Discussion:
"Defend the Cuban Revolution" (The Militant / Editorial)
(demasiado antiguo para responder)
Barry Schier
2005-12-18 08:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Defend the Cuban Revolution



Preview of editorial to appear in The Militant Vol. 69/No. 50
December 26, 2005 issue
(http://www.themilitant.com)

January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba. For nearly five decades, the working people of
Cuba and their communist leadership have not only defended their state
power, but have placed it at the service of working people around the
world. That internationalist course is at the heart of how the Cuban
Revolution has been able to stand up to decades of U.S. assaults and
threats.
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.

The 15-year struggle was marked by the definitive defeat of the
apartheid troops in the battle of Cuito Cuanavale in 1988. Cuban blood
has also been shed backing struggles against imperialist aggression
throughout Africa-and many other parts of the world. The Militant is
publishing articles and a recent speech by Cuban president Fidel Castro
to help explain the truth about that history, which is still being
told.

Today, tens of thousands of Cuban doctors, teachers, and other
volunteers are working in many countries in Africa, Latin America, and
Asia-and Cuba even offered to send doctors to the United States to
meet the needs of tens of thousands in the Gulf Coast after Hurricane
Katrina. From the Central African country of Equatorial Guinea to
Venezuela, Cuban medical volunteers are not only providing badly needed
health care, often in working-class neighborhoods and isolated rural
areas where other doctors will not go. Even more important, they are
training youth from those countries as doctors and other specialists to
strengthen the medical services there.

By contrast, the imperialist powers in Washington, London, and across
Europe continue to engage in the so-called "brain drain," enticing
doctors and other professionals throughout Africa, Asia, and Latin
America to leave their countries in hopes of securing higher
salaries-one more form of imperialist robbery.

How is it that thousands of Cuban volunteers serve abroad and provide
competent assistance, asking for nothing in return? It is Cuba's
socialist revolution that makes this possible. Cuba has a consistent
record of internationalism-from sending troops in 1963 to help defend
newly independent Algeria to its support for literacy and medical
programs in Venezuela today-a stance that has earned it the hatred
and fear of Washington and the U.S. billionaire families it represents.
Because of this record, there is every reason to believe that
revolutionary Cuba today would respond to any request to defend a
fellow nation's sovereignty and social gains in face of imperialist
threats.

The Cuban Revolution is a living example of what workers and farmers
can do when they are organized and take state power, ending capitalist
rule and building a society based on the needs of the vast majority.
Today, in face of a world of increasing economic devastation,
imperialist war, and capitalist brutality, the course taken by the
Cuban people points the road forward for workers and farmers in this
country and around the world.

We join with working people throughout the world in welcoming in the
New Year with a renewed commitment to defend the Cuban Revolution. End
the U.S. embargo! Abolish travel restrictions! Normalize relations with
Cuba!
l***@aol.com
2005-12-18 11:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Herr Barry, what Cuban revolution ? If you mean Herr Castro's, that
ended the day he arrived at Columbia.
Barry Schier
2005-12-18 23:56:31 UTC
Permalink
"What Cuban revolution?" In case you were unaware of wht your gusano
friends have been ranting about for almost 47 years. it's that
revolution that installed a revolutionary government which implemented
a thoroughgoing agrarian reform, kicked out foreign (especially Yankee)
imperialism, launched a massive literacy drive (which cut illiteracy
from 22%-44% to 2%-4%, mostly during its first year) and then later led
socialism and a tremendous diminishment in socioeconomic, racial, and
gender inequalities.

Re "the day he [Castro] arrived at Columbia": Both times that Fidel
Castro came to Harlem, and was met by throngs of cheering individuals
(and a few hundred almost entire white or "light"-skinned gusano
protesters separated from those crowds) he never arrived at Columbia.
The massive rally the last time was a church a half-kilometer east of
Columbia University. Prior to it being torn down, the Hotel Theresa
(i.e., the hotel in which Malcolm X arranged for Fidel and the Cuban
delegation to stay during their 1960 when the "central" Manhattan hotel
which the Cubans had booked refused to provide the multiracial Cuban
delegation service with dignity) was 1 kilometer east of Columbia.

-- Barry Schier
Bob
2005-12-19 08:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"What Cuban revolution?" In case you were unaware of wht your gusano
friends have been ranting about for almost 47 years. it's that
revolution that installed a revolutionary government which implemented
a thoroughgoing agrarian reform, kicked out foreign (especially Yankee)
imperialism, launched a massive literacy drive (which cut illiteracy
from 22%-44% to 2%-4%, mostly during its first year) and then later led
socialism and a tremendous diminishment in socioeconomic, racial, and
gender inequalities.
Barry! Morales won! Looks like he barely scraped by with 51%! Whoa! What
do you think of Morales, comrade?
l***@aol.com
2005-12-19 12:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Dear Herr Schier, I see you have no idea what Columbia I speak of. But
then that is the problem with Nazi followers of the Cuban tyrant, they
just babble incesantly about "revolutions" without realizing the truth
of the matter.
As for the revolution, the one that Herr Castro sequestered, it ended
the day he became the tyrant, stepping on the grounds of Columbia. .
The real revolution, which included more than just Herr Castro's group,
tumbled Batista down but did not last long since the Nazi did away with
it as soon as he could. Remember his stance about returning to the 40's
constitution ? What happened to that ?
KRP
2005-12-19 13:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"What Cuban revolution?" In case you were unaware of wht your gusano
friends have been ranting about for almost 47 years. it's that
revolution that installed a revolutionary government which implemented
a thoroughgoing agrarian reform, kicked out foreign (especially Yankee)
imperialism, launched a massive literacy drive (which cut illiteracy
from 22%-44% to 2%-4%, mostly during its first year) and then later led
socialism and a tremendous diminishment in socioeconomic, racial, and
gender inequalities.
Horse shit Barry How come the vast majority of people - that's PEOPLE
Barry, in Cuban prisons are black? FAR beyond their representtaive portion
of the population. By the way they are the majority Barry in Cuba, and if
you count those part African - the VAST majority. How come the VAST MAJORITY
of the "leaders" in Cuba are WHITE? Equality? Kiss my ass! What good is
literacy if you have nothing to read? What good is literacy if you can
always hear only ONE SIDE of an issue? What good is literacy when you
cannot say what you want? What you are speaking about Barry is half baked
intellectual masturbation.
Post by Barry Schier
Re "the day he [Castro] arrived at Columbia": Both times that Fidel
Castro came to Harlem, and was met by throngs of cheering individuals
(and a few hundred almost entire white or "light"-skinned gusano
protesters separated from those crowds) he never arrived at Columbia.
The massive rally the last time was a church a half-kilometer east of
Columbia University. Prior to it being torn down, the Hotel Theresa
(i.e., the hotel in which Malcolm X arranged for Fidel and the Cuban
delegation to stay during their 1960 when the "central" Manhattan hotel
which the Cubans had booked refused to provide the multiracial Cuban
delegation service with dignity) was 1 kilometer east of Columbia.
Barry TRY to use your head just a little Cheering throngs mean nothing.
ZERO! Remember Hitler had "cheering throngs" too. As did Stalin. As did
Saddam Hussein. And, Barry, suck on this one - AS DID THE CRIMINAL BATISTA!
Save your SIMPLISTIC mindless drivel for the unwashed masses Barry. You can
get MASSES to do almost anything for a time.
Bully
2005-12-22 14:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"What Cuban revolution?" In case you were unaware of wht your gusano
friends have been ranting about for almost 47 years. it's that
revolution that installed a revolutionary government which implemented
a thoroughgoing agrarian reform, kicked out foreign (especially Yankee)
imperialism, launched a massive literacy drive (which cut illiteracy
from 22%-44% to 2%-4%, mostly during its first year) and then later led
socialism and a tremendous diminishment in socioeconomic, racial, and
gender inequalities.
Sure! Now everyone in Cuba is equally miserable and poor and scared to
speak out. According to Marx, Communism was suppose start in
industrialized countries. But, it only seems like agrarian economies
fall for or use communism as an excuse to have a revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Re "the day he [Castro] arrived at Columbia": Both times that Fidel
Castro came to Harlem, and was met by throngs of cheering individuals
(and a few hundred almost entire white or "light"-skinned gusano
protesters separated from those crowds) he never arrived at Columbia.
The massive rally the last time was a church a half-kilometer east of
Columbia University. Prior to it being torn down, the Hotel Theresa
(i.e., the hotel in which Malcolm X arranged for Fidel and the Cuban
delegation to stay during their 1960 when the "central" Manhattan hotel
which the Cubans had booked refused to provide the multiracial Cuban
delegation service with dignity) was 1 kilometer east of Columbia.
-- Barry Schier
Bob
2005-12-23 02:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bully
Post by Barry Schier
"What Cuban revolution?" In case you were unaware of wht your gusano
friends have been ranting about for almost 47 years. it's that
revolution that installed a revolutionary government which implemented
a thoroughgoing agrarian reform, kicked out foreign (especially Yankee)
imperialism, launched a massive literacy drive (which cut illiteracy
from 22%-44% to 2%-4%, mostly during its first year) and then later led
socialism and a tremendous diminishment in socioeconomic, racial, and
gender inequalities.
Sure! Now everyone in Cuba is equally miserable and poor and scared to
speak out.
They have it much better than the majority in Latin America, who
according to your analysis, must be "miserable" and "poor" too. And I
assure that in Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Colombia, Brazil,
Ecuador, Haiti and Bolivia it is definitely dangerous to speak out!
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.

According to Marx, Communism was suppose start in
Post by Bully
industrialized countries. But, it only seems like agrarian economies
fall for or use communism as an excuse to have a revolution.
Depends if you read Mao or not. Read Mao. He differs radically on this
question. Marx is not a God. Agrarian economies are usually more likely
to be feudalist or semi-feudalist due to the nature of capitalist land
tenure. Feudalism and semi-feudalism leads to Leftism, socialism, and
Communism! Often Maoism. Or at least extremely bloody peasant
rebellions. Peasants were rebelling centuries before Marx was born and
will continue to do so.
KRP
2005-12-23 10:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bully
Sure! Now everyone in Cuba is equally miserable and poor and scared to
speak out.
They have it much better than the majority in Latin America, who according
to your analysis, must be "miserable" and "poor" too. And I assure that in
Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Colombia, Brazil, Ecuador, Haiti and
Bolivia it is definitely dangerous to speak out! Capitalist death squads
kill far more every year in the Americas than Castro has in the last 25
years.
Most of Latin America IS extremely poor Bob. Much of it is also
miserable. The sad reality of Latin America is that you have your choice of
TWO on the table. A right wing dictatorship OR a left wing dictatorship.
Left wing death squads are no easier. But as miserable as it may be in some
of those countries - they still do manage to have a middle class.
Cuba no longer has one. One would ahve thought that the IDEA of the
revolution was to bring UP the standard of life for the poor - not just make
EVERYONE equally as miserable as the poorest of the very poorest Cubans
before the revolution. The wealthy fled Cuba. The middle class was
impoverished for the "ruling class elite." Who liove quite well, by the
way.
According to Marx, Communism was suppose start in
Post by Bully
industrialized countries. But, it only seems like agrarian economies fall
for or use communism as an excuse to have a revolution.
Depends if you read Mao or not. Read Mao. He differs radically on this
question. Marx is not a God. Agrarian economies are usually more likely to
be feudalist or semi-feudalist due to the nature of capitalist land
tenure. Feudalism and semi-feudalism leads to Leftism, socialism, and
Communism! Often Maoism. Or at least extremely bloody peasant rebellions.
Peasants were rebelling centuries before Marx was born and will continue
to do so.
Agrarian economies, Bob, fell easy prey because the rural poor were
UN-educated and fell easy prey to snake oil merchants who made them false
promises. Cuba is a perfect study of this. (Yes Cuba now has near universal
literacy for all the good it does.)

The "promise" of the revolution was an improved living state for the
poor. Those "peasants" today are in actually worse economic situations than
they were before the revolution - not much worse off, but much less food.
They can read, so long as they only read government propaganda. They are in
no better shape to make an intelligent evaluation of their circumstances
than their great grandfathers were. They can read, but reading alone isn't
the trick here. It is in understanding what you read, being able to sort out
the bullshit from what you are fed. That they are NEVER taught. They are
taught blind faith in the system. LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!

All of this crap is worthless without FREEDOM!
Bob
2005-12-24 12:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bully
Sure! Now everyone in Cuba is equally miserable and poor and scared to
speak out.
They have it much better than the majority in Latin America, who according
to your analysis, must be "miserable" and "poor" too. And I assure that in
Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Colombia, Brazil, Ecuador, Haiti and
Bolivia it is definitely dangerous to speak out! Capitalist death squads
kill far more every year in the Americas than Castro has in the last 25
years.
Most of Latin America IS extremely poor Bob. Much of it is also
miserable. The sad reality of Latin America is that you have your choice of
TWO on the table. A right wing dictatorship OR a left wing dictatorship.
Probably. In that case, I say pick the leftwing dictatorship.
Post by KRP
Left wing death squads are no easier. But as miserable as it may be in some
of those countries - they still do manage to have a middle class.
So?
Post by KRP
Cuba no longer has one. One would ahve thought that the IDEA of the
revolution was to bring UP the standard of life for the poor -
Cuba has done this very well.
Post by KRP
According to Marx, Communism was suppose start in
Post by Bully
industrialized countries. But, it only seems like agrarian economies fall
for or use communism as an excuse to have a revolution.
Depends if you read Mao or not. Read Mao. He differs radically on this
question. Marx is not a God. Agrarian economies are usually more likely to
be feudalist or semi-feudalist due to the nature of capitalist land
tenure. Feudalism and semi-feudalism leads to Leftism, socialism, and
Communism! Often Maoism. Or at least extremely bloody peasant rebellions.
Peasants were rebelling centuries before Marx was born and will continue
to do so.
Agrarian economies, Bob, fell easy prey because the rural poor were
UN-educated and fell easy prey to snake oil merchants who made them false
promises. Cuba is a perfect study of this. (Yes Cuba now has near universal
literacy for all the good it does.)
No, it is because in every case, they were being savagely abused in
feudalist or semi-feudalist conditions by utterly evil feudalist lords
and warlords. It's so shitty that Communism sells quite well, basically
offering to take power and kill or displace the feudal lords. Serfs have
been rebelling against their lords for many centuries, and these peasant
rebellions kill many of the feudal lords and their helpers. Communism is
just the 20th century version.
Post by KRP
The "promise" of the revolution was an improved living state for the
poor. Those "peasants" today are in actually worse economic situations than
they were before the revolution - not much worse off, but much less food.
Well in USSR and China life expectancy was DOUBLED in a short period,
surely that is an improved living state! Furthermore, both countries had
an incredible record of economic and even agricultural growth for
decades. At some point the Soviet system bogged down into stagnation,
but still we must note that the USSR took a worthless 3rd world feudal
backwater and developed it into the 2nd most powerful nation on Earth in
a brief period of time. Amazing!
Post by KRP
They can read, so long as they only read government propaganda. They are in
no better shape to make an intelligent evaluation of their circumstances
than their great grandfathers were. They can read, but reading alone isn't
the trick here. It is in understanding what you read, being able to sort out
the bullshit from what you are fed. That they are NEVER taught. They are
taught blind faith in the system. LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!
Really? How did the E Europeans ever rebel, then?
Post by KRP
All of this crap is worthless without FREEDOM!
No, I take life and longevity over freedom.
PL
2005-12-24 12:22:01 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:dojdpk$fvl$***@pita.alt.net...
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
All of this crap is worthless without FREEDOM!
No, I take life and longevity over freedom.
Both can go together.
The difference between free states and communists dictatorships is best
illustrated by the comparison in development between Western European
democracies and Eastern European communist dictatorships (and the mess they
left).
Holland, Belgium, Norway, ... beat all ex and curren t communist states
easily.
That, comrade Bob, is reality.
"Freedom and longevity" go together and the records of countries that have
been free for the longest time prove that.

PL
Bob
2005-12-24 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
All of this crap is worthless without FREEDOM!
No, I take life and longevity over freedom.
Both can go together.
The difference between free states and communists dictatorships is best
illustrated by the comparison in development between Western European
democracies and Eastern European communist dictatorships (and the mess they
left).
What's insane about you is that you defend social democracy in Europe
but then every tiniest effort towards social democracy in the Americas
is ferociously condemned by you as "Communism".
Post by PL
Holland, Belgium, Norway, ... beat all ex and curren t communist states
easily.
True. They also beat the US, for that matter.

You do not make sense. Why do you support SD in Europe, but rabidly
oppose it in the Americas. NUTS!
Post by PL
That, comrade Bob, is reality.
Yes.
Post by PL
"Freedom and longevity" go together and the records of countries that have
been free for the longest time prove that.
In many parts of the world, the oligarchy is so backwards and evil that
it is not possible to have a democracy that would elect a European style
SD. Therefore, in those cases, the masses must overthrow the army of the
oligarchy, destroy the oligarchy (wipe it off the face of the Earth) and
then institute their program.
PL
2005-12-24 17:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
All of this crap is worthless without FREEDOM!
No, I take life and longevity over freedom.
Both can go together.
The difference between free states and communists dictatorships is best
illustrated by the comparison in development between Western European
democracies and Eastern European communist dictatorships (and the mess
they left).
What's insane about you is that you defend social democracy in Europe but
then every tiniest effort towards social democracy in the Americas is
ferociously condemned by you as "Communism".
Nope.
I support democracy in all it's forms anywhere.
I reject totalitarian regimes everywhere.
Social democracy isn't presebnt in Cuba and is under threat in lots of other
countries.
Castro is a dictator that represses freedom of speech, ...
That is what I do NOT want for ANYONE anywhere.
No dictators. No abusive moronic popularists that take countries in to
dictatorships.
Freedom and social / christian democracy with a mixed system that respects
human rights EVERYWHERE.
Post by PL
Holland, Belgium, Norway, ... beat all ex and curren t communist states
easily.
True. They also beat the US, for that matter.
So democracy beat Stalinism by far.
My point.
You do not make sense. Why do you support SD in Europe, but rabidly oppose
it in the Americas. NUTS!
I don't.
I oppose dictatorships (communist or other) everywhere.
Post by PL
That, comrade Bob, is reality.
Yes.
Post by PL
"Freedom and longevity" go together and the records of countries that
have been free for the longest time prove that.
In many parts of the world, the oligarchy is so backwards (snip)
So why do you support a system in which a "new oligarchy" is entrenched to
such an extent that the people lose all popwer to eject them?

PL
Bob
2005-12-31 08:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
All of this crap is worthless without FREEDOM!
No, I take life and longevity over freedom.
Both can go together.
The difference between free states and communists dictatorships is best
illustrated by the comparison in development between Western European
democracies and Eastern European communist dictatorships (and the mess
they left).
What's insane about you is that you defend social democracy in Europe but
then every tiniest effort towards social democracy in the Americas is
ferociously condemned by you as "Communism".
Nope.
I support democracy in all it's forms anywhere.
No you don't. You opposed the Guatemalan regime in 1954, the
Sandinistas, Aristide, Chavez and now Morales. If anyone even slightly
liberal comes to power in Latin America, you call him a Communist
dictator, just the idiot imperialist media.
Post by PL
I reject totalitarian regimes everywhere.
No, you always support all rightwing regimes in the Americas, especially
the death squad democracies. And you are very sympathetic to the fascist
and homicidal Right that overthrew Arbenz, Aristide, Allende and Ortega
and plots to overthrow Chavez and Castro. In the Americas, you never met
a fascist you didn't love.
Post by PL
Social democracy isn't presebnt in Cuba and is under threat in lots of other
countries.
It *does not exist* in the Americas, in any way, really. There is a bit
of it in Chile, Uruguay and Argentina (last vestiges in the last two)
and yes, in Costa Rica, where it has been constantly under full-on
attack by the fascist Right in the Americas US imperialism, both of
which you support 100%.
Post by PL
Castro is a dictator that represses freedom of speech, ...
That is what I do NOT want for ANYONE anywhere.
I understand your hatred for Castro and his regime. But the way you
extrapolate that off to Arbenz, Aristide, Morales, Chavez and Allende is
extremely disturbing. Plus I never heard one word from you against the
Death Squad Fascist Right that runs the Americas.
Post by PL
No dictators.
Yes but you support "death squad democracies" like in Colombia, Panama,
Ecuador, Honduras, Guatemala and Haiti.

No abusive moronic popularists that take countries in to
Post by PL
dictatorships.
That's the issue here. No populists.
Post by PL
Freedom and social / christian democracy with a mixed system that respects
human rights EVERYWHERE.
Fact is, social democracy barely exists in the Americas. Lula is
supposedly a socialist. Chile is supposedly led by socialists. Alan
Garcia of Peru was a reputed socialist. These socialists, in general,
*did absolutely fuck-all NOTHING about the horrible problems of poverty
and imperialism in the Americas*.

