On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:41:39 -0700 (PDT), Alex Milman
Post by Alex MilmanPost by The Horny GoatOn Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:27:10 -0700 (PDT), Alex Milman
Post by Alex MilmanPost by The Horny GoatPost by Alex MilmanOn Sunday, October 22, 2017 SU in whatever capacity) had
Post by Rich RostromThere were comic attacks on Nazi Germany, even during
the war - notably _The Great Dictator_.
Well The Great Dictator was started in 1935 and not completed until
April 1940. Chaplin said it was the only one of his movies he
regretted making as Hitler was a LOT less funny in early 1940 (e.g.
after the fall of Warsaw) than he was in 1935.
Actually, he was not "funny" at all in 1935 and obviously, for anybody who bothered to pay attention, after Kristallnacht (1938).
I know that and you know that but at that point he had yet not taken
the Rhineland, Austria, the Sudentenland, Bohemia, Slovakia, Memel all
before the declaration of war on Poland.
I would have to look up 1935 to verify whether work on the Great
Dictator was done before or after the Nuremberg laws which I'm pretty
sure came in in.1935. At that point he had passed the Enabling Act
that got him his artificial majority in the Reichstag and sent a few
Communists and Socialists to Dachau which wasn't even "on the radar"
of the average German. Niemoller's famous quote - "First they came for
the Communists..." wasn't until after the war but very well sums up
the early Nazi period.
For what it's worth there were several Nazi acts sometimes cited as
"Nuremberg" laws. The earliest was in 1933, the latest in Sept/Oct
1935. I don't really think any of the regulars here need a summary on
what they were about. Ditto Kristalnacht which was 1938.
Post by Alex MilmanIt is not that. Nazi program never was a secret (ditto for the Soviets) and their propaganda was in a full swing even before they came to power.
It was no secret that Nazis hated Jews. What was not well known until
after the war was the degree of the industrialization of genocide. FDR
as early as 1943 knew something was going on in the Oswiecim
(Auschwitz) area - he did not understand that poison gas and
crematoria were part of it. I'm sure he believed Jews were impirsoned
and brutally forced to work. That was considered 'normal behaviour'
for tyrannical regimes at the time - mass murder (as opposed to
working people to death) was not expected.
Post by Alex MilmanIt was just a mental unwillingness of the "West" to start paying attention until its collective nose had been pushed into a pile of manure which was not possible to ignore anymore. AFAIK, there was plenty of noise prior to the Olympic games in Berlin (1936) so it is not like the whole thing was a complete grey area.
Again - 1936 (August to be specific) Don't get me wrong - I am NOT
disputing murderous acts were done by the Nazi regime - I am trying to
be specific on when particular outrages took place.
Post by Alex MilmanAs far as The Great Dictator was involved the issue (IMO) was not a precise date of its release but a plain fact that most of the movie is just a set of the old cliché used in the earlier "Little Tramp" comedies where the bad guys are just silly and not really dangerous. How can you consider a pathetic nincompoop being beaten by a girl as a serious threat to anybody? Adenoid Hynkel is just a silly fool who has only moustache similar to Hitler. In "To be or not to be" the Nazi are morons but SCARY morons (well, you can argue that in 1942 there was much more of a general knowledge).
One presumes this is why Chaplin disliked the character of Adenoid
Hinkel so much - he wasn't nearly dark enough for Chaplin's liking by
1937-38.
Post by Alex MilmanPost by The Horny GoatOf course at that point the John Birch Society was considered credible
in its political opinions. Nixon routinely invoked them at that time
(though he disavowed them later)
Well, they may end up being overly zealous but the ideas of anti-communism and limited government are not the bad ones.
The Birchers were very much part of the "Who Lost China?" debate which
is not at all surprising given who John Birch was (who from what we
know of the views of the missionary board that sent him out probably
wouldn't have approved of "his" society) e.g. an American missionary
killed in China by Chinese Communists.
Post by Alex MilmanI do not agree that Ike was "the tool of the Communists" but the part "a smart politician, entirely without principles and hungry for glory" seems to be not too far off (at least his "Crusade in Europe" somewhat supports such an impression). Personally, I don't see an absence of the principles as something definitely bad for a politician, especially one who wants things to be done. :-)
Which very much matched the United States of the 1950s - and very much
begs the question "If not Ike who?" McArthur eliminated himself based
on how he ended his military career, possibly Marshal though despite
his aministrative skill not really presidential material, Patton was
dea so who besides Ike? (And the United States nearly always elects
former generals as president 10-20 years after a major war - the
exception being after WW1 where Hoover who had spent a lot of time in
Europe doing reconstruction was elected instead. McCain would have
been a good parallel had he been elected.
Post by Alex MilmanFor a spy to be successful a "supporting base" (people having access to the valuable information or to the people making important decisions) is necessary. And such a base can consist of the people bought or blackmailed into a cooperation and/or the people who are willingly cooperating based upon their convictions. The last category is cheaper and easier to handle. The obvious downside is that potentially these people could be a bunch of idiots (not necessarily in their personal lives) and handling an idiot involves problems of its own.
I agree that most of the "pinks" had been absolutely useless as far as spying itself was involved but they had been helpful in creating an environment which was generally sympathetic to the enemy (which the SU was at that time).
Absolutely no question the USSR was the main American enemy from the
50s through 80s - no one took China that seriously in that era despite
1952-53 in Korea. Certainly a lot of Americans were surprised by how
well the Vietnamese did against them in 1979.
On the other hand even if Beijing had been able to drive to Hanoi
never mind all the way to Saigon (Ho Chi Minh city) how would it have
served their interests? The "Nine-Dash Line" wasn't really part of
Chinese policy in the late 70s.
Post by Alex MilmanIt is somewhat similar to the situation with the pre-revolutionary Russian intelligencia: individual may not approve of the terrorism but he would never denounce a known terrorist to the authorities or even cooperate with the authorities on any issue (unless HE was robbed :-)).
Do you really think a meaningful parallel can be drawn between
60s/70s/80s America and pre1914 Russia?
Post by Alex MilmanPost by The Horny GoatI smile when I think about what MacCarthy would have said about "red
states" and "blue states" and that he would have been firmly in the
'red' camp despite how horrified he'd be about association with
anything involving the color red.
Well, this is really ironic.
Can you imagine a time travelling MacCarthy hearing Dubya proclaiming
he was happy to be representing a "red state" - and how he would
doubly melt down once he saw "George W Bush (GOP)" on a television? (I
have no doubt JM would understand color TV given he had send plenty of
black and white)
Post by Alex MilmanActually, the Soviets had somewhat similar "color problem" with the Nazi: both had red flags (came handy during M-R Pact but not before or after) so for a while the Nazi had been "assigned" a brown color.
Which is doubly ironic in view of the Red Army uniform. (Admittedly a
completely different shade of brown from the SA uniorm)
As for the color red you are likely to be invoking the Imperial
Japanese flag next! (grin).
Well less than 2 months before the new season of the Man in the High
Castle (ducking and running for cover - loved the book, the show not
so much though there are some good scenes like the Nazi American
congress which was ripped off from the original in Berlin)