Did Robert Johnson sell his soul to the devil?

[Joe Scott]

Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
lyrics here and start by tallying:

http://www.dylan61.se/michael%20taft,%20blues%20anthology.txt.WebConcordance/framconc.htm

For instance, as entered in this concordance, these words occur this
many times:

"love" 767
"please" 389
"money" 359
"train" 293
"worried" 201
"whiskey" 166
"dog" 151
"friend" 141
"shoes" 91
"mother" 88
"letter" 77
"sea" 76
"snake" 72
"understand" 68
"mistreat" 64
"yard" 57
"devil" 51
"partner" 41
"whistle" 36
"unkind" 21
"orchard" 20
"insurance" 17
"grandpa" 16
"mortgage" 9
"hoodoo" 5
"dove" 4
"turpentine" 4
"windowpane" 4
"crossroads" 3
"jellybean" 3

Why don't we hear more today about bluesmen and... yards? Bluesmen and
mothers? Bluesmen and jellybeans? Because that doesn't sell as
romantic myth the way, for some people, the association of "black" men
with devil worship (relative to e.g. the association of "white" '30s
entertainers with sin) feels true and/or exciting. Blues fans tend to
like the idea that they're progressives. Many will have us believe
it's not very cool, for instance, to talk a lot over and over, for
years, about Martin Luther King Jr. cheating on his wife or
plagiarizing in his doctoral dissertation, both of which evidence
shows he did...okay maybe it's not constructive but meanwhile it's
just fine to repeat what a few people said they heard or figured about
Robert Johnson and the Devil? Would-be progressives, is Bob Johnson
less deserving of basic fairness than Martin King?

Here's a representative example of the way the word "devil" was often
used in blues, in "Crooked Woman Blues" by Blind Boy Fuller: "She act
like an angel in the daytime, crooked as the Devil at night." Young
blues fans read about the Devil a lot. Old bluesmen sang about women a
lot.

Joseph Scott

[DianeE]

Post by Joe Scott
Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
http://www.dylan61.se/michael%20taft,%20blues%20anthology.txt.WebConcordance/framconc.htm
For instance, as entered in this concordance, these words occur this
"love" 767
"please" 389
"money" 359
"train" 293
"worried" 201
"whiskey" 166
"dog" 151
"friend" 141
"shoes" 91
"mother" 88
"letter" 77
"sea" 76
"snake" 72
"understand" 68
"mistreat" 64
"yard" 57
"devil" 51
"partner" 41
"whistle" 36
"unkind" 21
"orchard" 20
"insurance" 17
"grandpa" 16
"mortgage" 9
"hoodoo" 5
"dove" 4
"turpentine" 4
"windowpane" 4
"crossroads" 3
"jellybean" 3

-----------------
What about "Cadillac?"

DianeE

[Joe Scott]

Post by DianeE

Post by Joe Scott
Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
http://www.dylan61.se/michael%20taft,%20blues%20anthology.txt.WebConc...
For instance, as entered in this concordance, these words occur this
"love" 767
"please" 389
"money" 359
"train" 293
"worried" 201
"whiskey" 166
"dog" 151
"friend" 141
"shoes" 91
"mother" 88
"letter" 77
"sea" 76
"snake" 72
"understand" 68
"mistreat" 64
"yard" 57
"devil" 51
"partner" 41
"whistle" 36
"unkind" 21
"orchard" 20
"insurance" 17
"grandpa" 16
"mortgage" 9
"hoodoo" 5
"dove" 4
"turpentine" 4
"windowpane" 4
"crossroads" 3
"jellybean" 3

-----------------
What about "Cadillac?"
DianeE

"Cadillac" 21, "Ford" 25, "Packard" 4, "car" 30, "automobile" 12. Cleo
Gibson and Willie Baker were the only two in this concordance who
mentioned a Rolls, both in '29.