In fact, Lula and the Chilean regime are currently providing armed
support for the fascist Right dictatorship that took over Haiti 2 years
ago, and HAS SINCE KILLED 3,000 PEOPLE, without a single peep from you,
other than quiet support. 3,000 in 2 years is a hell of a lot more than
Castro has killed in last 25 years, yet you rant on and about when
Castro blew one gusano out of air over the ocean quite a few years ago.

You are an extremely confused cruise missile liberal.

I would like to point out that the Sandinistas who you despised so much
were almost universally support for social democratic governments in
Europe. Furthermore, a number of these governments have even sympathized
with the FARC.
Post by PL
Post by PL
Holland, Belgium, Norway, ... beat all ex and curren t communist states
easily.
True. They also beat the US, for that matter.
So democracy beat Stalinism by far.
My point.
Actually, Stalin beat democracy because he doubled life expectancy in
the USSR by 1950, something which *not one capitalist state on Earth has
yet been able to do*.
Post by PL
You do not make sense. Why do you support SD in Europe, but rabidly oppose
it in the Americas. NUTS!
I don't.
I oppose dictatorships (communist or other) everywhere.
You are a cruise missile liberal who waves the flag of imperialism and
thinks the New York and LA Times are "liberal". You read Time Magazine
and worship their prose.
Post by PL
Post by PL
That, comrade Bob, is reality.
Yes.
Post by PL
"Freedom and longevity" go together and the records of countries that
have been free for the longest time prove that.
Really? Why has no one beaten Stalin's record yet? Wait! Someone did!
Mao beat it in 1979! Hmmmmm.
Post by PL
In many parts of the world, the oligarchy is so backwards (snip)
So why do you support a system in which a "new oligarchy" is entrenched to
such an extent that the people lose all popwer to eject them?>
Hopefully that would not be the case. Anyway, calling the Communist
upper echelons a "ruling class" is rather preposterous. So, does that 5%
of the Communist country own 90% of the wealth or what?
PL
2005-12-23 12:09:43 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:dofloq$2s1$***@pita.alt.net...
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
As has been shown in other threads that is absurdly low.
Castro is firmly on the list of Genocide Watchfor killing thousands of
people.
See:
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2005.htm
Recent estimates are well above 100,000.

By the way: tha fact that one dictator kills people is in no way an "excuse"
for another to do so.

PL
Bob
2005-12-23 14:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years, only a few people have been killed by the Cuban
state. A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that
happens in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A
boat full of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6
yrs ago. 3 or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years,
Cuba killed maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police
brutality.

specially if we include violence in prisons and jails, most capitalist
states in the Americas kill at a much higher rate than that.
Furthermore, if we note the life expectancy of the capitalist states, we
can say that every capitalist state down there is basically a killer,
based on their lower life expectancy. That is why I refer to Fidel
Castro's philosophy as "No Greater Love..."
Post by PL
As has been shown in other threads that is absurdly low.
Castro is firmly on the list of Genocide Watchfor killing thousands of
people.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2005.htm
Recent estimates are well above 100,000.
That sounds really crazy, but as noted, I believe that 10,000 or so were
executed, mostly in the 1960's.
Post by PL
By the way: tha fact that one dictator kills people is in no way an "excuse"
for another to do so.
I have just shown in this post that Castro kills people at a far lower
rate than the capitalist states of the Americas. Now argue with that.
PL
2005-12-23 15:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
By the way:
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
Post by Bob
only a few people have been killed by the Cuban state.
Not according to the latetst estimates, but they take in to account all
those deaths you want to ignore.
Post by Bob
A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that happens
in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A boat full
of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6 yrs ago. 3
or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years, Cuba killed
maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police brutality.
and all those that died on the "13 de marzo"?
How about all those that died at sea fleeing the dictator?

(snip^
Post by Bob
That is why I refer to Fidel Castro's philosophy as "No Greater Love..."
for power, yes.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
As has been shown in other threads that is absurdly low.
Castro is firmly on the list of Genocide Watchfor killing thousands of
people.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2005.htm
Recent estimates are well above 100,000.
That sounds really crazy, but as noted, I believe that 10,000 or so were
executed, mostly in the 1960's.
Then you "believe" wrong;
Post by Bob
Post by PL
By the way: tha fact that one dictator kills people is in no way an
"excuse" for another to do so.
I have just shown in this post that Castro kills people at a far lower
rate than the capitalist states of the Americas. Now argue with that.
Don't have to as you havn't shown anthing.
You have stated your (communist) dogma, but have not produced any proof from
any sources whatsoever (as usual).

PL
Bob
2005-12-24 00:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
Post by Bob
only a few people have been killed by the Cuban state.
Not according to the latetst estimates, but they take in to account all
those deaths you want to ignore.
Post by Bob
A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that happens
in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A boat full
of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6 yrs ago. 3
or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years, Cuba killed
maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police brutality.
and all those that died on the "13 de marzo"?
That's 20-30 right? I noted that above. Read.
Post by PL
How about all those that died at sea fleeing the dictator?
THEY DO NOT COUNT.
PL
2005-12-24 11:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
Post by Bob
only a few people have been killed by the Cuban state.
Not according to the latetst estimates, but they take in to account all
those deaths you want to ignore.
Post by Bob
A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that happens
in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A boat
full of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6 yrs
ago. 3 or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years, Cuba
killed maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police
brutality.
and all those that died on the "13 de marzo"?
That's 20-30 right? I noted that above. Read.
at least 35 according the AI (including children as young as 6 months).
http://www.cubaverdad.net/13_de_marzo.htm
Post by Bob
Post by PL
How about all those that died at sea fleeing the dictator?
THEY DO NOT COUNT.
In your dogmatic view maybe not. To me ALL victims count
But like the Vietnames boat people and those killed in the mine fields of
the "killing fields" of Cambodia they died because of the dictator and its
policy limiting freedom of movement on top of his dictatorial regime within
the country.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

PL
Bob
2005-12-24 11:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of
all his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956. Even
during the late thirties with all the horrible killings, Stalin was
still saving a net 2 million lives per year. Stalin was killing a lot of
people, but he was saving so many more.
Post by PL
Post by Bob
only a few people have been killed by the Cuban state.
Not according to the latetst estimates, but they take in to account all
those deaths you want to ignore.
The latest estimates seem to have nothing to say about the period
1980-present AFAICT.
PL
2005-12-24 11:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of all
his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)

So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
More likely millions less.
Get real.
This really shows what you are about comrade Bob.

PL
Bob
2005-12-24 16:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of all
his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)
So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
Well taking death rates in 1913 and then comparing death rates from
1935-1940 and then from 1945-56, yes. The decrease in the death rate was
so extreme. They doubled life expectancy very quickly. He also killed a
lot of ppl, but the benefits of increased life expectancy outweighed that.
Post by PL
More likely millions less.
Dunno. He was a killer and also a major humanitarian at the same time.
PL
2005-12-24 17:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas
than Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of
all his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)
So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
Well taking death rates in 1913 and then comparing death rates from
1935-1940 and then from 1945-56, yes.
(snip)

Compare that decrease with other countries.
Your mute point is that only in the SU the rate changed.
In fact it was a world wide change that reflected all kinds of (non SU
innovations) like antibiotics, ...
Your "case" is moronic.
Without Stalin millions of people more would have lived.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
More likely millions less.
Dunno. He was a killer and also a major humanitarian at the same time.
Nope.
he was a killer that rode with the times but stayed behind.
Just compare advanced between France, Belgium and Germany with Russia.

PL
Bob
2005-12-25 07:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas
than Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of
all his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)
So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
Well taking death rates in 1913 and then comparing death rates from
1935-1940 and then from 1945-56, yes.
(snip)
Compare that decrease with other countries.
You do it, as it is your challenge, not mine. Start googling.
Post by PL
Your mute point is that only in the SU the rate changed.
Nope, but many parts of the world saw little benefit from these advances
and in Russia the chances of saving those lives without getting rid of
feudalism via violence were virtually nil.
Post by PL
In fact it was a world wide change that reflected all kinds of (non SU
innovations) like antibiotics, ...
Only after 1945. How was he saving 2 million lives/yr from 1935-1940?

Why did China, or Africa, or Latin America, or most of Asia, not see
these benefits by 1948?
Post by PL
Your "case" is moronic.
Without Stalin millions of people more would have lived.
Well some would have but many others would have died. But I don;t
support all his killing.
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
More likely millions less.
Dunno. He was a killer and also a major humanitarian at the same time.
Nope.
he was a killer that rode with the times but stayed behind.
Just compare advanced between France, Belgium and Germany with Russia.
France, Belgium and Germany did not have a fascist, feudalist,
backwards, genocidal, ultraright feudal oligarchy with a death grip on
the nation. Therefore, socialist democracy was an option. However, I
point out that Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal, and Eastern Europe
did not start to advance until there was a huge massacre of the
reactionaries, fascists and feudalists during WW2. The Anti-Fascist War
exterminated millions of reactionaries in Europe, discredited the rest
and took the wind out of feudalist and fascist reaction in that place.

The fascists and feudalists in general were decimated. If they survived,
they often lost most of their property as it was destroyed by the
Allies. After the war, with fascism/feudalism reeling, most countries
passed major land reforms and progressive legislation. So, the Europeans
had to kill millions too to get their good health figures.
PL
2005-12-26 17:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas
than Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of
all his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)
So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
Well taking death rates in 1913 and then comparing death rates from
1935-1940 and then from 1945-56, yes.
(snip)
Compare that decrease with other countries.
You do it, as it is your challenge, not mine.
It is your claim.
Prove it.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Your mute point is that only in the SU the rate changed.
Nope, but many parts of the world saw little benefit from these advances
(snip)

and again no proof as usual.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
In fact it was a world wide change that reflected all kinds of (non SU
innovations) like antibiotics, ...
Only after 1945. How was he saving 2 million lives/yr from 1935-1940?
He didn't.
That is your unsibstantiated claim.
Post by Bob
Why did China, or Africa, or Latin America, or most of Asia, not see these
benefits by 1948?
gain: your empty claim.
No proof as susual.
You are bullshitting.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Your "case" is moronic.
Without Stalin millions of people more would have lived.
Well some would have but many others would have died. But I don;t support
all his killing.
So without his killings more would have lived, no?
That is the point.
Get it?
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
More likely millions less.
Dunno. He was a killer and also a major humanitarian at the same time.
Nope.
he was a killer that rode with the times but stayed behind.
Just compare advanced between France, Belgium and Germany with Russia.
France, Belgium and Germany did not have a fascist, feudalist, backwards,
genocidal, ultraright feudal oligarchy with a death grip on the nation.
(snip)

Read up.
They had capitalist societies.
In no way you can even try to argue against the fact that the Western
European model (including the abusive doctaorship in Spain) outperformed you
moronic genocidal maniac: Stalin.

PL
Bob
2005-12-30 09:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas
than Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of
all his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)
So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
Well taking death rates in 1913 and then comparing death rates from
1935-1940 and then from 1945-56, yes.
(snip)
Compare that decrease with other countries.
You do it, as it is your challenge, not mine.
It is your claim.
Prove it.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Your mute point is that only in the SU the rate changed.
Nope, but many parts of the world saw little benefit from these advances
(snip)
and again no proof as usual.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
In fact it was a world wide change that reflected all kinds of (non SU
innovations) like antibiotics, ...
Only after 1945. How was he saving 2 million lives/yr from 1935-1940?
He didn't.
That is your unsibstantiated claim.
Post by Bob
Why did China, or Africa, or Latin America, or most of Asia, not see these
benefits by 1948?
gain: your empty claim.
No proof as susual.
You are bullshitting.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Your "case" is moronic.
Without Stalin millions of people more would have lived.
Well some would have but many others would have died. But I don;t support
all his killing.
So without his killings more would have lived, no?
Yes.
Post by PL
That is the point.
Get it?
No, because any non-Communist alternative to Stalin probably hot have
been saving nearly as many lives as he was every year. Russia was living
under feudalism, and that could only be destroyed by a radical
revolution. Without such a revolution, Russia would have been feudal
until 1945.
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
More likely millions less.
Dunno. He was a killer and also a major humanitarian at the same time.
Nope.
he was a killer that rode with the times but stayed behind.
Just compare advanced between France, Belgium and Germany with Russia.
France, Belgium and Germany did not have a fascist, feudalist, backwards,
genocidal, ultraright feudal oligarchy with a death grip on the nation.
(snip)
Read up.
They had capitalist societies.
In no way you can even try to argue against the fact that the Western
European model (including the abusive doctaorship in Spain) outperformed you
moronic genocidal maniac: Stalin.
Fact is: the only reason Europe got decent societies at all was through
*the total and complete destruction of the fascist, reactionary and
feudal elements in their societies. From 1939-1945, over 10 MILLION
fascist, reactionary and feudal elements were *exterminated* in Europe
in a massive bloodbath. Further, the fascist, reactionary and feudal
elements also lost almost all of their property, were thoroughly and
humiliatingly defeated by massive anti-fascist armies (including
millions of Communist fighters. The fascist, reactionary and feudal
elements were also totally and thoroughly *discredited* by patriotic
elements of society and whatever support they had with workers, peasants
and middle classes were smashed into the dirt.

It's true that the fascist, reactionary and feudal elements tried to
reconstitute somewhat after the war (in Italy and Greece) but even in
Greece, huge numbers of fascist, reactionary and feudal elements were
slaughtered a bloody revolution. The fascists won, but they were badly
bled.

Also, in much of Europe, massive social programs were put into place to
"ward off the Communist threat". So, we can see that the *only reason
Europe developed social democracy was either to ward off the armed
Communist threat or as a consequence of a horrible slaughter of the
ruling class elements.

In France, a decent society came from the French Revolution, where the
royalty and ruling classes were horribly bled.

In Mexico, the same thing. 10-15 million died 1910-1920, including maybe
10 million oligarchs and their supporters.

Achieving a just society without major bloodshed is a nice idea, but it
doesn't usually work that way.
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2005-12-30 14:37:19 UTC
Permalink
go to GOOGLE and search : DEMOCIDIO O GENOCIDIO, BY PROF. RUMMEL
and...then you all would see how many people , humans beings were killed by
the totalitarians mother fuckers...!

YESSSSSSS !!!!!
MOTHER FUCKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO NAME THESE DICTATORS.


Steven Spielberg's Munich, or Cinematic Screwing with History


Steven Spielberg's Munich
or Cinematic Screwing with History
Posted by Myles Kantor
http://antiprotester.blogspot.com/2005/12/spielbergs-munichscrewing-with-history.html

The Untouchables is among my favorite movies. Written by the often
ass-kicking David Mamet, it's entertaining as hell and has great lines like
Sean Connery's "Enough of this running shit!" after chasing a suspect.

The Untouchables is also a case of cinematic screwing with history. To give
one example, the movie has Eliot Ness throwing Al Capone's lieutenant Frank
Nitti off a building during Capone's trial for tax evasion in 1931. In
reality, Nitti killed himself in 1943.

Compared with the distortions of reality in Steven Spielberg's Munich, those
in The Untouchables are trivial.

Like The Untouchables, I expect Munich to be very entertaining, which makes
it that much more subversive of historical understanding. Journalist Aaron
Klein, author of the new book Striking Back: The 1972 Munich Olympics
Massacre and Israel's Deadly Response, describes Munich as "full of
distortions and flights of fancy." One of the screenwriters is leftist
playwright Tony Kushner, who has called Israel's creation "a mistake."

Moreover, the moral outlook of Munich seems vile. The father of murdered
journalist Daniel Pearl saw an advance screening and refers to, "attempts in
the film to stretch common sense by drawing symmetries between the
terrorists and their pursuers. Since violence leads to more violence, so the
film's logic goes, it must be that all acts of violence are somehow morally
equivalent. Succumbing to this viewpoint, Avner [the Mossad protagonist]
begins to find patterns of symmetry between the violence he engineers and
the one perpetrated in Munich."

This is as ridiculous as it is repugnant. (Anyone who has interacted with
Israelis will get the ridiculous part.)

Millions of people will see Munich and be entertained into belief of its
content. That a Jewish director and Jewish screenwriters are responsible for
this grave misrepresentation is another instance of the Jewish tendency
toward self-destruction (e.g., Israeli governments that have released
thousands of terrorists), or what Dr. Kenneth Levin calls "The Oslo
Syndrome."
Posted by Myles Kantor

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scanned by Norton Internet Security Professional.
Distributed by
Chachi Novellas-Bengochea
Delray Beach, Florida U.S.A.
FOR FREEDOM-JUSTICE GROUP
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ForFreedom-Justice
"Live-Free-or-Die"
"...one nation UNDER GOD" "IN GOD WE TRUST"
--
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html

http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org

Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf
http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma
http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas
than Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years,
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of
all his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956.
(snip)
So you claim that without Stalin 25 million more would have died?
Well taking death rates in 1913 and then comparing death rates from
1935-1940 and then from 1945-56, yes.
(snip)
Compare that decrease with other countries.
You do it, as it is your challenge, not mine.
It is your claim.
Prove it.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Your mute point is that only in the SU the rate changed.
Nope, but many parts of the world saw little benefit from these advances
(snip)
and again no proof as usual.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
In fact it was a world wide change that reflected all kinds of (non SU
innovations) like antibiotics, ...
Only after 1945. How was he saving 2 million lives/yr from 1935-1940?
He didn't.
That is your unsibstantiated claim.
Post by Bob
Why did China, or Africa, or Latin America, or most of Asia, not see these
benefits by 1948?
gain: your empty claim.
No proof as susual.
You are bullshitting.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Your "case" is moronic.
Without Stalin millions of people more would have lived.
Well some would have but many others would have died. But I don;t support
all his killing.
So without his killings more would have lived, no?
Yes.
Post by PL
That is the point.
Get it?
No, because any non-Communist alternative to Stalin probably hot have
been saving nearly as many lives as he was every year. Russia was living
under feudalism, and that could only be destroyed by a radical
revolution. Without such a revolution, Russia would have been feudal
until 1945.
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
More likely millions less.
Dunno. He was a killer and also a major humanitarian at the same time.
Nope.
he was a killer that rode with the times but stayed behind.
Just compare advanced between France, Belgium and Germany with Russia.
France, Belgium and Germany did not have a fascist, feudalist, backwards,
genocidal, ultraright feudal oligarchy with a death grip on the nation.
(snip)
Read up.
They had capitalist societies.
In no way you can even try to argue against the fact that the Western
European model (including the abusive doctaorship in Spain) outperformed you
moronic genocidal maniac: Stalin.
Fact is: the only reason Europe got decent societies at all was through
*the total and complete destruction of the fascist, reactionary and
feudal elements in their societies. From 1939-1945, over 10 MILLION
fascist, reactionary and feudal elements were *exterminated* in Europe
in a massive bloodbath. Further, the fascist, reactionary and feudal
elements also lost almost all of their property, were thoroughly and
humiliatingly defeated by massive anti-fascist armies (including
millions of Communist fighters. The fascist, reactionary and feudal
elements were also totally and thoroughly *discredited* by patriotic
elements of society and whatever support they had with workers, peasants
and middle classes were smashed into the dirt.

It's true that the fascist, reactionary and feudal elements tried to
reconstitute somewhat after the war (in Italy and Greece) but even in
Greece, huge numbers of fascist, reactionary and feudal elements were
slaughtered a bloody revolution. The fascists won, but they were badly
bled.

Also, in much of Europe, massive social programs were put into place to
"ward off the Communist threat". So, we can see that the *only reason
Europe developed social democracy was either to ward off the armed
Communist threat or as a consequence of a horrible slaughter of the
ruling class elements.

In France, a decent society came from the French Revolution, where the
royalty and ruling classes were horribly bled.

In Mexico, the same thing. 10-15 million died 1910-1920, including maybe
10 million oligarchs and their supporters.

Achieving a just society without major bloodshed is a nice idea, but it
doesn't usually work that way.
Bob
2005-12-31 01:49:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Post by PL
(snip)
Just compare advanced between France, Belgium and Germany with Russia.
France, Belgium and Germany did not have a fascist, feudalist, backwards,
genocidal, ultraright feudal oligarchy with a death grip on the nation.
(snip)
Read up.
They had capitalist societies.
In no way you can even try to argue against the fact that the Western
European model (including the abusive doctaorship in Spain) outperformed you
moronic genocidal maniac: Stalin.
In fact, Stalin did far better than ANY of those countries. Stalin
*doubled* Russia's life expectancy by 1950, smashing a world record. NO
COUNTRY had even doubled its life expectancy is so short a time. On that
metric, Stalin kicked W. Europe's ass.

Anyway, the only way social democracy came to power in W Europe, was
through the *complete and total destruction* (genocide if you will) of
the ruling classes, the feudalists, the monarchists, the fascists and
the rightists. The Great Anti-Fascist War was fought against these
forces, and 10-15 million rightwingers were slaughtered in that war.
With the devastation and yes genocide of the European Radical Right,
social democracy was able to come into being. If they would not have
killed all those fascist forces, it would never have happened.
KRP
2005-12-24 14:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of all
his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956. Even during
the late thirties with all the horrible killings, Stalin was still saving
a net 2 million lives per year. Stalin was killing a lot of people, but he
was saving so many more.
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and you
feel that's an offset? What of the 50 million he let starve to death?

