8 Snipers in Dealey Plaza

[claviger]

SOTN: Alternative News & Commentary

State of the Nation
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=88371
Only the C.I.A. could have positioned 8 sniper’s nests
around Dealey Plaza on Nov. 22, 1963
Posted on November 4, 2017 by State of the Nation
Only the C.I.A could have successfully coordinated
a 54 year cover-up of the JFK assassination.
Loading Image...


BEFORE IT'S NEWS
8 Sniper’s Nests Exposed in the Assassination Plot, This Is Who and
Why They Killed JFK
Friday, November 20, 2015
Loading Image...

[claviger]

The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12

11/11/10

Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11

It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.

I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.

After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.

1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.

2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.

3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.

4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.

5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.

6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.

7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.

8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.

9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.

10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.

11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.

12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.

13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.

14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.

15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.

16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.

17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.

18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.

19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.

20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.

21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.

22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.

These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.

Shot #1 – Items 1-3

Shot #2 – Items 4-5

Shot #3 – Item 6

Shot #4 – Items 7-8

Shot #5 – Items 9-12

Shot #6 – Items 13-15

Shot #7 – Items 16-18

Shot #8 – Items 19-21

Extraneous mark – Item 22

The following is a summary of the controversial issues surrounding these items:

[John McAdams]

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."

I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).

It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.

If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.

And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.


.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).

Then why don't you post it here? Keep your minions up to date? You know
they didn't buy your book.
In this modern day and age you can't think of ANY way to put your book
online? It wouldn't cost much and I'm sure the CIA would be willing to
subsidize it.

Post by John McAdams
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.

I like your logic. So if I find even one error in the WC report the
whole thing must be bogus. Hooray, I just won.
How many lies did you see in that list? Please list them.

Post by John McAdams
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.

So what? Most people say the shots came from the grassy knoll.
Does this mean I win again?
What happened to your echo chamber excuse?
You keep shooting yourself in the foot. Was that 6 times or were 3 of
those only echoes?

Post by John McAdams
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Now, do you want to debate your one bullet did all the damage to

[claviger]

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught. The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being

Maybe because they were CIA. How many times did the CIA try and fail to
assasinate Castro? Hundreds?

Post by claviger
caught. The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these

They are not required to CARRY rifles. They keep the rifle on the floor
of the Queen Mary. Most SS agents I've seen are very discrete about how
they carry their pistol of revolver. Most would put it on their belts
about halfway back on the left side. Some might carry it on the right
side. I have only seen a few who carry it on the back. When you look at
the SS agents guarding the President you almost never can clearly see
where they holster their gun.

Post by claviger
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The

[bigdog]

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

[mainframetech]

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.

Chris

[Jason Burke]

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.

What freaking planet have you been on for the last 54 yea

[Steve BH]

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

There is no such thing as a Manlicher-Carcano. Just a Carcano. The WC got
that wrong.

As for you other challenge we coundn't do it to your standards with a man
tied to a pole who we'd just SEEN executed by a firing squad.

[claviger]

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

So they used fake snipers?

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

One might think the more snipers used the higher risk of one
making a mistake to reveal the whole set-up. The other large
problem is how to eliminate all those snipers so none of them
get caught and confess.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of
the limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building. A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window. That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission. For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.

______________________________________________________________________

Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.

The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."

The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."

The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________


Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

So they used fake snipers?

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

One might think the more snipers used the higher risk of one
making a mistake to reveal the whole set-up. The other large
problem is how to eliminate all those snipers so none of them
get caught and confess.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of
the limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building. A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window. That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission. For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.
A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.
______________________________________________________________________
Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.
The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."
The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."
The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Simplistic thinking.

[claviger]

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Simplistic thinking.

Definition of Occam's razor. : a scientific and philosophical rule that
entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted
as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to
the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be
sought first in terms of known quantities.

Or the Least Complicated solution is usually the Best solution.

Occam's razor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor


Heuristic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic


Occam's Razor (Law Of Parsimony) Occam's razor,
also known as the law of parsimony (thriftiness),
is a problem-solving principle attributed to philosopher William of Ockam.
... In other applications that use logic the theory of Occam's razor
is used as a means of keeping explanations as simple as possible.

The Law of Parsimony
Principle (or Law) of Parsimony
the scientific principle that things are usually connected or behave
in the simplest or most economical way, especially with reference
to alternative evolutionary pathways.
late Middle English: from Latin parsimonia, parcimonia,
from parcere ‘be sparing.’


law of parsimony
noun Philosophy.
a principle according to which an explanation of a thing or event is made
with the fewest possible assumptions.
Origin of law of parsimony
First recorded in 1830–40


Occam's Razor (Law Of Parsimony) definition | Psychology Glossary ...
https://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term...%28Law+Of+Parsimony%29
Occam's Razor (Law Of Parsimony)


Occam's razor, also known as the law of parsimony (thriftiness), is a
problem-solving principle attributed to philosopher William of Ockam. In
science this principle is used a heuristic (or discovery) tool that guides
scientists for the development of scientific models. In other applications
that use logic the theory of Occam's razor is used as a means of keeping
explanations as simple as possible. Essentially, the simplest explanation
for something is typically the most likely. While not considered an
irrefutable means of deriving logic or scientific results it does stress
the importance of simplifying explanations.