Joseph Scott

[Lyle Lofgren]

Post by Joe Scott

Post by DianeE

Post by Joe Scott
Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
http://www.dylan61.se/michael%20taft,%20blues%20anthology.txt.WebConc...
For instance, as entered in this concordance, these words occur this
"love" 767
"please" 389
"money" 359
"train" 293
"worried" 201
"whiskey" 166
"dog" 151
"friend" 141
"shoes" 91
"mother" 88
"letter" 77
"sea" 76
"snake" 72
"understand" 68
"mistreat" 64
"yard" 57
"devil" 51
"partner" 41
"whistle" 36
"unkind" 21
"orchard" 20
"insurance" 17
"grandpa" 16
"mortgage" 9
"hoodoo" 5
"dove" 4
"turpentine" 4
"windowpane" 4
"crossroads" 3
"jellybean" 3

-----------------
What about "Cadillac?"
DianeE

"Cadillac" 21, "Ford" 25, "Packard" 4, "car" 30, "automobile" 12. Cleo
Gibson and Willie Baker were the only two in this concordance who
mentioned a Rolls, both in '29.
Joseph Scott

One thing, though: the crossroads myth inspired the 1986 movie,
"Crossroads" (which I remember as a ridiculous attempt, although I
might have been in a bad mood the night I saw it), whereas, as far as
I know, "jellybean" has never inspired a movie.

Lyle

[Jim Colegrove]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:26:22 -0700 (PDT), Lyle Lofgren

Post by Lyle Lofgren

Post by Joe Scott

Post by DianeE

Post by Joe Scott
Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
http://www.dylan61.se/michael%20taft,%20blues%20anthology.txt.WebConc...
For instance, as entered in this concordance, these words occur this
"love" 767
"please" 389
"money" 359
"train" 293
"worried" 201
"whiskey" 166
"dog" 151
"friend" 141
"shoes" 91
"mother" 88
"letter" 77
"sea" 76
"snake" 72
"understand" 68
"mistreat" 64
"yard" 57
"devil" 51
"partner" 41
"whistle" 36
"unkind" 21
"orchard" 20
"insurance" 17
"grandpa" 16
"mortgage" 9
"hoodoo" 5
"dove" 4
"turpentine" 4
"windowpane" 4
"crossroads" 3
"jellybean" 3

-----------------
What about "Cadillac?"
DianeE

"Cadillac" 21, "Ford" 25, "Packard" 4, "car" 30, "automobile" 12. Cleo
Gibson and Willie Baker were the only two in this concordance who
mentioned a Rolls, both in '29.
Joseph Scott

One thing, though: the crossroads myth inspired the 1986 movie,
"Crossroads" (which I remember as a ridiculous attempt, although I
might have been in a bad mood the night I saw it), whereas, as far as
I know, "jellybean" has never inspired a movie.

Nope, you weren't in a bad mood that night.

Jim Colegrove
www.lostcountry.com

[Bob Roman]

Post by Joe Scott
Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
Why don't we hear more today about bluesmen and... yards? Bluesmen and
mothers? Bluesmen and jellybeans? Because that doesn't sell as
romantic myth the way

These raw numbers are interesting and I appreciate you putting them
up, but to draw any real sociological conclusions we would need to see
a similar tally for other genres.

For example, the raw count for "love" dwarfs that for "devil" on your
list 15 to 1. But what if it turns out that during the years of the
tally 90% of all references to the devil come from the blues and only
10% of all references to love come from the blues? That fact would
demonstrate that the blues had a disproportionate interest in the
devil, and the topic would be worthy of sociological study.

What I would do, if I had the data, is a chi-square analysis to
determine statistically which subjects are overly represented in each
genre.

