reboot, and moved it to on-line only.
You don't do that to Kal Penn!
RH Draney
2019-12-07 23:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
He tried a third time, with *Bob!*, which featured fellow Chicagoan
George Wendt, fresh from eleven years of *Cheers*. I think it lasted
half a season, if that.
One full season and about half another (33 episodes in all)...Wendt was
only in a single episode....r
? Well, _some_ well-known Chicago actor was in it! Not Joan or John Cusack.
(Though she was in another short-lived Chicago series about an apartment
building across the street from Wrigley Field -- probably Not Suitable for
the national audience.)
I'm looking through the cast and don't see any prominent names
associated with Chicago, apart from Betty White who was brought in for
the second-season reboot...perhaps you're thinking of some other show
altogether?...r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-08 13:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
He tried a third time, with *Bob!*, which featured fellow Chicagoan
George Wendt, fresh from eleven years of *Cheers*. I think it lasted
half a season, if that.
One full season and about half another (33 episodes in all)...Wendt was
only in a single episode....r
? Well, _some_ well-known Chicago actor was in it! Not Joan or John Cusack.
(Though she was in another short-lived Chicago series about an apartment
building across the street from Wrigley Field -- probably Not Suitable for
the national audience.)
I'm looking through the cast and don't see any prominent names
associated with Chicago, apart from Betty White who was brought in for
the second-season reboot...perhaps you're thinking of some other show
altogether?...r
I don't think Bob Newhart had any other failures ... except his SNL gig,
where he did the Empire State Building bit for the monologue and seemed
puzzled that he had no audience response at all ...

Betty White from Chicago? She had several bios around her recent landmark
birthdays, and she was based in L.A. (and Allen was based in N.Y., which
delayed their romance for a full year ...)
RH Draney
2019-12-08 20:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
I'm looking through the cast and don't see any prominent names
associated with Chicago, apart from Betty White who was brought in for
the second-season reboot...perhaps you're thinking of some other show
altogether?...r
I don't think Bob Newhart had any other failures ... except his SNL gig,
where he did the Empire State Building bit for the monologue and seemed
puzzled that he had no audience response at all ...
Would you call "George and Leo" a failure?...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Betty White from Chicago? She had several bios around her recent landmark
birthdays, and she was based in L.A. (and Allen was based in N.Y., which
delayed their romance for a full year ...)
Wiki says she's originally from Oak Park...everyone else on "Bob" was
from one of the coasts, so she's the closest other than Bob himself to a
Chicagoan....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-09 00:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
I'm looking through the cast and don't see any prominent names
associated with Chicago, apart from Betty White who was brought in for
the second-season reboot...perhaps you're thinking of some other show
altogether?...r
I don't think Bob Newhart had any other failures ... except his SNL gig,
where he did the Empire State Building bit for the monologue and seemed
puzzled that he had no audience response at all ...
Would you call "George and Leo" a failure?...
No, because I've never heard of it. Maybe that makes it a failure!
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Betty White from Chicago? She had several bios around her recent landmark
birthdays, and she was based in L.A. (and Allen was based in N.Y., which
delayed their romance for a full year ...)
Wiki says she's originally from Oak Park...everyone else on "Bob" was
from one of the coasts, so she's the closest other than Bob himself to a
Chicagoan....r
Tony Cooper
2019-12-09 02:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
I'm looking through the cast and don't see any prominent names
associated with Chicago, apart from Betty White who was brought in for
the second-season reboot...perhaps you're thinking of some other show
altogether?...r
I don't think Bob Newhart had any other failures ... except his SNL gig,
where he did the Empire State Building bit for the monologue and seemed
puzzled that he had no audience response at all ...
Would you call "George and Leo" a failure?...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Betty White from Chicago? She had several bios around her recent landmark
birthdays, and she was based in L.A. (and Allen was based in N.Y., which
delayed their romance for a full year ...)
Wiki says she's originally from Oak Park...everyone else on "Bob" was
from one of the coasts, so she's the closest other than Bob himself to a
Chicagoan....r
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?

In many US places, a city is surrounded by incorporated suburbs. A
person born in a hospital in one city, but of parents who live in
different, but nearby, city. For example, one of my grandsons was
born in a hospital in one suburb of Orlando, but the family lived in a
different suburb of Orlando.

Should he become famous, would he be listed as born in the city where
the hospital was, the city where his mother and father lived at the
time, or in Orlando? (Orlando is the only one of the three that would
be a recognizable city name to most readers of something like
Wikipedia.)