For example, we know that when an object is dropped it will hit the
ground. This can be proved by dropping multiple types of objects from
different heights. When thinking about what causes this what is more
likely: that there is an energy or force that pulls things to the ground
or that invisible gnomes leap and pull the objects to the ground where
they attach them with invisible string? Obviously the first explanation is
more simple and using Occam's razor it would be the most probable
explanation.

https://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Occam%27s+Razor+%28Law+Of+Parsimony%29


What is the law of parsimony? - Times of India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com › News › What is the law of parsimony?
What is the law of parsimony?
This principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the Lex Parsimoniae (law of parsimony or law of succinctness). This is often paraphrased as: All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one. Or alternatively: We should not assert that for which we do not have some proof. In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities.
- Ashish Singh


What is Occam's Razor?
math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html
The principle states that "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily. ... which should be more correctly called the law of parsimony, or the rule of simplicity.


The Clinician's Law of Parsimony - Edge.org
https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25415
The Law of Parsimony, also known as Occam's razor, does not warrant a funeral but it does have some problems in its description of reality. This law states that ...


The Principle of Parsimony and Some... (PDF Download Available)
https://www.researchgate.net/.../266883461_The_Principle_of_Parsimony_and_Some...
Feb 17, 2018 - A modern principle of parsimony may be stated as follows: Where we .... act according to the rule underlain by the mental assumption according ...

[claviger]

Post by claviger

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Simplistic thinking.

Definition of Occam's razor. : a scientific and philosophical rule that
entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted
as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to
the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be
sought first in terms of known quantities.
Or the Least Complicated solution is usually the Best solution.

Least Complicated is usually the most Logical Conclusion.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by claviger

Post by claviger

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Simplistic thinking.

Definition of Occam's razor. : a scientific and philosophical rule that
entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted
as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to
the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be
sought first in terms of known quantities.
Or the Least Complicated solution is usually the Best solution.

Least Complicated is usually the most Logical Conclusion.

False. So you think the Earth is flat?

[OHLeeRedux]

5:16 PMAnthony Marsh
- show quoted text -
False. So you think the Earth is flat?


Idiotic Post #7 for the week. And Anthony is the author of every single
one.

But yeah. We are supposed to take anything at all he says seriously.

[mainframetech]

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

So they used fake snipers?

They used shooters without the solid sniper training that
professional snipers get. Those aren't available just any old time for
contract jobs back in 1963.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

One might think the more snipers used the higher risk of one
making a mistake to reveal the whole set-up. The other large
problem is how to eliminate all those snipers so none of them
get caught and confess.

One might think that, but one would be wrong. The shooters were more
than likely mafia operatives, and most didn't dare talk.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did NOT hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of
the limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head? Did you go look at the bullet hole, or would that be
too scary for you?

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

Since no one in the 6th floor of the TSBD hit anything in the
motorcade, you'll have to tell me how you think they did.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove that he
fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been used as
a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

Post by claviger
A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.

That's nice. But so what? It doesn't prove an MC type bullet hit or
hurt anyone.

Post by claviger
______________________________________________________________________
Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.
The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."
The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."
The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Not really. It is a guide for logical thinking in certain
circumstances. But it is a guide only, and not a hard and fast rule.


You cannot prove that any MC bullet hit or hurt anyone.


And you might find this video of use, since it covers the men who
killed JFK, by name and occupation:

Chris

[bigdog]

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

So they used fake snipers?

They used shooters without the solid sniper training that
professional snipers get. Those aren't available just any old time for
contract jobs back in 1963.

Where do you go to find professional snipers? Are they in the Yellow
Pages?

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

One might think the more snipers used the higher risk of one
making a mistake to reveal the whole set-up. The other large
problem is how to eliminate all those snipers so none of them
get caught and confess.

One might think that, but one would be wrong. The shooters were more
than likely mafia operatives, and most didn't dare talk.

So the Mafia didn't have any competent hit men available to them.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did NOT hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of
the limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head? Did you go look at the bullet hole, or would that be
too scary for you?

Forward of the limo? Well you have eliminated half the earth with that
description.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

Since no one in the 6th floor of the TSBD hit anything in the
motorcade, you'll have to tell me how you think they did.

Really? Where did the shot come from that hit JFK in the back? How about
the one you think hit the chrome bar? How did a bullet from the rifle
found in the TSBD end up in the limo?

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

They must have just thrown that bullet into the limo.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

What about the bullet from that rifle that was found in pieces on the
floor of the limo?

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove that he
fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

No, we have lots of other evidence for that. Of course you have excuses to
dismiss all of it.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been used as
a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

Escape? To where?