--
BR

[Lyle Lofgren]

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Joe Scott
Anyone who might buy the idea that blues musicians sang about the
Devil or crossroads a lot can go to the huge concordance of old blues
Why don't we hear more today about bluesmen and... yards? Bluesmen and
mothers? Bluesmen and jellybeans? Because that doesn't sell as
romantic myth the way

These raw numbers are interesting and I appreciate you putting them
up, but to draw any real sociological conclusions we would need to see
a similar tally for other genres.
For example, the raw count for "love" dwarfs that for "devil" on your
list 15 to 1.  But what if it turns out that during the years of the
tally 90% of all references to the devil come from the blues and only
10% of all references to love come from the blues?  That fact would
demonstrate that the blues had a disproportionate interest in the
devil, and the topic would be worthy of sociological study.
What I would do, if I had the data, is a chi-square analysis to
determine statistically which subjects are overly represented in each
genre.
--
BR

I'm not sure how to apply sampling theory to this question. Leaving
aside the question of how to define genres (I defy anyone to do that),
we'd have a table like this, for "love" (all data, except blues, is
made up):

Blues: 767
Old-Time Appalachian: 35
Bluegrass: 50
Country-Western: 1,822

(etc.)

But since we don't have good numbers for the total number of any genre
(including all those that don't mention "love"), we can't express
these numbers as ratios. Maybe C&W really mentions love less often
than blues on a percentage basis?
If we knew that, the t-test, which checks for differences in mean
values, would be more interesting than the chi-squared test, which
looks for differences in variances. But, since we don't have data on
the sample size, none of the significance tests typically used in
sampling theory would be useful. Maybe we just have to take Joe's word
for it. I know I'm too old to undertake an investigation of this size.

Lyle

[Joe Scott]

Well, other genres is other genres, but if we just look at blues, and,
for instance, based on the evidence available to us we see that
"crossroads" was really about as commonly mentioned as "turpentine,"
"windowpane," and "jellybean" in old blues, and we notice in contrast
how often crossroads are mentioned in writing about blues in recent
decades, it helps us set our bullshit meter to approximately the
correct setting regarding the average blues piece we might comes
across today by someone who is ostensibly very knowledgeable about old
blues and certainly has listened to a lot of them (but is not
necessarily a non-romantic, as Elijah Wald e.g. succeeds in being).

Joseph Scott

[Bob Roman]

Post by Joe Scott
Well, other genres is other genres, but if we just look at blues, and,
for instance, based on the evidence available to us we see that
"crossroads" was really about as commonly mentioned as "turpentine,"
"windowpane," and "jellybean" in old blues, and we notice in contrast
how often crossroads are mentioned in writing about blues in recent
decades, it helps us set our bullshit meter to approximately the
correct setting regarding the average blues piece we might comes
across today by someone who is ostensibly very knowledgeable about old
blues and certainly has listened to a lot of them (but is not
necessarily a non-romantic, as Elijah Wald e.g. succeeds in being).

Raw counts have some meaning, but not a lot. In the tally you
referenced, the word "the" was counted 6,432 times and the words "a"
and "an" were counted only 4,469 times combined. Does that mean that
blues artists have an unusual attraction to definite rather than
indefinite articles? No, we can't say that. We can only say that if
we compare the usage of the words in the blues to the usage of the
words overall in our language.

Your observation about the use of the word "crossroads" now vs. then
is interesting, if accurate. But what would make it interesting, what
would make it useful, is the comparison -- the relative use of the
words then vs. now.

--
BR

[Joe Scott]

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Joe Scott
Well, other genres is other genres, but if we just look at blues, and,
for instance, based on the evidence available to us we see that
"crossroads" was really about as commonly mentioned as "turpentine,"
"windowpane," and "jellybean" in old blues, and we notice in contrast
how often crossroads are mentioned in writing about blues in recent
decades, it helps us set our bullshit meter to approximately the
correct setting regarding the average blues piece we might comes
across today by someone who is ostensibly very knowledgeable about old
blues and certainly has listened to a lot of them (but is not
necessarily a non-romantic, as Elijah Wald e.g. succeeds in being).

Raw counts have some meaning, but not a lot.

Depends.

 In the tally you

Post by Bob Roman
referenced, the word "the" was counted 6,432 times and the words "a"
and "an" were counted only 4,469 times combined.  Does that mean that
blues artists have an unusual attraction to definite rather than
indefinite articles?[...]

I haven't claimed in this thread that blues artists had an unusual
attraction to any particular words. I claim that blues writers and
readers of recent decades have had a biased attraction to certain
concepts, biased relative to how often blues musicians actually sang
about those concepts in the old days.