A circle with a diameter of 5 miles would include parts of all three.

Oak Park IL (population: 52,000)is a village, not a city, but let's
set aside that aspect. Unless one is a Frank Lloyd Wright or Ernest
Hemingway fan, Oak Park is not a city well-known outside of the
Chicago area.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-09 02:58:04 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Betty White from Chicago? She had several bios around her recent landmark
birthdays, and she was based in L.A. (and Allen was based in N.Y., which
delayed their romance for a full year ...)
Wiki says she's originally from Oak Park...everyone else on "Bob" was
from one of the coasts, so she's the closest other than Bob himself to a
Chicagoan....r
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
In many US places, a city is surrounded by incorporated suburbs. A
person born in a hospital in one city, but of parents who live in
different, but nearby, city. For example, one of my grandsons was
born in a hospital in one suburb of Orlando, but the family lived in a
different suburb of Orlando.
Should he become famous, would he be listed as born in the city where
the hospital was, the city where his mother and father lived at the
time, or in Orlando? (Orlando is the only one of the three that would
be a recognizable city name to most readers of something like
Wikipedia.)
A circle with a diameter of 5 miles would include parts of all three.
Oak Park IL (population: 52,000)is a village, not a city, but let's
set aside that aspect. Unless one is a Frank Lloyd Wright or Ernest
Hemingway fan, Oak Park is not a city well-known outside of the
Chicago area.
And is readily confused with Oak Forest, Forest Park, and Park
Forest, and maybe other suburbs of Chicago.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-12-09 03:20:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 19:58:04 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Betty White from Chicago? She had several bios around her recent landmark
birthdays, and she was based in L.A. (and Allen was based in N.Y., which
delayed their romance for a full year ...)
Wiki says she's originally from Oak Park...everyone else on "Bob" was
from one of the coasts, so she's the closest other than Bob himself to a
Chicagoan....r
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
In many US places, a city is surrounded by incorporated suburbs. A
person born in a hospital in one city, but of parents who live in
different, but nearby, city. For example, one of my grandsons was
born in a hospital in one suburb of Orlando, but the family lived in a
different suburb of Orlando.
Should he become famous, would he be listed as born in the city where
the hospital was, the city where his mother and father lived at the
time, or in Orlando? (Orlando is the only one of the three that would
be a recognizable city name to most readers of something like
Wikipedia.)
A circle with a diameter of 5 miles would include parts of all three.
Oak Park IL (population: 52,000)is a village, not a city, but let's
set aside that aspect. Unless one is a Frank Lloyd Wright or Ernest
Hemingway fan, Oak Park is not a city well-known outside of the
Chicago area.
And is readily confused with Oak Forest, Forest Park, and Park
Forest, and maybe other suburbs of Chicago.
And Oak Lawn, which is also in Cook County IL. It's about the same
size as Oak Park, but the residents are - on average - in a lower
income bracket.

Then there's Oak Forest also in Cook County IL, which is about half
the size of the other two.

There are eight different types of oak trees in the Chicago area. The
White Oak is the Illinois state tree.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2019-12-09 08:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
In many US places, a city is surrounded by incorporated suburbs. A
person born in a hospital in one city, but of parents who live in
different, but nearby, city. For example, one of my grandsons was
born in a hospital in one suburb of Orlando, but the family lived in a
different suburb of Orlando.
Should he become famous, would he be listed as born in the city where
the hospital was, the city where his mother and father lived at the
time, or in Orlando? (Orlando is the only one of the three that would
be a recognizable city name to most readers of something like
Wikipedia.)
And then there's the problem of someone moving those boundaries...just
think of all those people born in Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia...or the
"Society of People Born Off the Earth", whose births occurred in the
hospital whose site is now hundreds of feet in the air above San
Lorenzo, New Mexico....
Post by Tony Cooper
A circle with a diameter of 5 miles would include parts of all three.
Oak Park IL (population: 52,000)is a village, not a city, but let's
set aside that aspect. Unless one is a Frank Lloyd Wright or Ernest
Hemingway fan, Oak Park is not a city well-known outside of the
Chicago area.
It should be well-known if you liked the original version of "Adventures
in Babysitting"...Elisabeth Shue's first words from the stage of the
blues club (perhaps the best out-of-thin-air musical number ever staged
in a non-musical) are "My name is Chris Parker. I live in Oak Park.
That's a suburb."