Your math needs serious work Bob. I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
bloody history to yourself. To yourself because the rest of us see the
hypocrisy.
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism. There HAS to be a better system than either!
Bob
2005-12-24 16:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by PL
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of all
his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956. Even during
the late thirties with all the horrible killings, Stalin was still saving
a net 2 million lives per year. Stalin was killing a lot of people, but he
was saving so many more.
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and you
feel that's an offset? What of the 50 million he let starve to death?
No the number saved 1950-1956 was about 3.5-3.7 million per year.

1945-1950 was about 2.5 million saved per year.

That's about 35 million right there.

And that includes all the people Stalin killed during that period,
believe it or not.
Post by KRP
Your math needs serious work Bob.
Nope.

I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
Post by KRP
bloody history to yourself.
I don't. He killed lots of ppl, but then saved many more.
Post by KRP
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism.
No I don't. Clearly Stalin went overboard killing people.

There HAS to be a better system than either!

Maybe, but when the rightwing is too backwards to allow any progress,
you may have to defeat them, put in dictatorship and keep them down cuz
they will not allow any progressive democracy.
KRP
2005-12-25 16:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and
you feel that's an offset? What of the 50 million he let starve to death?
No the number saved 1950-1956 was about 3.5-3.7 million per year.
Try the PIRGES Bob. Come on next to Uncle Joe - Hitler was a RANK
AMATEUR for murders.
Post by Bob
1945-1950 was about 2.5 million saved per year.
That's about 35 million right there.
Oh Bullshit.
Post by Bob
And that includes all the people Stalin killed during that period, believe
it or not.
Post by KRP
Your math needs serious work Bob.
Nope.
Yep your fact checking is badly off.
Post by Bob
I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
Post by KRP
bloody history to yourself.
I don't. He killed lots of ppl, but then saved many more.
Post by KRP
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism.
No I don't. Clearly Stalin went overboard killing people.
Oh yeah that's an understatemment. But so have every other Communist
DICTATOR.
Post by Bob
There HAS to be a better system than either!
Maybe, but when the rightwing is too backwards to allow any progress, you
may have to defeat them, put in dictatorship and keep them down cuz they
will not allow any progressive democracy.
I'm not defending rightwing morons. Just not buying the swill that left
wing morons are any better. In fact IF my only two choices are a right wing
dictator or a left wing dictator, I'd have to pick the right wing guy.
Bob
2005-12-31 01:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and
you feel that's an offset? What of the 50 million he let starve to death?
No the number saved 1950-1956 was about 3.5-3.7 million per year.
Try the PIRGES Bob. Come on next to Uncle Joe - Hitler was a RANK
AMATEUR for murders.
The number saved was 3.6 million per year, even accounting for all he
killed. I am comparing raw death rates.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
1945-1950 was about 2.5 million saved per year.
That's about 35 million right there.
Oh Bullshit.
Ok fine. I will go dredge up the figures for you then. It involves
comparing death rates in USSR from 1913 to 1927-1940 and then from
1945-1956. Using those figures, we can see how many lives were saved.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
And that includes all the people Stalin killed during that period, believe
it or not.
Post by KRP
Your math needs serious work Bob.
Nope.
Yep your fact checking is badly off.
Want me to dredge up the death rates for you?
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
Post by KRP
bloody history to yourself.
I don't. He killed lots of ppl, but then saved many more.
Post by KRP
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism.
No I don't. Clearly Stalin went overboard killing people.
Oh yeah that's an understatemment. But so have every other Communist
DICTATOR.
Really? The Sandanistas, Allende, Aristide and Chavez? You say they are
Commie dictators. How many did they kill anyway?
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
There HAS to be a better system than either!
Maybe, but when the rightwing is too backwards to allow any progress, you
may have to defeat them, put in dictatorship and keep them down cuz they
will not allow any progressive democracy.
I'm not defending rightwing morons. Just not buying the swill that left
wing morons are any better. In fact IF my only two choices are a right wing
dictator or a left wing dictator, I'd have to pick the right wing guy.
Yeah I thought so. I wonder about some of you "Time Magazine liberals"
or "cruise missile liberals". Your politics is seriously confused, but I
guess that's an artifact of living in an imperialist society. You
internalize imperialism's motives and behavior as your own.
Crusader
2005-12-31 04:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and
you feel that's an offset? What of the 50 million he let starve to death?
No the number saved 1950-1956 was about 3.5-3.7 million per year.
Try the PIRGES Bob. Come on next to Uncle Joe - Hitler was a RANK
AMATEUR for murders.
The number saved was 3.6 million per year, even accounting for all he
killed. I am comparing raw death rates.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
1945-1950 was about 2.5 million saved per year.
That's about 35 million right there.
Oh Bullshit.
Ok fine. I will go dredge up the figures for you then. It involves
comparing death rates in USSR from 1913 to 1927-1940 and then from
1945-1956. Using those figures, we can see how many lives were saved.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
And that includes all the people Stalin killed during that period, believe
it or not.
Post by KRP
Your math needs serious work Bob.
Nope.
Yep your fact checking is badly off.
Want me to dredge up the death rates for you?
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
Post by KRP
bloody history to yourself.
I don't. He killed lots of ppl, but then saved many more.
Post by KRP
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism.
No I don't. Clearly Stalin went overboard killing people.
Oh yeah that's an understatemment. But so have every other Communist
DICTATOR.
Really? The Sandanistas, Allende, Aristide and Chavez? You say they are
Commie dictators. How many did they kill anyway?
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
There HAS to be a better system than either!
Maybe, but when the rightwing is too backwards to allow any progress, you
may have to defeat them, put in dictatorship and keep them down cuz they
will not allow any progressive democracy.
I'm not defending rightwing morons. Just not buying the swill that left
wing morons are any better. In fact IF my only two choices are a right wing
dictator or a left wing dictator, I'd have to pick the right wing guy.
Yeah I thought so. I wonder about some of you "Time Magazine liberals"
or "cruise missile liberals". Your politics is seriously confused, but I
guess that's an artifact of living in an imperialist society. You
internalize imperialism's motives and behavior as your own.
Miguel
2005-12-26 03:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Bob,

Your lack of logic amazes me. Stalin had to kill millions in order to
save a net 2 million? Never in my life have I heard a more idiotic
rationalization for murdering millions of human beings. I guess Hitler
must have thought the same thing. I am sure that in his mind, by
killing six million jews and five million other undesirables he was
saving Germany.
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by PL
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of all
his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956. Even during
the late thirties with all the horrible killings, Stalin was still saving
a net 2 million lives per year. Stalin was killing a lot of people, but he
was saving so many more.
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and you
feel that's an offset? What of the 50 million he let starve to death?
No the number saved 1950-1956 was about 3.5-3.7 million per year.
1945-1950 was about 2.5 million saved per year.
That's about 35 million right there.
And that includes all the people Stalin killed during that period,
believe it or not.
Post by KRP
Your math needs serious work Bob.
Nope.
I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
Post by KRP
bloody history to yourself.
I don't. He killed lots of ppl, but then saved many more.
Post by KRP
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism.
No I don't. Clearly Stalin went overboard killing people.
There HAS to be a better system than either!
Maybe, but when the rightwing is too backwards to allow any progress,
you may have to defeat them, put in dictatorship and keep them down cuz
they will not allow any progressive democracy.
Bob
2005-12-30 09:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel
Bob,
Your lack of logic amazes me. Stalin had to kill millions in order to
save a net 2 million?
No. He saved at least 35 million lives, *even after accounting for all
he killed*.

Never in my life have I heard a more idiotic
Post by Miguel
rationalization for murdering millions of human beings.
Most he killed were innocent, but still, he was a complicated fellow.
You want to know why 37% of Russians support him? The answer is below.

I guess Hitler
Post by Miguel
must have thought the same thing. I am sure that in his mind, by
killing six million jews and five million other undesirables he was
saving Germany.
Do not think so. Anyway he never saved anyone.
Post by Miguel
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by PL
Why only use the "past 25 years".
Fidel has been in power for a lot longer.
It is relevant. Anyway, we have good evidence that Stalin, in spite of all
his killing, SAVED net 25 million Soviet lives from 1945-1956. Even during
the late thirties with all the horrible killings, Stalin was still saving
a net 2 million lives per year. Stalin was killing a lot of people, but he
was saving so many more.
Oh let's see he "saved" 25 million - however had 35 million executed and you
feel that's an offset?
No he saved 25 million NET during that during that period and another 10
million NET 1935-1940. And ~5 million saved under Communists in the
1920's. 40 million NET. AFTER the killings.

What of the 50 million he let starve to death?

Not one person agrees with such a figure.
Post by Miguel
Post by Bob
No the number saved 1950-1956 was about 3.5-3.7 million per year.
1945-1950 was about 2.5 million saved per year.
That's about 35 million right there.
And that includes all the people Stalin killed during that period,
believe it or not.
Post by KRP
Your math needs serious work Bob.
Nope.
I am amazed at how you rationalize such a
Post by KRP
bloody history to yourself.
I don't. He killed lots of ppl, but then saved many more.
Post by KRP
I can see the flaws in U.S. behavior you seem blind to the sins of
Communism.
No I don't. Clearly Stalin went overboard killing people.
There HAS to be a better system than either!
Maybe, but when the rightwing is too backwards to allow any progress,
you may have to defeat them, put in dictatorship and keep them down cuz
they will not allow any progressive democracy.
KRP
2005-12-30 13:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel
Bob,
Your lack of logic amazes me. Stalin had to kill millions in order to
save a net 2 million?
No. He saved at least 35 million lives, *even after accounting for all he
killed*.
That's bullshit.
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2005-12-30 14:50:58 UTC
Permalink
GO TO GOOGLE AND SEARCH FOR : DEMOCIDE, DEMOCIDIO , GENOCIDIO BY

PROFESSOR RUMMEL from Hawai University

or search in Google ,soc.culture.cuba also the same title. DEMOCIDIO,
GENOCIDIO ,PROF. RUMMEL
--
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html

http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org

Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf
http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma
http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
Post by Miguel
Bob,
Your lack of logic amazes me. Stalin had to kill millions in order to
save a net 2 million?
No. He saved at least 35 million lives, *even after accounting for all he
killed*.
That's bullshit.
CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA
2005-12-30 15:07:01 UTC
Permalink
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

EDITORIAL for December 28, 2005 (Page A14)

Cheers!

You may or may not believe in Santa Claus, but we suspect you don't think it
was Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer who delivered that 8.7% rise in holiday
sales over last year, as reported this week by MasterCard. Though the
economy has grown steadily through the year, the Democrats have tried to
throw soot on the growth story by constantly saying that median incomes are
falling. Judging by these holiday sales, somebody must have money.

We suspect it is not possible for "the rich" by themselves to cause sales of
flat-screen TVs, laptop computers, digital cameras and other electronics to
rise 11%; or make outlays on women's clothes grow by more than 8% this year.
Holiday purchases of home furnishings, according to data from MasterCard's
SpendingPulse unit, were up a whopping 15%. Purchases over $1,000 rose 13%.
Internet holiday sales appear to be up more than 20%. Some reports are less
robust than MasterCard's data, and much of the difference appears to turn on
how one accounts for gift-card sales. But the sales arrow was decidedly
upward.

We suppose this can be explained in terms of relatively low interest rates,
last-minute price reductions and free Internet shipping. Economics aside,
however, we'd say that a story like this most of all reflects optimism about
the future. So much of the focus in the news recently has been on the war in
Iraq or the state of the Bush presidency (which incidentally has been rising
in the polls since Mr. Bush and his colleagues went on offense with a more
coherent explanation of their purposes in Iraq and the war on terror). What
these sales data suggest, however, is that out across the country the sense
of progress and belief in upward mobility remains strong. Come January, the
politicians will return to convince us that things are terrible, but for
now, it looks like no one's buying what they're selling.

=======================

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
--
http://members.aol.com/Guanabacoa/che.html

http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp
www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org

Corrupcion_en_Cuba
http://www.cadal.org/libros/pdf/Corrupcion_en_Cuba.pdf
http://www.martinoticias.com/media/audio/M-001_051004.wma
http://www.martinoticias.com/MMtv.asp

"CENTRO ANTICOMUNISTA" <***@Escambray.cu>
Luis
2005-12-24 17:33:46 UTC
Permalink
If you so like it braindead, become a cuban citizen,instead of insulting the
intelligency of those in the know.

The more liberal shit you post the more stupid you look.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years, only a few people have been killed by the Cuban
state. A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that
happens in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A
boat full of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6
yrs ago. 3 or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years,
Cuba killed maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police
brutality.
specially if we include violence in prisons and jails, most capitalist
states in the Americas kill at a much higher rate than that.
Furthermore, if we note the life expectancy of the capitalist states, we
can say that every capitalist state down there is basically a killer,
based on their lower life expectancy. That is why I refer to Fidel
Castro's philosophy as "No Greater Love..."
Post by PL
As has been shown in other threads that is absurdly low.
Castro is firmly on the list of Genocide Watchfor killing thousands of
people.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2005.htm
Recent estimates are well above 100,000.
That sounds really crazy, but as noted, I believe that 10,000 or so were
executed, mostly in the 1960's.
Post by PL
By the way: tha fact that one dictator kills people is in no way an "excuse"
for another to do so.
I have just shown in this post that Castro kills people at a far lower
rate than the capitalist states of the Americas. Now argue with that.
Bob
2005-12-25 07:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luis
If you so like it braindead, become a cuban citizen,instead of insulting the
intelligency of those in the know.
Why do I have to do that? I praise many countries on this Green Earth.
Why is it that, if I praise a country, it is demanded that I must then
go live there! How bizarre! That is not my home, America is. I plan on
staying in my homeland, as I am a US patriot who loves his homeland.
Post by Luis
The more liberal shit you post the more stupid you look.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years, only a few people have been killed by the Cuban
state. A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that
happens in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A
boat full of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6
yrs ago. 3 or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years,
Cuba killed maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police
brutality.
specially if we include violence in prisons and jails, most capitalist
states in the Americas kill at a much higher rate than that.
Furthermore, if we note the life expectancy of the capitalist states, we
can say that every capitalist state down there is basically a killer,
based on their lower life expectancy. That is why I refer to Fidel
Castro's philosophy as "No Greater Love..."
Post by PL
As has been shown in other threads that is absurdly low.
Castro is firmly on the list of Genocide Watchfor killing thousands of
people.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2005.htm
Recent estimates are well above 100,000.
That sounds really crazy, but as noted, I believe that 10,000 or so were
executed, mostly in the 1960's.
Post by PL
By the way: tha fact that one dictator kills people is in no way an
"excuse"
Post by Bob
Post by PL
for another to do so.
I have just shown in this post that Castro kills people at a far lower
rate than the capitalist states of the Americas. Now argue with that.
Crusader
2005-12-26 02:56:05 UTC
Permalink
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Post by Bob
Post by Luis
If you so like it braindead, become a cuban citizen,instead of insulting the
intelligency of those in the know.
Why do I have to do that? I praise many countries on this Green Earth.
Why is it that, if I praise a country, it is demanded that I must then
go live there! How bizarre! That is not my home, America is. I plan on
staying in my homeland, as I am a US patriot who loves his homeland.
Post by Luis
The more liberal shit you post the more stupid you look.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Capitalist death squads kill far more every year in the Americas than
Castro has in the last 25 years.
Only if you accept your estimate of Castro's killings Bob.
In the past 25 years, only a few people have been killed by the Cuban
state. A few get beaten to death in police stations and jails, but that
happens in US and Denmark. 5 or 6 were killed 11 years ago in a riot. A
boat full of armed hijackers was attacked, and 20-30 people or so died 6
yrs ago. 3 or 4 were executed in 1987. Ok, so, in the past 25 years,
Cuba killed maybe 100 people, maybe 4 or so a year, mostly by police
brutality.
specially if we include violence in prisons and jails, most capitalist
states in the Americas kill at a much higher rate than that.
Furthermore, if we note the life expectancy of the capitalist states, we
can say that every capitalist state down there is basically a killer,
based on their lower life expectancy. That is why I refer to Fidel
Castro's philosophy as "No Greater Love..."
Post by PL
As has been shown in other threads that is absurdly low.
Castro is firmly on the list of Genocide Watchfor killing thousands of
people.
www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2005.htm
Recent estimates are well above 100,000.
That sounds really crazy, but as noted, I believe that 10,000 or so were
executed, mostly in the 1960's.
Post by PL
By the way: tha fact that one dictator kills people is in no way an
"excuse"
Post by Bob
Post by PL
for another to do so.
I have just shown in this post that Castro kills people at a far lower
rate than the capitalist states of the Americas. Now argue with that.
KRP
2005-12-26 13:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Miguel
2005-12-30 06:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education and free medical care. He can also live, like
Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
Bob
2005-12-30 09:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education
Don't need, Masters Degree.

and free medical care.

Already get free med care, thx Medicare!

He can also live, like
Post by Miguel
Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
I already walk around that way in my apartment. :D
KRP
2005-12-30 13:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education
Don't need, Masters Degree.
But here in "THE MONSTER" it helps increase how much you earn.
Post by Bob
and free medical care.
Already get free med care, thx Medicare!
Hmmm. In Capitalist heaven?
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
He can also live, like Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
I already walk around that way in my apartment. :D
Ever try it on the streets Bob? :-)
Bob
2005-12-31 01:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education
Don't need, Masters Degree.
But here in "THE MONSTER" it helps increase how much you earn.
I think so...sometimes I make $55/hr. Not often enough, though.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
and free medical care.
Already get free med care, thx Medicare!
Hmmm. In Capitalist heaven?
Yes. As you can see, we have *socialist* aspects here in America, such
as subsidized education loans and grants, free medical care for the
poor, etc. America is not a pure capitalist system.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
He can also live, like Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
I already walk around that way in my apartment. :D
Ever try it on the streets Bob? :-)
Um, do not think so?
Crusader
2005-12-30 20:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Master degree in Moronic Sciences?
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education
Don't need, Masters Degree.
and free medical care.
Already get free med care, thx Medicare!
He can also live, like
Post by Miguel
Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
I already walk around that way in my apartment. :D
Bob
2005-12-31 08:26:23 UTC
Permalink
How did you know!?
Post by Crusader
Master degree in Moronic Sciences?
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to
leave
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because
you.
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are
unable to
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I
have
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life
in
Post by Bob
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education
Don't need, Masters Degree.
KRP
2005-12-30 12:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education and free medical care. He can also live, like
Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
Oh well when I said he'd have to "work" he became less eager to travel.
I think that when I also said he's have to cover his own expenses that was
it.
Bob
2005-12-31 01:51:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Miguel
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
You are just a brainwashed liberal moron,who would die if he were to leave
the country he hates so much,America land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
You are neither free,because your mind is in chains or brave,because you.
depend on the goverment, to provide everything you think you are unable to
get for yourself.
Bob defines himself as a member of the Communist Party of the U.S... I have
invited him to travel to Cuba when we go next and try on the "good life in
paradise."
Please tell him to leave the dirty capitalist dollars in the US, so he
can enjoy free education and free medical care. He can also live, like
Adam and Eve, naked in his paradise.
Oh well when I said he'd have to "work" he became less eager to travel.
I think that when I also said he's have to cover his own expenses that was
it.
Um actually Ken, we never even discussed it. I am well aware of Cuba's
problems.
KRP
2005-12-18 14:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Defend the Cuban Revolution
Preview of editorial to appear in The Militant Vol. 69/No. 50
December 26, 2005 issue
(http://www.themilitant.com)
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
Post by Barry Schier
How is it that thousands of Cuban volunteers serve abroad and provide
competent assistance, asking for nothing in return?
Quite simply they don't! Fidel charges a tidy sum for his "volunteers."
But they see NONE of it.
Post by Barry Schier
The Cuban Revolution is a living example of what workers and farmers
can do when they are organized and take state power, ending capitalist
rule and building a society based on the needs of the vast majority.
Today, in face of a world of increasing economic devastation,
imperialist war, and capitalist brutality, the course taken by the
Cuban people points the road forward for workers and farmers in this
country and around the world.
That's why more than 2 MILLION Cubans have FLED that "SUCCESS!" Hey
Barry have you ever noticed that almost NOBODY is risking life and limb to
get IN to Cuba? Do you ever wonder why???? Ever wonder WHY those "workers
and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Albania,
Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia, Uzbekistan, and so on
have all CHOSEN Capitalism over Communism? Does it ever bother you Barry?
Make your shorts chafe just a little?
Barry Schier
2005-12-19 00:40:47 UTC
Permalink
"Why leave off Bolivia[,] Barry?"