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.

That's nice. But so what? It doesn't prove an MC type bullet hit or
hurt anyone.

No, that's where the common sense comes in. I can't prove the Cleveland
Cavaliers have no chance of going back to the NBA finals if Lebron leaves,
but anybody with an ounce of common sense knows that to be true.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
______________________________________________________________________
Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.
The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."
The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."
The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Not really. It is a guide for logical thinking in certain
circumstances. But it is a guide only, and not a hard and fast rule.

I like your guide better. If it sounds good to you and you want to believe
it, that's good enough.

Post by mainframetech
You cannot prove that any MC bullet hit or hurt anyone.

You really need that proven? <chuckle>

Post by mainframetech
And you might find this video of use, since it covers the men who
http://youtu.be/h1jYVXDAhfE

So if some schmuck makes a video, I guess that's all the proof we need.
The hell with evidence.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

So they used fake snipers?

They used shooters without the solid sniper training that
professional snipers get. Those aren't available just any old time for
contract jobs back in 1963.

Where do you go to find professional snipers? Are they in the Yellow
Pages?

They're in the WHite Pages under CIA.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

One might think the more snipers used the higher risk of one
making a mistake to reveal the whole set-up. The other large
problem is how to eliminate all those snipers so none of them
get caught and confess.

One might think that, but one would be wrong. The shooters were more
than likely mafia operatives, and most didn't dare talk.

So the Mafia didn't have any competent hit men available to them.

Neither did the CIA? How many times did they miss Castro?

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did NOT hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of
the limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head? Did you go look at the bullet hole, or would that be
too scary for you?

Forward of the limo? Well you have eliminated half the earth with that
description.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

Since no one in the 6th floor of the TSBD hit anything in the
motorcade, you'll have to tell me how you think they did.

Really? Where did the shot come from that hit JFK in the back? How about
the one you think hit the chrome bar? How did a bullet from the rifle
found in the TSBD end up in the limo?

No bullet was found in the limo. Only fragments. Those could have come
from 1 or 2 bullets, maybe even 3.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

They must have just thrown that bullet into the limo.

Or dropped it at Parkland. No bullet was found in the limo.
One of the most bizarre theories was that the conspirators took an
Oswald practice bullet and put it into a sabot and then fired it at the
limo using a different rifle.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

What about the bullet from that rifle that was found in pieces on the
floor of the limo?

OK, which shot?

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove that he
fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

No, we have lots of other evidence for that. Of course you have excuses to
dismiss all of it.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been used as
a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

Escape? To where?

Cuba, Si?

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.

That's nice. But so what? It doesn't prove an MC type bullet hit or
hurt anyone.

No, that's where the common sense comes in. I can't prove the Cleveland
Cavaliers have no chance of going back to the NBA finals if Lebron leaves,
but anybody with an ounce of common sense knows that to be true.

ASSuMing based on prejudice is not comment sense.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
______________________________________________________________________
Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.
The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."
The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."
The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Not really. It is a guide for logical thinking in certain
circumstances. But it is a guide only, and not a hard and fast rule.

I like your guide better. If it sounds good to you and you want to believe
it, that's good enough.

Post by mainframetech
You cannot prove that any MC bullet hit or hurt anyone.

You really need that proven? <chuckle>

Post by mainframetech
And you might find this video of use, since it covers the men who
http://youtu.be/h1jYVXDAhfE

So if some schmuck makes a video, I guess that's all the proof we need.
The hell with evidence.

[claviger]

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head?

Forward of the Limo where?

Post by mainframetech
Did you go look at the bullet hole, or would that be
too scary for you?

The only bullet hole was in back of the head.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

Since no one in the 6th floor of the TSBD hit anything in the
motorcade, you'll have to tell me how you think they did.

There is overwhelming proof shots came from the 6th floor.
No proof whatsoever any shots came from in front of the
Limousine or the picket fence.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

Attempted Murder is a crime.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

Firing shots at the motorcade is a crime whether they hit anyone or not.
It's called Attempted Murder.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove
that he fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

Then why did he leave work without permission and shoot a policeman?

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been
used as a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

How does that justify shooting a police officer?

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.

That's nice. But so what? It doesn't prove an MC type bullet hit or
hurt anyone.

There were only two rifles in Dealey Plaza, one on the 6th floor
of the TSBD and one in the SSA security car.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
______________________________________________________________________
Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.
The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."
The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."
The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Not really. It is a guide for logical thinking in certain
circumstances. But it is a guide only, and not a hard and fast rule.
You cannot prove that any MC bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Laser technology proves you wrong.

Post by mainframetech
And you might find this video of use, since it covers the men who
http://youtu.be/h1jYVXDAhfE
Chris

You cannot prove there was a shot fired from in front of the Limousine or
from the GK. You have no proof at all of any shot from that direction.
You have no concept of trajectory analysis and never will. All this is
too technical for you.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head?

Forward of the Limo where?