The association of blues with crossroads became well-known after
Robert Johnson became well-known to blues fans, which was basically in
the '60s.

Regarding what writers have written more when: google books advanced
search (which includes periodicals) by year range on

blues singer "the crossroads" vs. blues singer "the train"

1900-1949: 6 hits vs. 102 hits (with "the crossroads" 6%
as often as with "the train")
2000-2009: 469 hits vs. 777 hits (with "the crossroads"
60% as often as with "the train")

Joseph Scott

[Bob Roman]

Post by Joe Scott
I haven't claimed in this thread that blues artists had an unusual
attraction to any particular words. I claim that blues writers and
readers of recent decades have had a biased attraction to certain
concepts, biased relative to how often blues musicians actually sang
about those concepts in the old days.
The association of blues with crossroads became well-known after
Robert Johnson became well-known to blues fans, which was basically in
the '60s.

If that last statement is your hypothesis, you would not test it by
comparing the relative use of words within the genre (e.g., devil vs
train). That data has no context.

Suppose we find that bluesmen and country singers in this era referred
to trains at similar rates, but that bluesmen referred to the devil 20
times as often. From that data we would have to conclude that,
contrary to your hypothesis, the devil was in fact a significant theme
in the blues. Trains per se have nothing to do with it.

--
BR

[Lyle Lofgren]

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Joe Scott
I haven't claimed in this thread that blues artists had an unusual
attraction to any particular words. I claim that blues writers and
readers of recent decades have had a biased attraction to certain
concepts, biased relative to how often blues musicians actually sang
about those concepts in the old days.
The association of blues with crossroads became well-known after
Robert Johnson became well-known to blues fans, which was basically in
the '60s.

If that last statement is your hypothesis, you would not test it by
comparing the relative use of words within the genre (e.g., devil vs
train).  That data has no context.
Suppose we find that bluesmen and country singers in this era referred
to trains at similar rates, but that bluesmen referred to the devil 20
times as often.  From that data we would have to conclude that,
contrary to your hypothesis, the devil was in fact a significant theme
in the blues.  Trains per se have nothing to do with it.
--
BR

But within the blues genre, per the original data, bluesmen referred
to "trains" 7 times as often as "devil." That's gotta be significant,
no matter what the other (e.g. non-blues country) singers do.

Lyle

[Bob Roman]

Post by Lyle Lofgren

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Joe Scott
The association of blues with crossroads became well-known after
Robert Johnson became well-known to blues fans, which was basically in
the '60s.

If that last statement is your hypothesis, you would not test it by
comparing the relative use of words within the genre (e.g., devil vs
train).  That data has no context.
Suppose we find that bluesmen and country singers in this era referred
to trains at similar rates, but that bluesmen referred to the devil 20
times as often.  From that data we would have to conclude that,
contrary to your hypothesis, the devil was in fact a significant theme
in the blues.  Trains per se have nothing to do with it.

But within the blues genre, per the original data, bluesmen referred
to "trains" 7 times as often as "devil." That's gotta be significant,
no matter what the other (e.g. non-blues country) singers do.

It depends on the question. The word "I" is used 30 times as often as
"train." That difference has to be significant too, in purely
mathematical terms, but it's not a meaningful difference. We cannot
conclude from that fact alone, for example, that the blues is a
particularly self-centered music.

--
BR

[Lyle Lofgren]

Post by Lyle Lofgren

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Joe Scott
The association of blues with crossroads became well-known after
Robert Johnson became well-known to blues fans, which was basically in
the '60s.

If that last statement is your hypothesis, you would not test it by
comparing the relative use of words within the genre (e.g., devil vs
train).  That data has no context.
Suppose we find that bluesmen and country singers in this era referred
to trains at similar rates, but that bluesmen referred to the devil 20
times as often.  From that data we would have to conclude that,
contrary to your hypothesis, the devil was in fact a significant theme
in the blues.  Trains per se have nothing to do with it.

But within the blues genre, per the original data, bluesmen referred
to "trains" 7 times as often as "devil." That's gotta be significant,
no matter what the other (e.g. non-blues country) singers do.