Thanks for the reminder that there are literally dozens of reform
governments that the United States government directly or indirectly
intervened against and installed brutal and/or corrupt regimes in their
place. The regimes that followed the defeat of the 1952 Bolivian
(near)revolution (Banzer's in particular) certainly qualify.

As for the ritual repetition that 2 million Cubans "fled": First, in
the early years, they were old upper- and middle-classes (and. 95%
white according to U.S. Census figures), i.e., the bosses, overseers,
landlords, and others who lost their parasitic way of life as a result
of the social reforms implemented by the Revolution, as well as those
who were intellectually committed to the status quo and capitalist
system. Few of their maids joined them in"fleeing" Cuba. There had
been almost 47 year propaganda campaign urging people to leave Cuba for
the United States, where they would be given privileges and the fast
track to citizenship. As soon as Cubans who represented more of a
cross-section of the racial- and socioeconomic composition of Cuba
began wanting to migrate to the U.S. (demarcated by the "Mariel"
scenario of 1980), the United States government turned off its bright
neon lights announcing "Welcome ..." Even assuming every potential
applicant for migration from Cuba to the U.S. were to come (i.e., a
number which has fluctuated from 500,000 to 550,000, as measured by
visa / lottery applications and other objective measurements), the
culumulative total would still be a sixth of Cuba's population.

Contrast this to the countries from which people come to face
INELIGIBILITY for services, DISCRIMINATION, and the worst conditions:
One-fouth of all Puerto Ricans have migrated to the "Big Apple".
Moreover, the Puerto Rican barrios of Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland,
Buffalo / Rochester, Los Angeles' Wilmington neighborhood, etc.
collectively over a tenth of Puerto's Rico's population. (Technically
speaking, Puerto Rico is not a "country," but a U.S. colony or, in
legal terminology, a "Free Associated State.") One of five Salvadorans
came to the United States. More than 9 of 10 Salvadora political
asylum claims -- which DID meet the criterion of having a "well-founded
fear of persecution" back home) were rejected by U.S. immigration
courts, i.e., the system which rubber-stamped claims of Cubans and
others from countries where there were governments against which the
U.S. government held/holds a grudge. One of four Nicaraguans have
immigrated -- predominantly AFTER the 1990 end of that country's
Sandinista government.

As for "workers and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia,
Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia,
Uzbekistan, and so on ... all [having] CHOSEN Capitalism over
Communism," they have done nothing of the sort: they overthrew the
Stalinist police state regimes in those countries to try gain political
space. (Marxists, including myself and writers for The Miitant
newspaper, spoke / wrote in a positive tone about those rebellions.)
NONE of those countries is even stable, still less "capitalist"
"successes." No one has "CHOSEN" the largest non-wartime decline in
life expectancy in history -- as has happened in Russia in the
post-collapse years. With regular headlines demonstrations again
repression and/or disregarding of democratic election results and/or
outright electoral fraud in Ukraine and Uzbekistan (plus other those
countries that don't alliterate that well), its the people that are
"chaf"ing more than just a little.

--- Barry Schier


In 1986 -- i.e., BEFORE the downfall of the regimes in the former
Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, the Cuban revolutionary leadership
instituted various policies under a program it called "rectification"
REVERSING the aspects of Cuba's economy, etc., which were moving
towards towards of those Stalinist countires.
Bob
2005-12-19 08:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"Why leave off Bolivia[,] Barry?"
No one has "CHOSEN" the largest non-wartime decline in
Post by Barry Schier
life expectancy in history -- as has happened in Russia in the
post-collapse years.
What is interesting is that in Belarus, which still basically has a
Communist regime, life expectancy and health figures are much better
than in Russia, which collapsed into robber baron-Mafia capitalism.
KRP
2005-12-19 13:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"Why leave off Bolivia[,] Barry?"
Thanks for the reminder that there are literally dozens of reform
governments that the United States government directly or indirectly
intervened against and installed brutal and/or corrupt regimes in their
place. The regimes that followed the defeat of the 1952 Bolivian
(near)revolution (Banzer's in particular) certainly qualify.
You were counting trhe GREAT successes of the Cubans... Why did you
leave out Bolivia?
Post by Barry Schier
As for the ritual repetition that 2 million Cubans "fled": First, in
the early years, they were old upper- and middle-classes (and. 95%
white according to U.S. Census figures), i.e., the bosses, overseers,
landlords, and others who lost their parasitic way of life as a result
of the social reforms implemented by the Revolution, as well as those
who were intellectually committed to the status quo and capitalist
system. Few of their maids joined them in"fleeing" Cuba.
That's simply NOT true. Lots of average folks (MAIDS included) left
Cuba.
Post by Barry Schier
There had been almost 47 year propaganda campaign urging people to leave
Cuba for
the United States, where they would be given privileges and the fast
track to citizenship. As soon as Cubans who represented more of a
cross-section of the racial- and socioeconomic composition of Cuba
began wanting to migrate to the U.S. (demarcated by the "Mariel"
scenario of 1980), the United States government turned off its bright
neon lights announcing "Welcome ..." Even assuming every potential
applicant for migration from Cuba to the U.S. were to come (i.e., a
number which has fluctuated from 500,000 to 550,000, as measured by
visa / lottery applications and other objective measurements), the
culumulative total would still be a sixth of Cuba's population.
Thet NEON light still is there. Want to talk about Mariel? Who did
Castro send? He emptied the prisons and mental wards. MOST (not all) who
came on the boatlift were Castro getting rid of his problems.
Post by Barry Schier
Contrast this to the countries from which people come to face
One-fouth of all Puerto Ricans have migrated to the "Big Apple".
Moreover, the Puerto Rican barrios of Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland,
Buffalo / Rochester, Los Angeles' Wilmington neighborhood, etc.
collectively over a tenth of Puerto's Rico's population. (Technically
speaking, Puerto Rico is not a "country," but a U.S. colony or, in
legal terminology, a "Free Associated State.") One of five Salvadorans
came to the United States. More than 9 of 10 Salvadora political
asylum claims -- which DID meet the criterion of having a "well-founded
fear of persecution" back home) were rejected by U.S. immigration
courts, i.e., the system which rubber-stamped claims of Cubans and
others from countries where there were governments against which the
U.S. government held/holds a grudge. One of four Nicaraguans have
immigrated -- predominantly AFTER the 1990 end of that country's
Sandinista government.
Puerto Ricans are all over the United States - they are considered
United States citizens. A healthy bunch of people from Michigan live in
Florida too. So?
Post by Barry Schier
As for "workers and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia,
Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia,
Uzbekistan, and so on ... all [having] CHOSEN Capitalism over
Communism," they have done nothing of the sort: they overthrew the
Stalinist police state regimes in those countries to try gain political
space. (Marxists, including myself and writers for The Miitant
newspaper, spoke / wrote in a positive tone about those rebellions.)
NONE of those countries is even stable, still less "capitalist"
"successes." No one has "CHOSEN" the largest non-wartime decline in
life expectancy in history -- as has happened in Russia in the
post-collapse years. With regular headlines demonstrations again
repression and/or disregarding of democratic election results and/or
outright electoral fraud in Ukraine and Uzbekistan (plus other those
countries that don't alliterate that well), its the people that are
"chaf"ing more than just a little.
Well Barry that's trying to repaint the face of history a bit. Barry the
declines in life expectancy were well on their way before the bottom fell
out of the POLICE STATE nature of European communism. Lots of it has to do
with chronic alcoholism among the people. However look at POLAND and
Romania... The alcoholism was well underway in the 80's Barry in Russia. Now
the pigeons have come home to roost. Try to rationalize it any way you want
Barry but they DID choose to throw off the YOKE of Communism/ You being in a
frantic state of denial doesn't alter the FACTS! Doesn't change the
desperation of people to get OUT even then the STASI was at its peak with
barbed wires, WALLS and machine guns. Remember Barry Communism NEEDED those
walls and GUN TOWERS! They were ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL... if they didn't exist
it would have been very lonely for the GREAT LEADERS!
Barry Schier
2005-12-19 00:46:05 UTC
Permalink
"Why leave off Bolivia[,] Barry?"

Thanks for the reminder that there are literally dozens of reform
governments that the United States government directly or indirectly
intervened against and installed brutal and/or corrupt regimes in their
place. The regimes that followed the defeat of the 1952 Bolivian
(near)revolution (Banzer's in particular) certainly qualify.

As for the ritual repetition that 2 million Cubans "fled": First, in
the early years, they were old upper- and middle-classes (and. 95%
white according to U.S. Census figures), i.e., the bosses, overseers,
landlords, and others who lost their parasitic way of life as a result
of the social reforms implemented by the Revolution, as well as those
who were intellectually committed to the status quo and capitalist
system. Few of their maids joined them in"fleeing" Cuba. There had
been almost 47 year propaganda campaign urging people to leave Cuba for
the United States, where they would be given privileges and the fast
track to citizenship. As soon as Cubans who represented more of a
cross-section of the racial- and socioeconomic composition of Cuba
began wanting to migrate to the U.S. (demarcated by the "Mariel"
scenario of 1980), the United States government turned off its bright
neon lights announcing "Welcome ..." Even assuming every potential
applicant for migration from Cuba to the U.S. were to come (i.e., a
number which has fluctuated from 500,000 to 550,000, as measured by
visa / lottery applications and other objective measurements), the
culumulative total would still be a sixth of Cuba's population.

Contrast this to the countries from which people come to face
INELIGIBILITY for services, DISCRIMINATION, and the worst conditions:
One-fouth of all Puerto Ricans have migrated to the "Big Apple".
Moreover, the Puerto Rican barrios of Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland,
Buffalo / Rochester, Los Angeles' Wilmington neighborhood, etc.
collectively over a tenth of Puerto's Rico's population. (Technically
speaking, Puerto Rico is not a "country," but a U.S. colony or, in
legal terminology, a "Free Associated State.") One of five Salvadorans
came to the United States. More than 9 of 10 Salvadora political
asylum claims -- which DID meet the criterion of having a "well-founded
fear of persecution" back home) were rejected by U.S. immigration
courts, i.e., the system which rubber-stamped claims of Cubans and
others from countries where there were governments against which the
U.S. government held/holds a grudge. One of four Nicaraguans have
immigrated -- predominantly AFTER the 1990 end of that country's
Sandinista government.

As for "workers and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia,
Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia,
Uzbekistan, and so on ... all [having] CHOSEN Capitalism over
Communism," they have done nothing of the sort: they overthrew the
Stalinist police state regimes in those countries to try gain political
space. (Marxists, including myself and writers for The Miitant
newspaper, spoke / wrote in a positive tone about those rebellions.)
NONE of those countries is even stable, still less "capitalist"
"successes." No one has "CHOSEN" the largest non-wartime decline in
life expectancy in history -- as has happened in Russia in the
post-collapse years. With regular headlines demonstrations again
repression and/or disregarding of democratic election results and/or
outright electoral fraud in Ukraine and Uzbekistan (plus other those
countries that don't alliterate that well), its the people that are
"chaf"ing more than just a little.

--- Barry Schier


In 1986 -- i.e., BEFORE the downfall of the regimes in the former
Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, the Cuban revolutionary leadership
instituted various policies under a program it called "rectification"
REVERSING the aspects of Cuba's economy, etc., which were moving
towards towards of those Stalinist countires.
Barry Schier
2005-12-19 00:46:07 UTC
Permalink
"Why leave off Bolivia[,] Barry?"

Thanks for the reminder that there are literally dozens of reform
governments that the United States government directly or indirectly
intervened against and installed brutal and/or corrupt regimes in their
place. The regimes that followed the defeat of the 1952 Bolivian
(near)revolution (Banzer's in particular) certainly qualify.

As for the ritual repetition that 2 million Cubans "fled": First, in
the early years, they were old upper- and middle-classes (and. 95%
white according to U.S. Census figures), i.e., the bosses, overseers,
landlords, and others who lost their parasitic way of life as a result
of the social reforms implemented by the Revolution, as well as those
who were intellectually committed to the status quo and capitalist
system. Few of their maids joined them in"fleeing" Cuba. There had
been almost 47 year propaganda campaign urging people to leave Cuba for
the United States, where they would be given privileges and the fast
track to citizenship. As soon as Cubans who represented more of a
cross-section of the racial- and socioeconomic composition of Cuba
began wanting to migrate to the U.S. (demarcated by the "Mariel"
scenario of 1980), the United States government turned off its bright
neon lights announcing "Welcome ..." Even assuming every potential
applicant for migration from Cuba to the U.S. were to come (i.e., a
number which has fluctuated from 500,000 to 550,000, as measured by
visa / lottery applications and other objective measurements), the
culumulative total would still be a sixth of Cuba's population.

Contrast this to the countries from which people come to face
INELIGIBILITY for services, DISCRIMINATION, and the worst conditions:
One-fouth of all Puerto Ricans have migrated to the "Big Apple".
Moreover, the Puerto Rican barrios of Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland,
Buffalo / Rochester, Los Angeles' Wilmington neighborhood, etc.
collectively over a tenth of Puerto's Rico's population. (Technically
speaking, Puerto Rico is not a "country," but a U.S. colony or, in
legal terminology, a "Free Associated State.") One of five Salvadorans
came to the United States. More than 9 of 10 Salvadora political
asylum claims -- which DID meet the criterion of having a "well-founded
fear of persecution" back home) were rejected by U.S. immigration
courts, i.e., the system which rubber-stamped claims of Cubans and
others from countries where there were governments against which the
U.S. government held/holds a grudge. One of four Nicaraguans have
immigrated -- predominantly AFTER the 1990 end of that country's
Sandinista government.

As for "workers and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia,
Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia,
Uzbekistan, and so on ... all [having] CHOSEN Capitalism over
Communism," they have done nothing of the sort: they overthrew the
Stalinist police state regimes in those countries to try gain political
space. (Marxists, including myself and writers for The Miitant
newspaper, spoke / wrote in a positive tone about those rebellions.)
NONE of those countries is even stable, still less "capitalist"
"successes." No one has "CHOSEN" the largest non-wartime decline in
life expectancy in history -- as has happened in Russia in the
post-collapse years. With regular headlines demonstrations again
repression and/or disregarding of democratic election results and/or
outright electoral fraud in Ukraine and Uzbekistan (plus other those
countries that don't alliterate that well), its the people that are
"chaf"ing more than just a little.

--- Barry Schier


In 1986 -- i.e., BEFORE the downfall of the regimes in the former
Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, the Cuban revolutionary leadership
instituted various policies under a program it called "rectification"
REVERSING the aspects of Cuba's economy, etc., which were moving
towards towards of those Stalinist countires.
Bob
2005-12-19 08:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
Defend the Cuban Revolution
Preview of editorial to appear in The Militant Vol. 69/No. 50
December 26, 2005 issue
(http://www.themilitant.com)
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!

Evo Morales, presente!

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/world/13439758.htm
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
How is it that thousands of Cuban volunteers serve abroad and provide
competent assistance, asking for nothing in return?
Quite simply they don't! Fidel charges a tidy sum for his "volunteers."
But they see NONE of it.
Post by Barry Schier
The Cuban Revolution is a living example of what workers and farmers
can do when they are organized and take state power, ending capitalist
rule and building a society based on the needs of the vast majority.
Today, in face of a world of increasing economic devastation,
imperialist war, and capitalist brutality, the course taken by the
Cuban people points the road forward for workers and farmers in this
country and around the world.
That's why more than 2 MILLION Cubans have FLED that "SUCCESS!"
Hey Kenny, there are lots of reactionaries in the world. Good riddance
to worms.

Hey
Post by KRP
Barry have you ever noticed that almost NOBODY is risking life and limb to
get IN to Cuba? Do you ever wonder why???? Ever wonder WHY those "workers
and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria, Albania,
Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia, Uzbekistan, and so on
have all CHOSEN Capitalism over Communism?
It's a different matter. East European and Soviet Communism did not
compare favorably with West European social democracy. Almost all of
those states have simply gone from Communism to socialism (social
democracy). Furthermore, in most of those states, Communism was imposed
at gunpoint, and the takeovers in many cases had overt Russian or Soviet
imperialist overtones. The exception is Russia, but the Communists built
that country up from scratch anyway.

Belarus is still basically a Communist regime. Many of the other nations
listed still have huge public sectors, massive social spending programs,
free health care, education, and public works jobs, plus subsidized
government housing.

More properly, those countries chose SOCIALISM over Communism, not
capitalism over Communism, since social democracy is socialism.

When the day comes when the Latin American capitalist states are as
progressive and wealthy as West Europe, I think the Cubans may abandon
Communism. As such, LA is ruled by fascist, feudalist, despicable,
ultra-right wing gusano-worms, and hence, Cuba looks damn good in
comparison.
KRP
2005-12-19 14:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him? Essentially do
away with elections?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
That's why more than 2 MILLION Cubans have FLED that "SUCCESS!"
Hey Kenny, there are lots of reactionaries in the world. Good riddance to
worms.
Pretty calous dude! I had thought better of you.
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Hey Barry have you ever noticed that almost NOBODY is risking life and
limb to get IN to Cuba? Do you ever wonder why???? Ever wonder WHY those
"workers and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia,
Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia,
Uzbekistan, and so on have all CHOSEN Capitalism over Communism?
It's a different matter. East European and Soviet Communism did not
compare favorably with West European social democracy. Almost all of those
states have simply gone from Communism to socialism (social democracy).
Furthermore, in most of those states, Communism was imposed at gunpoint,
and the takeovers in many cases had overt Russian or Soviet imperialist
overtones. The exception is Russia, but the Communists built that country
up from scratch anyway.
Communism is ALWAYS imposed by gunpoint. It CANNOT exist in any other
soil!
Post by Bob
When the day comes when the Latin American capitalist states are as
progressive and wealthy as West Europe, I think the Cubans may abandon
Communism. As such, LA is ruled by fascist, feudalist, despicable,
ultra-right wing gusano-worms, and hence, Cuba looks damn good in
comparison.
I will consider them "PROGRESSIVE" when they are freely elected and
continue in OPEN elections and freedom. Until then they are dictatorships.
Bob
2005-12-20 00:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of
the walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Chavez has done this? LOL, what about those virulent surreal TV stations
that beat the shit out of Chavez in a way that no media organ does Bush
24-7. The French president visited Chavez with worries about free
speech. Chavez said no worries, just watch TV for a whole morning. He
did and he came away shaking his head. He said Chavez had more free
speech than they did in France.

Essentially do
Post by KRP
away with elections?
WTF?????!!!!!!!!

The opposition has the support of 22% of population. End of argument.
Venezuela is one of the most democratic countries in the Americas, and
some of the freest elections to boot. Far freer than US elections, for
instance.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
That's why more than 2 MILLION Cubans have FLED that "SUCCESS!"
Hey Kenny, there are lots of reactionaries in the world. Good riddance to
worms.
Pretty calous dude! I had thought better of you.
Nah.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Hey Barry have you ever noticed that almost NOBODY is risking life and
limb to get IN to Cuba? Do you ever wonder why???? Ever wonder WHY those
"workers and farmers" from Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia,
Bulgaria, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Georgia,
Uzbekistan, and so on have all CHOSEN Capitalism over Communism?
It's a different matter. East European and Soviet Communism did not
compare favorably with West European social democracy. Almost all of those
states have simply gone from Communism to socialism (social democracy).
Furthermore, in most of those states, Communism was imposed at gunpoint,
and the takeovers in many cases had overt Russian or Soviet imperialist
overtones. The exception is Russia, but the Communists built that country
up from scratch anyway.
Communism is ALWAYS imposed by gunpoint. It CANNOT exist in any other
soil!
Really, how did Allende get elected? And Chavez is supposedly a Commie
and he has won, what, 8 elections now? Ortega won free and fair in
Nicaragua in 1984. Communists win elections all the time in Europe,
Nepal and India. They even rule whole states and provinces for decades.
KRP
2005-12-21 18:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of the
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Chavez has done this? LOL, what about those virulent surreal TV stations
that beat the shit out of Chavez in a way that no media organ does Bush
24-7. The French president visited Chavez with worries about free speech.
Chavez said no worries, just watch TV for a whole morning. He did and he
came away shaking his head. He said Chavez had more free speech than they
did in France.
Yep. He has done this. It is now a crime to PUBLICLY criticize him or
the government. Those "virulent" TV stations USED to beat the crap out of
Chavez prior to 2003. They do NOT any more.
Bob
2005-12-22 01:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of the
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Chavez has done this? LOL, what about those virulent surreal TV stations
that beat the shit out of Chavez in a way that no media organ does Bush
24-7. The French president visited Chavez with worries about free speech.
Chavez said no worries, just watch TV for a whole morning. He did and he
came away shaking his head. He said Chavez had more free speech than they
did in France.
Yep. He has done this. It is now a crime to PUBLICLY criticize him or
the government.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a joke. He would have to arrest 80% of the
media LOL.

