The cost of food

[jJohn Klausner]

Ran across this in my blog-wandering. I remember when I was in college
and two other girls and myself rented an off campus apartment. We took
turns grocery shopping and cooking on a weekly basis, jointly agreeing
on a menu of sorts, and putting money in a pot for the cost. Hard to
believe our food budget at the time was based on $1 per person per day.
Even after I got married and for a fairly long time with children,
that was the basic budgeting dollar amount I estimated I needed. Even
now, I'd say it's about $2-3 per person per day. Maybe I'm way off -
I'll have to keep a little closer track and see, but it's a little
harder to do that now, as I do some bulk shopping, repackage and freeze.
My shopping habits are much more irregular than they used to be, and
we don't eat the same way, either. It looks to me, though, like the
families pictured eat a great deal more junk food and ready to eat
pre-packaged food than we do. Still, I found the dollar amounts fairly
staggering.

http://tinyurl.com/e2rh9

SueK

[Janet Baraclough]

Post by jJohn Klausner
Ran across this in my blog-wandering.

It looks to me, though, like the

Post by jJohn Klausner
families pictured eat a great deal more junk food and ready to eat
pre-packaged food than we do. Still, I found the dollar amounts fairly
staggering.

Just goes to show why blogs are not reliable sources of true facts.
Here's just one example;

According to the blogger, his photographed "average family" of 2
parents 2 kids in Beijing spends 1233 yuan per week on food, which is
over 63,000 yuan per year.

The average ANNUAL WAGE in Beijing, is around 26,000 yuan. (2003
official figure) .An average family in Beijing with two earners
certainly could not spend 63,000 yuan PA on food. The Chinese have very
little processed, packaged junk food available to buy, so it's not
credible to see that family with a stack of packets and tins. Nor would
an average family of that generation have two children.

Janet

[Farm1]

Post by Janet Baraclough
Just goes to show why blogs are not reliable sources of true facts.
Here's just one example;
According to the blogger, his photographed "average family" of 2
parents 2 kids in Beijing spends 1233 yuan per week on food, which is
over 63,000 yuan per year.
The average ANNUAL WAGE in Beijing, is around 26,000 yuan. (2003
official figure) .An average family in Beijing with two earners
certainly could not spend 63,000 yuan PA on food. The Chinese have very
little processed, packaged junk food available to buy, so it's not
credible to see that family with a stack of packets and tins. Nor would
an average family of that generation have two children.

And did you notice the packaged meat on polystyrene trays? There 10 packs
of it! That is a hell of a lot of meat and a very untraditionla way for
Chinese to buy their food. It's way more meat than we would eat in our
house let alone a family supposedly located in Beijing.

[Farm1]

Post by Farm1
And did you notice the packaged meat on polystyrene trays?

And di you notice some of the other stuff on that site about the "war on
Terror"?

This is one very paranoid person. The stuff about Australia was most
interesting. They need to know a bit about the local politics and how our
Prime Minister manipulates and controls before making some of the
assumptions that they have about the terrorisit action here.

[unknown]

There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5
years ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

[Elmo]

Post by unknown
There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5
years ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

You have to be careful with the raw amount spent at grocery stores.
We all go to the grocery store and complain about how much food costs
but don't forget the laundry supplies, paper products, and other stuff
that most of us buy on our shopping trips.

And while the material at that web site is a bit overstated, the point
that it makes is difficult to avoid. We spend more for packaging than
for the food in it. We spend more for the labor of having someone else
do the preparation than for the food itself. I often wonder how many of
the households that need 2 incomes to make ends meet are spending more on
paying someone else to do things for them than they make from the 2nd
income. Factor in commuting, childcare, etc. and there's a heap of expenses
that could be avoided.

[unknown]

Post by Elmo

Post by unknown
There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5
years ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

You have to be careful with the raw amount spent at grocery stores.
We all go to the grocery store and complain about how much food costs
but don't forget the laundry supplies, paper products, and other stuff
that most of us buy on our shopping trips.
And while the material at that web site is a bit overstated, the point
that it makes is difficult to avoid. We spend more for packaging than
for the food in it. We spend more for the labor of having someone else
do the preparation than for the food itself. I often wonder how many of
the households that need 2 incomes to make ends meet are spending more on
paying someone else to do things for them than they make from the 2nd
income. Factor in commuting, childcare, etc. and there's a heap of expenses
that could be avoided.

True: the costs at the grocery store was all inclusive of laundry
supplies etc.
We were looking at what we spent in July 1999 at our two local Stores
and what we spent this July at the same places.
July 1999 we spent 583.27. This past July 1,117.08 which is not quite
100% increase. However, we didn't buy as much: especially Steak which is
now in the 9.00 to 11.00 per pound range. She does most of the shopping.
If I go I spend a hell of a lot more and get thrashed for the wrong
stuff and too mcuh stuff.
We are experiencing difficulties even though we make what I always
thought, before now, a lot of money.

[ms_peacock]

Post by unknown
There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5 years
ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

I can't imagine spending a thousand a month on food for four people. I
spend around three hundred a month on "groceries" but that includes all
cleaning and laundry supplies, paper products, cat food, etc. I suspect our
actual food is around a third to half that amount. And we only eat beans if
we want them and rarely eat potatoes. We have steaks and roasts on a
regular basis. Not everyday but regularly at least.

I can't imagine that even with another two people in the house that the
grocery budget would go up by more than another two hundred.

At a thousand a month for four people we would be having steaks of some kind
at least three times a week.

Ms P

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by unknown
There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5
years ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

Try looking at your grocery cart instead. You will find that less than
half of what you are spending for groceries is actually food. That's
why they call it a supermarket. You buy toothpaste, toilet paper,
medicine, magazines, books, utensils, and a raft of other things, and
roll them into your food budget.

50 lbs of potatoes costs $10. 25 lbs. of beans, rice or onions cost
about the same. 50 lbs. of flour is $16. Seasonal vegetables, like
acorn squash, are 10/$1. Pumpkins left over from halloween are free.
4 ounces of meat per person per day adds $30 per month for a family of
4. Green leafy vegetables are the most expensive thing you have to
buy. A basic survival menu for a family of 4, that meets all dietary
needs, would cost you about $150 a month, about $1.25 per person per
day. You would have to learn to quit throwing out enough food to feed
2 people.

A family of 4 can eat pretty well on $5 a day, or about $600 a month.
A food budget like that would allow prime rib dinners and a lot of
booze.

[Dave Hinz]

On 29 Nov 2005 13:40:16 -0800, Larry Caldwell <***@teleport.com> wrote:
(snip great analysis)

Post by Larry Caldwell
A family of 4 can eat pretty well on $5 a day, or about $600 a month.

How long are the months where you live, Larry?

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by Dave Hinz

Post by Larry Caldwell
A family of 4 can eat pretty well on $5 a day, or about $600 a month.

How long are the months where you live, Larry?

$5 apiece, Dave. We're talking steak here.

[m***@jach.hawaii.edu]

Post by Larry Caldwell

Post by unknown
There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5
years ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

[...]

this depends on where you live ...