It depends on the question.  The word "I" is used 30 times as often as
"train."  That difference has to be significant too, in purely
mathematical terms, but it's not a meaningful difference.  We cannot
conclude from that fact alone, for example, that the blues is a
particularly self-centered music.
--
BR

But some words carry a more portentious emotional load than others,
and it's not surprising that city commentators with an anthropological
bent would be more attracted to the "crossroads" symbol rather than
the "train" symbol. For a bluesman, the train, with its escape
imagery, might have a more potent meaning than crossroads -- all
you'll meet there is Satan, and if he only teaches you to play guitar
without teaching you how to make a living at it, it may not be worth
selling your soul for the lessons.

And counting word frequency in songs is similar to scraping the paint
off a painting and analyzing it to learn the secret of the artist's
talent. It's the pattern, not the raw material, that counts. Now, if
Satan teaches fabulous artistic patterns at the Crossroads -- that
might be worth my soul. As the blues character in "Oh, Brother, Where
Art Thou" says, "I wasn't using it, anyway."

Lyle

[Joe Scott]

On Aug 25, 1:45 pm, Lyle Lofgren <***@visi.com> wrote:
[...]crossroads -- all

you'll meet there is Satan[...]

Not to Bob Johnson's way of thinking, apparently:

take 1 of "Cross Road Blues":

I went to the crossroad, fell down on my knees
I went to the crossroad, fell down on my knees
Asked the Lord above "Have mercy, now save poor Bob, if you please"

Yeoo, standin' at the crossroad, tried to flag a ride
Ooo eeee, I tried to flag a ride
Didn't nobody seem to know me, babe, everybody pass me by

Standin' at the crossroad, baby, risin' sun goin' down
Standin' at the crossroad, baby, eee, eee, risin' sun goin' down
I believe to my soul, now, poor Bob is sinkin' down

You can run, you can run, tell my friend Willie Brown
You can run, you can run, tell my friend Willie Brown
That I got the crossroad blues this mornin', Lord, babe, I'm sinkin'
down

And I went to the crossroad, mama, I looked east and west
I went to the crossroad, baby, I looked east and west
Lord, I didn't have no sweet woman, ooh well, babe, in my distress

take 2:

I went to the crossroad, fell down on my knees
I went to the crossroad, fell down on my knees
Asked the Lord above "Have mercy, save poor Bob, if you please"

Mmmmm, standin' at the crossroad, I tried to flag a ride
Standin' at the crossroad, I tried to flag a ride
Didn't nobody seem to know me, everybody pass me by

Mmmm, the sun goin' down, boy, dark gon' catch me here
Oooo, oooeeee, boy, dark gon' catch me here
I haven't got no lovin' sweet woman that love and feel my care

You can run, you can run, tell my friend-boy Willie Brown
You can run, tell my friend-boy Willie Brown
Lord, that I'm standin' at the crossroad, babe, I believe I'm sinkin'
down

From the spiritual "Keep Me From Sinking Down": "O my Lord, keep me
from sinking down." Was that spiritual pro-Devil?

Joseph Scott

[Joe Scott]

"Grant me to know Thy will, oh Lord, and do it[...]" -- from "Prayer
At A Crossroad" in _Seeing Through_ by Ruth Gunther Winant, 1920.

"Whenever they came to a cross road or to a cross, they threw
themselves on the ground, crying 'Misericordia' three times; then
recited the Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria." -- "White Penitents, 1399"
entry, _The Historic Note-Book_, 1901.

Why haven't writers about blues been as eager to pursue the Bob-was-a-
Christian angle as the Bob-was-in-league-with-the-Devil angle? They're
condescending towards Bob and his peers is one possible reason, and it
doesn't sell as well is another.