Those "virulent" TV stations USED to beat the crap out of
Post by KRP
Chavez prior to 2003. They do NOT any more.
That's news to me. I hear they still do that all the time.
krp
2005-12-22 12:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of the
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Chavez has done this? LOL, what about those virulent surreal TV stations
that beat the shit out of Chavez in a way that no media organ does Bush
24-7. The French president visited Chavez with worries about free speech.
Chavez said no worries, just watch TV for a whole morning. He did and he
came away shaking his head. He said Chavez had more free speech than they
did in France.
Yep. He has done this. It is now a crime to PUBLICLY criticize him or
the government.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a joke. He would have to arrest 80% of the
media LOL.
Nope just have his Cuban thungs gun a few of the most outspoken down ion
the street. The rest get the message VERY quickly!
Post by Bob
Those "virulent" TV stations USED to beat the crap out of
Post by KRP
Chavez prior to 2003. They do NOT any more.
That's news to me. I hear they still do that all the time.
Yeah you guys hear all sorts of shit. And even sometimes what you hear
is true. Your problem Bob is that you seem to hear only what you want to
hear.
You are starting to see the same kind of desperate "flight" from Venezuela
that has been seen from Cuba etc.

Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen... How can you reconcile having to place barbed wire, walls and
gun towers to keep your people IN your "paradise?" You seem NOT to find a
problem with that and the FACT that people are not clamoring to get IN to
your workers paradises... It seems NOT to register.. Did ya ever think
there might be a reason? Like you they ever allowed a REAL election Castro
would be out on his ass? Yes, Bob you indeed CAN fool the people in the
short run with phony promises. But eventually they catch on - EVERY
Communist government in the history of the world has KNOWN that, which is
why they ALL erect elaborate domestic intelligence agencies (like the CDR)
to terrorize the people and keep the yoke on them. Communism has NO other
choice! The second you allow ANY free choice you're history. All you can
do - the ONLY think you can do is send in the People's Army into the square
and start blowing women and children up with your tanks! You can't exist
without placing guns to the heads of the people after they learn the truth
about your brand of bullshit Bob!

It is sad Bob, that only SPOILED Americans, Canadians and Europeans hold
onto beliefs in Communism. Those with poor education, closed minds, limited
intelligence, and overly compassionate people. Don't get me wrong,
compassion is good. Even understanding just how BAD American policy has been
in Latin America is a good thing. BUT - Communism isn't the answer Bob...
It's just a different problem. The difference between Batista and Castro?
Castro is worse! They both ruled as dictators. Right wing despot - left wing
despot and the people continue to suffer! Free health care, literacy are
worthless unless you can enjoy your life. Otherwise you are merely fattening
up and keeping healthy the farm hands. Hell ALL slave owners knew that you
had to feed the slaves. What good is literacy if all you can read is
BULLSHIT? What good is anything if you are not FREE?
Bob
2005-12-24 11:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a
revolution
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime
was
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir
aparent?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of
the
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Chavez has done this? LOL, what about those virulent surreal TV
stations
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
that beat the shit out of Chavez in a way that no media organ does Bush
24-7. The French president visited Chavez with worries about free
speech.
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Chavez said no worries, just watch TV for a whole morning. He did and
he
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
came away shaking his head. He said Chavez had more free speech than
they
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
did in France.
Yep. He has done this. It is now a crime to PUBLICLY criticize him
or
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
the government.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a joke. He would have to arrest 80% of the
media LOL.
Nope just have his Cuban thungs gun a few of the most outspoken down ion
the street. The rest get the message VERY quickly!
This never occurs, ever.
Post by Barry Schier
Post by Bob
Those "virulent" TV stations USED to beat the crap out of
Post by KRP
Chavez prior to 2003. They do NOT any more.
That's news to me. I hear they still do that all the time.
Yeah you guys hear all sorts of shit. And even sometimes what you hear
is true. Your problem Bob is that you seem to hear only what you want to
hear.
You are starting to see the same kind of desperate "flight" from Venezuela
that has been seen from Cuba etc.
Well as I recall the French President paid a recent visit to Chavez and
was complaining about press censorship. Chavez laughed and told him to
watch Ven TV for a whole morning. The raw naked raging hatred, the lies,
the incitement, the treason, amazed Chirac. At noon he was laughing and
he told Chavez that Ven media was freer than French. So, based on that,
I do not believe this shit about "it's now illegal to criticize Hugo". I
find when I chase down the shit you gusanos say about the Great Hugo,
over 90% of it is crap.
Post by Barry Schier
Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen...
CC is smart.

How can you reconcile having to place barbed wire, walls and
Post by Barry Schier
gun towers to keep your people IN your "paradise?"
I believe you can leave?

You seem NOT to find a
Post by Barry Schier
problem with that and the FACT that people are not clamoring to get IN to
your workers paradises...
People want to leave all those places and come to the US. You saw the
figures - 20-25% of the populations of Nicaragua, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic are in the US. You have a
very rich country next to some very poor countries, so you will get
massive migration.

It seems NOT to register.. Did ya ever think
Post by Barry Schier
there might be a reason? Like you they ever allowed a REAL election Castro
would be out on his ass?
Who knows?

Yes, Bob you indeed CAN fool the people in the
Post by Barry Schier
short run with phony promises. But eventually they catch on - EVERY
Communist government in the history of the world has KNOWN that, which is
why they ALL erect elaborate domestic intelligence agencies (like the CDR)
to terrorize the people and keep the yoke on them.
Not true. In Chile, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and states in Italy
and India, there was no such repression.

Communism has NO other
Post by Barry Schier
choice! The second you allow ANY free choice you're history.
Hugo is allowing free choice endlessly and his party has been elected 7
times, with no repression at all. Sandinists were elected in 1984, and
Allende in 1970 and Morales just now. Arbenz in 1954. Italian, French
and Indian Commies are all elected.
Post by Barry Schier
It is sad Bob, that only SPOILED Americans, Canadians and
Europeans hold
Post by Barry Schier
onto beliefs in Communism.
Do not think so. Appears 75% of Venezuela supports Communism, majority
of Bolivia, 30-40% in El Salvador and Guatemala, huge numbers in
Colombia, Nepal and Philippines.

Those with poor education,

Bwahahahaaha!

closed minds, limited
Post by Barry Schier
intelligence,
Bwahahahaahaha!

and overly compassionate people. Don't get me wrong,
Post by Barry Schier
compassion is good. Even understanding just how BAD American policy has been
in Latin America is a good thing. BUT - Communism isn't the answer Bob...
It's just a different problem. The difference between Batista and Castro?
Castro is worse! They both ruled as dictators. Right wing despot - left wing
despot and the people continue to suffer! Free health care, literacy are
worthless unless you can enjoy your life.
Well, I dunno. I support long life.

Otherwise you are merely fattening
Post by Barry Schier
up and keeping healthy the farm hands. Hell ALL slave owners knew that you
had to feed the slaves.
They were not known for prolonging longevity of them.

What good is literacy if all you can read is
Post by Barry Schier
BULLSHIT? What good is anything if you are not FREE?
Life is worthwhile, "free" or not. That's just my opinion. I regard
"freedom to live" "freedom to survive" "freedom to live long" as the
ULTIMATE freedoms, which capitalism does not value one bit. Castro and
other Commies place these values in the forefront, which makes them
major humanists.

Indeed, from 1935-1956, Stalin actually SAVED 43 million lives (even
counting all he killed). Stalin doubled Russian life expectancy from
1918-1956, the greatest such achievement ever achieved by any regime at
the time.

1935-1940: Stalin saved 2 million lives per year
1945-1956: Stalin saved 3 million lives per year

That's including those he killed!

Then, in a similar period, Mao did the same thing. Doubled the life
expectancy. I need to work up the Chinese figures.
PL
2005-12-24 12:17:00 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:dojcqv$bfc$***@pita.alt.net...
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Nope just have his Cuban thungs gun a few of the most outspoken down ion
the street. The rest get the message VERY quickly!
This never occurs, ever.
But these laws do exist and are applied, no?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm

The articles of the Penal Code now used more frequently to suppress dissent
include:

Article 144, which defines the crime of desacato, or "disrespect." It states
that anyone who threatens, slanders, defames, insults, harms or in anyway
outrages or offends, verbally or in writing, the dignity or honor of an
authority, public official, or their agents or auxiliaries, in the exercise
of their functions or because of them can be imprisoned for between three
months and one year or fined or both. If the act of disrespect is directed
at the head of state or other senior officials the penalty is a prison term
from one to three years
Articles 208 and 209, which define the crime of asociación ilícita, or
"illicit association." These articles state that anyone belonging to an
unregistered association can be fined or imprisoned for between one and
three months. The promoters or leaders of such an association can be fined
or imprisoned for between three months and a year. Anyone who participates
in illegal meetings or demonstrations can be fined or imprisoned for between
one and three months. The organizers of illegal meetings or demonstrations
can be fined or imprisoned for between three months and a year.
Article 103, which defines the crime of propaganda enemiga, or "enemy
propaganda." It states that anyone who incites against the social order,
international solidarity or the socialist state by means of verbal, written
or any other kind of propaganda, or who makes, distributes or possesses such
propaganda, can be imprisoned from between one to eight years. Anyone who
spreads false news or malicious predictions likely to cause alarm or
discontent among the population, or public disorder, can be imprisoned from
between one and four years. If the mass media are used, the sentence can be
from seven to fifteen years in prison.
Article 207, which defines the crime of asociación para delinquir, or
"associating with others to commit crimes." It states that if three or more
persons join together in a group to commit crimes, they can be imprisoned
for between one and three years, simply for meeting together. If the only
objective of the group is to provoke disorder or interrupt family or public
parties, spectacles or other community events or to commit other anti-social
acts, the penalty is a fine or a prison sentence of between three months and
one year.
Article 115, which defines the crime of difusión de falsas informaciones
contra la paz internacional, or "dissemination of false information against
international peace." It states that anyone who spreads false news with aim
of disturbing international peace or putting in danger the prestige or
credit of the Cuban State or its good relations with another state can be
imprisoned for between one and four years.
Article 143, which defines the crime of resistencia, or "resistance." On
occasion, the crime is referred to as desobediencia, or "disobedience." It
states that anyone who resists an official in the exercise of his duties can
be imprisoned for between three months and a year or fined. If the official
is trying to apprehend a criminal or someone who has escaped from prison,
the penalty is a prison term from two to five years.
Articles 72-90, which define the crime of peligrosidad, or "dangerousness."
These articles come under the heading, "The Dangerous Status and Security
Measures," a section of the Penal Code under which someone can be sentenced
for up to four years in prison on the grounds that the authorities believe
the individual has a "special proclivity" to commit crimes, even though he
or she might not have actually committed a crime. These articles broadly
define "dangerous" people as those who act in a manner that contradicts
"socialist morality" or engage in "anti-social behavior." Moreover, Article
75 provides for an "official warning" to people the authorities deem to be
in danger of becoming "dangerous," i.e., those who are not yet "dangerous"
but who are regarded as having criminal tendencies because of their "ties or
relations with people who are potentially dangerous to society, other
people, and to the social, economic and political order of the socialist
State."
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) concludes that because
of "their lack of precision and their subjective nature," the legal
definitions of "dangerousness" and such terms as "socialist legality" and
"standards of socialist coexistence,"
constitute a source of juridical insecurity which creates conditions
permitting the Cuban authorities to take arbitrary action.22
In other words, the Penal Code articles which define "dangerousness"
constitute a catch-all mechanism which gives the government the legal
justification for taking any citizen it wants out of circulation. As Human
Rights Watch/Americas stated in October 1995:
Cubans who engage in "anti-social behavior" or violate "socialist morality"
may be held in preventive detention under the "dangerousness" provisions of
the criminal code for as long as four years, even without being convicted of
a crime.23
According to Pax Christi Netherlands and Amnesty International, there are
clear indications that the crime of "dangerousness" is used as a cover to
imprison people for political reasons on the grounds that they are common
delinquents.24
The Penal Code also defines the crime of salida illegal del país, "illegal
exit from country." Under Penal Code Articles 216 and 217, those caught
trying to leave the country without the permission of the government can be
fined or imprisoned for up to three years if they have not used violence and
up to eight years if force or intimidation is used. In cases where passenger
vessels or airplanes are hijacked, the charge is usually one of piratería,
"piracy." Under Penal Code Article 117, piracy carries a penalty of up to 20
years imprisonment, or a possible sentence of death if there is loss of life
or risk to the lives of others.25
In the past three decades, thousands of Cubans have been imprisoned for
trying to leave the island without permission. In 1994, illegal exit
prisoners were thought to constitute the largest category of political
prisoners in Cuba. In 1990 alone, there were 335 inmates convicted of
illegal exit serving time in a single prison in Havana, the Combinado del
Este.26
Under the 1995 U.S.-Cuba immigration agreement, the Cuban government
promised to "ensure that no action is taken against those migrants returned
to Cuba as a consequence of their attempt to emigrate illegally."27 However,
the Cuban government still has neither eliminated nor amended Penal Code
Articles 216 and 217 to reflect this commitment. Although recently there
appears to be a trend toward lighter penalties - e.g., fines and/or house
arrest - particularly in cases of first-time offenders, Articles 216 and 217
are still used to punish people for trying to leave the country without
permission. That underscores the fact that the threat of punishment
continues to hang over the heads of those who are returned to Cuba following
attempts to leave without authorization. The current status of the U.S.-Cuba
immigration agreement and the condition of Cubans who have been repatriated
to Cuba are discussed in Chapter XVI, Section C, of this report.

See: http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/carib/1997-cuba.html#penal


Article 91: Acts against the Independence or the Territorial Integrity of
the State

ARTICLE 91. The person who, in the interest of a foreign State, commits an
act with the intent to cause damage to the independence of the Cuban State
or the integrity of its territory, shall be punished with 10 to 20 years in
prison or death.

Law 88.
Promulgated in February 1999, the "88 Law" - soon nicknamed the "gagging
law" in dissident circles - weighs like the Sword of Damocles over any
person who "collaborates, by any means whatsoever, with radio or television
programmes, magazines or any other foreign media" or "provides information"
considered likely to serve US policy. The law provides for very heavy
sentences: up to 20 years' imprisonment, confiscation of all personal
belongings and fines up to 100,000 pesos (close to 4,800 dollars, while the
average Cuban salary is 250 pesos or 12 dollars per month). This law, that
no court has taken advantage of as yet, also provides for punishment for
"the promotion, organisation or encouragement of, or the participation in
meetings or demonstrations.
Provisions of Law 88

In February 1999 Cuba's National Assembly passed tough legislation providing
for stiff prison terms for those guilty of supporting United States policy
against Cuba as laid out in the Helms-Burton Law:

Whereas, the Government of the United States has dedicated itself to
promoting, organizing, financing and directing counterrevolutionary and
imperialist elements inside and outside the territory of the Republic of
Cuba. For four decades it has invested significant financial and material
resources to carry out numerous covert activities in order to destroy the
independence and economy of Cuba, using to such end individuals recruited
within the national territory, as has been recognized by the Central
Intelligence Agency since 1961 according to a report released in 1998.(77)

The text of the law further details US legislative measures to finance
counterrevolutionary activities in Cuba:

through the Law of 12 March 1996 known as the Helms-Burton Law, the United
States expanded, intensified and codified its economic war against Cuba and
detailed how such assistance would be given to individuals who would be used
in the national territory to carry out the subversive and imperialist
objectives of the Empire . the Federal Budget Law, passed on 21 October 1998
by the Government of the United States, set a minimum of two million dollars
to support counterrevolutionary activities in Cuba .(78)

In this way, financing subversive activities within Cuba is portrayed, in
addition to the embargo, as part of the US 'economic war' against Cuba. The
introductory text concludes that it is "an inescapable duty to respond to
this aggression against the Cuban people,"(79) and proceeds to detail the
types of behaviour that would be considered as facilitating US policy and
the penalties for them (see text box).

Penalties included in Law 88

Article 4 of the law provides for seven to 15 years' imprisonment for
passing information to the United States government or its agents that could
be used to bolster anti-Cuban measures such as the US embargo or related
destabilising activities within Cuba. This would rise to 20 years if the
information is acquired with the participation of two or more persons; is
passed on in order to receive personal gain; or is acquired surreptitiously
or in a work context. Similarly, the penalty would be aggravated if the
Cuban economy were ultimately to be harmed by the information being passed
or if, as a result, the United States government were to take punitive
measures against Cuban or foreign enterprises.

Article 5 provides for penalties of three to eight years, and/or a fine, for
those who seek out classified information to be used in this way, which
would rise to twelve years in the aggravating circumstances outlined above.

Under article 6 the legislation also sanctions with three to eight years
and/or a fine the introduction into Cuba, ownership, distribution or
reproduction of 'subversive materials' from the US government that would
facilitate US economic aggression or related destabilising activities within
Cuba. The penalties are more severe for those who do so for personal gain or
who cause damage to the Cuban economy.

It proposes in article 7 terms of imprisonment of up to five years for
collaborating with radio and TV stations, printed publications or other
media deemed to be assisting US policy; accredited foreign journalists are
exempt. Again, the penalties are more severe if the individual profits by
the activity.

Also punishable by up to five years' imprisonment are acts which disturb
public order for the benefit of the US economic war on Cuba, according to
article 8; the penalties increase for organisers of such events.

Article 9 outlaws 'any act intended to impede or prejudice the economic
relations of the Cuban state' with penalties of up to 15 years. This can be
extended if violence, blackmail or other illegal means are used; if private
profit is obtained as a result; or if the United States government takes
punitive measures in reprisal. The remaining articles cover incitement of
others to commit any of the above acts; distribution of US funds or
materials for these activities; and collaboration with third states
sympathetic to US aims in Cuba.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003

Spanish text of the law:
Ley 88 de Protección de la Independencia Nacional y la Economía de Cuba.
RICARDO ALARCÓN DE QUESADA, Presidente de la Asamblea Nacional del Poder
Popular de la República de Cuba.

HAGO SABER: Que la Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular en su Primera Reunión
Extraordinaria de la Quinta Legislatura, celebrada los días 15 y 16 de
febrero de 1999, ha aprobado lo siguiente:

POR CUANTO: El Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América se ha dedicado a
promover, organizar, financiar y dirigir a elementos contrarrevolucionarios
y anexionistas dentro y fuera del territorio de la República de Cuba.
Durante cuatro décadas ha invertido cuantiosos recursos materiales y
financieros para la realización de numerosas acciones encubiertas con el
propósito de destruir la independencia y la economía de Cuba, utilizando
para tales fines, entre otros, a individuos reclutados dentro del territorio
nacional, como ha reconocido la Agencia Central de Inteligencia desde el año
1961, en informe que fuera divulgado en el año l998.

POR CUANTO: La Enmienda "Torricelli" incluida en la ley de Gastos para la
Defensa de 1992, promulgada por el Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América,
previó el suministro de medios materiales y financieros para el desarrollo
de actividades contrarrevolucionarias dentro de Cuba, y mediante la Ley de
12 de marzo de 1996, conocida como Ley Helms Burton, se amplió, intensificó
y codificó la guerra económica contra Cuba y detalla el suministro de tales
recursos a individuos que serían empleados en el territorio nacional para
cumplir los propósitos subversivos y anexionistas del Imperio, habiéndose
reconocido públicamente, desde esa fecha y en reiteradas ocasiones, la
entrega de dichos fondos del Presupuesto Federal de Estados Unidos para esos
fines.

POR CUANTO: La Ley del Presupuesto Federal para 1999, promulgada el 21 de
octubre de 1998 por el Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América, fijó un límite
mínimo de dos millones de dólares para la realización de actividades
contrarrevolucionarias dentro de Cuba y el 5 de enero de 1999 el Presidente
de ese país anunció planes para engrosar, con recursos de entidades e
individuos, los fondos federales que se destinan a la promoción y ejecución
de dichas acciones.

POR CUANTO: Las acciones anteriormente mencionadas constituyen una
permanente agresión contra la independencia y soberanía de la República de
Cuba, violatoria del Derecho Internacional y de los principios y normas que
rigen las relaciones entre los Estados, y de manera persistente esta
agresión se ha ampliado e intensificado durante cuarenta años, se ha
refrendado incluso mediante las decisiones legislativas antes mencionadas y
se ha proclamado como política de Estado contra nuestro país, empleándose
para su consecución cuantiosos recursos oficiales, a la vez que se promueve
el empleo de los que destinen a esos fines otras entidades privadas e
individuos.

POR CUANTO: Constituye un deber ineludible responder a la agresión de que es
objeto el pueblo cubano, derrotar el propósito anexionista y salvaguardar la
independencia nacional, tipificando como delitos las conductas que
favorezcan la aplicación de la mencionada Ley "Helms-Burton", el bloqueo, la
guerra económica contra Cuba, la subversión y otras medidas similares que
hayan sido adoptadas o sean adoptadas en el futuro por el Gobierno de
Estados Unidos de América, mediante disposición o regulación, con
independencia de su rango normativo, así como otras medidas que propendan a
fomentar o desarrollar esa política agresiva contra los intereses
fundamentales de la Nación.