10 feet west of the corner of the fence.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
Did you go look at the bullet hole, or would that be
too scary for you?

The only bullet hole was in back of the head.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

Since no one in the 6th floor of the TSBD hit anything in the
motorcade, you'll have to tell me how you think they did.

There is overwhelming proof shots came from the 6th floor.
No proof whatsoever any shots came from in front of the
Limousine or the picket fence.

YOU are the proof.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

Attempted Murder is a crime.

But don't you believe that the SS accidentally shot JFK in the head?
An accident is not attempted murder.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

Firing shots at the motorcade is a crime whether they hit anyone or not.
It's called Attempted Murder.

Unless he's a SS agent and he simply made a mistake, eh?

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove
that he fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

Then why did he leave work without permission and shoot a policeman?

You can't link the two things together.
Others left work. Other people shoot the police without first having
assassinated a President.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been
used as a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

How does that justify shooting a police officer?

Paranoia.

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A Jury Panel in a Criminal Court hearing evidence in a Capital Murder
Case is allowed to consider circumstantial evidence and instructed
by the Judge to use common sense in rendering a verdict.

That's nice. But so what? It doesn't prove an MC type bullet hit or
hurt anyone.

There were only two rifles in Dealey Plaza, one on the 6th floor
of the TSBD and one in the SSA security car.

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
______________________________________________________________________
Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday
matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that
is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.
The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as
"the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they
ought to be done."
The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying
unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative
thought."
The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense
is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived
experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
______________________________________________________________________
Occam's Razor is a classic example of Commonsense.

Not really. It is a guide for logical thinking in certain
circumstances. But it is a guide only, and not a hard and fast rule.
You cannot prove that any MC bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Laser technology proves you wrong.

Post by mainframetech
And you might find this video of use, since it covers the men who
http://youtu.be/h1jYVXDAhfE
Chris

You cannot prove there was a shot fired from in front of the Limousine or
from the GK. You have no proof at all of any shot from that direction.

We already did. 1978. Get a calendar.

Post by claviger
You have no concept of trajectory analysis and never will. All this is
too technical for you.

[claviger]

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head?

Forward of the Limo where?

10 feet west of the corner of the fence.

You used to say 9 feet from the corner.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
There is overwhelming proof shots came from the 6th floor.
No proof whatsoever any shots came from in front of the
Limousine or the picket fence.

YOU are the proof.

How so?

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

Attempted Murder is a crime.

But don't you believe that the SS accidentally shot JFK in the head?
An accident is not attempted murder.

Of course not, the SSA was trying to protect the President.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

Firing shots at the motorcade is a crime whether they hit anyone or not.
It's called Attempted Murder.

Unless he's a SS agent and he simply made a mistake, eh?

A SSA was seen standing up with a weapon and falling
back down by a witness on the Triple Underpass.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove
that he fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

Then why did he leave work without permission and shoot a policeman?

You can't link the two things together.

LHO did both the same day.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Others left work.

After a meeting with Roy Truly who gave them permission.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Other people shoot the police without first
having assassinated a President.

Did they work at the TSBD?

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been
used as a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

How does that justify shooting a police officer?

Paranoia.

Please explain.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
You cannot prove there was a shot fired from in front of the Limousine or
from the GK. You have no proof at all of any shot from that direction.

We already did. 1978. Get a calendar.

The "acoustic evidence" was debunked a long time ago.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by claviger

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head?

Forward of the Limo where?

10 feet west of the corner of the fence.

You used to say 9 feet from the corner.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
There is overwhelming proof shots came from the 6th floor.
No proof whatsoever any shots came from in front of the
Limousine or the picket fence.

YOU are the proof.

How so?

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

Attempted Murder is a crime.

But don't you believe that the SS accidentally shot JFK in the head?
An accident is not attempted murder.

Of course not, the SSA was trying to protect the President.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

Firing shots at the motorcade is a crime whether they hit anyone or not.
It's called Attempted Murder.

Unless he's a SS agent and he simply made a mistake, eh?

A SSA was seen standing up with a weapon and falling
back down by a witness on the Triple Underpass.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove
that he fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

Then why did he leave work without permission and shoot a policeman?

You can't link the two things together.

LHO did both the same day.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Others left work.

After a meeting with Roy Truly who gave them permission.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Other people shoot the police without first
having assassinated a President.

Did they work at the TSBD?

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been
used as a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

How does that justify shooting a police officer?

Paranoia.

Please explain.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
You cannot prove there was a shot fired from in front of the Limousine or
from the GK. You have no proof at all of any shot from that direction.

We already did. 1978. Get a calendar.

The "acoustic evidence" was debunked a long time ago.

YOU were debunked decades ago.

[claviger]

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
Out of curiosity, where did that bullet come from?

Forward of the limo. How else could there be a bullet hole in the
FRONT of JFK's head?

Forward of the Limo where?

10 feet west of the corner of the fence.