Post by Larry Caldwell
50 lbs of potatoes costs $10. 25 lbs. of beans, rice or onions cost

if you're very lucky you can get those for $20 here, more like $30, I'd
guess, I'd never buy 50lb potatoes at a time, they'd go bad at my
house (but I don't buy rice in less than 20lb bags, and for those
I refuse to pay more than $5.-)

Post by Larry Caldwell
about the same. 50 lbs. of flour is $16. Seasonal vegetables, like

beans I have no idea, but I couldn't store 25lb of onions (just like
the
50 lb of potatoes), and they'd cost more like $30 (again) here, if I
can
get them for that. I think I could get 50lb of flour for $16, but that
would
again be a storage problem (well, maybe not more than rice, come to
think of it).

Post by Larry Caldwell
acorn squash, are 10/$1. Pumpkins left over from halloween are free.

yeah right. Vegetables under $1/lb are few and far between, maybe
cabbage,
and leftover pumpkins? The sores would give them to the food bank or to
piggeries before they'd give them to customers.

Post by Larry Caldwell
4 ounces of meat per person per day adds $30 per month for a family of
4.

You get meat for $1/lb? Once in a great while chicken (with bones)
might be that inexpensive, frozen only. Ground round runs twice that
if you're lucky.

Post by Larry Caldwell
Green leafy vegetables are the most expensive thing you have to
buy.

Now those, if hard pressed, I could probably find by the road side,
just like bananas and (this time of year) avocados, and a lot of fruit.

Your diet is short of vitamin C ...

Larry, I have a vague idea where you live, no idea where tightwad
lives, but these things are regionally somewhat different ...

Maren
Tropical seeds - Job's Tears Jewelry - Plants & Lilikoi
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/~maren/palms_etc/

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by m***@jach.hawaii.edu

Post by Larry Caldwell
Green leafy vegetables are the most expensive thing
you have to buy.

Now those, if hard pressed, I could probably find by
the road side,
just like bananas and (this time of year) avocados,
and a lot of fruit.
Your diet is short of vitamin C ...

Both squash and potatoes are ample sources of vitamin C.

Post by m***@jach.hawaii.edu
Larry, I have a vague idea where you live, no idea
where tightwad
lives, but these things are regionally somewhat
different ...

Pick your poison, Maren. Since you live in Hawaiya, maybe your thing
is pig and poi. Wherever you live, there are local foods that will
sustain life, unless you live in antarctica. Jan has to pay an arm and
a leg for canned foods in Alaska, but moose, salmon and crab are cheap.

The USA has had a policy of cheap food for decades. Once upon a time,
food absorbed 30% or more of a family budget. Today, if you take
restaurant meals out of the pot, food is only 10% of the average family
budget. It has been just one more way the government cooks the
inflation books, since most imported food comes from Mexico, and the
peso is pegged to the dollar. You just happen to live a long way from
Mexico, so you have to get your food from Paradise instead.

[m***@jach.hawaii.edu]

Post by Larry Caldwell
Pick your poison, Maren. Since you live in Hawaiya, maybe your thing
is pig and poi.

not exactly, but it does contain at least as much rice as potatoes <g>
(BTW: we do have locally grown potatoes here too)

Post by Larry Caldwell
Wherever you live, there are local foods that will
sustain life, unless you live in antarctica. Jan has to pay an arm and
a leg for canned foods in Alaska, but moose, salmon and crab are cheap.

Oh, I'm aware of that (well, the latter, you'd expect canned foods to
be
as expensive here as there, but some really aren't expensive here
at all, tomato sauce is one).

There's more to it than the availability of locally grown food (rice
isn't grown here either): demand. Foods that are in high demand,
like rice, are cheap here too.

Aloha,

Maren

[Andy Hill]

Post by unknown
There are four in our Household.
It requires about a thousand a month. We don't eat fancy eiither.
Beans and taters, occassionaly hamburger and chicken.
We have had too cut back on quality and tyoe of foods since 2000.
The cost that we experience is somewhere over 200% of what it was 5
years ago.
That's just looking at our checking account statments.

You've got to be kidding. I've got a family of 4, and our entire "grocery"
bill for 2005 is a smidge over $6700. That's with most of the sundries you
get in addition to food. And I could count on one hand the number of times we
cook from scratch in a given month.

[dogsnus]

Post by jJohn Klausner
I'll have to keep a little closer track and see, but it's a little
harder to do that now, as I do some bulk shopping, repackage and freeze.
My shopping habits are much more irregular than they used to be, and
we don't eat the same way, either. It looks to me, though, like the
families pictured eat a great deal more junk food and ready to eat
pre-packaged food than we do. Still, I found the dollar amounts fairly
staggering.

I didn't go to the blog but the cost of food these days was recently
the subject of a discussion I've had. The subject was more about how
most people these days don't really cook in the USA, but rely more on
take out and when they do "cook", it's a lot of pre-packaged things such
as those bags of salad fixings already cut up. We cook here and I honestly
can't remember the last time we had fast food.
It seems as if the majority of people I work with spend a lot of time
complaining about not making enough money and the same people invariably
go out for lunch each day and buy a meal at some fast food place or
from a restaurant. I find it pretty amazing that they'd not figure out
they're paying around (conservatively) $100.00/month just for that one
meal out of the month. For the same amount of money that buys a lot
of eggs, whole chickens, flour, sugar, beans, rice, hamburger, turkey
(that runs what, .34 or so cents a pound?) etc. to do as
you (and I) do by repackaging and freezing bulk amounts.
I also seem to be in the minority these days as a home canner.

Terri

[jJohn Klausner]

Post by dogsnus

Post by jJohn Klausner
I'll have to keep a little closer track and see, but it's a little
harder to do that now, as I do some bulk shopping, repackage and freeze.
My shopping habits are much more irregular than they used to be, and
we don't eat the same way, either. It looks to me, though, like the
families pictured eat a great deal more junk food and ready to eat
pre-packaged food than we do. Still, I found the dollar amounts fairly
staggering.

I didn't go to the blog but the cost of food these days was recently
the subject of a discussion I've had. The subject was more about how
most people these days don't really cook in the USA, but rely more on
take out and when they do "cook", it's a lot of pre-packaged things such
as those bags of salad fixings already cut up. We cook here and I honestly
can't remember the last time we had fast food.
It seems as if the majority of people I work with spend a lot of time
complaining about not making enough money and the same people invariably
go out for lunch each day and buy a meal at some fast food place or
from a restaurant. I find it pretty amazing that they'd not figure out
they're paying around (conservatively) $100.00/month just for that one
meal out of the month. For the same amount of money that buys a lot
of eggs, whole chickens, flour, sugar, beans, rice, hamburger, turkey
(that runs what, .34 or so cents a pound?) etc. to do as
you (and I) do by repackaging and freezing bulk amounts.
I also seem to be in the minority these days as a home canner.
Terri