....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-09 09:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
I have never regarded myself as being "from" the town where I was born.
In 1943 you had to be born where you could find a bed in a maternity
hospital, and I doubt whether I "lived" there for more than a few days.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-12-09 12:59:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 10:36:35 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
I have never regarded myself as being "from" the town where I was born.
In 1943 you had to be born where you could find a bed in a maternity
hospital, and I doubt whether I "lived" there for more than a few days.
Ditto, six years earlier.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-09 19:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 10:36:35 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
I have never regarded myself as being "from" the town where I was born.
In 1943 you had to be born where you could find a bed in a maternity
hospital, and I doubt whether I "lived" there for more than a few days.
Ditto, six years earlier.
But un-ditto six years later. I was born at home at no (financial) cost
to my parents, since the NHS was up and running.
--
Sam Plusnet
HVS
2019-12-09 14:18:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 10:36:35 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[  ]
It leads to an interesting question: Is someone always from the city
where that person was born?
I have never regarded myself as being "from" the town where I was born.
In 1943 you had to be born where you could find a bed in a
maternity
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
hospital, and I doubt whether I "lived" there for more than a few days.
My parents moved cities when I was 4; we travelled back pretty well
every year to visit the families, but I'd never say that I'm "from"
either.

When asked, I invariably say "I was born in Winnipeg, but grew up in
Ottawa".

Cheers, Harvey
Peter Moylan
2019-12-10 10:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
My parents moved cities when I was 4; we travelled back pretty well
every year to visit the families, but I'd never say that I'm "from"
either. When asked, I invariably say "I was born in Winnipeg, but
grew up in Ottawa".
I'm in a similar situation. We moved when I was 4, and didn't go back
because there was nobody to visit. (We did visit the place, while
passing through, when I was about 18.)

If asked where I'm from, I'm likely to say something like "I'm from
Seymour, but I was born in Hamilton". Despite some early memories, I
don't identify with the place where I lived for only a short time.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Katy Jennison
2019-12-10 14:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
My parents moved cities when I was 4; we travelled back pretty well
every year to visit the families, but I'd never say that I'm "from"
either. When asked, I invariably say "I was born in Winnipeg, but
grew up in Ottawa".
I'm in a similar situation. We moved when I was 4, and didn't go back
because there was nobody to visit. (We did visit the place, while
passing through, when I was about 18.)
If asked where I'm from, I'm likely to say something like "I'm from
Seymour, but I was born in Hamilton". Despite some early memories, I
don't identify with the place where I lived for only a short time.
Interesting. These days I almost never get asked where I'm from except
when I'm abroad, and I give an approximation to my present home
location*, rather than where I was born or brought up.

* "Near Oxford" or, if I'm in the US, "England".
--
Katy Jennison
Cheryl
2019-12-10 15:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
My parents moved cities when I was 4; we travelled back pretty well
every year to visit the families, but I'd never say that I'm "from"
either. When asked, I invariably say "I was born in Winnipeg, but
grew up in Ottawa".
I'm in a similar situation. We moved when I was 4, and didn't go back
because there was nobody to visit. (We did visit the place, while
passing through, when I was about 18.)
If asked where I'm from, I'm likely to say something like "I'm from
Seymour, but I was born in Hamilton". Despite some early memories, I
don't identify with the place where I lived for only a short time.
Interesting.  These days I almost never get asked where I'm from except
when I'm abroad, and I give an approximation to my present home
location*, rather than where I was born or brought up.
* "Near Oxford" or, if I'm in the US, "England".
It still happens here, although not all that frequently. Only the other
day I was asked if I was from St. John's. My standard reply is "Well,
I've lived here most of my life, but I grew up in Central (or, depending
on my mood and whether I think they'll know the name Buchans)." Some
people still like making connections using your home. I learned long ago
to never say to a local that I'm from St. John's because the next
question is inevitably something along the lines of "Did you go to
Prince of Wales Collegiate? My cousin Sam went there, I wonder if you
knew him?" If I'm outside the country, I say "Canada". If I'm in Canada
but outside the province, I say "Newfoundland". About the only time I
specify the place I was actually born and lived for a few months (in the
US) is when I'm filling out official forms that require it. I've never
said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and don't remember.
--
Cheryl
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-10 19:49:30 UTC
Permalink
On 10-Dec-19 15:23, Cheryl wrote:

snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Young
2019-12-10 21:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia in 1993,
and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her place of birth
determine her nationality?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Cheryl
2019-12-10 22:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia in 1993,
and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her place of birth
determine her nationality?
Peter.
Depending on the law in Ethiopia, she may have citizenship there too,
since she was born there.
--
Cheryl
Peter Young
2019-12-11 09:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia in 1993,
and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her place of birth
determine her nationality?
Peter.
Depending on the law in Ethiopia, she may have citizenship there too,
since she was born there.
Yes, she could have decided to be Ethiopian when she reached the age of
eighteen. When she married and Australian (soon to be her ex-husband) in
1993, and was applying for Australian residence and work permits, I had to
submit a lot of documents to prove that she was British. At the wedding
there was a lot of teasing, with people saying that if she had chosen to
be Ethiopian she could have had refugee status.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Tony Cooper
2019-12-10 22:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia in 1993,
and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her place of birth
determine her nationality?
It's just a missing "usually" in Cheryl's statement. In your
daughter's case, it was the nationality of the parents that made this
an exception.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-10 22:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia in 1993,
and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her place of birth
determine her nationality?
Just trying to simplify what we all know is a complex topic.
Place of birth is a significant factor in nationality, and in a large
proportion of cases it is the only factor considered.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-11 15:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
that require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so
briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia in 1993,
and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her place of birth
determine her nationality?
If she had been born in the United States of America, she would be a
US citizen, willy-nilly. Thus Cheryl is a US citizen, unless she performed
some formal procedure to give up that citizenship (if Canada didn't permit
dual citizenship, for instance).

(Can we say "willy-nilly" of Q, given its etymology?)

"AMENDMENT XIV

"Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.

"Section 1.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. ..."
CDB
2019-12-11 20:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born
and lived for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out
official forms that that require it. I've never said I was
from a place I lived in so briefly and don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most
important piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia
in 1993, and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her
place of birth determine her nationality?
If she had been born in the United States of America, she would be a
US citizen, willy-nilly. Thus Cheryl is a US citizen, unless she
performed some formal procedure to give up that citizenship (if
Canada didn't permit dual citizenship, for instance).
(Can we say "willy-nilly" of Q, given its etymology?)
My pronoun would work. Willey-nilley.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"AMENDMENT XIV
"Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
"Section 1.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject
to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the State wherein they reside. ..."
It's like being a Catholic.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-11 21:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Sam Plusnet
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born
and lived for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out
official forms that that require it. I've never said I was
from a place I lived in so briefly and don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most
important piece of data in determining nationality
Is it? My daughter from my first marriage was born in Addis Ababa,
Ethiopia. She was brought up in the UK and emigrated to Australia
in 1993, and has dual UK and Australian citizenship. How does her
place of birth determine her nationality?
If she had been born in the United States of America, she would be a
US citizen, willy-nilly. Thus Cheryl is a US citizen, unless she
performed some formal procedure to give up that citizenship (if
Canada didn't permit dual citizenship, for instance).
(Can we say "willy-nilly" of Q, given its etymology?)
My pronoun would work. Willey-nilley.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"AMENDMENT XIV
"Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
"Section 1.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject
to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the State wherein they reside. ..."
It's like being a Catholic.
That "...subject to the jurisdiction..." exempts the children born in
the US whose parent(s) are diplomats from other countries gaining
automatic citizenship.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-11 00:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Sure, as long as you're not counting the hundreds of millions of us
who were born in one place and have since moved and taken on the
nationality of another place.

bill
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-11 01:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Sure, as long as you're not counting the hundreds of millions of us
who were born in one place and have since moved and taken on the
nationality of another place.
Or those of us who were born in one place but whose parents were from
another place, to which they took us as soon as we were old enough to
travel.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Tony Cooper
2019-12-11 03:58:53 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 01:58:09 +0000, Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Sure, as long as you're not counting the hundreds of millions of us
who were born in one place and have since moved and taken on the
nationality of another place.
Or those of us who were born in one place but whose parents were from
another place, to which they took us as soon as we were old enough to
travel.
On a recent "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert" actress Saoirse Ronan
was a guest. Ms Ronan has a strong Irish accent. Her accent was - to
my ear - not the ROI accent that I've heard from others, so I looked
her up. I thought perhaps it was a Belfast accent because it seemed a
bit hard.

She was born in the Bronx, NYC of Irish parents. The family did move
back (presumably) to Dublin when she was 3 years-old, so the Irish
accent was earned.

Anyone seeing "born in the Bronx" in a reference to her would be quite
confused hearing her speak when meeting her for the first time.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tak To
2019-12-11 17:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Sure, as long as you're not counting the hundreds of millions of us
who were born in one place and have since moved and taken on the
nationality of another place.
Or those of us who were born in one place but whose parents were from
another place, to which they took us as soon as we were old enough to
travel.
FWIW, in Leftpondia, "nationality" is a rather vague term
whereas "citizenship" is recognized as having multiple sets of
precisely crafted qualification rules, each set pertaining
to a different jurisdiction.