You used to say 9 feet from the corner.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
There is overwhelming proof shots came from the 6th floor.
No proof whatsoever any shots came from in front of the
Limousine or the picket fence.

YOU are the proof.

How so?

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech
You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target. No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone. If you think one did,
then prove it.
Chris

Gosh you have such a short memory. Numerous witnesses heard and
saw a sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD Building.

Seeing a shooter in a window does NOT prove they hit anything by
shooting out the window.

Attempted Murder is a crime.

But don't you believe that the SS accidentally shot JFK in the head?
An accident is not attempted murder.

Of course not, the SSA was trying to protect the President.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
A rifle that
belonged to a TSBD employee was found on the 6th floor along with
empty shells under the window.

Finding a rifle and 3 shells on the 6th floor does NOT say that there
was anything hit with any bullet from the 6th floor.

Firing shots at the motorcade is a crime whether they hit anyone or not.
It's called Attempted Murder.

Unless he's a SS agent and he simply made a mistake, eh?

A SSA was seen standing up with a weapon and falling
back down by a witness on the Triple Underpass.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
That same employee left the building
and went home without notification or permission.

He wasn't the only one. However, going home does NOT prove
that he fired a rifle or that he hit anything with a rifle.

Then why did he leave work without permission and shoot a policeman?

You can't link the two things together.

LHO did both the same day.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Others left work.

After a meeting with Roy Truly who gave them permission.

Post by Anthony Marsh
Other people shoot the police without first
having assassinated a President.

Did they work at the TSBD?

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger

Post by mainframetech

Post by claviger
For the rest of the
day he did a very good imitation of a felon on the run, until captured
hiding in a movie theater.

Or he did a good job of emulating someone who knew he had been
used as a 'patsy' and was trying to escape.

How does that justify shooting a police officer?

Paranoia.

Please explain.

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by claviger
You cannot prove there was a shot fired from in front of the Limousine or
from the GK. You have no proof at all of any shot from that direction.

We already did. 1978. Get a calendar.

The "acoustic evidence" was debunked a long time ago.

YOU were debunked decades ago.

Gosh I don't remember that happening. Do you have any details?

[bigdog]

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you say that trials and evidence are unnecessary?
Then why do the WC defenders keep making up so many versions of their SBT?
And for the millionth time, stop say recovered bullets.
Only one bullet was found. You don't even know the

[mainframetech]

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone. I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet, and
sometimes the bullet stays in the victim, and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.

Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone. I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet, and
sometimes the bullet stays in the victim, and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.
Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.
Chris

Why do you say things that you know are not true. There was one bullet
found at the hospital. There were several fragments, not bullets, found
in the limo.
Where is your sec

[OHLeeRedux]

Post by Anthony Marsh

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone. I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet, and
sometimes the bullet stays in the victim, and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.
Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.
Chris

Why do you say things that you know are not true. There was one bullet
found at the hospital. There were several fragments, not bullets, found
in the limo.
Where is your second BULLET? Are you hiding it? Did you eat it?

Your daddy has it.

[bigdog]

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone.

If that was something that needed to be proved, nobody would ever be
convicted of a gun shot murder in which the bullets didn't remain in the
victim's body. You are demanding a standard of proof that isn't required
in any other case. If you don't believe the Carcano bullets were the ones
that struck JFK, let's see you prove other bullets struck him. Since you
are demanding that proof for the recovered Carcano bullets, it stands to
reason you should have to prove that for the bullet you believe killed
him. Or is this another example of your doubles standards. One standard of
proof for the conclusions of the WC and a much, much lower standard of
proof for your beliefs. The latter seems to be anything you want to
believe. That's proof enough for you.

Post by mainframetech
I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet,

That would only prove that a lead bullet struck a victim. It wouldn't
prove that any specific lead bullet struck the victim.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet stays in the victim,

We're speaking specifically of cases where the bullets didn't remain in
the victim's body.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.

Can you name another case in which such a forensic test was conducted to
prove a specific bullet had caused the wounds to the victim? Didn't think
so. This is just a red herring you have introduced to give you an excuse
to dismiss from evidence the only bullets ever recovered from the
shooting. That's all you really are after. Excuses. Anything so that you
don't have to accept any evidence which points at Oswald, which is just
about the entire body of evidence.

Post by mainframetech
Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.

The things you imagine are not evidence. There's no wonder you have such a
hard time figuring out a murder case that was so cut and dried the DPD had
it solved within 12 hours. You dismiss each and every piece of real
evidence, then you will draw wild conclusions based on imaginary things
and pretend they constitute evidence. You are hardly alone. That
description pretty much fits every conspiracy hobbyist who has denied
Oswald fired the shots that killed JFK.

[Mark]

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone.