Joseph Scott

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Joe Scott
"Grant me to know Thy will, oh Lord, and do it[...]" -- from "Prayer
At A Crossroad" in _Seeing Through_ by Ruth Gunther Winant, 1920.
"Whenever they came to a cross road or to a cross, they threw
themselves on the ground, crying 'Misericordia' three times; then
recited the Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria." -- "White Penitents, 1399"
entry, _The Historic Note-Book_, 1901.
Why haven't writers about blues been as eager to pursue the Bob-was-a-
Christian angle as the Bob-was-in-league-with-the-Devil angle? They're
condescending towards Bob and his peers is one possible reason, and it
doesn't sell as well is another.

When you couple "Crossroad Blues" with "Me and the Devil," and
"Hellhound on My Trail," the demonic angle becomes more apparent.
Also, Johnson supposedly claimed to have sold his soul on several
occasions.

In light of the legend, "Crossroad Blues" can be seen as a lamentation
on his having to pay the devil his due -- and a desperate plea to the
Lord to rescue him from his fate.

[Len Blanks]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Joe Scott
"Grant me to know Thy will, oh Lord, and do it[...]" -- from "Prayer
At A Crossroad" in _Seeing Through_ by Ruth Gunther Winant, 1920.
"Whenever they came to a cross road or to a cross, they threw
themselves on the ground, crying 'Misericordia' three times; then
recited the Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria." -- "White Penitents, 1399"
entry, _The Historic Note-Book_, 1901.
Why haven't writers about blues been as eager to pursue the Bob-was-a-
Christian angle as the Bob-was-in-league-with-the-Devil angle? They're
condescending towards Bob and his peers is one possible reason, and it
doesn't sell as well is another.

When you couple "Crossroad Blues" with "Me and the Devil," and
"Hellhound on My Trail," the demonic angle becomes more apparent.
Also, Johnson supposedly claimed to have sold his soul on several
occasions.

To different devils? Clever Bob.

[Jim Colegrove]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 00:41:46 -0500, Len Blanks

Post by Len Blanks

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Joe Scott
"Grant me to know Thy will, oh Lord, and do it[...]" -- from "Prayer
At A Crossroad" in _Seeing Through_ by Ruth Gunther Winant, 1920.
"Whenever they came to a cross road or to a cross, they threw
themselves on the ground, crying 'Misericordia' three times; then
recited the Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria." -- "White Penitents, 1399"
entry, _The Historic Note-Book_, 1901.
Why haven't writers about blues been as eager to pursue the Bob-was-a-
Christian angle as the Bob-was-in-league-with-the-Devil angle? They're
condescending towards Bob and his peers is one possible reason, and it
doesn't sell as well is another.

When you couple "Crossroad Blues" with "Me and the Devil," and
"Hellhound on My Trail," the demonic angle becomes more apparent.
Also, Johnson supposedly claimed to have sold his soul on several
occasions.

To different devils? Clever Bob.

One was Angra Mainyu, one was Hades, one was Belial.


Jim Colegrove
www.lostcountry.com

[Bob Roman]

Post by Jim Colegrove
One was Angra Mainyu

Didn't she write "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"?

--
BR

[Jim Colegrove]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Bob Roman

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Jim Colegrove
One was Angra Mainyu

Didn't she write "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"?

It was either that one or "Wino Bird Caged Sing-Sing."


Jim Colegrove
www.lostcountry.com

[Lyle Lofgren]

Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Bob Roman

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Jim Colegrove
One was Angra Mainyu

Didn't she write "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"?

It was either that one or "Wino Bird Caged Sing-Sing."
Jim Colegrovewww.lostcountry.com

I'm not trying to sell my soul to the devil, but he seems to be
susceptible to a trade, mine for his. I want to trade even-up, but he
insists his is worth more than mine, and wants me to pay him as well.
What's a fair trade, considering mine is 75 years old, in almost mint
condition, and his is a true antique, although badly scarred from
encounters with fundamentalist Christians?

signed,

Perplexed

[Len Blanks]

Post by Lyle Lofgren

Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Bob Roman

Post by Bob Roman

Post by Jim Colegrove
One was Angra Mainyu

Didn't she write "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"?