Generally agreed. In one particular shopping area, for example, there
was a single restaurant which never seemed well patronized. It changed
hands 3 times in the past 20 years or so, each time changing the type of
food it offered. It also stood vacant for some periods of time. About
3-4 years ago, the shopping center underwent some kind of changes
(ownership? who knows!), tore down the restaurant and put in a row of
shops which then ended up being - TA DA! - all various sorts of
eateries. One honest to goodness restaurant - open relatively short
hours - and the rest basically what I consider junk food. They seem to
have constant patronage. On the other side of the shopping center,
another area that was formerly a Warehouse shop(rented vcr tapes etc),
is now a Greek restaurant, an ice cream place, a pizza shop and a wine
tasting place that sometimes has live bands, according to its window
fliers. I can hardly believe it when I look around - as I go to the
grocery store that "anchors" the area. We don't eat out very often
either - once a month would probably be stretching it. Then you go into
the grocery stores - the canned vegetable/fruit sections have shrunk to
about 20 ft of shelf space. The basic staples would probably take up
about 1/3 of the entire floor area, if that much. Prices on basics
aren't that high, it seems, except for meat. Tightwad mentioned $9-12
for steak - guess I'm more of a "tightwad" than s/he is - it's cheaper
here than wherever s/he is, and we still only buy it maybe half a dozen
times a year. I'll post some prices of meats when the usual fliers come
in - today's mail and Thursday's.
I used to do some canning, but don't any more. Still have the
equipment, but not inclination or the storage space, and to be honest,
I'm not sure I'd save that much on those particular foods that I'd be
likely to can.
And yeah....whatever happened to "packing lunch"?? The upshot of it is,
I think, different eating/cooking habits. I agree with you - people
don't seem to know how to cook any more - and this in spite of "the food
channel"! You'd think cooking would be bigger than ever, given the
exposure to "how to cook"! but it doesn't seem to be so. Maybe cooking
is limited to entertaining? so...who entertains any more !
Times when I feel _really_ old!
SueK

[m***@jach.hawaii.edu]

Sue,

I'm one of the people who still pack lunch.
But I'm also (have become recently, especially this time of year,
but also in summer) one of the people who buy takeout food more than
once a week (make that more like about 3-5 times/week).
There are times when I don't make it home until well after 8 p.m.,
that's after leaving at 7:30 in the morning, 6 days per week. Full
time job + self-employment runs that way. Yes, it probably would
be _cheaper_ to go home and cook, sell the land, give up trying to
farm, but doggoneit, I enjoy it (and never mind how much the land
went up in value since we bought it, and we wouldn't have bought
it if I wasn't trying to do something with it).
I know how to cook, I like to cook, but I'm quite often too
tired to cook, and when I get back near home, also too hungry
to cook (i.e. wait until the food is done).

I live in an area where unemployment runs about 2% and there
are 'help wanted' signs everywhere. What I have the problem with
is people complaining about not having money but spending time
hanging out doing nothing (productive). Work an extra 2-4 hours/day
and there is the $20 for the take-out meal, even in a minimum wage
(or slightly above) job. (I know the answer, not yours, but the
answer of the complainers: "but that's not fun").

Maren
(this is part of my lunch break, eating a salad in front of the
computer)
Tropical seeds - Job's Tears Jewelry - Plants & Lilikoi
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/~maren/palms_etc/

Post by jJohn Klausner
And yeah....whatever happened to "packing lunch"?? The upshot of it is,
I think, different eating/cooking habits. I agree with you - people
don't seem to know how to cook any more - and this in spite of "the food
channel"! You'd think cooking would be bigger than ever, given the
exposure to "how to cook"! but it doesn't seem to be so. Maybe cooking
is limited to entertaining? so...who entertains any more !
Times when I feel _really_ old!
SueK

[jJohn Klausner]

Post by m***@jach.hawaii.edu
Sue,
I'm one of the people who still pack lunch.
But I'm also (have become recently, especially this time of year,
but also in summer) one of the people who buy takeout food more than
once a week (make that more like about 3-5 times/week).
There are times when I don't make it home until well after 8 p.m.,
that's after leaving at 7:30 in the morning, 6 days per week. Full
time job + self-employment runs that way. Yes, it probably would
be _cheaper_ to go home and cook, sell the land, give up trying to
farm, but doggoneit, I enjoy it (and never mind how much the land
went up in value since we bought it, and we wouldn't have bought
it if I wasn't trying to do something with it).
I know how to cook, I like to cook, but I'm quite often too
tired to cook, and when I get back near home, also too hungry
to cook (i.e. wait until the food is done).
I live in an area where unemployment runs about 2% and there
are 'help wanted' signs everywhere. What I have the problem with
is people complaining about not having money but spending time
hanging out doing nothing (productive). Work an extra 2-4 hours/day
and there is the $20 for the take-out meal, even in a minimum wage
(or slightly above) job. (I know the answer, not yours, but the
answer of the complainers: "but that's not fun").
Maren
(this is part of my lunch break, eating a salad in front of the
computer)

Well, we all make choices! I'll be making a pick-up run today and will
probably stop at Jack in the Box for a Sourdough Jack...darn things are
habit forming! I don't know how many calories they have and I don't
_want_ to know! I have them about once a month - maybe. With french
fries and a drink, that's about $6. I'll feel guilty, but not for long!
As for the long day problem - I can understand that...especially if
you're a lone person(it sounds like you are). There are ways around it,
of course, but then you have to add "pot walloping" in addition to
cooking time and a body _does_ need some down time. You can probably do
most of the cooking on the weekends, but then there are still those dang
dishes! Once a week dishwashing is probably _not_ a good idea!

SueK

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by jJohn Klausner
As for the long day problem - I can understand that...especially if
you're a lone person(it sounds like you are). There are ways around it,
of course, but then you have to add "pot walloping" in addition to
cooking time and a body _does_ need some down time. You can probably do
most of the cooking on the weekends, but then there are still those dang
dishes! Once a week dishwashing is probably _not_ a good idea!

My wife and I deal with a busy schedule by freezing our own TV dinners,
sort of. We cook in quantity on weekends and freeze the food in small
containers that will easily reheat in a microwave. Dish washing is
handled by Kenmore. We bought a good automatic dishwasher with no
center post. Dirty dishes just go into the dishwasher until it is
full, then we run it. Dinner during the week is just a matter of
grabbing something out of the freezer and putting it in the microwave.


We try to cook things like casseroles with lots of veggies, so the
meals are reasonably well balanced. Most of the time we have a
vegetable salad of some kind in the refrigerator, sprinkled with lemon
juice so it won't brown out too quickly.

Breakfast has been instant oatmeal and a handful of fresh fruit or
berries. You can make instant oatmeal by boiling water in the
microwave first, then adding the oatmeal and stirring. You can do the
same thing with Cream of Wheat (farina), though I like to use milk
instead of water. No pans, just one bowl and a spoon to wash. Oatmeal
is great for reducing cholesterol and keeping you from getting bound
up, both serious considerations for us members of the older set. :)

[Farm1]

As for the long day problem - (snip) There are ways around it,
of course, but then you have to add "pot walloping" in addition to
cooking time and a body _does_ need some down time. You can probably do
most of the cooking on the weekends, but then there are still those dang
dishes

I must admit that I'm suprised at the comment (not made by you Sue) about
buying kitchen equipment. When I was young and starting out I got my
kitchen basics from Charity shops. None of it looked good but it was ultra
cheap and it worked just as well till I could afford better. My electric
Fry Pan is still a charity one as by the time I thought I should replace it,
the ones available to buy were made of cheaper, shoddier more light weight
material and I didn't liek them. One friend has gone through about 3
electric fry pans in the same time as my ancient more sturdily built one has
been constatnly plugging along.