If that was something that needed to be proved, nobody would ever be
convicted of a gun shot murder in which the bullets didn't remain in the
victim's body. You are demanding a standard of proof that isn't required
in any other case. If you don't believe the Carcano bullets were the ones
that struck JFK, let's see you prove other bullets struck him. Since you
are demanding that proof for the recovered Carcano bullets, it stands to
reason you should have to prove that for the bullet you believe killed
him. Or is this another example of your doubles standards. One standard of
proof for the conclusions of the WC and a much, much lower standard of
proof for your beliefs. The latter seems to be anything you want to
believe. That's proof enough for you.

Post by mainframetech
I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet,

That would only prove that a lead bullet struck a victim. It wouldn't
prove that any specific lead bullet struck the victim.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet stays in the victim,

We're speaking specifically of cases where the bullets didn't remain in
the victim's body.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.

Can you name another case in which such a forensic test was conducted to
prove a specific bullet had caused the wounds to the victim? Didn't think
so. This is just a red herring you have introduced to give you an excuse
to dismiss from evidence the only bullets ever recovered from the
shooting. That's all you really are after. Excuses. Anything so that you
don't have to accept any evidence which points at Oswald, which is just
about the entire body of evidence.

Post by mainframetech
Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.

The things you imagine are not evidence. There's no wonder you have such a
hard time figuring out a murder case that was so cut and dried the DPD had
it solved within 12 hours. You dismiss each and every piece of real

You're right. They said it was an "International Communist Conspiracy."
You agree with that, right?

Why the nerve of those Commie-phobe DPD rednecks! After having a POTUS
murdered at the height of the Cold War in their own backyard, can't
imagine why they would raise the possibility.

Mark

[claviger]

Post by Mark

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone.

If that was something that needed to be proved, nobody would ever be
convicted of a gun shot murder in which the bullets didn't remain in the
victim's body. You are demanding a standard of proof that isn't required
in any other case. If you don't believe the Carcano bullets were the ones
that struck JFK, let's see you prove other bullets struck him. Since you
are demanding that proof for the recovered Carcano bullets, it stands to
reason you should have to prove that for the bullet you believe killed
him. Or is this another example of your doubles standards. One standard of
proof for the conclusions of the WC and a much, much lower standard of
proof for your beliefs. The latter seems to be anything you want to
believe. That's proof enough for you.

Post by mainframetech
I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet,

That would only prove that a lead bullet struck a victim. It wouldn't
prove that any specific lead bullet struck the victim.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet stays in the victim,

We're speaking specifically of cases where the bullets didn't remain in
the victim's body.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.

Can you name another case in which such a forensic test was conducted to
prove a specific bullet had caused the wounds to the victim? Didn't think
so. This is just a red herring you have introduced to give you an excuse
to dismiss from evidence the only bullets ever recovered from the
shooting. That's all you really are after. Excuses. Anything so that you
don't have to accept any evidence which points at Oswald, which is just
about the entire body of evidence.

Post by mainframetech
Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.

The things you imagine are not evidence. There's no wonder you have such a
hard time figuring out a murder case that was so cut and dried the DPD had
it solved within 12 hours. You dismiss each and every piece of real

You're right. They said it was an "International Communist Conspiracy."
You agree with that, right?

Why the nerve of those Commie-phobe DPD rednecks! After having a POTUS
murdered at the height of the Cold War in their own backyard, can't
imagine why they would raise the possibility.

Well, they were paranoid about the Communists. You have to remember that
Dallas was the City of Hate. They were being bombarded every day with
propaganda from the John Birch Society.
Not that any of them were actually JBS members, but it wears on your nerves.

Post by Mark
Mark

The "City of Hate" welcomed President Kennedy and
Jackie with open arms.

A Communist punk shot at him with a milsurp rifle.

Actions speak louder than words, like the sound of
a rifle echoing off the buildings in Dealey Plaza.

[Mark]

Post by Mark

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

WRONG as usual! They had competent hit men and used them to kill
people, but it is easy to walk up to someone and pop them in the BOH and
walk away. Hitting someone at a distance is not the same thing.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Thank you. There was, and I've listed it many times.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' did not hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

A bullet hole in the front side of the head tells a great deal as to
location. But it is still a wide area to start picking out exact
locations.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

"All" the recovered bullets? There were 2 bullets recovered that were
from the MC rifle, and it is clear that they didn't hit or hurt anyone.
One of them may not have had ANY relationship to the murder at all.
"Recovered shells" do NOT show that some bullet hit or hurt anyone either.
You're fond of listing all these little things and claiming that they mean
that Oswald committed murder on JFK, but you really haven't proven
anything.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

So you have an excuse for why you're not going to prove that an MC
bullet hit or hurt anyone.

If that was something that needed to be proved, nobody would ever be
convicted of a gun shot murder in which the bullets didn't remain in the
victim's body. You are demanding a standard of proof that isn't required
in any other case. If you don't believe the Carcano bullets were the ones
that struck JFK, let's see you prove other bullets struck him. Since you
are demanding that proof for the recovered Carcano bullets, it stands to
reason you should have to prove that for the bullet you believe killed
him. Or is this another example of your doubles standards. One standard of
proof for the conclusions of the WC and a much, much lower standard of
proof for your beliefs. The latter seems to be anything you want to
believe. That's proof enough for you.