POR CUANTO: Es propósito de esta Ley sancionar aquellas acciones que en
concordancia con los intereses imperialistas persiguen subvertir el orden
interno de la Nación y destruir su sistema político, económico y social, sin
que en modo alguno menoscabe los derechos y garantías fundamentales
consagrados en la Constitución de la República.
POR CUANTO: En cumplimiento de lo dispuesto en la Ley de Reafirmación de la
Dignidad y Soberanía Cubanas, Ley No. 80 de 1996, el Gobierno de la
República de Cuba, ha presentado a la consideración de la Asamblea Nacional
del Poder Popular, el proyecto correspondiente.

POR TANTO: La Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular en uso de las atribuciones
que le están conferidas en el artículo 75 inciso b) de la Constitución de la
República, ha adoptado la siguiente:

LEY No. 88 DE PROTECCIÓN DE LA INDEPENDENCIA NACIONAL Y LA ECONOMÍA DE CUBA

CAPÍTULO I

Generalidades

Artículo 1: Esta Ley tiene como finalidad tipificar y sancionar aquellos
hechos dirigidos a apoyar, facilitar, o colaborar con los objetivos de la
Ley "Helms-Burton", el bloqueo y la guerra económica contra nuestro pueblo,
encaminados a quebrantar el orden interno, desestabilizar el país y liquidar
al Estado Socialista y la independencia de Cuba.

Artículo 2: Dado el carácter especial de esta Ley, su aplicación será
preferente a cualquier otra legislación penal que le preceda.

Artículo 3.1: A los delitos previstos en esta Ley le son aplicables, en lo
atinente, las disposiciones contenidas en la Parte General del Código Penal.

2. En los delitos previstos en esta Ley el tribunal puede imponer como
sanción accesoria la confiscación de bienes.

3. Los delitos previstos en esta Ley se sancionan con independencia de los
que se cometan para su ejecución o en ocasión de ella.

CAPÍTULO II

De las Infracciones Penales

Artículo 4.1: El que suministre, directamente o mediante tercero, al
Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América, sus agencias, dependencias,
representantes o funcionarios, información para facilitar los objetivos de
la Ley "Helms-Burton", el bloqueo y la guerra económica contra nuestro
pueblo, encaminados a quebrantar el orden interno, desestabilizar el país y
liquidar al Estado Socialista y la independencia de Cuba, incurre en sanción
de privación de libertad de siete a quince años.

2. La sanción es de privación de libertad de ocho a veinte años cuando
concurra alguna de las circunstancias siguientes:

a) si el hecho se comete con el concurso de dos o más personas;

b) si el hecho se realiza con ánimo de lucro o mediante dádiva,
remuneración, recompensa o promesa de cualquier ventaja o beneficio;

c) si el culpable llegó a conocer o poseer la información de manera
subrepticia o empleando cualquier otro medio ilícito;

d) si el culpable conociera o poseyera la información por razón del cargo
que desempeñe;

e) si, como consecuencia del hecho, se producen graves perjuicios a la
economía nacional;

f) si, como consecuencia del hecho, el Gobierno de Estados Unidos de
América, sus agencias o dependencias, adoptan medidas de represalias contra
entidades industriales, comerciales, financieras o de otra naturaleza,
cubanas o extranjeras, o contra alguno de sus dirigentes y familiares.

Artículo 5.1: El que, busque información clasificada para ser utilizada en
la aplicación de la Ley "Helms-Burton", el bloqueo y la guerra económica
contra nuestro pueblo, encaminados a quebrantar el orden interno,
desestabilizar el país y liquidar al Estado Socialista y la independencia de
Cuba, incurre en sanción de privación de libertad de tres a ocho años o
multa de tres mil a cinco mil cuotas, o ambas.

2. La sanción es de privación de libertad de cinco a doce años cuando
concurra alguna de las circunstancias siguientes:

a) si el culpable llegó a conocer o poseer la información de manera
subrepticia o empleando cualquier otro medio ilícito;

b) si el hecho se comete con el concurso de dos o más personas.

3. La sanción es de privación de libertad de siete a quince años si la
información obtenida, por la índole de su contenido, produce graves
perjuicios a la economía nacional.

Artículo 6.1: El que acumule, reproduzca o difunda, material de carácter
subversivo del Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América, sus agencias,
dependencias, representantes, funcionarios o de cualquier entidad
extranjera, para apoyar los objetivos de la Ley Helms-Burton, el bloqueo y
la guerra económica contra nuestro pueblo, encaminados a quebrantar el orden
interno, desestabilizar el país y liquidar al Estado Socialista y la
independencia de Cuba, incurre en sanción de privación de libertad de tres a
ocho años o multa de tres mil a cinco mil cuotas o ambas.

2- En la misma sanción incurre el que con iguales propósitos introduzca en
el país los materiales a que se refiere el apartado anterior.

3- La sanción es de privación de libertad de cuatro a diez años cuando
concurra en los hechos a que se refieren los apartados anteriores, alguna de
las circunstancias siguientes:

a) si los hechos se cometen con el concurso de dos o más personas;

b) si los hechos se realizan con ánimo de lucro o mediante dádiva,
remuneración, recompensa o promesa de cualquier ventaja o beneficio.

4. La sanción es de privación de libertad de siete a quince años si el
material, por la índole de su contenido, produce graves perjuicios a la
economía nacional.

Artículo 7.1: El que, con el propósito de lograr los objetivos de la Ley
"Helms-Burton", el bloqueo y la guerra económica contra nuestro pueblo,
encaminados a quebrantar el orden interno, desestabilizar el país y liquidar
al Estado Socialista y la independencia de Cuba, colabore por cualquier vía
con emisoras de radio o televisión, periódicos, revistas u otros medios de
difusión extranjeros, incurre en sanción de privación de libertad de dos a
cinco años o multa de mil a tres mil cuotas o ambas.

2. La responsabilidad penal en los casos previstos en el apartado que
antecede será exigible a los que utilicen tales medios y no a los reporteros
extranjeros legalmente acreditados en el país, si fuese esa la vía empleada.

3. La sanción es de privación de libertad de tres a ocho años o multa de
tres mil a cinco mil cuotas o ambas si el hecho descrito en el apartado 1 se
realiza con ánimo de lucro o mediante dádiva, remuneración, recompensa o
promesa de cualquier ventaja o beneficio.

Artículo 8.1: El que perturbe el orden público con el propósito de cooperar
con los objetivos de la Ley "Helms-Burton", el bloqueo y la guerra económica
contra nuestro pueblo, encaminados a quebrantar el orden interno,
desestabilizar el país y liquidar al Estado Socialista y la independencia de
Cuba, incurre en sanción de privación de libertad de dos a cinco años o
multa de mil a tres mil cuotas o ambas.

2. El que, promueva, organice o incite a realizar las perturbaciones del
orden público a que se refiere el apartado anterior incurre en sanción de
privación de libertad de tres a ocho años o multa de tres mil a cinco mil
cuotas o ambas.

Artículo 9.1: El que, para favorecer los objetivos de la Ley "Helms-Burton",
el bloqueo y la guerra económica contra nuestro pueblo, encaminados a
quebrantar el orden interno, desestabilizar el país y liquidar al Estado
Socialista y la independencia de Cuba, realice cualquier acto dirigido a
impedir o perjudicar las relaciones económicas del Estado cubano, o de
entidades industriales, comerciales, financieras o de otra naturaleza,
nacionales o extranjeras, tanto estatales como privadas, incurre en sanción
de privación de libertad de siete a quince años o multa de tres mil a cinco
mil cuotas o ambas.

2. La sanción es de privación de libertad de ocho a veinte años cuando
concurra alguna de las circunstancias siguientes:

a) si en la realización del hecho se emplea violencia, intimidación,
chantaje u otro medio ilícito;
b) si el hecho se realiza con ánimo de lucro o mediante dádiva,
remuneración, recompensa o promesa de cualquier ventaja o beneficio;

c) si, como consecuencia del hecho, el Gobierno de Estados Unidos de
América, sus agencias o dependencias, adoptan medidas de represalias contra
entidades industriales, comerciales o financieras, cubanas o extranjeras, o
contra alguno de sus dirigentes y familiares.

Artículo 10: Incurre en sanción de privación de libertad de dos a cinco años
o multa de mil a tres mil cuotas o ambas, el que:

a) proponga o incite a otros, por cualquier medio o forma, a ejecutar alguno
de los delitos previstos en esta Ley;

b) se concierte con otras personas para la ejecución de alguno de los
delitos previstos en esta Ley.

Artículo 11: El que, para la realización de los hechos previstos en esta
Ley, directamente o mediante tercero, reciba, distribuya o participe en la
distribución de medios financieros, materiales o de otra índole, procedentes
del Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América, sus agencias, dependencias,
representantes, funcionarios o de entidades privadas, incurre en sanción de
privación de libertad de tres a ocho años o multa de mil a tres mil cuotas o
ambas.

Artículo 12: El que incurra en cualquiera de los delitos previstos en los
artículos anteriores con la cooperación de un tercer Estado que colabore a
los fines señalados con el Gobierno de Estados Unidos de América, será
acreedor a las sanciones establecidas.

DISPOSICIONES FINALES

PRIMERA: La Fiscalía General de la República, respecto a los delitos
previstos y sancionados en la presente Ley, ejerce la acción penal pública
en representación del Estado en correspondencia con el principio de
oportunidad, conforme a los intereses de la Nación.

SEGUNDA: Los Tribunales Provinciales Populares son competentes para conocer
de los delitos previstos en esta Ley.

TERCERA: Se derogan cuantas disposiciones legales o reglamentarias se
opongan a lo establecido en esta ley, que comenzará a regir desde la fecha
de su publicación en la Gaceta Oficial de la República.

DADA en la sala de sesiones de la Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular,

Palacio de las Convenciones, en la Ciudad de La Habana a los dieciséis días
del mes de febrero de mil novecientos noventa y nueve, "Año del 40
Aniversario del Triunfo de la Revolución".
Source: http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2003/cubacrackdown/law88_spa.html
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Post by KRP
Those "virulent" TV stations USED to beat the crap out of
Post by KRP
Chavez prior to 2003. They do NOT any more.
That's news to me. I hear they still do that all the time.
Yeah you guys hear all sorts of shit. And even sometimes what you hear
is true. Your problem Bob is that you seem to hear only what you want to
hear.
You are starting to see the same kind of desperate "flight" from Venezuela
that has been seen from Cuba etc.
Well as I recall the French President paid a recent visit to Chavez and
was complaining about press censorship. Chavez laughed and told him to
watch Ven TV for a whole morning.
(snip)

Castro even censors the "Telesur Channel in Cuba.
On freedom of expression see:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm

(snip)
Post by Bob
Indeed, from 1935-1956, Stalin actually SAVED 43 million lives (even
counting all he killed). Stalin doubled Russian life expectancy from
1918-1956
Moronic Bob.
Life expectancy increased everywhere between 1918 (year of the Spanish flue
that killed millions) and 1956.
Without Stalin it might have increased even more and the millions of people
he killed by starvation, execution, ... would not have died.

PL
KRP
2005-12-24 14:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Yeah you guys hear all sorts of shit. And even sometimes what you hear
is true. Your problem Bob is that you seem to hear only what you want to
hear.
You are starting to see the same kind of desperate "flight" from Venezuela
that has been seen from Cuba etc.
Well as I recall the French President paid a recent visit to Chavez and
was complaining about press censorship. Chavez laughed and told him to
watch Ven TV for a whole morning. The raw naked raging hatred, the lies,
the incitement, the treason, amazed Chirac. At noon he was laughing and he
told Chavez that Ven media was freer than French. So, based on that, I do
not believe this shit about "it's now illegal to criticize Hugo". I find
when I chase down the shit you gusanos say about the Great Hugo, over 90%
of it is crap.
And when was that Bob? 2001? Laws have changed.
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen...
CC is smart.
CC is a LIAR!
Post by Bob
How can you reconcile having to place barbed wire, walls and
Post by krp
gun towers to keep your people IN your "paradise?"
I believe you can leave?
You believe wrong. It is almost impossible.
Post by Bob
Post by krp
You seem NOT to find a problem with that and the FACT that people are
not clamoring to get IN to
your workers paradises...
People want to leave all those places and come to the US. You saw the
figures - 20-25% of the populations of Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala,
Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic are in the US. You have a very rich
country next to some very poor countries, so you will get massive
migration.
They don't come only for the money Bob. People live quite happily in
many poor countries they don't tend to flee.
Post by Bob
It seems NOT to register.. Did ya ever think there might be a reason?
Like you they ever allowed a REAL election Castro
Post by krp
would be out on his ass?
Who knows?
Having been there = having family there - I think I have a better clue
than you on that subject.
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Yes, Bob you indeed CAN fool the people in the
short run with phony promises. But eventually they catch on - EVERY
Communist government in the history of the world has KNOWN that, which is
why they ALL erect elaborate domestic intelligence agencies (like the CDR)
to terrorize the people and keep the yoke on them.
Not true. In Chile, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and states in Italy
and India, there was no such repression.
Nicuragia was a police state. As was Guatamala and Chilie with both left
and right wing dictatorships. Venezuela IS a police state PERIOD. In India
and Italy no Communist governments RUN anything. Just having elected a
Communist to office does NOT make it a communist empire.
Post by Bob
Communism has NO other
Post by krp
choice! The second you allow ANY free choice you're history.
Hugo is allowing free choice endlessly and his party has been elected 7
times, with no repression at all. Sandinists were elected in 1984, and
Allende in 1970 and Morales just now. Arbenz in 1954. Italian, French and
Indian Commies are all elected.
Post by krp
It is sad Bob, that only SPOILED Americans, Canadians and Europeans
hold
Post by krp
onto beliefs in Communism.
Do not think so. Appears 75% of Venezuela supports Communism, majority of
Bolivia, 30-40% in El Salvador and Guatemala, huge numbers in Colombia,
Nepal and Philippines.
Those with poor education,
Bwahahahaaha!
closed minds, limited
Post by krp
intelligence,
Bwahahahaahaha!
and overly compassionate people. Don't get me wrong,
Post by krp
compassion is good. Even understanding just how BAD American policy has been
in Latin America is a good thing. BUT - Communism isn't the answer Bob...
It's just a different problem. The difference between Batista and Castro?
Castro is worse! They both ruled as dictators. Right wing despot - left wing
despot and the people continue to suffer! Free health care, literacy are
worthless unless you can enjoy your life.
Well, I dunno. I support long life.
Otherwise you are merely fattening
Post by krp
up and keeping healthy the farm hands. Hell ALL slave owners knew that you
had to feed the slaves.
They were not known for prolonging longevity of them.
What good is literacy if all you can read is
Post by krp
BULLSHIT? What good is anything if you are not FREE?
Life is worthwhile, "free" or not. That's just my opinion. I regard
"freedom to live" "freedom to survive" "freedom to live long" as the
ULTIMATE freedoms, which capitalism does not value one bit. Castro and
other Commies place these values in the forefront, which makes them major
humanists.
Indeed, from 1935-1956, Stalin actually SAVED 43 million lives (even
counting all he killed). Stalin doubled Russian life expectancy from
1918-1956, the greatest such achievement ever achieved by any regime at
the time.
1935-1940: Stalin saved 2 million lives per year
1945-1956: Stalin saved 3 million lives per year
That's including those he killed!
Then, in a similar period, Mao did the same thing. Doubled the life
expectancy. I need to work up the Chinese figures.
Bob
2005-12-24 17:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Yeah you guys hear all sorts of shit. And even sometimes what you hear
is true. Your problem Bob is that you seem to hear only what you want to
hear.
You are starting to see the same kind of desperate "flight" from Venezuela
that has been seen from Cuba etc.
Well as I recall the French President paid a recent visit to Chavez and
was complaining about press censorship. Chavez laughed and told him to
watch Ven TV for a whole morning. The raw naked raging hatred, the lies,
the incitement, the treason, amazed Chirac. At noon he was laughing and he
told Chavez that Ven media was freer than French. So, based on that, I do
not believe this shit about "it's now illegal to criticize Hugo". I find
when I chase down the shit you gusanos say about the Great Hugo, over 90%
of it is crap.
And when was that Bob? 2001? Laws have changed.
May 2005. 7 months ago.

http://www.spainherald.com/327.html


http://apostatewindbag.blogspot.com/2005/10/imperialists-in-ngo-drag-us-state.html

It is a twisted logic, however, as what are in fact popular and
government attempts to free the media from hard-right, corporate control
are portrayed as their inverse: attacks on the media. The very attempts
to expand the freedom of the press in Venezuela for RSF are crimes
against liberty and sufficient to warrant awarding Venezuela 90th place
in its Press Freedom Index.

The country's five largest television channels - Venevisión, Radio
Caracas Televisión (RCTV), Globovisión and CMT - are privately owned and
so vituperatively hostile to the Chavez government that they make even
Fox News look, well, fair and balanced, and moreover, nine of the ten
largest newspapers are opposed to the government.

Impartiality is a foreign concept to the television stations, who,
according to Nation journalist Naomi Klein, during the 2003 failed
'strike' by the managers and owners of the state petrol company,
broadcast an average of 700 pro-strike commercials a day. Further, found
Klein:


'[I]n the days leading up to the [failed] April coup, Venevisión,
RCTV, Globovisión and Televen replaced regular programming with
relentless anti-Chávez speeches, interrupted only for commercials
calling on viewers to take to the streets: "Not one step backward. Out!
Leave now!" The ads were sponsored by the oil industry, but the stations
carried them free, as "public During the strike, the country's
communications regulator and a local council for the rights of children
and youth in the town of Tachira attempted to use the courts to force
the TV stations to break their 24-hour coverage of the lock-out for at
least a few hours a day in order to show children's programming -
broadcasts which are mandated by the stations' licences. Nonetheless, in
RSF's cuckoo, inverted world, this is yet another example of state
intimidation of the media.

According to the makers of The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, an
award-winning documentary on the Venezuelan media's role in the abortive
coup, insults, false allegations and even calls for the overthrow of
Chavez were and continue to be common in the press and on TV. As the
filmmakers note, a month before the coup, the El Nacional newspaper
falsely and wackily reported that the Chavez government had entered into
a secret deal with Hizbollah and the Iranian government, allowing Iran
to build a military base in Venezuela, while the channels routinely
refer to government supporters as 'Taliban' and compare Chavez to
Hitler, Mussolini and Idi Amin.

In an era when Islamist militants who publish or preach 'enticement to
violence' in the UK can be deported from the country or imprisoned, it
is glisteningly remarkable that in Venezuela not a single journalist has
been jailed, and the TV stations have continued to broadcast their rabid
anti-government propaganda.

On a recent visit to Caracas, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez
Zapatero told Chavez that he had heard many criticisms in Spain of the
lack of press freedom in Venezuela, but after watching just a morning's
worth of the rivers of maniacal disinformation that passes for
television programming and having read the day's papers, he declared
that he had no doubt in his mind that there was 'full and total freedom
of speech' in Venezuela.

A former editor with CNN en Español, Andrés Izarra, interviewed by Naomi
Klein believes that because the four TV stations have undermined press
freedom to such an extent, they have forfeited their right to broadcast
and should have their licences revoked.

According to both Le Monde Diplomatique and Klein's Nation article, on
the night of the coup, the owner of Venevisión, Gustavo Cisneros, hosted
the meetings of the coup plotters at the station. The president of
Venezuela's broadcasting chamber was one of the signatories to the
decree dissolving the elected National Assembly - the negligee of
legality in which the plotters dressed their coup d'etat. The TV
networks celebrated the coup on air, but when the coup went awry, and
the poor of Caracas and sections of the military rose up returning
Chavez to power, the stations responded with a complete media black-out,
programming only light entertainment as if nothing had changed.

Truly, the coup was a media-military putsch, where the major media
players were not merely sympathetic to the coup, or even just
propagandised in its favour, but actively participated in and helped
co-ordinate the event.

It is in such a climate that reporters from these stations have come
under physical assault from the poor and working classes of Venezuela,
defending their president who has massively expanded the provision of
social services in the country. RSF's 2004 Venezuela report cites 62
physical assaults on such journalists. However, when one examines the
report, one finds that of the 62 attacks only one was by agents of the
state. The rest were by 'government supporters' or in one case, merely
'apparently Chavez supporters' (RSF is thus happy to take it on hearsay
that attacks are performed by certain actors without corroboration).
Furthermore, when one parses the list of attacks, one is struck by the
number of 'attacks' that are in fact merely journalists being 'insulted
and jostled'.

Indeed, in the most Orwellian of manoeuvres, when Venezuelans have taken
to the street to protest the media bias, RSF finds such actions
sufficient to include them in its list of assaults on media freedom. As
RSF itself admits, most of the assaults came from government supporters
during the strike, angry at the bias of the major media outlets, which,
says the RSF report, 'actively backed the opposition movement, sometimes
violating journalistic principles.' To be sure, many of the
demonstrators attacked the right-wing journalists with stones, and this
- or any form of violence towards journalists - is completely
unacceptable, no matter how biased the reporters, but it must be noted
that government supporters are not the same as the government, and that
as problematic as such a climate is, it pales in comparison to the
regular murder and imprisonment of journalists that occurs on a sadly
increasing basis in many other countries.