My daughter did exactly the same thign when she went off to university. We
kept her very poor at Uni. and she recognised that it was cheaper to cook
her own food that to buy food from take aways (that's "take out" food if in
the US).

Do you have slow cookers/crock pots in the US?

When I was at my busiest with lots of work responsibilities, offspring at
the knees, study and lots of overnight travel for work I used a slow cooker
extensively. I found that it took me no extra time to prepare the
ingredients in the morning as I shepherded the family, showered, got ready
for work, found things for other family members before gatting us all out
the door with our packed lunches. It sat on the bench quietly cooking for
10-12 hours and we came home to a nutritious meal at night and we freezed
what was left over for night when I wasn't there or didn't want to cook.

The reason why it took no extra time was that I realised that I had wasted
time on my hand as I waited for others to be ready. I took in those days
about 5-10 minutes from bed to being ready to get out the door. Husbands
and Offspring aren't like that in this house. With the half to
threequaretrs of an hour it too for all of us to be ready, I had time to
chop and throw into the slow cooker.

A single MacDonalds meal in this country is about $A6.50. For the cost of
enough of these to feed the family I could feed the family for at least 3
evening meals and I know that Himself would be happy which he certainly
isn't if he has to eat the sort of quality that is available as a take away
(take out) for that sort of price. Any really good take away (take out)
food that an adult would choose to eat is much more expensive than
MacDonalds.

[Dean Hoffman]

In article

Post by Farm1
My daughter did exactly the same thign when she went off to university. We
kept her very poor at Uni. and she recognised that it was cheaper to cook
her own food that to buy food from take aways (that's "take out" food if in
the US).

The "kept her very poor" part was probably the best part of her
education.

Dean

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[Farm1]

Post by Dean Hoffman

Post by Farm1
My daughter did exactly the same thign when she went off to university.

We

Post by Dean Hoffman

Post by Farm1
kept her very poor at Uni. and she recognised that it was cheaper to cook
her own food that to buy food from take aways (that's "take out" food if in
the US).

The "kept her very poor" part was probably the best part of her
education.

You betcha!

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by jJohn Klausner
I used to do some canning, but don't any more. Still have the
equipment, but not inclination or the storage space, and to be honest,
I'm not sure I'd save that much on those particular foods that I'd be
likely to can.

I still do jellies. My wife found a squeezo attachment for the
KitchenAid a few years back. All you have to do is feed the fruit into
the meat grinder and it spits out pulp and juice. There is nothing in
the world that tastes as good as home made blackberry jellies. Logan
and Marion berries are local favorites.

Other than that, I freeze a lot of food. I have a large tuna casserole
and two giant lasagnas in the freezer right now, along with gallons of
soup, ham and beans, and a couple bushels worth of gravenstein apple
sauce.

Last month they had a special on ham shank portions for $0.49/lb. I
roasted the ham, halfway boned it, and boiled the leftovers up for
stock. Then I added and onion and some macaroni noodles and used the
ham stock to make noodles. Then I added cheddar cheese sauce, and made
it into hamaroini and cheese. I filled 6 pint containers, and had a
meal, on $2.50 worth of cheese, a can of cheese soup, a big bag of
macaroni and a bone. 30 minutes in the microwave on simmer and I have
a meal.

Post by jJohn Klausner
And yeah....whatever happened to "packing lunch"?? The upshot of it is,
I think, different eating/cooking habits. I agree with you - people
don't seem to know how to cook any more - and this in spite of "the food
channel"! You'd think cooking would be bigger than ever, given the
exposure to "how to cook"! but it doesn't seem to be so. Maybe cooking
is limited to entertaining? so...who entertains any more !
Times when I feel _really_ old!

I cooked a feast for 7 people for Thanksgiving, and everybody stayed 2
days. That was 42 meals. It cost me $116 in groceries, including an
18 lb. turkey, stuffing, turkey gravy, squash garnished with brown
sugar and butter, steamed broccoli, honey glazed carrots, home made
bread, fresh cranberry and orange compote, and two marion berry pies
with premium French vanilla topping. Breakfasts were sausage or bacon
and eggs, with a choice of pancakes or home fried potatoes. I boned
about 8 lbs. of leftover meat off the turkey, rendered the bones, and
made turkey vegetable soup with pearl barley for lunch the next day,
and a sweet and sour stir fry over rice for dinner, using up some
turkey, all the leftover vegetables and cranberry sauce. Cranberries
make great sweet and sour, by the way.

What can I say? I like to cook. I fed them with a sumptious feast
until they staggered, for about $1 a meal, and I'm still eating
leftover turkey.

[jJohn Klausner]

Post by Larry Caldwell

Post by jJohn Klausner
I used to do some canning, but don't any more. Still have the
equipment, but not inclination or the storage space, and to be honest,
I'm not sure I'd save that much on those particular foods that I'd be
likely to can.

I still do jellies. My wife found a squeezo attachment for the
KitchenAid a few years back. All you have to do is feed the fruit into
the meat grinder and it spits out pulp and juice. There is nothing in
the world that tastes as good as home made blackberry jellies. Logan
and Marion berries are local favorites.
Other than that, I freeze a lot of food. I have a large tuna casserole
and two giant lasagnas in the freezer right now, along with gallons of
soup, ham and beans, and a couple bushels worth of gravenstein apple
sauce.
Last month they had a special on ham shank portions for $0.49/lb. I
roasted the ham, halfway boned it, and boiled the leftovers up for
stock. Then I added and onion and some macaroni noodles and used the
ham stock to make noodles. Then I added cheddar cheese sauce, and made
it into hamaroini and cheese. I filled 6 pint containers, and had a
meal, on $2.50 worth of cheese, a can of cheese soup, a big bag of
macaroni and a bone. 30 minutes in the microwave on simmer and I have
a meal.
I cooked a feast for 7 people for Thanksgiving, and everybody stayed 2
days. That was 42 meals. It cost me $116 in groceries, including an
18 lb. turkey, stuffing, turkey gravy, squash garnished with brown
sugar and butter, steamed broccoli, honey glazed carrots, home made
bread, fresh cranberry and orange compote, and two marion berry pies
with premium French vanilla topping. Breakfasts were sausage or bacon
and eggs, with a choice of pancakes or home fried potatoes. I boned
about 8 lbs. of leftover meat off the turkey, rendered the bones, and
made turkey vegetable soup with pearl barley for lunch the next day,
and a sweet and sour stir fry over rice for dinner, using up some
turkey, all the leftover vegetables and cranberry sauce. Cranberries
make great sweet and sour, by the way.
What can I say? I like to cook. I fed them with a sumptious feast
until they staggered, for about $1 a meal, and I'm still eating
leftover turkey.