/Jus soli/ is indeed the prevalent qualification principle for
citizenship worldwide, though never the only one applicable
in the respective jurisdictions.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-11 17:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
snip much
About the only time I specify the place I was actually born and lived
for a few months (in the US) is when I'm filling out official forms that
require it. I've never said I was from a place I lived in so briefly and
don't remember.
That's quite logical, and yet 'Place of Birth' is the most important
piece of data in determining nationality
Sure, as long as you're not counting the hundreds of millions of us
who were born in one place and have since moved and taken on the
nationality of another place.
Or those of us who were born in one place but whose parents were from
another place, to which they took us as soon as we were old enough to
travel.
FWIW, in Leftpondia, "nationality" is a rather vague term
whereas "citizenship" is recognized as having multiple sets of
precisely crafted qualification rules, each set pertaining
to a different jurisdiction.
/Jus soli/ is indeed the prevalent qualification principle for
citizenship worldwide, though never the only one applicable
in the respective jurisdictions.
Yes, but it's more complicated than I had thought before I looked it up
the other day.
--
athel
Mark Brader
2019-12-11 18:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
FWIW, in Leftpondia, "nationality" is a rather vague term
whereas "citizenship" is recognized as having multiple sets of
precisely crafted qualification rules...
In my Leftpondia, "nationality" is an exact synonym for "citizenship".
--
Mark Brader "How many pessimists end up by desiring
Toronto the things they fear, in order to prove
***@vex.net that they are right." -- Robert Mallet
Tony Cooper
2019-12-11 19:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tak To
FWIW, in Leftpondia, "nationality" is a rather vague term
whereas "citizenship" is recognized as having multiple sets of
precisely crafted qualification rules...
In my Leftpondia, "nationality" is an exact synonym for "citizenship".
My daughter-in-law was born in Russia and came to the US in her early
20s where she met, and later married, my son. In 2000 she became an
American citizen.

So you would say her nationality is American? She wouldn't.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-11 00:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
My parents moved cities when I was 4; we travelled back pretty well
every year to visit the families, but I'd never say that I'm "from"
either. When asked, I invariably say "I was born in Winnipeg, but
grew up in Ottawa".
I'm in a similar situation. We moved when I was 4, and didn't go back
because there was nobody to visit. (We did visit the place, while
passing through, when I was about 18.)
If asked where I'm from, I'm likely to say something like "I'm from
Seymour, but I was born in Hamilton". Despite some early memories, I
don't identify with the place where I lived for only a short time.
Interesting.  These days I almost never get asked where I'm from except
when I'm abroad, and I give an approximation to my present home
location*, rather than where I was born or brought up.
* "Near Oxford" or, if I'm in the US, "England".
Very different from my experience. In the town where I live, most
people think I'm from somewhere else, and as soon as I open my mouth I
remove all doubt, as the saying goes. So I get asked where I'm from.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-09 12:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In many US places, a city is surrounded by incorporated suburbs. A
person born in a hospital in one city, but of parents who live in
different, but nearby, city. For example, one of my grandsons was
born in a hospital in one suburb of Orlando, but the family lived in a
different suburb of Orlando.
Unlike in Australia, if they're "incorporated," then they're not
"suburbs." Chicago kept annexing surrounding bits of Cook County
and they are now neighborhoods, not suburbs.
Mark Brader
2019-12-06 19:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by a***@gmail.com
a) There were the early days with the original cast and then there were the
later days with the original cast and we are comparing now with the former
This has me shaking my head, but I suppose it makes some sort of sense
for some shows that have run for decades.
Shows don't need to run for decades to have changes to the regular cast --
either gaining or losing characters or, less frequently, recasting of the
same character.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I conducted a Usenet poll ... on this subject ...
***@vex.net | Laura is single. By a 2-1 margin." --Ken Perlow
charles
2019-12-07 13:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Snidely
Post by a***@gmail.com
a) There were the early days with the original cast and then there
were the later days with the original cast and we are comparing now
with the former
This has me shaking my head, but I suppose it makes some sort of sense
for some shows that have run for decades.
Shows don't need to run for decades to have changes to the regular cast --
either gaining or losing characters or, less frequently, recasting of the
same character.
they don't need to, but sometimes they do.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
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