Since the coup, the stations have continued to operate, with no action
having been taken against their directors. What the government has done,
is introduce legislation that requires the stations adhere to norms of
'social responsibility', under which, media outlets that 'excus[e] or
advocat[e] disrespect for lawful institutions and authorities' are to be
penalised.'

However, this tame measure aimed at reining in the corporate-putschist
media barons is transformed by RSF into government harassment of the
'free' press.

This burlesque, where a reporters' defence organisation defends instead
coup-plotters,

"'What the government has done, is introduce legislation that requires
the stations adhere to norms of 'social responsibility', under which,
media outlets that 'excus[e] or advocat[e] disrespect for lawful
institutions and authorities' are to be penalised.'"

I assume this unenforced law is what you are so exercized about?
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen...
CC is smart.
CC is a LIAR!
Liars are often smart.
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Yes, Bob you indeed CAN fool the people in the
short run with phony promises. But eventually they catch on - EVERY
Communist government in the history of the world has KNOWN that, which is
why they ALL erect elaborate domestic intelligence agencies (like the CDR)
to terrorize the people and keep the yoke on them.
Not true. In Chile, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and states in Italy
and India, there was no such repression.
Nicuragia was a police state.
ROTF.

As was Guatamala and Chilie with both left
Post by KRP
and right wing dictatorships.
LOL.

Venezuela IS a police state PERIOD.

LMAO.

In India
Post by KRP
and Italy no Communist governments RUN anything.
Not true, Communists run the state of Kerala in India for decades and
same with a number of very large states in Italy, esp the northeast.
Also, they run a number of large Italian cities.

Just having elected a
Post by KRP
Communist to office does NOT make it a communist empire.
Once again, we return to your silly tautology.
PL
2005-12-24 16:11:12 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:dojcqv$bfc$***@pita.alt.net...
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen...
CC is smart.
but a liar as you yourself have seen with respect to the "13 de marzo"
incident, no?
A smart liar still is a liar.
Note: Dan used to attempt to reply to issues in the past but recently he has
been reduced to "propaganda" spewing.
His problem.
The inability to accept reality is not a sign of "being smart". It is at
best a sign of perverted intelligence.
Note that I said "at best".

PL
Bob
2005-12-24 17:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen...
CC is smart.
but a liar as you yourself have seen with respect to the "13 de marzo"
incident, no?
Ideologue, just like you and Ken. You all should get together for a beer.
Post by PL
A smart liar still is a liar.
Just like you all.
Post by PL
Note: Dan used to attempt to reply to issues in the past but recently he has
been reduced to "propaganda" spewing.
He does ok. Y'all do the same.
Post by PL
His problem.
The inability to accept reality is not a sign of "being smart". It is at
best a sign of perverted intelligence.
Y'all suffer from the same problem as comrade Dan.
PL
2005-12-24 17:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Post by krp
Bob you have seemed like a reasonably intelligent guy UNLIKE Comrade
Christensen...
CC is smart.
but a liar as you yourself have seen with respect to the "13 de marzo"
incident, no?
Ideologue, just like you and Ken. You all should get together for a beer.
Nope.
I post facts with all relevant proof.
Dan lies.
If that is an "ideologue" to you then I am no "ideologue".
Post by Bob
Post by PL
A smart liar still is a liar.
Just like you all.
I have posted lots of proof of Dan's lies.
Tell me where I lied according to you.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Note: Dan used to attempt to reply to issues in the past but recently he
has been reduced to "propaganda" spewing.
He does ok. Y'all do the same.
Nope.
Presenting facts is very different from spewing three tired lines of lying
propaganda over and over again.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
His problem.
The inability to accept reality is not a sign of "being smart". It is at
best a sign of perverted intelligence.
Y'all suffer from the same problem as comrade Dan.
Nope.
I deal with facts, not with lies as he does.
I genuinely support freedom for all.
You can't fail me on any of the above.
That sets comrade Dan and me (very far) apart.

PL
Bob
2005-12-22 01:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of the
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Morales is a hero.
krp
2005-12-22 12:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of the
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Morales is a hero.
Like Chavez and Fidel, eh Bob? Just shoot everyone who doesn't agree with
the RISEN MESSIAH!
Bob
2005-12-24 11:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a
revolution
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime
was
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir
aparent?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of
the
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Morales is a hero.
Like Chavez and Fidel, eh Bob?
Dunno. Not like either one yet.

Just shoot everyone who doesn't agree with
Post by Barry Schier
the RISEN MESSIAH!
Chavez doesn't kill a soul. Castro hardly does either anymore. The
killer states in the Americas are all capitalist.
KRP
2005-12-24 14:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Barry Schier
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a
revolution
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime
was
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir
aparent?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of
the
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Morales is a hero.
Like Chavez and Fidel, eh Bob?
Dunno. Not like either one yet.
Operative word Bob is "YET!!!"
Post by Bob
Just shoot everyone who doesn't agree with
Post by Barry Schier
the RISEN MESSIAH!
Chavez doesn't kill a soul. Castro hardly does either anymore. The killer
states in the Americas are all capitalist.
Bullshit. His goons gunned down hundreds. He has even imported Cuban
mercenaries to help "keep order" shooting down UNARMED protesters.

Castro's Cuba has been real good at shooting the
UNARMED.......................
Bob
2005-12-24 17:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by Barry Schier
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a
revolution
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime
was
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir
aparent?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of
the
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Morales is a hero.
Like Chavez and Fidel, eh Bob?
Dunno. Not like either one yet.
Operative word Bob is "YET!!!"
Post by Bob
Just shoot everyone who doesn't agree with
Post by Barry Schier
the RISEN MESSIAH!
Chavez doesn't kill a soul. Castro hardly does either anymore. The killer
states in the Americas are all capitalist.
Bullshit. His goons gunned down hundreds.
ROTF!

He has even imported Cuban
Post by KRP
mercenaries to help "keep order" shooting down UNARMED protesters.
LMFAO!
Post by KRP
Castro's Cuba has been real good at shooting the
UNARMED.......................
Sheesh. Yeah they killed a whole SIX of them in the last ELEVEN years.
That's like killing .5 persons per year. WOW KEN WOW. Castro is another
Hitler, huh? Snicker.
Crusader
2005-12-22 16:21:25 UTC
Permalink
He`s a power hungry little indian.
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba.
The Farmers and workers had LITTLE to do with the revolution.
Post by Barry Schier
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
Why leave off Bolivia Barry?
It's ok, Kenny, Che's heir apparent has just won in Bolivia!
Here I thought that Chavez (Fidel's mini-me) was that heir aparent?
No, go into Evo's office and you will see Che pictures all over all of the
walls. Ask him and he will tell you Che is his biggest hero.
Hugo says the SAME. Is it struggle here?
Post by KRP
Will he follow Chavez and make it a CRIME to criticize him?
Morales is a hero.
KRP
2005-12-22 17:56:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Crusader
He`s a power hungry little indian.
Just one more DICTATOR who has hoodwinked the people.
Bob
2005-12-24 11:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
He`s a power hungry little indian.
Just one more DICTATOR who has hoodwinked the people.
Morales is a dictator?! LOL!!!!!!

BTW, Merry Christmas, Ken. I hope you are feeling the Christmas good
cheer. Kinda hard to tell her in Political Arguments Central.
KRP
2005-12-24 14:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
He`s a power hungry little indian.
Just one more DICTATOR who has hoodwinked the people.
Morales is a dictator?! LOL!!!!!!
He hasn't even been sworn it so the operative word here is "YET!" Want
to bet how long it will take to become "El Presidente por vioda?"
Post by Bob
BTW, Merry Christmas, Ken. I hope you are feeling the Christmas good
cheer. Kinda hard to tell her in Political Arguments Central.
Yeah I know Bob. Merry CAPITALIST Christmas to you too! <snicker>
Bob
2005-12-24 16:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
He`s a power hungry little indian.
Just one more DICTATOR who has hoodwinked the people.
Morales is a dictator?! LOL!!!!!!
He hasn't even been sworn it so the operative word here is "YET!" Want
to bet how long it will take to become "El Presidente por vioda?"
Post by Bob
BTW, Merry Christmas, Ken. I hope you are feeling the Christmas good
cheer. Kinda hard to tell her in Political Arguments Central.
Yeah I know Bob. Merry CAPITALIST Christmas to you too! <snicker>
Hey, I run a business. C'mon. It's not like we make any money, though.
But I am registered with the county and have hired employees in the
past. As you can see, I am a capitalist. Not a very good one though.

You don't seem to be IN THE CHRISTMAS SPIRIT Ken. C'mon cheer up boy.
Bob
2005-12-24 16:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Crusader
He`s a power hungry little indian.
Just one more DICTATOR who has hoodwinked the people.
Morales is a dictator?! LOL!!!!!!
He hasn't even been sworn it so the operative word here is "YET!" Want
to bet how long it will take to become "El Presidente por vioda?"
Post by Bob
BTW, Merry Christmas, Ken. I hope you are feeling the Christmas good
cheer. Kinda hard to tell her in Political Arguments Central.
Yeah I know Bob. Merry CAPITALIST Christmas to you too! <snicker>
Damn it sure feels like one. Ouch. Am I tapped out moneywise or what?
Barry Schier
2005-12-20 03:03:57 UTC
Permalink
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood. It has been WASHINGTON that had
engineered either coups or invasions against almost reform-minded
government, e.g., replacing Iran's Mossadegh with the bloody Shah in
1953 to replacing Brazil's Goulart in 1964 with about 25 years of
U.S.-backed tyranny -- and that was just before I became a teenager or
politically aware. It is NOT " Communism [that] is ALWAYS imposed by
gunpoint," but CAPITALISM. Che Guevara learned a lesson while he was
in Guatemala when the U.S. government engineered a coup which overthrew
that country's democratically-elected president Arbenz in 1954 (and
replacing him with a series of regimes responsible for the deaths of
100,000 indigenous people in the next 3 decades): NO ONE can impose his
/ her will on an ARMED AND POLITICALLY CONSCIENTIOUS people. That's
why Che Guevara and others in the revolutionary Cuban leadership took
the initiative in arming the people after the triumph of the Cuban
Revolution; more than 1 MILLION people are in the Committees for the
Defense of the Revolution. (Salvador Allende had thought that his
country's military would uphold Chile's long tradition of democracy and
absence of coups and disregarded the advise of Fidel and others to arm
the people; the fatal results of faith in bourgeois democracy came in
the form of a bloody successful C.I.A.-engineered coup on September 11,
1973 which resulted in his death and 17 years of Pinochet's tyranny, of
which advocates of so-called "democracy" supported instead of opposed,
with the gusanos in the loudest wing of that cheering section.). In
Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, after a 1992 failed coup attempt against the
corrupt regime, was ELECTED President in 1998 through "OPEN elections
and freedom" -- and forces in alliance with the United States staged a
coup which ousted him. (See my commentary printed in the May 2002
issue of Change-Links, "Venezuela: Masses Undo CIA Coup," for the story
of the mass mobilizations that restored Chavez to power 2 days later.)
The victory at the polls of Boliivian presidential candidate Evo
Morales will NOT be respected by those who crow about democracy IF the
proposed reforms, still less much-needed more deeper and thoroughgoing
measures, are implemented by him and his party, Movement Towards
Socialism (MAS), Hay MAS y hay mas y mas hipocresia de las clases
dominantes,

-- Barry Schier
Bob
2005-12-20 10:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood. It has been WASHINGTON that had
engineered either coups or invasions against almost reform-minded
government, e.g., replacing Iran's Mossadegh with the bloody Shah in
1953 to replacing Brazil's Goulart in 1964 with about 25 years of
U.S.-backed tyranny -- and that was just before I became a teenager or
politically aware. It is NOT " Communism [that] is ALWAYS imposed by
gunpoint," but CAPITALISM.
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint, especially
in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards formations.

Che Guevara learned a lesson while he was
Post by Barry Schier
in Guatemala when the U.S. government engineered a coup which overthrew
that country's democratically-elected president Arbenz in 1954 (and
replacing him with a series of regimes responsible for the deaths of
100,000 indigenous people in the next 3 decades): NO ONE can impose his
/ her will on an ARMED AND POLITICALLY CONSCIENTIOUS people.
Well, they can. But they usually have to kill lots of people. A lot of
popular rebellions have been crushed by a genocidal state.

That's
Post by Barry Schier
why Che Guevara and others in the revolutionary Cuban leadership took
the initiative in arming the people after the triumph of the Cuban
Revolution; more than 1 MILLION people are in the Committees for the
Defense of the Revolution. (Salvador Allende had thought that his
country's military would uphold Chile's long tradition of democracy and
absence of coups and disregarded the advise of Fidel and others to arm
the people; the fatal results of faith in bourgeois democracy came in
the form of a bloody successful C.I.A.-engineered coup on September 11,
1973 which resulted in his death and 17 years of Pinochet's tyranny, of
which advocates of so-called "democracy" supported instead of opposed,
with the gusanos in the loudest wing of that cheering section.).
The experience of Allende, Ortega, Aristide and so many others leads me
to wonder if progressive change is really possible without the military
defeat of the army of the ruling class. Chavez is hanging on, but there
has already been 1 coup attempt, there is an armed contra movement, the
contras attempted to "make the economy scream", the usual capital flight
conundrum, etc.

In
Post by Barry Schier
Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, after a 1992 failed coup attempt against the
corrupt regime, was ELECTED President in 1998 through "OPEN elections
and freedom" -- and forces in alliance with the United States staged a
coup which ousted him. (See my commentary printed in the May 2002
issue of Change-Links, "Venezuela: Masses Undo CIA Coup," for the story
of the mass mobilizations that restored Chavez to power 2 days later.)
Right, just goes to show you that the US only supports democracy as long
as the right people get elected. Otherwise, there needs to be a coup or
invasion to "save the people from their own stupidity" in Kissinger's
famous words. The situation in Haiti is instructive. Aristide won the
last, completely fair, election, with *92 percent* of the vote! The
fascist/feudalist oligarchy boycotted the election because they knew
they would lose, then immediately started an armed insurgency against
the Democratic regime, all the while staging regular killing, violent
demos and other provocations.

There were some human rights abuses by Aristide, but during the reign of
Aristide, the *vast majority of abuses, including killings* were done by
the fascist contras! The US refused to give Aristide guns to defend
himself and directly supported the contra, who, as noted, had the
support of *8 fucking percent* of the population. Then the US itself
instituted a direct coup of Aristide, with US-govt supported mercenaries
invading his palace and threatening to kill him unless he left the country.

The US promptly replaced Aristide with the head of the contras and the
slaughter began. Less than 2 yrs later, the fascist oligarchs have
killed 3,000 innocent people. That is orders of magnitude more than were
killed by the Aristide regime. Also, it is probable that many of those
killed under Aristide were former Tonton Macoute death squad members who
were lynched in the streets by the people in arms with long memories.
Arguably, the Duvalierist killers deserved to be necklaced for their
massive crimes against the people.

Aristide was supposedly removed by the US for being a dictator and human
rights abuses. But Aristide was the most democratic president Haiti had
ever had, and the regime that violated human right the *least*! Aristide
was replaced by a *real dictator*, kept in power by rampaging death
squads whose human rights abuses vastly dwarf Aristide's. The US is
silent, and "socialist", "Leftist" regimes in the Americas have
committed *troops* to help the fascists stay in power and slaughter the
people!

I speak of a SELLOUT named Lula in Brazil and some "socialist" phony
asshole in Chile. The icing on the cake was that the UN ITSELF is now
occupying Haiti, and *helping the fascists slaughter the people*! With
this act, the UN has truly reached its nadir as it is now just an armed
appendage of imperialism. Based on the UN's new imperialist face, I
regard the Iraqi rebels' attack on the UN Building in Iraq to be legitimate.
Post by Barry Schier
The victory at the polls of Boliivian presidential candidate Evo
Morales will NOT be respected by those who crow about democracy IF the
proposed reforms, still less much-needed more deeper and thoroughgoing
measures, are implemented by him and his party, Movement Towards
Socialism (MAS), Hay MAS y hay mas y mas hipocresia de las clases
dominantes,
It's a very interesting situation. I hope he nationalizes the energy
industry. It's also interesting that the mestizos in Santa Cruz in the
east wish to secede from the nation and take the nation's energy wealth
with them, rather than share it with the Indian inferiors they so despise.
KRP
2005-12-21 18:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint, especially
in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a police
state and at gunpoint!
Bob
2005-12-22 01:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint, especially
in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a police
state and at gunpoint!
Really? What happened in Italy? In India? In France? In Venezuela? In
Nicaragua? In Chile? All those places were run by Communists and they
were/are all total democracies.>
Crusader
2005-12-22 16:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Bob pull your sorry little head out of your ass...
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint, especially
in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a police
state and at gunpoint!
Really? What happened in Italy? In India? In France? In Venezuela? In
Nicaragua? In Chile? All those places were run by Communists and they
were/are all total democracies.>
KRP
2005-12-22 17:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint, especially
in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a police
state and at gunpoint!
Really? What happened in Italy? In India? In France? In Venezuela? In
Nicaragua? In Chile? All those places were run by Communists and they
were/are all total democracies.>
Not much since Neither Italy, France, nor India were ever "COMMUNIST"
states! In the Latin states, yep TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATES!!
The Ortega brothers? Mini-me Hugo? ABSOLUTELY a dictator! PERIOD!
Bob
2005-12-24 12:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint, especially
in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a police
state and at gunpoint!
Really? What happened in Italy? In India? In France? In Venezuela? In
Nicaragua? In Chile? All those places were run by Communists and they
were/are all total democracies.>
Not much since Neither Italy, France, nor India were ever "COMMUNIST"
states!
Communists have won elections and RULED huge states, "counties", major
cities, etc. in all of those places. Communists have been running Kerala
for 25 years now.

In the Latin states, yep TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATES!!
Post by KRP
The Ortega brothers?
Democracy.

Mini-me Hugo? ABSOLUTELY a dictator! PERIOD!

Basically, a complete democracy.
PL
2005-12-24 12:11:47 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:dojdak$d7e$***@pita.alt.net...
(snip)
Post by Bob
Communists have won elections and RULED huge states, "counties", major
cities, etc. in all of those places. Communists have been running Kerala
for 25 years now.
Democratic communists that accept democracy and the rule of law you mean.
Those that do not expropriate all property.
Hardly "true communists", no?
Not the totalitarian Stalinist kind you defend.
That is why they can make some headway.

PL
Bob
2005-12-24 16:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Communists have won elections and RULED huge states, "counties", major
cities, etc. in all of those places. Communists have been running Kerala
for 25 years now.
Democratic communists that accept democracy and the rule of law you mean.
Right.
Post by PL
Those that do not expropriate all property.
No, they do not tend to do that.
Post by PL
Hardly "true communists", no?
That word has no meaning since 1990, you know? I'm inside the movement
and read Commie theoretical journals, I know.
Post by PL
Not the totalitarian Stalinist kind you defend.
I don't, really.
Post by PL
That is why they can make some headway.
Really, how did Stalin and Mao shock the world with their
record-breaking doubling of life expectancy in such a short period?
PL
2005-12-24 17:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by PL
(snip)
Post by Bob
Communists have won elections and RULED huge states, "counties", major
cities, etc. in all of those places. Communists have been running Kerala
for 25 years now.
Democratic communists that accept democracy and the rule of law you mean.
Right.
Post by PL
Those that do not expropriate all property.
No, they do not tend to do that.
In fact; they DON'T do that at ALL.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Hardly "true communists", no?
That word has no meaning since 1990, you know?
(snip)

IOt has a dark shadow like "Nazi" for more than 60 yaers.
Stalin killed more people than Hitler.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
Not the totalitarian Stalinist kind you defend.
I don't, really.
Get real.
You have been singing Stalin's praises in the most moronic ways.
Post by Bob
Post by PL
That is why they can make some headway.
Really, how did Stalin and Mao shock the world with their record-breaking
doubling of life expectancy in such a short period?
Get real.
Other counries achieved similar improvements without killing millions of
people as those two dictators did.
Yopu try to claim improvement resulting from a large number of factors
(invention on antibiotics, ...) for tow moronic dictators.
the fact is that without them lots more of people would have lived.

PL
KRP
2005-12-24 14:20:16 UTC
Permalink
"Bob" <***@bob.con> wrote in message news:dojdak$d7e$***@pita.alt.net...