Sounds yummy. Last day on the turkey at our house is always curry.
When the curry is served, the turkey is gone.
I've turned over Thanksgiving to the offspring. Time they started their
own traditions. I've always had the traditional New England dinner with
mashed potatoes, squash (butternut, mashed with butter, brown sugar and
a bit of nutmeg), rutabagas, stuffing, gravy, cranberry sauce, with
pumpkin and mincemeat pies afterwards. DIL doesn't "do" pies, so I
still bring pumpkin pie. She couldn't make gravy, but figured out how
this year. She also pitches whatever is left of the turkey, so I told
her to pitch into a plastic bag, we bring it home and have turkey soup.
We make it up as broth, chill or freeze it in different containers,
and then add the usual veggies to different batches so we can have
turkey soup over the next week. Hubby cleans off the carcass better
than she does, so we also had enough for one meal, plus little bits that
the dog enjoyed(lots of cartilage stuff). She makes mashed sweet
potatoes instead of squash and makes her own stuffing version.
This year was a bit of a first - had calls from two sons the night
before Thanksgiving with questions on how to make pie crust...somehow
that wasn't a phonecall I ever envisioned!
SueK

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by jJohn Klausner
She also pitches whatever is left of the turkey, so I told
her to pitch into a plastic bag, we bring it home and have turkey soup.
We make it up as broth, chill or freeze it in different containers,
and then add the usual veggies to different batches so we can have
turkey soup over the next week. Hubby cleans off the carcass better
than she does, so we also had enough for one meal, plus little bits that
the dog enjoyed(lots of cartilage stuff).

I do the same. The turkey bones, skin, drippings, and whatever go into
a big stock pot with about a gallon of water. Simmer on low over
night, run through a colander to get the lumps out, and chill outside
until the fat congeals. Skimming the fat off the top reveals a gallon
of turkey jello that makes a rich soup base. I still have 2 quarts of
the stuff in the refrigerator. I'll probably use it to flavor dog
food, but I won't throw it out. That may seem pretty weird to some
people, particularly since the (18 lb) turkey was free with a $100
grocery purchase. Gotta love those holiday loss leaders.

I have learned my lesson about freezing the stuff though, after
excavating some 3-year-old turkey stock from the bottom of the freezer.
Oh well, the dogs loved it.

[Bill]

"dogsnus" wrote in message

...The subject was more about how most people these days don't
really cook in the USA, but rely more on take out and when they
do "cook", it's a lot of pre-packaged things such as those bags of
salad fixings already cut up...

I know many people who do that and are also having financial difficulties!

It seems so simple to me. Just ask yourself; what is the price per pound I
am paying for my food? And then ask; what is the least I can pay per pound
for food?

And the really important thing which people do *not* get... Is that they
have no idea why they do not have enough money left over to pay their rent
or mortgage payment.

So to me this is simple, just "cut back" on spending on other things! Duh!

So instead of cable TV with all the whistles and bells, get basic or no TV.

Instead of having pizza delivered and paying $25, buy a chicken on sale for
69 cents a pound and pay maybe $3.00 for the chicken. And when chicken is on
sale, buy 10 and keep them in the freezer.

But they don't think of that. These people will instead go to McDonalds
(drive-thru only). And they have the option of ordering from the $1 menu,
but they will order from the more expensive menu instead, then get drinks
for $1.50 (I can get a whole bottle for 69 cents!), etc. Then dinner costs
them $20 or so for the family.

So add up $3 per meal for a month (30 days) = $90
Or $20 per meal for a month (30 days) = $600

Well, there's that rent or mortgage money!

This is simple! Why can't these people understand this?

[Goedjn]

Post by Bill
So add up $3 per meal for a month (30 days) = $90
Or $20 per meal for a month (30 days) = $600
Well, there's that rent or mortgage money!
This is simple! Why can't these people understand this?

Well, for what it's worth, if you've been living a take-out
existance, it actually costs MORE to prepare your own food,
until you've accumulated all the necessary equipment and
supplies. Bulk purchasing means that NEXT month, and all
the months after are cheaper, not that THIS month is cheaper.

And the habits required take a while to burn in.

[Moe]

Post by Goedjn

Post by Bill
So add up $3 per meal for a month (30 days) = $90
Or $20 per meal for a month (30 days) = $600
Well, there's that rent or mortgage money!
This is simple! Why can't these people understand this?

Well, for what it's worth, if you've been living a take-out
existance, it actually costs MORE to prepare your own food,
until you've accumulated all the necessary equipment and
supplies. Bulk purchasing means that NEXT month, and all
the months after are cheaper, not that THIS month is cheaper.
And the habits required take a while to burn in.

All I know is the pull dated meat now costs what the fresh stuff did a
year ago, and cans of greenbeans and corn that used to be 3 for a dollar
are now 41 cents. 10lb bags of frozen chicken at the sav-a-lot went
from 4.90 a bag to 5.40 . But the business channel reports there is
little inflation, excluding food and energy. Tony's frozen pizzas are
still 2.25 Beer varies with quality, between 11 and 18 bucks a case.

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by Goedjn
Well, for what it's worth, if you've been living a take-out
existance, it actually costs MORE to prepare your own food,
until you've accumulated all the necessary equipment and
supplies. Bulk purchasing means that NEXT month, and all
the months after are cheaper, not that THIS month is cheaper.

I was thinking about this thread this evening while I was making dinner.
You are on to something, but I don't think it is a matter of equipment
or bulk purchasing.

Just about everything we eat requires some processing to make it safe to
eat and digestible. Plant matter has to be ground, boiled, fermented or
baked to make it chewable and digestible. In some cases, popular foods
are quite poisonous in their native state. You have to tear the leaves
off of rhubarb, shell and roast cashews, and you don't even want to know
what raw cassava (tapioca) will do to your digestive tract. The Staff
of Life, bread, requires a grain to be ground and fermented, then baked.
If you want to to be really digestible, then you toast it.

The human race practices a huge amount of food technology. Some of it
is thousands of years old, and only transmitted by word of mouth. I
knew how to make a reflector oven with some saplings and a hatchet by
the time I was 10 years old. I imagine your average city dweller
doesn't even know it's possible. Camp cooking is something you have to
learn from pioneers, mountain men or Indians, and their cultural
descendents.

One of my buddies in college was Mexican. One term we were really
broke, so we ate refried beans and tortillas for 3 months so we could
afford the beer to go with. We had a hot plate, a skillet and a pot to
cook in. It was almost 40 years ago, and things were cheaper then, but
we spent $10 a month for food. I remember chicken wings were 9 cents a
pound, so once in a while we would have arroz con pollo. It was humble,
but it was hot and filling. This was before food stamps, or even
surplus foods. A month's worth of food stamps would have been
incredible wealth by comparison, but we never went hungry.

We knew how to take raw food and make it edible. A decade later I
encountered Joy of Cooking. I read it cover to cover, and was on my way
to a lifetime of gourmet meals. Those gals knew how to start with a
live chicken and end up with a feast.

Post by Goedjn
And the habits required take a while to burn in.

The knowledge takes a while to learn. You have to know something is
possible before you try.

Several years ago, I was watching an entertainment show on TV. One of
the Baywatch Babes was describing how domestic she was, making a home
cooked meal for her boyfriend. When she got to opening the box of
potato flakes, I started looking for Rod Serling to step around the
curtain.

[jJohn Klausner]

Larry Caldwell wrote:
snip some interesting history..

Post by Larry Caldwell
We knew how to take raw food and make it edible. A decade later I
encountered Joy of Cooking. I read it cover to cover, and was on my way
to a lifetime of gourmet meals. Those gals knew how to start with a
live chicken and end up with a feast.

