Italian Gothic

[p***@hotmail.com]

One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire. When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.

Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry? With the availability and
popularity of DNA analysis I suspect there is more information
about this than previously.

My thanks in advance for any replies.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire.

It happened at different times in different regions. Britain,
for example, was gradually abandoned, with hostorians setting the
final date around 410, ~ 70 years before Theoderic invaded Italy.
In 455, the Franks had conquered Cologne.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire

The Ostrogoths had taken over Italy, which was pretty much
all that was left at the time.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.

The collapse and depopulation of Italy occurred when the East
Roman Empire reconquered it during the Gothic War.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry?

I would be surprised. There were never many Goths in Italy, and
Europe (and Italy especially) has been pretty much a melting pot
over the centuries. The Langobards conquered most of Italy a few
years after the end of Gothic rule, and there was considerable
coquest and re-conquest, especially of Nothern Italy, during the
middle ages.

However, blond as a hair color is recessive, so I would expect that
most decendants of blond people who came to Italy many centuries
ago now have dark hair. Maybe the hair was bleached, or she
or a more recent ancestor had come from someplace else.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
With the availability and
popularity of DNA analysis I suspect there is more information
about this than previously.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire.

It happened at different times in different regions. Britain,
for example, was gradually abandoned, with hostorians setting the
final date around 410, ~ 70 years before Theoderic invaded Italy.
In 455, the Franks had conquered Cologne.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire

The Ostrogoths had taken over Italy, which was pretty much
all that was left at the time.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.

The collapse and depopulation of Italy occurred when the East
Roman Empire reconquered it during the Gothic War.

Which is what Padway's trying to prevent. He manages, trained by
a year of high-school ROTC, to overcome an Eastern army and
capture Belisarius.

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by p***@hotmail.com
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry?

I would be surprised. There were never many Goths in Italy, and
Europe (and Italy especially) has been pretty much a melting pot
over the centuries.

But the Goths had conquered Italy by Padway's time.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire.

It happened at different times in different regions. Britain,
for example, was gradually abandoned, with hostorians setting the
final date around 410, ~ 70 years before Theoderic invaded Italy.
In 455, the Franks had conquered Cologne.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire

The Ostrogoths had taken over Italy, which was pretty much
all that was left at the time.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.

The collapse and depopulation of Italy occurred when the East
Roman Empire reconquered it during the Gothic War.

Which is what Padway's trying to prevent. He manages, trained by
a year of high-school ROTC, to overcome an Eastern army and
capture Belisarius.

Can I hope he treated Belisarius better than the Emperor eventually
did?

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by p***@hotmail.com
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry?

I would be surprised. There were never many Goths in Italy, and
Europe (and Italy especially) has been pretty much a melting pot
over the centuries.

But the Goths had conquered Italy by Padway's time.

[William Hyde]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire.

It happened at different times in different regions. Britain,
for example, was gradually abandoned, with hostorians setting the
final date around 410, ~ 70 years before Theoderic invaded Italy.
In 455, the Franks had conquered Cologne.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire

The Ostrogoths had taken over Italy, which was pretty much
all that was left at the time.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.

The collapse and depopulation of Italy occurred when the East
Roman Empire reconquered it during the Gothic War.

Which is what Padway's trying to prevent. He manages, trained by
a year of high-school ROTC, to overcome an Eastern army and
capture Belisarius.

Can I hope he treated Belisarius better than the Emperor eventually
did?

I don't think you'd regret reading the book. Quite the reverse.

William Hyde

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire. When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.

One of my favorites of all time.

Post by p***@hotmail.com
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry? With the availability and
popularity of DNA analysis I suspect there is more information
about this than previously.

Very likely: Goths, or Gauls. Virgil, according to my research,
was descended from cisalpine Gauls, had fair hair running to
thinness, and was subject to sunburn.

So, incidentally, was Augustus, who never went outdoors without a
hat.

[William Hyde]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire. When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry? With the availability and
popularity of DNA analysis I suspect there is more information
about this than previously.
My thanks in advance for any replies.

Possibly Gaulish instead of (or plus) Germanic. What is now the northeast
of Italy was not considered part of "Italia" in Roman times, but was "Cisalpine
Gaul", inhabited by a mix of recently arrived Gauls and the native population.

Unlike the Goths, the Gauls came in large numbers relative to the local
population so genes for red or blond hair might be fairly common.

I did have a blond student from Italy, but she was from Milan by way of parts north,
near the Swiss border, I think.

Sergio Leone commented that he'd have cast a blond as Don Vito Corleone, as a nod
to the Norse, who apparently left quite a few genes for blond or red hair behind
them in Sicily. Blonds and redheads were more common there, he said, than
across the straits on the mainland.

William Hyde

[David Johnston]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire. When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry? With the availability and
popularity of DNA analysis I suspect there is more information
about this than previously.
My thanks in advance for any replies.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Venice is in the north of Italy. Since the Ostrogoths there have been
1500 years of Italy being next door to Switzerland with the resulting
predictable genetic exchanges.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 10:40:36 -0600, David Johnston

Post by David Johnston

Post by p***@hotmail.com
One of the many things I learned from Lyon Sprague de Camp's classic
alternate history novel _Lest Darkness Fall_ was that the collapse of
civilization did not happen immediately following the barbarian
conquest of the Western Roman Empire. When a lightning bolt transports
archaeologist Martin Padway back to Rome in the year 535 AD he is
not in the Roman Empire as such but in the Ostrogothic Kingdom.
The Goths had taken over the western Empire but did not destroy it,
and the economy functioned much as before, so that there was
an infrastructure of financiers and artisans which Padway could
draw upon to create technologies such as distilling and printing
in his efforts to prevent the collapse which would otherwise
occur in the next few decades.
Several months ago there was a program on Minnesota public
television which showcased one of the proportionately few
woman gondoliers of Venice. Rather than a typical
Mediterranean, she was a slender blond. Are blond Italians
likely to be of Gothic ancestry? With the availability and
popularity of DNA analysis I suspect there is more information
about this than previously.
My thanks in advance for any replies.

Venice is in the north of Italy. Since the Ostrogoths there have been
1500 years of Italy being next door to Switzerland with the resulting
predictable genetic exchanges.

Switzerland hasn't been there 1,500 years yet. But yeah, northern
Italy has bordered on Switzerland and Austria since before ny of them
existed as nations. Blonde Italians, especially in the north, aren't
at all unusual.

The popular American image of Italians as swarthy and black-haired
largely results from the fact that most early Italian immigrants to
the U.S. came from Sicily or Naples.