.net...
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint,
especially in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards
formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a
police state and at gunpoint!
Really? What happened in Italy? In India? In France? In Venezuela? In
Nicaragua? In Chile? All those places were run by Communists and they
were/are all total democracies.>
Not much since Neither Italy, France, nor India were ever "COMMUNIST"
states!
Communists have won elections and RULED huge states, "counties", major
cities, etc. in all of those places. Communists have been running Kerala
for 25 years now.
A *SMALL* area in India does NOT - Bob - make all of India "Communist!"
That makes about a smuch sense as claiming that because the once mayor of
Milwaukee, Frank Zeidler, was a socialist, that that means that the United
States was socialist. (BTW - while Communists may HOLD OFFICE there, they
don't really RUN a "Communist State there.)
Nice try though. Btter than Comrade Dan does.+
Post by Bob
In the Latin states, yep TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATES!!
Post by KRP
The Ortega brothers?
Democracy.
HA HA HA! Democracy at the end of an AK-47!
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhhttttt!
Post by Bob
Mini-me Hugo? ABSOLUTELY a dictator! PERIOD!
Basically, a complete democracy.
HOSE SHIT! Like Cuba is a "democracy!"
Bob
2005-12-24 17:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
.net...
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Well, in many cases, it needs to be *maintained* at gunpoint,
especially in its more feudal, colonial, fascist and backwards
formations.
Bob Communism CANNOT exist and has NEVER existed except through a
police state and at gunpoint!
Really? What happened in Italy? In India? In France? In Venezuela? In
Nicaragua? In Chile? All those places were run by Communists and they
were/are all total democracies.>
Not much since Neither Italy, France, nor India were ever "COMMUNIST"
states!
Communists have won elections and RULED huge states, "counties", major
cities, etc. in all of those places. Communists have been running Kerala
for 25 years now.
A *SMALL* area in India does NOT - Bob - make all of India "Communist!"
Never said all India was.
Post by PL
That makes about a smuch sense as claiming that because the once mayor of
Milwaukee, Frank Zeidler, was a socialist, that that means that the United
States was socialist.
Actually this is a huge state as big as California with a population of
like 75 million but whatever.

(BTW - while Communists may HOLD OFFICE there, they
Post by PL
don't really RUN a "Communist State there.)
Now you are getting circular. First: Communism has to be enforced at
gunpoint! Then: Any Communists ruling democratically are not really
Commies. Therefore only dictaproles are really Commie, and of course
they need gunpoint enforcement. Duh. Thought up anymore TAUTOLOGIES
lately, Ken?
Post by PL
Nice try though. Btter than Comrade Dan does.+
Post by Bob
In the Latin states, yep TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATES!!
Post by KRP
The Ortega brothers?
Democracy.
HA HA HA! Democracy at the end of an AK-47!
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhhttttt!
Post by Bob
Mini-me Hugo? ABSOLUTELY a dictator! PERIOD!
Basically, a complete democracy.
HOSE SHIT! Like Cuba is a "democracy!"
Cuba is drastically worse. There is little democracy in Cuba. In Ven, it
thrives. Ven is freer than the USA.
KRP
2005-12-21 18:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood.
Capitalism can't hold a candle to Communism. The purges by Stalin BEFORE
1938 alone is more than 10 times all the "ALLEGED" bloody hands by world
capitalism alone. We don't even need to get to North Korea, China, or
Cambodia.

Communism's hands are far MORE bloody Barry. This is NOT a good propaganda
subject for you. Cut your poses.
Bob
2005-12-22 01:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood.
Capitalism can't hold a candle to Communism. The purges by Stalin BEFORE
1938 alone is more than 10 times all the "ALLEGED" bloody hands by world
capitalism alone.
Hard to say. Nationalist Chinese killed 10 million. Famines in China,
India and Russia killed millions.
KRP
2005-12-22 17:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood.
Capitalism can't hold a candle to Communism. The purges by Stalin BEFORE
1938 alone is more than 10 times all the "ALLEGED" bloody hands by world
capitalism alone.
Hard to say. Nationalist Chinese killed 10 million. Famines in China,
India and Russia killed millions.
Bobby Mao let over 40 million die in a planned famine alone. Do da name POL
POT mean anything to you?
Bob
2005-12-24 12:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood.
Capitalism can't hold a candle to Communism. The purges by Stalin BEFORE
1938 alone is more than 10 times all the "ALLEGED" bloody hands by world
capitalism alone.
Hard to say. Nationalist Chinese killed 10 million. Famines in China,
India and Russia killed millions.
Bobby Mao let over 40 million die in a planned famine alone.
That figure is not correct at all. However, 25 million may have died. It
was NOT planned. The Chinese were just idiots and there was no democracy
in the party. By the time things got out of hand, it was too late. It
wasn't really murder, it was more homicidal negligence and gross
stupidity and policy errors. Plus even when ppl saw what was going on,
they were afraid to say it cuz Mao only wanted good news and tended to
shoot messengers, kinda like Bush.

Do da name POL
Post by KRP
POT mean anything to you?
Yes he was a major killer. However, if you go to a Trotskyite website,
you will find that they utterly despise Mao and especially Pol Pot. The
Soviets also hated Pol Pot and even Mao for a long time. So, tarring all
Commies with the crimes of some Commies who Joe Comrade never even
supported is not right.
KRP
2005-12-24 14:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Post by Barry Schier
"Capitalism comes into this world dripping blood from every pore."
-- Karl Marx.
It has been the CAPITALIST CLASS that has drowned every popular
movement / uprising from the Paris Commune of 1871 to those which have
occurred during my lifetime in blood.
Capitalism can't hold a candle to Communism. The purges by Stalin
BEFORE 1938 alone is more than 10 times all the "ALLEGED" bloody hands
by world capitalism alone.
Hard to say. Nationalist Chinese killed 10 million. Famines in China,
India and Russia killed millions.
Bobby Mao let over 40 million die in a planned famine alone.
That figure is not correct at all. However, 25 million may have died. It
was NOT planned. The Chinese were just idiots and there was no democracy
in the party. By the time things got out of hand, it was too late. It
wasn't really murder, it was more homicidal negligence and gross stupidity
and policy errors. Plus even when ppl saw what was going on, they were
afraid to say it cuz Mao only wanted good news and tended to shoot
messengers, kinda like Bush.
No it was "planned" as the effected areas had shipped their food to
other areas. "Some must die so that others may live." The idea was to have
most of the country well fed to keep down protests from people seeing how
screwed up the scheme was. So one group was allowed to die. Twofer win. No
protests. The starving people couldn't protest because they were dead. The
others didn't protest because they were fed. Instead of everyone suffering a
bit, political shell game Bob. It was DELIBERRATE, and CALCULATED.
Post by Bob
Post by KRP
Do da name POL POT mean anything to you?
Yes he was a major killer. However, if you go to a Trotskyite website, you
will find that they utterly despise Mao and especially Pol Pot. The
Soviets also hated Pol Pot and even Mao for a long time. So, tarring all
Commies with the crimes of some Commies who Joe Comrade never even
supported is not right.
Bob that has been the history of ALL Communist governments. Castro's
government exceeded the executions of the Dictator Batista within 30 days of
coming to Havana. Since then he has executed more than 100 times as many as
his predecessor. And all this to a guy who SAID..... SAID -- we has opposed
to the death penalty. And Bob - this doesn't include the people ALLOWED to
die in prisons.

Come on - Bob - when you speak about the U.S. foreign policy being
fukked up - I agree with you. When you speak of right wing dictators being
bad, I am there with you. BUT as bad as they are - Communism is BY FAR the
worst! Wake up Comrade. You bought snake oil. Your Emperor has NO
clothing! NOW - let's find something better!
Observador
2005-12-19 03:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Validate the Freaking "Revolution" with Free and
open elections!!!
Otherwise its nothing but a deceitful
dictatorship, under a totalitarian marxist
dictator who, trechourously destroyed the ideals
of a democratic anti-batista revolution into a
totalitarian marxist, grab for power, alianating
the cuban people in the process.


On 18 Dec 2005 00:28:59 -0800, "Barry Schier"
Post by Barry Schier
Defend the Cuban Revolution
Preview of editorial to appear in The Militant Vol. 69/No. 50
December 26, 2005 issue
(http://www.themilitant.com)
January 1 marks 47 years since workers and farmers made a revolution
and took power in Cuba. For nearly five decades, the working people of
Cuba and their communist leadership have not only defended their state
power, but have placed it at the service of working people around the
world. That internationalist course is at the heart of how the Cuban
Revolution has been able to stand up to decades of U.S. assaults and
threats.
Thirty years ago, the Cuban government began sending thousands of
volunteer combatants to Angola to help defend that country's newly
won independence when it faced an invasion by the army of the apartheid
regime, then in power in South Africa. The white-minority regime was
backed by Washington and its client in the Congo, the Mobutu
dictatorship.
The 15-year struggle was marked by the definitive defeat of the
apartheid troops in the battle of Cuito Cuanavale in 1988. Cuban blood
has also been shed backing struggles against imperialist aggression
throughout Africa-and many other parts of the world. The Militant is
publishing articles and a recent speech by Cuban president Fidel Castro
to help explain the truth about that history, which is still being
told.
Today, tens of thousands of Cuban doctors, teachers, and other
volunteers are working in many countries in Africa, Latin America, and
Asia-and Cuba even offered to send doctors to the United States to
meet the needs of tens of thousands in the Gulf Coast after Hurricane
Katrina. From the Central African country of Equatorial Guinea to
Venezuela, Cuban medical volunteers are not only providing badly needed
health care, often in working-class neighborhoods and isolated rural
areas where other doctors will not go. Even more important, they are
training youth from those countries as doctors and other specialists to
strengthen the medical services there.
By contrast, the imperialist powers in Washington, London, and across
Europe continue to engage in the so-called "brain drain," enticing
doctors and other professionals throughout Africa, Asia, and Latin
America to leave their countries in hopes of securing higher
salaries-one more form of imperialist robbery.
How is it that thousands of Cuban volunteers serve abroad and provide
competent assistance, asking for nothing in return? It is Cuba's
socialist revolution that makes this possible. Cuba has a consistent
record of internationalism-from sending troops in 1963 to help defend
newly independent Algeria to its support for literacy and medical
programs in Venezuela today-a stance that has earned it the hatred
and fear of Washington and the U.S. billionaire families it represents.
Because of this record, there is every reason to believe that
revolutionary Cuba today would respond to any request to defend a
fellow nation's sovereignty and social gains in face of imperialist
threats.
The Cuban Revolution is a living example of what workers and farmers
can do when they are organized and take state power, ending capitalist
rule and building a society based on the needs of the vast majority.
Today, in face of a world of increasing economic devastation,
imperialist war, and capitalist brutality, the course taken by the
Cuban people points the road forward for workers and farmers in this
country and around the world.
We join with working people throughout the world in welcoming in the
New Year with a renewed commitment to defend the Cuban Revolution. End
the U.S. embargo! Abolish travel restrictions! Normalize relations with
Cuba!
PL
2005-12-19 14:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Defend the Cuban Revolution
The Cuban Revolution.
Much is said about Castro's (and the Cuban revolution's) "communist
credentials".

The facts are clear and simple: the Cuban revolution was overwhelmingly a
nationalist and anti-corruption movement. It was not a communist revolution
(as the quotes from Che and Castro below clearly show).The communists
(formerly allies of Batista) sided with Castro in his "coup" to remove all
other leaders of the revolution stealing the success of the ant-Batista
revolution. Many of the former anti-Batista movement took up arms again (in
vain) against Castro to defend their ideals in the "Escambrey" revolt. While
the Cuban regime has tried to "play down" this revolt one only has to visit
the "museum of the banditism" in Trinidad to see how widespread and forceful
this second effort to recoup the revolutionary gains was. In a determined
attempt to praise itself the Cuban government actually acknowledges the
extent of the anti-Castro revolt.



Cuba before the revolution:
Were the elements conducive to a communist revolution in place?
Cuba was the third developed nation in the Americas. In certain indicators
of development it beat European nations like Spain, Portugal and even
Belgium in the early 1950's.

see: http://www.state.gov/p/wha/ci/14776.htm

"Armando Hart, a member of Castro's innermost ruling group, made the
extremely significant observation that:
. . . it is certain that capitalism had attained high levels of
organization, efficiency and production that declined after the
Revolution. . . (Juventud Rebelde, November 2, 1969; quoted by Rene Dumont,
Is Cuba Socialist?)

Paul A. Baran, an ardent pro-Castroite in the equally ardent Monthly Review
pamphlet, Reflections on the Cuban Revolution (1961) substantiates what
every economist, as well as amateurs like Castro, has been saying:
...the Cuban Revolution was born with a silver spoon in its mouth. .

.the world renowned French agronomist, Rene Dumont, has estimated that if
properly cultivated as intensively as South China, Cuba could feed fifty
million people. . . the Cuban Revolution is spared the painful, but
ineluctable compulsion that has beset preceding socialist revolutions: the
necessity to force tightening of people's belts in order to lay the
foundations for a better tomorrow. . .(p. 23)

Theodore Draper quotes Anial Escalante, (before he was purged by Castro) one
of the leading communists, who admitted that:
...in reality, Cuba was not one of the countries with the lowest standard of
living of the masses in America, but on the contrary, one of the highest
standards of living, and it was here where the first great . . . democratic
social revolution of the continent burst forth. . . If the historical
development had been dictated by the false axiom [revolutions come first in
poorest countries] the revolution should have been first produced in Haiti,
Colombia or even Chile, countries of greater poverty for the masses than the
Cuba of 1958. . . (quoted in Draper's Castro's Revolution: Myths and
Realities; New York, 1962,
p. 22)


see: Anarchists Archive - Dolgoff
Sam Dolgoff books at Amazon.com



Castro himself admitted that there was no hunger in Cuba:



Cuba, the "Pearl of the Antilles," though by no means a paradise, was not,
as many believe, an economically backward country. Castro himself admitted
that while there was poverty, there was no economic crisis
and no hunger in Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin: The Rise
and Fall of Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972, pgs. 24, 25, 37)




Batista and the Communists.
Where were the communists during the Cuban revolution? If we believe Fidel
Castro not on the side of the revolution:

In the course of the guerrilla struggle in the Sierra Maestra mountains, he
(Castro) delivered another speech which, once again, stresses his distance
from the Communists:

"What right does Senor Batista have to speak of Communism? After all, in the
elections of 1940 he was the candidate of the Communist Party ... his
portrait hung next to Blas Roca's and Lazaro Pena's; and half a dozen
ministers and confidants of his are leading members of the CP."
H.M. Enzenburger, Raids and Reconstructions, London, 1976, p.200.

See: http://www.marxisme.dk/arkiv/binns/80-cucas.htm

A version of the facts confirmed in this (Marxist) source:


In November 1940, the communists supported Batista's candidates in the
elections to the Constituent Assembly. In return for their support, Batista
allowed the communists to organize and control the government sponsored
union, Cuban Confederation of Labor (CTC Confederacion de Trabajadores de
Cuba) The first Secretary General of the CTC was Lazaro Pena--who,
ironically, enough, held the same post in the Castro regime. In exchange for
these favors the communists guaranteed Batista labor peace. In line with the
Communist Party's "Popular Front Against Fascism" policy, the alliance of
the Communist Party with the Batista was officially consumated when the
Party joined the Batista government. The Communist Party leaders Carlos
Rafael Rodriguez and Juan Marinello (who now hold high posts in the Castro
government) became Ministers Without Portfolio in Batista's Cabinet. To
illustrate the intimate connections between the communists and Batista, we
quote from a letter of Batista to Blas Roca, Secretary of the Communist
Party:

June 13,1944
Dear Blas,
With respect to your letter which our mutual friend, Dr. Carlos Rafael
Rodriguez, Minister Without Portfolio, passed to me, I am happy to again
express my firm unshakeable confidence in the loyal cooperation the People's
Socialist Party [the then official name of the Communist Party of Cuba] its
leaders and members have given and continue to give myself and my
government. . .

Believe me, as always, Your very affectionate and cordial friend,
Fulgencio Batista


In the electoral campaign the Communist candidates won ten seats in the
Cuban parliament and more than a hundred posts in the Municipal councils.

In line with their pro-Batista policy the communists joined Batista in
condemning Fidel Castro's attack on the Moncada Barracks (July 1953 -- the
anniversary of the attack is a national holiday in Castro Cuba)
. . . the life of the People's Socialist Party (communist). . . has been to
combat . . . and unmask the putschists and adventurous activities of the
bourgeois opposition as being against the interests of the people. . .
(reported in Daily Worker, U.S organ of the Communist Party, August 10,
1953)
Throughout the Batista period the communists pursued two parallel policies:
overtly they criticized Batista and covertly they cooperated with him.

See:
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution/chapter6.html



From the International Socialist Review:



Cuba had been run by dictator Fulgencio Batista since 1934. His regime was
corrupt and brutal. Although fully supported by the U.S., Batista was hated
by everyone except for his immediate collaborators and hangers-on. In the
late 1950s, this regime had no true left opposition. Gangsters ran the
unions. The Communist Party (CP)-known at the time as the Popular Socialist
Party (PSP)-was, like other Communist Parties of the 1930s, a useful
instrument of Stalin's foreign policy. However, the PSP had decomposed far
more than the average CP. It was linked to the Batista regime to such an
extent that Castro could say,

What right does Señor Batista have to speak of Communism? After all, in the
elections of 1940 he was the candidate of the Communist Party.his portrait
hung next to [Communist leaders] Blas Roca's and Lazaro Peña's; and half a
dozen ministers and confidants of his are leading members of the CP.(10)


The opposition to Batista that existed in the cities was overwhelmingly
middle class, organized around the Instituciones Cívicas. Another component
of the opposition was the student movement-also middle-class oriented.
Although it would be a mistake to say that workers did not participate in
opposition activity, their participation was not independent. Instead of
putting forward their own class demands, workers were participants in a
movement that was united in its shared hatred of Batista's regime.
Castro's July 26th Movement was made up for the most part of intellectuals,
students, professionals and a limited number of peasants. Not only were its
members mostly middle class, but its politics were decidedly middle class,
too. It emphasized modest land reform and the development of Cuban
capitalism without the obstructions of big business or imperialism. The
guerrilla movement began its life in 1953 with an attack on the Moncada
Barracks. In 1956, it re-launched its guerrilla struggle when it took to the
Sierra Maestra mountains. The guerrilla strategy was one that explicitly
rejected workers as the main revolutionary force. Che Guevara-who later
became the worldwide symbol of guerrilla struggle-considered Cuban workers
to be complacent and bought off by the system. In fact, he considered the
cities an obstacle in the struggle:

It is more difficult to prepare guerrilla bands in those countries that have
undergone a concentration of population in great centers and have
developed light and medium industry.The ideological influence of the cities
inhibits the guerrilla struggle.11


In the first year of the revolution, Guevara explicitly denied its class
character:

"The Cuban revolution is not a class revolution, but a liberation movement
that has overthrown a dictatorial, tyrannical government."12

10 Quoted in H. M. Enzenburguer, Raids and Reconstructions: Essays on
Politics, Crime, and Culture (London: Pluto Press, 1976), p. 200.

11 Quoted in T. Cliff, Deflected Permanent Revolution (London:
Bookmarks,1986), pp. 14-15. Originally in C. Guevara, "Cuba: Exceptional
Case?"Monthly Review (NY), July/August 1961, pp. 65-66.

12 Che Guevara Speaks: Selected Speeches and Writings, G. Lavan ed. (New
York: Pathfinder, 1967), p. 13.

See: http://www.isreview.org/issues/11/cuba_crisis.shtml




Inside the Cuban Revolution
Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground.
By : Julia E. Sweig


Julia Sweig shatters the mythology surrounding the Cuban Revolution in a
compelling revisionist history that reconsiders the revolutionary roles of
Fidel Castro and Che Guevara and restores to a central position the
leadership of the Cuban urban underground, the Llano.
Granted unprecedented access to the classified records of Castro's 26th of
July Movement's underground operatives--the only scholar inside or outside
of Cuba allowed access to the complete collection in the Cuban Council of
State's Office of Historic Affairs--she details the ideological, political,
and strategic debates between Castro's mountain-based guerrilla movement and
the urban revolutionaries in Havana, Santiago, and other cities.

In a close study of the fifteen months from November 1956 to July 1958, when
the urban underground leadership was dominant, Sweig examines the debate
between the two groups over whether to wage guerrilla warfare in the
countryside or armed insurrection in the cities, and is the first to
document the extent of Castro's cooperation with the Llano. She unveils the
essential role of the urban underground, led by such figures as Frank País,
Armando Hart, Haydée Santamaria, Enrique Oltuski, and Faustino Pérez, in
controlling critical decisions on tactics, strategy, allocation of
resources, and
relations with opposition forces, political parties, Cuban exiles, even the
United States--contradicting the standard view of Castro as the primary
decision maker during the revolution.

In revealing the true relationship between Castro and the urban underground,
Sweig redefines the history of the Cuban Revolution, offering guideposts for
understanding Cuban politics in the 1960s and raising intriguing questions
for the future transition of power in Cuba.

See: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/SWEINS.html

See: http://www.cubaverdad.net/revolution.htm
TDC
2005-12-19 17:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Hola

No me haga reir.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Barry Schier"
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