My mother's family was "well to do", and they always had a housekeeper.
She went to college, and worked for several years as a teacher before
she married my father. My Dad was in one of 3 National Guard units that
were drafted into regular service for WWII, and they were assigned to
Wash.DC. Mom had to learn to cook for the first time in her life at
about 30 years of age and with two kids. Joy of Cooking was her
salvation. "Joy" has gone through a number of editions with changes
made - some not for the better, imo - but Mom gave me a copy when I got
married, and I've given each of my kids one when they moved out on their
own. Well, actually, one of my sons _didn't_ get one (don't remember
why) and he nagged me to death until I gave him one last year for
Christmas. He said it was obvious that he was the only child I didn't
love since I hadn't given him his copy of Joy of Cooking. Sigh. I
found him a used copy - same version as mine. The newer version is more
modern, very calorie conscious, and simply not the same, imo. I
understand that Rombauer's son is in the process of re-editing a version
to attempt to include much of the original material that was deleted,
while keeping much of the health conscious material that was included.
It will be interesting to see what it looks like when it comes out.

My Mom never mastered deep frying, pancakes and gravy. I don't deep
fry, but absolutely cannot comprehend how someone "can't" make pancakes
or gravy. She said she could never make them without lumps. I don't
understand. Actually, I think it became a way of giving the gravy
making chore to my Dad, who made excellent gravy, and we just always
went out for Sunday breakfasts if we wanted pancakes. She wasn't so
dumb! So....maybe I _do_ understand!
SueK

Post by Larry Caldwell

Post by Goedjn
And the habits required take a while to burn in.

The knowledge takes a while to learn. You have to know something is
possible before you try.
Several years ago, I was watching an entertainment show on TV. One of
the Baywatch Babes was describing how domestic she was, making a home
cooked meal for her boyfriend. When she got to opening the box of
potato flakes, I started looking for Rod Serling to step around the
curtain.

[r***@yahoo.com]

no it dosn't......


" Well, for what it's worth, if you've
been living a take-out existance, it
actually costs MORE to prepare your
own food "

[Dean Hoffman]

Post by jJohn Klausner
Ran across this in my blog-wandering. I remember when I was in college
and two other girls and myself rented an off campus apartment. We took
turns grocery shopping and cooking on a weekly basis, jointly agreeing
on a menu of sorts, and putting money in a pot for the cost. Hard to
believe our food budget at the time was based on $1 per person per day.
Even after I got married and for a fairly long time with children,
that was the basic budgeting dollar amount I estimated I needed. Even
now, I'd say it's about $2-3 per person per day. Maybe I'm way off -
I'll have to keep a little closer track and see, but it's a little
harder to do that now, as I do some bulk shopping, repackage and freeze.
My shopping habits are much more irregular than they used to be, and
we don't eat the same way, either. It looks to me, though, like the
families pictured eat a great deal more junk food and ready to eat
pre-packaged food than we do. Still, I found the dollar amounts fairly
staggering.
http://tinyurl.com/e2rh9
SueK

There is some information here on the difference between consumer
prices and the farm value.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodPriceSpreads/spreads/table1.htm



Dean

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[Larry Caldwell]

Post by Dean Hoffman
There is some information here on the difference between
consumer prices and the farm value.
http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodPriceSpreads/spreads/table1.htm

Good site. However, the farm prices are evidently seasonal. I know I
can buy a 50 lb. bag of potatoes for $3.80 when the crop comes in,
about the $0.66/10 lb. price on the list, but that price only holds
good until they go into storage. If the farmer has to dig them out of
the warehouse, the price goes up. Apples only cost money if someone
else picks them for you. The local farm stand closed after
Thanksgiving, but there are still tote boxes full of winter squash
sitting in front of the stand, free for all takers. That's probably 2
tons of food that the farmer would rather give away than have it go to
waste.

BTW, brined and roasted squash seeds are a treat.

[Bill]

Well my friends did it again!

They ordered pizza and paid $25 for it delivered Sunday, then I talked to
them Wednesday and they told me they didn't have any money and only had some
hamburger in the fridge!

I on the other hand made a big kettle of lima beans and ham and cooked it on
my woodstove (for maybe $10 including ham). This should last me two weeks. I
said I had plenty and offered some to my friend, but he said he hated lima
beans and ham...

[dogsnus]

Post by Bill
Well my friends did it again!
They ordered pizza and paid $25 for it delivered Sunday, then I talked
to them Wednesday and they told me they didn't have any money and only
had some hamburger in the fridge!

Uh huh. That's the point I was making about the correlation between those
who eat out and those who seem to always complain about being broke where
I work.
This thread has shown a couple of reasons that it might_ be
difficult for some to cook but as a rule of thumb, I think the fast food
attitude is the more prevelant one. I adore pizza, and love it cold the
next day for breakfast but I remember times in the past when I simply
could not afford it so I learned how to make my own pizza.

I like Larry's words on this best:
"We knew how to take raw food and make it edible."
It's a fundamental skill that has either been lost or it's just become to
easy for people to ignore in favor of convenience.

Rarely have I ever met anyone too truly poor to buy food to eat. I have
seen it occasionally but being down here has shown me many things such
as how the Acadians lived off the land thus creating famous regional
dishes that people still enjoy to this day. There is no reason for
anyone in southern Louisiana to go hungry if they're willing to work
at it a bit. It's far too easy of a climate to grow fruit and vegetables,
and the wildlife is abundant such as crab, shrimp, oysters, alligator,
fish...the list is endless.
What I still can't fathom is here's a region of folks famed for some of
the best food in the world and yet, they still go out and purchase fast
food. I donut geddit.

Here's a recipe for my chicken and sausage gumbo taking that same $25.00
your neighbor spent for one meal applying the principle of Larry's about
processing raw food. This is a recipe that Emeril uses in his restaurants.
*I make my own chicken broth but if one was inclined to use canned, I see
no reason they can't. I put the broth into quart glass containers and
freeze it for later use. The only ingredient that may be difficult to get
due to regionality is the andouille sausage but any smoked sausage can be
used.
1/4 cup of vegetable oil
1/4 cup of flour

1 1/2 C chopped onion
1 1/2 C chopped celery
1 cup chopped bell peppers
1 lb. smoked andouille or kielbasa sausage cut crosswise into 1/2 inch
slices 1 lb. chicken meat boneless cut into 1 inch cubes
1 teaspoon salt *optional
1/4 teasp. cayenne pepper
3 bay leaves (can be picked off trees down here)
6 cups water
Make up about a teaspoon of the following combined spices and use this as
well: paprika
cayenne
black pepper
garlic powder
onion powder
oregano
dried thyme
salt


2 tablespoons chopped parsely
1 tablespoon file powder (ground sassafras leaves used for thickening,
sometimes okra is used in it's place.)
These last two ingredients are used when the dish is served.

Make a roux which is equal parts flour and oil, and stir over medium
heat constantly until it's dark brown, the color of milk chocolate.
Put the onion,celery and bell peppers in for about 5 mins. until they're
wilted.
Combine all the rest of the ingredients except for parsely and file
powder into a big pot and simmer for about 2 hours. Skim off the fat
as it rises**
Remove the bay leaves and serve over rice in big bowls.
Good with fresh bread or corn bread for sopping up juice.