Post by mainframetech
I see. Actually, there is a test that a
bullet passed through a body. The body sometimes gets a grey ring around
the bullet hole that penetrated the victim if it was a lead bullet,

That would only prove that a lead bullet struck a victim. It wouldn't
prove that any specific lead bullet struck the victim.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet stays in the victim,

We're speaking specifically of cases where the bullets didn't remain in
the victim's body.

Post by mainframetech
and sometimes the bullet retains
bits of blood or other tissue from the body of the victim, and probably
other tests as well.

Can you name another case in which such a forensic test was conducted to
prove a specific bullet had caused the wounds to the victim? Didn't think
so. This is just a red herring you have introduced to give you an excuse
to dismiss from evidence the only bullets ever recovered from the
shooting. That's all you really are after. Excuses. Anything so that you
don't have to accept any evidence which points at Oswald, which is just
about the entire body of evidence.

Post by mainframetech
Common sense is a fine tool, but not absolute. It also won't be too
useful in this case, since we have evidence of changing evidence, and the
framing of a 'patsy'. Those circumstances demand a greater burden of
proof.

The things you imagine are not evidence. There's no wonder you have such a
hard time figuring out a murder case that was so cut and dried the DPD had
it solved within 12 hours. You dismiss each and every piece of real

You're right. They said it was an "International Communist Conspiracy."
You agree with that, right?

Why the nerve of those Commie-phobe DPD rednecks! After having a POTUS
murdered at the height of the Cold War in their own backyard, can't
imagine why they would raise the possibility.

Well, they were paranoid about the Communists. You have to remember that
Dallas was the City of Hate. They were being bombarded every day with
propaganda from the John Birch Society.
Not that any of them were actually JBS members, but it wears on your nerves.

Post by Mark
Mark

I don't think my sarcasm got through. Mark

[Ace Kefford]

BigDog wrote: "Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent
hit men."

Very good point, Doggie. We know that no sensible conspirators would
include Oswald as an assassin. For that matter no sensible conspiracy
plot would use his cheapo weapon, other than I suppose to be fair as a
means of creating a false trail.

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain stumped.

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by Ace Kefford
BigDog wrote: "Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent
hit men."
Very good point, Doggie. We know that no sensible conspirators would
include Oswald as an assassin. For that matter no sensible conspiracy
plot would use his cheapo weapon, other than I suppose to be fair as a
means of creating a false trail.

They HAVE to use it, to frame him.
Of course YOU would not have been suspicious if they found a $5,000 CIA
assassination weapon.

Post by Ace Kefford

Post by bigdog

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Since real snipers weren't available to the Mafia, they did what they
could by having plenty of shooters trying to get the target. It worked.

Right. The Mafia didn't know where to go to hire competent hit men.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

The "lone nut' theory worked. As False as it was.

It "worked" because it was the way it happened. Had there been multiple
shooters, there would be real evidence of such.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

The 'patsy' hit the target. Since the kill shot was a bullet to the
right forehead/temple area of JFK, someone more to the front of the
limousine had to be the successful shooter.

Yet you can't pinpoint a location that would fit the evidence.

Post by mainframetech

Post by bigdog
Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

You have nothing proving that anyone from the TSBD was able to hit the
target.

You mean other than all the recovered bullets from the shooting, all the
recovered shells, all of which were positively matched to the rifle found
on the floor where a number of witnesses saw a man with a rifle.

Post by mainframetech
No MC rifle bullet hit or hurt anyone.

Because you say so.

Post by mainframetech
If you think one did, then prove it.

It's not something that normally needs to be proven. When someone is
killed by bullets which pass through their bodies, there is no test to
prove the bullets passed through the body. When can be shown is where the
bullet entered the body, where the bullet, exited the body, and where the
bullets ended up. It is then left to the common sense of juries to decide
if that is compelling evidence that the recovered bullets were the ones
that killed the victim. That's what was done in the murder trial in which
I was a juror. Since common sense doesn't seem to be in your tool box, I
guess you're going to remain s

[Anthony Marsh]

Post by bigdog

Post by claviger

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

If CTs are right about multiple snipers why were so many of them
incompetent? The more snipers increase the odds of one of them being
caught.

Also, the more snipers, the harder it is going to be to frame once guy.

Post by claviger
The so-called SSA on the Grassy Knoll had no weapon. What
happened to the rifle or sidearm SSA are required to carry? All these
shots yet The Patsy was the only one to hit the target. The Conspiracy
hired "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight."

Luckily for the conspirators, the only competent shooter they had was the
one in the TSBD. He's the only one who hit the target. The other suspected
shooters were Ray Charles, Ronnie Milsap, Jose Feliciano, and Helen
Keller.