It was either that one or "Wino Bird Caged Sing-Sing."
Jim Colegrovewww.lostcountry.com

I'm not trying to sell my soul to the devil, but he seems to be
susceptible to a trade, mine for his. I want to trade even-up, but he
insists his is worth more than mine, and wants me to pay him as well.
What's a fair trade, considering mine is 75 years old, in almost mint
condition, and his is a true antique, although badly scarred from
encounters with fundamentalist Christians?
signed,
Perplexed

Tommy Johnson: I had to be up at that there crossroads last midnight,
to sell my soul to the devil.

Ulysses Everett McGill: Well, ain't it a small world, spiritually
speaking. Pete and Delmar just been baptized
and saved. I guess I'm the only one that remains
unaffiliated.

[Lyle Lofgren]

Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 00:41:46 -0500, Len Blanks

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Joe Scott
"Grant me to know Thy will, oh Lord, and do it[...]" -- from "Prayer
At A Crossroad" in _Seeing Through_ by Ruth Gunther Winant, 1920.
"Whenever they came to a cross road or to a cross, they threw
themselves on the ground, crying 'Misericordia' three times; then
recited the Lord's Prayer and Ave Maria." -- "White Penitents, 1399"
entry, _The Historic Note-Book_, 1901.
Why haven't writers about blues been as eager to pursue the Bob-was-a-
Christian angle as the Bob-was-in-league-with-the-Devil angle? They're
condescending towards Bob and his peers is one possible reason, and it
doesn't sell as well is another.

When you couple "Crossroad Blues" with "Me and the Devil," and
"Hellhound on My Trail," the demonic angle becomes more apparent.
Also, Johnson supposedly claimed to have sold his soul on several
occasions.

To different devils?  Clever Bob.

One was Angra Mainyu, one was Hades, one was Belial.
Jim Colegrovewww.lostcountry.com

And, as I recall, in the movie it was Legba, who emigrated from Haiti
for the occasion. It was a pretty crowded crossroad.

Lyle

[Joe Scott]

Hi Bob and Lyle, the fact that writers were mentioning crossroads in
connection with blues very roughly 60% as often as trains in
connection with blues during 2000-2009, but back during 1900-1949,
were mentioning crossroads in connection with blues only very roughly
6% as often as trains in connection with blues, that's a significant
change, a change that could have various possible causes, but in any
case a change that has happened. Which group of writers was closer
with those proportions to the proportions those old blues lyrics
themselves used? The 1900-1949 group, by far.

Joseph Scott

[Bob Roman]

Post by Joe Scott
Hi Bob and Lyle, the fact that writers were mentioning crossroads in
connection with blues very roughly 60% as often as trains in
connection with blues during 2000-2009, but back during 1900-1949,
were mentioning crossroads in connection with blues only very roughly
6% as often as trains in connection with blues, that's a significant
change, a change that could have various possible causes, but in any
case a change that has happened. Which group of writers was closer
with those proportions to the proportions those old blues lyrics
themselves used? The 1900-1949 group, by far.

Joe, where is your data regarding that change? As I said before, I
agree that data showing such a change would support your argument.
But I do not see that data in your link.

That said, even if the devil/crossroads theme is a bigger issue now
than it was at the time (and I agree that it probably is) that fact
does not imply that it was not important at all at the time. There
was always an original kernel there that has since been exploited.
The theme was not made up whole cloth by modern romantics.

--
BR

[Jim Colegrove]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:37:33 -0700 (PDT), Joe Scott

Post by Joe Scott
Well, other genres is other genres, but if we just look at blues, and,
for instance, based on the evidence available to us we see that
"crossroads" was really about as commonly mentioned as "turpentine,"
"windowpane," and "jellybean" in old blues, and we notice in contrast
how often crossroads are mentioned in writing about blues in recent
decades, it helps us set our bullshit meter to approximately the
correct setting regarding the average blues piece we might comes
across today by someone who is ostensibly very knowledgeable about old
blues and certainly has listened to a lot of them (but is not
necessarily a non-romantic, as Elijah Wald e.g. succeeds in being).
Joseph Scott

Crossing and Un-crossing. Dr. Cross can fix it or un-fix it.

Jim Colegrove
www.lostcountry.com