** I take a wad of paper towels after it's done and the heat is shut
off and lay it over the surface to get as much oil as possible out of
the gumbo.
This makes enough food for the two of us for about 3-4 days if I
take some for lunch too, about a week or so if I don't. I can guarantee
the ingredients don't work out to $25.00.
If a person has to initially buy the spices it may run more of course
for the first time purchase but so little is used it pays for itself.
High protein, filling, real food with little to no preservatives
or sodium and incredibly delicious.

Terri

[Farm1]

Post by dogsnus
1 tablespoon file powder (ground sassafras leaves used for thickening,

Whoa there Terri!

Be careful what you advise! Here we have lots a differnet varieties of a
tree which we call sassafras but I'd be very surprised if any of these trees
were the same as something yuo call sassafras. Do you know the botanic
name?

[Jim Elbrecht]

Post by Farm1

Post by dogsnus
1 tablespoon file powder (ground sassafras leaves used for thickening,

Whoa there Terri!
Be careful what you advise! Here we have lots a differnet varieties of a
tree which we call sassafras but I'd be very surprised if any of these trees
were the same as something yuo call sassafras. Do you know the botanic
name?

Not Terri, but;
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/s/sassaf20.html

Sassafras officinale

BTW- Where is 'here' - and what is the botanical name of the plants
you call Sassafras?

Jim

[dogsnus]

Post by Jim Elbrecht

Post by dogsnus
1 tablespoon file powder (ground sassafras leaves used for thickening,

Here we have lots a differnet varieties of

Post by Jim Elbrecht

a tree which we call sassafras but I'd be very surprised if any of these
trees were the same as something yuo call sassafras.

Too true.

Do you know the

Post by Jim Elbrecht

botanic name?

No, I surely don't. It's the one in a jar in the local market!
My bottle just says "ground sassafras leaves", etc. and has no botanical
name on it. google...
Here we go:
http://www.apinchof.com/filepow1103.htm
sassafras albidum
And I'll be darned, I learned something else about it just now:
"Both the bark and the roots were long used to flavor root beer, giving it
that familiar taste and aroma."

Post by Jim Elbrecht
BTW- Where is 'here' - and what is the botanical name of the plants
you call Sassafras?

If you mean me "here"is S. Louisiana about 50 miles north of New Orleans.
File powder in the stores is as common as canned or fresh okra, not the
case in other states I've lived in such as Oregon, Washington, California,
Idaho and Wyoming.
Fran is in Australia where the plants can kill her along with all her pet
"garden" snakes.
Heh!

Terri

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

Post by dogsnus

Post by Jim Elbrecht
BTW- Where is 'here' - and what is the botanical name of the plants
you call Sassafras?

If you mean me "here"is S. Louisiana about 50 miles north of New Orleans.

Nope- I meant Fran.

Post by dogsnus
File powder in the stores is as common as canned or fresh okra, not the
case in other states I've lived in such as Oregon, Washington, California,
Idaho and Wyoming.

I'm in upstate NY & I haven't been able to find it. [which does make
it just a little bit harder to find than canned okra -- and I don't
remember ever seeing fresh okra up here<g>] I use frozen and try
to remember what okra really tastes like.

I did find a good patch of Sassafras, though & used the leaves for
File & cut a bunch of twigs for tea.

Post by dogsnus
Fran is in Australia where the plants can kill her along with all her pet
"garden" snakes.
Heh!

I thought Sassafras was a N. American & Chinese tree. I see on
Wikipedia that there is a 'Sassafras, Australia' named for shrubs
that grow there-- but they only describe the Sassafras we know.
[interesting that most of the sites on web describe Sassafras Albidum,
but the one I posted used Officinale, which is the name I'm familiar
with from old herbal books.]

Also note that it is probably a good idea to observe moderation with
Sassafras usage. The safrole which gives it flaver is a supposed
carcinigen.

Jim

[dogsnus]

Post by Jim Elbrecht
I'm in upstate NY & I haven't been able to find it.

You might have to order it direct from Zatrain's.
[which does make

Post by Jim Elbrecht
it just a little bit harder to find than canned okra -- and I don't
remember ever seeing fresh okra up here<g>] I use frozen and try
to remember what okra really tastes like.

You should have seen my try to find a can of it in Idaho! I ended up
having to go into Boise, 50 miles away.

Post by Jim Elbrecht
Also note that it is probably a good idea to observe moderation with
Sassafras usage. The safrole which gives it flaver is a supposed
carcinigen.

Shirley you aren't suggesting I go easy on my Barq's rootbeer? Heh.
I'd drink A&W as I like it better but Barq's is king of rootbeers
here as this is where it originated.

Terri

[Farm1]

Post by dogsnus
Fran is in Australia where the plants can kill her along with all her pet
"garden" snakes.

At one time I was doing some research on snakes and found out that a few
American snake collectors will pay big bucks to have one or more of my local
snake varieties in their collection They are a popular item for fauna
smugglers to try to get out of the country because they can be sold for very
high prices.

Truly astounds me that someone would want one of these nasties up close and
personal.

[Farm1]

Post by Jim Elbrecht

Post by Farm1

Post by dogsnus
1 tablespoon file powder (ground sassafras leaves used for thickening,

Whoa there Terri!
Be careful what you advise! Here we have lots a differnet varieties of a
tree which we call sassafras but I'd be very surprised if any of these trees
were the same as something yuo call sassafras. Do you know the botanic
name?

Not Terri, but;
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/s/sassaf20.html
Sassafras officinale
BTW- Where is 'here' - and what is the botanical name of the plants
you call Sassafras?

"Here" for me is Australia (Terri knows where I live).

The trees which go by the "sassafras" name here (in Oz) are:
Atherosperma moschatum,
Doryphora sassafras, and last, but perhaps not the last of those trees
called by that name here, is
Cinnamomum oliveri,

In some states, sassafras is a valualbe timber (lumber) tree (eg in
Tasmania) but I'm not sure if all of the 'sassafras' trees have teh same
value for timber (lumber).

[Larry Caldwell]

In article <***@individual.net>, ***@micron.net
(dogsnus) says...

Post by dogsnus
Uh huh. That's the point I was making about the correlation between those
who eat out and those who seem to always complain about being broke where
I work.

The lunch menu today was hot open face turkey sandwiches garnished with
turkey gravy and cranberry-orange compote, with turkey vegetable soup,
and fresh sliced winter apples. It has been snowing off and on, and is
cold and nasty outside, but the (heat pump) heating system hasn't kicked
on because of the fire in the wood stove.

The free heat is a real budget saver. The electric bill is our only
utility bill, which includes water, lights and heat. It averages $100 a
month. Food for the 2 of us runs about $200 a month. Property taxes on
93 acres and a lovely home run $85 a month. Dang, I could live on
Social Security in this place! Retirement is starting to look pretty
good, particularly since I have a nice stand of timber ready to harvest
as soon as the bottom drops out of our income.

I can live on beans and gumbo. Yeah.

[dogsnus]

Larry Caldwell <***@teleport.com> wrote in news:***@news.west.earthlink.net:

and cranberry-orange compote,
I'd love to have this recipe to make with the left over cranberry sauce.

Post by Larry Caldwell
The free heat is a real budget saver.

Eh. I just opened the doors and windows to let some of that upper 70's-to
low 80's today inside the house. That way I can hear the cardinals better.
WEG!