I guess that's supposed to be some type of discrimination insult, but I
f

[Ace Kefford]

Post by John McAdams

Post by claviger
The Shots in Dealey Plaza
Copyright © 2010, 2011 by William Orchard
http://theshotsindealeyplaza.com/?page_id=12
11/11/10
Revised 6/2/11, 6/27/11, 7/29/11, 10/28/11, 11/25/11
It is no longer necessary to prove that the Warren Commission was wrong about the shots in Dealey Plaza. What is necessary is focusing on the totality of circumstances and creating a shot scenario that assassination researchers can agree upon. With such a scenario in hand we can concentrate on other unresolved issues and someday push through to a conclusion. My hope is that the following scenario is or is close to the one we can agree on.
I was guided by several assumptions. No witnesses described Dealey Plaza as a “war zone” or a “shooting gallery.” Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. Consequently I maintained a doctrine of economy of shots. However, it is clear that the shooters were confident of their ability to control the crime scene. Knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story, I believe the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative. I assumed that the shooters were professionals who chose locations that maximized cover, effective shots and ease of escape. I assumed that every shot was a credible attempt to hit the president. The exception was the Texas School Book Depository, which was chosen to
incriminate Oswald and not for its desirability as a shooting location. I also believe that the shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything, a fact he probably was not aware of.
After nearly half a century emotions still run high in Kennedy assassination research. Emotions notwithstanding, a scenario of the shots in Dealey Plaza has to address the following twenty-two items.
1 – Witnesses reported that the first shot hit the pavement.
2 – The Breneman & West survey noted a bullet mark on the south curb of Elm Street across from the north pergola.
3 – The City of Dallas cut out the section of curb with the bullet mark shortly after the Breneman & West survey was completed.
4 – President Kennedy had a wound in his neck.
5 – President Kennedy had a wound in his back.
6 – A bullet hit the south curb of Main Street near the Triple Underpass and wounded James Tague on the right cheek.
7 – Surveyor Chester Breneman reported hearing about a stress mark on the Stemmons Freeway sign that was caused by a bullet.
8 – The City of Dallas removed the Stemmons Freeway sign shortly after the assassination.
9 – Governor Connally had a through and through bullet wound from his right armpit to his right nipple.
10 – Governor Connally had a shattered right wrist.
11 – Governor Connally had a bullet embedded in his left thigh.
12 – Nellie Connally stated that her husband never let go of the hat in his right hand.
13 – The Presidential limousine had an indentation in the chrome frame of the windshield to the left of the right visor.
14 – The Presidential limousine had a defect in the windshield just below the indentation in the frame.
15 – The back of the rear view mirror of the limousine had a dent just below the defect in the windshield.
16 – President Kennedy had a massive gunshot wound to the head. Blood, bone and brain tissue exploded in all directions.
17 – On the Zapruder film, Kennedy’s head moves forward just before the shot to his head.
18 – Kennedy’s body fell back and to the left after the gunshot wound to his head.
19 – Witnesses reported a gunshot after the shot to Kennedy’s head.
20 – There was a furrow in the grass near the manhole on the south curb of Elm Street just west of the north pergola.
21 – A man was observed and photographed picking up something in the grass and putting it in his pocket. Whatever the man picked up was never seen again.
22 – There was a groove in the sidewalk on the north side of Elm Street that lines up with the west window of the Texas School Book Depository.
These twenty-two items were arranged to correspond to my scenario of eight shots.
Shot #1 – Items 1-3
Shot #2 – Items 4-5
Shot #3 – Item 6
Shot #4 – Items 7-8
Shot #5 – Items 9-12
Shot #6 – Items 13-15
Shot #7 – Items 16-18
Shot #8 – Items 19-21
Extraneous mark – Item 22

I have a chapter in my book titled "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
I have a list similar to this, but with a much more comprehensive list
that does not count as separate hits things caused by one bullet
(Kennedy's head shot and windshield ding, for example).
It is "too much evidence of conspiracy" because *most* of the supposed
hits *must* be bogus, or else there were four or five snipers in
Dealey Plaza blasting away with abandon.
If *most* of them must be bogus, it's easy to believe that *all* are
bogus except for the hits caused by three bullets known to have been
fired.
And over 90% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza reported three or fewer
shots.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Haven't you ever heard the saying, "the more the merrier"?

[tom guiliano]

Post by claviger
SOTN: Alternative News & Commentary
State of the Nation
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=88371
Only the C.I.A. could have positioned 8 sniper’s nests
around Dealey Plaza on Nov. 22, 1963
Posted on November 4, 2017 by State of the Nation
Only the C.I.A could have successfully coordinated
a 54 year cover-up of the JFK assassination.
http://stateofthenation2012.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Screen-Shot-2017-11-04-at-6.42.04-AM.png
BEFORE IT'S NEWS
8 Sniper’s Nests Exposed in the Assassination Plot, This Is Who and
Why They Killed JFK
Friday, November 20, 2015
http://stateofthenation2012.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/jfk-assassination-dealy-plaze-shooters-outlined-jfk-truth-kennedy-oswald-bush-cia-mafia-mob-gioncana.png