The electric bill is our only

Post by Larry Caldwell
utility bill, which includes water, lights and heat. It averages $100 a
month. Food for the 2 of us runs about $200 a month. Property taxes on
93 acres and a lovely home run $85 a month.

Boggle. I thought you were in Oregon? In our quest to move from here
we just got through dealing with the sticker shock from property taxes.

Post by Larry Caldwell
I can live on beans and gumbo. Yeah.

We just made a pot of red beans and rice earlier in the week, using
leftover ham from Thanksgiving dinner. A little splash of Louisiana hot
sauce on top, some leftover skillet corn bread, and that there's all ya
need. Have you ever made your corn bread with a bit of real corn in it?
It really tastes good. I like to put a bit of diced onion in mine too.

Terri

[Larry Caldwell]

In article <***@individual.net>, ***@micron.net
(dogsnus) says...

Post by Larry Caldwell
The electric bill is our only

Post by Larry Caldwell
utility bill, which includes water, lights and heat. It averages $100 a
month. Food for the 2 of us runs about $200 a month. Property taxes on
93 acres and a lovely home run $85 a month.

Boggle. I thought you were in Oregon? In our quest to move from here
we just got through dealing with the sticker shock from property taxes.

Oregon's high property taxes are a myth. The state doesn't collect
property taxes, it is entirely a matter for local governments. In the
Portland Metro area, you have a bunch of California immigrants who pass
bond measures for marble studded and gold plated school buildings, and
police patrols on every street. My area is rural, and the voters
believe in self-sufficiency rather than letting the government do
everything. Just about everybody in the county got a 10% property tax
reduction this year, because one of the bond issues was retired.

I don't pay property taxes for sewer and water systems, because I
maintain my own. In 11 years, I have never seen a sheriff deputy on my
road, though a volunteer reserve deputy will show up to write a report
when somebody drives into the creek. Since I don't get much in the way
of public services, I don't pay much in the way of property taxes.

Post by Larry Caldwell

Post by Larry Caldwell
I can live on beans and gumbo. Yeah.

We just made a pot of red beans and rice earlier in the week, using
leftover ham from Thanksgiving dinner. A little splash of Louisiana hot
sauce on top, some leftover skillet corn bread, and that there's all ya
need. Have you ever made your corn bread with a bit of real corn in it?
It really tastes good. I like to put a bit of diced onion in mine too.

Yeah, sometimes I toss a can of sweet corn into the corn bread batter.
Which reminds me, I think I'm out of corn meal. I'll put it on the
list.

[j***@yahoo.com]

In the late 90's, there were several large mergers of grocery
distributors financed by high interest junk bonds, Vons/Safeway,
Kroger/Smiths, and others. The Clintonista Justice Dept. ignored the
antitrust laws to let it happen, and within a month, prices went up
about 30%, and more ever since. Plant a victory garden.-Jitney

[Larry Caldwell]

In article <***@individual.net>, ***@micron.net
(dogsnus) says...

Post by Larry Caldwell
and cranberry-orange compote,
I'd love to have this recipe to make with the left over cranberry sauce.

It's not really a recipe. Toss reasonably equal amounts of fresh
cranberries and peeled oranges into a pot. Simmer until mushy. Sweeten
to taste. I use turbinado sugar for sweetener, and favor the
cranberries in proportions.

I guess you could try it with cranberry sauce. It would work best with
the cranberry sauce that is actually just canned cranberries.

As a news flash, the cranberry growers in Washington State were hit hard
by hail last week, which destroyed the majority of their fresh cranberry
supply. Fresh cranberries might be tight for Christmas.

[dogsnus]

Post by Larry Caldwell
(dogsnus) says...

Post by Larry Caldwell
and cranberry-orange compote,
I'd love to have this recipe to make with the left over cranberry sauce.

It's not really a recipe. Toss reasonably equal amounts of fresh
cranberries and peeled oranges into a pot. Simmer until mushy. Sweeten
to taste. I use turbinado sugar for sweetener, and favor the
cranberries in proportions.

Thanks! I bet this would taste great over either french toast or
pancakes.

Post by Larry Caldwell
As a news flash, the cranberry growers in Washington State were hit hard
by hail last week, which destroyed the majority of their fresh cranberry
supply. Fresh cranberries might be tight for Christmas.

Damned wacky weather. I just checked on Hurricane Epsilon as I had
breathed a sigh of relief it was heading out to sea. It's done a 180 and
is heading back inland now:
http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200529_5day.html

Terri

[dogsnus]

Larry Caldwell <***@teleport.com> wrote in news:***@news.west.earthlink.net:


Larry,
I sent you an email.

Terri

[Janet Baraclough]

Post by m***@jach.hawaii.edu
Larry,
I sent you an email.

Usually you have to warn him beforehand:-)

Janet

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by Janet Baraclough

Post by m***@jach.hawaii.edu
Larry,
I sent you an email.

Usually you have to warn him beforehand:-)
Janet

Hey, it's not that hard to get my attention! Once you are in my
address book, emails just fly right through.

Larry

[Walter Jeffries]

We spend about $1.64 per person per day on food. This is a household of
five with a total annual food budget of about $3,000. That does include
garden seeds and the like. We buy very little that is processed. Mostly
basics like flour, fruits, fish, rice, spices, etc that we can't
produce ourselves very easily. I feel we eat well on that budget. Milk
is actually one of the biggest parts of our food budget. Gotta getta
cowa. :)

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Bloggin' at: http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/ Pastured Pigs & Lambs
Workin' at: http://BlackLightning.com/ Laser Printer Transfer Toners
Wife at: http://HollyGraphicArt.com/ Pencil Portraits

[Larry Caldwell]

Post by Walter Jeffries
We spend about $1.64 per person per day on food. This is a
household of five with a total annual food budget of about
$3,000. That does include garden seeds and the like. We buy
very little that is processed. Mostly basics like flour, fruits,
fish, rice, spices, etc that we can't produce ourselves very
easily. I feel we eat well on that budget. Milk is actually one of > the biggest parts of our food budget. Gotta getta cowa. :)

I think you are a ways under the average. I think people in the USA
now spend about 10% of their income on food, though that includes a lot
of prepared foods.

For milk, you should consider getting a couple of milk goats. Dairy
cows are milk producing machines that will drown you in milk, though
you can always feed the excess to the pigs. I once finished some
pastured hogs on milk, corn, apples and left over garden vegetables.
It was the most astonishing pork I have ever tasted. You really *are*
what you eat.

The Alpine breed of dairy goat gives good quantity and should handle
your climate just fine. They pasture well with sheep, though they tend
to bedevil the sheep a bit. Goats are browsers, not grazers, so they
will go for brush and high vegetation, while the sheep will graze the
short grass. I have also pastured goats with hogs to good effect.
It's one of the most effortless ways of clearing brushland there is.

You do NOT want a buck, just a couple does. Bucks are smelly and can
be aggressive. Just having one around the does will taint the milk.

The down side of having a milk animal, of course, is that you have to
milk them, twice a day, without fail, no matter if you oversleep or
come down with the flu. At least with dairy goats you can stick the
children with the milking at an early age. I started the morning cow
milkings at age 12. You could probably start kids on goats at age 10.

Larry